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Skin Anarchy
How Lash Care Became Its Own Category With Dr. Michael Brinkenhoff of RevitaLash Cosmetics
00:42:36
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is going to be a very special episode because I have the opportunity to talk to the founder of a brand that I have been following for quite a while now. And it's very exciting to kind of walk down this journey and introduce you guys. So please welcome Dr. Michael Brinkenhoff, who is the founder and CEO of Revitalash Cosmetics. Welcome, Dr. Brinkenhoff.
- [00:22]
B
Nice to be here. Acta.
- [00:24]
A
Yeah, no, it's lovely to host you and to have this opportunity to chat with you. I know that the story of Revitalash is very interesting, you know, and I would love to start from understanding more about your background and what really, you know, compelled you to start a, you know, a company in the beauty industry. If you can kind of walk us down memory lane.
- [00:44]
B
Well, the story of revitalash starts with. I was very happily married to my wife Gail. I was also an ophthalmologist, practicing for practically 20 years. And Gail developed metastatic breast cancer. And she went through a number of treatments. She was not a complainer. She took everything in stride and was. She looked upon cancer as something that. It was an inconvenience, but she was not going to make her life about that. But she had to go through a very intense set of chemotherapies. And a light bulb went on for me. I recognized that through my experience with ophthalmology, that and biochemistry, that I might be able to create a concoction that could help bring back her beautiful eyelashes. We talked about it. I created a formula for her. And lo and behold, her. Her friends noticed her eyelashes were. Were beautiful again. And she. And they said, well, you know, can we. Can we take a. Can we buy some of that? Actually, Gail liked to tease me. She said, and. And her girlfriend's husband's noticed also. And I said, well, that's great, you know, So I.
- [02:19]
A
The.
- [02:19]
B
My entrepreneurial light bulb went on. And I thought, well, maybe I can create a product that would be not just for Gail, but that would be something that could be a wider market. And that set me off on a lot of detailed research. Number one was that I have something that is safe. And as a physician, I know that first principles are do no harm. I made sure that all of the ingredients that we put together were going to be safe and that we finally, 20 years ago, we sold our first product. We went to a trade show, and my lovely wife is the one who came up with a name for the product, which she called revitalash. And we went through all these different names at first. And I still remember the day she said, I've got it. Revital Ash. And when I heard that that was perfect, it said it all, basically. And we went to our first trade show in November of 2006. So we are celebrating our 20th anniversary.
- [03:41]
A
Amazing.
- [03:42]
B
And lo and behold, I basically just handed out samples. I said, try it. You'll like it. There wasn't a lot of explanation. There were a lot of questions. But this was an entirely new category of product. And it was within about six weeks, I started getting inundated with emails saying, this is amazing. And I learned that most women had come to be used to the idea that the cosmetic products they bought were not going to really perform up to their expectations. You know, it was hopeful, but most of the time it was a lot of hype.
- [04:36]
A
Yeah.
- [04:38]
B
And when it came to our product, we didn't give it much hype at all. But it greatly exceeded expectations. And people were amazed that this type of product could actually come out and exist. And it was almost too much. We were inundated with people wanting to buy more, et cetera. And where do we get this? It was a wonderful problem to have, but we had to scramble and figure out how do we get more tubes, how do we get more of the components, how do we fulfill the demand that we have suddenly created? And I pulled together a very good team of people, and we got over that hump. And 20 years later, I'm so proud of the team that we've got together. Some of the people we've had for 20 years.
- [05:35]
A
Wow.
- [05:36]
B
And we've been through thick and thin. There's a. There's always challenges when you have an innovative company that people, you know, are not sure what is this? And they. They question it. There's always some element of. Of jealousy or. And then their competitors, and there's all the wannabes who want to jump in and get ahead of you. What was. What has been very useful with our business over the years is that as a physician, I. I can speak clearly and directly to the safety of our product.
- [06:22]
A
Yeah.
- [06:24]
B
The care that I have taken to ensure that our product and any other products that we have made since then are thorough safety tested. We. We go the extra mile. You know, even though there are very. There are many places in business where you say, oh, we could cut corners here and there and have higher profits, but that's not the way we do business. We. We want, number one, to have the safest possible product out there and stand behind the product. Therefore, as a business, I believe We've built a very good brand loyalty that people who know about revitalash can trust the brand, even though we may have competitors who make all kinds of claims. But that's kind of, that's a long winded.
