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- [00:00]
A
All right, I've got a really fun podcast slash video for you. Today we are going to be talking about brand deals, how to negotiate brand deals, and how to incorporate Pinterest into those brand deals, including talking about paid partnerships on the platform. My fellow colleague in the educator program at Pinterest, Kaya, was so gracious to come on and share her experience working with two different types of businesses and brand brand deals. One that is more B2C focused and one that is more B2B focused. And structuring your brand deals for those types of audiences is so different. So I just want you to listen to the tips that she has because throughout this episode we give you some great practical ideas that will really help you to understand how to work with brands from the moment they DM you to really solidifying the deal and some things you need to look for in your contract. We go through all of it. I also want to say this. If you are the type of person that has a lot of Pinterest questions and maybe you take those questions to Google or ChatGPT or Claude. My personal favorite, what I know is that the answers that they give you about Pinterest marketing, they're not super accurate. So if you are looking for a place where you can ask questions to get thoughtful responses, thoughtful discussion from a group of people who are actually doing Pinterest in real time, then I'd love for you to join our simple Pin Insiders group for just $9 a month. Plus I have a free live call within that where we answer questions for an hour once a month. And then we have a lot of things that I'm sharing. Maybe it's the latest updates on Pinterest or news that's come out or last minute news that we get that's outside of our education that I don't share in my email. So if you're looking for a resource where you can ask your questions about Pinterest and and get a real response that actually is true and accurate, you can click on the link below to join Simple Pen Insiders right now for just $9 a month. Okay, let's dive into my conversation with Kaya. I know for those of you that have been really looking to either get into brand deals on a deeper level, this will be great for you. And those of you that maybe have wondered what does a brand deal even look like, Kaya is going to help enlighten you and you're going to have a lot of takeaways. Alrighty, let's dive in. Kaya, welcome to The Simple Pin podcast.
- [02:30]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [02:33]
A
I am so delighted to chat with you. You and I had the privilege and the honor of being on the educator program with Pinterest and we learned so much. And I think one of the big advantages I would say for me is that I was able to see what these different creators, business owners were doing as it related to Pinterest and even what you were teaching. And I found your whole brand, your work, fascinating because it was around this whole idea of working with brands. And so I'd love for you to share a little bit about how you got started, kind of what really led to your passion of doing brand work, I guess.
- [03:12]
B
Yeah, well, I think I did start in a very traditional brand deal, Silo. So most of my work was originally on Instagram and that's where brands were coming. They're pitching me for Instagram work. But rewinding back a little bit further, I actually started my content creating journey as most Pinners do as a blogger. And so I always loved the like, the strategy that goes into blogging, the like, the work that you have to do to really understand your audience and you know, the keyword research, the different intents that an audience might have at different stages of their journey. So that was always kind of in the back of my head. Even when brands were approach approaching me on Instagram for work and for a bit of background context too. I started primarily in the hair care and beauty space. So that was my wheelhouse. As I was creating content on Instagram, I was still, for my personal brand, creating content on Pinterest. I was still blogging, I still had this ecosystem of content to ideally hit my own audience at different stages of their own content journey. And so naturally when I started to approach content creation as a bit more of a business, I was like, okay, it would be a really great opportunity for me to make a bit more money and also to help the brands, you know, get the most out of a campaign if I were to kind of pitch this multi platform campaign back at them. So as brands were coming to me saying, hey, what's your rate for one Instagram reel? I would respond saying, here's my rate. But I do have packages available to target your audience at different stages of their journey. We can add in a blog post, we can make Pinterest pins that tie back to that blog post, we can repurpose that Instagram content onto know other short form platforms. And more often than not, brands were either at the very baseline they were curious or the next Level, they were excited. So I think a lot of brands weren't used to, and still aren't, if we're being honest, used to creators coming back with a counter pitch. I think we're so. People are so understandably excited to even be noticed by a brand. So a brand says, hey, what's your rate for this? They're just giving that number. They're not asking any questions, which I think already is missing out on a lot of opportunity, even if you're just a creator on one platform. Like, you're missing out on the questions around usage rights and exclusivity. Like, you're already losing a lot of money on the table if you're just giving them a number and saying, okay, great. But I think the fact that I was not only saying, here's another package for more money, but that I was able to actually show them the benefit of this potential partnership, it made them trust me more as an actual partner rather