← Skin Anarchy
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- [00:00]
A
Hi guys.
- [00:00]
B
Welcome back to another episode of Skin Anarchy. Today is a mindset episode and I'm so excited about this episode because joining us today is a true expert in the field of so many different sub disciplines that intersect with the idea of mindset and mental well being and understanding what that really means for us on a day to day basis. So without further ado, please welcome Dr. Tama Bryant, who is a psychologist, she's an author, she's a professor, an artist and a minister. And she's really leading the way in creating healthy relationships, Healing trauma was overcoming stress and oppression. Her books include Matters of the Heart, Homecoming, Reclaim Yourself, the Homecoming Workbook, and the Anti Racism Handbook, which are practical tools to shift your mindset and uproot racism in your life and community. So welcome Dr. Bryant. I'm so honored to host you.
- [00:50]
A
Oh, you are? I am very, very grateful and excited to be with you on today.
- [00:57]
B
No, I'm so excited and I really want to learn from you in this episode because there are so many things that you've touched upon in your that not only do we not talk about, I think, as society, but like to get that expert opinion, you know, and to understand and navigate this, you know, because we're so busy these days that nobody pauses to think about some of this stuff. But I really want to start off, Bryant, by learning more about you and your journey because it's been extraordinary and I'd love to learn what got you into psychology and what made you want to go in this direction with your life's work.
- [01:26]
A
Absolutely. So growing up primarily in Baltimore, Maryland, my dad was a pastor. And so within our community, people were more likely to go speak with a minister than with a therapist. And so in addition to kind of like Sunday morning services, he would do pastoral counseling. And so people were often coming to meet with him about life challenges and they would also call our home. I say in the book Homecoming that my first time working a crisis hotline was in my childhood home because people would just call with their distress and it kind of didn't matter who answered the phone. But I was also from very young thought of as a very sensitive child. And when people would say that, they usually didn't mean it in a positive if they call you sensitive. But as a therapist, it ends up being my superpower to really be tuned in and compassionate and empathetic. And so that's what started me on the journey. It's once I learned there was a field of counseling, of therapy in and of itself, even outside of faith based Spaces. I felt like that's what I'm meant to do.
- [02:32]
B
I love that. I love that it came from such a natural place. I'm already like, I have a million questions, you know, just from what you've explained, because people really kind of take that part of themselves, like if they are sensitive and they are what I think I've heard a lot of people say, empaths, they take that as a weakness and they don't hone in on it. So I want you to dive into, like a lot of these topics later. But just to start us off, you've spent your career studying trauma, relationships, healing. What's the most common pattern people think is about love, but it actually ends up being something completely different?
- [03:06]
A
Yes. So often people talk about relationships as being work, which they are, but sometimes the work is misunderstood. Meaning if we're in a relationship, whether friendship or romantic, the work should be us being on the same team, working toward a common goal. But when we're in unhealthy relationships, often we have become enemies or competitors, or we are performing for each other and not being authentic. Maybe one person gets to be real and express their needs, their wants, their dreams, and the other person is just kind of the holder of that. And so sometimes that gets presented as being low maintenance or easygoing. But sometimes people who are easygoing or low maintenance have actually learned not to need very much, to not risk disappointment or being afraid they won't be chosen if they share what they really want or think or need. And so should there be effort by everybody in relationship? Yes, relationships take effort. But what we want to be careful about is erasure. Am I being erased in order to hold on to this relationship? What is it costing me as it relates to me? Because our hope is that healthy relationships enhance us and help us to evolve and to grow and to be our best selves, not to be diminished.
- [04:38]
B
Yeah, no, that's really powerful what you said. It really makes me wonder because going to your point about how one person becomes that kind of submissive role in the relationship, I just wonder, I mean, what. What is your opinion on the idea of, like, what that reflects about ourselves and like, what we think of ourselves when we show up like that in a relationship?
