B (2:09)

Right.

A (2:09)

And she's right. She has put a tremendous amount of thought into this stuff over the years. She, as I said, she teaches relational skills, which to me, what they look like, at least in this conversation, I'D say the most important one is the skill of repair, which I don't think that we as Westerners, we as individualists, I don't think that's something we really know how to do or do very well. Like, what does repair look like? It looks. It's not just an apology. It's something more than that. And we'll get into that in the interview later.

B (2:44)

If this was a book. If this was a book, how would it be positioned? You know.

A (2:48)

Yeah.

B (2:48)

Toward people that don't know her work.

A (2:50)

I would say that this is a book. If it were a book for people who want to really practice community, who want to, as she says, unlearn isolation and be in community with other people. And the thing that I think we are losing as Westerners, or maybe we never really had and is especially difficult now because there are not these groups that people used to have. Like I think we talked about in one of our episodes, the. And, yes, the Jane Borden episode. Even religious communities, we don't have the skills to have rupture and repair and effectively come back together post friction. And this is something that Christabel had to learn for herself and that she teaches very clearly and very eloquently. And it sounds simple and it can be, but it's just not something we talk about a lot.

B (3:44)

Yeah.

A (3:46)

So I gravitated toward her because she was very authentic and because I felt like she had a skill to teach that I know I not necessarily lack because I think I'm decent at some aspects of repair, but I was just like, I know that I could do better at this. Which is what Simplify is all about. Right. We want to help things that seem kind of diffuse feel a little bit easier and clearer. And I think she can do this.

B (4:10)

What was her personal story? I mean, before we play the conversation, she references it, but you two don't go into it. So what was her, like, journey that just. So people have this context?

A (4:22)

She talks about how she has ancestral and experiential knowledge to give. So she was raised a Jehovah's Witness, but she left the church at 28, and she basically just set about figuring out her life on her own. Yes. Where before she could fall back on scripture to tell her what to do, now she suddenly had no rubric to balance that out against. She leaned into the people around her being her being truthful and daring to be truthful to the people she was in a relationship with, regardless of what her conditioning told her, how she was supposed to present truth, which is the thing that she and I talk about a lot. And basically she worked through this. She went to therapy, she practiced these muscles, she did her reps, basically that she learned in therapy. And she did a ton of writing about it. She's been writing for years and years on the Internet.

B (5:14)

Yeah, for sure. So let's play the interview. Before we get into it, we should remind everybody to check the show notes. We have a newsletter now where Caitlin's been writing some really cool stuff and sharing, and we've been able to also share things you can't get in audio and more access to how Caitlin and I work and the authors that we're working with. So join up. Help us now that Simplify is independent. Keep growing. We really appreciate it. And for now, here is Caitlyn with Christabel Minto Galloway.

A (5:44)

Hi, Christabel. Thanks so much for joining me today.

C (5:47)

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Caitlin. This is such a pleasure.

A (5:51)

Oh, really, the pleasure is all mine. I've been so excited about this. You have a podcast, Rich Queer Aunties. You write a substack, but you are a relational skills teacher. But how do you like to identify yourself when you introduce yourself?

C (6:06)

Oh, my gosh, I love that you said relational skills teacher, not an expert. That rankles when that happens because ultimately I. I am a nurse, I'm a writer, I'm a storyteller, and I come to this work with ancestral knowledge and just experiential knowledge, not theory. And I think expert sometimes reads theory to me, but that's probably a personal bias. So more than anything else, I really love. I really love the idea of what does it look like to come home to self and therefore bring that self into relationships in a true. In a true way.

A (6:57)

So you teach relationality and you say you come to it with ancestral knowledge and your own background. What is. What does relationality mean to you? Just demystify this a little bit.

