← Skin Anarchy
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is a very, very special episode and I am truly honored to be hosting our guest today. He is literally the trailblazer when it comes to dermatology communication and, like, educating us online. He has over 20 million followers. Many of you might recognize him. He was on our show very early on, and I was so honored to host him back then. And since then, he's launched his own skincare line and has expanded so much in this space. So without further ado, please welcome Dr. Muneeb Shah back to the show. Welcome, Dr. Shah.
- [00:29]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having me back on. The first time was a blast. I have a ton of updates, life updates. You know, I think this is even before Remedy and before I had my daughter. So, you know, life is very different than it was the last time that we chatted.
- [00:41]
A
I know, it's. You've been absolutely killing it. And I mean, I am a huge, huge fan girl of Remedy. I mean, what you've created is extraordinary, genuinely. And I think it was when I first saw the line, I was so excited that you made it the way you did and the way the products change. Just sit in this space and what they do. But all that aside, I want to get started and I actually would love to, like, learn more about, you know, what made you want to start the brand, because I know we didn't get to talk about that last time. Like, what made you want to go in that direction?
- [01:09]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, there's the education piece, right. And initially I was seeing patients in the office, right. And each patient I was educating in a very bespoke way. And then pandemic hits. I'm scrolling TikTok myself seeing a lot of misinformation. I find this opportunity to educate people at large. And so sometimes it's hard to get the nuance that you would in a patient room where you're knowing the person specifically and their needs. But you try to get a broad message that's generalizable and can have impact on lots of people around the world. And I started to work with lots of brands in different capacities. A lot of what people see on social media is when I do any sponsorship work, for example. But those sponsorship work a lot of times turned into consulting work, contracting work, and development work. So I started to develop products for lots of brands. And I realized that there's this opportunity to really take more risks with a brand, make products the way that dermatologists just really treat skin in clinic, combine multiple ingredients into one formula. So Some people. People get more impact from their formulas. And so I just saw this white space that. Similar to content, where it's like you can do one at a time in the office. This is a way to basically get great products to lots of people with the nuances that I find important. And it's not just about what we put in the formula. It's also what we keep out of the formula, where we source ingredients from, you know, how we look at allergens and as they emerge and they change how we remove them from our formulas. And so it just gives you a lot of control over the formulas to create better products that. For. For a large group that I was educating on social media. And so, I don't know, it's my new hill to climb. I keep saying, you know, content was a hill at one point, and this is my new hill is. Is building a brand that really becomes a legacy brand.
- [02:42]
A
I love that. And, you know, I think for me, when I first saw the brand launch, it was cool because for so long you were educating on like, guys, this works. This doesn't work. You know, And I remember the first time we spoke and you were on the show, I remember asking you a question. I don't know if you remember, but I was like, Dr. Shot, does the finger trick work for the eye creams? Because back then, using their ring finger to apply eye cream and it was like, you know, a common myth. And I remember you were like, you laughed at the time and you were like, no, you know, that doesn't do anything. And that really speaks to, like, just how I've seen you in the space where it's like, you've always been debunking myths. And so when I saw Remedy, I was like, this is such a cool brand because it's like everything that we know is tried and true, you know, from the dermatology side, like, you've brought that forward in a very novel way. And I would love for you to speak on that honestly, because as you know, right now the industry is so saturated, you know, and there's so many angles people are coming at dermatology with, you know, whether it's like biotech or whatever. And I'd love to get your take on that in terms of what are the things you've noticed over the years that are like, yeah, this is what works. This is what your skin needs, and this is what it just doesn't need.
