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- [00:09]
A
Welcome to Simplify. I'm Caitlin Schiller.
- [00:11]
B
And I'm Ben Schuman Stoller.
- [00:13]
A
Hi, Ben.
- [00:13]
B
We're back.
- [00:14]
A
We're back. Hooray.
- [00:15]
B
Yeah. We're killing it.
- [00:18]
A
Yeah.
- [00:19]
B
Why?
- [00:19]
C
Why?
- [00:20]
B
Why not?
- [00:20]
A
I don't know. I feel like we're killing it is something. It's sort of like calling yourself an ally or a feminist. It's like something you can't say about yourself, but other people can say about you. But that's fine. I mean.
- [00:32]
B
All right, fine. Let's get into the episode.
- [00:34]
A
That was motivating. It was nice. Okay, so let's kind of set the tone.
- [00:36]
C
Let's kill it.
- [00:37]
B
Let's kill it.
- [00:38]
A
All right. Great.
- [00:39]
B
Leadership.
- [00:41]
A
Yes.
- [00:41]
B
I mean, new leaders, especially. That's what we're talking about today, right?
- [00:44]
A
We're talking about all kinds of leaders, but also new leaders. Yeah, we're talking about leadership. With today's guest, Deborah Collet. Deb has worked in people and culture teams for well over a decade. And we all actually worked together at Blinkist, where she was, among other things, VP of people. And she built a lot of the cultural systems that made. Made us love working at Blinkist, I think. And beyond that, she's also kept her own practice on the side for years, a coaching practice. And she's been deepening it and enriching it over the last few years, focusing on coaching new leaders into the best versions of themselves.
- [01:16]
B
But also, Deb's kind of a badass even beyond this, like, coaching practice. Right?
- [01:19]
A
Deb is a badass beyond the coaching practice in a lot of ways. She is a huge traveler. She's worked at, like, big corporations like l'. Oreal. But she also is a trained shaman.
- [01:31]
B
Right.
- [01:32]
A
She is an expert in rituals, which actually ties into her work with leaders and businesses way more than you might think. Because what is a system at work if not a series of rituals that hold a people together? Yes, it's really relevant and I think very cool. We don't talk actually about any of that stuff at all. This is a pretty straightforward leadership conversation. But I just think it's nice to have that sort of extra flavor of who you're talking to. Deb is also French, as you will hear from the accent, very charming. And, yeah, she's just. She's a wise, grounded, smart person who is doing the work of putting more leaders into the world, the type of which we want to see. And she wants to see people who come with their full humanity and welcome that in others.
- [02:16]
B
So what should we listen out to in the interview, before we play it,
- [02:21]
A
I really enjoy the part of the conversation where we talk about what makes a good leader in 2026. And of course we have to talk about AI. And we do. And I think that is a really interesting question on people's minds right now. What does it mean to be a leader in the age of AI? So, yeah, listen up for that.
- [02:37]
B
All right, well, let's play the tape and you and I will be back in the bookend as always. We'll talk about books.
- [02:41]
A
Let's do it.
- [02:41]
B
All right, here's you and Deb Cole.
- [02:49]
A
Hi, Deb. Thanks so much for joining me today.
- [02:52]
C
Thank you so much for having me, Caitlin.
- [02:54]
A
It is such a treat. Deb, I could go on and on about you and introduce you, but I would love to hear how you like to introduce yourself.
- [03:05]
C
Well, I'm Deb. I'm from Paris, if you cannot hear it already from my accent. My background is in people and culture, AKA hr. Yeah, essentially I've been working with leaders for the last 15 years and also leading teams myself and yeah, doing a lot of different things in the realm of people and culture. And today I'm focusing on leadership development. So I do training and also one on one coaching for startup leaders.
- [03:38]
A
Aha. How did you get into doing the work that you do?
- [03:44]
C
That's a great question. I think trial and error. Like, I tried a lot of different things after my studies or during my studies actually. I did marketing and PR and hated all of it. And yeah, one day I just met a lovely HR woman who told me I would be great at hr. And at first I thought it was very silly and I had this. This really just like, idea of like HR as being this very dusty, boring corporate job. So I really, like. It wasn't appealing to me at all. But in the end I just tried it and I absolutely loved it. I think it's about just being with people like humans and psychology and human relationships. I think it's just endlessly interesting for me. Like, I feel like I just never stop learning. So I absolutely love it.
- [04:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And. And specifically today, as you said, we wanted to talk about leadership and you work particularly with. With new leaders right now, is that correct?
- [04:55]
C
Yeah, new leaders. And any leader who wants to really develop their leadership skills, like any leader who hasn't gotten formal training would. Would come and work with me.
- [05:05]
A
Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. I'm thinking back to when I was a new leader and all of the challenges I had. They were many. What are the things that you see people come to you for. Are there like, patterns and themes?
