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- [00:00]
Narrator
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- [01:02]
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- [01:33]
Effy
Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is such a special episode for me because our guest today, I'm a big fan of hers and she has been such a monumental voice in the beauty industry and has changed so much and has been really up in the front when it comes to, you know, diversity and really bringing out the best of this industry. So without me ranting too much, I want to introduce you guys to Michelle Lee. Welcome, Michelle. I'm so, so honored to be hosting you.
- [01:57]
Michelle Lee
Hi there. So excited to be here. I'm thrilled and so excited always to talk about beauty.
- [02:03]
Effy
Effy. Yeah, no, I can't wait to chat with you because I mean, I look at your career and you've just already, you've accomplished so much and you've shifted the way this industry works and you know, things really like on a fundamental level, I mean, your work at Allure is just monumental how you know all the wonderful things you accomplished there and I'd love to get started in that way if you could kind of walk us down memory lane. And tell us about what got you into beauty in the first place. Like, what made you want to come into it.
- [02:28]
Michelle Lee
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I've been talking a lot with people about this and just, you know, in general, my career, and when I look back, I actually consider myself to be very much a generalist. When I was in college, I was like, that kid who. I had no idea what I wanted to do. At some point, I had to choose a major. And, you know, I had always really loved storytelling, writing, and so I chose journalism. Very specifically, magazine journalism. And so once I. I picked that route, I actually really wanted to go into fashion initially. So I moved up to New York City. My first job was at Glamour magazine, and I had a great internship where I got to spend two weeks in every department. So my first department was in the fashion closet. After, I think maybe it was like, day two, I was like, this is not the path for me. And so at some point, my. My next two weeks was spent in the articles department. I loved it because it kind of got me back to writing, editing, et cetera. And so, really, my path was less about the subject matter and more about. I loved storytelling. And so when I say to people I've done a bit of everything, like, it sounds a little crazy. I have written about pretty much every subject. I was a tech reporter. I've written about finance, kids and parenting, health and fitness. I was a cars writer for a while. I've written about extreme sports. I've done, like, lots of fun trips related to, like, snowboarding and other things. And really, I've always been kind of parallel to the world of beauty. I would say, looking back at my career, the one thing that tied everything together was really culture. I wrote about music, entertainment, culture in general. Right before I was hired at Allure, I was the editor in chief and chief marketing officer at Nylon, which Nylon at the time was still, you know, a very, very cool print magazine, had really started to grow its digital and social presence. We did about 70 live events a year as well, and very much rooted in, again, fashion, brand, beauty, culture, entertainment, music, all those things. So when I got hired at Allure, I don't think that I was like, you know, I feel like I kind of came out of nowhere because I was definitely not considered to be a beauty person. And looking back on my time there, I actually think that that was a real asset. The fact that I wasn't someone who was completely rooted in the beauty industry for my entire career. I was able to then look at beauty In a different way. And I looked at it very much through the lens of culture. And so when I was interviewing for the role, I think I probably. I mean, it was a long process that took probably about six months. I'd met, had like, 10 different rounds of interviews, and I had to do a presentation, basically. So I came up with this little deck of, you know, these are the things I would do with the brand. And one of those things was I really see a strong focus on diversity and inclusion. And this was. I'm trying to think of what year this was. This was when I started talking to them. I think it was like, 2014, and I ended up starting in 2015. It's hard to remember now because we see a lot more diversity and inclusion in every, you know, area.
- [05:32]
Effy
Yeah.
- [05:33]
Michelle Lee
In particular in beauty. But back then, if you, you know, transport yourself back to those days, it was not a big thing in media, wasn't a big thing in women's media, beauty, fashion, none of it. And so I think that came a lot from my own personal experience as well. So being an Asian American woman, I grew up in a time where, you know, I consider myself a child of the 80s and 90s, and I never felt like I fit in in the beauty world. So I would read magazines, books, you know, watch tv, movies, everything. And there were very few people who looked like me. And especially when I was reading things about, like, let's say, makeup, it was always, you know, put this color in your crease. And I was like, I don't have a crease. And so you just started to feel like, okay, I don't really belong in space. And so, because I always was that person who felt like I didn't belong, it was really important to me, not just for Asian Americans, but also for everyone, to make sure that we were building a space, that everyone felt included. And so I would say, like, looking back at Allure, my first year, I was very safe. I think I was like, oh, my God, this is a huge job. I don't want to, like, upset the apple cart. And looking back at my covers, like, other things, I was like, I could tell I was not risk taking. By the second year, I think I started to feel more confident and, you know, had my team set. And I would say, like, my team was incredible and honestly pushed me even more. And that's truly the best thing when you have other people around you who are like, let's push, push, push. And so we did great things that I feel like I still talk to people about, most notably I think people most know me for, during my time at Allure, we banned the term anti aging. I still get people reaching out to me being like, oh my God, thank you so much for doing that. And we still see the long term effects of that, of where now I do feel like we see more women over 40, over 50 in beauty campaigns, on runways and in other things. And we really pushed diversity across many different facets, not just on covers, but, you know, truly across all of our content. And we really, really meant it. Not just in terms of like representation, but we also, I think, made really great strides when it came to how we hired people. Not just full time staff, but also crews. So we would have very diverse, you know, photography crews, videography. And I really strongly believe that you get a better result when have diverse voices in the room.
