David Richo: Better Than Revenge

Summary

Simplify Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: "David Richo: Better Than Revenge"

Podcast: Simplify
Host: Caitlin Schiller (with Ben Schuman-Stoler)
Guest: Dr. David Richo
Release Date: March 9, 2026

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Overview

In this rich, contemplative episode, Caitlin Schiller sits down with Dr. David Richo—a psychotherapist, teacher, and author—to explore the deeply human urge for revenge. Drawing from his new book, Sweeter Than Revenge, Richo discusses why retaliation is such a powerful instinct, how it impacts our relationships and personal development, and how we can break the cycle by embracing forgiveness and spiritual growth. The conversation is grounded in psychological insight and Buddhist philosophy, making it both accessible and profound.
Main Theme: Moving beyond the urge for revenge by understanding its origins, impact, and alternatives, with a practical and spiritual toolkit for transforming reactive emotions into growth and love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Drives Us Toward Revenge?

• Current Events as Catalyst (05:38): Richo explains the book was prompted by a public declaration of retribution (specifically Netanyahu on Hamas) and his desire to offer alternatives to societal and personal cycles of revenge.

  • Quote: "I started writing the book that same day because I felt a calling to let everyone know that there are alternatives to retribution, revenge, retaliation. And we find these alternatives in our own hearts and in Buddhism." (05:47, Dr. David Richo)

• Pleasure in Retaliation is Neurological but Fleeting (09:10): Neuroscience shows a temporary dopamine reward for revenge, but it quickly gives way to regret or self-dislike.

  • Quote: "The pleasure is temporary. ... 'Revenge at first, though sweet, bitter, ere long back on itself recoils.' ... It’s a short pleasure. Eventually it ricochets back on you because you don’t like yourself as much when you’re that kind of person." (08:41, Richo quoting Milton)

2. Forgiveness vs. Pardon—Letting Go for Yourself

• Forgiveness as Internal Process (09:24): Richo draws a sharp distinction between forgiveness (letting go of resentment, ill will, blame, and plans to retaliate) and legal pardon (removal of consequence).
  • Outlines the "Four Letting Gos" as the foundation of true forgiveness:
    1. Resentment
    2. Ill will (wishing for karmic retribution)
    3. Blame
    4. The plan to retaliate

3. Revenge in Culture and Entertainment

• Why Revenge Narratives Are Popular (13:08): Richo notes that films and myths thrive on stories where the villain receives "just" punishment, creating catharsis for viewers by indulging our innate desire for retribution.
  • Quote: "They all end with the hurture is hurt. And they don’t keep in mind that the hurter is someone who has been hurt." (13:55, Richo)

4. Non-Retaliation as a Spiritual Practice

• “Wise as Serpents, Gentle as Doves” (14:45): Richo asserts that non-retaliation doesn’t mean being a doormat; rather, it’s the pursuit of wisdom and non-violence, fostering forgiveness and connection over perpetuating cycles of hurt.
  • Quote: "You can’t be caring if you’re retaliating. ... Retaliation I see as the opposite of love." (15:35, Richo)

5. Why We Retaliate Against Those We Love

• Origins in Intimacy and Childhood (17:14): Retaliation in intimate relationships can stem from:

  • Resentment at needing someone ("How dare you make me love you so now I need you—this is terrible.")

  • Fear of closeness ("If there’s a fear of closeness, you’re better off retaliating, which re-establishes distance.")

  • Transference of unresolved parental issues.

  • Quote: "We will hurt the one we love because deep down we resent the fact that we need that person." (17:38, Richo)

6. Grief as the Root Emotion Hidden by Revenge

• Retaliation Masks Vulnerability (20:45): Richo ties revenge to a desire to avoid grief—retaliation becomes a defense against feeling powerlessness and sadness rooted in our earliest relationships.
  • Quote: "The hope for revenge shall hide our inward woe." (from Shakespeare, Troilus and Cressida, 22:00, Richo)

7. Building Non-Retaliation as a “Muscle”

• Practice and Spiritual “Reps” (24:22): Developing the ability to forgo revenge is likened to building muscle—it requires ongoing, deliberate practice.
  • Quote: "It’s a daily practice to build special muscle that love is." (24:22, Richo)

