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- [00:00]
Host
Alrighty.
- [00:00]
Interviewer
It has been a while since I have done an interview on the Simple Pen podcast here, and frankly, I was really eager to do an interview about a topic that I was exploring years and years ago. But maybe in 2025 it looks a little bit different. And that is the topic of men using Pinterest. So I invited my fellow colleague inside the educator program, Pinterest. We've been doing this beta program for the last six months. His name is Corbin White. And I thought, who better to talk about men using Pinterest than a man who is actually using Pinterest? He started on Pinterest in 2020. He grew significantly. He has learned a lot, and, well, I don't want to spoil it. I want him to tell you his story because I think it's actually really inspiring. Not only do we talk about his story, but we also go deep into what are the hurdles keeping people, specifically men, to, from using Pinterest. And the answer might not be what you think. So I'm excited for you to listen to this episode. And we reference the Men's Trends Report, which is something that Pinterest just released. So make sure you click down below in the description because we will leave links to not only Corbin and his website, as well as his Pinterest website, but we'll also be linking to the Men's Trends Report. All right, with that, let's talk about where the men are on Pinterest. Corbin, welcome to the Simple Pen podcast.
- [01:45]
Corbin White
It's so great to be here with you.
- [01:47]
Interviewer
Yeah, I'm excited to dive into this topic because we have heard forever that men are the fastest growing demographic on Pinterest, and now it's Gen Z. And I feel like we've been hearing that language since, like 2017, 2018. And I don't know about you, but I kind of stood back and I surveyed kind of what was happening in the business online world space, but also what was happening in my personal life. Were the men in my life using Pinterest? And so I want to talk about that today and kind of your journey. So let's start with your business. Like, when did you start operating in the online space? And then tell me when Pinterest kind of came into that fold.
- [02:28]
Corbin White
Yeah, great question. So as far as when I started operating on the online space and when I started using Pinterest, they actually started together. Pinterest was the first platform that I ever did anything online for. And I'll explain why in a minute. But to, I guess, go back a little bit, it all started in 2020 during COVID So that was the first time that I personally downloaded Pinterest interest. So I haven't been on it, you know, a crazy amount compared to people like yourselves or others that are, you know, been in the industry for, have a lot of really good experience. But 2020 is when I started exploring it and I downloaded it for, for one reason. It's because me and my wife had just bought our first house and it was, it, it was a nice house, but it was, it was just white everywhere, so there was, there was nothing in there. And then as you know, a lot of people had the same thought during COVID There just was, wasn't a lot to do except for look at your walls and look at your house and like I want to remodel and those things. So it was during that time that I started to do some research on Pinterest and get ideas for things that I wanted to do with my house. So that's, that's why I downloaded initially. And as I was scrolling through Pinterest, I just found some of the things in there super helpful as I started to create projects. And it got to the point for me where another side note, I guess I was working full time just as an employee somewhere. I knew at one point that I wanted to make the jump to go build my own thing. And I knew at that time the, the date was, I know the exact date that I post on Pinterest because I was turning 27 and my, my, my birthday is on the 27th of September. So if you've heard of your golden year before, right, the year that you can't. So I, I, I remember, I distinctly remember it was, I started the projects doing DIY projects probably about a month before and it was September 27th. Actually it was the 28th. So it was the day, it was the day after. I was at the top of my stairs and it was like midnight. And I was just thinking like, if I don't post today, I will never do it because I think a lot of people are the same way. They just, they're, I get really, I get a lot of anxiety posting and I don't let people to see. And, and, and that is where Pinterest came into play. I felt like Pinterest was one of the, one of the few social media platforms that felt less toxic. Like, like you could post something and not, not have people judge you or things like that. And then also I didn't even want to when I first posted my first thing, I didn't want to show my face. And so I had been on Pinterest and. And I just wanted to help give back a little bit because I found so much value from scrolling it and I found so many good ideas and I started creating my boards and so I wanted to do some of the similar things. So I'll stop there. That's where. That's how I started to use Pinterest and where it kind of all came from.
- [05:07]
Interviewer
Well, I want to even step back a little bit further is when did you first even start to hear about Pinterest? Was it something where people in your lives were using it or was as were doing diy kind of all roads led you there?
- [05:21]
Corbin White
Yeah, yeah, I guess my. So my. My wife had used Pinterest for a while and I think everybody kind of knows that Pinterest is there and there is the kind of stereotype that it's like, oh, it's for, you know, like decorations and things like that and home improvement. Like there is like, a lot of people know that you can go there for home improvement ideas. So that's. I think the. So to answer your question, I don't know when I first heard about it, but I know that my wife had been using it and that's why, like, I downloaded it to kind of start getting some ideas. I think she might have shown me, like, oh, here's some things I found on Pinterest. And I was like, okay, I'll download it so I can do my own kind of research.
- [05:53]
Interviewer
Yeah. Did you. Were you one of those people that you would be on the app for hours kind of scrolling, saving. What was your initial, like, user behavior?