than just like a talent in a sense that they're just. They have the idea already. They're just plugging an influencer in and calling it a day. It honestly, for me, it was, it was fun. And it is fun, like, I think, to be able to meet brands on that level. And it became a bit of a game. Like, no hard feelings if they say no, but I'm always going to try to, like, level up this partnership, level up this relationship. And yeah, as I continued it, there's a lot of education that goes into it and I think maybe we'll. We'll talk about it as this goes on. But I think you, you know, we know that brands, Pinterest isn't the first thing that think people think about. Like I said, they're thinking about Instagram usually or nowadays, like TikTok or something. So I did have to do a bit of the legwork of pitching them the value of Pinterest, telling them, like, this is a really great business proposition. If we're already making content, I'm making the assets. Like, why not pay a little bit more to have me repurpose this for Pinterest? So, yeah, it did take a lot of educating. But I can think back to my first one that was like, oh, it was such a win that I was like, hey, we're doing this every time. But I actually share it openly all the time. It was actually with CoverGirl and they wanted Instagram content. They were. I pitched them this package. They said, okay, maybe we won't do the blog post now, but let's try. Let's try Instagram or sorry, Pinterest content on top of the Instagram. And they loved the results. They, they realized how also intuitive it was for them to like boost content on the platform too or to use the little paid partnership. It wasn't this totally foreign concept to them. Pinterest, I find does a really good job of making it easy to do partnerships on Pinterest which people don't realize. And a couple months later they actually came back to me saying we want more Pinterest content specifically. So for me that was just so cool. That was like, that's my go to case study that they were cautious at first. It was a test, they loved it. And now Pinterest is part of their content strategy or their marketing strategy.
- [08:50]
A
Okay, I love that you brought up that partnership piece on Pinterest because I think there's been so much confusion around it. What does it mean? Why would you click paid partnership? So since you have experience with that, talk a little bit more about how that works because I really do think people find it. Either they get tagged in a partnership randomly are like, I don't know what this is or they don't even know how to use it. So talk about it a little bit.
- [09:14]
B
Yeah. So I mean from the creator perspective, it's so simple and it's so great for two reasons. So you're making the content. There's going to be that tab there, I can't remember the exact verbiage is paid partnership, but it's a little toggle and you click it on and it does actually allow you to select a brand if that brand is active on Pinterest. So you can either leave it blank just so that people know it's a paid partnership, or you can actually engage with the brand and tag them directly and they will get a notification and I do believe that they will have access on that side. So if you're a brand and you're getting tagged, it will give you the opportunity to engage with this creator more. So ideally, if you are tagging a brand as a paid partnership, it is actually a paid partnership. You're not just spamming a brand to try to get on their radar. Like that's not what this is for. It really should be if there's an actual some type of compensation, it actually could be even gifted. If you're doing an in kind partnership where somebody says I will give you this. If you post about it, you will have to still technically check off paid. But then on the brand side they get the benefit of some More insights into that pin. And I haven't seen the back end personally on the brand side, but I do believe it gives them the access to boost the content or use it as ads in their own marketing space. So the same way, I think that's kind of pretty standard across platforms now. Whereas if you tag a brand as a paid partnership, there is the potential for them to be able to then put money behind it, to use it as an ad or to reach a wider audience. And then I just want to put a little note also on the paid partnership, I think sometimes people are really hesitant to because they think, oh, it's going to squash their reach or there's all sorts of misconceptions around that that is not the case. I think people often think that it's like these platforms want you to pay to play. So if you tag pay partnership, they're going to suppress it so that then you have to pay to boost it. But Pinterest isn't doing that. It's just, it's a great extra tool to be able to use that content in additional ways. And it is also required by law to, to disclose that a partnership is paid. And I think that's just on top of it being a legal requirement. It's also a good, just honorable thing to do for your audience. It helps maintain that trust with them too.
- [12:00]
A
So, yeah, and I've seen that across most platforms, even on YouTube, if it's a paid partnership, you check it and it pops up as a, you know, little notification on the video. And I love that you gave the behind the scenes of how that works. It looks, it seems like it's really seamless. So let's kind of go back and walk through if you were, or you could even take the example of CoverGirl. If you were, had a brand come to you and they said, I would love you to try our hair care products. What's the first thing that goes through your mind with the. I just love you to try it because I think there's, there's a few ways that that could go. Especially if you're a new creator and you're very eager to work with brands. What advice would you give to somebody, having been there yourself at that first step? How would you respond?
