← Skin Anarchy
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is a very special episode. We have such an iconic guest with us today. I am such a Stan and have been for a long time. As many of you know her, she created one of the biggest brands in the hair care industry. And I think everybody has tried it. At this point, without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Ali Webb, who is the founder of Dry Bar and now the founder of Messy by Ali Webb. Welcome, Ali. I'm so, so honored to host you.
- [00:24]
B
Thanks so much for having me.
- [00:25]
A
No, it's truly a pleasure and I can't wait to dive in to everything that you're doing now. But I would love to kind of have you walk us down, mem, if you could talk to us about DryBar, because DryBar was a phenomena. You know, it really took the industry by storm and I just want to kind of dive into that. Like, what got you into the hair care industry to begin with and like, where did it all begin for you?
- [00:45]
B
Well, it really all began, you know, when I was a kid growing up in South Florida with like all the humidity in my naturally wavy hair, which I now really embrace and love, hence messy, was just really challenging for me. And, you know, I didn't go to college and just didn't feel called to that and went to beauty school when I was in my early 20s and just like can make the argument to learn how to blow out my own hair. And I just always had this obsession with my hair and hair in general and blowouts and Fast forward to many, many years later after trying many things and having many lives and careers, I had moved to LA when my kids were born. Thought I was going to be a stay at home mom. And you know, arguably the hardest job that there is, you know, being a mom. And as much as I loved being able to stay home with my kids and felt like that was so lucky to be able to do that, I really missed doing something for myself. And so I started this mobile BLOWOUT Business in LA, I guess in Iraq in 2008, 2009. And I, you know, I was only charging 40 bucks to go to women's house to do blowouts, which, you know, is kind of unheard of then and now. And during that time I realized that, you know, there was a really big hole in the marketplace for, you know, an affordable great blowout. And my mobile business was really taking off. But I felt like I wanted to expand but didn't want to do it mobile. So I went to my brother Michael, who's my business partner forever and said, hey, I have this idea to turn my. Basically my mobile business into a brick and mortar. And that's really how the idea for drybar came about. You know, I felt like I knew there were enough women out there like me who were kind of seeking, you know, a great blowout and a great experience, and it just didn't exist. You know, which is, you know, the cornerstone for any great idea or business is like, you know, something we all want that doesn't exist. And so at the right price point and the right experience and customer service and ambiance and all of that, I thought maybe this would work. Having no idea at that time it would turn into what it did. I mean, that was something I don't think any of us really anticipated. But, you know, we started at $35, and, you know, I have such a wealth of knowledge of hair and blowouts that I felt like I was, you know, uniquely qualified to do it. And it worked.
- [02:50]
A
Yeah, no, it definitely worked. I mean, it's so inspiring because I love when I talk to founders who have created, like, a category, because that's, like, a totally different thing than just, like, creating a product within existing space. You know, my questions are always like, well, where did you discover that? Like, wow, this is an entire category? You know, like, this doesn't exist. Like, I know what you just said. Like, that makes sense. Like, you want to something people need, but it's like, when does that happen when you're in your journey where it's like, oh, my God. Like, you know, this is a whole different niche that I've kind of put together, you know, through this whole endeavor.
- [03:22]
B
Well, I think coming up with something that is a problem or something you're trying to solve, and usually that comes from personal necessity. Right. It's like. Like, we obviously didn't invent blowouts. We just created a much better experience for them and a much better price point and, you know, everything that came along with it. And that's, you know, always my advice to other, you know, women or found or just people. I mean, I have two sons who are in the throes of trying to figure out what they're doing in their lives. It's like, you can take something that already exists and make it a hell of a lot better. It's really paying attention. And I think that, like, anybody can think of something that you really enjoy, but you wish it was better in some way, you know, and then there's an opportunity. And I see them around me all the Time, it's like a blessing and a curse. You know, it's like I walk into a restaurant or my favorite coffee shop or whatever it is, and it's like, I love this, but if they did X, Y and Z, it would be even better, you know, and I think that that's, you know, while I didn't set out to change an industry, it just was like, truly, it never even occurred to me. I was just like, I always wanted there to be a place where I could get an affordable great blowout, you know, in a great setting. And I really tried to make it something that I wanted to do, like something that I, you know, as a busy mom woman and, you know, it's why we put the chick flicks on the TV and had Wi Fi and the little cookies, which surprisingly were always such a big fan favorite. It was just like all those little touch made it really special. Not to mention the customer service and how you were treated. And it looked high end but didn't have the high end price tag. I mean, it was just, you know, I can go on and on with all the little things and, and that's really, I think how you make anything successful is like paying attention to all those small details. And unfortunately that's missed a lot in business, you know, and people kind of skim on that stuff or don't think about it. And you know, for me, it's like that intensity around detail, I think is, is what makes you stand out.
- [05:10]
A
Absolutely. No, And I, you know, what I really love about. And this, I've noticed this with a lot of the brands that were kind of in that era of when drybar was starting off was that there was so much like uniqueness back then in the beauty industry. Because like when I discovered Drybar, for me it was a very unique, as a consumer, very unique experience. I was like, I love packaging, I love the branding, I love the feel of the products. And that was amazing as a consumer. But like nowadays I feel like people are just gravitating towards a recipe, you know, of what that kind of brand looks like at the end, you know, and so I would love for you to speak on this about. I mean, you started with a very unique idea, but you scaled it to a 200 million plus acquisition brand, you know, that's huge. But I feel like nowadays people are starting at that end goal, you know what I mean? And kind of working backwards.