- [06:02]
Corbin White
Yeah, yeah, for, for sure. Because I became obsessed and I guess to scroll back a little bit, like, I did not know how to do home improvement projects. Now people watch things and they think that, like, I'd never like done power tools or things like that. But I became obsessed with it because I thought it was because I came obsessed with home improvement and things like that. So I was doom scrolling late at night with different ideas and kind of pinning, putting things in boards. I was building out a ton of boards for all different kind of topics. And that's where I started to realize how helpful boards can be. Because then I could simply go back and look at them where at the time, I don't even think Instagram. Instagram has like that little save button now. But I don't think they had that even at the time, if I remember. And there wasn't a good way to organize things so that's why I started using it. I started seeing like, okay, this can be really helpful. But yeah, it was, it was usually at night, like a couple hours, just pinning things that I wanted to build the next day, essentially.
- [06:55]
Interviewer
Very cool. And I like what you said about this. When you get anxiety about this idea of posting or what will people think, there's that freedom with Pinterest that they don't essentially even know who you are.
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Host
Right.
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Interviewer
Like you could be a faceless business and do all of this stuff and they wouldn't know who you were, which is pretty cool. I mean, I guess you could kind of do that on Instagram, but you need more of a face to face presence.
- [07:21]
Corbin White
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I definitely credit Pinterest for helping me build the social media muscle because if it wasn't for Pinterest, I don't think I would have had the, the, the guts to post on any of the other platforms. And so, yeah, definitely Pinterest is if, if you're, you're wanting to get started with that, I think Pinterest is a great way to start.
- [07:39]
Interviewer
Okay, so you're using Pinterest, but you're also kind of working full time. Then when did this transition to you making the leap into going a full time entrepreneur?
- [07:50]
Corbin White
Yeah, so it happened slowly and then all at once it kind of felt like, so 2020, I was working at a software company. I have a background in running paid ads, so I was helping that company run paid ads like Google Ads, Facebook ads and things like that. And I actually love that job. So that was one of the, like, I loved the job, but I knew that I wanted to do my own thing. So that was 2020, that I was working a part, working there full time. Sorry. And then in nights and weekends doing social media. So I started on Pinterest and then slowly got enough, enough guts to start posting on TikTok and then YouTube and then all those different ones. And so that was about two. After about two years of doing that, I had built up, I had built it up to a place where it was time to quit my job. The thing that pushed it over the edge is one, things were really stressful at work for a couple of weeks and I just got a brand deal with the Home Depot that was going to be a longer term brand deal that was going to last for at least like six months. So I was going to create multiple pieces of content with them. And then, so between those two things, like work was starting to get a lot more stressful. And then I Just got this awesome brand deal with the Home Depot. And so I was like, all right, I guess. So I went to my boss that weekend. I was like, I'm going to leave. And he, he asked me, he's like, what are you, what are you going to do? And, and some of my coworkers and people knew what I was building, but. And I told them and he was like, what? Really? Like, that's like, what do you mean, like what? So, yeah, that's kind of where it all all started. So it took about two years. And. And I'm sure you can relate to this as you're, you're with clients and things like that. Like, social media isn't something that you're going to do overnight and then be able to quit your job. Like, most of the time it's, it's a slow grind. And then all of a sudden it just ramps up really fast all out of nowhere.
- [09:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, it does. And you're like, okay, I guess it's go time. We're going to go like all in on this.
- [09:35]
Corbin White
Yeah.
- [09:36]
Interviewer
Okay, so let's pivot a little bit back to the idea of men using Pinterest. I think, like, where you're talking like the DIY space, the home improvement space. What did you. Were you paying attention at all during this time to men using Pinterest or, or paying attention to even, like, who is coming to your website, who's engaging with your content? Like, what was it that you were thinking about? Was it men coming to your website or was it just give me anybody and everybody, like, you know, I've got these brand deals I need to fulfill. Let's get them to our doorstep.
- [10:15]
Corbin White
Yeah. I was in the mindset of anybody and everybody kind of thing. But it's, it's funny, you definitely notice that it's the, the women that are watching the content a lot more, especially on Pinterest and things like. Because when I would go to family events and things like that, it would always be the women in my life that would be like, oh, I love watching your content on Pinterest, or I'm saving it. It would never, it never be. But men are also just, they don't talk about those kind of things. So it also could be that. But then when I look at my analytics as well, it definitely skews more towards female, especially compared to other platforms, like just being transparent, like on YouTube or tick tock, everything. Tick tock. What did skew more female as well? YouTube was a little bit more balanced, but Pinterest is is closer to like, 65 female and then the other. The rest being male on that. So, yeah, it's. It's definitely a little bit more of a gap on that. But when I was posting, to be honest, that was. That wasn't really what was on my mind. To answer your question. I was just. Yeah, give me anybody who is interested in DIY and home improvements stuff, and we'll kind of go from there.
- [11:18]
Host
Right.
- [11:19]
Interviewer
Okay, so let's talk about it for a little bit, like, your perspective, because another element now is you teach some of this. Like, you teach this. These marketing pieces, and especially your history with paid ads. You teach Pinterest ads. You teach Pinterest in general. You and I are on the educator program together. So actually talk about that a little bit before we get into kind of this marketing and men using Pinterest. When did that enter into the fold? Because this is a lot of growth in five years.
- [11:48]
Host
Right?
- [11:48]
Interviewer
Like, you're not only building on Pinterest, you're building your DIY business. And now you enter kind of the second business.