- [12:49]
B
Oh, love this question. So I do think there is a very important discussion that is happening around doing, not doing things for exposure. While also on the far end of the other side, you also need to kind of either pay your dues or you need a bit of a. To prove yourself. However, if a Brand has noticed. A, noticed you, like they found you. Yeah, that's a big deal. B, they see the value of your opinion or your content because presumably, you know, hair products, if they just want you to try it, great, sure. But they're not just. Sometimes some brands will say, I just want feedback, you know, let us know. But presumably if you are a content creator, the unspoken part of that is they would like to see some type of content or reference to them on the Internet. So a, or one, they found you. Two, they found there is a benefit to them in this arrangement. They see a value in your content creation skills or your audience. So that is valuable to them no matter how small you might think you are. If they have found you and they've reached out, they already see your value and they are believing that they are going to get something positive out of this relationship. And so as a creator, I think we have to really remember that and that our time and our labor, our audience is not something we should be easily giving up for free. So I, for me personally, and what I would encourage a lot of creators to do is ask, first of all, ask questions. So my first response isn't necessarily right out the gates, like, I don't do things for free. Like, I hey, up here are my rates. I like to ask questions. So if a brand reaches out saying, try this hair care product, I would say, hey, like, thanks so much for thinking about me. Do you have any expectations, any posting expectations around this? I do have rates for content creation. I, I really like to start it out slow though. I want to understand what their expectations are. What their goals are, is another really good question. Then we can kind of get any of the dancing around out of the way, right? Like if they're like, oh, we actually would like for this to be, you know, we want a video out of this, we want to promote our product, then we can have it just a more honest conversation.
- [15:34]
A
And do you ask anything at this point about budget or anything like that? Or are you just simply going like, what is your goal? What are you looking for? Leave the money question for step two.
- [15:45]
B
So I think it's, I, it depends. So if they are truly saying, hey, we'd like to send you this project product to try it. I'm usually just going in with questions to feel it out because I have genuinely had people want to just send products because they're like, we'd love, especially smaller business businesses I do find are very much in the, like, we just want this in your hands. Like, no pressure. But I would actually say, more often than not, brands are saying, hey, we'd love for you to try this and share it with your audience. So usually if they're, if they're already being more forthcoming with that, I will state that I have a rate for content creation and will present some of the options that I could create content for. So I would say, hey, this looks great. I think it will align really well with my audience. Just so you know, I do have rates for content creation I create on Instagram. I am equipped to do search engine optimize posts on Fly.
- [16:55]
A
I know it's like a mouthful all the time, right?
- [16:57]
B
Is it really is. I can do search engine optimized blog posts for you. We could leverage Pinterest and a YouTube channel. And then I say, do you have a budget for content creation? So I like to give them a bit of a taste of like what we could do together. And then I'll say if ask them if they have a budget. And I actually do have about three emails that I just could have even used as a case study in this conversation that had some tech products that they wanted me to try. They actually had started out with the, the we have this great product. We'd love for you to try it and review it and share it with your audience. And I came back saying exactly that. I said, I have a rate for content creation. I didn't come out with numbers yet. I told them, I linked them to my YouTube channel, I linked them to my Pinterest accounts and my Instagram and gave a couple ideas of directions we could actually go for these platforms. And then ended with, do you have a budget for creating content? One brand came back and said they didn't, but they could maybe add me to an affiliate program that they were doing.
- [18:10]
A
So how do you feel about that?
- [18:12]
B
I personally actually said no in this case, but I full transparency. I think it was like $100 mic or something. And I was like, you know what, affiliate marketing is great, but creator or sorry, the audience usually isn't going to buy something the moment they see your video. Especially say in the tech space. People are doing a lot of research, they're watching a lot of videos, they're probably going to end up typing it in on Amazon or whatever by themselves. So it's not always likely that you get a direct conversion. And I actually said that with them. I was like, you know what? I think because of the way consumers shop, I don't actually see this being the compensation through affiliate marketing being adequate enough to cover my content. Creating costs. So unfortunately won't be able to go ahead. But then actually at the other tech brand responded back saying we actually would love to go in the direction of some bundled content creation or what are your rates? And then we could go ahead with that conversation in the more nuanced like, okay, do you want usage rights? Do you want exclusivity? How many videos are we doing? What platforms are we doing? But both those brands actually reached out only wanting to just give me something in exchange for a review and they both had completely different outcomes. I think a big thing is not being afraid to say no to the ones that aren't going to be compensating you the way you would like.
