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Skin Anarchy
The Missing Conversation in Exosome Science with Andrew Ignatow and John Borja of Exocellure
00:41:29
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- [00:00]
A
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Skin Anarchy. This is a very, very special episode because as many of you know, we have talked extensively on this podcast about Exosomes and a lot of the ev science that's now coming into skincare. Also in just aesthetics overall. And I think this is a really interesting and important episode for this series of conversations we've been having on the show because this is the first brand I've come across that has truly made me kind of stop and re look at this space and as it's being applied to aesthetics. So I'm not going to tell you guys too much right now, but I want to really dive into the science in this episode. So without further ado, please welcome John and Andrew from Exocellular. Welcome, guys.
- [00:37]
B
Hello.
- [00:38]
C
Appreciate you having us on.
- [00:39]
A
No, I'm very excited to have you both on and I can't wait to have this nice balanced exchange about where John, you can really tell us the nitty gritty about the science of Exocellular. But Andrew, just to understand from your perspective about what this means for the current landscape of this type of technology, you know, in aesthetics as, you know, it's. It's very much booming right now. So just to get started, Andrew, maybe you can get us started like just to learn about the brand and the company and where all of this began, the vision.
- [01:05]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the biggest distinctions for us is we did not start out as a skincare brand or looking to build, you know, the next big skincare platform. We really started with Exacellular from the scientific side. And I promise I'm not going to say anything that John should be saying while we're on here today, but it really became about how do we bring the value and benefits and promise of Exosomes into the shelf, stable environment. And you know, we made a pivot early on. We were actually looking more on the medical wound care side of things is initially where we were designing the product and the platform to go. And obviously with the regulatory landscape, we've made the shift into topical cosmetics. So we just launched in January. We are solely focused on Exosomes and in fact we are just going to market for first with our highest potency post treatment serum only in the professional channel. And so we really want to build this out from a scientific credibility perspective first. So I've spent, just to quickly introduce myself.
- [02:05]
B
So I've.
- [02:05]
C
I've spent the better part of the last 25 years really focused more on the brand consulting, innovation and strategy work. And so as part of that being in the agency world, I was CEO of one of the agencies inside of Omnicom. And so I spent years, whether it was building brands and strategy or innovation pipelines from, you know, the Pepsi, the Nestle's, the Disney's of the world. And what was interesting for me is probably about six or seven years ago I was working on a project on the future of anti aging and longevity for skin care. And so that was my first introduction to even what exosomes were. But what excites me is how to translate something with scientific credibility into the market in a meaningful way. And I'm sure we'll get into this later where kind of the hype is way ahead of the science today in the exosom market. And so I think that gives us a really unique positioning to lean into the scientific credibility and not just marketing claims.
- [03:02]
A
Absolutely. And I'm grateful for that introduction because I think it's really important for our listeners to understand that you guys are not coming from a space of let's make another skincare product, you know, and I think that's a really, really important distinction right now. And I'm not just saying this, I know for everyone listening, you guys have heard countless interviews we've done here, you know, on exosomes, it's that we are all talking about skin care, but then we never discuss where their true regenerative, the breadth of it is, you know what I mean? In aesthetics especially. So with that said, John, I would love to have you give us this like intro to exosomes, you know, just to really make us understand what should we obviously as consumers know, but what should we know as even professionals in this space, whether we're doctors, dermatologists, estheticians, whoever's listening to really understand the science of the nanoparticles.
- [03:48]
B
Hello. Well, exosomes, they are really a subpopulation of extracellular vesicles, specific those of endosomal origin, the particle size, they range between 30 to 150 nanometers. So it's really, really small. And they're very distinct from micro vesicles, which bud directly from the plasma membrane which are released during cell death. EV is the scientifically correct umbrella term. And exosome is specific subclass defined by biogenesis pathway. So it's not just size. And our position at exocellular is that we will characterize to the exosome subclass specifically using markers that confirm endosomal origin and not just partic.
- [04:27]
A
Yeah, that was wonderful. And for everyone listening, I want to dive deeper into that, if you don't mind. I mean, let's talk about a couple of these markers. I know that the data that exeller has on the marketing end, right in the very beginning phases of creating any product, you guys have very strong data there, you know, and it's very transparent. So I would love for you to get us started on understanding what are the markers as defined by myself, guidelines or that we should know about and what do they mean.