- [04:58]
A
Yes. I think when we show up to relationships in this, like, silenced or muted way, it is often that we have experienced abandonment or rejection. So then I'm so happy to be given any attention or to be chosen, and that can feel fragile. Right. I don't want to mess that up. I don't want to lose this. And perhaps, you know, before this person, there had been, like, a time of. Of loneliness. So then if we start to convince ourselves the parts or the fraction that I'm getting is better than nothing. So then we fight to hold on to the breadcrumbs because we don't believe we could really have, like, a love feast. We might think it exists, but it exists for other people. Right. That I see other people getting loved on in that way. But, like, that has not been my experience. And so what we often do is compare. And if I've only had unhealthy treatment, then anything I'm getting, I might say it's better than what I had. But I like to say with clients, especially those who are coming out of abusive relationships, just because it's better doesn't mean it's good.
- [06:08]
B
Yeah, that's. It's so interesting that you said that, and especially just to, like, have you elaborate more on that. The idea of, like, an abusive relationship, I feel like. And I don't know if you think this way or not, but the way I see it, in just my own circle of people, it's like we've almost stopped recognizing when abuse. Abuse is abuse. And so it's like people don't come out because they don't genuinely believe that they're being, you know, abused in a relationship. Like what you were saying, where if you're the one that's always listening and you're always the sounding board, I mean, wouldn't that be a form of abuse at the end of the day? Yeah.
- [06:39]
A
Yeah. I think what we often do, and your point is so important, is we often think of the more severe instances. So whatever is happening to us, we can downplay it. Right. So I'll have people who will say things like, well, they never punch me. They just one time, like, open hand slapped me, but that wasn't a punch. Or they might have held me down, but they never did whatever this other thing is. And then definitely for the emotional piece, I think sometimes people are more open to the words of manipulation or more open to the idea of being neglected. Right. They may say, well, it's not abusive. I definitely have been disrespected, neglected, taken for granted, perpetually cheated on. So it's like finding our language to understand what is happening and even what our expectations are. Because then some of the mistreatment for people has become normal, normative, where they're like, oh, that's just what happens in relationships.
- [07:43]
B
Yeah, no, that's really, really interesting to understand because I mean, it just makes you wonder like how we condition ourselves over time. I've also heard people say things like, well, it becomes a pattern of behavior that you've adopted. But it's like, well then how do you break that pattern? How do you regain that control for yourself? And then also what's the tipping point, right, of like regaining control of yourself but then not exerting your control on somebody else? I'd love to hear you talk about control. You know, like this idea of what is control? What does it even mean to have control in a healthy.
- [08:15]
A
Yeah, so one in terms of kind of what's the wake up point for people or for everybody? The line is drawn at a different place. So what is the moment where I said, okay, like this is too much or this has gone too far? Some people, it's when someone they cares about says something to them about what they've observed or notice. Because then that like, they respect this person's opinion. They feel like this person knows me, like this is my best friend or my sister. And they're like, you know, what's going on with you? Right. And so sometimes to hear it from someone else's perspective, some people who are parents will say when they see it affecting their children, that that became like the, oh, wait a minute, something has to shift. And in terms of like breaking the cycle or the pattern, I like to tell people, when we heal and grow, some people won't like it. Right. That there are people who are going to celebrate you when you grow. And they're like, oh, you found your voice. I love that you're speaking up for your, you know, that confidence looks good on you. And then there are going to be people who are going to say like, you change. You know, you used to, you didn't have a problem with it before and now do you have a problem with it now or suddenly you have a bunch of opinions and they're bothered by it. Because some people, it wasn't that they loved you, they loved your passivity. They loved that they got to always have their way. And so they may not celebrate the new you. What they may have been drawn to is the ability to control you.
- [09:47]
B
Yeah.
- [09:48]
A
So now when you're not so easy to control or manipulate, then they may present that as you're not a good partner. Then like when we grow and change and heal, there's a ripple effect. It does affect our relationships. And so then it's about, can the relationship adjust to the new me or has the relationship expired?
- [10:10]
B
Yeah, that's. I Mean, that's a tough call too, right? Like, making that call that takes like so much reflection on what is actually going on. And you know, it really, really makes me wonder also, Dr. Bryant, because I see a lot of like just watching social media, watching myself, watching my friends. I feel like we're living in a society right now where we're trying to find ourselves and who we are and grounding ourselves in something. Right. Whether that's our set of beliefs, whether it's a stance. And I just wonder, like, where is that balance between letting the people in our lives dictate who we become versus becoming who we really want to be? What are your thoughts on that?