- [11:55]
Corbin White
Yeah, that's a great. So the. The home improvement. The DIY channel was first. That was, as I mentioned, during COVID And after about six or seven months of doing the DIY home improvement improvement projects, I started to realize two things. One, I got addicted to the dopamine of, like, having something go viral. And so I got over my fear of posting. And then the second thing I realized is that it takes a lot of time to build something, film that all the way through, and then have the payoff in the end. So in order to create content, I had to build projects. And I was running out of things to do inside of my house. And so I realized that, wait, I have another skill that I also possess that would allow me to create content more frequently. Because with the marketing stuff, all I would need to do is basically record my screen or I could create stuff more quickly. And that is where Zoco marketing kind of came from, where I started to teach people how to do marketing things similar or how to grow on Pinterest, how to run paid ads, a combination of all those different things. So that ended up being about six to eight months after the home improvement projects, which, to be honest with you, it has worked out, but I would not recommend anybody doing that because it gets overwhelming very quickly. I am one of those people that does have shiny object syndrome, so I do suffer from that. But, yeah, it has worked out so far, but it comes at a cost. So that's when all that Stuff, kind of. It kind of six to eight months later after the home improvement stuff.
- [13:26]
Interviewer
Yeah. I'll agree with you for sure. I think anytime you split your focus or you begin to market, it's like you have your DIY side, you're marketing to consumers.
- [13:35]
Host
Right.
- [13:35]
Interviewer
Business to consumer. And that's a totally different way of marketing. And you have different pain points. And then you switch this B2B business to business. Different pain points, different marketing flows, and different questions. And oftentimes that can be such a, like, strain on our brain and a strain on our. Like, which business gets more of the attention than the other.
- [13:59]
Host
Right.
- [14:00]
Interviewer
And it's. You do have great ideas. And I have somebody in a group call I was in the other day was talking about how they love to innovate, they love to think bigger, they love to try these different things. But sometimes it's okay to be boring for a little bit.
- [14:16]
Host
Right.
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Interviewer
And, like, because sometimes people just want a quick win.
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Host
Right.
- [14:21]
Interviewer
And it is difficult. So I actually appreciate that you called that out, because I don't think that's talked about enough. I think when somebody sees, you know, your story that you start in 2020, you grow this business, you get a great brand deal, you start a second business, you're growing that they go, oh, I want that too. But like you just said, that comes at a cost. It's not just a. You flip the switch, and it's amazing.
- [14:46]
Corbin White
Yeah. Especially if you're someone like me. That's not great at delegating.
- [14:50]
Interviewer
Yes. That's really tough.
- [14:52]
Corbin White
If you're really good at delegating, maybe you can do it better than I have. But it is good. But it's. It is how it is.
- [14:58]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's true. For sure. Okay. So in teaching people, what were some things that you started to discover about Pinterest that were really fun for you to pass on to them? You know, I like to tell people that there's. There's some kind of people who are. They love to gamify stuff.
- [15:14]
Host
Right.
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Interviewer
And they love to go deep. They want to get in the weeds. And then there's some other people who. They want to stay at the basic level. Like, they have a passion for beginners or they just want to get people through the door. And they're. They're very clear to see, like, oh, if I. I talk about Pinterest ads, people's eyes gloss over. But then you have those other groups of people that are like, I want all the information. So where do you find that you like to teach when it comes to Pinterest, do you like that beginner or the advanced kind of gamify get into the weeds?
- [15:44]
Corbin White
Yeah, I think when I first started creating content, it was definitely geared towards the beginners, and I think that gave me a little bit of an advantage because I was a beginner. Um, you. Like. So I, The. The. I was basically creating content on like, the problems or the questions that I would be having, like, day to day. And so I think that really resonated with people and it gave me a little bit of an edge in, in that regard, just because I was. It was like if you. If you're looking at your Pinterest skills from like 1 to 10. When I was creating content on Pinterest, my skill was a level three. And so I was trying to help people who are at a level one get to a level three. Um, and. And that's what it began with. And then I think now today I still do try to cater to anybody who's newer to Pinterest and wanting to grow their account. But I do also throw in more advanced tutorials, if you will. I feel like it's like a mix would probably be like two beginner tutorials for every one. Like more. More advanced, if you will, but not like crazy advanced. I'm still learning Pinterest every day. I feel like there's new updates as well. I'm sure you can relate to that. But that I would say that's probably like the. The mix of. Of content that. That I have.
- [16:54]
Interviewer
Okay, I want to ask this question before we talk about the Men's trends report, because I. There's so many things to talk about with your story that I think are super curious. I'm really curious about, but we'll kind of narrow it back to that. But before we do, I want to touch a little bit on Pinterest ads. With your experience being in Facebook and Google, how do you see Pinterest ads in the broader landscape of all the platforms? Because we've heard over the years either people love them or they hate them. Either people find them easy to use or they're not easy to use. And oftentimes people who come from a Facebook Google Ad world go into Pinterest ads and it's like, I don't even understand what this dashboard is like. This is overwhelming. Nothing makes sense. So because you have both experiences, tell me about that. Like, how do you see Pinterest ads? How did you approach them, and do you like them?