- [05:54]
B
Yeah.
- [05:54]
A
And it's like, I'd love for you to kind of speak on this. What is that starting place in that Mindset of, like, when you want to create a brand on that scale.
- [06:01]
B
Well, it is interesting, and I. And while I think it's great that, like, a lot of colleges and stuff are now, you know, having entrepreneurial programs for students, which. Which is great, but I do think understanding your business kind of, I still believe in, like, you know, the crawl, walk, run kind of philosophy of, like, you know, starting small. Figure out what you're doing, be open to pivoting, being nimble and seeing what works and what doesn't. I mean, we changed lots of things as we went as we were growing, you know, and learning and not putting the cart before the horse. You know, it's like, I see also a lot businesses who are like, oh, I have this brand and I want to. Or some sort of retail concept, and I want to franchise it. And it's like, well, is it actually franchisable yet? Is the demand out the door? And so I think it's like, really, like, honing in on what you're doing and making it the best it can be before you start thinking bigger. And not. Not to say that you don't want to think big, but, you know, I think there's kind of a natural cadence, and that's kind of how I approached what we were doing. You know, it was like we had no idea if it was even going to work, you know, and then once it did work, it was like, okay, we need to keep growing and scaling. And then there's just so much to that. We're, you know, having the right people in place, having, you know, systems and all that, which was completely out of my wheelhouse at the time, which I had to kind of learn as we went. My approach is, like, starting small and building something very intentionally and paying attention to what's working and what's not working and where you need to, like, shift and change to get to that end goal. I think it's very hard to work backwards, and I think that that is something that we see a lot because everybody wants to be an entrepreneur, and it's like, I want to make a bunch of money and start this thing. And of course, we've all heard it a million times. It's like, if you're not doing something that you're really passionate about, it's really hard to work hard at it, you know, because it's like, you have to really love it. And. And for me, it was never about the money or growing it big. It was just about doing something that I truly enjoy doing every day, you know, so you kind of have to come from that starting point, too. So it's, you know, it's a lot of things, and they all have to work together. And, you know, not every idea is a good idea. And I talk to a lot of, you know, budding entrepreneurs, and sometimes I'm like, huh, I don't know how that's going to work. And then, you know, and then even a great idea is a dime a dozen. It's like, you have a great idea, but where's the execution? Who's going to run it? How are you going to run it? It's like there's just so many factors into being successful.
- [08:17]
A
Absolutely. No. And, you know, that kind of makes me wonder also, because we hear so many success stories. I feel like nowadays and social media is so good about the highlight reels of everyone's life. You. And that's great. I mean, I, I love celebrating everybody, but I think there's not enough about, like, what it really takes. Right? Like, behind the scenes, you brought up, like, being a busy mom and, and there's so many things in the entrepreneurial journey that I wonder, you know, like, where is that content? Where's that information? So I'd love for you to kind of share some with us, like, some war stories, maybe of like, when you felt like, what am I doing? Or like, you know, where is this going?
- [08:50]
B
It's like every day. I mean, we used to joke that it was like running businesses, like playing Whack a Mole, you know, that carnival game, and someone actually bought in one of our offices because it's truly like, you know, you just don't know what's coming every day. And every day is usually full of a bunch of problems that you didn't plan for and some that you did. And I think in order to be a successful entrepreneur, you have to, like, enjoy that chaos and the craziness that's surely coming every day, especially when you're running a company, you know, in my case that had like 10,000 employees open seven days a week, there was really no break from it, you know, so it was just a constant stream of issues and problems and things that you kind of always have to be. Be okay with, with solving. And I'm such a natural problem solver, like, give me a problem and I'll, you know, try to figure out a solution. So I think that's probably the hardest part is, like, you have to have very thick skin for that. And I think that I developed that, you know, as we went. I mean, there's. There's so many more stories. I mean, even from like, you know, as a consumer of Dryburgh, you know, that like our maybe, you know, this, our phones, when you call to make an appointment, aren't in the shops. You know, we had to have a call center, which was also like. I was like, I don't want to be in the call center business. I don't know anything about that. But we found that it incredibly hard to answer the phones while you're in the shop. So we had to have someone off site answering the phones, which is a problem in many ways in and of itself. For me, my priority was the customer standing in front of me in the shop and making sure that experience was really great. And then, you know, I mean, gosh, the first week we opened Drybar, I had. I told everybody, let the phones go to voicemail, we'll call people back. Which is not great. But it was a better alternative, you know, so it was just like thing after thing after thing like that. And just they just kept coming up all the time and, you know, not to mention, like, hiring stylists and training them and like, you know, you could find a great stylist who was an amazing hairstylist, but kind of didn't blend in with the, like, over the top customer service that I really wanted. And like, the barrier to entry was like, you have to be a really nice person and you have to be really, like, kind of drink the Kool Aid with customer service and being like over the top kind. And I felt like while we were, you know, delivering great hair, it was the entire experience that I believe made Dreadbar so special. It was like the way you retreated, the way you felt when you walked in. And that took a lot of like, like curating, choreographing to get that right. None of it's easy, you know, it's. It was all very intentional, very challenging, but very worth it, you know, and it just. It was like, I mean, gosh, every day was. Was something. And, you know, in the early days too, the first couple of years, like, I was basically, you know, manager, district manager. So I was fielding all of that in the beginning, which was fun, but it was, I mean, fun. Like, I say that loosely, but I'm also a big believer in, like, you kind of have to do every job as the owner so that you can, you know, inform on that and you really understand it. So it was just wild, you know, in those early days and we were totally always understaffed. You never had enough stylists, and there's a good problem to have. We had so much demand and much less supply. So that was. I mean, it was just problem after problem. But you have to love it, you know, And I did.