- [04:53]
B
As for the markers, there are three tetraspendants that we are looking at. One is CD9, one is CD83, 63 rather, and one is CD81. These are the most widely used exosome identity markers, but they mean very different when it comes biologically. For example, CD63 is the most endosome specific and CD81 is enriched on exosomes versus other EVs and confirms membrane integrity. CD9 is more broadly expressed for biogenesis confirmation. TSG101 and Alex are more mechanistically informative. And as far as what we use most of the time we use the CD81 marker which is very involved in cell signaling and its presence confirms membrane integrity and endosomal compartment association. And it's more exosome specific than CD9 alone. Our position is that CD81 positively is more specific to true exosomes than CD9 or size alone. It is, I think, the right marker to confirm.
- [05:51]
A
Well, that's good to know. Yeah, because we do hear about all three of them, you know, especially when it comes to like mainstream media. Andrew, I'm sure I'd love for you to chime in here a little bit about what were the difficulties, right, as a brand in terms of like seeing where the media is headed with like this information, how it's so hodgepodge right now, and knowing what you guys know about your product, that you've done your due diligence, like what's the most difficult part for you from that business side of like where this industry is headed and like what we should know, you know, and be aware of when it comes to the science versus not.
- [06:19]
C
Yeah, I mean that's the perfect question for where the market is right now. So I think it's a very easy translation to talk about how the hype has gotten ahead of the science and it became, you know, with the proliferation of exosomes through the lyophilization and freeze drying capability essentially opened it up and we like to talk about that. Lyophilization solved a logistics problem it did not solve. Bringing exosomes to the market in the most viable way. And it's really tough. Like you walk into any aesthetics conference and I think the number of exosome brands probably doubles every conference. There's new products coming out all of the time. There's some, a lot of liberties taken with terminology, right. We hear exosome inspired, exosome infused, exosome derived, and a lot of people just making all sorts of claims that are very specific to exosomes, not necessarily to what's being delivered at the moment of treatment. And so one, for us in the market, the benefit is the high level education and awareness of exosomes has reached, has reached a pretty, pretty good mass right now. And that's generally the hardest part of launching a new brand into a world like this is people even understanding what are we bringing to the market. And so now we actually look at, we've seen the backlash in the market as studies have come out about lyophilization, about other storage methodologies, even understanding frozen exosomes that as soon as you thaw them, they start to aggregate and clump and they may become useless. So we've really wanted to hit into the market and this is why we chose to come in the professional channel first, because we want to bring this to plastic surgeons, to dermatologists, to high end medical estheticians and nurses. That would understand why the benefits of the liposomal encapsulation that John will talk about how that is the unlock to the stability from source to the moment it's really about. And this is what I would push a lot of both clinicians, consumers and even other brands. It is as important to identify the source and what we are starting with in exosomes. I think that is so vital right now because there is just a lot where people aren't even verifying what they started with. Yeah, Equally as important is it all there, viable, intact and active at the moment you're going to use it. And we all know reconstitution, freeze, thaw cycles, all of these things are very damaging to the sensitive membranes of the exosomes. And so for us, leaning in with the science, leaning it with the breakthrough, I mean, we have two patents granted, two patents pending. We have really built this out. John and the rest of the team have done an amazing job of really enabling us from a market perspective to have the confidence to go out knowing that we may have the only viable exosome product in the shelf stable environment. At the same time, we are also very transparent that, you know, we just launched in January. We have done a significant amount of testing. We know that the Myserve guidelines are evolving and what is it going to take and where the whole market goes. So our promise in the market is we won't shy away from any tests if we haven't done it today. It just hasn't been in the roadmap. It has been to getting to this point where we know we have got something verified independently, backed by independent labs, that what we have built is real. And so it's very exciting for us. We can fight the headwinds in market because everything people are lashing back in the market is where we've come in from the beginning to solve it.