- [05:20]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I think the main topic that keeps coming is delegation. I think it completely makes sense because you're promoted because you're good at your job, you're good at individual contributor. And therefore, yeah, you have to learn to let go and lose control and like, deliver things through others. And it's just. Yeah, it's not something that's. That comes easily or that's natural for most people. So I would say that that's the first one. The second one, which I definitely struggle with when I started as a leader, is surprise, surprise, imposter syndrome. Yeah, like, do I deserve this? Why did I get this job? Especially if you were promoted internally and you're now managing former peers or worse. Worse, you were competing with former peers for that leadership role and you got it and they didn't. Yeah, that's, that's a big one. And so, yeah, you're really wondering, you know, what do I have that others don't and what, what makes me a good leader and where do I even begin? You know, like, and then that's when also self doubt sort of kicks in. You know, like, am I doing this right? There is no. Like, very often, you know, you don't get handed a leadership playbook. You just kind of get the promotion, you update your LinkedIn profile and your job title and then that's it. You start, you know, doing it and your identity has to catch up somehow. And also you have to, you know, pick up new skills along the way. And often you don't get support for that. Oh, wow.
- [07:02]
A
I never really thought of it exactly that way before. That your identity has to catch up.
- [07:08]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's a big transformation. Right. Like, it totally is.
- [07:11]
A
That makes so much sense.
- [07:13]
C
Yeah, you're becoming a new version of yourself. And yeah, that requires just upskilling, you
- [07:20]
A
know, how do you help people with that identity shift?
- [07:26]
C
I think coaching is the best tool for, you know, shifting your identity and just shifting your, your belief system and the story you tell about yourself. Right. Like going from, oh, I'm this individual contributor, maybe I'm also a top performer, which is why I got promoted as well, to like, oh, now I create impact and value in my team because I enable others. I know that's a very different job. Like, leadership is about service and, you know, making other people shine and enabling them and yeah, it's just so different.
- [08:05]
A
Yeah, absolutely. The times that I have been a leader in the past, I remember struggling to take my hand off of the reins, because I'm a person who is used to just getting it all done by myself. And you already mentioned that one thing that new leaders struggle with, or just leaders in general struggle with, is delegation. And you're moving from doing things yourself to doing things through others. Are there ways or tactics that you.
- [08:34]
C
You.
- [08:34]
A
You apply to help leaders sort of make this transition?
- [08:41]
C
Yeah, as you said, again, like, it's a very classic one. You know, delegation. And often what comes up for leaders? Oh, you know, it's just faster if I do it myself or, like, I'm so. I'm so busy, I don't have time to explain. I'm just gonna get it done real quick. And, you know, in that process, you forget that you are becoming the bottleneck for your team. And, you know, the time that you don't have now to explain, at some point, it's gonna. Yeah, it's gonna compound because then what happens is your team just starts coming to you every time, you know, there is a problem, expecting you to. To solve it. And, yeah, the other thing that people often say also is, like, what if they mess this up? You know, like, yeah, what if they can't do it as well as me? And, you know, sometimes it's true. Like, maybe, you know, you. You've been there for longer. Maybe you are the expert on a topic, but if you keep doing that, you're also not investing in your team and not. You're not allowing them to grow. And again, you're the bottleneck in your team. So, yeah, the. The way I help people through that is, you know, just start with a task audit, like, lay out all your tasks, like, all the recurring ones, and truly ask yourself, what are the tasks that only I can do? And typically, this is things like, you know, strategy. And often things are, by the way, that are really, like, part of your. Your job description as a leader. And what are the. All of the other things that I can delegate. And then ask yourself, who can do it on the team? And sometimes, you know, the answer is nobody. Like, nobody can do it. Maybe they don't have the skills, but, okay, but, like, who has the potential to do it? You know, who would learn by doing it? And, yeah, what would be a healthy stretch on your team? And then I think the most important question you can ask yourself is, what does success look like? Like, what do. What's the. What's the outcome that I expect? What's the definition I've done? And really clearly communicate that. Like, yeah, just set the expectation or the standard for what you want it to be, and then just let your team run with it. Like, leave the how up to them. Just tell them the what and then support them along the way. Right. Like, you just don't want to, like, drop something on their desk and they've never done it before, and then, you know, they're really struggling. You want to make sure you just keep checking in, checking in on a regular basis and stay close so that if anything comes up, yeah, people can reach out. And again, like, when you start doing this, I know it's very difficult in the beginning, but you'll realize, okay, I'm actually, like, investing in my team. And, yes, I have to invest time now to, like, upskill them and delegate those things to them now, but long term, I'm going to get that time back.
- [11:45]
A
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It reminds me when you were talking, it reminded me of this thing that, gosh, a mentor of mine told me. Not about work, but actually about relationships. And of course, you know, relationships tie so intricately into work. But she said, caitlin, if you keep not telling him what he's doing wrong, or if you keep not saying why you're dissatisfied, or if you keep not letting him share the burden, you are depriving him of his lessons. And it sounds kind of like that. If you keep not delegating to your team, if you keep not sharing with them what needs to get done, you're depriving them of stepping into their full potential.