C (7:10)

Yeah, at the core of it, we're relational beings. As much as the modern world and technology and capitalism would have us convinced that we can function independent of others, nature, and the universe around us, I. The most tangible thing that comes up in my life as I overcome so much is the people that have helped me make that happen. And even when I was deep in the throes of, like, oh, therapy, it's just me and my therapist. I'm working on this stuff. It didn't get as good as it could until I brought it into my relationships. Until I talked about, you know, the things I was working on, I had to Bring those things into my relationships. And that's what solidified this idea for me that I am no one without the people I choose to relate to. And it was coming back home for me as someone who was raised in a collectivist society. And that had always felt really oppressive because of the colonial way it was practiced in my family and in my culture. So it was a reclamation that I can need people, I can be vulnerable, I can show up in these imperfect ways. And in doing that, I seek my. My liberation and the collective liberation. So that's really what relational, you know, relationality means to me.

A (9:14)

Yeah, I think it's such a. When you grow up in a system in which you are told, and you do a lot of writing about this very, very eloquently, that you. You have to perform a certain way in order to be okay and to retain love and affection and to be safe. What you don't learn is that safety comes from inside of you, and safety can't come from inside of you until you actually know who you are. And it sounds like that's something that you're really invested in teaching, too.

C (9:51)

Yeah, safety definitely comes from within. And as people serve as mirrors to us. I talk about this all the time, how they'll. Like, we don't see ourselves in many ways, just in a practical way. You have to look in a mirror to see yourself. You have to look in the camera to see yourself. You don't. But if you're in close partnership, for instance, someone is looking at you all the time. Right. In a way that you're not looking at yourself. So I found that, like, if I can figure out a way to harness that, even if it's just a tiny little bit of safety that I feel within me, how do I harness that to be in relationship with people that I find to be true mirrors? Because then I see even deeper. And in seeing deeper, that feeling of internal safety grows. So to your point, yes, there is an element of needing to find that tiny nugget of internal safety. But to deepen it, to broaden it, to practicalize it, I had to have mirrors that I felt were true. Show me what I couldn't see.

A (11:23)

I've heard you say this phrase now or this. This term, true mirror, a couple times, and it sounds like it's important. What. What does that mean to you, to be a true mirror?

C (11:35)

It means if I. If I'm to be a true mirror to someone, I can. I can answer from that perspective. Being a true mirror to someone, to me, means embodying the whole human experience, the way I come, the way I experience them, and daring to say it. So that might look like if I am angry, I would express that I'm angry. If I am happy, if I'm joyful, if I am grieving, be it as a result of our relationship dynamic or other things in the world, that I can express that without filtering and trust that they can see that it comes from a place of truth. So it's really as simple as that. For me, it means just daring to be truthful to the people I'm in relationship with.

A (12:44)

I think what you're. What you're talking about is a kind of. A kind of confident authenticity that you can show up and interact with the person across from you in a way that accurately reflects to them the impact that they are having on you or that the world is having on you. And I think that's a thing that we're taught not to do very early on in order to be pleasing or in order to get paid more or in order to be safe.

C (13:16)

It's really hard, and I think it's especially hard when we're dependent or we have real things at stake right where our survival is at stake. So for me, it is a place of privilege in many ways to be able to show up in that bold authenticity. But I also think that because I have prioritized that as my true north. Yeah, maybe I could be further along in my career if I wasn't so outspoken in meetings. And so I'm sure there are reasons, there are things that it's affected, but I'm not concerned with those things. There are relationships that have ended because of that. I'm not concerned because the alternative is not an option for me.

A (14:16)

Yeah, I. I just. I admire that you've got it. That's really. It's hard. And I think it. I think it also comes with. It comes with life experience. I was going to say it comes with age, but I guess it comes with life experience. So you could embody this at. When you're younger. I don't think I. I'm 40 now. I just turned 40 this year. And I don't think that I felt really comfortable to truly be myself and show up as a true mirror for people. I think I wanted to be a pleasing mirror for a long time, but I didn't really show up in the way that I feel to be true probably until five or six years ago. I think it took a lot of reps.

C (14:56)

It does take a lot of rep.

A (14:58)

I wanted to ask you what are the primary skills of relationality? I guess that they would. Would they be the primary skills of being a true mirror? Is it the same thing?

C (15:10)

Yeah, in many ways. The ability to repair ruptures. Right. The ability to set boundaries from a place of intersectional like love, love for self and the other. The. The commitment to interdependence. A big thing I teach is repairing ruptures.