- [09:31]
A
I love that and I love everything that you said because there's a really key point in all of that that I really feel like we all need to really understand at this point as consumers and also professionals is that third party testing is everything. Making sure that from the very beginning you do your due diligence on the research side, like the research guidelines side is very, very important in the EV space. For me as a scientist looking into this space and the media, that's been it so far. I have been confused because we went from like not understanding to like hyper critique point. I mean that's a good thing. That's how science evolves. But at the same time we're not discussing exactly what you just explained, Andrew, which is the first step is the professional space. How did we just skip over the, you know what I mean? Like how did brands just skip over the professional outlet? Let doctors, let derms, let estheticians use the products to figure out if they even work and then let's worry about everything else. And that's what I've seen time and time again in so many companies that have come out with Exome products is that you can't talk about the professional results, the clinical based results that they're seeing in an office setting. So I mean that's my little rant about it. But I know for anyone listening, if you guys have seen those products, I know because it makes you wonder as a consumer like, well, what is your data?
- [10:39]
C
Well, and I think, because I could not agree more. And the flip side of that is so many Exosome companies are putting out a ton of data, they're inundating us with a clinical study on this and something on this. But to your point, it's not answering the core questions, right? I agree with what you wrote here, but it doesn't answer your source, it doesn't answer Your product viability at use. You know, that's the maneuvering. We'll put out a lot of data on the things that we can put, but we are focused on. Let's prove the things that are. Let's get the data around the areas that prove what we know is already true.
- [11:10]
A
That's right. No, I love that. No, John, I would love to pick your brain a little bit because Andrew brought up, I think, one of the most important parts of this conversation scientifically, which is the lipid membrane, you know, that you really chase, is an exosome. And I would love for you to do a deep dive for us, if you can, and tell us about the relevance of that membrane and what we really do need to understand from the science side.
- [11:29]
B
Well, first and foremost, the lipid membrane of the exosomes, it's very fragile. The exosomes are supposed to be given out by the cell and immediately communicate with the cell right next to it. So there's this time in this ether is very short. The problem with a lot of the exosome products out there is that the creams and the serums and all these other types of vehicles that they're using is so damaging to that lipid bilayer. And the moment you put it in a cream, or whatever fragrance they have in there, or whatever preservative system they have in there, it ruptures the lipid bilayer. And what happens is that it releases all that information and it's gone. And you end up with exomeres, which doesn't really do anything. And that's the beauty about having liposomal exosomes, is that you have a liposome detecting the lipid bilayer of the exosomes in our products.
- [12:16]
A
I want to take it a little bit, you know, a step further and ask, for example, Andrew, you brought up lyophilization. We've heard about lyophilization, John. It's been around since we started talking about exosomes in general. But. But then I think at this point, as an industry, we know it's not a viable way to preserve exosomes. Any EVs. What is it that we should really understand about lyophilization? Like, if you were to explain, like, what that actually does to the lipid membrane and, like, you know, why that matters, like, how would you want us to understand that?
- [12:44]
B
So, couple of things. I'll give a little example here. You go to the wine store and you get yourself a nice good bottle of, I don't know, Pinot Grigio, right? You put it in the freezer because you want to make it nice and chilled, but you forget that you put it in there. The next day you open your freez and the bottle exploded. It pops. You crack the bottle. Well, it's the same thing with lyophilization. What happens is that when they freeze this, the internal pressure of the freezing exosome liquid expands and therefore it will actually rupture the lipid bilayer and you're essentially lysing the exosome. And by freeze drying that you also remove all the moisture that's required for all these very important components. That's supposed to be working. But the problem is now you've killed it. You've pretty much attenuated. In addition, let's say for example, you are successful in freeze drying this exosome and it's still there the moment you rehydrate that. And may it be saline or not, the influx of liquid going into the freeze dried exosome is going to be so, so drastic. You end up still popping the balloon.
- [13:49]
A
Yeah.
- [13:50]
B
So the misconception is that freeze dried exosomes is equivalent to the liquid exosomes. Life fertilization is a preservation method, but it's not a neutral one. There's a study by Rugolska in 2024 directly demonstrated that life lies mesenchymal stem cell exosomes secretome stored at room temperature loses the majority of key bioactive molecules such as BDNF, BNGF, IL 6 and SVCAM 1. The field adopted lycation for logistical convenience, but it's, it's not biological equivalence. The components are there, they're just, just all over the place. They're not compartmentalized into an exosome anymore.