8. The Four-Step Process for Letting Go of Revenge

(26:44) Caitlin explicitly prompts Richo to walk through his four-step antidote to vengeful impulses:

1. Grieve: Allow yourself to feel sadness, healthy anger, and fear.
2. Say “Ouch”: Assertively and honestly declare the impact without aggression.
3. Offer Dialogue: Open space for non-violent communication and potential reconciliation.
4. Send Goodwill: Wish the person well and “detach with love”—a cornerstone of Buddhist loving-kindness. - Quote: "Whenever you decide that you want to act from a higher self than ego, you are suddenly gifted with virtues that were always in you but suddenly come to life." (25:07, Richo)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Retaliation is not creative. It’s not something new from you. It’s just a copycat." (11:57, Richo)
• "You’d have to want to be somebody different to do any of this. If you want to go on feeling good that you got back at the so-and-so, this book is useless." (27:57, Richo)
• "If equal affection cannot be, let the more loving one be me." —Audrey W.H. Auden, referenced by Richo as his favorite affirmation (30:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:38]: What inspired the book—public retaliation and the search for alternatives
• [08:41]: Neuroscience of the short-lived pleasure of revenge (Milton quote)
• [09:24]: The distinction between pardon and forgiveness; four steps to letting go
• [13:08]: Why cultural narratives glorify revenge
• [14:45]: Non-retaliation and the “serpent/dove” metaphor
• [17:14]: Roots of revenge in relationships—resentment, fear, transference
• [20:45]: Grief as the core hidden by vengeance; Shakespeare’s insight
• [24:22]: Love as a muscle; the practice of non-retaliation
• [26:44]: The Four-Step Process to move beyond revenge impulses
• [30:01]: Favorite affirmation: letting the “more loving one” be oneself

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Reflection & Podcast Hosts’ Takeaways

• Who Do You Want to Be? (32:49): Forgiveness is not contingent on the “deservedness” of the other, but on your own identity and values.

  • Quote (Caitlin): "You decide who you want to be … why not surprise someone with kindness?"
  • Quote (Ben): "Do you seek revenge? Do you want to make other people miserable because you think that'll make you feel better?"

• Grown-Up Emotional Responses (34:22): Sharing an anecdote about Marie Louise (Napoleon’s wife), Ben illustrates the mature alternative to revenge—wishing someone well, just not nearby.

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Recommended Related Reading (as per episode)

• Sweeter Than Revenge by David Richo (main book discussed)
• How to Be an Adult in Relationships by David Richo
• With the End in Mind by Kathryn Mannix (on forgiveness, letting go at the end of life)

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Concluding Thought

Dr. Richo’s work, as discussed in the episode, convincingly reframes the question of revenge: it’s not about what others “deserve,” but about who you choose to become. His four-step process and call for inner transformation challenge listeners to do the difficult, creative, and ultimately freeing work of letting go—so that we might live more courageously, lovingly, and lightly.

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For the full four-step process and more practical insight into transforming reactive patterns, listeners are encouraged to explore Sweeter Than Revenge and Dr. Richo’s related books.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Simplify. I'm Caitlin Schiller.

[B]

And I'm Ben Schuman Stoller.

[A]

Hi, Ben.

[B]

Hey, Caitlin.

[A]

Ben. Is there anybody in your life upon whom you wish to avenge yourself that

[B]

I want to get revenge on?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I've had that feeling.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Have you?

[A]

So have I.

[B]

And I've had it, like, very intensely.

[A]

I've had it more recently than I would care to admit, actually.

[B]

You wish people ill.

[A]

There's one person I wish ill. Really? I'm not gonna tell you who it is.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Maybe we can talk about it later. Off mic.

[B]

But I'm so excited.

[A]

The feeling of revenge, it's a very natural human impulse. Even if you do try to be equanimous, much of the time, you're gonna feel it. It is built into us. But we can tap into the better angels of our nature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And find ways to deal with those feelings that don't include, you know, slashing somebody's tires and keying their car.