- [12:29]
C
Absolutely. Absolutely. And actually, that's another challenge, you know, that I often hear about from the leaders I work with. Is it. And it's also something that not just leaders struggle with. I think we all struggle with as humans is difficult conversations and, like, how to handle, like, negative feedback, low performance issues, how to fire someone. Like, nobody wants to do that. Nobody's good at that. Like, oh, my God, no. You know, like, it's just terrible. And we all want to avoid it because it's so uncomfortable. And nobody ever taught us how to do it. We suck at it in our private lives. We suck at it at work. You know, like, but we gotta do it because I think we also have to remember the difference between being nice and being kind. You know, like, being nice is, like, very surface level. Like, oh, you know, I'm just gonna say something nice to you, give you praise, or, you know, positive feedback. And being kind is okay. Like, I'm, you know, I'm still gonna be nice, but also I'm gonna allow you to grow because it's my Job as your manager.
- [13:40]
A
Yeah, it's a huge challenge Giving, giving tough feedback or just starting a hard conversation. How do you help leaders gather their courage to deliver critical feedback? Do you, do you have tools for this?
- [13:55]
C
Yes. I think the first thing is often the anticipation is worse than the actual conversation. So when we know we have to have that uncomfortable of conversation we're avoiding, we might think about it, you know, all the time or like, you know, it's just kind of like this lingering anxiety we feel and the longer we wait, the worse it gets. And so just remembering that like, you know, the conversation overall is just going to take a few minutes and it's probably, it's probably better to deal with it now than just think about it for weeks, you know, so I think that's the first reframe I always offer. And then the other thing, before even talking about tools on like how to, you know, structure those conversations is just identify the fear that you know, that's behind your avoidance. So maybe you're afraid that you're going to be seen as a bad person or you're afraid that you're gonna hurt the relationship with this person, you know, which maybe you've spent months or years, you know, building. You're afraid it's gonna like damage the trust. You're afraid of how they're gonna react. Maybe you don't, you're not gonna know how to handle their reaction. Maybe you're afraid you're gonna freeze or snap at them, you know, so what is it that you're afraid of? And as soon as you're able to identify that and name it and be aware of it, it's gonna lose its grip automatically and then the next thing is to just prepare for it because again, we suck at it. So have a structure, like have an intention for where you want the conversation to go and have a plan in case, again in case you freeze or you know, you know, you might have people pleasing tendencies and maybe you are afraid you're going to over apologize or sort of like backtrack, you know, if you see that, you know, they're not really happy about what you're saying. Definitely been guilty of this myself for sure. And I know for sure. Yeah, I also tend to freeze in conversations. So yeah, gotta have a plan. I actually came up with this little framework I call clear. So yeah, it stands for connect, like connect human to human when you're having the conversation. So don't just dive in, right, you know, with the bad news and, but just, yeah, connect. Then it's lead. Lead with the message. So don't beat around the bush. Just say it. And then E is evidence and examples, like, you know, bring some specific things that you've observed that led you to believe. I don't know xyz. And then very important is a. Is ask. Like ask and listen and shut up. You know, like, like really try to understand their perspective because maybe there's something you're missing. Maybe they're having a hard time at home, you know, and it's, it's impacting their work, for example, and you know, there's no way you could have known that, you know, so just get their, their side of the story, their perspective. Hopefully you want to get to R, which is resolution. Think about. Okay, like, now that we've had this conversation, which was not just like a one way I drop feedback on you and. But it's a conversation, it's a dialogue. Yeah. What do we do about this? How do we move forward? How can I support you as a leader to improve on those things, for example? Yeah, I'll say that's pretty much it. Oh, and maybe one last thing is always think about how they might react. So in my back pocket, I always have answers to what I call nasty questions. So like, you know, like, those are like the, the unexpected, difficult pushbacks I might get.
- [18:08]
A
Oh, my God. Give me an example.
- [18:15]
C
An example. I mean, I would have to think about a situation. Like, for example, okay, let's say you're having a conversation with someone because they haven't been performing well.
- [18:26]
A
Yeah.
- [18:27]
C
And I don't know, they could say, well, you haven't given me clear guidance in the beginning. You know, something like that. And you know, this is something you could have done better. And so you can already prepare. Yeah. And say, yeah, I admit, like, I, you know, I could have done better and you know, the result is still the same. Something like that. And yeah, just parenthesis. It's something I also used a lot when I was a VP of people. And we would, you know, make big changes in the organization and we would always think about what are the objections, essentially, you know, like, and then craft the messaging around that, like anticipating the objections when we would present the new solution. So it's kind of the same here. Like, just anticipate the pushback.
- [19:23]
A
That's really good advice. I wish I had this advice. My first job in Berlin, I was head of content, and I ended up having to having to fire someone. And I walked into the room, waited for her to arrive, I had her paperwork, and I Explained to her, look, you haven't been performing. We've talked about this twice before. I'm really sorry, but, you know, this is your last day. This is it. I need you to sign this paper. And she sat there and she said, no. I was like, what do you mean, no? She was like, no, I don't accept this. I'm not signing it. I'm not fired. And we sat there in silence and just stared at each other. And I was like, I'm sorry, but this is what's happening. And I ended up. I was young. I was. I mean, comparatively to what I am now, I think I was, like, in my. My late 20s. But this was my first big leadership position, and I ended up having to call in the HR person to support me because I had no idea what to do.