- [11:51]
A
No, that's. I love what you said about you have to kind of know, like, you wanted to know how to do everything, because this is something that's, I think, very, very unique in the entrepreneurial world, where it's like, you do have to know your business from inside out. I've heard that many times from a lot of founders, and I'd love for you to expand on that a little bit. Right. Because I think we're living in such a fast culture right now where everything is like, give it to somebody else, Give it to AI Give it to. You know what I mean? Like, allocate, allocate, allocate. And it's like, where do you find that balance as a founder where you're like, Okay, I have 24 hours in a day and I have to get everything done. But then still, knowing your business, down to the DNA, down to every single job and role, I mean, where do you think all of that really is anchored in, you know, especially when you're starting out?
- [12:34]
B
Well, I mean, I think that I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth, because I do think that you do need to have a great team and you do need to be able to delegate, you know, especially as a founder, I think a mistake that I certainly made and something I see people make is like, you being as the founder or CEO or whatever, being kind of the bottleneck for everything, you can run into a lot of trouble that way because it slows things down. So, you know, the willingness to offload certain things, I actually do think is incredibly important. But that being said, you know, I think for me, I felt I would, you know, clean the shop, I'd clean the bathrooms, I'd wash hair. You know, I wanted to not only know how to do everything really well, but also be a role model for the kind of environment I wanted to create, which was like, we're all in this together and we all work together as a team, you know, So I had to, you know, kind of walk the walk as well as I always felt like that was important for my team to see that, like, I'm not. I'm not above doing anything, and I have a unique perspective and understand everything that you're asking that I'm asking you to do. I. I've done, you know, so I think that's important as an owner so that you really have an understanding of all the things that are happening, you know, within your company. But, yeah, there's a real need also to, you know, make sure that you're, you know, you. Again, I hear it all the time with founders who are just so overwhelmed with so much because we hold our company and our everything so precious, and we don't want anyone else, you know, to potentially mess something up or do it differently than we would. And, and, And I felt like that for years, you know, and eventually, like, had some coaching and like, I've got to let other people make mistakes, and that's the way that they learn and that's the way we grow, and that's the way that they feel really empowered and feel like, you know, they have some real skin in the game. So, you know, it's such a both and of like, you gotta be okay with some people making mistakes and maybe not doing it the way you would. And, and even as like, you know, a CEO, especially the second time around for me is like, you know, I really think of everything as, like, I'm here to serve my team, not. Not vice versa. You know, it's like I, I give my team a lot of autonomy and, you know, a lot of, like, room to do what they need to do and try to be more of, you know, additive and, and serving them instead of them serving me, which I think is a. Is a shift, you know, from like, you know, 10, 20 years ago how. How CEOs were and, and also trying to be really mindful of hierarchy. You know, I always want people on my team who, you know, are kind of down to do whatever needs to be done. And that. That just happens in an organization, you know, from people being understaffed or not having enough people. Right. People. So it's such a mixed bag and. Sorry, that was such a long answer.
- [15:06]
A
No, it's a wonderful answer and I thank you for going into it because it is something like, you know, because I just wonder because there's these brands that I, I mean, drive our. Became such a phenomenon, right? And you never get to look behind the scenes. You never get to understand, like, what is it that happens inside such a large company and such a large brand where things are moving so cohesively because that's what it looks like to consumers. On the surface, everything's so well put together, but like you said, you know, there's a lot going on in the background. One of my biggest questions for you, honestly, is just this idea that now we're going into this Cancel Culture. Right. As a society with beauty brands, I've seen this a lot, and I don't know what your thoughts are on Cancel Culture, but I, I worry a lot, you know, for new founders and new entrepreneurs, because I feel like people have great, you know, like, they come into beauty with this, like, really enthusiastic mindset and they want the best, they want to create the best, but then all of a sudden you do one thing and then it's just going to turn on you, you know, and they're going to be like, I can't with this brand. Like, how do you feel about that? Like, I mean, do you think it's a lot different than it was when starting out or. I mean, what are your general views on that?