- [07:56]
Effy
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's so monumental to me what you did with that, the, you know, really banning the whole anti aging thing and being part of that. Because I remember, you know, when I started this podcast, Understanding Beauty as a Consumer, it was like I hated seeing anti aging everywhere. You know what I mean? It was like, we shouldn't be talking like that. And so that's so huge to me that you were able to be at the front lines with this. Because I think even now, when you look at the beauty industry, I mean, it's a lot better, right? But it's still, we're dealing with these terminologies and especially even the diversity side of it, we're still having these battles, you know, and they're not as large maybe as I'm sure when you first stepped in. But like, it was, it's still going on. But I, I mean, you've made such great stride for the whole industry there. So that's.
- [08:39]
Michelle Lee
I think the thing is that we always wanted to do was we wanted to explore and kind of poke at beauty standards. And so even with the anti aging thing, I would say 95% of people were super positive about it. Like, we really wanted to spark conversation. And in that sense, I think we, we massively succeeded this phenomenon where it just got people talking about how we talk about aging and how we talk about women in aging specifically. Some of the criticism that we got though was like, well, but you guys are still talking about skincare products and Botox and like, you know, facelifts, etc. And so the point of what we were doing though was not to say like, don't do those things. It was that, don't feel like you need to be pressured by society to do anything if you don't want to. If you do want to get Botox, if you do want to use all the beauty products, absolutely do that. But as a society, we need to stop not making people feel like they're quote unquote old or ugly or other things. But if you want to do those things, there's also no shame in that. And so I think there was like a, you know, amidst some people, there was a bit of a misunderstanding of what that all meant. We weren't saying, like, stop doing everything. Like, obviously we are part of the beauty industry and we love it so much, but we also need to just stop and think a little bit about how people are feeling about things too. So again, I think it was very successful, but definitely noted some of the criticism and also made us think a little bit too of like, how, how are we as an organization helping to feed into some of those things?
- [10:06]
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's huge to just start that conversation, right? I mean, I feel like half the time battle is like taking that first step and that's where it's just, it's such a great thing that happened. And you know, I'm very curious because I love how you explained that you didn't feel like you really fit into the beauty industry. I think a lot of us can relate to that. You know, I definitely can. You know, growing up, I never felt like I fit in either, and for my own reasons. But like, when you look at beauty, right, like as a landscape, like, how do you, how do you perceive beauty now? Like, having had these roles and, and work behind the scenes so much, like, what does beauty really mean for you when you hear that word?
- [10:39]
Michelle Lee
Yeah. I, first of all, am such a cheerleader of the entire beauty industry. I love it so much. I do think that, you know, compared to other industries, I do find it to be incredibly friendly, inclusive. I feel like even just as a business and as an industry, the people who I've met in beauty are so wonderful. And like, I just, I, I love the vibe of the beauty industry. I would say what's changed probably in the past 10 years though is that hyper competitive, like, yeah, there's just so much more. So at the time that I started at Allure, for example, this was kind of pre, like huge beauty industry boom with all like the indie brands, etc, like I remember starting and some of the brands that we know now is like being, you know, hugely successful. The globe recipes, Summer Fridays, like those type of tatcha, those brands, they were just kind of getting started. And so in the past 10 years we've really seen this massive, massive explosion of the beauty industry just as a business. And so in that sense I feel like it's gotten crowded and it's gotten a little bit more confusing, I think. Right. Like because of social media, the Internet, everything. I do think that consumers for the most part are more educated about things like ingredients, but it also then causes a lot of confusion. So for example, in skincare, I've been talking a lot with people about, you know, there's this pressure for new skincare products and brands to always be innovative, but it's impossible. Right. So if you think about like the pressure of just how many skincare products are introduced every year, it's kind of impossible for everything to be, you know, asterisk, asterisk, like innovative, like this brand new thing, blah, blah, blah. And I think that by having that pressure it has caused a little bit more, I guess, doubt and skepticism among consumers. Right. Where if on social media every single thing that you see is innovative, it just means that nothing, nothing is really innovative anymore. So I'm actually hoping for, I think we're in this period right now of a little bit of a reset where some of the skincare brands that we've seen be super successful in the past. People are a little bit more skeptical about now. And I'm actually hoping that there are some new brands that kind of come out and like really take some time to tell their story and talk a little bit more about why they're special and everything. It's impossible for everything to be like mind blowingly innovative.