- [10:49]
A
Yes. So, you know, we think about community and relationships. We can heal and grow together. And sometimes as I named, people who care about me might share an insight about me that I had overlooked. And they're like, no, you know, you're really good at whatever this thing is. Or I notice when you're nervous, you do whatever this is. And so that can help my self awareness. That is different from when I have to abandon myself to be what other people want me to be. So then what they're doing is not creating the safety and support for me to bloom into my true self. It is they're trying to make me into their image of what either a good daughter or a good partner or a good sister would do in this moment. So, you know that what we can pause to ask ourselves is, is there any room for my thoughts and feelings in this relationship or is it really just someone else wanting to control me and dictate my life with no care for what I actually feel and want?
- [11:59]
B
Yeah, I love that. And I wonder because we're talking so much about relationships and it's such an important topic, but I always like, wonder, how do we superimpose this on the daily relationships we have with like the people online that are watching our content, you know, like our work environment. Because it's all blends together. Right. It's like we're in relationships with everybody in our life. And my question really is, how do we get out of this mindset of like, not just people pleasing, but almost like that instant gratification, dope, mean head of someone approving of us. You know what I mean?
- [12:31]
A
Yeah. I think in part it's releasing the need for everyone to approve of you all the time. Yeah. And to recognize no matter what you choose, there are going to be people who like it and don't like it. So then let's start with what do you Feel about it, like, did you pick the outfit because you loved it? And you know, like, some people may be like, ugh, she's wearing yellow. Why do you have on yellow? And I'm like, I love it. Right? And so then I, I can feel free in that. But if when I put it on, the thought was, I'm gonna wear this cause everyone's gonna say I look great. Well, now the goal is off, right? So for us to learn how to take pause to check in with ourselves. So it's like, you know, on my, in my social media, I post dancing a lot, right. I love dancing. And then some people may say, like, why are you posting dancing all the time? Well, like this page is probably not for you. And that's okay, right? Go to somebody else if somebody else is posting what you want. And most importantly, why don't you post what you want instead of expecting me to give you what you want?
- [13:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love that. And you know, also like, that feeds into the whole, well, people are criticizing me, you know, I have to now shift things up because I don't want over critique on social media. And it's like, do whatever the heck you want, you know? Yeah.
- [13:54]
A
And what I also say to people is just as your authentic self, your real self will repel some people, it will also draw some people. Right. You know, I've talked to people who are afraid of, let's say, shifting their content because they used to post a lot about this, but you know, people grow and change and live and now they're more interested in something else, but worried about the quote unquote followers. And it's like, even if some of them leave, it's okay. People who are drawn to what you're interested in now will find you.
- [14:28]
B
Yeah, I think that's really such an important message because especially like when I see like Gen Z, for example, you know, they're, most of them are coming into their 30s and it's like I watch a lot of content online, you know, just because I'm in media. And I always see a lot of girls, especially a lot of women, young women that are like, well, your content was this five days ago, and now it's this, you know, and it just makes you wonder. It's like, when are you going to stop, you know, and just be you? Just, it doesn't matter if you're sitting there with like a ponytail and no makeup, you know, just be yourself. Like, you know, that's the most interesting part.
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A
Right. You know, we're often trying to Become something. But what people are often hungry for is realness, right? It's like, who's being true?
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B
Who do.
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A
I feel like that's actually them. And that's what's really interesting. Even if it's very different. For me, it's like, oh, like I'm getting an actual human moment.
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B
Yeah, exactly. And I want to kind of shift a little bit because there's this thing, you know, it's interesting to me to watch this, where we kind of confuse familiarity with compatibility a lot of times, whether it's in our friendships, relationships, whatever. And I'd love for you to speak on that. Like, what is that that we're doing when that happens? And how do you catch that?
- [15:43]
A
Yes. 1. I want to also say sometimes we have a false sense of familiarity, meaning we think we know people based on social media.