[B]

No. Or just saying something really mean. That would be more like my response.

[A]

Or that, you know. Anyway.

[B]

Making them miserable.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That would also be my response, even, like, for a short amount of time. But so. Because we have David Rico today on.

[A]

We do. Today's guest is David Rico.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, we're excited about that. It was lovely to talk with him. But, Ben, you just did this really cute, excited intro about why you were happy that we got to get him on the show. Tell me about it.

[B]

Well, he. Yeah, I mean, look, David goes in. He's an authority about topics related, like about interpersonal topics. Right. So he's written about relationships.

[A]

Challenging ones, though.

[B]

Challenging ones. Right.

[A]

Stuff that isn't that pretty.

[B]

Yeah. And he has a really. He has this way that good thinkers about complicated topics do, and especially simplify guests, I guess, do. Of boiling it down in a way that you can not only understand the sort of hairy, really complicated interpersonal challenge, but also then do something about it. And so I think this topic of revenge makes total sense within his catalog of work. And we're gonna say more about that in the bookend.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

But I think that's important context for people. Like, he's coming to this topic from 30, 40 years of working on interpersonal topics.

[A]

He's a therapist. I guess we. I don't know if we mentioned that, but he's a therapist and an author. And just like to give you a taste of what Ben was talking about. I think his. I don't know if there was last two books but two of his more popular books are a recent one on grief, which is also a Hard feeling. And another book of his that I would love to talk about, talk with him about. It's called how to be an Adult in Relationships. And yeah, so that's kind of him. And he comes to all of his topics with a very intellectual and very spiritual background. He's a Zen guy. He's, I think, mindful guy, mindfulness, et cetera. And when I saw. So he came to us on a recommendation from a good friend of Ben's who has great literary taste.

[B]

Hi, Abby.

[A]

Hi, Abby. So I checked him out and I saw that he had a new book coming out called Sweeter Than Revenge. And I thought, oh, my goodness, what is this about? And Revenge is such a great topic right now. You see it in the news all the time. You hear about it. We hear about an administration wishing to have vengeance upon its enemies. It's very Shakespearean, but it's very contemporary. It felt like the right time and the right book. Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, we should just get into it kind of. But, like. And save this for the bookend. But the, but the main things. I mean, do you want to share one thing that people should look out for?

[C]

I want to tell you.

[A]

Well, no, but I want to tell you. I do want to tell you something important. This is a very calm, gentle interview and pacing. And you'll notice that the audio quality isn't maybe what you usually hear on Simplify. It's because of various, you know, audio equipment, logistical things. But I wanted to let you know that it's not gonna sound like it normally does, but it's still worth it. I think it's worth it for the content and I think if we're gonna listen, for one thing, listen up for his four step process for letting go of those vengeful feelings that's in there.

[B]

All right. Don't forget that we have this newsletter. Caitlin's been writing these amazing essays. Really, Caitlyn. I've been forwarding them around.

[C]

Aww.

[B]

And we have this new Instagram also where Caitlin's also been making really nice carousels. You've been doing kind of everything I've been trying.

[A]

Ben, you've been busy.

[C]

A new baby.

[B]

I have to do stuff. All right, let's play the interview and then we'll talk more in the bookend.

[A]

Let's do it.

[C]

Hi, Dave. Thanks so much for joining me today.

[D]

Thank you, Caitlyn.

[C]

I'm so glad to have you here. Dave, I. I often ask people you know, this is your name. You're. You're David rico. You're a PhD, you're a psychotherapist, you're a teacher, you're a writer, you're a workshop leader, and you're an author. Are there any other titles or functions that you would like to add to that list of distinguishments?

[D]

Well, the book we'll be talking about is called Sweeter Than Revenge.

[C]

You have a very gentle way of talking about revenge and of addressing what it is. This book is all about our very human instinct toward retaliation and why we've got it, what it does to our relationships to self and to community and the world, and how we can maybe grow beyond it with, with more skills. Before we get into any of those more granular things, I was wondering. It seemed really appropriate to me to release this book now, which is why I really wanted to talk to you. But what brought you to this book?