- [20:27]
C
Yeah. Wow, that is such a good example. This has never happened to me, but I've definitely heard this. This. This tends to happen. So the trick here is to say the decision has already been made. And this conversation is not about rehashing the past. And, you know, we've already discussed those things before. Now the decision is made, and now it's about how do we move forward. Now that, you know, you're being let go, Here is how we can support you. These are the next steps for you. You can claim unemployment benefits. All of these things we can talk about, but we. We're not going to have a conversation about the past. This is future forward. Yeah.
- [21:07]
A
Right. And the result is not up for debate.
- [21:10]
C
Exactly. Yeah.
- [21:12]
A
I really wish I had had this advice, you know, 15 years ago.
- [21:17]
C
Yeah.
- [21:19]
A
Okay. So the clear framework, that was actually really helpful. Thank you. Another thing that you said people come to you needing help with and that you struggled with in the past is imposter syndrome. And everybody's heard about this and think that probably most people listening have experienced it to a certain extent. I mean, I know I have. Can you tell me about your experience of it and how you help people who are going through it?
- [21:47]
C
Yeah. So the first thing I want to say is, you're absolutely right. I think the last time I looked up research on imposter syndrome, I was shocked by what I saw. I think it's 85% of people have experienced already imposter syndrome over the course of their professional lives.
- [22:04]
A
Wow.
- [22:05]
C
So that's like. Yeah, it's crazy. It's everyone. Basically, for me, it has to do with. With confidence, which I think is the byproduct of action. So the more I do something, the more I gather evidence. That I can do it and that I'm actually not so bad at it. And the more, again, like, the more my identity changes, you know, the more I'm like, oh, I can handle this. Oh, I've done this. Look at, you know, and so how I see myself and my belief about myself just slowly start changing. And that's kind of how I approach it. I always tell people, like, build a success or a love folder. Like every time you get some praise, compliment, or success screenshot, it put it in your folder. And when you're having a, you know, down moment where you feel like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing and who am I to do this and that, just open the folder and read through it and remember, you know, how many people you've helped, the impact you've had already on people's lives. And yeah, it helps to, to just put things into perspective.
- [23:28]
A
Yeah. Speaking of shifts, you and I have talked a little bit about this. What are you seeing happening now for. For leaders who work in bigger organizations? How is what's expected of them changing?
- [23:43]
C
Yeah, I think we have to talk about AI.
- [23:46]
A
Good. I wanted to get there anyway.
- [23:48]
C
Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's changing everything about how we work. I think in many ways it's, it's doing great. It's doing great things. Right. It's. It's a supercharger. And just the fact that you now have basically a leadership coach at your fingertips is pretty amazing. Right. Like before, you know, when I had to do performance review for my whole team of 15 people, back in the days, it would take me an hour per person, you know, so that's like 15 hours plus, you know, collecting all the feedback. Before, it was just a ton of work that was very disruptive and you really had to book two weeks to kind of go through it, and it was just a painful process. Now you can just upload your company values on cloud and maybe the documentation that HR sent you and a few best practices and maybe the notes you've taken in one on ones and then, boom, you've got already a really good draft you can start with, playing around with. So, yeah, I think that's wonderful. And I think most of the mundane tasks of leadership are also being taken over by AI now with status updates and building presentations and drafting reports, all of that can easily be automated with AI, which means that also the bar has gone up now. You don't have any more excuses for, oh, I didn't have time to like, build trust with my team or to really, intentionally create psychological safety or have career development conversations which are really, really important, you know, to drive engagement. Before you had had an excuse. Now seems like you don't like it seems like we expect you to do all of these things because you're able to automate some, a lot of the operational work. So I think paradoxically, like the more AI we integrate into our working lives, the more human we have to be at work and the more human we have to be as a leader.
- [25:52]
A
Wow, that is not what I was expecting you to say, but that's really cool.
- [26:01]
C
Yeah. And the other thought I have around AI is I don't know if you've heard of AI's psychopancy, that sort of
- [26:13]
A
the phenomenon of AI telling you that you're great and what you're doing is great and everything is perfect and it just kind of like spirals people up into delusion.
- [26:22]
C
Exactly, yes. So AI essentially is telling you what you want to hear. They're like that really good friend, you know, really supportive friend, but they're not telling you about your blind spots, they're not trying to like challenge your perspective. And I think specifically, specifically for leadership, I think that's dangerous because a lot of the things we have to do in leadership is just navigate interpersonal dynamics and conflicts and relationships with people. Especially in fast growing companies and startups, there's always going to be a lot of friction and collaboration is hard. And I think if you go to Cloud or ChatGPT and tell them about something that has happened with a co worker and try to resolve it this way, I think it's a really bad idea. I think it's only going to reinforce your biases, it's only going to validate your experience and I think it's a recipe for disaster. So I think in this case, I think again, AI is really good for automating operational tasks, but for anything that's about human interaction, anything that requires like good judgment. Good, good discernment.