- [03:46]
B
Yeah, it's a good. It's a really good question. And I think it's becoming more and More important to your point, it's actually easier than ever to launch a product. You know, there's contract manufacturers that have white labeled formulas. You as a brand, if you have enough capital or you have a distribution network, whether you have an audience or have an office, for example, you, you can just take products off the shelf, throw your label on them and launch them, right? So it's not hard to launch products if you have the capital and the distribution network to support it. It's hard to launch good products because they take a lot of nuance and development and time and stability testing, right? Like I have a very unstable vitamin C formula we created that, you know, after, you know, 30 different trials we ended up with our stable vitamin C formula, right? So there's a lot of nuance to making great formulas that are not white label formula, which is a policy of ours. And so I think for me it's been the same things that are tried and true over time have consistent, right? There is lots of trends on social media, right? So you'll see some ingredient like pdrn, which I'm not saying PDRN doesn't have any value or efficacy. It's actually really big in East Asia and a lot of the derms there are actually the champions of it in East Asia, right. Especially the injectable form, right. So I'm not saying that that doesn't have validity or evidence. Time will tell if this is something that stands the test of time. But you have all these really trending and viral ingredients, right? And then you have these contract manufacturers that have stock formulas. And so what you end up having is all you keep seeing is these same products getting launched over and over again is because brands go, ok, well PDRN is popping off. Let me throw my label on this stock PDRN formula and see how it does within my brand. Right? And so I think that works to get you a big sales bump, but it doesn't build a brand that people truly, truly love. And so our formulation philosophy is we start with a patient need and it doesn't matter if it's trending or not, right? We start with the patient need and then if this is a product that basically would benefit our patients, then we know that eventually someone's going to find it and benefit from it and maybe, maybe it's not going to do amazing at launch, but we know that, that people gravitate towards it because it's a real patient need. Now there's always marketing right on top of it's a marketing layer, right? Where it's like Okay, I have a product that patients need. But this concept is really trending right now. Right. Or people really care about, like, skin flooding. So how do we position our product within this, like, marketing language that's popular right now, or insert ourselves into a trend? But I think the products have to be really great products that people will use forever. And they have to use ingredients that truly have the efficacy studies on them, like your retinoids, for example, that I've always been a big proponent of. Your alpha hydroxy peroxy acids that have tons of evidence for them. Some peptides have lots of evidence for them, not all of them ceramides, you know, for skin barrier. Niacinamide is a tried and true ingredient. Azelaic acid is a tried and true ingredient. So we really leverage our formulas around these tried and true ingredients. And then maybe when it gets to marketing, we'll try to insert ourselves into a trend. But the formula has to be, and I think if you do it the opposite way, where the product comes from, a marketing trend, I think that's where you become really problematic.
- [06:36]
A
Yeah, absolutely. No, I couldn't agree with you more. And I think I've definitely, as a consumer, fallen prey to a lot of products like that where it really does, like, hurt your skin health for a long, long time. And I remember, like, even before I started this podcast, there were so many products I tried that were like, that are very trend driven. And I found myself literally buying like 50 extra products just to heal my skin. And so, you know, I completely resonate with what you said. And again, like, no hate towards ingredients like PDRN or anything, but it's like, I just wonder, like, in this industry, like, when are we gonna get to the point where it' we have to understand, like, where the efficacy truly is. And like, let's hone in on that and like, dive deeper, you know, like, let's do more studies. Let's understand the more mechanistic aspects of these, like, like Az. Lake. You brought up Azalec. We don't know nearly enough, I think, about azelaic acid and we could, you know, definitely learn more. So I hear what you're saying.
- [07:26]
B
Actually, I, I think the marketing side is actually so fascinating to me because when I talk to my team about a particular product they'll make, they'll, they'll say something about another brand. For example, they'll say, oh, this brand has a really interesting surfactant technology in their formulas. And I go, well, why do you think that? And they go, well, the packaging says next Generation biomimetic surfactant technology on it, Right. You know, and I go, well, what does that mean? So we started to kind of, like, you know, work backwards on it. And the marketing element's so powerful, right? Like, they're using the same surfactants everybody's got in their formulas, right. You know, everyone's got the same surfactant bases. Like, no one's inventing new surfactant technologies. And it becomes this marketing layer, right, that very confusing to consumers, and it's very confusing to even, like, the more sophisticated consumer, right? Because there's just not enough knowledge about certain parts of a formula that you can really fall victim or prey to that. And it makes you think that this product is either more efficacious or something that you should be spending more money on. And this is, you know, where a lot of people spend a lot of their budgets is like, coming up with terminology that is meant to make something seem more advanced or more sophisticated than it is, and then you kind of fall prey to that.
- [08:33]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the big things I really would love for you to educate us here is since we last spoke, the GLP1s and, like, all the effects on the skin has absolutely, absolutely blown up. You know, I think there's been some education on it, but there's definitely still a huge gap in understanding. Like, you know, what is. What are they doing to our skin, Obviously, short term and long term. I'd love to have you educate us on that from your perspective. Like, if you are on a GLP1, what are some things that we should know about going into it? And then while we're on their journey, where are things we should care about when it comes to our skin health?