- [07:29]
A
No, I mean, it's wonderful. I was just, I mean, I really, really love that you went into the founding story because for me, I'll tell you as a consumer, and long before I had even reached out to your team, you know, to interview, I've known about revitalash. I think of revitalash when I think of lash products and it's not because, you know, it's not just like, obviously the science is the forefront, but then also that the company built a name that could be trusted. And I can literally vouch for that, you know, as a consumer. It's a trustful, you know, opinion that I have off the, off the rip. So I mean, with that in mind, I do want to touch on something that you had brought up, you know, when you were, you were talking about your wife and this is this emotional aspect of beauty and I think we don't get to talk about that when it intersects with the healing aspect of medicine, you know, and I'd love your thoughts on this in terms of what did all of this, this whole experience you about the emotional side of healing and, you know, medicine and how that comes together with what consumers want in the beauty space. You know, I know a lot of people are looking for instant results these days, but you had made a great point where Gail, you know, she really was more worried about her eyelashes, you know, and I think that's something to really, you know, hone in on and talk about.
- [08:51]
B
In medical school we learn a great deal about the body and how the body works and mechanisms of action, et cetera. I think it may be changing a little bit now in medical schools, but discussion about the mind, body connection and how you feel about yourself, how you picture yourself, and that includes how you see yourself in the mirror, has a great deal to do with health. And in particular, and this is what Gail taught me, the way you feel about yourself, especially if you've gone through a difficult set of treatments like chemotherapy for cancer and you're, you're beaten up pretty badly.
- [09:46]
A
Yeah.
- [09:47]
B
And there comes a point where you're ready to reemerge and, and be alive again and not just be struggling to overcome life threatening disease, but you want to go, go out and be a part of life again and have a quality of life. Part of that healing process is how you see Yourself. It's a very intimate connection of how you see yourself and how you heal. That is. Is very important. And I came to recognize, you know, at first. You know, the truth is, at first, when, you know, I was an ophthalmologist, I saw patients who were blind from cataracts, and I would do cataract surgery, and I would restore their vision, and I've been trained to do that. And that felt good, and it felt important. I kind of. When I thought about eyelashes, it was sort of like, oh, gosh, you know. You know, it's not such a big deal.
- [10:53]
A
Yeah.
- [10:53]
B
Gail taught me differently that. And I have met so many women since then, especially going through breast cancer, who. Who want to feel so good about coming back to life, that this is life changing. How it's not just eyelashes, but how you feel about yourself. I came up with. I don't. We've never patented it or trademarked it, but I love the expression that beauty begins with eyelashes. Yeah, I like that. It goes all the way back, I think, to, you know, Cleopatra and beyond, you know, So I have come to understand how important how you look and how you feel are connected and how you heal after diseases. And I don't know if that answers your question.
- [11:47]
A
It does. No, it doesn't. And I. And I love how you. You explain that, because I couldn't agree more. You know, I think there's a lot. And I've brought this up a couple times on the show, where there's a lot we can learn from, like what we've seen through time. Right. With ancient civilizations, the way that people have portrayed themselves, what they focused on. And you're right. I mean, I'm from India. And so when you think about the beauty rituals in India, it's very centered around line, like eyeliner, you know, kajal. And the reason for that is to make your eyelashes stand out. That's the whole purpose. And it really makes you wonder about what do we perceive as human beings as being the true markers of beauty? You know, And I think now, as we've evolved, as social media has come into the picture, so many things have happened. We've kind of skewed that, you know, the fundamentals of what is truly considered to be beautiful. You know, I know a lot of people speak about things like the golden ratio, or they'll talk about symmetry or they'll, you know, and that's wonderful. It's a wonderful conversation in aesthetic medicine, but the fundamentals are still the fundamentals. So I definitely agree. I think lashes have Been at the core of what we perceive when we look at somebody and they have beautiful full lashes. I mean, look at the entire industry on, you know, fake lashes. It's a booming industry, and it continues to boom because we just don't want to let that go. So I think that's very valid, what you said, you know, and.
- [13:15]
B
Well, you make a very valid point. And the point I also wanted to emphasize is that there's that mind, body connection that is really very important in everything that we do, whether it's in cosmetics or just in life. How you feel about yourself and how you live in the world is quite important, and it affects your attitude, and that leads to all kinds of other things. So, you know, having a gratitude attitude is a good way to live.