- [14:29]
C
The way you described it is so helpful, which is why I love having John as our lead scientist because he can help translate things for people like me. Yeah, I think a very easy analogy is we can freeze dry strawberries.
- [14:41]
B
Yeah, right.
- [14:42]
C
You absolutely can. But when you rehydrate them, I think John just said all the same things might be in there, but it sure doesn't look the same.
- [14:49]
B
It's soggy.
- [14:50]
C
You have changed the integrity of the structure, even if you kept a lot of the elements, which is why freeze drying is a very good preserv method for a lot of things. When we're talking about nanoparticle membrane integrity, just imagine what everything John just described and I think now the data is there to show us that that is probably one of the most stressful things you can do to an exosome, when you really cannot stress exosomes if you want them to work.
- [15:14]
A
That's right. And I love that we are touching on this because as most, you know, biologists know, everybody who studied Human Biology 101 would know is that if you are a membrane, a lipid membrane's mobility is not intact. It doesn't matter what's embedded in that membrane. So these tetraspanins that we always love citing, if you're freeze drying your membranes and they are not intact, you could have every CD marker in the world. It's not going to work because the membrane's not actually alive and working. So the fluidity of lipid membranes matters. And that is something that I'm so glad that we just talked about, because in my opinion, that's the entire ethos behind the ability of these exomes to even sign. So with that in mind, John, I would love for us to take it a step further if we can. Well, actually, let's rewind a little bit because you talked about aggregation, right? Like let's talk about the idea of aggregation of exosomes and talking about if you are freezing them, what happens to that aggregation component and then why does that matter for us for the end product?
- [16:15]
B
Well, when you freeze the, the exosomes, like what I said, it really makes the lipid bilayer, the encapsulant, very brittle. I mean, that's such an extreme environment for the exosome to survive, right. And the moment disrupt that, it's just gonna lies the exosomes and all those things will just go all over the place. But let's just say the exosomes are in a product in the serum. If you don't have anything to separate those exosomes keeping them apart, they're gonna start clumping up like grapes. And the moment that happens, what happens to the lipid bilayer? When a lipid bilayer hits a cell wall, well, it will actually merge with it. And by doing that, what's that? Endocytosis. Maybe the goodies inside the exosome is released into the other cell. But if you have a cluster of grapes of exosomes together, they'll start merging with each other and to start getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And now you'll have, you know, a lot of proteins in there that will self cancel out. You know, because you have proteins, you have an amine on one end and you have an acid on the other end, but you have another amino acid that's over here. So that acid now will react with the amine side of one amino acid, et cetera, et cetera. So now you're building a train, and now that's completely attenuated and absolutely useless. So by making sure that you keep them separate, by making liposomes to encapsulate these exosomes, you prevent them from actually clumping with each other. Other.
- [17:30]
C
And I, I think an important distinction here too, because just like even the word exosome is being well overused in this space, we're starting to see the same thing with the use of encapsulation.
- [17:39]
A
Yeah.
- [17:40]
C
I think what's really important in what John has described is that we isolate every individual exosome and then encapsulate each individual one. Even though I'm not a, a scientist, I've dug into a lot of patents and I've looked at how others talk about encapsulation, and I think that distinction, just because you encapsulate something, that doesn't mean you've protected it. Because encaps, the whole package is very different than individually isolating and encapsulating each exosome. That is the core difference in our methodology, our patents, and why this is working. Because it's interesting in the conversation that we see in the market, the aggregation conversation does not come up enough.
- [18:18]
A
It never comes up. Yeah.
- [18:19]
C
Rarely in meetings. I would explain that to people or to doctors and it makes perfect sense, but it's kind of a hidden piece that nobody wants to talk about because I haven't seen any other product out there that can address it.
- [18:32]
A
Yeah. And especially John, what you said about the, the amino acid interactions, that piece that science never gets brought up, like, I honestly, like that is incredibly eye opening. And I know for anyone listening, that's really well versed in the space. You guys know how important that is, is that just because all of these vesicles have things inside of them doesn't mean that everything that's inside each of them is going to be compatible with each other. So if they merge, they're going to cancel each other's cargo out, and it's not going to be what you think. The true therapeutic value is not going to get delivered when they meet the cell. So, I mean, I would love to be a segue. John, if you can talk to us about the actual encapsulation, why do liposomes matter? How does it work for exosomes, the encapsulation technology you guys are utilizing?