[D]

Now what brought me to this book was a particular moment in history. It was something on the TV in which Netanyahu said, I intend to retaliate against Hamas like the world has never seen. And of course, that was two years ago. And I started writing the book that same day because I felt a calling to let everyone know that there are alternatives to retribution, revenge, retaliation. And we find these alternatives in our own hearts and in Buddhism. Basically. I'm trying to show in the book, and I hope in my life that there are alternatives to retribution, that you can say ouch and open a dialogue with the other person, if the other person is willing and move into a richer experience of honesty between the two of you. And you can personally vow no longer to retaliate in any of your relationships. So that's the overall picture of what's in the book. But of course, that takes us into all kinds of other topics, right?

[C]

The territory is vast.

[D]

It certainly is. And I was surprised about that when I started writing the book. I thought, oh, this is just going to be about revenge. But no, there's no such thing as just about revenge. You have to go into. Be assertive enough to be able to say ouch, rather than sneak around and look for some way to get back at the person in a passive aggressive way. You have to be able to forgive if the other person honestly shows some repentance or even if the other person doesn't. You are engaging in a spiritual practice of ongoing forgivingness and you have to give up the pleasure that comes from getting back at someone. And it is the reward circuits of the brain that get Activated when you plan to retaliate. And when you do retaliate, however, the pleasure is temporary. It was expressed best by John Milton in his long, beautiful poem called Paradise Lost. We have the quote as revenge is sweet. We've all heard that. But I looked it up and turns out that it doesn't actually say that. Here's what it says now I'm quoting Milton. Revenge at first, though sweet, bitter, ere long back on itself recoils. So first he's saying, yes, revenge at first is sweet. Then he says the sweetness turns to bitterness very soon. That's ere long. And that's exactly what we know from neuroscience, that it's a short pleasure. Eventually it ricochets back on you because you don't like yourself as much when you're that kind of a person.

[C]

Yeah. So non retaliation is kind of the spiritual long game. And I love what you said about how this is a personal choice that

[D]

you're making when you say it's for yourself. That also applies to the difference between forgiveness and pardon. So pardon is to let someone off the hook, to release someone from the consequences of his or their behavior. A judge can do that. You committed a crime and the judge pardoned you. The judge released you from a fine or imprisonment. Forgiveness is a different thing. Forgiveness is I'm letting go of resentment, holding on to resentment against you because of what you've done. I'm letting go of ill will, wanting something bad to happen to you. In other words, let the universe retaliate against you. Third, letting go of blame, and fourth, letting go of the plan to retaliate. To let go of those four is the equivalent of forgiveness. So forgiveness is a letting go internally, and it's a grace to have that happen. It's more likely to come to us when we have done the practice of non retaliation. I experience the grief about what just happened to me internally. You can tell the other person about it, but it's not necessary. Secondly, I say ouch. I declare the impact of what the other person has done and how it felt at my end, hurtful. And then I open, or shall I say offer the chance to have the kind of conversation that will lead to clearing things up. And if I can't have that, I wish the person well and detach with love. And when that happens, it's the equivalent of forgiveness. I have a section in the book on the word deserve. Once you get that, you don't wait for someone to deserve forgiveness. You forgive because that's who you have become. You have become someone who does not keep resenting, who does not hold ill will hope something bad happens to the other, who is not blaming, although asking for accountability is always okay. And most of all, who's not retaliating. Secondly, retaliation. The word retaliation comes from two Latin words. The first part, re, means back, as in hit back. It also means repeat. And the second part, tal t a l in Latin means such. So it's do such back as was done to you. That's retaliation. And that shows you, the very word itself shows you that retaliation is not creative. It's not something new from you. It's just a copycat.

[C]

No. And it's not special. It's not creative, it's not that interesting. And yet we have so many cultural narratives and also just entertainment narratives that really hinge on retaliation. And they make so much money at the box office, they're so popular. Why?