- [09:04]
B
Yeah. And I'm sure you've heard this before with GLP. GLP1s are exploding in use, Right. So I remember when it first. When people first started using them, like, was coming out of diabetes patients who, like, I lost a lot of weight. I'm on this GLP medication for diabetes. And then it started to become mainstream for people to lose weight. Right. So they were specifically using it as a weight loss, which is not really fully indicated for. But, you know, people are going to do what they want to do to. To lose weight. And some people are on it for the right indications. But I remember when it was just a few patients that had lost weight from this, and then suddenly it was a lot of pat. And then it felt like it was like every patient, you know, and it's probably not. It's probably about like 12% of the US population is on a GLP, which is a crazy, crazy number if you really think about it. And so now we really have to contend with, like, what is the proper thing to be doing while you're on a glp? If you're going to be on a GLP for whatever reason, medically indicated or not, what is the best way to basically support your health while you're on this? And so the main thing that we were seeing was termed ozempic phase. And they've come with all, all, all different terms for this at this point. But it really is just due to rapid weight loss to see it when people would get gastric bypass too. But it was so infrequent that we never really, like, thought to name it anything. But now that it's 12% of the population, we have to really think, we have to really contend with this. Like, what does it really look like? And this is something dermatologists actually don't probably know enough about or spend enough time thinking about, because we've never really had to contend with it. But there's also a nutrition element to this that I think is actually very important as a layer, right? Because I could talk to you all day about the skin stuff that's going to happen and we'll talk about that next. But there's a nutrition layer here, right, about getting enough protein, you know, because you're not going to want to eat and you're going to be losing a lot of weight and you need to be making sure that you're getting the right nutrients. So you have to have the right, you know, amino acids that you're taking the right, you know, other supplements that you're taking that maybe you're not getting. You need to be getting enough protein, for example, right, because there's going to be a lot of muscle loss that happens during this period. There's going to be a lot of fat loss that happens during this period. So there's a nutritional layer that's actually very important here. And I think anyone that's on a GLP really needs to optimize their nutrition while they're on it because you're eating less. But what you're eating really then matters and making sure that you have a balanced diet that you're not under indexing on any particular, really essential elements of your diet. So that's one layer that I think derms need to talk about and need to be part of the discussion when you're treating someone who's on a glp and then there's like the skin layer and the deeper layers. Right. And so during the weight loss process, the weight loss is happening oftentimes so fast that there's nothing you can do to like, really if it was like a gradual. But I think a lot of people are on too high of a dose initially. Sometimes even the starter dose is too high. Well, they'll lose like £30 in a month. And when you lose £30 in a month, there's really no skin treatment that can account for that loss of weight. To make your skin snap back the way that it, that it should as quickly as it could, it'll take a much longer time to keep up. And so there are a couple things you can do from like a topical skincare perspective and then a more aggressive skin perspective. So I'll kind of start there. Which is the topical skincare element of being on a glp, which you should be on. A retinoid, I think is probably the best collagen boosting or other collagen boosting ingredients. So retinoids, for example, whether it's retinol, tretinoin, retinol, whichever one you choose, an alpha hydroxy acid, like a glycolic acid, can help stimulate collagen production. Your peptides, like your matrixyl and other peptide ingredients that have been shown to support collagen is something that you should also consider being on during this period. And anything that's going to support your collagen and elasticity, maybe even like a copper peptide to the elasticity element of the skin to help your skin. But that's not going to, like, if you've lost a ton of fat or a lot of muscle, your skin might be healthy on the top surface. Collagen and your epidermal layer, your dermis and your epidermis, but beneath that, you've lost a lot of fat. So you're going to have that creepiness of the skin, you're going to have that undulations of the skin where you know, your skin is loose. And so what can you do in that case? And that's where you'd probably need to have either wait a long time for your skin to snap back, which a lot of times it does if the weight loss is not as aggressive or, you know, procedures like lasers, deeper chemical peels, and then sometimes even filler in certain areas around the bony structures to really support that weight loss. But, you know, if you lose a lot of weight rapidly, topical skincare can help, but it's not going to solve the Entire problem.
- [13:13]
A
That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, it's interesting that you brought up nutrition, and I'm glad you did because I also would love to see dermatologist. Dermatologist. Really step into the space of that nutritional component and really educate on, like, I mean, all we really hear about is like X grams of protein a day, you know, and we don't really learn about how should you be keeping up, what should you be measuring at regular doctor's visits, you know, those kind of things. Like, that conversation never happens. And it makes me wonder because we have this whole movement right now going on on the longevity side, right, where everyone's like, longevity, everything. But then at the same time, it's like, guys, like, before we get to the injectable peptides, can we talk about fiber? You know, can we talk, you know, these kind of things? I'd love to get your take on just longevity and dermatology at large. Like, where do you think we're going right now with this? And do you think we're putting that cart before the horse?