- [16:08]
B
Yeah, I do think it's different because when, you know, drywire started in 2010 and that's when Instagram started, you know, so we came into the world when it wasn't quite as, like, socially driven as it is now, you know, and, and I've had things happen over the years, but yeah, I'm not a fan of, of Cancel Culture. You know, it's like when I think about founders and people who are. That are trying to, you know, start a business and presumably to make something better, to put something out there that's really hard and vul then, you know, to be canceled. Why? Maybe I'm just too old, you know, that I'm like, it's just so negative and toxic, you know, to be like, I'm gonna cancel a person. Like, you know, and, and listen, like, I probably am much more guarded than I would be, even though I. I talk about a lot. And I can be very vulnerable. And, you know, my book the Messy Truth is a very vulnerable depiction of my time growing drybar and then all the shit that happened in my personal life. And I'm very open about that stuff, but I'm very closed mouth when it comes to, like, politics, religion, anything like that. Because that to me is like, when people get very upset. Of course. Like, I wish the world would be a better place if everybody could have their opinion and not have to go to, like, such a crazy height where people are really take it so personally and get so mad. And it's like, so. So for me, I just, I kind of stay away from it because it's just so personal and so tender to people. But I wish it didn't have to be that way. You know, I think that I really have a lot of respect and give a lot of, you know, kudos to people who are putting themselves out there, putting their brand out, really giving it a shot. It's very hard, you know, to put yourself out there. And, you know, and I think we should be praising that, not, you know, not the other direction.
- [17:50]
A
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And thank you for answering that, because I think it's important to hear, you know, from. From people who've done what you've done to hear that, because I think I've. I've seen this a lot and I'm not. I'm not in it and I've not gone through it, but I know I've watched people go through this whole cancel phase of their brand, and it always breaks my heart because you pour so much of yourself into, you know, and it's not just a project for people. It's their life, it's their savings, it's their, you know, everything. And then for the Internet to just then turn on, I mean, it's just
- [18:22]
B
so disheartened, you know, and I think we just live in a day and age where you just also. You have to be very aware of what you're doing. And, you know, and I mean, listen, I think self awareness, just as a practice, as a human is really important. And, you know, and I am aware of the things that I say and I do and same for my brand and my company and really do try to make sure that not offending anybody. I personally just don't love conflict and don't want, you know, and every now and again, if I get something, you know, some comment online or something negative, I just, I don't engage in it because I'm like, I'm not gonna have a fight with the person I don't even know, you know, and you keep people around you that, you know, keep you honest and things that are important to people. It's like, you know, I try not to be completely dictated by it, but I also don't bury my hand. My head in the sand over it too. So it's an interesting kind of delicate balance of. Of kind of walking that line, I guess.
- [19:15]
A
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And I was gonna actually ask you this about, like, the advisors that you bring on at a certain point in the growth of a business. Like, what is that vetting process really, like, where you're like, I need to be able to trust this person as, like, my right hand. What was that like for you? I mean, when you were at that stage where you're like, I need to bring in more people. But having that trust that you built in these people to guide you when you needed that guidance, you know.
- [19:38]
B
Well, I mean it takes time and we've certainly hired people, you know, early on in dry bar that weren't the right fit and you kind of, you know, sometimes unfortunately you have to go and not even unfortunately. It's like it's such a learning, you know, to bring on people who you think are going to be right and then they ultimately aren't. For me, I really rely on my gut and the way I feel about somebody and I mean, you can call it a little woo woo, but it's like somebody's energy is very important to me and I feel like I can usually tell within minutes of meeting somebody if it's going to work or not based on how they show up, how they talk. And it's like an intangible thing that I couldn't even explain to you how, how or why that works, you know, and I've gotten it wrong. You know, I mean there's been people that we brought on that were like, I thought this was going to work, but this isn't going to work, you know. And so I think it's first of all being very discerning and, and really trusting your gut. Like, I've never been a big resume person. Like, of course I want to know someone's experience and what they've done, but it's more about like the in person conversation, you know, really understand standing where they're coming from, how passionate they are about what we doing. And not everybody's like that and sometimes it's just a chemistry thing and it doesn't fit and that's okay. And you have to kind of learn. And I think again, it's really trusting your gut about people and putting your ego aside, you know, especially as a founder, it's like, and that's a tough one for me, you know, it's like, you know, my name on my brand. And so it's important for me to like, you know, it's a, it's a personal thing too. So I want to make sure anybody who's advising me or on my team believes in my vision and, and then, you know, and then I can let them run with it, you know, but it's like it's not always easy and things change and, and you know, a lot of the people that have worked for me over the years, you know, they were ready to try something different and I always had my blessing. And even in like, you know, like I mentioned, we had up to 10,000 employees at one point at Drybar. And, you know, most of those were stylists. And my team used to be like, you know, we're. We're training an industry here, which we were. And a lot of times we would train somebody. They'd worked for us for less than a year, and then they'd move on to something else. And my team would be so frustrated because it's like we spent so much time on this person training them and never felt that way. I was like. I was like, I feel like it's karmically very good. You know, they've worked for us. They've given a lot of, like, time and energy to us, and now they're going and taking the skill that we gave to them and bringing it out into the world. And I felt like it was all great, you know, And I think that that's part of, like, not holding anything too precious and like, letting people, like, continue to evolve and being a small part of their journey always felt really good to me.