- [13:02]
Effy
Yeah, like new patents and like new technology everywhere. Yeah. And I hear you and that's so real because a lot of times most people, all they really need is really great hydrating products. Like let's be honest, you know, like it's half the time the skin problems that we deal with, that's really what we need from our skin care. So.
- [13:19]
Michelle Lee
Really? Well, I, I was explaining to you that I just got back from a week in Korea. Yeah, I spent a little time in Japan also. And so I have fully immersed myself in K beauty and like Korean skincare the past couple of years, like, and understanding more about it. And you are so right about the hydration thing that there's this brand mix soon that I'm like obsessed with that they have this whole line of just like single ingredient essences. And like it's really just a pure Centella. It's a pure Galactomyces. But like by layering all These things, it really does change your skin a lot. And so I am so obsessed with Korean products, Japanese products. Like, I just feel like there's a different. It's not only innovation, but, like, there's a different philosophy about products and ingredients there. That's, you know, it's about purity, but it's also about efficacy, and it's also about hydration. Like, I didn't realize until I got older. I just thought you slap on, like, a heavy moisturizer and you're fine. But, like, truly, my skin was just dehydrated, and so it's, you know, yes, you should drink water, but there needs to be hydration from the outside, too.
- [14:20]
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. And that's so. That's so fascinating that they're doing the single ingredient thing. I think that's brilliant, actually, because we have seen that, right. In the US like, hyaluronic acid was that. I remember, like, when I first saw the first hyaluronic serum was like. I forget the brand. It was a Japanese brand. And was it hc, I think had a labo.
- [14:41]
Michelle Lee
Oh, yep. Yeah.
- [14:42]
Effy
How to Lava was the first one I saw. And I remember thinking, I'm like, oh, that's amazing. And then hyaluronic acid just blew up. You know what I mean? In the US and it's like, now everyone's got one. But I feel like that's. It's one of the examples of where I think we did something right from a skincare standpoint. You know, it's like you have something that just brings moisture to your skin, and it's simple and it's easy to understand. And. Yeah, I just. I'm hoping that this K beauty movement kind of leads to more of that for us.
- [15:10]
Michelle Lee
The other thing I appreciate, too, beyond the hydration, is that a lot of us don't realize that we need soothing products, too, because, yes, if you have rosacea or other. Other issues with your skin where it, like, shows if you are, like, inflamed or other things. But honestly, most of us do need something that's quite soothing. So I do find also that Asian products, whether it's Korean or Japanese, have more of an emphasis on that soothing, too, which, again, just even from my own personal experience, has really helped my skin.
- [15:39]
Effy
Yeah. And also, like, now everyone's buzzing about, like, inflammation. Have you seen that? Like, everyone's, like, inflammasome and, like, all this. Yeah. And I think that's really what it comes down to is, like, we need things we can rely on. So I'm Curious. What is your like when you look at K Beauty, right, and how it's entering of the US market? Like, what's your opinion about that? Like the way it's being represented in the States. I know there's so many brands over there. So like the ones that are coming over, do you think they're like really representing what K Beauty can do?
- [16:06]
Michelle Lee
So I've given this so much thought and so one of the companies that I work with is truly one of the trailblazers in Korean beauty. So Landing International, they were like the big movement behind lots of the first wave of K Beauty brands like Cosrx and others. And so it's interesting to think about that first wave, right? When the Cosrx's and others kind of came here. There were actually a lot of brands back then that did not last. So basically a lot of them got into retail, but they didn't necessarily think about it. It costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of resources and time and effort to be successful here. You can't just get on the shelves of Sephora Ulta and expect that people are going to know what your brand is about and like just pick it up. So in that first wave, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of brands were kind of misrepresented. Cosrx I think, did a great job. So they really represented themselves well in terms of again, innovation, ingredients. People really became quite taken with, with things like snail mucin, et cetera. And they had a strong POV where the brands went wrong that didn't last. Again, they, they didn't do a great job of telling their story. So what people ended up glomming onto was kind of like this cutesy thing, right, where it was like, oh, K Beauty is this weird thing where like either the ingredients are strange or it's like gimmicky, that it's all like cutesy bunnies and stuff like that. And that was really the wrong message. When actually what K Beauty really represents is again this focus on hydration, on different ingredients. And so I think in the second wave of K Beauty brands are doing a phenomenal job of explaining how they're different and what's. What's changed, I think largely has been TikTok has been the big thing and Amazon. So this whole movement between, you know, brands from different countries, like you don't have to be a western brand, you totally can be a Korean brand and you're taking off on TikTok. People show a lot of interest, interest and because it is like fresh and New, they're either buying it directly from TikTok, TikTok shop or we definitely see this pattern where things take off on TikTok and then people will go ahead and buy it on Amazon. One of the other companies that I work with, front row group, we run the Amazon business for lots of amazing beauty brands and we definitely have seen this pathway of again, something spikes on TikTok and there's like a direct correlation to someone buying it on Amazon. So because of this whole first wave of K Beauty where traditional retailers were kind of like we're not sure that this is going to be a thing because a lot of these brands that we took on in this first wave did not succeed because there was this huge spike on TikTok and Amazon. Now it's actually made traditional retailers go, oh okay, K Beauty is back in a huge way. So this year we're starting to see and we're going to see even more in the back half of the year. Lots and lots of Korean brands launching in traditional retail. It's so exciting to see because again I am personally such a huge fan of so many of these brands and the ones that are going to make here and really succeed and build long term success are the ones that understand again, you can't just plop yourselves on the shelves of like traditional retail without storytelling at all. You really do need to have this holistic view of like telling consumers on social media, pop ups, media, everything like this is who we are, this is how we're different and this is why you should want to engage with our products. And I think again the brands who I know who are coming here are doing a phenomenal job at that. Them.