- [17:49]
Corbin White
Yeah, great. Great question. I will start off by saying that The Pinterest ads dashboard is not the same as it was three or four or five years ago. Some big updates that they have done that has made it better is they've been able to integrate to your catalog easier if you're running like e commerce ads. And they've improved the pixel like the code that you put on your website for tracking, things like that. So it has gotten better. Most companies that I work with to help with like they're writing Facebook ads and Pinterest ads being transparent with you. A lot of times the conversation is we've maxed out the potential on Facebook ads. Let's move over to Pinterest ads now. And just like with Pinterest, TikTok ads, Google Ads or any, any ad platform, like some companies do well and some, some don't. A general rule of thumb for Pinterest ads if it's going to work well is it's very similar to like an organic, like if the audience is there, like we kind of have an idea like which audiences are on Pinterest. If that kind of audience is there, then it could probably work out well. Like for example, I have a swimsuit company who just launched Pinterest ads just this last summer and they absolutely crushed it. Like they had a 14 return on ad spends. For those who don't know, that means for every dollar they were spending on Pinterest, they were getting $14 back. But it makes sense because it's a swimsuit company. Like swimsuits are really popular on Pinterest. Whereas if you were to go on, I can't think of something off top of my head, but something that, you know, people aren't just naturally searching for on Pinterest. It's probably not going to do as well. There is a little bit of clunkiness and a little bit of weird things inside of Pinterest, but it still is, it's still, it's still a good platform to tap into and to just give it a test. They've definitely changed some things around. I'd be curious what, what is your opinion on the, the ads?
- [19:31]
Interviewer
Yeah, very similar too. I would say that a lot of businesses you really have to go are my people searching for the product for anything that they're curious about as it relates to the product. You might not even have your business there yet, but if there's already searches happening, there's a fit for you. And I, I think it is complimentary.
- [19:53]
Host
Right?
- [19:54]
Interviewer
Like Facebook ad buyers and Google Ad buyers, meaning people who buy off of ads are so different than a Pinterest ad buyer. Because the ramp is so long, right. For some people, it's like 30 days from, like, save to purchase. And a lot of that is just because, well, it's what you did in the beginning, right, with your diy. You're saving a bunch of things to all your boards. You're categorizing your organizing, and then when you're ready for the project, you're going to make that decision. So if people have saved those ads along the way, then that buying decision comes so much later. So I, we have, you know, we have some. Some who specialize even in men's, you know, special attire.
- [20:36]
Host
Right.
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Interviewer
Which is a huge part because that goes along with weddings, it goes along with prom. It goes with these things that it's not just women searching for dresses or outfits they're going to wear, but it's men as well, planning for weddings. And that has been really cool. Cool for us to be able to support industries like that that they might say, well, Facebook and, you know, meta ads or Google, that's only where we can show up. And it's like, actually there's opportunity here and it might be a totally different type of buyer. And I think that's what I like to tell people when it comes to Pinterest ads is your buyer is not the same like they are. They might not know who you are. They might not know your brand. They might not even be using Facebook.
- [21:18]
Host
Right?
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Interviewer
I mean, I'll say Facebook, Instagram, I'll kind of pull them apart, right? Because a lot of people have left Facebook or a lot of people don't use it anymore. So, yeah, I agree. I think it's getting better. It's always fun to test things out and see what kind of return that you can get. That's been fun for us this last six months to be able to test how does it work for B2B? Can you grow your email list off that? Or are ads just B2C? Are they better? And I don't think it's either or. I think it's just different.
- [21:48]
Host
Right?
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Corbin White
So, yeah, very different strategies. But I like how you started off, like if you can find, like evaluating if there's search demand on Pinterest, I think is usually your green flag. Like, it's probably worth giving it a test. So smart.
- [22:01]
Interviewer
100%. Okay. So Pinterest came out with a men's trends report and I thought this was interesting. So I want to talk about it a little bit. There were kind of three, three buckets that they Kind of put as you know, they do these trends report, which actually I love and think are pretty cool where they will give a high level topic and then they will give these keywords that kind of are like embedded within that, that people are searching and they went on this route of holistic health and fitness, next gen tech and finance, gaming, fatherhood and life at home. So tell me what you think about just those broad groups as you hear about them at first. Does that resonate with you? And then do you see broadly men as a demographic engaging with gaming? Fatherhood. Gaming was an interesting one too. I was actually asked about that recently. I was like I, I don't know, but I don't know. What do you think about that?
- [23:00]
Corbin White
I Gaming, Gaming seems like a stretch to me to be honest. Fatherhood. And what was the first one that you'd mentioned?
- [23:06]
Interviewer
The health and fitness. Like the holistic health.
- [23:10]
Corbin White
Yeah, I could definitely see health and fitness. Um, I, I do have a board that I love the, to like save workouts and things like you know those, you know, seven minute workout for your leg or abs or whatever. So I could definitely see the, a trend going that way because Pinterest does make it really good to be able to organize boards into different workouts. So that one, yes. Gaming. I, I, maybe they're seeing growth there. But if you compare gaming to something like Twitch or, or you know, some of the other big players like it, it's going to be like maybe there are people there, but I just, I don't have a hard time seeing people like take what they call taking their clips from Twitch and posting on Pinterest. But maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not as close to that scene as possible. And then fatherhood, I, I could see that being a good trend. I think there is, it does seem like which is a good thing. There's like a better, there's a little bit of a trend on like dads that want to become better fathers. And so maybe that is something that's moving the right direction. So I would say two out of those, two out of those three makes sense. The, the workout one for sure because that's personally what I, I see there. Um, I am a dad, but I don't really use it for dad tips. But maybe I should. And the gaming, I, I, I do, I wouldn't see myself using it for gaming. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I do play the games of, I do play video games, but not to the extent. So maybe, maybe, maybe there, I don't know started.