- [15:53]
B
Yes.
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A
Right. And even if people post a lot, like, we actually don't really know them. Right. We know the aspect of them that they're choosing to share, which is an aspect, but it's not the whole thing. And so then as it relates to familiarity and compatibility, we often hold on to what is familiar because fear of change and discomfort with the unknown. So we're like, yeah, this person has been my friend, you know, since I was a teenager. And so I know them and they know me. But even if the friendship is not fulfilling anymore or we've grown apart, sometimes we hold on just because, like, I know them, right? And I don't want to risk either loneliness of it being hard to make new friends or, you know, not being sure that I can let my guard down because I don't really know this person yet. The same thing happens in romantic relationships where, you know, we can hold on just because we've been in it a long time. And people say, like, I don't want to start over, right? It's like, oh, start out. This was a lot. So start all over. In social psychology, the term is sunk cost. And it's. The more we've invested in something, the harder it is to walk away. And so we hold on even when it's not compatible.
- [17:12]
B
Wow. I didn't know that. I didn't. I've never heard of some. Cause that's really fascinating. Wow. I've been in like seven, eight year relationships and like now I look back, you know, right. Like decades later, I'm like, what? What was I doing?
- [17:25]
A
Why was I there? That. Why was I there? You know, we definitely are like, you know, especially when it's been years, it's like I don't want it to be a waste. So people think, like, if I walk away, then that time was wasted. Meanwhile, we keep adding more time to it.
- [17:40]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know what's crazy is this actually applies a lot to medicine, I feel like, or any science discipline. I'm sure you've seen this. A lot of professionals go through this where it's like, we'll end up in a career. And we're like, well, I'm in now.
- [17:54]
A
Yes.
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B
Two decades later, you know, I'm not
- [17:57]
A
going to change it now.
- [17:58]
B
Yeah. And I've seen this a lot lately online. There's this really famous. He's a spine surgeon. And I. My heart is going out to him right now because he is a brilliant man. He spent his entire life working, training, whatever, and he made a statement on social media, and he was like, I'm stepping away for a while. I need a break. And it's like this whole topic comes up, right. Of, like, professional fatigue and medicine, and people are just going in on him for this. And I'm like, guys, he's.
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A
He doesn't owe us anything. Right.
- [18:28]
B
I also want to get your perspective here is because I've seen that a lot, like recently in the recent years where a lot of medical professionals or like, in the science community, they're saying, it's been a lot, you know, and I want to step away, but they don't do it. They don't end up taking that leave. What are your thoughts on that?
- [18:44]
A
Well, I think we have the great example from, like, Simone Biles and like, other athletes who have said, like, I'm taking a break from mental health. And, you know, people get mad because they're like, you know, this is this prime time, or, you know, you need to show up for your fans. I appreciated Howard John Wesley, who's a pastor in Maryland, who made, like, the news because as a pastor, he took a mental health break.
- [19:10]
B
Yeah.
- [19:10]
A
And people are like, wait, what? You're supposed to be my pastor. But I think it's great for us to model for people both taking a break, but also giving ourselves permission to reinvent ourselves. One of the things I enjoy about teaching at the doctoral program at Pepperdine is we have the students who went, like, straight through school like I did, but also these students who are, like, second or third career who, like, they did a whole thing for a number of years and then said, you know what? I want to become a therapist. And it's wonderful to not have to feel stuck just because of my age or the Amount of time I've given something in mindfulness, they talk about beginner's mind and like, am I open to being a beginner again? Especially when I've been like the expert, but like to be committed to that lifelong learning or like, what's my next chapter? That. That we can. Yeah. Give ourselves that.
- [20:05]
B
Yeah. No, I mean, I love that that you said that you've seen students go through this. I mean it's really happening. Like I've seen a lot of people talk about this where it's like I just want something different in my life, you know, like just let people have that space. Like.
- [20:18]
A
Right. But it also, as you were saying, people giving that doctor a hard time, it gets to that sense of entitlement. People they have to your labor and into your free labor. Right. That they should always have access to you, you know, 24, seven. And so when we set those boundaries, some people aren't going to like it, but it's important that we set it for ourselves to protect our own peace.