- [22:01]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. No, I can. I can definitely. I mean, you guys created. Created a huge movement, you know, and I think everybody, like, felt the vibes, you know, and I think that's. It's like, it's always the vibes at the end of the day with any brand, Anything.
- [22:13]
B
Right?
- [22:13]
A
I mean, that's why we buy what we buy. And I mean, with messy, this is. This is why I love the way you've gone about your journey as just somebody watching from the outside, because you went from this, like, super, like, blowout. Beautiful hair that's, like, styled and perfect. Now you're doing messy, where it's all about just own it, you know? How is that from, like, that entrepreneur perspective of, like, you're doing a full 180 now, we know with the brand and the, you know, the whole messaging.
- [22:38]
B
Well, yeah, I mean, and it wasn't, like, premeditated. It wasn't, like, five years ago. I thought, you know, I'm going to create a brand that's, like, kind of the opposite of a blowout. It really happened very organically and naturally for me. And largely, you know, when Covid hit and we. We all stopped going anywhere. Like, I had. And I just sold dry bar, and I kind of took a break from the blowouts just because I wasn't going anywhere and was, like, really trying to kind of embrace my true texture, my waves and which. And. And during that time when I was kind of laying off the heat a little bit, my hair grew and got healthier, and it I was like, huh? You know, it's like, maybe there's something here, you know, And I think there's definitely been a movement in like air dry hair. And really it's the preservation of our hair. You know, it's like as great as driver I was. And I still love a blowout. You know, it did kind of wreak havoc on my hair for many years because I was doing so much blowouts and so much heat on my hair that I just, as, you know, somebody who's very obsessed with hair in all capacities, I. I was like, there's gotta be a way to like, learn to love, love my hair as it is versus like trying to manipulate it into some other version. And it was really during COVID that I started like experimenting with it, which is largely, you know, how I created our first product, which is our rough dry cream. And it's the soft hold that I couldn't find. And you know, for me, I like the way I did my hair today. It's like I rough dry it, put the product in, and then twist pieces and let it dry. If I didn't do that, my hair would be very frizzy and crazy. So there is still, like, for me, I can't just air dry my hair. It doesn't look good. It dries very frizzy. I have, I had to figure out something to do, which obviously I didn't invent twisting hair, but the very specific way I do it really, you know, works for me. And like, you know, my hair, although messy and tousled right now, it's not frizzy. And that's something I was trying to figure out. And once I started to embrace that and started to really love it, you know. Cause if my hair dries naturally and also dries very, very curly, so I rough dry it to kind of stretch it out and. And again, as a hairstylist, like, I know a lot of tricks. And so I, in creating messy, I wanted to create techniques. I'll also put my hair in braids, shades when it's damp, and then let it, you know, those. So there's tons of different ways, you know, you can go about it, but you do need really good product to do it. And you know, it's just, it's just like anything else. Like, we evolve or, you know, for me, I equate it a lot to like, fashion. It's like, you know, if you watch fashion, trends, like everything kind of comes full circle again and again and again, right? It's like trends come back from like you know, skinny jeans, you know, always recycled. It's always recycled. Like flare jeans, bell bottoms, low waist, high rise. Like, it all, you know, kind of comes back over and over again. And, you know, I think that's the same thing with hair. There's so much. There's so much you can do with it if you're willing to change it up a little bit, you know, and then that more from, like, the, I don't know, spiritual, emotional side of it, you know, it's like, yes, I love that side. Yeah. You know, it's like, I can't tell you how many women I talk to who are like, you know, my daughter is watching me basically boycott my waves and just try to get this, like, perfect hair. And she's got waves, and so now she wants to get rid of them because, you know, we're watching our moms do this. And so trying to get girls, women, whatever, comfortable with the hair that they have. I mean, that's one of our big taglines at messy is like, love, you know, love. Embrace the hair that you have. But you need products and techniques to support that as well. But, you know, I think that there's, like, kind of owning the hair that we have and, like, embracing it and. And also, like, for the record that, you know, I do still get blowouts sometimes. Like, sometimes I feel like having my hair straight and blown out, you know, but most of the time, I prefer it like this. It's a less maintenance. It's a lot easier to do. It's a lot healthier, you know, but sometimes the mood strikes where I want a smooth blowout, you know, and so. And so for me, with messy, it's like just giving women another avenue, another option, you know, to embrace their hair versus kind of manipulating it. And. And, you know, I get more compliments on my hair now than I ever have, you know, so it's just really.
- [26:30]
A
It looks great. I mean, you know, honestly, like, I love dry bar. Like, don't get me wrong, but I wish messy came out first because I honestly, I was in medical school, and I was always struggling. Like, I don't have wavy hair. Like, you. Like, it has a little bit of wave in it, but I'm literally that person as well, where it's like, I got out of the shower, I'm like, just give me something to put it, you know, like, yeah, give me something and let me go about my day. And I remember, like, even for me as a consumer that was just trying to, like, do my best, it was like I was Looking around and I'm like, guys, when are we gonna have products that I can just be like, I'm grabbing this one thing. It's gonna work for me. I don't have to think about it, you know, and then also not feel so, like. Like, I don't know, behind the curve, right. With like, how I keep my ha. How I upkeep it. I feel like women get judged so much on our hair, which has always bothered me, I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, like, kind of annoying, but, like, having that always in the back of your mind, but then knowing you're too busy. Like, I'm too busy. Like, I don't have time for curling and I don't have time to straighten it. And then I don't know. It is that spiritual.