- [19:13]
B
Right, so we use a phospholipid that's the same type of Phospholipid that's used in the MRNA vaccine. Essentially it's lecithin. And it's a very simple process, but very, very energy hungry. The first time we encapsulated exosomes, we used a machine that required there's so much pressure. So from a liquid state and you pressurize that liquid into about 40, 50,000 psi and it comes into this very microscopic, a very small nozzle. And it atomizes the liquid the moment it atomizes the liquid. And of course with the addition of the lecithin, the encapsulant, it forms these spheres that's around 108 to about 250 nanometers in size. That was the very first attempt that we used high pressure to make tiny nano sized droplets to encapsulate our exosomes. But you want to make this in large scale, like in production facilities. It's not a feasible method to do it because it can only do like 50 milliliters at a time.
- [20:12]
A
So like research purposes only.
- [20:13]
B
It's for research purposes. So I thought of other ways to actually make nano sized particles and I thought of using ultrasound.
- [20:23]
A
Yeah.
- [20:23]
B
So I went to Amazon and I purchased me one of those jewelry cleaners. Yeah, that uses ultrasound. And I got my exosome liquid, I added my encapsulation absolute. I stuck it in the jewelry cleaner, set it at the highest setting. I had to put some ice in the liquid because the, the sonic waves produces a lot of heat and if you have too much heat, you kill the exosomes. And I just used sound to actually form the liposomes. And that in industry is used a lot. If, if they want to mix using ultrasound, they have machines that are 200 gallons that they can actually sonicate and produce emulsions and whatnot. But for us, we're using lecithin to make liposomes. So that's how take ours now.
- [21:06]
A
That's amazing. No, that's, that's really, really fascinating. And I would love for you to tell us about the true power of a liposome in terms of bioavailability of, of things. I know that you, we were discussing before the recording about vitamin C. Can you tell us, just to give us listeners, you know, like a little backstory on why this type of encapsulation is just amazing.
- [21:24]
B
Right. So you can buy vitamin C in the form of ascorbic acid all over the place. You take two tablets, thousand milligrams a day, goes into your stomach and it's destroyed by your stomach acid. I'd say more than 90% is destroyed and oxidized and only about less than 10% probably will be absorbed to the gut. Now if you take liposomal vitamin C, the encapsulated form of vitamin C, it's so rugged that it can withstand stomach acid. And in the end you would get more bioavailability of the vitamin C in the gut because it's protected from the stomach acid. It's the same thing with exosomes. If you encapsulated with make a liposomal encapsulant, it definitely protects the exosomes. We actually have two years room temperature stability on our liposomal exosomes and we had it tested and we did CD81 and CD81 was there still after two years at room temperature. So I think we have the data that you can show that our encapsulation is working.
- [22:26]
A
That's phenomenal. That's. Thank you for diving into that. I love that you brought up the two year shelf stability. And Andrew, I'd love to kind of bounce this off you because we all know how important that is. You know, every example product right now is, is claiming to be room temperature stable. Can you talk to us about that and the relevance in the space and how this is really a different playing field?
- [22:44]
C
Yeah, I mean that is especially in the aesthetics market. And honestly, beyond that being able to have true stabilized exosomes. I give a few of the competitors some credit that they actually have published some of this data. But as you will see, there's a ongoing degradation of the exosomes month over month. And I haven't seen one produced more than nine months. And they all have to be refrigerated. So the data that we have all done by three independent labs that kind of test everything that John was just talking about, we did nine tests over 24 months. And that's the key also when you think about, I come from a big consumer products background and there are a lot of ways to shortcut a 24 month stability test by using high pressurized environments and all of these things. Well, you cannot do that with exosomes because that environment will destroy the exosomes. So part of the reason we were, I would say, late to the game is we literally had been waiting for those 24 months. And I always tell us to John, I can't wait till 36 months because we want to keep testing because we had all, all 2.85 billion that went in, came out. And so this is one of the areas that I do think once we get through the Source question. We sourced the Wharton's deadly mesochemal stem cells from donated umbilical cords, which we all know has become the gold standard when we look at the cargo and what it's going to bring. So once we get past that, it has to be about the stability conversation.