[D]

So what films and dramas have always done is pander to the part of us that wants to retaliate. As you're watching the film, when you see that the evil character or the villain is not only doing something harmful, but doing it in an especially gruesome way, you also know that when the time comes, that person is going to get an especially horrible form of retribution. We've been trained to get the catharsis, the feeling of letting go and having the sense that the right thing happens and you can breathe a sigh of relief. We've been taught that the way to get that is by seeing full on revenge. As in, you know, Hamlet and other Shakespeare plays. In the Greek plays they're full of revenge. So are the myths, so are the fairy tales. They all end with the hurture is hurt. And they don't keep in mind that the hurter is someone who has been hurt. So they also lack that elements of compassion that is part of our Buddhist practice.

[C]

There's a beautiful quote that you share in there. I really loved it. I think it was. It's something like be as cunning as the serpent and as gentle as the dove.

[D]

Yes. The alternative to retaliation does not mean that you're going to let someone walk all over you or do it again. We're still going to be wise as serpents, but we're going to be as doves. We're still going to be people who believe in non violence. Another topic that the book brought me to. And we're no longer going to get our pleasure from seeing someone else suffer. Our pleasure now comes from seeing someone else forgiven and possibly changed for the better because of his her they connection to us. My working definition of love is a caring, committed connection.

[C]

Yes, I love this.

[D]

You can't be caring if you're retaliating. You can't really be committed to relating to someone if you're still retaliating. And you've certainly broken the connection if you retaliate. Retaliation I see as the opposite of love. Now, in a relationship, there could be a little tit for tat that does not cancel love. But when it's full on retaliation, especially as you see in a nasty divorce, then one wonders, did you ever really love that other person anyway?

[C]

Yeah, fair question. I, I really really loved this definition.

[A]

In fact, because we're here now, I

[C]

thought the chapter on revenge and retaliation and intimate relationships, despite how it sounds, it very sweet because of the vulnerability that it revealed. And you offer possible reasons for hurting the people that we love. And one is basically falling in love and then being resentful that we need someone so much. The underlying feeling there is, how dare you make me love you now I need you. This is terrible. I'm no longer a completely autonomous being. And then you outline three other reasons that we might hurt the people that we we love in love. And they're resentment, fear, and transference. Probably most people listening will be familiar with these words, but I thought it would be really valuable to have you walk us through these reasons because I think it's so important to reflect on, especially in our loving relationships, why we are behaving this way and where the hurt and the lashing out is coming from.

[D]

Yes, of course. Yeah, it's such a mystery. Why do we hurt the one we love? I do want to say that the name of the chapter about how retaliation sometimes happens in intimate relationships is From Payback to Love Back. We could go from payback to just give up paying back, or we could go one step further. And this is when you're in spiritual consciousness, not only will I not hurt you back, but I will even love you more. So that's the biggest challenge that the book presents. But let's go back to your question. So, first of all, we will hurt the one we love because deep down we resent the fact that we need that person. And that person has contradicted our ego's view that I don't need anybody. All I need is myself. I don't need people. Well, when you notice that you do need someone and you still have that ego, then you're going to resent. Resent means feel anger deep down, but don't show it directly. Secondly, it's the fear that if I don't retaliate, if instead I love the person more and more, no matter what the person does, the way we love our children, then I fear that we'll get closer and closer. And so if there's a fear of closeness, you're better off retaliating, which constantly re establishes distance between you. And then third is transference. And let's say your mother was abusive towards you, or your father was abusive towards you, or they somehow were emotionally unavailable and you resent them for it and haven't worked out your childhood through therapy. So you're transferring onto this person that you love the leftover resentments that you had toward the parent who disappointed or hurt you. So as long as the partner has the face of your mother or father and you have not worked things out with what happened between you and your parents, you will take it out on your partner.

[C]

I would love it if we could remove the shame from the idea that we will act in ways that are kind of petty and act out toward our parent who might have hurt us. That's natural. If you don't resolve it, of course it's going to happen. But until you feel like it's normal and you're not flawed and. And crazy for acting that way, it's really hard to admit to it and get help for it.