- [27:38]
A
Yeah.
- [27:39]
C
Then I think you should stay away from AI, at least for now in 2026.
- [27:44]
A
Yeah. Not asking AI to make a judgment call is really important because that's the whole thing. AI doesn't have human judgment, it has patterns of human judgment, but it doesn't have your human judgment in the moment based on everything you know about a whole human system.
- [28:00]
C
System, exactly. AI cannot reason also.
- [28:05]
A
Right, right. And it's really being heralded as like this, this fix all for everything. I've been really enjoying incorporating into my work a little bit more, but I Also see the limitations. I think the. Maybe you and I have spoken about this before, but the thing that I really notice is that when you step back and you. When I re. I. I do a lot of writing. So when I read something I've allowed AI to do a draft of, I often find that it has this, this top layer of sense making. It seems like if you don't read it too closely, it all makes sense. But if you break it down and you actually look at it sentence by sentence or ask yourself at the end, what did I just read and what did it mean? Then there's no, there's no cohesive meaning.
- [28:50]
C
It's like first impression is like, oh, this all sounds great. And then you're like, ah, this is actually just fluff.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah, that's like. That's the thing that, that's the work that human beings do together. That's the hard work that you do. Thinking on your own. When you're, when you're doing morning pages or you're doing any kind of journaling, that's. That's where meaning comes from. It comes from talking with one another and being with one another and thinking hard about life experiences.
- [29:19]
C
Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And I think another thing I want to say. I don't know if I'm going to phrase it well, but okay, phrase it
- [29:26]
A
any way you want. You can also totally go back and do it again. I'll edit this for us.
- [29:31]
C
But I think, you know, there is a magic that happens when two people are having a conversation. Like we're having right now, for example, is. There is so much magical with you, Deb?
- [29:41]
A
Sorry,
- [29:44]
C
but I think like there's this sort of resonance that happens and if I was having this conversation with someone else, I would probably say completely different things. But right here, right now, in this moment, I'm having this conversation with you. And like you're influencing somehow with your question, but also just with your presence and your, your ear, how you're listening. This influences how I'm going to respond to you. I, I'm not sure if this has been researched, but it's really something I've observed, you know, in interactions with people. And I think that the magic of human beings coming together either in a one on one capacity or as a company, and it's something that you don't have with AI Deb, you talk to
- [30:33]
A
so many different leaders and different kinds of leaders in different positions and companies and areas that vary. What do you think makes a great Leader today in 2026?
- [30:47]
C
I think the first quality is humility, because so much is changing so fast, especially with the AI. Again, anyone who thinks they have the answers is already behind, you know, So I think humility is going to be really, really important, and not just for leaders, but for anyone, really. And adaptability and curiosity, I think that has already become true since the pandemic, since 2020. I think the best leaders are the ones who are gonna stay curious and ask questions. And, yeah, are gonna be people who aren't threatened by not knowing something. You know, they're just, they're confident they're gonna figure it out.
- [31:38]
A
Yeah.
- [31:40]
C
And then I think the final skill is, I think the ability to lead through change. Like, understanding how the change curve works and like, being able to identify, okay, are people at the beginning of the change curve or in the middle or at the end is. Yeah, is really important to then, like, lead them through change, essentially. So, and just to explain also the change curve, I was just going to
- [32:11]
A
ask you, could you say what the change curve is?
- [32:13]
C
Yeah, so it was, it was. Can you say coined or like, it was. Yeah, coined by a psychiatrist called Elizabeth Kubler Ross. I think it was in the nineteen nineteen sixties or if I remember correctly. And yeah, she created that curve to explain the grief process of, like, how people move through grief when somebody dies. And now it's been used also to describe any type of change that people go through. Like the emotional process of going through a big change, a big disruption. And so the top of the curve is always about shock and maybe denial. And then, you know, there is resistance, maybe anger, maybe, you know, bargaining, like negotiating, trying to find a different outcome. And then the middle of the curve is depression. It's also called the dark swamp of despair.
- [33:13]
A
It's like when you're like, wow, drama.
- [33:16]
C
Yeah, I don't know if I can do this. Like, it really sucks. And then, and then you, eventually, you go back up just with time, you know, you start just accepting, maybe even seeing the silver lining of the change. And eventually you, you go through it and you're usually also stronger after it. So, yeah, that's the change curve. And we all move differently through the change curve depending on the change itself, depending on our background and personal, like, history, biography, and. Yeah, I think as a leader, you have to be able to understand that curve and recognize where people are and, yeah, help them move towards acceptance a little bit faster.