- [14:03]
B
It's a good question. Yeah, it is a really exciting time, really, in health in general. We're in a really interesting swing, I feel a very interesting part of the. The pendulum. Let's say there was a period in which, right, There was really this type of conversation, whatever you call it, whether you call it anti aging or longevity. Is anti. Is longevity just another word for anti aging? That could be debated, but these topics, right, of like, okay, I want to live longer and I want to live healthier and I want to do this. Prevent these preventative treatments in my dermatology office, for example, or I want to go to saunas, or I want to do these cold, plunging. Like this type of stuff really only happened in a small subsective society, right? And these aren't people that generally have a lot of means or have a lot of access, like a celebrity, for example, right? And. And we exist now in a time that's really, really interesting to me because the information is actually everyone can consume it. Like, there's no limits to the amount of information. Lots of bad information out there, but there's no limits to the amount of information that's out there and the access that people have to it, right? So you could see how anyone lives, right? Someone can go watch a Brian Johnson video and see everything. He's like a billionaire, right? And he is doing all his biohacking stuff, right? And he's trying to optimize his life so that he can live Better. And he's testing and trying all these things. And you know, you could, no matter what walk of life you're from, you can log onto YouTube and you can what he's doing, right? And so you have access to all this information. Even, you know, you have these AI tools that can give you good and bad information. You have all these influencers that are creating content online. You have all these celebrities that are being honest about the procedures and stuff that we're having done. And so we're at this time where we have this like information access. And it's actually starting to coincide with an accessibility piece where now you actually not only do you have this information, but you almost kind of starting to have access to these things as well, right? Like you can just go online and go to, you know, a peptide, you know, telehealth website and you can order peptides online, right? So now you have the information and you have access to actually do something about it, right? And it used to be, right, okay, if you wanted to get one of these really advanced laser procedures, you'd have to go to some really expert dermatologist that was probably booked out for a long time. He's the only one that had the device, or she's the only one that had the device. And it was going to be very expensive, so it was off the table anyway, even if you heard about it, right? So you have all this information and you have more access because now there's med spots popping up everywhere. You know, anyone can go operate a laser device, whether that's good or bad. Anyone can go online and order peptides, right? So we're at this like really like, okay, what's going on? Like you have all this information and you have all this access. And so, so this I think is an exciting time to like watch this happen. Because on this side of the pendulum, I think you're going to need this regulation now to come in and this regulation layer, whether it's imposed by like a governmental organization or it's going to be self imposed, right? Because what's going to end up happening is a lot of people have bad negative consequences from injecting peptides, for example, and then they're going to go, actually, maybe I should try to figure out where I'm getting these things from. And maybe this should be regulated and maybe I should look for something that's FDA approved, for example, and then it's going to swing sort of back into a territory where there's like some regulation to this access. And same thing with like Med spas, these unregulated med spas, people are going to get injured, unfortunately, and you see cases of that and then people will go, okay, maybe I should actually be vetting the people. Yeah, I, I know I wanted that laser procedure, but I probably vet who's going to do it, right? And here are the ones that are good because, you know, there's some vetting process in place and maybe they're credentialed in some way, maybe they're board certified, even, that'd be awesome. But the reality is like, people are going to do what they want to do if they've heard about something and they're excited about it and their friend got it done, for example. So, you know, we're at this really interesting inflection point where I think, you know, experts like yourself, like doing podcasts like these are really helpful because they help people navigate all this information that's out there to make better choices for their skin health and health in general. You know, I think longevity is interesting. You know, to me, it's really just what people have always been trying to achieve through anti aging. And it's just become maybe a bit more of an extreme form of that kind of like looks maxing, Right. Like, I don't know if you've seen this looks maxing trend amongst men, but it's really just trying to maximize your looks, which always existed in the bodybuilding community and now is just extended to like facial skin care, injectables, hair care. Right. So it's just like instead of just the body, now it's extended to the face and they're taking very extreme measures to achieve that. Right. So longevity is really just similar to anti aging and to bodybuilding in the sense that it's a more extreme form of maybe maximizing your health. And I think all of us are trying to aim for some degree of longevity. So I'm not against longevity and all of us are trying to aim to looks backs also. Right. But we just what extent are we willing to go is a bit different. Right. And so there, there's some middle ground here, I guess, is what I'm saying. And so we're at this exciting time where there are these really new, exciting PEPT that are coming to market that have some like, initial preliminary, you know, phase one, phase two studies that are actually really exciting. And if they end up panning out to be safe and effective, like they will help lots of people like GLPs. I think GLPs help lots, lots and lots of people. You know, I Think there's an epidemic related to weight in this country, an epidemic related to diabetes in this country that was really damaging to health, Right. In general, Fatty liver disease, you know, cardiovascular disease, kidney disease, for example. Right. So it's like, these things are important. And so I'm excited about the technology that's coming out. As a scientist, as a doctor, I'm nervous about the access and lack of regulation. And once these two coincide with each other, I think we'll actually be in a better place. So I'm, you know, longevity is exciting to me. I'm willing to always try and learn about more stuff. I'm not like one of the fully skeptic people that you'll see online, and I'm not like the fully bullish people. I kind of live in, like, the middle zone. And so all my takes are always, like, a middle ground take, you know, on, On. On any of those things.