A (15:34)

Yes. Because I really wanted to talk to you about this. Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to say that I think it is a way under taught skill. And when you see it being taught, it's kind of like surface level stuff about how to apologize the right way. But an apology is not repair and repair unless you take into account intersectionality and power dynamics. Dynamics. It's not real. So I think that your work is really around repair is really special.

C (16:04)

Yeah. Oh, I do find repair special. Like a really underutilized skill as you name and under taught as well. Because the systems that we live under benefit greatly when we don't learn how to repair. We are therefore scattered and dependent on empire to meet our needs because we do not have dependable, trustworthy, committed relationships. There is a lot of suspicion that breeds when we. Suspicion is bred, I think when we don't repair. So rupture, if we, if we agree on the basic premise that rupture is inevitable. It is woven into the very fabric of relationality. Right. What then does it say when we don't put in as much effort as we can in learning to repair ruptures? That's where my work starts. If this thing that is inevitable will exist in every relationship we ever have and exist within ourselves. Right. We have internal ruptures. So then I think it is. It is important to learn to sit with it, to grieve, grieve when that comes up and to repair. Repair does not equal reconciliation in and of itself. However, reconciliation cannot be reached without repair. And so that's my approach to teaching repair.

A (18:28)

What do you see people do after a rupture that looks like repair or they think is repair but isn't actually

C (18:36)

a big one is they ignore it. They don't name it explicitly. Yeah, they move on. We're good. They. It's just okay. And sometimes the repair, because the rupture is not like a big massive blow up. It can be something as simple as just like. Like you, you are kind of annoyed that they showed up or that they always show up 15 minutes late. You're just slightly annoyed with it. Right. You can probably Let that go and not talk about it. And that's what people think. But depending on that person's relationship to time, over time, it can grow into deep resentment.

A (19:24)

Oh, yes, Been there.

C (19:30)

So ignoring that, because that is a rupture, but ignoring that, not naming it, even if you need to name it in a playful way, whatever the way it is, like, you need to be firm about it. You need to be curious. It has to come up. So ignoring ruptures, small ones, big ones, is a big way. Yeah, it's a big way. People don't repair or. Or think they're repairing. They just don't want to raise, like, my relationship with that person. We never fight. It's great. We're just. We're just great. We're besties. Okay, so that's one big way. Another big way you mentioned earlier is apologizing. I think apologizing can be a big way that people attempt repair. But if they don't know what they're apologizing for, what their behavior was, do they even agree with the assessment that an apology is needed? Does that reflection happen? If that doesn't happen, which means you're coming to apologize to someone to soothe your nervous system, to keep things moving along, that is not repair.

A (21:03)

Mm. And I think what you said there is key. It's for you, it's not for them.

C (21:08)

Yes. You have to have a clear understanding. It doesn't mean you agree with them. In fact, you know, I love this approach to apologizing, where you can acknowledge someone's humanity, you can acknowledge someone's pain because you, too, have felt that pain, most likely. Right. So that's just an acknowledgement. And seeing someone, that's different from determining that, yes, you did do the thing that you're being told you did and that you agree that you did it and you don't want to do it again. So for an apology to be complete, you have to be clear. Do you even agree? And so if you don't agree, after you've acknowledged their humanity and their pain, how do you come to the table to say, I hear you and I don't agree? You know, it doesn't fit conventional ideas of how to render an apology, perhaps, but it's the truest. And so if you're. If you're going for true, that's what it's going to look like. So I think those are the two big ways. Ignoring and apologizing without. Without truth. Without truth.

A (22:38)

Yeah. I was just thinking that. That if you apologize without the reflection period and without Saying where you' actually coming from, then that. That automatically precludes you from being a true mirror because you're not showing up as yourself. Right?

C (22:55)

Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that like. So you can reflect and say, I don't agree. It doesn't mean that you not agreeing is the objective truth. Maybe you don't even reflect to yourself. To yourself. Well, so maybe you don't even know that this is something that you should work on or you might benefit from working on. And that too is true. So then the other person can make a determination about values alignment. Right. If they're adamant that something you did was inappropriate and you determine within yourself that you don't find it inappropriate, that needs to come to the surface for both parties, for all parties involved.