- [19:34]
Effy
Yeah, that's really true what you're saying because even I'm noticing people are more receptive right now to K Beauty too. Like on TikTok a lot of content creators are like, hey, do you guys know, like they try to educate their audience. Like K Beauty is the, you know, it's the epitome of amazing skin care and I think getting really excited about it as well. I've seen that like just, you know, going through TikTok and scrolling a lot of just American based content creators. And it makes me wonder because there's this bad habit that I think I've seen the beauty industry fall into where everyone just buys, you know, it's like white label, right? It's like you just buy something and then you put a new logo on it, you know, and then you call it yours. And I feel like I'm just curious, do you think that's going to happen with K Beauty Innovations and what they're creating over there where brands, instead of bringing the whole brand over, they start saying, well we'll take from this and we'll, you know, we'll connect with them but we're going to rebrand it in a US way.
- [20:26]
Michelle Lee
One 150%. That's already happening.
- [20:29]
Effy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:31]
Michelle Lee
I think we start see there's viral products, right? And so there will be western brands who either kind of pick up on that product or even just again sort of Amazon exclusive. Like just brands that happen to pop up that are dupes of that thing. That absolutely is already happening. I think you can see some short term success with that type of thing. Again, like if there's a, an ingredient or a product that's taking off, maybe you'll see like a fast spike of it. It's not the way to build a brand though. And so I do think, I mean there's so much competition across all of Korean brands. Like manufacturing there is, is, is wild, wild. And so you do see a lot of brands that are not quote unquote brands. Like they are just sort of everything's white labeled, all the ingredients are the same, just the packaging is different. And so I think where traditional retailers are smart is that they know what to look for and what, you know, what feels like white label versus what feels very proprietary. And so I do know again I have kind of like the inside track on some of the brands that are coming. Like they have something special where I mentioned Mixon, Mixon grows their own ingredients. So in their Centella they grow their Centella their own plot of land that has never been touched by pesticides. Right. So when you have these kind of proprietary things that like they don't own the ingredient. Centella. Right. Like others obviously can use Centella, but because they have this plot of land that has never been touched by pesticides, you understand that then that ingredient is special. Right. And so similarly there's other brands like Neogen, that Neogen is a manufacturer so they're able to own their own formulas that then people can't necessarily steal their formulas and then white label it it. So I do feel like there are ways that brands over there are protecting themselves because they understand that the whole white labeling thing and, and Dupes industry is really thriving right now.
- [22:17]
Effy
Right. That's really fascinating though because I think that I, I see a lot of like celebrities getting in on this too, like where they're gonna just be like Well, I need a brand, so let me just go. I mean, in one way it's good because it brings good products right to people, but in other ways, kind of like, come on. But yeah, no, it's very, very interesting though. For me as a consumer, I look at that and I'm very fascinated by Asian beauty in general. I think I always have been. It's just like now I love seeing how on a mass scale, we're getting behind it, you know, as a whole, you know, beauty community in the US Totally.
- [22:48]
Michelle Lee
I think the other interesting thing is that, yes, we always focus on, like, Asian skin care, which is absolutely, you know, incredible. But I do feel like this year we're starting to see more Asian color cosmetics. We're seeing hair fragrance I think will come at some point soon. And then I do feel like body care is something that's like an easy, you know, if we think about Korean and Japanese skincare for your face, it makes sense then that they'd be great at doing body care too. So it's exciting to me to be able to kind of like launch into some of these other categories and to show how. How those products are quite different.
- [23:22]
Effy
Absolutely. And I love that you brought up body care, because I. I have to ask you, like, what is one thing, if you could advise about in terms of how we've done facial skincare? Right, that one thing that brands maybe should avoid when it comes to the body category, because I feel like it's going to be. Be another round, you know what I mean, of like the skin care that we saw for facial skin. So what, what's your opinion on that? Like, any advice you have?