- [19:28]
A
I like that. No, I think I'm very much there with you, honestly. And I, I love everything you said because you know what? Fascinating to me. I'm just wondering where all the immunologists are in this whole, like, peptide conversation. Like, I had a conversation the other day with a friend of mine. She's an immunologist. I'm like, why don't you create a video about something, you know, because, like, peptides, like, that's one of the things. Like, it's cool that we're coming up with all these, like, interventions now, right? But it's like, there is serious science that is way beyond clinical medicine that's coming into play. And I would love to see the PhDs and the researchers that have been working in these fields come forward and be like, yo, that. That peptide you got at XYZ Pharmacy, it's probably going to lead to a serious immune reaction, if you like that kind of conversation. And I just don't see it. And it's not that there's anything wrong with peptides. It's just that, like, what you were saying, the regulatory component, it's not even close to being where it needs to be. And God knows how many years it's going to take, you know, So I wish, like, there were more experts, you know, that were just, like, coming out and saying, Here's 15 reasons why I say pros and cons, that kind of thing. But I'm with you. I'm in that middle ground, too, with longevity.
- [20:39]
B
It's actually a really good point that you bring up on the immunology piece because it is something no one ever talks about. But actually a lot of the side effects that people have to some of these medications are immunological side effects even to your GLP is a lot of people actually develop antibodies to GLPs. Now it doesn't mean it's not going to make them effective, but your body recognizes it's a foreign invader and tries to neutralize it. In an attempt to neutralize it, a lot of people will get injection site reactions, some people will get fevers, some people will get muscle aches or I feel like you have a flu every time you inject Ozempic for example. And a lot of that is immunologic side effect. No one talks about it. Right. And no one talks about like what does that mean to have some type of inflammatory reaction in the body to something that you're injecting into the body. Right. Because our body does a good job of, of trying to neutralize invaders.
- [21:23]
A
Right.
- [21:23]
B
And you have a really good point. I don't know if you're familiar with the PD1 inhibitors in oncology which allow your immune system to kill cancer cells. And I remember when that first came out, everyone's super bullish on this technology. It's like, whoa, we got this new medication and I remember Dr. Maxwell and I who did YouTube together, we actually wrote like the first case report on like a side these medications which was the body started to attack the pancreas and this patient developed diabetes, like type 1 diabetes as a 70 year old from taking PD1 inhibitor medications. And now it's common knowledge in the literature that a lot of patients will have immunologic side effects to PD1 inhibitors. But at the time it wasn't common knowledge because people weren't thinking about the immunological consequences, self immunological consequences to being on these medications. And so it is something that is always not within the realm of thought for a lot of people. But it's a really important thing. And I actually think to your point, like an extension of this is we can no longer operate in silos as medical professionals anymore. I was saying about if you're on a glp, you need to be thinking about nutrition. That means the dermatologists need to be collaborating with nutritionists and gastroenterologists on these types of and weight loss experts on what should we be telling our patients who are on GLPs? Oh, they shouldn't just be getting corrective laser treatments. They should be on a proper nutritional diet. If you're going to be on peptides, for example, like what other things should we be thinking about for your body outside of just like surface level, organ based approach to this. Right. Like there should be a team of people who are thinking about how to approach these types of patients. And so I think there's going to be need to be more collaboration amongst medical professionals, especially as people start thinking about longevity. Because longevity is not just the face, the skin, the hair. Right. There's the internal consequences of that as well. Right. So it is interesting. Like, I think we're entering a totally new way of looking at how we think about health and medicine.
- [23:13]
A
I love that. Yeah. And I, I, I couldn't agree more with you. I think I'm excited because of exactly what you said, where it's like, this is a great opportunity for medicine to really come together and be like, let's have like multidisciplinary practices, you know, like, let's create entire like epicenters of medicine that are going to target so many diseases in so many different ways and angles and people don't have to go to multiple doctors. You know, like, I remember I went to an endocrinologist recently and I was asking about like hair loss because I'm, you know, getting older and I'm losing hair. And I was like, should I go talk to my derm? And the endocrinologist was like, honestly, I have no idea what's going on with you. That was like, how cool would it be if you had a derm in your practice? You know, like you just, you have the same person here. So yeah, I think it's, it's an exciting time, I think for medicine also, 100%.