- [13:47]
A
That's right. No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you know. But, you know, what's really fascinating to me is that you created. I mean, you really essentially created an entire category in the beauty space. You didn't just create a brand. And I find it to be a very different conversation. I've had only a few of these, you know, where I've talked to people who have literally created a new category in a space that is so saturated, that is so overwhelmingly, you know, just always coming out with something new, throwing something in our face every day, you know, I see a brand pop up every day. So from that angle, I would love to get your stance on where you think. I mean, when you first started. Right. Because you briefly touched on this before where you said, I didn't realize, you know, I was just making this for Gail. And, you know, was that your mindset even when the brand started taking shape, that you're just making a product that you really believe in from the science side, or did you think more on that business level at that point? Like, how can I grow this into a movement, a category, a space?
- [14:50]
B
It was initially just for my wife, whom I loved, whom I thought I could do something to help her feel better, and I wanted to be helpful. And I think most husbands who have wives who are going through breast cancer or anything else may oftentimes feel helpless. So I just wanted to do what I could to help. It was, though, very quickly thereafter that I recognized, well, this is an opportunity, especially when her friends were so eager and. And Gail herself said, gee, you know, let's do something. So it was very quickly thereafter that the idea was there to make this something bigger. But I. I knew that there it was somewhat unique. I didn't know that there. I did the Research I did was that there wasn't anything else significant out there that was anything like what we were doing. But it took about a couple of years of step by step research, not only legally, but chemically, biochemically, ingredient wise, figuring out how to create this into a business that could have a product that would sell and all the process that goes from that transition from something very simple, which is an idea, into something that is much bigger. I chose to, I chose to go step by step, frankly. I did have an inkling that this could be very big, but I wasn't going to jump far ahead. I didn't want to cut any corners. I wanted to be very careful step by step because I did have that sense that this could be something bigger. So I was very careful with legal, etc. Got good opinions from top lawyers and I, I cut no corners. Yeah. And long run, that, that was a saving grace. I, I did not. You know, sometimes when you've got a great idea, there is the impulse to, to jump three steps ahead.
- [17:30]
A
Yeah.
- [17:31]
B
And then you trip because you figured out you, you missed up on steps two and three.
- [17:37]
A
That's right.
- [17:38]
B
So I, I, it was nice, slow going. And I recognized somewhere along the way, probably within the first year, year and a half, but absolutely, as soon as, as soon as the first product was sold and we got the inundation of orders, that we had done something remarkable in the cosmetics industry by creating an entirely new category of product. And it's only in retrospect that I see that that was very significant and people have acknowledged it. And now we have lots of copycats, look alikes, and that's okay. Imitation is flattery, as they say.
- [18:34]
A
Yeah. I mean, you have quite a few people who have followed in your footsteps,
- [18:37]
B
you know, and that's okay. I. What. One of the things we can, we can even talk about is that I. What this has done for me individually is the company has always had a philosophy of philanthropy, of giving back to the origins, the origin story having to do with Gail and her work, the work that she had to do to survive her breast cancer and to have therapy. But I've been focused on wanting to use that philanthropic money that we give as a yearly contribution to breast cancer research initiatives and also to help those women who are going through breast cancer who have now recovered and are in the process of going to facilities where it's not medical anymore. It's, it's more spiritual. It's more, you know, having fashion shows and coming out into the world. We are very supportive of Those kinds of initiatives. And Gail was very supportive of that even as she was going through her own treatment. But I feel so fortunate because the company and the profitability of the company has given me the opportunity to put money into cancer research where we actually have a company that we have focused on and invested in and given, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of contribution to help them develop a drug, which I believe is going within the next few years to revolutionize the way cancer is treated. And I mentioned this to you earlier, that I chose to use our philanthropic donations to go to, not necessarily to an organization that. Where I don't know where the money is really used. But you say a cancer treating organization, but it could go to overhead, it could go to all kinds of things that I don't know about because I'm curious and I really love science and molecular biology, etc. I like digging into the weeds and talking to the companies and talking to the researchers and the scientists and knowing that our funding is going to move the needle when it comes to real cancer research and it's going to actually get from the laboratory to the bedside of the patient where it's going to make a real difference. And I am so lucky and fortunate to get a second bite at the apple, so to speak. With revitalash, we created an entirely new category of cosmetic product. But with this new company that I'm very involved with, they have created an entirely new category of cancer drug, one which is not toxic and which treats practically every form of cancer. So I am, I'm doubly blessed.