- [19:40]
A
Totally. And you know, one of the things we didn't establish in the beginning, which was probably really important, is talk about how different both of your brands are. I think you're going to get different types of pitches because you just said it, you know what works for the tech person and those tech pieces are going, it's going to have a different lift, you're going to have a different type of brand work because you know that that buyer is a. It's different type of intention. Where with your other beauty brand it might be people are more likely to try out or they're not as committed to it. But if we're going to buy a mic as you and I know, we have to be like, okay, I'm in on this and I'm committed to it and I've read reviews. So talk about your two different brands and how you approach those brand deals from the differences that those present.
- [20:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I have two digital footprints, so to speak. So Comfy Girl Curls is actually how I originally started, which is really solidified in that hair beauty space. I've done a bit of lifestyle deals on that brand before, but really people are coming there for the hair and the beauty. Those are the bulk of the brands I would work with. So skincare, hair care products, makeup. Whereas yeah, on my creating with Kaya, where I do much more creator education, my target audience is creating content creators. I tend to work with brands that are either software as a service, so brands that are, you know, they're going to be a subscription usually tied to that. It's a software that people want to use, whether it's a video editing program, photo editing, content scheduler apps, that sort of space, or of course tech to help support content creators. And yeah, I think that's a really good question because I think there's how I receive it, how My audience receives it and also the brand's own profit margins. And the way they see advertising is very different. In the beauty space, for example, a brand is so like PR packages. I think if anyone's even adjacently familiar with the beauty space, PR packages are very normal in this space. Which means that a brand is sending you a package of their latest maybe product launches, and they want you to just have it. Their marketing budget is very different. They're actually much more okay to send you something with just the hope that you might even try it or maybe even do a story shout out.
- [22:23]
A
They're like an unboxing kind of thing.
- [22:24]
B
Exactly. And then even if you don't like, I, I have products that still show up at my door and I haven't actually posted about the brand in like a year. But they don't really care. Like, the cost of their product. Product is so much less. Like you said, it's. They're like consumable. So somebody also is really likely to just go to the drugstore and say, oh, like, you know what, I might try this product sometimes. And it's not a huge financial lift for the buyer usually. And for them to just give you one to test, it's not. It doesn't hurt their bottom line as much. So in that space, I'm much more. The conversations will tend to be. I find they rarely offer affiliate marketing. Like, that's not something that they're countering with. And they are really okay to say, this is truly a gift. You don't have to post about it if you don't want to. And therefore, when they're like, the conversations around payment and brand deals are a little bit different, it's usually a gift or a page. Like, there's not this kind of middle ground where it's like, well, can you post it if we send you the lipstick? Because I mean, like, the content creation, the rates for creating the content are way more than the cost of the lipstick. So it's like, I'm not going to post something just for a free lipstick. Like, that's a lot of labor. Like, at that point, like, I can go buy the lipstick if I really want it. And then I get to escape the pressure of needing to have a whole content strategy around it. Right. Like, it's a very different space. And so usually in the beauty space, they want a lot of visuals. They want to see the, the product on people. People wanna see how it's used. And I actually find it's a lot easier to pitch Pinterest in that space because people are, they want to see, they're going to Pinterest and they wanna see like what this color looks like on somebody. They wanna put a whole look together. It's just, it's so easy to pitch Pinterest for beauty because it's so, it's a visual search engine. And if brands want that longevity of their product, like that's what I'm, that's what I'm pitching. Instagram is great for that immediate awareness that, you know, potential virality, but it's such a short lifespan. Whereas on Pinterest they can get in front of people not just searching their product, they can get in front of people searching say orange lipsticks or a whole makeup look that might feature that lipstick. Like there's so many different ways to leverage Pinterest to get their, their product in front of an audience.