- [34:09]
A
That's so nice. Thank you. That was, that was interesting. I, I, You've shocked me a few times in this interview now by Telling me things I was not expecting to hear. Yeah, the qualities of a great leader were so thoughtful and.
- [34:23]
C
Thanks.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah, I, I really liked that. I think the last thing I want to ask you, or maybe second to last, is the question I always ask, which is if there were one thing that you would love people to know about leadership in general, what would that thing be? It can be as specific or as general as you'd like it to be.
- [34:48]
C
Wow, that's such a good question. I think I have to sit with it for a few seconds.
- [34:52]
A
That's fine. Take your time.
- [34:55]
C
Yeah. So the most important thing about leadership, I would like people to know.
- [35:01]
A
I don't even know if it has to be important. Maybe it's just something you've observed, something that you always find yourself talking about or pointing out, something that you just really wish that you could share with everyone about the subject you know so much about.
- [35:16]
C
Yeah, I guess one step at a time. I think when people are promoted for the first time, they're first time manager, they've never done it, they think, oh my gosh, I have this big mountain in front of me. You know, I. Some people just give up, right then, you know, they're like, oh, it's too much. You know, I just, I'm just gonna do it, I'm gonna wing it because I don't have time, I don't have the capacity. Other people on the other end of the spectrum are like, oh my God, I have. Now I have to spend my weekends listening to podcasts. Hello, by the way, if you're listening, listening to podcasts about leadership or I have to read all these books, I have to get blinkists and read all these book summaries. You know, they put a lot of pressure on themselves and I think it can be very overwhelming because leadership. And that's again, that brings me back to why I love the topic of leadership so much. It's like hr, like, it's so broad. It's about human beings and psychology and there are so many skills you need to pick up from management to coaching, to building trust and psychological safety. And so it's going to take you years to like feel comfortable with that toolbox and for it to be, for it to become second nature. But I would say start where you are. What are the current pain points and issues in your team and then try to find tools for that. Either go to your HR manager, go to your boss, ask your partner, you know, talk to AI, get a training, get a coach and deal with that first problem. And then the next problem is going to come and you deal with that and so on and so forth. And, and then once you do that, after six months, you're like, oh wow, like I've resolved three problems already and I feel much better now dealing with X, Y and Z. Like I do better performance reviews or I'm better at having difficult conversations, you know. And yeah, the more you do that, the more again, you build confidence. You're showing yourself that you can do it. And yeah, the more your identity shifts from just being an individual contributor to being a manager and a leader.
- [37:36]
A
Oh, I love that. That's so helpful. It sounds like what you're saying is that somebody who's, who's, let's say succeeding at being a leader or doing a good job being a leader, it doesn't mean that they have all the answers or come equipped with knowing how to do everything right. It sounds like they need to just come equipped with curiosity to diagnose problems and then the bravery to go out and look for an answer.
- [38:00]
C
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [38:02]
A
That's really nice. Thanks Deb. Last question. Do you have a favorite book on leadership or leadership resource?
- [38:11]
C
Oh my gosh, yes. I have so many. Let me see. There's one I love that's been sort of the books I always go back to, not just for leadership but for company culture in general is Work Roles by Laszlo Buck, who's the former Chief HR officer of Google. Yeah, he's just. What I love about him and his approach is they had a massive research team at Google, so they've done a lot of experiments about what separates a good leader from an excellent leader. What are the skills that excellence leaders have that other readers don't have? Stuff like that. Like they just, they wanted like scientists and they just asked a lot of questions and they researched and yeah, so the book is just, it's a lot of those experiments they've done at Google and sharing what they've learned along the way. So yeah, it's, it's really good. That's, I think that's the one I would recommend.
- [39:25]
A
Amazing. Okay, Deb, that was wonderful. Thank you. And what are you working on lately? If people want to, want to find out more from you and how you talk about and teach and coach through leadership, where can they find you? And, and yeah, what resources do you have?
- [39:40]
C
Yeah, I actually have a leadership bootcamp which is a 12 week hybrid of training and coaching program with different leaders from different organizations. It's an open program so anybody can sign up and I also give one on One, coaching for leaders and founders at, let's say, series B plus startups. And the other thing is I have a free seven day difficult conversation challenge. So, yeah, completely free. You can sign up, we'll put the link in the comments. And yeah, essentially you get one video a day that helps you to prepare and have a difficult conversation. So, yeah, I hope this would be helpful.
- [40:30]
A
I didn't even know you were doing that. That's awesome.
- [40:34]
C
Yes.
- [40:34]
A
Okay, wonderful. Thank you, Deb.
- [40:37]
C
Thank you.
- [40:44]
B
Welcome to the bookend.
- [40:46]
A
Welcome.
- [40:47]
B
We're back.
- [40:48]
A
Okay, so we talked about leadership. We talked about a lot of different things. I liked particularly when we talked about having tough conversations.
- [40:56]
B
Yeah. You also said you liked what she said about being a good leader in 2026. Can you. How would you summarize that? How would you sort of recap that in your own words?