- [20:46]
B
Yeah. That's really, really intelligent to say because I wanted to ask you this. Actually, this is one of the biggest questions I've had recently when it comes to this like public display of changing gears. Right. Or like you're changing something in your life or maybe just something that people have an opinion about. I have. Disproportionate amount of people of color get dragged online and we're not doing anything different than what our Caucasian friends are doing. We are doing probably less in a lot of cases. And that doctor I told you about happens to be a person of color and he is not doing anything I haven't seen a Caucasian doctor do. Right. I would love to get your take on this because you have spoken about what racism truly is and like understanding that in your day to day life, how much of this do you think needs to be addressed from that angle? And that lens of racism versus just, you know what I mean? Like the other.
- [21:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. That it's a definite component when we look at the experience of people of color in this nation that we have from the beginning been evaluated based on our labor. Right. Whether labor as enslaved folks or labor as immigrants that needing to be busy, to be deserving, to be present. Right. It's like, what are you doing for the institutions? And so we're supposed to sacrifice ourselves, our physical and mental health to build up things that are not loyal to us. Right. To be loyal to institutions that are not loyal to our wellness. And so, you know, so we get that from outside of our community. But then we have internalized that. And then we put that pressure on each other to that language around, like hustle and grind and lean in that the goal is to be booked and busy. And now this thing where your hobbies, you need to monetize, if you look to do something, you're not making money off of it, that you're doing it wrong. So it is this perpetual push for extraction and for our labor and trying to fight stereotypes. Right. So it's like, well, I want to make sure people know I'm not lazy. So now I'm doing the job of three people while being paid for one. Right. So I think the racial and ethnic piece has to be looked at as well as gender. You know, the amount of unpaid, unacknowledged women's labor is another big dynamic, both in the home and outside in the workplace. The expectation of perpetual sacrifice, the expectation of being a caretaker for others and never needing anything yourself.
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B
That's huge.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Oh, my God. Like, that hits home so hard for me.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, I resonate so much with that. I think also, like, one of my big questions is I feel like people who grow up in immigrant households or people of color, this idea is hammered into us from the beginning. I feel like of you need to work for everything that you have, and if you don't work for what you want, then the world is going to kick you down more than they're already going to do it, you know, and so I feel like from childhood we're being conditioned not only by the outside, but our home.
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A
So.
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B
Yeah. How do we get through that to a point, like having a healthy relationship with this idea of work, life, balance, or like, whatever that might be.
- [24:01]
A
Yes. Yeah. So I think we can first acknowledge and appreciate our fore parents who many, many of whom had to do it that way.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, like, didn't get therapy, couldn't take a nap in the middle of the day. And so, you know, to recognize, like, that's where the advice is coming from, is they did not have, whether legally or financially, the spaciousness to take care of themselves in that way. You know, so I can value it, I can appreciate it, I can celebrate it without having to duplicate it. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, it's like, what's the wisdom in that? That I want to learn, but how do I also want to modify it for myself? That I'm not a terrible person if I take a nap? That I'm not a terrible person if I sometimes say no to people's Request for me to give up my Saturday for everybody else. And so I can build on their example but also create some new examples.
- [25:04]
B
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And also like off topic, but not really, like coming to the beauty industry. I talk a lot about like, you know, beauty products and brands and stuff on here. And one of the things I've seen, and it's actually bothering me, and it's been bothering me for a long time, is that we have finally, we're finally seeing a movement towards supporting black owned brands, supporting brands that are founded by people of color. Love that.
- [25:26]
A
Right.
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B
And like, I personally, I know, me and a lot of people I know have made decisions where we're like, I'm not going to buy from other brands. Like, I'm dedicating myself to this. I'm going to support only the brands that I want to buy from. Right. That's a choice I'm making. But then on the flip side, people will criticize you and say, well, that's also racist for you to do that. And I'm like, I don't know why we were even having that. We've been doing this for centuries where we didn't get the opportunity to do that. And now you want to bring that up. What are your thoughts on that?