- [25:22]
A
Yeah. Whereas tech, it's a little bit more difficult. Right. I almost see it as you're describing the two brands that you have. It's like really a B2C focus and a B2B focus. And B2B is a harder lift. On Pinterest it's. People don't always go there. They're much more apt to go to YouTube or to Google and they want to know more like they're the deep dive. Right. Talk about the microphone or talk about all these things. Whereas you're right with the lipstick, somebody is really willing to search orange lipstick, find something from CoverGirl that you've talked about in this content that you've created for them and then go to the store and buy it and it's. Or go online to buy it as well. So there's this different kind of way that it works. And I always think that's really important for people to understand is that Pinterest is so consumer facing. It doesn't mean that like the business to business stuff can't work there. But it is not going to be at all the same. Very similar to how your brand deals aren't the same or how they approach it. And I just think that layer has to be added in there for people to really feel like they're going to be successful with their brand deals, especially when it comes to Pinterest. So if the person listening is like, well, I have, I don't know, we were talking about your mic, your little like clip mic that you have on your shirt. It's like, that might not be the best thing to throw in Pinterest there, but you can definitely do something on Instagram and YouTube where you talk about it and you're much more likely to sell more.
- [26:51]
B
Yes, I think that's exactly it. I think I'm. My creating with Kaya Pinterest account is so much newer than my Comfy Girl Curls Beauty one. And I think I'm actually in the process of experimenting and learning and kind of figuring out exactly that, like, how can I use this platform that I absolutely love to kind of marry this type of content. And right now I think it's, it's more. So I'm finding like a lot of the things I'm pinning are around like desk setup situations or people also really, like, really aesthetic, like every. There's lots of people searching, like how to be a content creator, like content creator aesthetics. So they do love, they do want to. There are people searching for mics and tools and stuff on Pinterest, but it's very different. A lot of flat lays are performing a lot better where they can see the mic and oh, look how cute the mic is in my style setup. And then always a white mic too, for some reason. Yes, always, always. And I think, like, actually it's really funny that you said that because one of the brands that I've been talking about is it's like a podcast type mic. And when I was thinking about Pinterest, I was like, oh, this could fit into an office desk setup type of Pinterest content. It might not be a, here's me reviewing and testing the sound type of video that can be saved for YouTube, but the aesthetic of it, the like providing inspiration, visual inspiration of how somebody wants their desk set up to look. They want their content creation studio to look like the mic can fit in there. So I think, yeah, it's about being a bit more creative that you can still promote other product types on Pinterest, but the way you are going to do it, the way you're going to pitch that like value to the brand is going to be so, so different. Yeah, absolutely.
- [28:55]
A
And I, I think in that as well, it's coming up with. Well, actually, as you were talking, what I was thinking, instead of coming up with, it's more you've had this opportunity to do trial and error. You probably look back and you go, oh my gosh, that first brand that pitched me in the tech space, I wish I would have done XY talk about that a little bit because I know there are creators right now that are looking to diversify their income. They're looking to go, where am I going to find all these people? You know, and and work with them. And I guess I just wonder, like, how can your early mistakes kind of benefit them and give them feedback as to what will work and not work?
- [29:37]
B
Yeah. I think the first thing I want to say is just start and not be hard on yourself. I think so many people get really caught up in the, like, what do I charge? Or how do I ask for money? And those are very real questions to stress over. I've absolutely been there. But I would say my mistake was actually fixating on those questions and those problems. And then you get stalled out and you never even do anything. Like, I've had lots of brand deals at the start that I took. I said yes for, like, either abysmal, really, really, really low payment, or I said yes to doing something in exchange for a product. I've. I'm not going to sit here and say, like, I've never done that. I still do that every so often. Like, if the product is also like my camera, that's like a $3,000 camera that I did on an exchange deal and worth it. Right? Like, so I think you have to evaluate that for yourself. But I also, like, you're always going to do something. I think on the other side, you're like, oh, I regret that. But then you use that to bring to your next negotiation. And I think sometimes people try to skip that and they want everything to be perfect. They want to get the best money out of it, they want the deal to be the best. And then they skip all of those learning stages because what I will tolerate in a deal is going to be very different from what somebody else will tolerate. But I do think, like, the early mistakes are really centered around, like a being too afraid to counter pitch. Something like thinking that they're not going to want to go through the whole thing. Like, the brand already has their idea, they don't want to hear from anything else. So my mistakes would be like, not even bothering to offer Pinterest up as an option or not even, you know, countering with usage rights. And for those who aren't familiar, like, if a brand wants to use your content as an ad and run, put money behind it, you should actually be getting additional compensation for that because they're getting ongoing benefits from it. And if exclusivity is another one, if they don't want you to work with competitors, that's inhibiting your potential to work with other brands, they should be paying extra for that. So there's been so many times where I think, oh, I'm just so lucky that they Noticed me. Or, like, things have been a little dry lately. Let me just take it for what it is. Or, like, let me not stir the pot. Let me not, like. And I will still backslide and do that even to this day. And I have to catch myself. But I think that's, that's where any of, like, the lessons and regrets come from. Like, you just have to do it. You just have to send the email, offer more. Like I said earlier, it actually does make you seem more business savvy in the end. Like, and that's something that they're more likely to work with and not be afraid of the. No. Like, so many brands have said no in the moment. And literally a year later, like, the payoff was so long, I thought it was dead and gone. A year later, they've come back and they're like, hey, we actually have a budget now. We remember you've talked about this, this and this. We'd like to move ahead with you on something paid. And that can be like, it, it's, it's tough in the moment because, you know, economy stuff, like, there's so much that we're like, let's just, let's just take it. Let's just do it. But yeah, yeah. That I think is, like, is a huge one.