- [22:07]
A
Wow, that's incredibly exciting. And I, you know, it's very unique to see that. Glad you brought up the philanthropic side of this because there are a lot of initiatives that I see in the beauty industry where I do wonder, is it a marketing play? Is it? What is it? Because sometimes you don't, I mean, that's the truth, the hard truth of it, that you don't see the results that you're hoping for and you don't see the needle move. Right. And there are a lot of claims being made about, well, we did this and we were trying to, you know, promote this kind of research or, or whatever it is, right? And as a scientist myself, I sit there and I wonder, I'm like, why don't we collectively pour into research? And I think I asked this question, I think in one of my first ever podcast episodes that I did on the show where I was like, why isn't there a fund, right? Like the NIH has like, this huge fund that they give money out from what, the trillions and billions of dollars. Right. That we're generating in the beauty. Why aren't we putting more of that towards real science that extends beyond cosmetics? You know, that goes far beyond. And so I really enjoy hearing what you've been doing and what you've been pouring your efforts into, because I think that's incredibly unique. And it's something that can be. I mean, you can learn from that. I hope somebody can learn from that, you know, because that's. I don't know. I feel like it should always come back to science. That's my personal opinion.
- [23:33]
B
Well, we're kindred spirits there. I will tell you. The Spirit of Life program is something that comes together every year, raises oftentimes over millions of dollars of funding that goes actually to City of Hope Medical center directly for cancer research, et cetera. And so there are things going on in the cosmetics industry where we try to do good as well as good financially.
- [24:12]
A
Yes. Well, that's really good to hear. I haven't heard about that program. I'm gonna have to read into it.
- [24:18]
B
That's very called the Spirit of Life, and it's related to City of Hope, and that's amazing.
- [24:24]
A
I mean, I think it's a. It's a wonderful time as well, you know, because. And I'd love to get your opinion on this because. And I'm sure you've seen it because you came out with a product, I think. Well, not think. I know it was way. It was ahead of its time, and it still is, I think, in many ways. And I'm very curious when I talk to, you know, entrepreneurs such as yourself, because there comes a lot of responsibility with handling that level of, I think, science and then delivering it in a way that's going to resonate with consumers. It's going to be, you know, uh. It's going to kind of stand the test of time. You know, there's a lot of components, right, that come into play. So I think my question really here is about innovation. Um, what were some of the hurdles, or not even hurdles, maybe some like, stop signs for you when you were innovating the product, or then you could continue to innovate right, in the brand that really kind of required a lot of more of your attention than maybe you would have thought originally. I mean, were there any moments like that where you had to kind of really push yourself to go beyond.
- [25:30]
B
Well, there were moments. There were definitely challenges early on. I think a large part of it had to do with. There were some very powerful forces that did not want us to succeed, and they did everything in their power to put roadblocks in front of us. And we had great challenges that we had to overcome in order to. And the truth is, they. There's always a matter of luck in life and for entrepreneurs, too. And there were moments where we could have gone under because of various factors and the challenges, et cetera. Some of what we came out of it, in part because I had a wonderful team to work with me to. Frankly, if you want to figure out how to go far, go with a good team. There's that old saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So I was very fortunate to have a very good team early on, and some of my team came about purely because of luck and some of our success. And overcoming the challenges came about in part because of luck, in part because those folks who wanted to take us down overplayed their hand, so to speak. And there are no guarantees. You could have the best product. You can have a great team and be entrepreneurial, and luck can go against you.
- [27:27]
A
Yeah.
- [27:27]
B
So those entrepreneurs who are listening, don't give up. You know, you start over again if need be. Yeah. This is a bit of an aside, but it was just only recently I listened to the. The wonderful commencement address that Steve Jobs gave to Stanford many years ago and about connecting the dots and how failure can sometimes be the best lesson of ultimate success. So I don't know if that answers your question. You've got me talking.
- [28:08]
A
Yeah, I love it, though. No, that's why I'm just. I'm quietly listening. And it's because you have so much wisdom that you're. You're offering here. I mean, I. I just. I think that's such an important message because right now, at least from what I've seen and what I'm noticing is a lot of people are creating brands. And I don't think anyone ever starts a brand from this mindset of, well, I'm just going to be one of like a hundred. Right. Everybody's trying to create their own mark in some way. And with that, that's why I had asked you about that, because, I mean, you literally created an entire category, you know, and I just wonder, like, what goes behind that in the troubleshooting sense? Because there's no roadmap, there's no blueprint, there's no one to copy. There is just you and your innovation and your, you know, idea and vision and Trying to bring that to a place of. Now this is a fully formalized concept that can be, you know, obviously like you can buy the products, but then you can also learn so much from the business side. And so, I mean, I think I'm just curious mostly about, you know, what from the business standpoint to you were the most, I guess challenging, but also more like rewarding. Right. In a challenging way. Like moments where you were like, I, I really, I like this, you know, and it becomes like, I guess your drive at some point to say I'm going to keep going because I have this in front of me and I'm going to overcome this. I'd love for you to speak on that a little bit because of the young entrepreneurs that are listening in, you know.