A (23:49)

Yeah. That takes a lot of bravery. And I guess people avoid it because it's scary because it might result in losing the relationship or it might result in losing face.

C (24:02)

Yeah, but I think that's also where the magic lies because you can. And I think that's where the reps come in. You can. You can find those values aligned relationships faster. Not that speed is the goal, but just that you can just build relationships that are true.

A (24:30)

Yeah.

C (24:31)

And you've probably heard this, it's a popular saying. I don't know where it originates from something along the lines of we will lose everyone we've ever loved one way or another. You know, death circumstances. A rupture.

A (24:53)

Yes. And that I think also includes versions of ourselves that we may or may not have been attached to in the past.

C (24:59)

Yes, exactly. So that, that loss, that loss in life is inevitable and it is painful. But. But what we, what we stand to gain from showing up in this way is, I think, more than makes up for it.

A (25:20)

Mm. Yeah. Oh, there's so much I wanna talk to you about, but I. I'm afraid that we'll run out of time, so I'm going to. I'm just going to direct us toward. You have something called a repair conversation. What. What is a repair conversation?

C (25:40)

I have this framework. The three hours of repair, the rupture happens. We've talked about that. You have the reflection, you make accurate determinations, as accurate as possible determinations from that reflection period. And then you approach with that repair conversation. You go to the person, and I believe that it can be over text, it can be in person, it can be whichever methodology feels accessible, naming that this is what feels really accessible to you right now. And so you go to them and with deep acknowledgement of the rupture naming it explicitly, naming your part in it, naming your determination to proceed differently and your desire to remain, if that is the desire to remain in relationship with them. And in that conversation, you also ask for. You ask for help if you need it. This is something I'm working on. It probably will come up again. And if you are able to, doing XYZ will help me keep to my word. To show up differently in this way. And moving from a place of deep vulnerability, recognizing when your ego wants to intercede on your behalf, and just telling it. There, there. Thank you. But not right now. And then see what comes from that.

A (27:49)

Yeah, that feels so different from an apology. Because an apology, it feels like. Like a monologue. It's very one sided and it allows us to sort of stay in our. Our private envelopes of whatever we believe reality is. But what you're describing, a repair conversation, it puts you into direct relationship with the other person so that you can keep that relationship. Which I guess is the whole point.

C (28:16)

Yeah.

A (28:16)

If the point is, as you said, to keep the relationship. Because it isn't always.

C (28:21)

It isn't always. Not even. Just like it isn't always the point. It isn't always the reality that will exist for whatever reason. Right. Like the person might say, okay, I don't forgive you, you took too long to apologize or to make amends. You. Actually, I don't. I realize that I don't even like you. Right.

A (28:51)

Yeah.

C (28:52)

If they dare ever verbalize that. Because people don't like to say they don't like people. And so it might just be the eventuality, but at least you are doing your very best to show up with this practice because you have a determination to enact this practice because you realize that by doing that, you're able to counter systems that would rather have us be divided and be separated and isolated from each other.

A (29:33)

Mm.

C (29:34)

It's. It's bigger. It's. It's a collective practice, regardless of the individual result. Perhaps.

A (29:42)

Oh, I really wanted to speak with you about. I think another. We have five minutes left, so this is obviously not gonna happen, but one of the things, One of your Instagram posts that I sent to a few friends when I first started exploring your work was about. About rage and how it has a place. And I just. I don't know if you can talk about that a little bit in a way that feels contained. We don't have to touch on it if it's already too late.