- [25:57]
A
Yeah, I think it's the false parallel, the false existence of when people say reverse racism. So the reality is, the way it's been described is when you're used to having privilege, when things are more equitable, it feels unfair to you. Right. So when you're used to the magazines only highlighting images of yourself, and now you're like, we have these images of other people or these other people's products in them and they're taking jobs from the white models. So that's verse racism. It's like, no, that's why, you know, people have tried to make equity a bad word. What I, what I would say psychologically is it's masterful. Gaslighting. Yeah, right. And so what it does is that people who are speaking up for justice get accused of racism or sexism. Like if people say I'm for women's rights, then people will translate that to you hate men. Yeah, right, exactly. It is an attempt to silence, to shame. It is an attempt to bring back the world in which they love, which is oppressive. Right, right. So, you know, for me, when some people are upset with the efforts toward equity is confirmation that we're doing the right thing. It just is disturbing for them. Some people, if they're not being the center feel like something is wrong.
- [27:32]
B
Yeah, that's really, really powerful what you just said. I mean, and being in that position also, another thing that really irks me and it really disappoints me, I'm not gonna lie, is when I see the communities, right? Our communities, in my opinion, they matter more now than ever. Like, I'm Indian, for example. My community. To me, I will do everything I can to support another Indian person, another black person, anybody, you know, because I know that that's going in the long run. Even my little one vote with my $1 is going to make a change somewhere, you know, but then at the same time, we are breaking each other down, and no one wants to talk about that. If you bring it up, you become the villain and you get pulled out of the group. And. You know what I mean? Shunned from the group. But it's like, that's the reality. Like. Yeah, it's like clubhouses within clubhouses are being created and we're not tackling the problem. I mean, what are your thoughts on that in terms of why do people do that?
- [28:26]
A
Well, it is effective campaigning and propaganda created by those with the most power and resources is to keep people who are marginalized attacking each other. Because if we fight each other over these little things, we'll overlook the fact that the whole pie is actually on the other side of town. So then I can say, like, this isn't fair because you're. You're like, we're fighting over crime. And so for us to think strategically and collaboratively so that we can actually shift the larger pie. Right. That is the key. So what has happened is, you know, we've been told lies about each other and, you know, stereotypes about each other. And so then it becomes for marginalized people not to trust each other or to work with each other. Who does that serve? Yeah, right. Yeah. So it's. We can see how we got there. And it's so important for us to understand what it means to move in solidarity and to see the ways in which we are facing common injustices. And I'm going to include in that impoverished white folks who are often tricked into believing people of color and that immigrants are the enemy, are the reason why they're not wealthy, which is not, like, the actual barrier to their progression. So we have a lot of work to do for us to see the actual issue structurally, systemically, and to see that we actually have a lot in common.
- [30:06]
B
Yeah, we really do. You know, it's crazy because I talk about this with my friends A lot we talk about these topics of, like, when I first came to America, I was five years old, and for me, the first people that embraced me were young black girls that I met at high school. None of the white friends, they didn't care about me. They actually taught me how to do my. My hair. And it's like, I will never let go of that my entire life. And it left an impression on me about isn't just like, oh, obviously, like, I will always support black people at being Indian, being outside of the race, but it was more about feeling like I'm home somewhere. It was like, more than community. It was a feeling of home. And that's what I never see talked about. It's not just like, we're supporting our communities. We're creating a new home for ourselves. And, like, you know, we have to do that at this.
- [30:52]
A
I love that, because as you're naming, it's also like the revolution in our own intimate spaces.
- [31:00]
B
Yeah.
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A
You know, we can think about, like, these large policy things that we need to work for, but also what it means for us to welcome each other in and to provide that care and that comfort and that affirmation and that belongingness. Right. And this is more than tolerance. You know, people like to promote that word tolerance or intolerance, know, to be celebrated. Right. To be seen, to be welcomed, to be respected, to be appreciated. That's what we need to do so that the intimate revolution of welcoming each other home.
- [31:35]
B
Yeah. I. I really would love to see that, like, vibe just, like, out there, you know, like. And get over, like, the hoops of, like, can't say this. I can't show up like this. You know, it's like, almost like we're always putting on a front, front of, like, inclusivity, and it's like, let's get over that. You know, let's actually be inclusive, like. Yeah. And.