- [33:20]
A
Yeah. Well, I mean, I totally appreciate you sharing that because I think one of the things that I've realized, especially when I'm in person with people at conferences where pitching brands is a really important thing, there's so much of a need for information as to what other people are doing, because there's always this mythical. They.
- [33:39]
B
Right.
- [33:39]
A
They're making tons of money and they're getting brand deals. And Kay is so amazing. She's getting XYZ and people are like, she's making a gazillion dollars. And you're like, I'm not. But I, I think that when you pull back the curtain and you share some of the stuff that you have today, it actually brings it to a level playing field that says everybody has opportunity. It's all in how you respond to the brand, all in how you put yourself out there, and all in how you learn from the mistakes that you've made in order to do better and be better and then to get even bigger and better brand deals. And I think that's just so important in our content creator industry that is struggling, that is trying to figure out where the money is moving. As we've had the shift with AI, where is the consumer going to get information? And I think brands are asking those questions too. Like, and they want to connect with you and go, okay, Kaya, you're connecting with your end user. How about we partner with you to figure out what this audience wants? And that is such a win win for both the brand and for you. Because then you can drill down and go, man, I did this campaign with CoverGirl and people loved it. Okay, we're going to do this again. Or I can use it as a case study because I really want to provide my audience with really great products.
- [35:01]
B
Something that we've touched on so briefly that I think is so important too, is about that experimenting and play on your own side. Because I think on the other hand, sometimes people, they make their Pinterest account, they make their social media account and they're like, okay, where are the brands? Like, let's, let's do it. Where's the money? But they haven't had the chance to create organic content that they can use as a case study to know what works on the platform, to know what their audience is looking for. And they suddenly just want the brand deal. But like you just said, like, the whole point of the deal is to tap into your audience and your skill set and your experience on these platforms. And if you don't have that, there's, why are we trying to be like, trying to make the most out of a brand? And like, how do I figure out how to charge and get the most out of them when it's not actually a mutually beneficial relationship? And that's not to say that there's this magical number that you're like, hey, when you hit this many followers or this many monthly views that, okay, now you can start charging. That's not what I'm saying, because I do get that question a lot. It's like, how did you know when to start charging brands? Because like I said, the moment they find you too, like, you know there's value there, they see value in you. But I think we, we have to be putting the work in organically. We have to know our audience. We have to be able to speak to, to them, speak to the brand. Like I said, as a business partner, where it's like, okay, if they come with one idea. Actually, another example, a brand came to me for those mics and they had three video ideas and they were all kind of great, but I was like, my audience is not going to resonate exactly with those points because they don't come to me for xyz. So here's how we can tweak the ideas so it's more authentic to my audience, more authentic to me. And again, that's about being a partner, not just like a talent that you. They've hired to read a skip a script or like just be the face of something.