C (30:13)

Yeah. No, Rage as. Rage as a response to injustice is so central to what We've talked about showing up from a place of truth because I believe that our true nature is love, which means injustice will rankle if we're in touch with our true nature. So when we see injustice being perpetrated, be it in our interpersonal relationships or otherwise, it brings up an emotion, anger. It can be expressed. It can feel rageful. It's never to be wielded against someone because we do not have emotional control or nervous system regulation or whatever you want to call that. But when it is as a result of a natural reaction to injustice, I say wield that so ferociously. Because what we're fighting for, when we're fighting for justice, is so incredibly important to collective liberation. It is not something to be played about. It is not something to tiptoe around. That's. That's how I approach it. There's. There's. There. There are big things at stake here. Right. Um, and so being able to be in touch with that, naming it, wielding it, understanding that, yes, there might be repercussions because the people who are. Or the systems that are, like, involved in the injustice might seek to punish us for it. And I say do it anyway.

A (32:35)

Yeah. It strikes me that also when it's wielded in a. When rage is wielded in a way that is in a response to injustice, and you are being, as you said, a true mirror to someone, it's just. It's so respectful to other people to just show them who you really are and how you're feeling so that you can relate as actual human beings and not sacks of coping mechanisms that. That you've developed over the years. It's like, I think about when I had this huge. My. So the whole reason I was in therapy for five years, slash, I've been in therapy for, like, 10 years, was my dad. And I finally called him to task. This was over Skype, because I live very far away from my parents lived. And, you know, I say Skype. You know, this was like, seven years ago. I. I called him out on bad behavior, and I said, get back over here where I'm not done talking to you. What can we do? Well, it took a lot of therapy. I said, you know, we've. I would. I am. I think at the time I was. I think I was maybe 32. And I said, I. For 32 years, I have not had a relationship with my father. And I want to talk to you about what we can do so that we don't keep acting like this around each other. I. I believe that we can do better for each other.

C (33:54)

I love that.

A (33:57)

Thank you.

C (33:58)

Yeah, I really do love that with my mom even, you know, similarly, I'm just like, dude, no you will not. I am so sorry, but you will not. And I will make sure you do not.

A (34:14)

Yes. Uh huh. We are past that point now. And if you think you are going to, I'm going to tell you again. You will not.

C (34:21)

You will not.

A (34:22)

No, it's not. I love it like when we get to a point where we can be honest with our parents about what they will not do, I think that that's when you become an adult.

C (34:31)

I literally, I am fun of like disobey, disobey them. And if they perceive it as disrespect, sounds like a personal problem. But diso, disobey them.

A (34:45)

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you have a lot of experience with this with your mom too.

C (34:49)

I do.

A (34:52)

Christabel, I want to respect your time and not take up too much of it. So I'm going to wrap up here. But I always like to ask at the end of a conversation if there, if there were one thing that you wish people understood about relational skills a little bit better or something you would love people to be able to work on, what would that be?

C (35:13)

Seek repair, not perfection. Apologize when you need to, from a place of truth. Remember that repair, while repair doesn't always mean reconciliation, there is no reconciliation without repair. And what matters is practicing from a place of accountability and truth. And you might not get it. You, you definitely will not get it right the first, second, third, fourth time. But with practice, with a commitment to this as the basis of liberation, both personally and collectively, you can make headway. And I think it matters so much when so many of us are overworked, underpaid, under resourced. It is from this place that we can really, truly do it all together without. With a collective gain. You know, so that's really, that's really, that's really my dream for humanity and my wish and hope.

A (36:36)

Yeah.

C (36:36)

As I do this work, it's so

A (36:39)

big, but it's so small at the same time, which is. It's a really interesting paradox to hold. All you're asking is turn toward each other instead of away. And it's such a small mall action, but it has such big results. Okay. And the last one that is very easy I think is just. So this is a book podcast or. It started as a book podcast, nominally. And I just like to ask if there's anything that you've read lately that you loved.

C (37:06)

Oh my Gosh, yes.

A (37:08)

I knew you would have an answer.

C (37:11)

Care Work. Oh. Oh. Have you read it?

A (37:15)

No, but I've heard of it and it's on one of my many lists.