- [24:29]
Interviewer
Yeah, no, it's an interesting one to, like, try to flesh out and debate through. The other one was finance and budgeting.
- [24:37]
Corbin White
Oh, finance and budgeting. I. I don't use it for that way, but I could. I could see why it would be useful, especially if you're wanting to find, like, more blogs about finance and stuff. So that one I could. I could certainly see.
- [24:50]
Interviewer
Okay, so let's build up a scenario here. Somebody's coming to you and they're asking for your feedback and opinion. They are. I'm gonna let you pick what industry you think would work and not work. I'm not gonna name one here, but let's say, like, it's a few male business owners and they're asking you the question, do I have. Is Pinterest right for me? Is this the place where I need. I. I'm doing all this other marketing or maybe they're like you and they're not. They're starting on Pinterest.
- [25:21]
Host
Right.
- [25:23]
Interviewer
What is going to be some things that you're gonna ask them to interrogate and to evaluate whether or not Pinterest is the right step for them.
- [25:30]
Corbin White
Yeah, I think whenever somebody does come to me with a question like that, the first thing that I am going to look at, similar to like what we talked about with the ads, is I'm going to the Pinterest search bar and I'm just looking for keywords related to that niche. So let's take the. The finance, for example. Like, I would. I would probably go. There's a couple different ways you can get. There's like a big list of related keywords. You can go to Google Ads and go to Ahrefs or whatever, you can get like a massive list of keywords. And then Pinterest doesn't give you a great way to get a bunch of keywords all at once, but you can manually go through and plug those in. And I would just start creating a spreadsheet of like, kind of roughly how much search volume is there? And then on top of that, I would then go and look. I would switch it over the tab. Instead of looking for keywords, I would look for profiles. And I want to see if there are other profiles in that niche. So, like for finance, for men, or different things like that. And if they're. There's a lot of search search demand, but there's no profiles. And that's probably like a great opportunity because there's me. There's not search demand, but no competition. But if there's search demand and there's profiles that are being successful, then that's also a green flag because you know that people are doing it and you can replicate that success. If there's no search demand and no profiles, then that's probably where it's like, oh, you should probably explore other avenues. So that's the exercise that I would probably do with them. And then the next thing that I would probably. The next question would be like, what is your content strategy? Like, how do you, how do you plan on actually reliably, consistently creating content? Like, how often you plan on pinning. How often. What are those pins gonna look like? Cause a lot of people, they just overlook that step. And I think that's probably what takes the most to kind of like strategize. As you know, you help a lot of people through this process. So, yeah, that would probably be. My next question is like, what's, what does the content breakdown look like?
- [27:11]
Interviewer
Is there any type of business that you would say, excluding the search, you know, looking at that first, that just on its value, you would say this is not a right fit for Pinterest. Like, it, it's just not going to work for you. So, you know, not trying to discourage anyone to use it, but being honest to say this is not a right fit.
- [27:34]
Corbin White
I, I would say like a, a specific B2B softwares are probably not going to be a good fit. And I say specific because if you have a B2B software that is like AI, like helps, like, like kind of more of a B2C, you know, consumer, it'll probably do well. But like I'm talking like I have a, I have a client that I help out that does like vendor payments for B2B companies. And so it's like, I hardly, I hardly even understand what it is there. So that, that's what comes to top of mind. I'm sure there are other examples there, but that's what comes top of mind to me.
- [28:09]
Interviewer
Well, and actually as you're saying that I had somebody come to me years ago, this was probably 2018, and he was targeting actually men in their 50s and 60s to go deep into finance. And so it's interesting to me now in like 2025 that we're talking about finance, but I, I don't know. That would be an interesting one because that looking at 50s and 60s now, like 50s is a lot of Gen X, right? So that's a, that's different than Boomer. Like, so I don't know. But then he, he said I want to do it because I want to see if I can get ahead of my competitors. I want to get a new. Like, I just want to try it. And I heavily discouraged him. There's. I mean, I will tell clients no all day long because I don't want to disappoint them and I don't want to waste their money. But he really wanted to try. And after three months, it was like, well, this is doing nothing because you're. They're not there yet. But I am curious what it would look like in 2025. So that's kind of like what my answer would have been before, but who knows now?
- [29:14]
Corbin White
Yeah, it is. I. I've. You'd have to test it, but I would. I would think the results might be similar. I think that's a good call. Like, anything that's skews towards that older demographic of. Of men. If it's targeting that, I don't know how. You never say never, but you can go through and test it. But. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's. That's a good way to kind of put it. Yeah.
- [29:33]
Interviewer
Yeah, for sure. Okay. You also had the opportunity to meet with Malik Jacard at a Pinterest, which was pretty cool. There was a group of you that went there and. Group of men to talk about this. And him and I were able to have a chat here on the podcast. I've seen his posts about just with his sons being so excited that he's on Pinterest, and one of his sons says that he uses it for sneakers and building, like, a sneaker collection. Tell me a little bit about that and kind of your conversation around this push to bring more men to Pinterest.
- [30:08]
Corbin White
Yeah, first of all, yeah, he is. He is. He's. He's one of those people that, like, when you talk with him, you feel confident about the. The future of things. Like, he is so down to earth and very, very smart guy and. Sorry, what was the original question? Like, what?