- [27:28]
B
And especially with, like, straight hair, like you said your hair is mostly straight with a little bend. It's like, I can't tell you how many of my friends who have that kind of hair who are like, how do you get it? What do you do? It's like, I always tell people, like, get it like 50 to 60% dry, and then just put it in two braids with product, you know, rough dry, cream in it, and then let it dry and take it out. And you'll have these beautiful effortless waves that you didn't really have to do much for, you know, and that takes you two minutes. You know, for me, I twist my hair when it's damp, 50 to 60% dry, and then I don't touch it until it's dry. And then you shake it out because it's essentially like doing the work more or less that like a curling iron would do, because you are still manipulating the hair. You're just twisting it into place while it's wet. And then the way hair dries is the way it stays, you know, so if it dries in the twist, once it's dry, you still have that bend, you know, And. But if you have very, very straight hair, I always tell girls to put it in a braid because the twist won't stay in because your hair won't hold them, you know, and we're talking about like a less than five minute routine in your hair, which I think is to your point of not wanting to spend a lot of time on your hair is like a really nice alternative to the blow drying and the curling and all the other things that take a lot of time.
- [28:32]
A
Yeah, no, and also, like, I feel like it just gives you so much flexibility in the way that you're able to, like, maintain your everyday look. I feel there was a huge narrative for a long time in the beauty industry where it was like, you're either putting in time or you're just not doing anything, you know, with beauty.
- [28:46]
B
Exactly. And we want to be, like, in the middle.
- [28:49]
A
Right. And that's why I love that you're creating this brand and that you've created it, because it's. We need more of that. I think there needs to be, like, a megaphone with founders going around and saying, we don't have to have extremes. Let's do it in the middle and let's find real solutions, you know? And I know it's like people always say, like, oh, beauty is like vanity. And it's like all these. And it's like, it's not. It's really about how you are able to show up in your day, day to day, you know, and, like, it's.
- [29:13]
B
So the way we feel on the outside largely affects how we feel on the inside and vice versa, you know, which is also why all of our products have mantras like, I am enough, and I am unbreakable, and I can begin again. Like, feeling that way on the inside and matching it on the outside is. Is really important, you know, and for me, it's like, I've really embraced this type of hair, and it's so much easier, and I feel, like, very light and free. And it's just. I look at, like, Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen, like, they've always had this, like, very effortless wav. Very undone here. And I've always loved it. And I remember being like, how do they get their hair to look like that? You know? And I know they're a hairstylist, and they don't like getting blowouts. You know, they like their natural texture. And, you know, and to your point, I think that that's, like, a nice middle ground. And even, like, my hair when it's. When it feels too curly, like, I'll wrap it up and put it in a bun because it'll straighten it out. There's just so much you can do. And I feel like I can do a lot more with my hair when it's wavy, that I just love it. To me, it feels like a version of myself that I'm most comfortable. Comfortable in.
- [30:12]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. I like that you said that, like, you can do so much, because I remember when texturizer sprays first like, became big, you know, and I was, like, so hyped. I was like, yes, you know, like, you can, because I had that straight hair. And I was like, oh, I can just spray this in. It's gonna look PC and, like, you know what I mean? That messy look. And I was like, this is great. You know, and it was, like, a revolutionary moment for me, personally, as a consumer, I'm not gonna lie. But, I mean, that's kind of what. That's what Messi reminds me of, is it's like, yeah, discovering the fun of hair. And I. That's like, for me, beauty. That's what it's supposed to be. And I would love 100. I kind of want you to speak a little bit more on this, if you don't mind, about this idea of, like, how right now. And I feel like this. But then again, my opinion. I mean, take it with Graham Solve everyone listening, is that I feel like founders put so much effort into figuring out, like, well, what's our messaging and what's our demographic and, like, where. What are we trying to say to the world? Where do you think that balances from, like, just doing stuff that's fun and putting the fun back into, like, building a brand, creating that message, and then also just, like, you know what I mean? Like, narrating that entire thing to the point of, like, you're telling people what to think.