- [41:07]
A
Showing up with humility. So this whole thing about being willing to learn and knowing that you don't have the answers. So I think I boiled it down to something like humility and resilience. So showing up with. Showing up without the preconceived notions that you're going to have all the answers, but being willing to learn and being okay with that. What did you. Was there anything that stuck with you or anything that made you think about your days of being a manager and working in leadership?
- [41:38]
B
I. Yeah, I wrote down. I mean, I have good notes.
- [41:43]
A
I think that was not a challenge.
- [41:46]
B
This idea of starting where you are is pretty cool. That's also part of maybe the humility point. But like putting pressure on yourself when you start a new position, facing a new challenge I think is very natural. And I like the way Deb talked about. Yeah, start where you are. Start with your strengths, work on your weaknesses. You know, like, accept the change, work through the change. He talks a lot about change theory
- [42:13]
A
and it's an identity change. I think that was the thing that really stuck out for me too. I had thought about it that way before.
- [42:18]
B
Your identity has to catch up with you, right?
- [42:19]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah, that's a really good point. And she has this very visual example, like you just change. You change the profile on LinkedIn. But of course that's not good. Nothing actually changes when you do that. So I really identify with that. I mean, I think you have to live it out.
- [42:44]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's one thing to have these, have that blurb on a digital page with your face on it.
- [42:50]
B
Right.
- [42:51]
A
Say I am, you know, a senior tier leader. It's another thing to understand what that actually means and live through it every day.
- [42:58]
B
Yeah. And that's why I do. I agree also. I mean, I did a coaching process when I became a leader for the first time, and we've talked about this on Simplify, I think. But what I found really helpful was just writing out the values, like writing out what kind of leader do I want to be? Just having some time to think about that. It wasn't a crazy process. It was just being clear, how do I want to show up? What kind of leader do I want to be? And then create some way to hold myself accountable to that. And it made it much easier to deal with the imposter syndrome, the overwhelm, the social challenges of being a leader of colleagues. So I'm on board with all this. What else did you write down that you wanted to talk about?
- [43:39]
A
I wrote down the change curve and how everybody is at a different place in the change curve when you're introducing a new idea to employees and how you have to be really sensitive to that. She used that Elisabeth Kubler Ross framework, which is, you know, for grieving initially. And I guess it made me think about how change, even when it's a good change, inevitably does bring some grief, because in order to say hello to something new, you're also having to say goodbye to something that you were before. So becoming a leader, you're grieving an old identity as well. You're stepping into the new one. But you're also kind of sad because maybe you can't sit at the same lunch table anymore, and maybe you can't talk to your former friends who are now your direct reports about things that you know. And that's really challenging.
- [44:24]
B
Yeah. So should we talk about books?
- [44:26]
A
Yeah, sure. What's your recipe?
- [44:28]
B
My recommendation is a very famous business y communication book called Radical Candor.
- [44:36]
A
Oh, yes. Kim Scott.
- [44:39]
B
Kim Scott. That's right. We've done some work with her and Kim Scott. The Radical Candor framework explains that there's multiple different ways to communicate, and Radical Candor is the best one. So there's. Let's see if we can remember all of them. There's ruinous empathy. There's obnoxious aggression. There's manipulative insincerity. But the best one is Radical Candor, where you care deeply about somebody, but you can tell them why they're failing because you care. They can hear the criticism. So there's also another framework. Like Deb explained, her clear framework. Every coach has a framework that is a thing. Kim Scott's is called Hip Give Hip Feedback.
- [45:26]
A
Really?
- [45:27]
B
Yeah.
- [45:27]
A
What year is this book from?
- [45:30]
B
1864. No, it's hip, like the body part you keep operating on.
- [45:36]
A
Oh, okay. I see.
- [45:39]
B
No, hip is humble, helpful, immediate in person with private criticism and public praise and never about personality. So that's like, a lot of BuzzFeed.
- [45:50]
A
Wow. So it's like lots of H's and lots of P's.
- [45:52]
B
Exactly. It's like, H,
- [45:56]
A
good. Okay.
- [45:57]
B
But there's a couple takeaways you can, like, whatever. About the whole framework. A couple things you can remember from that is praise in public, criticize in private, for example. That's a really good tool.
- [46:06]
C
That is.
- [46:07]
B
And I really like the idea of give feedback in person if possible. Not always possible, but, like, there's a lot of slack channels these days where people are like, you know, hashtag kudos, hashtag praise, or whatever. Like, come on. I think it's better when you can sit in a room with someone and be like, hey, when I saw you take on that project, it was amazing. You took it on so well. And even though we missed the deadline or whatever, they ruled. Good job. And I think that kind of work helps the sincerity and helps it land. And so much of what Deb said she works on with new leaders is difficult conversations and feedback and. And, yeah, Radical Candor is a model that works for a lot of people, which is why it's so famous and successful.
- [46:51]
A
Yeah. Ruinous empathy always sends chills down my spine.
- [46:56]
B
Are you guilty of that?