- [30:24]
Interviewer
No, it's okay. Just like, what you guys processed dialogue about, like, you know, really digging in. And I noticed, like, of the group, you were really the most active Pinterest user. I could be wrong about that, but I was. I was looking at profiles of everybody who attended. I was doing, you know, how sometimes you kind of creep on, like, what's happening socials. It was one of those things where I was looking at, okay, who's at this event? Like, I'm curious about the movement of men growing on Pinterest. I've always been curious about that, just because it does skew so heavily towards women. So as people are being invited to have a seat at the table to have this conversation about men growing on Pinterest, I was surprised a little bit to see that you were the most active user. Other people were more active on TikTok or other platforms. That's a like a side note, but I guess I would say in that how did that frame up kind of your discussion with you being such an active user and maybe the other one's not so much.
- [31:23]
Corbin White
Yeah. So I think the purpose of that is they wanted. They identified creators that were popular on other platforms and brought them in to kind of learn maybe why? Because they expressed interest in Pinterest and maybe figure out how they could help guide that. And then I was there kind of to help with that process, facilitate those things. And that was kind of the conversation that we had. Like, when came he kind of asked is like, well, what's kind of prevent, like, what would prevent you guys from posting more on Pinterest? Or what tools could we introduce that would allow you to easily take a lot of that content and even like post it back on Pinterest? Or what topics are you guys searching for on other social media platforms? Things like sneakers or things like that. 3D printing was brought up, stuff like that. So that was kind of the conversation that we, we had on that and it was really good. They even did a little exercise where they had us go through and save, like, find some sneakers that we wanted to save inside of our board and stuff. But that was the conversation that we had and it was really good. And one of the things that, that I took away from the conversation from the people that were on other social media platforms but weren't on the other ones is that they just didn't really, they honestly just didn't really cross their minds to be posting on Pinterest. And also there's, there is a little bit of a learning curve when posting on Pinterest. It's different than other social media platforms. Like, it's, it's a small thing. But the board aspect, it confuses people. Like, they don't understand the difference between a board. And like, sometimes we're just so used to it that until you talk to somebody that's logging into Pinterest for the first time and they're like, okay, how do I actually post this? Like, what is, what is this? Like, do I have to create a board first? Or how many of these do I need? And so that was another big takeaway. Is that like this. I don't think it's just a men thing, but like, if you're new to Pinterest, it's a little bit of a different posting experience compared to other platforms.
- [33:18]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's such a great highlight because I don't know why I'm thinking about this right now after 11 years of working with Pinterest.
- [33:26]
Host
But you're right.
- [33:27]
Interviewer
Like you post something on Instagram and you wait to see it posted. It's kind of like it goes to the feed and then you get to choose like, okay, I'm going to put it in stories or whatever. Whereas you're putting something on Pinterest and it's going to a board but you don't see it on the feed.
- [33:45]
Host
Right.
- [33:46]
Interviewer
And that is trippy. I didn't actually think about that because I, I have heard that from a lot of people who say I don't get it. Like, it feels so hard to me. And I think my response has always been, is so easy. Like it takes way less time. But when you have that hurdle in the way, it really does prevent people from using it because they, they think this is a heavy lift. It's, it's, where do boards fit in and what's, you know, sections and all this kind of stuff. That is a really awesome takeaway that you had.
- [34:22]
Corbin White
I think it all comes down to the boards. Which boards is the reason why Pinterest is successful in my opinion. So it's like it's a double edged board. Right. Because Pinterest is what, that's what separates people. But then they were confused on like whether they should actually put other people's pins inside their boards, whether they should wait to have it be public until they have enough pins inside of there. So I think that's what a lot of people worry about is like, oh, I don't want my profile to be public if I only have one board with one pin in it. Like, does that look bad? You know, so there were a lot of questions around boards and how they play into the ecosystem and if, if you're not an active user on Pinterest and searching on boards, it's a foreign world. And so I think that's one of the, like, it sounds really simple, but that was a big takeaway, you know, as. Because literally there was, there was a couple of people at the event that like they had downloaded Pinterest but they hadn't really posted on it before. So like that was the, the, the bottlenecks that they were hitting.
- [35:11]
Interviewer
Yes. That is so fascinating. So it might even Be not that it's men not choosing Pinterest because they think it skews so heavily to women. But men maybe not choosing Pinterest feels so different than what they're used to on a TikTok or an Instagram and how that workflow feels so easy to them. Whereas as you and I are looking at it, we go, wait, you're spending 25 hours a month on Instagram or TikTok, whereas you could spend eight hours a month on Pinterest. But they don't see it in those terms of like, time invested.
- [35:47]
Host
Right.
- [35:48]
Interviewer
They see it in terms of like, well, it's just easy. I just, I can post, I can get on, I can open up Instagram, I can do all these things, I open up Pinterest and I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's kind of like you're lost in a field.
- [36:00]
Corbin White
Yep. And, and going along with that point, comparing the two, another big thing that a lot of people in that group didn't, and I imagine a lot of people don't just in general is that Pinterest, one of the huge advantages as well is that yes, when you pin, you don't get that instant feedback a lot of times, but it has a chance to live on the platform for a very, like, I have pins that I've created years. I'm sure you're the same way like, that are still getting traction where on, with, with Instagram or TikTok or the other platforms. It's like you have a 24 to 72 hour window if you're lucky, and then it's gone. And so that was another thing that really resonated with the people that were a little bit newer is like, oh, you're saying I can take my content and it has the chance to, you know, get clicks and views months from now, as opposed to with TikTok, it kind of, there's a very, like, drops very, very quickly after that point.