- [23:44]
Michelle Lee
Yeah, it's really interesting because I feel like a lot of people this year have been talking about how body care is so hot, and that's largely, in my opinion, driven by Sol de Janeiro. Right. So Sol de Janeiro has done an incredible job. To me, that brand, though, they straddle this interesting space between body and fragrance where I think that it's less about. And listen, their. Their body products are incredible. And, you know, the boom cream is great, but it's also about the smell of it too. So it's that thought of body care is a bit of, like, lifestyle that, you know, you have the whole experience of. You like the sense of it, you like the feel of it, what people. And maybe I'm just more speaking from myself too. I will spend, I don't know, 30 minutes, especially on a weekend, if I have more time on my face. Right. I'll do a Red light mask. I'll do like an acid or something. I'll do like a whole routine of things. But when it comes to body care, I'm lazy. Like, I don't know what it is, but even putting on lotion after a shower, I'm like, I'm just lazy about it. And this is completely anecdotal, but I feel like other people who I talk to, they kind of mimic the same thing. That ultimately, body care, there's only so much that people are going to do. So I see a lot of brands who are introducing routines and things that are frankly, too complicated. Like, I just don't see people spending that much time on their body skin. So I would say the focus really needs to be on the experience of it. Like, how enjoyable can you make it, whether it's through scent or other things? Just because I do feel like the, the philosophy and the mentality around how we treat body is. Is very different from our face.
- [25:23]
Effy
Effy. Absolutely. No, I love that you said that because I remember when people started doing the, like, the dry brushing or whatever it was, and I was like, oh, no, I have no time for this. I do not have time. And I'm lucky to like, you know, get my daily shower. And so I completely know what you mean. It's like, like, it. I'm just scared of that too. Right. Of like the seven step body care routine. Like, I'm just, I'm waiting for it, like covering my eyes.
- [25:44]
Michelle Lee
Yeah, definitely. And I know there have been brands before who've like, come out with like different masks and things for body, and I'm just, I. I'm not gonna do that. It's a lot. Going to do it.
- [25:54]
Effy
It's a lot, It's a lot. And I just, I don't know, I think that it's interesting because, I mean, obviously we all know most of our skin is not on our face and we need to take care of it. But, like, it's really comes back to what you were saying. Like, everything doesn't have to be this hardcore innovation. Like sometimes you just need a great product, you know, and it's just one is good, you know, one great body cream is sometimes good enough.
- [26:15]
Michelle Lee
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the thing too, is that, you know, many people will buy like a body lotion, let's say just at, you know, Target CVS or whatever. They kind of buy like the mass market thing. Yeah, there is. I don't know, there's something about finding just a basic body lotion that's 5% better than the one that I use. You know what I mean? It smells great, whether it's like absorbs really well. And so I do think that in terms of innovation, you're so right that it doesn't need to be this brand new incredible ingredient. It just needs to be something that feels better that I actually really enjoy putting on.
- [26:48]
Trisha Hershberger
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- [28:25]
Effy
This is not a drill.
- [28:26]
Michelle Lee
You can get the new iPhone 16e.
- [28:28]
Effy
With Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when.
- [28:31]
Narrator
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- [28:32]
Effy
Wait, that's the actual fire alarm? We need to go visit your nearest.
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Michelle Lee
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- [28:43]
Effy
Absolutely. Now I have to ask you because this is huge. Like right now I see it everywhere on LinkedIn, especially as longevity. And I'm sure you've seen like a lot of doct are like, we're longevity doctors now, you know, and like they're going into translational medicine and I feel like it's hitting the beauty industry pretty hard. Too in ways. What's your take on that? Like this whole movement towards longevity with all the NAD plus you know, products out there now and like, you know what I mean, like all the supplements and stuff.
- [29:08]
Michelle Lee
Yeah. You know, it's really interesting because during the time that I was at Allure, we were very specific about not covering supplements because as we know, it's really hard because a lot of that world is not regulated and there's a lot of claims that are made. And so we felt like unless we really, really did a deep dive into the science, we really tested things, we didn't have the resources to really be doing that at the time. And again, really going deep into all the ingredients and so at some point we were kind of like we're just not going to cover it. It's really hard to ignore now though that because it has become, become such a huge market. I personally do believe in like certain supplements and I believe in, you know, what we eat and what we put on our bodies, how we treat our stress and other things really affecting longevity. I do think we're in a interesting time though, I guess where it's become such an industry that I would just urge people to really do their research that I think we're in a time where, I guess similar to skincare ingredients too, where, because everything is this brand new innovation and you know, unfortunately I do think that there's probably quite a large number of supplements on the market where you're making yourself have expensive urine. Right. Where it's sort of like, is it really doing anything? Are we just sort of, is it all just a wish and a prayer? So it's hard because on some level I do believe we should take care of ourselves, we should do all those things. I do believe that some supplements actually do work. But I do believe that there's a large part of the industry that is, is kind of snake oil too.
- [30:44]
Effy
Yeah.