- [29:32]
B
You know, I'm, I don't think this applies a hundred percent of the time, but I think there a lesson about success. If you're going, if you have a truly innovative product, something that's different and that is like a new category or something that really stands out, there is the impulse to jump, to go very fast. But my thought is that's the time to really go slow, go step by step. Maybe not in every case, but first of all, if it is a truly innovative, unique idea, and I think in the patent business they call it novel, start off before you jump ahead to start selling product. Protect your intellectual property. Yeah. Make sure you, you because there will be those who see it and who will run to imitate and they may be have deeper pockets than you.
- [30:43]
A
Yeah.
- [30:44]
B
They may very well beat you out even though you're the one who came up with the concept. So go slowly so that you protect what you have early on. Don't get too impatient or too eager to monetize it too soon. So sort of a, a methodical go slow and thoughtful approach. And the other is along those lines, get yourself a really good team. This is certainly my case. I was a physician. I did not know that much about business. Admit that you don't know it all, but get people that you trust, learn from them, follow their advice. Don't hand over all of the responsibility to them. Make you learn what they're doing and don't be a know it all because especially in this world, there is a. There's so much to know. But on the other hand, in terms of business, there is a blueprint, there's a standard way to do things. And there, there may even be somewhat of a standard way of doing things when it's very, very innovative. But I would Advise, go slow.
- [32:02]
A
Makes sense. No, that makes a lot of sense.
- [32:03]
B
And don't give up.
- [32:05]
A
Yeah, well, that's the. I think that's also very big because it can be very disheartening, especially these days. I. I feel like people are. I don't know, I see this a lot and I can't really speak about it. I'm not a founder myself. I haven't created a brand. But just from my observations, I've seen that sometimes things will. It will be great, you know, great weeks of great sales, and people are doing great. They're on, you know, top of the world, lots of press around them, and then, you know, all of a sudden the brand falls off, and then you just don't see much about it. And I've seen a lot of brands close down in that space, and it's. It's a little disheartening, you know, when I see it as a consumer, I feel bad because I'm like, I wonder what happened, you know, on that journey where the person gave up and said, I'm just not going to do this anymore, you know, And. And so it just makes. That's why I'm asking you all these questions, because I know there are. There's a lot of uncertainty right now in the beauty space. From what I've noticed in terms of like, you know, obviously multiple factors, but just the sheer will to want to keep going. I see it questioned every day, you know, you know, in a public way, in a private way, when I talk to people, you know. So, yeah, I think it's an important conversation that, that needs to be had around the space. But I want to ask you, you know, and I think this came up earlier in the conversation, was this idea of when your work in a space like beauty and cosmetics starts to impact, you know, the, the wellness of people. Right? Like the overall wellness, whether that's psychologically, whether that's physically, whatever that might be, you know, what are. What is your take on the responsibility that the beauty industry has it from that stance of making sure that we are doing our due diligence when it comes to the whole do no harm bit that we're taught in medicine. But then applying that to this framework,
- [33:53]
B
I can speak only for my cosmetics company. It is safety first. Don't cut corners when it comes to safety, don't cut corners when it comes to legalities. You know, basically, that's. Those are two corners.
- [34:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, I think my. My question is more broad. It was more just like an opinion because I see a Lot of, there's a new, a lot of new biotech, you know, for example, coming out. There's a lot of stuff going on. Regenerative medicine right now. There's a lot of companies coming out with ingredients that I personally think put the cart before the horse. And that's just my personal opinion. But, you know, I, that's why I wonder about this, because I think there needs to be some sort of a checks and balances in place where founders are stopping. Right. And they're saying, well, do I know what I'm doing or do I just want to make a quick buck and follow a trend? You know, that's why.
- [34:49]
B
Well, there's a lot of hype, I notice, in the marketing. And, you know, you've mentioned something about nanoparticles and yes, all of the technology that is available. I think there are just lots of different ways to approach the product. This is where I'm sort of a skeptic when it comes to the beauty industry. I kind of go back. I still remember a conversation with Gail. She had this very expensive cream that she put on her face.