[D]

Yeah. The psyche does not care who the actors on the stage are. It only wants one thing to finish. Unfinished business to be done with leftover stuff from the past. That's the healthy part of us. But you're supposed to do that in therapy, not in a relationship.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[D]

If you don't mind, I wanted to mention, since we had talked about Grief is also the leftover unfinished business of childhood. When you think of what your parent, how your parents treated you, and maybe they mistreated you, maybe they didn't come through for you, maybe they abused you. Whatever it might be, the appropriate feeling is grief. I feel sad that they treated me like this. I'm angry that they treated me like this. I'm afraid that other people will treat me like this. Those are the three elements of grief. Sadness about what you missed out on, anger at the people who made you miss out on something, and fear that it'll just keep happening throughout your life. So one of the things that I realized, and this all began with a one line quote from Shakespeare. This is from his play Troilus and Cressida. The hope for revenge shall hide our inward woe. The hope that we will get revenge against the One who hurt us shall hide. Shall eliminate the necessity of having to face it. Our inward woe. We have interior grief, but if we retaliate, we won't have to feel our interior grief. I consider this the main reason we retaliate. It's to avoid grief, is you don't want to feel bad about what happened. You don't want to feel sad. You want to do what Troilus was trying to do. Hide it, escape from it. That's what you're up to when you retaliate. Boy, it took me a while to figure that out. But once I did get there, you know, even in my own life, I said to myself, oh, my God. Well, the grief is the worst feeling you could possibly have. Makes you feel so damn vulnerable and weak and powerless. Brings you right back to how powerless you felt in childhood. I don't want that. I want to find a way to avoid it. And lo and behold, Mother Nature gave me away.

[C]

Retaliation.

[D]

Yeah. It's so avoidant, so primitive.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It doesn't say much for the wonderful, evolved human mind that we have. No, like the cave people. You know, coming from that part of ourselves, not from the part that produced Mother Teresa and Gandhi and Martin Luther King. That's not the part of ourselves that we're accessing. We're actually accessing Genghis Khan and Hitler.

[A]

I guess we've all got a little

[C]

bit of that in us. But, I mean, I think that this part of us is. Is something we can only meet with time and experience and learning. So, of course it takes reps. You got to get in there and work on your. On your better nature. Like you work on your, you know, your delts or your quads, I guess.

[D]

Yeah, Good way to put it is a daily practice to build special muscle that love is. Yes.

[C]

I like the idea of love as a muscle. The kind of person who is able to give themselves a little talk and say, okay, I'm choosing not to retaliate because in my spiritual practice, that's not who I want to be. That is hard. It's a very tall order. And it does take reps, and it takes intention and practice. And when it feels that hard, what are you supposed to do? How. How do you get yourself there when it feels really difficult and all you want to do is channel your inner Genjas Khan and go for it.

[D]

Whenever you say yes to the higher self, which is exactly what you just described, you will automatically become courageous. I've seen it happen over and over in my own life and in the Life of my clients. There's something that opens up. When you open up, you find graces of courage, wisdom, compassion that were always in you, but the vow to give up something like retaliating. Or you could give up, you know, hurting people or whatever. But whenever you decide that you want to act from a higher self than ego, you are. You are suddenly gifted with virtues that were always in you but suddenly come to life.

[C]

I wanted to. I would just love for you to take us through before we say goodbye because I think that you. You make it very clear about what the alternative to revenge can be. So when the impulse takes over, you offer four steps to go beyond retaliation. And they're grieve, say ouch, offer dialogue and send goodwill. Could you just talk us through that?

[D]

I would see that as a spiritual practice that includes healthy psychology.

[C]

Right. And this sounds like it's related to what you were saying when we first started talking about how you need certain skills in order to do this.

[D]

Yeah. The first skill would be can I let myself feel grief? And can I let myself be sad? Healthily? Anger. And I have a chart in the book that shows the difference between healthy anger and abusive anger. And then third, let go of the fear that I'll be powerless over other people who do these things to me. That's your healthy psychology. Then saying ouch is your healthy assertiveness training. Then you're opening a dialogue is where you go to non violent communication as we learned from Rosenberg.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And then the fourth one is the wishing of goodwill. That's where we go to Buddhism and the loving kindness practice.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You'd have to want to be somebody different to do any of this. If you want to go on feeling good that you got back at the so and so, this book is useless.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I suppose it's.