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A
And I appreciate you sharing the story because I think, you know, the stories of the divisions are often amplified, and we miss, like, these beautiful stories, beautiful moments of the times when we have been able to be at home with each other. Yeah.
- [32:09]
B
Yeah. And you don't know what that's gonna. That's what I like, genuinely in my soul. I don't get why people don't realize. You don't know what home's gonna feel like till you feel it. And you don't know where that's gon be. You know, especially if anyone out there, if you've traveled, you know, before and you've been to, like, some foreign Land. And you felt like, oh, my God, I feel more at home here than my home, you know?
- [32:30]
A
Like, it's true.
- [32:31]
B
It's just the universal language. Like, huh.
- [32:34]
A
The state of mind, the state of the heart, the freedom to be fully myself and be embraced as my full self.
- [32:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to talk about women because I feel like your work really speaks to, I think, a lot of what women go through and what we struggle with a lot. And I think one of my big questions, and I've really resonated with this one statement, which is, women need to stop saying, I'm a woman in business or I'm a woman founder. And we need to just really hone in on this idea of, like, I'm a human being that's just really good at what I do, you know? And I've heard that argument, and I do somewhat align with it. But, like, I'm curious, where do you think we can have a little bit of flexibility there where we're still able to address the real concerns that exist based on our race, our gender, and all of these things that are marginalizing us, but then also still kind of hold on to that power of, like, yeah, I am a human being that's just doing great things in life, you know?
- [33:27]
A
So I think it's important for us to consider, like, all of us have, like, these three levels. We're all human beings, and then we all have various identity groups that we're a part of, and then we're. We're all, like, unique individuals.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah.
- [33:43]
A
And when we hold that all three of those things are true simultaneously, we never again have to say, I'm not a woman, or, I'm not black. I'm human. Because that creates the idea that humans are not these things. Yeah, right. So it's like, no, no, no, I'm not black. I'm a human being. Like, yeah, black people are human. So it's like. It's almost like a false choice. And then that unique self is just that, like, sometimes if I'm in a space where there are not a lot of black people, and I do something and people are like, oh, is that a black thing? And it's like, no, it's just a.
- [34:17]
B
Right.
- [34:18]
A
So there's some stuff that's just like, you. And so, like, I get it when we're like, I don't want to be chosen because I was the identity that was missing on their table. I want people to know, you know, that I'm qualified and all of these things. And at the same time, There can be a beauty in being in particular places with my identity. Because sometimes, you know, you mentioned business. Sometimes people can think that to be a good business person I have to suppress my womanhood. Yeah. As opposed to, especially as we look around the world today, wouldn't we benefit from some spaces where like a woman and leader in leadership showed up, up with a mindset that was not like this stereotypical hyper masculine version of leadership? Right, right. And so to be present as myself so that I'm not a token or like does me being present change the table at all? Does it enhance the room? And if I have to leave all of my selfness out, then that won't happen. Yeah, right. Then it could be like I'm just going to do it like everyone else. But maybe what we need is to do it a new way.
- [35:43]
B
Yeah, no, I love that. I'm. Yeah, I really resonate with that, I think more than anything else because I mean, I get it right. Where it's like you want to make an impact. I know for me being in science, that's been my lifelong like struggle and like life overall, you know, it's like competing with the men, being sure that I'm, you know, like not leaning onto like things that I really genuinely feel like I'm being discriminated over, you know, like it's not that they went away. I just felt like I could never speak about it because if I did, that weakens my argument for my credentials, my expertise or whatever. A lot of women are doing that these days. They're like, well, don't talk about being a woman, you know, just be a leader. And it's like I can be both.
- [36:22]
A
Right. And, and the key is people act like the ones talking about it are the problem. Yeah, we're not the problem, we're pointing out the problem. And so it's the mistaken belief that if you all would stop talking about it, everything would be fine.
- [36:37]
B
Yeah.
- [36:37]
A
Ye know, and we have seen for generations when it's not talked about, it's not fine. Right. Yes, exactly.