C (37:21)

I love that book. Care Work by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna Samara Sinha opened my eyes to what it looks like to be in relationship with people of different abilities, especially when mental illness and, you know, things like CPTSD are in the room. Because these are cptsd specifically is a relational, like, wound. And how then do you want to be in relationship if you have cptsd? If you. Other people have CPTSD and, you know, other mental illnesses that can make some of these things we talked about harder to grasp or practice. And it really humanized the work and made me understand certain privileges I hold and also certain things that, you know, have been hindrances for me. I don't know. It's such. It was such a great book in that way. And she. I think they conclude the book by saying that, yes, even people with mental illnesses can be in loving, healing, fulfilling relationships with others. That the solution is not to lock all of us away just because we have rage or we blow up sometimes. And it's beautiful.

A (39:01)

Oh, that makes me want to read it so much more now. Okay, I'm going to move it up my list.

C (39:05)

Okay.

A (39:07)

Thank you so much, Christabel Minta Galloway. This has been a pleasure and thank you.

C (39:13)

Thank you, Caitlin, for reaching out to me.

B (39:30)

Welcome to the bookend. We end with books, but before we talk about books that we're going to recommend, let's rehash some of the main concepts from this conversation you had with Christabel.

A (39:39)

Sure.

B (39:40)

What do you want to start with? I mean, for me, the true mirror concept was the one that most stood out and that I sort of take away.

A (39:47)

Yeah. What did you get out of it?

B (39:50)

Like, everything she was talking about, what I understood about true mirror requires being a true mirror requires a certain amount of reflection, a certain amount of self awareness, a certain amount of preparation, and even a certain amount of, like, work in order to be an effectively true mirror across the table, across the conversation, across the relationship, person for your community, the person across from you. There's a good word in German, your gegen uber. Your person across the. And I think that's what I kept thinking about. So how do you. I mean, did I get it right? Is that what a tremere is? What am I missing?

A (40:32)

Honestly, I think it's kind of. It's a concept that I can, like, feel better than I Can describe. In some ways, it's like being able to show up as your authentic self so that you can authentically reflect the person across from you. It is not hiding from having a conflict. It's saying the difficult thing. It's saying the loving thing and not being shy of that. It is being brave enough to acknowledge that there's something wrong between the two of you and having the skills to make it right. Christabel says, I think that you can't show up and be a true mirror for someone unless you're. Unless you're being real with yourself. But we also can't be real with ourselves unless we're allowing ourselves to see ourselves and our behaviors reflected in our community. Essentially. I kind of like how she set me straight when I said, oh, safety comes from you. I said, safety comes from you. And she was like, yeah, safety comes from you, but safety comes from everyone around you. Like, you can't feel safe. It's this whole chicken or egg thing, right?

B (41:38)

Yeah. You said something like security or Right. You have to. Comes from within.

A (41:42)

Yeah.

B (41:43)

You have to feel safe with yourself first.

A (41:45)

You have to feel safe with yourself in order to be safe for others and be able to trust others enough to feel safe. And it's. I think it's a difficult concept to talk about and conceive of, not because it's, like, far out there or unattainable or even, like, that difficult to be in once you're there. But it is one of these things where you don't know what the origin is. Is it, I am a safe person first, or is it that I grew up in a safe community? And if you didn't grow up in a safe community, how do you create safety within yourself? How do you. Someone who can be honest with others, who can say, I messed up, and I know how I messed up, and this is it, and I want us to fix it. I want to be better for you and for me. Here's what I'm going to do. That takes so many balls and so much relational skill to just. To look at yourself and say, I know that I did that, or to hear really hard feedback from a friend. I don't know, you know, what phrase

B (42:44)

I took away, what to practice that. What is it you will not. I like how you.

A (42:51)

I like that a lot. We both got kind of riled up there, but it was good. I think it's really hard to be a true mirror because it involves so much honesty with yourself and the people in front of you. Honesty that might hurt but also holds you and them together in a way that false relating just can't.

B (43:13)

So do you want to talk about another concept or do you want to go straight to the books I loved?

A (43:17)

I love this quote, and I just want to say it because I think that this is what really stuck with me. I said part of it in the beginning of the interview. But Christabel says the systems we live under benefit greatly when we don't learn repair. We are scattered and dependent upon empire to meet our needs because we do not have dependable, trustworthy, committed relationships. And that is what is at stake here for me in her work. It is teaching us how to be dependable and to depend on each other so that we can live richer lives and make decisions for ourselves that are based on mutual and personal good, not on a system's gain from us.