- [23:57]
B
And I think actually that application layer is going to get lost. Right. With the developing technology. Right. Telemedicine is allowing people have access to the medications better than ever. Right. So say for example, example, you know, somebody's online, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, I imagine they prefer to do everything online. Could be wrong. There's probably a subset that want to go see the doctor in person, but probably some of them are like, can I get this thing online? Right? So they go, I got hair loss. They do some research, they go to Reddit, they watch some YouTube videos, they watch the podcast, they come back with the conclusion, they ask ChatGPT, they come back, they go, well, I need to be on minoxidil, finasteride, spironolactone if I'm a female, right? And they go, okay, where am I going to get that from? They go to hims, hers, wherever telemedicine company offers it, right? They ask for it, they get it, shows up at their door, right? Turns out they have thyroid disease, right? No one asked the question because why would they? Right? Because like this element of integrated medicine is being completely removed. That layer is getting completely removed by this process. It's like, how do we contend with this? Right? There's no way to insert ourselves into this conversation. Like, we've been totally removed from this conversation if you think about it.
- [25:01]
A
Absolutely. And you know, I want to actually really point this out because your platform to me has been honest to God, like before I even got to interview you, it has been one of the most responsible platforms I've ever, ever seen from a person who's educating about science. Because I've never seen you go crazy with anything. That middle ground thing, like you really maintain that. And I want you to really talk about this because you have literally created a movement, you know, in this space of like scientific communication online. And I feel like when I go online right now, I open Instagram, there's so many polarized opinions and a lot of times these people, you have these crazy scientific beliefs. That's fine, that's how science grows. But at the same time, there's also responsibility you have to your consumers, to your audience. And I would love for you to speak on this about creating content that's still educational, but you're not misleading somebody because whoever's watching your content, they're going to interpret it the way they're going to interpret it. And exactly what you were just speaking on, they're going to go and do whatever it is, whether that's like that, one of these telehealth pharmacies or whatever, you know. And so what is your take on that in terms of being responsible with content creation?
- [26:08]
B
Yeah, we talk about this a lot actually, internally. Is this valuable to people? Is this enough information? And I think the trouble is short form a lot of times is lacking of nuance and that's the nature of short form content. So you can't get everything in there, right? So you have to try to see how, how can I make this still entertaining, get the points across, make sure all the things that are important, nuances are mentioned. But then there's always something that's going to get lost in the conversation. Right? So no one, I think, can get it perfect in short form. YouTube podcasts, I think you can really go into the details where you can make sure that you're caveating everything. You're, you're adding different, like, you know, layers to what you're saying and you can get the point across. Right. So I think the way we communicate or the platforms we communicate on limit our ability to really be as nuance as I'd like to be in some cases. But even then with short form content, I try my best to try to make sure that anything really important ends up in that piece of content. I think that as far as like these different polarizing points of view, I kind of see the both spectrum of it and I see the inclination to lean one direction or the other. There's a lot of people who will say it's sort of interesting. Like let's say we take a conversation like parabens or we take a conversation like fragrance or we take a conversation like anything that you know has been fear migrated. Chemical sunscreens, for example. Right. Like we take any benzene, for example. Right. If you take any of these like particular topics, right. There's going to be very polarizing views. There's going to be somebody on the, on the maybe deep chemical side that's going to say hey, these are safe, completely safe. Right. And you have these other people that are like these are completely toxic. Right. And it's like how can both of them be be right at the same time? Someone's got to be wrong, right? Reality is like they're probably both wrong to some extent. And so I think it's very enticing to speak in absolutes always because it's, it's clear and you put your foot on the ground on things. But I think when you speak in absolutes, most of the time you're going to be wrong because there's not enough information out there. Right. Like chemical sunscreen debate, which I personally wear chemical sunscreens. That is a personal decision. You know, I like the way that they look on my skin. I prefer chemical sunscreens personally. But there is data that they absorb into the body more than we thought they did. Is that good? We don't know. Is that bad? We have no idea. Right. And so to absolutely say these are completely safe and nothing bad will ever happen to you, that's a dangerous absolute to live in in my mind because there is a nuance there that we could be wrong. Like the data is not yet there that says yes, like we have a body of data that says they're probably ok, but like to absolutely say they're okay. And then on the flip side, there's no evidence from those studies that say that these are actually bad for the body. Right. Like it's just like they do absorb More. And maybe there's some smaller studies that show different interactions with chemicals in our body that can theoretically be harmful. They've never been shown to cause harm in anybody. Right. Cause that's why they're still available on the market. Right. And so you have these, like, two absolutes that are, like, not fully supported by evidence. And then if you live in this world where you're always giving absolutes, you're gonna be wrong sometimes, even if you had the best intentions.