- [36:44]
Interviewer
Totally. So let's camp on that. Like, as you're in that room thinking about what you either told people or what you would tell them to the men that listen to this podcast. And I, I would imagine there's not many of them that are not using Pinterest because this podcast is very specific to that. But I would say what would be, what you would tell people and what did you tell them about overcoming that first hurdle and just diving in? What, what would be your advice?
- [37:13]
Corbin White
Yeah, and yeah, this is the, this is what I would say and I Think we had a conversation very similar to this is like, honestly, my two favorites, arguably social media platforms are YouTube and Pinterest. And the biggest reason why I love those two is because of there's a healthy balance between discoverability and also shelf life. And what I mean by that is like, yes, maybe it's a little bit harder to get a video that goes absolutely like bonkers viral, but the audience that you develop on, on YouTube and Pinterest I think are a little bit more engaged and your content has the opportunity, like I said, to I look at like digital real estate every time I post on Pinterest or YouTube it's like I have the opportunity for that content to see views and get, and make money for the rest of the rest of my, I say the rest of my life. I mean that's, that's a little hyperbole. But whereas with TikTok and Pinterest or with, with TikTok and Instagram, it's great for getting like a short term boost. It's like put a little bit of fire on the gasoline, but you, you're gonna have to be constantly posting to, to, to get consistent results on those. So that's the biggest draw to me for a lot of people. And I would also challenge a lot of people. I'm like, well, there's more people on Pinterest than you probably realize. Like the fact that there's, they've over a half a million people on there and it's growing every month. So. And you never really know until you try. And it also gives you a huge advantage over the people that think that their audience isn't on there because you can tap into that and have less competition. So those are kind of the three drivers that I would kind of like nail home. If somebody's like, oh, I don't think it's good for me. I'd like, well, look at these three different things.
- [38:45]
Interviewer
And I'm curious what you would say as how long to invest in that because I think that is a common question with, you know, understanding the differences. But then how long do you get it? Because we know that Pinterest really isn't this dopamine hit platform, you know, very similar to YouTube. Like it is, it is not fun. Sometimes you're like, is anybody seeing what I'm doing? So what, what would you advise them as far as like, how long should you set your sights on choosing this as a marketing platform?
- [39:19]
Corbin White
Yeah, I mean if you're, if you're going to go the like organic route, like I would, I would say you need to commit to it for at least six months. At least in the best case scenario you at least try it for a year. That way you see Pinterest in every season. Because there is a lot of seasonality to Pinterest and especially if there's seasonality to your business, you're going to want to be able to post in every different season. So that would be my recommendation. And when I say six months to a year, a lot of people, they're like, no, I'm not committed to that. And if that's the case, then it's probably better that you don't, you know, you don't, don't commit those. Because I, I really do think for me, I started seeing results, like pretty consistent results probably like three months after, but it was still kind of hit and miss. And then by that six to like nine month mark, that's when I felt like I really started to build momentum. And then every time I'd post, whether it was like, because you know when you post and you think, you know it's going to be like a home run post and then you post in something like, oh, this is going to be like, okay, even the okay posts were getting traffic traction after that, like nine month mark. And that's when it does become fun because then you don't feel like you're just posting to the, the, the black hole, you know. Yeah, so totally that, so that, that would be my recommendation, like six months at least. But best, at least a year.
- [40:32]
Interviewer
Okay, I'm gonna do two kind of rapid fire questions before we kind of wrap it up. What was your last search on Pinterest?
- [40:42]
Corbin White
Do you remember? My last search for Pinterest was actually for a cooking recipe. Yeah, we were trying to cook, we were getting ready for like a barbecue thing and I wanted to create something new on the grill. So I looked for like a cooking recipe. I actually use Pinterest quite a bit for cooking recipes and stuff. So I have a board, like a secret board on my profile that's cooking things.
- [41:06]
Interviewer
So your favorite board on Pinterest that.
- [41:09]
Corbin White
You have my favorite board on Pinterest.
- [41:13]
Interviewer
Or one you use the most?
- [41:15]
Corbin White
It would probably be. This one is very niche. But I have a board that has ad inspiration on my Zoko Marketing Pinterest. It's a secret board, but I use that one a lot because I like to take like ad examples so that when I'm trying to create a new ad or whatever, I can, I have like a library to go and look at. So that's probably the one that I reference fairly often.
- [41:39]
Interviewer
Yeah, we do that too. I love, I love, love, love that Pinterest has secret boards in addition to public boards because it makes it so seamless to be able to save things to either or without having to like choose a setting to have it hidden or I mean, you have to choose that setting on the secret board to begin with, but then it's just done. Right, moving on.
- [42:01]
Corbin White
Yeah, and it keeps your niche a little bit because, like, for my home improvement product, if I had a board that was like home, like recipes and things like that, it just wouldn' really fit in. So. Yeah, I agree with you. The secret board is nice to have that.
- [42:11]
Interviewer
Yeah. Have you learned a lot between having the B2C profile and the B2B profile on Pinterest and the differences between the two?