- [30:44]
Michelle Lee
And so it's hard, I think we all need to kind of find experts and other trusted people who really are going to do the research and tell us what's right and what's wrong. Because a lot of it right now is kind of being shielded by a lot of like marketing speak.
- [30:58]
Effy
Absolutely. No, I love that you said that. And I, I keep thinking about, you know, how everyone's got like the big red light therapy, like you know how tanning beds used to be back in the day, now they've got the red light beds. And I look at that and I'm like, like I don't know how this is going to translate, guys, you know, like 10 years from now, 15 years from now. I would hate to see something like, you know, like, detrimental come out of this like a cancer.
- [31:19]
Michelle Lee
Well, I, I think that's the thing is that in general, I feel like if there's something that we feel like is not going to do harm.
- [31:26]
Effy
Yeah.
- [31:27]
Michelle Lee
If, let's say we find out, oh, you were kind of wasting your time or whatever, that's more okay with me, I guess.
- [31:32]
Effy
Right.
- [31:33]
Michelle Lee
But I do think that if it's anything, if it's anything ingestible, it does worry me a bit more that, like, is there a point in time when something will be considered, oh, this is bad for you. Again, not to say people should not do those things, but I would just make sure you're really doing your research.
- [31:48]
Effy
Absolutely. No, I agree with you. And I, I want to ask you, you know, as kind of like a take home question about what are you the most excited about right now? Like when you look at the. Is it like a brand or anything specific that's really exciting you about the industry and the way it's headed and how things are shaping out?
- [32:04]
Michelle Lee
Oh, gosh. I feel like everything honestly excites me about the beauty industry. I do feel like, like I said, I feel like we're in a time of, of reset where we're. I'm excited to see some of the new brands that are going to be coming out. I'm actually weirdly very obsessed with makeup right now. Personal level. I think for such a long time I was such a just skincare person that then when I see makeup, if someone sends me things, I'm like very excited to get into it because you know what it is. Maybe for me personally too, like, I, I've heard this across a couple others as well. Like, I was work remotely, so most days I'm like pretty minimal with my makeup. This was sort of like a pandemic thing also where everyone leaned very much into skin care and just like self care and really went quite minimal with the makeup. I know the whole Clean Girl aesthetic has been quite big, but I, I always am a big believer as with fashion, things swing around always. Right. We're on a pendulum that it's like you have the Clean Girl aesthetic and then you're going to go to a more heavy is probably the wrong word, but like a more creative makeup look. So I'm actually quite interested in, to see, you know, new things within color cosmetics. I'm very into lip products. Like, I feel like the whole tinted lip Gloss thing has obviously been so huge, but I actually feel like we're in an exciting time where we're going to start to see some great, like, matte lip colors again that are not drying. And just very much looking forward to seeing, like, new makeup things. That's awesome.
- [33:27]
Effy
Yeah, I love that. I know that tier. Tier kind of blew up the makeup world recently, you know, with their. That foundation that came out. And I've. I've been noticing, like, more just Asian brands are coming over. Like you said, it's really exciting actually on the makeup front to see. See that.
- [33:40]
Michelle Lee
But definitely, definitely. And, you know, I, I keep saying to people, I don't know what it is, but I, I feel like we're due for something that kind of takes the industry by surprise. So I'll give you the example. So in Asia, obviously, people had been using pimple patches for a really long time. It's such an easy thing. But when that came over, it was a category that didn't exist here. And so now we see a lot of brands, obviously, who have pimple patches. And so I'm, I'm actually excited for what else is to come. One of the brands that I work with is this great brand called All Better Company. And so they have, basically, they're trying to. To reinvent the first aid aisle. So they've taken those hydrocolloid patches and they have made them for bug bites. So, you know anyone who's a mom out there, like, if you have a little kid who gets a really, really itchy bug bite, it's the worst thing because they can't stop scratching it. So they have these, like, larger hydrocolloid patches that are like, have an anti itch cream inside. So you put on the patch and it's like, to me, that's like a new category of where I'm like, oh, my gosh. So genius. I used it on my 5 year old and I was like. And she was like, mommy, it works. I'm not itchy anymore. And the patch, it's like, she's not scratching it. So, like, things like that I'm very excited about. When I haven't seen a new format before.
- [34:56]
Effy
Right. That's really cool. I'm glad you brought that up. Like, hydrocolloid is really safe too. That's a really interesting category that could expand a lot.
- [35:03]
Michelle Lee
Totally, totally. And I will say, too, I, I talk about this all the time. That, like, highlighter for the long didn't exist, and so now it's like just completely part of the category. So I'm hopeful that there will be new categories that end up being introduced very soon.
- [35:20]
Effy
That's so exciting. Yeah, I mean, I, I can't wait to see it. I mean, I think the beauty industry is so. It's so fascinating to me as a scientist because we talked about how not everybody needs to be innovative, but at the same time, like in its own way pushes so many boundaries, you know, in terms of like fast we can move and like just grow, you know, and, and learn. And so I love that, I love that about this industry.