- [28:52]
A
And.
- [28:52]
B
And then the more times you're wrong, the less people trust you. And I think a classic example of this was Covid. Covid was like, every single person was coming out of speaking in absolutes about, you know, what to do and how to do it. And masks are doing this, and if you distance and you do this, or, oh, you got to take some crazy medication that you know is going to save you. And everyone's just making all these. And nobody knows anything yet. Right. Like for all, like dealing with such limited information. Right. And the problem there, the problem with always being so certain and trying to be first with being certain is that now nobody trusts anybody anym. And then you've lost trust for the medical community because everyone was making these assertions before they had the information. And so I think, as a content creator or somebody who's a science educator online, is that you have to resist the temptation to insert yourself in every conversation before all the information is out there, and then be humble enough to go back and say, hey, either I was wrong, you know, I assume something and I was wrong, or you need to put the nuance in there and say, hey, this is what I'm doing based on what I know. But I could be wrong because we don't fully know everything yet. And I think that's how you build trust with people over time. Right? Because there's like a trust element. If no one trusts what you say, then, you know, you could talk all you want. So you have to earn people's trust and try to keep it. And I, a hundred percent, Dr. Maxfield and I always say this in videos, like, we're going to be wrong about things. We making our best estimation based on everything we've learned. And we've done our best to cut through all of the science that's out there, but new information will come out eventually that will make some of our old content look wrong. And it's chance we take and we hope that people trust us enough for us to go back and fix some of those mistakes. And so I try not to speak in absolutes. I try not to be the first to react to anything, and I try to apologize when I'm wrong. And so that's how I try to position it.
- [30:24]
A
I love that. Well, thank you so much for being so, like, just honest and, like, being, like, real about it. You know, I honestly cannot say how valuable that is, because even as somebody who has studied science my whole life, I go online to learn. I do it every day. You know, like, I'm looking for experts every day to teach me about stuff. And there's so many times where I'm like, I don't understand why you're so adamant, you know, like, about your take. Like, just. Just be a little humble about it, you know, just. And so, yeah, your message is so important. So thank you for sharing that. You know, I think my last question for you is really about right now, especially dermatology, especially in skin care. Everybody is trying to find their place. It feels like, you know, when I go online and I see all the people that are educating, they're trying to find their niche and their space. I would love for you to offer some words of wisdom here about growing as a young doctor. Like, say you're a young, young physician, you want to grow yourself on social media, you want to grow your presence, your influence. What are some words of wisdom they can take with them to really do it in a way that. That's meaningful?
- [31:21]
B
Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I think that's a really good question. A lot of young derms ask me this question, but I think the first thing I would say is, like, the skincare community in general is truly a community, and it's made of lots of different contributing folks. Right? You have dermatologists. We have our clinical expertise. We have our knowledge from what we see with patients. Right? We have our feedback that we get from our patients. And we have our knowledge that we have about understanding scientific literature the best of our abilities. Right? You have chemists who have a lot of knowledge about the chemical structure of ingredients, ingredients. They have some knowledge of toxicology. They have, you know, knowledge of, you know, how to maybe potentially formulate things. They're contributors to the conversation. You have skincare enthusiasts who try lots of products and give you their honest opinion. They're valuable, too, right? Because they're going to tell you, are you going to like this product when you put it on your skin? Like, they're going to say, hey, I have rosacea and I tried this and it really helped me. Right. That's valuable, too. Right. So I feel like the skincare community, like, everybody has a voice. Nobody's opinion is, like, more valid in my mind than anyone else's opinion. It's just a piece of the puzzle helping where he's trying to find the ultimate type of things that are going to help them, right. And so I have my lane and I try to stay in my lane, right. But there's a community at large and I listen to everybody, right. Like, I, James Wells, YouTuber in the UK, love his recommendations. I think he's super honest. I think his recommendations are super solid. And when I watch his recommendations, I'm like, yeah, like, I would try that. That's, that looks like a really good take, you know. So ultimately, I think everyone, like, he's not an expert, never says to be an expert, but like, I find his, his advice credible and I find his take on skincare products credible. There's lots of people like this, but that's just one example. And so I think large everyone has a voice in it. And I just don't try to be something you're not. I think is, is, is one thing I'd say is like, don't try to be an expert when you're not an expert and don't try to be an enthusiast when you're not an enthusiast. I think that's important also, right, because it's tempting as a dermatologist