- [42:19]
Corbin White
Oh, yeah, there's definitely a, there's like the niche matters. Like anybody who says elsewise, I think you know, it definitely the niche that you are in, it will be easier or harder. It doesn't mean you can't be successful on either one. But it's definitely easier to get eyeballs, clicks and things. On the home improvement profile versus a marketplace profile, the audience is just bigger. It is what it is. And so there, there are big differences between the two.
- [42:43]
Interviewer
And do you cross promote YouTube Pinterest? Do you lead your pins directly to short form video, to long form video?
- [42:51]
Corbin White
Yeah, great question. I do a lot of pins to YouTube channel, my YouTube channel or pins to blog posts. And I find that to be like, if, if you're trying to sell something or if you're doing like affiliate marketing or things like that, I find that's the most effective way to do it because the pins are great to give them that little bit of like, value. And then the, the longer form content on the back end can deliver like the one, two punch on that.
- [43:16]
Interviewer
Well, and I've talked about this before on the podcast, but I was reminded of it just now is that the whole reason I started doing this as well was a couple years ago a guy on LinkedIn messaged me and he was growing on Pinterest and on YouTube, he was in motocross and he was getting all this stuff from Pinterest that people were saving. And I was like, just blown away, number one by the topic. I'm like, are you for real? He's like, yeah, can I. It was like they were growing at the same time right along each other. So he was asking, can I cross promote them? Because Can I take my Pinterest audience and lead them to YouTube? And I was like, sure, let's try it. Like, go. I mean, I wasn't working with him, but I was saying, you should try it. Tell me how it goes, and then, like, I'll try it. So I guess there.
- [44:01]
Host
Right there.
- [44:02]
Interviewer
I forgot about that conversation with him. There's a demographic of men and women probably that are really into motocross that are on Pinterest.
- [44:10]
Corbin White
So that is. That is pretty crazy. I. I will tell you, between me and you, and I guess now your listeners I do have. I started a Pokemon channel with a couple of my buddies. Right now we're on YouTube and Instagram. But shortly, I will be testing to see if I can get a Pokemon audience from Pinterest. So I will let you know how that goes. That'll be interesting. Because similar with the gaming, like, I don't. I don't know what it's going to be like, but yeah, it's.
- [44:35]
Interviewer
It'll be interesting 100% you can. And this is why, because I know my daughter, who's 19, she is on Pinterest all day long, saving stuff like that, and she's still got a little bit of the Pokemon stuff. I mean, My kids are 19, 18, 16. Oh, yeah. They still geek out about it now. They're more into, like, the legacy cards, like, which ones are super valuable, which ones are so, you know, like, my kind of people.
- [44:58]
Host
Rare.
- [44:59]
Corbin White
Yes, exactly.
- [45:00]
Interviewer
They are so into it. And my daughter is in the car half the time playing Pokemon Go or something. She's like, I don't know.
- [45:07]
Corbin White
It's like, yeah, I know, I know, I know.
- [45:11]
Interviewer
You do know. And actually, I should. I. I will share this about myself as well. I was at a thrift store, and there was this T shirt that looks like a Pokemon. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool. I'm gonna be that cool mom and, like, buy this T shirt. And I get home, and I was like, look, you guys, I got, like, a Pokemon T shirt. And he started and dying laughing. They're like, that's not a Pokemon. That's just like, a anime. Like, I'm like, whatever. It's a super comfortable T shirt, and I'm going to wear it. And actually, I went to my eye appointment the next day, and the eye doctor was like, oh, is that a Pokemon? I'm like, no, you. You think it is, too. I'm not alone.
- [45:47]
Corbin White
Yeah. Yeah, you're not alone. There are a lot of things that look like Pokemon out there. So it is an easy mistake to make.
- [45:52]
Interviewer
They do. But I think that crowd associated especially, and I think this is a good point to end on, is that the younger Gen Z and even maybe Gen Alpha whose parents want them to be in a place that is not as toxic and more positive and it's. There's not as much like DMing happening or any of that. They are allowing them to use Pinterest to curate these really creative ideas or to find things or to express their styles in different ways. And I think with this new boards and I guess theme that Pinterest did of thrifting, so smart because my kids are thrifting all the time and having to fuse those together, it's like, okay, I can see men like embracing the platform even more as this generation moves through. So I think your Pokemon is going to be a huge success there.
- [46:43]
Corbin White
All right, well, wow, that gives me a little bit more. More juice to. To give it a try. Yeah.
- [46:47]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [46:47]
Corbin White
Once again, shiny objects. I shouldn't be like another channel, but I can help myself.
- [46:52]
Interviewer
It's true. Okay, so where can people go to connect with you?
- [46:57]
Corbin White
Yeah, so they can go to Zoco Marketing on like any of the socials on YouTube or anything like that. Or on the. The home improvement stuff. That's house to home diy. So either of those look those up and watch stuff there and then. Yeah, I'm not ready to announce the Pokemon that one. I'm a little bit more handy building up.
- [47:15]
Interviewer
But yeah, I'm sure we'll have some lurkers over there and we'll link all of that below in the show notes too. So, Corbin, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. Just processing through where men fit on the Pinterest platform and where we're going in the future. So thanks again.
- [47:30]
Corbin White
Thank you. It was a pleasure.