- [37:14]
A
And how valuable is that brand too? Because they're, they want their campaign to be successful and they're coming from one starting point. So when you partner with them and you speak back to them, my audience isn't going to go for this. So let's do this. What an amazing gift that is to truly feel like they're actually partnering with somebody. Because I imagine there's a lot of people who would say, sure, I'll do this brand deal, I'll do your video. And then the brand will wonder why didn't it really get lift? And it was like, because that missing piece was the creator didn't tell them this isn't going to get lift. This is. And I will tell you, I, well, I'm imagining I haven't had to do this before, but I would say if I was in their shoes, hands down, I would work with that person over and over again because we are now both have a common purpose and we're in this together instead of just a transactional relationship. And I see that as ways that people can thrive big time if they show that collaboration with brands. And I just commend you for that. That's awesome. And not only because you're willing to work with the brands, but because you are caretaking for your audience. And I think there's a lot that's missed with people who are creating content. You can see through it every time. Right. I know you've seen it like, oh, well, this was just a paid partnership. Sure, I'm kind of curious, but then I move on. But when listen to somebody who is working as an ad partner, but they really, truly like the product or they connect the dots to other things that they've created in their brand. I am way more likely to listen because I'm like, oh, this resonates with you. You aren't just trying to sell me a curliner like you actually use it, you know?
- [38:53]
B
Yeah, actually on that point too, something that I have begun doing more of in like the pitching or counter pitching process has been tying a bit to that authenticity because I think the audience is very exhausted by brand deals and paid partnerships and being sold something right, left and center. And I think like you said, like people can sense it right away. Everyone's radar is really up. They're really quick to call People, sellouts and all sorts of things. So what I've begun doing more of in this pitching conversation or negotiating conversation is like, let's make this a, like a package deal, but also at least three rounds of content if we can. So it's not to my audience, a one and done. Okay, she took, she got the check. Now she moved on to something else. But like, let's make this a relationship. Let's keep you top of mind with my audience and let's show that this is something that I'm like, is. I'm using. I'm actually using. It's not just for the, for the one and done. And I think brands, if they do have the budget, they don't always have the budget for that, but are more receptive to that idea because, again, it's beneficial to them. It's more authentic, it's more aligned. And it also saves some time from trying to find three different creators to do one video each or one. Whatever the. The deliverable is. Right?
- [40:26]
A
Yeah. When you can be a. I, I don't know if this is the right, like, wording. So I apologize in advance if somebody hears this, but it's like, if you're a delight to work with, that says a lot, right to where people are like, I will give you all these deals because not only are you collaborating with me, you're making sure I'm a right fit for your audience, and you're making sure that your content is a right fit for your audience. And I'm much more likely to put money towards that than I am those three different ones where I could have three drastically different outcomes. I could have three people who don't do anything. I could have three people who do great things. But if I have worked with somebody like you, it's a shoe and it's like 100%, let's do it. So I think that's a really good takeaway for people to say, be that content creator that from beginning to end. And I think this is what I've heard you say throughout the whole episode. Be collaborative. Be. Be like, you're going to enter in from the beginning, not this first step of like, re, you know, rejecting what your rates, going straight for the money. But to ask those questions that sets the tone to what are your goals? What are you looking for? Because you're not only evaluating whether or not they're right for you, you're right for them, or whatever you're saying. Is this a good fit for me? This is both of us making a decision instead of me just making the decision based on what type of paycheck I'm going to get.
- [41:52]
B
So true. Yeah.
- [41:53]
A
This has been such a delightful conversation. I love that you've just shared your story and where you're at. And I think there's so many inspiring things. I don't work with brands, but I have thought about it just from the perspective of what things here at Simplepen do we want to highlight that we love, that we want to share. And so I've, I've got little ideas along the way, but I would love for you to share where people can go to connect with you and follow what you're doing with both brands, brands. Because I think one of the most powerful things that especially podcast listeners can get is examples in real time. Because then it inspires them and they go, oh, I could do that. She's doing that. I didn't even think about that. So where they can they go to get inspiration from what you're doing?
- [42:36]
B
Oh, of course. So I would say Pinterest is at Comfy Girl Curls. That's where you can find me there. That's the hair, beauty, lifestyle style side of things. And creating with Kaya pretty much everywhere right now is where you can find me a very new Pinterest account where you'll see all the experimentations. But if you want more of the, the understanding of the brand deal side of things, how I'm navigating that YouTube right now is where I'm spending the most time.
- [43:07]
A
I love it. Yes. Go follow her YouTube. I've watched a few. They're super helpful. So we will have all those links down below in the description and I hope some people come ask some great questions. So thanks so much, Kaya. We really appreciate it.
- [43:19]
B
Thanks for having me.