- [35:25]
A
Yeah.
- [35:26]
B
And I, I asked, you know, how much did that cost? And I said, so, wow, why don't you just get a jar of Vaseline? It would do the same thing, it seems to be. And, and she thought, oh, you don't know what you're talking about. But I, I still sort of have sometimes the price tag on some of these products versus what they really do. It sort of amazes me. Everybody has a choice, and, and some people do see certain results, and, and there are some new, innovative things that really do things scientifically out there. And I, I, I'm always fascinated when I come across those. They're collagen products that, that may actually do something as far as affecting wrinkles, et cetera, from the inside, as opposed to covering up. But this is where, you know, there's, there's a, somewhat of a blurred line at times between functionality and cosmetics.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah.
- [36:36]
B
And at the end of the day, it is a vital responsibility for the cosmetics manufacturer as well as the whole cosmetics industry to be sure that they can ensure the safety of their products. That is the bottom line. And if cosmetics companies do not toe the line in terms of safety of their products, there will be regulatory issues that take that away, that make it happen. And I don't think anybody in the cosmetics industry wants that kind of overly strict regulation. But it's very incumbent upon manufacturers of cosmetic products to be sure that their safety profiles are, are, are as Good as can possibly be. That's it. You know, everybody's has. Every human being has certain kinds of conditions that, you know, whatever. No matter how safe a product is, people can have an allergic reaction or this or that. And that's. That's part of any product.
- [37:47]
A
Right, Right. It is that. That's a wonderful response and thank you for. For addressing that. I mean, it was just a. I figured I'd ask you because, you know, you've created something so revolutionary in its space that. That's why I wonder, because I think that's what everybody's kind of chasing, you know, in that way in this new, you know, era that I'm seeing in the cosmoceuticals meets whatever that we're trying to meet. Right. And so I think it is. That's why I said I think feel like sometimes we do put the cart before the horse. But your point about safety makes a lot of sense to me. I think that is something that we need to ingrain in the beauty community and the cosmetic industry is that. That you can't cut corners. That's always going to be there. It's always going to be something you have to think about and you do have to put the dollars there, you know, while you're formulating, even afterwards and. And all of that. So. But I want to just to lighten things up a little bit, I want to actually ask you, you know, 20, 30 years, I mean, you're celebrating your 20th anniversary. You know, that's amazing. 20, 30 years down the road, where do you see revitalash like headed? Anything new on the horizon?
- [38:50]
B
Oh, that is a great question. I would like to see the brand expand into be. I want. I want it still to be alive and well and. But not just be. And we're sort of on the way there. Not just a lash product, but a cosmetic beauty brand. Where, you know, we currently have revita brow, we have a hair product, we have other products. But I could see where, because it is a trusted brand, if we find other highly innovative things that fit the brand and, and what I think are our mo, The DNA of our brand is that we are trusted, that we are innovative, that we come up with things that maybe new categories or new ways of looking at a category. If the brand could be something that is consistent with the idea of innovation and safety and something kind of unique, I would love to have that be going forward. And maybe it's not even in the fully in the cosmetics industry. Maybe it branches into other areas, but it's where Even though the brand name is revitalash, it could be kind of like, well, Kleenex or Xerox or something where it. It's not just related to the original product, but it is related to whole constellation of. Of products that has to do with the company. That's where I. But that'll be something I. I'd loved also. This would be wonderful for. If there's a legacy to be had. It would be great if our contributions to cancer research moved the needle and we could actually come full circle where because my lovely wife had breast cancer and because out of that Revital Ash was born. And out of the success of Revital Ash, we were able to give to innovative research in cancer. And that research led to something that truly moved the needle worldwide for the treatment of cancer and for the reduction of suffering. That would be what I would write the script as.
- [41:48]
A
I love that. That's amazing. And I have full faith that you're going to do that. I mean, that's truly, truly remarkable that you have put. I mean your life's work has gone into such a meaningful cause. I don't have the words to say thank you.
- [42:05]
B
Thank you. Basically it's just going a step at a time also and being present and taking advantage of when you see an opportunity and. And you know, and don't ever leave out the luck component. Been very lucky.
- [42:24]
A
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Brinkenhof. This has been amazing interview.
- [42:28]
B
Thank you. Acta. Pleasure meeting you and talking to you and we will stay in touch.
- [42:33]
A
Yes, I would love that very much.