- [36:45]
B
Like we're not there yet where we can stop talking about this stuff. Like, like I totally get it. We all want that, like that this beautiful happy day where we wake up and as women we don't feel like we're being discriminated against.
- [36:57]
A
Right.
- [36:58]
B
Hallelujah. Would love to see that day come, you know, but like at the end of the day it's not there. And if we stop, stop and we don't talk about this now, it's never,
- [37:07]
A
not only and not only do we get frozen in time, but what we see happening is we actually go back. Right. So we actually lose rights, we lose access. We see the large scale discrimination, harassment, assault, violence, all of those things without punishment, without penalty, without justice. Justice. So our silence will not save us. And pretending things don't exist doesn't make them go away.
- [37:36]
B
Yes, 100%. This is like healing me talking to you. I just want to say I'm loving it.
- [37:42]
A
I love your questions and reflections.
- [37:45]
B
Thank you. No, this is, it's such a privilege to have this insight from you because, like I sit around and I, I try to start this podcast and I. This is one of the questions I had for you actually was there was a quote I put on my little page and I said, just because I sound educated doesn't mean I'm white. And I had a lot of people give me feedback that. Because they resonated with that, you know, and as being Indian American, I grew up being told, you need to talk this way, you know, you need to present yourself in the most professional way imaginable or no one is going to take you seriously and you're not going to be in the same level, you know, as everybody else. And I'd love for you to kind of shed light on that. Where in different races, different cultures, we're often asked to give up our cultural prints, you know, fingerprints, just to fit into this mold. And what that means for us in
- [38:31]
A
the long run, yes, there is, Is additional emotional labor and erasure. And what the silent and sometimes not so silent message is, is that your culture is not professional. Right. And so to think about, like, psychologically, the psychological warfare of that, to believe I cannot be who I am if I want to be worthy, that I have to be the most I can to be like you, you to be worthy. Instead of what would it mean for me to shift the environment where I can be present, where I can actually be present. And, you know, a part of that then is I think of it as holding the door open. What am I doing in the spaces I am in that will hopefully make it more welcoming for those who are coming after. Right. That in my presence, but also in the ways in which I show up, how that can broaden the door, the possibility, the expectation.
- [39:40]
B
Right. That makes a lot of sense.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah.
- [39:42]
B
I just feel like there needs to be. I don't even want to say forgiveness, but like, acceptance of, like. Well, if I speak whatever way, you know, a lot of us do, a lot of cultures, we have our own almost dialect at this point, we might all be living in America, speaking English, but we all have a. A way of saying things, and I'm so sick of that. People call it slang or whatever, being interpreted as unprofessional or you're not serious,
- [40:08]
A
or I hate that it's selective usage because white people will take that and use it.
- [40:14]
B
Yeah.
- [40:15]
A
You know, there was a poem that said they love everything about you but you. Yes, right. Yeah. So we love your culture, we love your food, we love the way you all say that. But then when you say it, it's a problem. But if I can extract it from you, and that makes me more cool, more in, more hip, more whatever. So I just take it out of here with all of that. That our stuff is magnificent and everybody knows it. That's right.
- [40:41]
B
That's right. I love that. And also, like, please start saying culture. Like, that's honestly one of my biggest qualms. If you're taking from black culture, say the word culture. It's a culture. If you're taking from Indian culture, say the word culture. You know what I mean?
- [40:54]
A
Like, let's stop pretending you make made up stuff for not recognizing its roots, its origins, its creators. Yeah. Yeah.
- [41:03]
B
Well, Dr. Bryant, this has been such an honor. I am so grateful. Like, thank you for doing what you do. I feel like everybody in the world needs to hear you because this is the kind of conversation that really kind of leaves you, like, you think. And I think we need that in this world nowadays. People are not thinking. I'm just gonna say that we're not sitting down and like, evaluating, you know, like, what' right in front of our face. So I just thank you so much for your time and your wisdom.
- [41:32]
A
Thank you. I so enjoyed it. I appreciate you and appreciate you holding this space. So, yes, a big thank you.
- [41:39]
B
Thank you so much.