B (43:58)

Yeah, that's it. Dependable relationships.

A (44:00)

Safe, committed, dependable relationships through being honest and true with each other.

B (44:05)

Amazing.

A (44:06)

Yeah. Books.

B (44:08)

Let's do books. I mean, we can talk about this forever. I think we'll share some extra resources for sure in the newsletter.

A (44:13)

Yes.

B (44:13)

And please point to some of. Yeah, exactly what you were gonna say. Workbooks. Because like you said in the intro, there's so much there, but we can't, you know, we're not gonna cover as much as she did.

A (44:24)

Cool.

B (44:24)

So books, let's talk about books.

A (44:26)

Do you wanna recommend one first?

B (44:27)

Yeah, I mean, I had kind of a classic because I was thinking like, you know, she talks about books on care, which I thought was really interesting.

A (44:34)

Yeah. Care, work.

B (44:34)

I wanted to recommend this book, the Art of Gathering that I've talked about. I just want to go back to the basics because like, let's just. I was just going to recommend Nonviolent Communication, the book by Marshall Rosenberg. Because in the book itself, like everyone knows nonviolent communication is this three step process that we have to learn, blah, blah, blah. But. And it's great. But in the book there's a lot of steps of reflection that happen before each communication step. And if you really take it very seriously, you know, reflecting on what are my feelings or what is my need or what is my ask, and very slowly communicate. That way it starts to feel like what Christabel's asking for. This kind of work, this kind of honesty, this kind of directness, this kind of. Yeah, like a process.

A (45:28)

Yeah.

B (45:28)

And it really reminded me of this. Even though it's a very classic and kind of predictable recommendation, I think it's really important and really useful.

A (45:34)

Yeah, it's part of building that muscle, that reflection muscle. Cool. Yeah.

B (45:39)

And it's not easy.

A (45:41)

It is not easy. No. I think it comes from. It's hard to build that muscle until you have really taken on board for yourself that messing up is okay.

B (45:51)

Yeah.

A (45:51)

And that is another thing that I think it just takes time and experience to learn.

B (45:56)

Yeah. So what did you bring? What's your recommendation?

A (45:59)

Okay. This is a book that it was published in 2020. It is called the Weirdest People in the World. It's by Joseph Henrich. Have you heard of this before?

B (46:08)

Mm, mm.

A (46:09)

Okay. If you identify yourself by your profession first or achievements first, or you work really hard at your own unique individual attributes, but don't really identify yourself as being part of a family or a network, you might be weird. And that stands for have you heard this acronym before? Weird. Okay, so it's Western educated, industrialized, rich and democratic. And Joseph Henrich is the guy who developed it. So weird. Weird. The weirdest people in the world. Nice. And it so weird. People are highly individualistic, as we talked about, nonconformist, analytical, control oriented and psychologically pretty peculiar. We're like new and weird in this world. Weird. And this book is how the population became what it is by looking at history, anthropology, economics, and evolutionary biology and how these things shape the Western mind. It starts in the Middle Ages and goes forward.

B (47:06)

So amazing.

A (47:06)

Yeah, really, really cool book. Weird societies. Jane Borden, Fun Fact, also talks about this in her book, but it's a good read. I recommend it. So the Weirdest People in the World by Joseph Henrich.

B (47:16)

Yeah. Cool. Some more good recommendations. We'll put some more info in the show notes. We'll link to Christabel's Instagram, like you said. For people who are not already on our newsletter, you should check it out. We'll also be sharing more stuff there and otherwise, yeah, we're loving our new cadence. So we'll see everybody in just a couple weeks. All right, you want to take us home?

A (47:33)

Let's do it. Simplify is produced by me, Caitlin Schiller, Ben Shuman, Stoller Odie Constantino, and recorded here in Colomedia Studios in the back of the Chapters Bookshop in Berlin, Germany. And yeah, psyched to be here. See you soon.

B (47:48)

See you soon. Check it out.

A (47:49)

Check it out.

B (47:50)

Bye.