- [35:41]
Michelle Lee
And you know what else is really exciting me right now is treatments and services. Like, I do feel like there's been so much more of a merger between that area of science and how people kind of, you know, think about their routines. So whether it is lasers, injectables, you know, different treatments, I feel like the technology portion of it has been really interesting where now we're starting to see that some of the at home devices also are starting to incorporate some of those things, whether it's like at home, laser rf, micro needling and other things. And so I do feel like within that space of things, whether it's going, you know, in office or doing things at home, that element of how technology is going to play into our everyday routines is going to be really interesting.
- [36:25]
Effy
Oh, absolutely. I remember like when micro needling, you know, those roller devices, like that was the only thing and now it's like there's so many different options, like non, like micro needling. What are the. I think I saw this on your feed you had posted about, about like the spicules.
- [36:38]
Michelle Lee
Oh yes, liquid.
- [36:39]
Effy
Oh my God, I love spicules. Like I was, I remember discovering them like two years ago and I saw it on your feet. I was like, yes, I'm so glad she's talking about this. But yeah, it's really exciting to see how people are adapting all of this, right? It's like there's so much. And especially like, you're right, you know, with the aesthetic treatments, it always kind of blows my mind because when it comes to lasers, like we didn't know anything. I feel like as consumers, like five years ago, 10 years ago now, nobody knew anything. And now everybody's like, oh yeah, I'm getting this, you know, procedure and then I'm going to get this. And everyone's talking about it like it is skin care, like it is makeup, you know.
- [37:13]
Michelle Lee
Totally. So when I was in Korea, I got three lasers. Like they, they're very big proponents of like laser stacking. And I Looked a little crazy for, like, the first week. And so now I'm. I'm one week in. And so my biggest skincare issue has always been hyperpigmentation. A lot of, like, sunspots and other things. This has been the greatest. Like, now that I'm a weekend and all of my, like, little, like, micro scabs and things have fallen off, my skin looks incredible. Like, it was a great reminder to me of remembering to do laser every once in a while, because truly, not all of. But, like, most of my spots have now, like, kind of fallen off. My skin is so just clear and, like, gorgeous. I, again, I've become, like, a big laser proponent again.
- [37:57]
Effy
Wait, what did you get done? If you don't mind me asking? I'm curious.
- [37:59]
Michelle Lee
Oh. Oh, my gosh. I had so many things. I was there for three hours. Yeah. Not always getting the treatments, but I had a pico laser. I had another laser that was, like, the second one that was just a string of, like, numbers and letters that honestly had never heard of before, but I was like, okay. And then I had xlv. So they did all three lasers one after the other. I had Juva look, which is one of the skin boosters, and then I did Rejuran, which is the salmon sperm injections, which hurt. Like, how.
- [38:29]
Effy
Oh, wow. Wow. So, like, every. Everything was, like, back to back then. Like, you got one and then another one.
- [38:34]
Michelle Lee
Yep, everything was all back to back. And so throughout everything, they did a lot of, like, pre treatment. So I got, like, you know, a little facial in the beginning. After the treatment, they gave me some cryo because my face was definitely on fire. And, yeah, I, for the first week, looked really crazy. After the first day. I had, you know, my skin was super, super red. Had lots of, like, you know, injection marks and everything everywhere. And by the end of the first day, day, I was so swollen that my daughter and I were joking that I looked like that picture of, like, the wind blowing. Like, my cheeks were just, like, totally puffed up. And it took. It took a good week for my face to go down. I was, like, constantly icing it. But like I said, this morning was kind of the first morning where I woke up and I was like, oh, my gosh, my skin looks incredible.
- [39:21]
Effy
Wow. So what is your. What is your take on, like, post procedure stuff? Like, do you like those brands? Like, the post procedure brands? Like, are you into that category of skin care or just. I mean, what does that feel like for you?
- [39:31]
Michelle Lee
So, honestly, I have not been, only because. And it's not to say I'm not a believer or anything. I think I just don't know enough about it. I thought with that is typically after I have a procedure, I keep things incredibly simple. Right. And so it's not that I necessarily would go out and like buy something special. It's more that I'm keeping it like so, so basic and simple. So I, I do probably philosophically believe in using something different. Like if you, you definitely should be steering clear of like active and actives and other things. I was on the trip that I was just on in Korea with other beauty editors and some influencers. And so similarly, one of the other beauty editors had gotten a bunch of treatments and was like, even with her sunscreen, she was like, does anyone have a sunscreen right now that I can borrow that has no actives in it? So I think, you know, in general, again, I, I agree we should be keeping things quite simple after procedures.
- [40:23]
Effy
Isn't that crazy though, that we have all this together all the time? Like, it's like you can't just get a freaking sunscreen. I mean that's, that's wild to me that we have. Everybody's about the seven, you know, like the seven things in one cream now. I feel like that's what the new thing is. But that's, that's interesting. Yeah.