- [31:15]
B
Well, I mean, it's interesting. It's like, I. For my brand, you know, with. With Messy, it's like, I think I have those women who've loved and grew up with Dry Bar, you know, I mean, driver is 16 years old now, so, like, I meet girls all the time who are, like, you know, in their late 20s who were going to Dry Bar, and they were, like, in high school, you know, and, you know. You know, to your point, I. I don't want to pigeonhole anybody into any category. And, you know, I really do think messy works for all hair types and textures, so we have that going. But, you know, I mean, and the messaging is interesting. You know, it's like, even though the brand is called messy, it's like, you know, and people. You know, it's like, I'm trying to get people to embrace, you know, not only the messier side of their hair, the messier side of life, and to just, you know, keep things real. So I think messaging is important and having, like, a very clear brand DNA of what you're trying to do. And also similar to Dry Bar with messy, like, I'm also not trying to be everything to everybody. You know, it's like, you might embrace this and. And love it, you know, or you might Not. But I also like, have to kind of stay true to like the ethos of the brand, which is like embracing the hair that you have. Which, by the way, our rough dry cream that's great for executing curls like mine is, is also like, it has heat protectant in it. It's a great cream if you're going to blow dry your hair too. So I'm aware of that. And I don't also want to like, alienate anybody, but the messaging is very clear, you know, that like, we're into messy, sexy, like, you know, kind of effortless hair. And that's, that's, that's really kind of what we stand for. And I do think it's important to have point of view, especially in a category like hair or makeup or skin. It's like there's just a sea of products out there. So I think in order, you know, back to like what we were talking about in the beginning, like dry bars being so unique. It's like we didn't invent blowouts, but we created, you know, a whole brand and experience around blowouts. You know, it's like, to stand out in, especially in the beauty world, you know, it's like you have to do something that's different and unique from both a product standpoint and from a messaging standpoint and staying really true to that. Not getting to like, again, I'm not trying to do everything. And with same with Dry Bar, I was like, I just wanted to focus on blowouts. We could have sold women a lot of other things, but to me it was like kind of watering down the brand, you know, which I didn't want to do. And, and I think I come from messy with the same point of view. It's like we're really trying to get women to love and embrace this kind of like messier, less filtered, less highlight reel version of themselves and learn to really love it. So that's, I feel like that's really important versus like a lot of haircuts, product lines that are out there that are really trying to change and manipulate your hair into something it's not. I mean, there's a place for everything though, you know, it's like, it's, you know, it's just kind of where you're at.
- [33:52]
A
No, I, I really, I feel you on that because, and part of the reason I asked you this is exactly what you said at the end where it's like, I feel like there's a lot of like science based brands that are like focusing so hard on the science sometimes. I feel like it gets preachy. For example, hair loss, Like, I'll just use that as an example. Like, hair loss is a serious issue for a lot of people, and it's hard and it's, you know, it's like a personal journey, as you know. But then sometimes I'll see a brand like super hardcore going into science, which is great, but it almost comes off almost as like, you're telling me what I need to do to fix a problem which is not universally the same for everybody. And I think that's why I kind of wanted to ask you that question, was because I get branding and I get, like, giving narratives to people. But then where I get lost as a consumer is where somebody goes, well, this is the fix, and this is your ultimate end all be all, and you should buy the brand because of this, you know, And I get lost in all of that because I'm like, I love science. I'm the biggest geek when it comes to understanding hair health and beauty and all that. But when you are just like, like, you know, like, dying on this hill of, like, this is it or nothing else.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah.
- [34:51]
A
You know.
- [34:52]
B
Well, I mean, it's like, you think about, you know, any products that you use from, like, makeup and skin care and hair care products. It's like, no, you should not just buy messy. Like, there's so many great product lines out there. And I agree with you. It's like, whatever, you know, your specific needs are. And there's a lot of different brands. Like, I think about all the different skincare and all the different makeup I use from, like, a million different brands. You know, it's like, you know, you have to figure out what works for you and make and kind of piece it together. And it's interesting, you know, I mean, some things, like, I buy into that brands are talking about, and some things, like, I'm like, I'm similar with the science. Like, I, for me, like, I'll never be a science brand. I. While I. I develop all the products and I get my team's feedback and all of that too, but it's just not my brain, you know, it's like, I don't think about the science. Like, I think about how things work, how things smell, how they feel in my hair, and then I depend on the labs that I work with to help make sure that the product's good. And there. And there's a lot to choose from as a consumer. I think, think it's a very personal choice, you know.
- [35:50]
A
Absolutely. No, it really is a very Personal choice, I think. I mean, I think that's why I, like, I appreciate where you're going with messy and what you're creating with it. Because it's easy. It's easy to understand. It's easy to pick up and use. You don't have to. Like, my brain hurt at the end of the day trying to figure out, like, where in my hair care routine does this fit in that kind of thing. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that either, you know, but, yeah, it's easy. And that's why I wanted to ask you so much about the entrepreneurial side, because I think that's where I get lost when I think about what founders have to. The homework they have to do to figure out what's going to resonate with people, you know, at the end of the day. And, like, where is that line between easy to understand and I'm trying to force you to understand this so that you buy my product.
- [36:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, it's tough. You know, it's like there's. I mean, gosh, I don't even know if I know the answer to that question. You know, it's like, for me, it's. I think, obviously, having been in and around hair as long as I have, and as I started to, like, dream up this idea for messy, you know, I would talk to people and just kind of get, like, initial, like, what do people think? What are people saying? And I pay very close attention to what's going on in hair trends. And, you know, obviously, you know, it's no secret that air drying and all of that has become more popular. And people. Women are going away because, like, you mentioned hair loss. And maybe it's the age that I'm at. I'm 51. And, you know, women of, you know, my age are, you know, going through menopause and perimenopause, and they're starting to, like, lose their hair. And there's, you know, and even, like, you know, I've heard that, like, you know, GLP1s are causing hair. I mean.