to take a brand deal that is a consumer product to insert your authority, the responsibility of the white coat into that brand deal when it's not something a derm would recommend, right? So on the flip side, I don't think, I think if you're going to represent yourself as a derm online, take all the credibility and white coat and all the, all the, all the advantages that come with that, also have to take some of the restrictions that come with that too, which means that you can't just be like, saying things you like to do because you know you like to do them and they benefit you in the moment. So I think everyone kind of should try their best to stay in their lanes, but everyone is an important part of the conversation. And then I think on the, on the young experts coming up in the world, I think always important to get new people and new voices in. I think a lot of people see my platform, they say, oh, he's got 20 million followers. What am I going to say about dermatology? That hasn't been said. You know, I've made a video on everything at this point, I feel. And so why should Anyone else do this? And the reality is there's just lots of people who are not going to connect with me. Right? There's 20 million people that follow me. They're all over the world. Half are in the U.S. that means that in the U.S. alone, there are 340 million people that are unserviced by my content. Right. And you might make a video that connects with them, that I can't connect with them. They don't look like me, they don't talk like me. They don't. They find that I'm a male. They'd rather listen to a female, for example. Right. So there's a value to amplifying expertise. And I think that everyone still has like a voice and like, just stay true to yourself. Be unique in the way that you present things, be honest, be trustworthy, and be consistent over time. And like, you'll find your community that loves your type of content. I still think there's huge opportunities in content creation. I think more experts need to be doing it because there's more misinformation than there is good information still. And a lot of us who are experts, right, we follow a lot of other experts. So it feels like there's just so many experts online, but a lot of the consumers, they follow, like one expert maybe, you know, so. So the reality is there's actually, actually not enough experts. And so I think we need more. I think we need more nuance. I think we need different types. I don't think everyone needs to do the same type of content, you know, Like, I feel like everyone falls into that. They're just doing the same thing. But like, I like different form, like different forms of content, you know, different opinions on communicating, different ways of communicating. Like that's how we really going to break through. But I'm super excited. I mentor lots of young derms, especially, you know, I'm hopeful. I've seen this new wave of derms this last year, which I'm really excited about. You know, people are doing it in their own way and I'm like, good. Like, like, I need to stop doing this and we need to like, bring other people in is how I feel. You. I've been doing this six years. You know, I got to. I got to find something else to do at this point.
- [35:27]
A
No, but you've laid, you've laid a blueprint, though, you know, like you really laid a blueprint. And I feel like so many people have learned so much from what you've created, and I, I love that. And I love that you teach, like, that's awesome that you teach people how to get into the space, because for so long, doctors are siloed. You know, it's like you go through your training and then you go into clinical medicine, and that's all you do. And then this opens up so many avenues for, like, exploring so many fields. You never even thought, if you're somebody who loves research and you don't even. You love research, you might discover it through making content. You know, who knows? So it's really, really neat that you. That you mentor people and that you are advocating for people to come out in a meaningful way. So really hats off to you for that.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah. And I think your form of content, it's different, Right. Like, that's what's exciting to me is, like, when I see your videos online, you know, whether podcasts, but it's also like the short form stuff you've been doing lately. It's like a different way of communicating. It's a different form. It's a different perspective. Right. You're talking about things other people aren't talking about. And so I think that that's so needed. Right. Like, this type of content is so needed. And I appreciate anyone who and puts themselves out there. And to your point, I think I said earlier, like, a lot of people see the opportunities, like a brand deal, for example. What they don't see are the opportunities to consult, to develop, to change the way that the industry is moving to be on committees. Like, I'm on committees with the American Academy of Dermatology where I help with policy and things like that. So there's just so many ways to engage once you start creating content, beyond just creating content. So there's a whole nother layer of opportunities that I think is super exciting that one ever sees.
- [36:54]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Shaz. This was an incredible honor to host you again and I would love to have you back if you ever have the time for it, because I always learn so much and I know our audience really appreciates all of your insight. So thank you so much and thank you. Anyone listening. If you haven't checked out Remedy, you need to go check out Remedy. It's an amazing, amazing brand. Like, genuinely.
- [37:13]
B
So thank you so much. I appreciate that. It's good seeing you again.
- [37:17]
A
It was wonderful talking to you again. Thank you.