- [40:42]
Michelle Lee
I do feel like though, what's been interesting to see is I, I do feel like among the younger consumers. Consumers there is a little bit of this return to what's simple. Right. They're seeing like this love for cerave, this love for Cetaphil among like younger consumers. And maybe that does mean that people don't necessarily want like the kitchen sink and everything anymore.
- [41:03]
Effy
Right? Right. What do you love about Gen Z? I'm so curious, like about their take on beauty.
- [41:07]
Michelle Lee
So for reference, I have three kids. Two of them are Gen Z and one is Gen Alpha. So my, my oldest son Ethan is 20. My daughter, my middle daughter is 17. And then we have a five year old. Right. So what's been so interesting to look at has been how the two older ones really engage with personal care and the beauty industry. So my son was the one who really shocked me. And so, you know, everyone in the past couple years has talked about fragrance talk and about how Gen Z men in general have really taken to fragrance.
- [41:43]
Effy
Yeah.
- [41:43]
Michelle Lee
Boy, I never would have imagined would be in so into fragrance. He's become truly like a fragrance aficionado. He knows so much more about brands and other things than I do. Like he'll bring up brands. I'm like, I've never actually heard of that brand before. And he, he just knows so much. So I feel like what's exciting to me is it's built an interesting community across their generation of where they all talk about things like he trades fragrances with some of his friends about it all the time.
- [42:12]
Effy
It's like Pokemon cards.
- [42:13]
Michelle Lee
Yeah, it's totally that. And then My daughter, my 17 year old, she was not super into beauty until probably like the past two years I would say. But again, she and her friends talk all the time about brands. They know so many things. They know so much more about, I did at that age about how to apply makeup, how to do skincare. And so I do feel like they're better informed in many ways. Like because she's my daughter also, obviously she knows a lot about like, you know, what I think are good and bad products and brands and other things. But I do just feel like from her talking to her friends, learning from social media, like they know so much more nowadays and they're pretty savvy about what they should buy and not buy. No, she definitely has, has fallen into the trap of some of like the viral products before, but like they have a pretty good radar of oh, I don't like this or, or I love it. So I'm, I'm happy to see that with Gen Z. They seem like they're pretty discerning. They seem like they're pretty in some ways race conscious too. Like they definitely have strong opinions about what they like and don't like. I'm, I'm very curious to see how Gen Alpha, you know, I know there's, there's been a lot of talk about like Sephora kids and stuff like that. Like, you know, my five year old, she, you always, as a little kid, you always aspire to be older, right? So she watches me doing my makeup. She watches my 17 year old doing makeup. So she of course is like obsessed with makeup. But I do feel like it's on the parents to also be like, okay, you don't, honey, you don't need this like vitamin C serum, right?
- [43:45]
Effy
Yeah.
- [43:45]
Michelle Lee
So I do feel like the whole Gen Alpha Sephora kids thing has maybe been a little bit.
- [43:51]
Effy
I was just, I was gonna ask you that. I'm like, you know, I feel like we are concerned, you know what I mean? But like a lot of it is kind of like why aren't you stopping your children from buying like ahas and why isn't anyone shopping with them? You Know what I mean? Like, go with them.
- [44:06]
Michelle Lee
Exactly. Like kids can want what they want, but you can also say no.
- [44:10]
Effy
Yeah, exactly. Don't give them your credit card like and just go buy whatever you want. I mean, if I was a kid, I had a thousand dollar limit, right? And my mom said go buy whatever, I would pick up anything that was pretty. I mean, at the end of the day, it's not like that's, that's how children are. But yeah, I agree. I think that there needs to be a lot of, a lot more on the parents too with that. This has been so great though. Michelle, you are such like a fountain of wisdom. Like I, I'm so excited that I had a chance to talk to you. Like I said, I've been your fan for the longest time. I love everything you. No, I really mean that. You've accomplished so much already in your career and you've just made such huge strides for everybody. You know, when we look at the beauty world, especially the industry side of it, like your, your work just speaks for itself. So, you know, really hats off to you for being a leader, you know, here and kind of having a different view of point rather than the same one over and over again. I feel like we see a lot of the same thing over and over again. So thank you so much.
- [44:59]
Michelle Lee
Thank you so much. It's, honestly, it's an industry that I love so much and I could talk about forever. So I, I appreciate you and, and I have loved our conversation.
- [45:11]
Mark Marin
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- [46:50]
Effy
Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode. Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform. We are available on so many different platforms, so wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe. You will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes. This way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors, all the wonderful people that we host. And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of. Also make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets. We're available on Instagram, TikTok X, you name it, we're there. We also have a blog on Medium, so if you're a reader and you love Medium or blogs, check us out on Medium. We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more. We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear.
- [47:50]
Trisha Hershberger
About in other outlets.
- [47:52]
Effy
So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
- [47:57]
Trisha Hershberger
Thank you.