Simplify Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: "David Richo: Better Than Revenge"

Podcast: Simplify
Host: Caitlin Schiller (with Ben Schuman-Stoler)
Guest: Dr. David Richo
Release Date: March 9, 2026

Overview

In this rich, contemplative episode, Caitlin Schiller sits down with Dr. David Richo—a psychotherapist, teacher, and author—to explore the deeply human urge for revenge. Drawing from his new book, Sweeter Than Revenge, Richo discusses why retaliation is such a powerful instinct, how it impacts our relationships and personal development, and how we can break the cycle by embracing forgiveness and spiritual growth. The conversation is grounded in psychological insight and Buddhist philosophy, making it both accessible and profound.
Main Theme: Moving beyond the urge for revenge by understanding its origins, impact, and alternatives, with a practical and spiritual toolkit for transforming reactive emotions into growth and love.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Drives Us Toward Revenge?

• Current Events as Catalyst (05:38): Richo explains the book was prompted by a public declaration of retribution (specifically Netanyahu on Hamas) and his desire to offer alternatives to societal and personal cycles of revenge.

  • Quote: "I started writing the book that same day because I felt a calling to let everyone know that there are alternatives to retribution, revenge, retaliation. And we find these alternatives in our own hearts and in Buddhism." (05:47, Dr. David Richo)

• Pleasure in Retaliation is Neurological but Fleeting (09:10): Neuroscience shows a temporary dopamine reward for revenge, but it quickly gives way to regret or self-dislike.

  • Quote: "The pleasure is temporary. ... 'Revenge at first, though sweet, bitter, ere long back on itself recoils.' ... It’s a short pleasure. Eventually it ricochets back on you because you don’t like yourself as much when you’re that kind of person." (08:41, Richo quoting Milton)

2. Forgiveness vs. Pardon—Letting Go for Yourself

• Forgiveness as Internal Process (09:24): Richo draws a sharp distinction between forgiveness (letting go of resentment, ill will, blame, and plans to retaliate) and legal pardon (removal of consequence).
  • Outlines the "Four Letting Gos" as the foundation of true forgiveness:
    1. Resentment
    2. Ill will (wishing for karmic retribution)
    3. Blame
    4. The plan to retaliate

3. Revenge in Culture and Entertainment

• Why Revenge Narratives Are Popular (13:08): Richo notes that films and myths thrive on stories where the villain receives "just" punishment, creating catharsis for viewers by indulging our innate desire for retribution.
  • Quote: "They all end with the hurture is hurt. And they don’t keep in mind that the hurter is someone who has been hurt." (13:55, Richo)

4. Non-Retaliation as a Spiritual Practice

• “Wise as Serpents, Gentle as Doves” (14:45): Richo asserts that non-retaliation doesn’t mean being a doormat; rather, it’s the pursuit of wisdom and non-violence, fostering forgiveness and connection over perpetuating cycles of hurt.
  • Quote: "You can’t be caring if you’re retaliating. ... Retaliation I see as the opposite of love." (15:35, Richo)

5. Why We Retaliate Against Those We Love

• Origins in Intimacy and Childhood (17:14): Retaliation in intimate relationships can stem from:

  • Resentment at needing someone ("How dare you make me love you so now I need you—this is terrible.")

  • Fear of closeness ("If there’s a fear of closeness, you’re better off retaliating, which re-establishes distance.")

  • Transference of unresolved parental issues.

  • Quote: "We will hurt the one we love because deep down we resent the fact that we need that person." (17:38, Richo)

6. Grief as the Root Emotion Hidden by Revenge

• Retaliation Masks Vulnerability (20:45): Richo ties revenge to a desire to avoid grief—retaliation becomes a defense against feeling powerlessness and sadness rooted in our earliest relationships.
  • Quote: "The hope for revenge shall hide our inward woe." (from Shakespeare, Troilus and Cressida, 22:00, Richo)

7. Building Non-Retaliation as a “Muscle”

• Practice and Spiritual “Reps” (24:22): Developing the ability to forgo revenge is likened to building muscle—it requires ongoing, deliberate practice.
  • Quote: "It’s a daily practice to build special muscle that love is." (24:22, Richo)

8. The Four-Step Process for Letting Go of Revenge

(26:44) Caitlin explicitly prompts Richo to walk through his four-step antidote to vengeful impulses:

1. Grieve: Allow yourself to feel sadness, healthy anger, and fear.
2. Say “Ouch”: Assertively and honestly declare the impact without aggression.
3. Offer Dialogue: Open space for non-violent communication and potential reconciliation.
4. Send Goodwill: Wish the person well and “detach with love”—a cornerstone of Buddhist loving-kindness. - Quote: "Whenever you decide that you want to act from a higher self than ego, you are suddenly gifted with virtues that were always in you but suddenly come to life." (25:07, Richo)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Retaliation is not creative. It’s not something new from you. It’s just a copycat." (11:57, Richo)
• "You’d have to want to be somebody different to do any of this. If you want to go on feeling good that you got back at the so-and-so, this book is useless." (27:57, Richo)
• "If equal affection cannot be, let the more loving one be me." —Audrey W.H. Auden, referenced by Richo as his favorite affirmation (30:01)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:38]: What inspired the book—public retaliation and the search for alternatives
• [08:41]: Neuroscience of the short-lived pleasure of revenge (Milton quote)
• [09:24]: The distinction between pardon and forgiveness; four steps to letting go
• [13:08]: Why cultural narratives glorify revenge
• [14:45]: Non-retaliation and the “serpent/dove” metaphor
• [17:14]: Roots of revenge in relationships—resentment, fear, transference
• [20:45]: Grief as the core hidden by vengeance; Shakespeare’s insight
• [24:22]: Love as a muscle; the practice of non-retaliation
• [26:44]: The Four-Step Process to move beyond revenge impulses
• [30:01]: Favorite affirmation: letting the “more loving one” be oneself

Reflection & Podcast Hosts’ Takeaways

• Who Do You Want to Be? (32:49): Forgiveness is not contingent on the “deservedness” of the other, but on your own identity and values.

  • Quote (Caitlin): "You decide who you want to be … why not surprise someone with kindness?"
  • Quote (Ben): "Do you seek revenge? Do you want to make other people miserable because you think that'll make you feel better?"

• Grown-Up Emotional Responses (34:22): Sharing an anecdote about Marie Louise (Napoleon’s wife), Ben illustrates the mature alternative to revenge—wishing someone well, just not nearby.

Recommended Related Reading (as per episode)

• Sweeter Than Revenge by David Richo (main book discussed)
• How to Be an Adult in Relationships by David Richo
• With the End in Mind by Kathryn Mannix (on forgiveness, letting go at the end of life)

Concluding Thought

Dr. Richo’s work, as discussed in the episode, convincingly reframes the question of revenge: it’s not about what others “deserve,” but about who you choose to become. His four-step process and call for inner transformation challenge listeners to do the difficult, creative, and ultimately freeing work of letting go—so that we might live more courageously, lovingly, and lightly.

For the full four-step process and more practical insight into transforming reactive patterns, listeners are encouraged to explore Sweeter Than Revenge and Dr. Richo’s related books.