[A]

It's.

[C]

Buyers are self selecting.

[D]

Yeah. And even wanting to be different is itself a grace.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You don't just suddenly think, oh, I think I'll do that. The think I'll do that came from some kind of power, higher power than the ego. The ego wouldn't come up with it on its own. But to say, I vow never again to retaliate against anyone, no matter what they do to me, that's a hard one just to think up on your own. I get that. I really do. God, it was hard for me. It took me many, many years. And I describe my journey in the last part of the book. It took 20 years of Buddhism before I got to this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Dave, this book. There are so many different practices that people can use here to get to a place where. Where they are. They feel more able and sort of internally supported to be able to practice forgiveness and become more forgiving themselves. And you also have a lot of affirmations that help us get closer.

[A]

You even have a list, and I

[C]

have a favorite, and mine is I am changing in myself what I want to see changed in others. I just wondered if you had a favorite.

[D]

I like the one you picked. But I also like that whole idea of, if love can't be the same between us two, I'll be the one to be more loving towards you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

From Auden.

[D]

The poem says, if equal affection cannot be, let the more loving one be me. And the name of the poem is the More Loving one by Auden.

[C]

Beautiful.

[D]

I thought to myself when I read that, wow, that's going one step further than love you back.

[A]

It is.

[C]

Dave, I want to be respectful of your time and let you go here in a minute, but if there were one thing that you wish people understood more about revenge, what is that thing?

[D]

For me, it would be the joy of transitioning from payback to love back. And I'd like to thank you for this wonderful interview.

[C]

Thank you, too. It was such a pleasure to speak with you again.

[B]

Welcome to the bookend, where we end with books. Here we go. I'm excited to kind of hash through this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to hear what you have to say.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I mean, well, okay, let's start this in a more structured way, maybe. What do you want people to walk away with from this episode?

[A]

What do I. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Well, I think the main thing for me is something that we all, I guess, kind of instinctively know, but it's that we decide who we want to be, and we can decide for ourselves if we want to be someone who forgives. And to me, I want to be someone who forgives because I think it's more freeing and significantly, if you're, you know, into, like, personality building, it's more interesting. This thing about retaliation, being uncreative, just doing exactly back to. To the other person, whatever they did to you. It's so rote and boring. And let's not be like that. Be creative. Be the interesting person who decides to go, I'm not gonna fight back against you in this way because it's too easy, it's too boring, it's too expected. Why not surprise someone with kindness?

[B]

It's such a good way of re. Sort of reframing the cause. Obviously, everybody wants to be above Revenge. Everybody wants to be, like, magnanimous, of course, and like, so, so cool and so in control and so present and so, like, also so tough and so Teflon and so. You know what I mean? Like, of course everybody wants to be, like, untouched by this revenge impulse. But yeah, this reframing of, you know, don't forgive because, like, they deserve it, but if. Because that's who you are.

[C]

That's who you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, I love that.

[A]

Or, you know, and who you are is someone more interesting than somebody who just slaps back.

[B]

Yeah. I think, you know, he said, you know, move from payback to love back. And revenge is the opposite of love. I get where he's coming from and all that, but for me, this kind of, who are you? Who do you want to be?

[A]

Who are you?

[B]

I think that I can connect to that. And he has, in his work, he has this kind of concept of like adulthood, you know, of real. Of realizing yourself as a fully. As like a grown ass human. And so this idea of when. When you're at your fully realized state or whatever, can you. Do you seek revenge? Do you want to make other people miserable because you think that'll make you feel better? Yeah, I love that. I can really relate to that.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Such a helpful recentering. Although I will say I'm not desperately seeking revenge at this exact moment. It's hard to think. It's hard to think rationally.

[A]

Well, next time you are, let me know and I'll remind you of this.

[B]

Well, then you have to like, yeah, you got to find that center. You know, I was listening to the Age of Napoleon. This podcast. I really want to.

[A]

Maria Louise, Roman Empire.