- [37:20]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [37:20]
B
You know, so I think that there is a desire that has come out in the last few years, at least, that I've noticed, where women are trying to take it easier on their hair. You know, not dissimilar to, like, skincare products and, like, everything we do for our skin from, you know, regular facials and retinol. Like, I only discovered dermaplaning about five years ago and was like, this is the best thing I've Ever done. And not everybody agrees with that, you know, so it's like. But. But to answer your question, you know, it's like, I've been very embedded in the hair world for a very long time, and I like to think that I. You know, it's really interesting when I hear my team talk about messy or. And they're like, you know, they'll say things like, you know, Ali has, you know, very unique way of, like, knowing what the consumer wants. And in my mind, I'm like, not really. Like, I don't. I don't think that I do. But there, you know, it's like, we all have our superpowers, you know, And I think that I do really have, like, a deep understanding of hair and trends and what's happening. And, of course, it's not always for everyone, but that is, like, you know, listen, I think that we all have, like, our things that we're really good at, and for me, that's largely been hair, and that's. I've really trusted my gut. And then, you know, when I called Sephora and said, I have this idea for a product line, they. They loved it. It's like, there's some validation. And when I started talking to people about this product line, everyone got very excited about it. So it's like, okay, maybe I'm on the right track here. You know, I'm not, like, so bullish that I, like, I'm like, I don't care what anybody thinks. Like, I do take other people's feedback, and I do listen to what people say, and I do pay attention to how people respond to the brand. And we're always, like, tinkering and changing things to make more sense. You know, it's like, even right now, we're in the process of changing a couple things, like, on our packaging, it's like, we're always paying attention but not allowing it to completely dictate either. You know, And I think that that' fine line that you walk as a CEO or founder when you're like, I don't want to go away too much, but I also want to be cognizant and aware of what is being talked about, what people are liking, what people are not liking. You know, I'm not a big, like, I hate focus groups. Like, I'm not a big, like, decision by, you know, committee kind of person, but I do take opinions of people I trust very seriously.
- [39:18]
A
No, it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. And I. I guess, like, my. My final question, really, for you is if There was one thing that you wish somebody had told you about being a founder, being an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur, learning to scale a brand. What do you think that one thing would be, especially for someone who's younger? Because I worry about Gen Z. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I genuinely, I worry, you know,
- [39:38]
B
I don't, I don't know. For me, like, I always came at this with a very, like, passion for what you're doing. I think to your point, Gen Z is like, there is a lot of, like, everybody just wants to own their own business. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I do think that, like, even the advice I give my children who are 19 and 21, and they are very much in their throes of like, trying to figure out what they want to do do with their lives, it's, it's a really tricky time, as I'm sure you remember, you know, and I always tell them, like, just do what you like and keep finding out what you don't like. I don't know that if I had to do it again, I would do it all that differently. You know, it's like, I had so many jobs in my twenties. I tried so many careers, I tried other businesses. I did a lot of things and I think all of those things very uniquely prepared me to do what I ultimately did with Dry Bar. Had I not had a lot of the experiences that I had, there would have definitely been holes and there were plenty of holes and things that I had to learn. I didn't go to college, I didn't have a business degree. I didn't know a lot about a lot back then, which I, which I learned on the job, but I did learn a lot that prepared me for what I ultimately did. So to answer your question is like, go try a bunch of shit and go make a bunch of mistakes and fail and do all the things to learn what you like, what you don't like, what you can tolerate, what you can't tolerate, you know, versus like, even in, you know, the case of, you know, my son, I'm like, who's 21? I'm like, go try and my God, my 19 year old too. We were just. The amount of conversations I'm in right now with my kids around, like, what they want to do, you know, I'm like, just go try it. Like, go try a bunch of stuff and go fail and go mess up and see what you like and don't like. And versus like, I gotta start a business today. And I Gotta be rich in five years. You know, it's like, that's the other thing I feel pretty strongly about. It's like I've never come at any business or any idea from like, I'm doing this to make. Make a bunch of money. I always come at it from, like, I'm doing this to feel fulfilled and to enjoy my life, you know, And I think that's the more important starting point, which, to your point, Gen Z might be missing a little bit, you know that they're. There's so much online and see these like, founders or creators who are making, like, so much money so fast and then everyone's trying to do that, you know, it's like. And not to say, like, of course I like money and buying things and living a nice life, but ultimately it's like how I feel what I'm doing every day, the energy that I have around what I'm doing is much, much more important. So that's where I would tell people, you know, to start.
- [41:55]
A
I love that. I think a lot more like younger or not only younger, but everybody needs to think on that a little bit more. I heard that from when we were in, you know, going into medicine every. Everyone used to tell me that, like, don't go into medicine because you. It makes money because it does.
- [42:07]
B
Yeah.
- [42:08]
A
Like, you're gonna be screwed. And I feel like that really resonates, you know.
- [42:11]
B
Yeah.
- [42:12]
A
On that level for me. So. But thank you so much, Ellie.
- [42:14]
B
This was amazing.
- [42:15]
A
You're amazing. I mean, honestly, like, what you've created, what you continue to create is so inspiring. Like, genuinely so. Yeah. No, really, like rooting you on. And thank you for everyone listening. If you haven't tried messy, you need to go try Messi. Everything is linked in the show notes. Please leave your comments and thank you so much.
- [42:31]
B
Thank you.