- [46:57]
A
Oh, absolutely. I have been, for sure, and I think occasionally still am, but I try not to.
- [47:03]
B
Ruinous empathy is exactly what Deb was talking about with the difference between being nice and being kind. Or even, I think in the book it says, you know, being nice and being the boss. People want to be the boss. They're like, okay, I'm the boss now. I have to show. I have to prove myself. I have to, like, lay down the law.
- [47:19]
A
Yeah.
- [47:19]
B
But also, of course, they want to be nice. Like, of course. You know, but maybe that means you can't give hard feedback. And that's not being kind at all. No. Right. As you said in the interview, sometimes you have to give the gift of feedback.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah. Sometimes you do.
- [47:32]
B
What did you bring?
- [47:34]
A
What I brought is a newer book. It's called A New Kind of Intelligence for a World that's Always Changing, and it's by Liz Tran. And basically AQ is agility quotient, not emotional quotient or emotional intelligence quotient. Agility quotient. So how good are you at detecting and riding the wave of change, to use a corny metaphor. And in the book, there are a bunch of different change archetypes, or AQ archetypes. And I took a screenshot of them because they amused me. I wondered which one you were. Ready?
- [48:07]
B
Oh, boy.
- [48:08]
A
So they're astronauts. The way that astronauts anchor, which is a way to deal with change. The way that they anchor others is through courage and their fearlessness in the face of the unknown. It's contagious. And it gives those around them permission to be bolder than they would otherwise dare, which is very cool. Then her other type is novelists. The way that novelists anchor is through vision. When uncertain times make the future feel formless and frightening, they map it and they give it shape. Then there's firefighters. Firefighters anchor through action. Calm, decisive, problem solving that signals to everyone around them that the situation is survivable. And neurosurgeons, they anchor through loyalty, the quiet, unwavering presence that others learn to rely on precisely because it never wavers. Do you identify with any of those?
- [49:02]
B
I mean, I'd like to think I identify with little pieces of all of them.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah.
- [49:06]
B
But I also kind of hate each of them.
- [49:09]
C
You do?
- [49:09]
A
Yeah, I know. I mean, partially. I wanted to read it because I knew you would hate it, but no, I'm still.
- [49:14]
B
We were talking about Generaliz when we had a coffee before the recording number.
- [49:17]
A
Yeah.
- [49:18]
B
And it was, like, five minutes ago. Good.
- [49:20]
A
But, like, look, that's pretty good for
- [49:22]
B
me these days, but I think all my personality tests are always kind of all over the board. I'm, like, also apparently an ambivert.
- [49:29]
A
Oh, yes.
- [49:29]
B
Which I don't think is. Is that a real thing?
- [49:31]
A
I don't know.
- [49:32]
B
I guess it is, but no, I think it's a cool model. And I like the term astronaut. Novelist.
- [49:39]
A
Firefighter.
- [49:39]
B
Firefighter. A neurosurgeon. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can. I wish I was more of a neurosurgeon, but I'm afraid I'm on a spaceship.
- [49:48]
A
Yeah. I actually think that one is the coolest one. I feel like I'm more of a neurosurgeon. And the other ones seem more aspirational and cool to me.
- [49:56]
B
Oh, really?
- [49:57]
A
Like to be an astronaut. Way cooler to give people around the permission to be bolder than they'd otherwise dare. That's so badass.
- [50:03]
B
Yeah. But I wish I could give people a sense of, like, trust and security.
- [50:08]
A
I think you do. You should just, like, pull all your friends. Do you feel trust and security around me?
- [50:14]
B
Would you Let me perform surgery on your brain?
- [50:17]
A
Yes. I mean, if I had to pick a friend, maybe I think you'd take it seriously.
- [50:23]
B
I'd give. You know what? I'd try my best.
- [50:25]
A
I know you would.
- [50:26]
B
I wouldn't take any shortcuts.
- [50:28]
A
So if one of my friends let it be known here has to perform surgery on my brain, it'll be.
- [50:33]
B
I mean, you know, that's a good coaching question for new leaders, though.
- [50:36]
A
What.
- [50:37]
B
What kind of leader do you think you are? An astronaut, a novelist, a firefighter, or a neurosurgeon?
- [50:42]
A
What's your AQ type? Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting. It's not something that you really think about a lot.
- [50:47]
B
No, no, it's good. Yeah. Very useful. Good stuff.
- [50:49]
A
Anyway, so get this book. It's called A New Kind of Intelligence for a World that's Always Changing. It's by Liz Tran, and you can type yourself and kind of learn how to build on your strengths within that type and also shore up the shortcomings of that type.
- [51:03]
B
Very good.
- [51:04]
A
Yeah.
- [51:04]
B
Cool. Awesome episode.
- [51:05]
A
Amazing. All right, then. Simplify is produced by me, Caitlin Schiller. You, Ben Schuman, Stoller, Joa Lucas in Colombidio Studios in the Back of Chapters Bookshop in Berlin, Germany. Till next time, check out.
- [51:19]
B
Checking out. Bye.