[B]

Okay. I was listening to the Age of Napoleon, a podcast that comes out monthly about Napoleon and the age of Napoleon. As it says. Marie Louise, his. His second wife after Napoleon died, she said something really funny and related to this. She said, you know, they had like this famously not so happy marriage. She said, you know, I could have wished him more happy years. Just far away from me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, like, she was able to sort of overcome this in her life of this kind of like, you know, this was a political marriage, whatever. I just, I like that. That sort of grown up way of being like, you know, I'm sad that he died. Even though this person, you know, wasn't connected with my happiest years or whatever. I wish for him. I'm the kind of person that wishes for him more happy years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But just nowhere near me. Yeah, that's like a. That's a grown up thing to say.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Love it.

[B]

I think that's a cool, you know, telling you, man.

[A]

Age of Napoleon.

[B]

Should we do books? Yeah, what do you got?

[A]

Oh, wait, I wanted to maybe we'll cut this. But it was funny. All these little like different threads of different Simplify episodes sort of activated in my brain when I was listening to this. And when he talks about how letting go in forgiveness activates virtues within us that were not previously active but suddenly come to life, he says, letting go is a choice that you make. And it made me think of Seth Godin saying a million years ago about starting a project, you don't need more time, you just need to decide. And so much of life just comes down to that. Deciding who do I wanna be? When do I wanna start? And just doing it.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Boom.

[B]

All right, I'll start with a book.

[A]

Please do.

[B]

So I wanted to actually bring how to be an Adult in relationships. David Rico's 2002 classic couples therapy.

[A]

Classic 2002, I think. Wow. Huh?

[B]

So one, one, one, one sentence recap. I found of this book is healthy relationships aren't about finding a perfect person, but about becoming a person who can be loved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And who can love. So again, it's this kind of. This idea of like, what kind of person do you want to be? And there's like, he's got stages, he. He's got like the four A's. He's got all these frameworks and stuff. But like this idea again of in my most realized self. Right. Like after I can be mindful, after I can kind of reach a. More like a place from which to address the complicated, complex interpersonal places. Yeah. Like once you've reached that. Okay, I can look at this situation. So not like in a moment of great fury where you have to be like perfect gently about everything. But no, like in a calm moment when you can react to things calmly. Who do you want to be as your fully formed person in a relationship?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I love that. I think that's great. It's also like the title, how to be an Adult in Relationships. I see that as, you know, how do you want to just feel better? Like, how do you want to be the person you want to be in relationships? What do you got?

[A]

What do I have? I actually have a recommendation of an author who we've had on Simplify, which I hope isn't too much of a cheat, but it's. I'm always talking about this episode, it's with the end in mind by Kathryn Mannix. And listening back to the conversation with Rico made me think about her book, because she explains in this book, by the way, Kathryn Mannix, in case you don't know, and you really should, because it's a classic great Simplify episode. Kathryn Mannix is a hospice physician, and she wrote this beautiful book about death and what death looks like and sounds like and feels like toward the end for the people around the person who's dying, also, to an extent, for the person who's dying and just what to expect in this process. And she explains that in all of her time as a hospice physician, people mostly just want to say, I love you, I forgive you, and I'm sorry at the end of their lives. And that's all that really matters. So it related to the Rico conversation to me, because why not expedite the. The freedom and resolution of unfinished business that you're gonna want on your deathbed by forgiving now, by not seeking revenge now. So let's just set ourselves free. Anyway, read the book. It's so beautiful. It's a really, really great book. It might make you have some really difficult conversations with your parents about what they want at the end of their lives, but we need to do that stuff. Yeah, that's my rec.

[B]

All right.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

That's pretty much it for this episode.

[A]

It felt so fast.

[B]

Do you want to talk more about revenge?

[A]

No, I think I'm good. I mean, I get too thirsty for it if I talk about it too much.

[B]

I think people should buy the book, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, buy the book. It's lovely. All right. Thank you to David Rico, of course. And Simplify was produced by me, Caitlin Schiller, Benjamin Stoller, in Berlin, Germany. In the back of the Chapters, bookshop by Colo Media. All right, till next time. Check it out.

[B]

Check it out. Bye.

[D]

It.