- [24:06]
A
Yeah.
- [24:06]
C
And cannot say. I guess the false equivalent is our stability in our product that never changes its form. It is in liquid form. Is a very different. When you look at whatever time frame of stability on lyophilization, because, again, that's a logistics problem. So, sure, the powder is going to stay stable, but I want to see data after it's reconstituted. That's what I want to see. Are you still seeing the same things that we are seeing when we have not changed the form of our product and the only activation of our product? Because we do get asked sometimes. And I love the question where I've had a few surgeons ask me, like, well, if you're encapsulating them, well, how do they work? Right. We've got them protected. Well, it's very simple. As soon as you put it on the skin and literally gently rubbing it in, which is part of every protocol when you're using it essentially breaks the encapsulation, releases the exosomes at the exact moment you want to use them. Because once we release the encapsulation, we're back into the same challenge everybody else has with the stabilization. But to where John's comment earlier, you know, exosomes, normal environment is a very brief moment from one cell to another.
- [25:09]
A
Yeah.
- [25:09]
C
Trying cut that time down as much as we can. So we keep the exosome protected until the moment it is applied to the area that's been damaged.
- [25:17]
A
That's. That's so fascinating because right now we have so many people doing it so differently, especially on the freezing side. Right. So I. I think my question is, it's a little bit of a wild card question, but I am curious, like, for the people now who have gotten used to freezing the exosome products. Right. And just like keeping them in the freezer and then bringing them out, why is this important to understand that that doesn't matter anymore? Because I feel like that narrative has to change. Right. To understand, like, the true potential of the encapsulation technology. Because we've created now a culture of, like, well, if it's not coming frozen, then I don't believe you. That it's really preserved. You know, I would love for some commentary if you could, you know, kind of contribute to that. Conversation.
- [25:57]
C
Yeah, I mean, this is where what I would look at is the, the more sophisticated in the market have stuck with frozen because that is a much better option than the last. But there's so many challenges with it. So I'll get to two parts of the question. So the first part, everyone that is using them, my personal opinion is because they believe in the power of exosomes and that is the most viable way that they can be delivered. I'll know as soon as we thaw it. You can't refreeze it. You got to use it. I had one surgeon that he would stack 10 patients at a time so that when he would thaw it, he'd be able to use it all before it degrades. But it comes at a major cost. Cold chain storage is not a small thing, both from the manufacturer to shop, shipping to all of these clinics. But I kind of, as you said, like, that was the price of entry to at least be confident I have got something that's going to work. And I think that is, in a way, that's the gold standard preservation method today. It's just more expensive, requires, you know, more care and storage. And honestly, it's harder to use more accurately. So that is why to back to the beginning of the conversation, because I, I look at what we have built. Yes, we are in topical cosmetics, but we are building an exosome platform.
- [27:03]
A
Yes.
- [27:04]
C
Think about the ability to stabilize exosomes in their natural form is the unlock to so many things. And so that is why coming on here, focusing in on getting our scientific story of how we are stabilizing, like that's the first core story. That's the challenge everyone has been trying to solve. And there are workarounds versus real solutions. We believe we have come with that real solution. We want to focus it into the community that will understand, understand it. That will also be the ones to talk about. Okay, this is the right way to do it. This is the unlock that we have been looking for to bring all the benefits of exosomes into the market.
- [27:41]
A
Absolutely. Now I actually really want to talk about a component that I think this is probably the first real conversation I'm going to be able to have about this topic. And I really want to highlight that for my audience because we've definitely teased it before but never gotten any answers. And I want, John, for you to dive into. This is bioactive activity of exosomes. And why does that matter at two years just as much as it matters day zero when you're getting them from your manufacturer and how, you know, important this technology of encapsulation is for this entire area of understanding exosome science. When I think of bioactivity, there are so many things that come to mind, right. The big one that we've already covered that you explained to us about the membrane integrity's role in all of this in terms of delivering cargo. But now I'm also very curious about the bioactivity of, of like the other processes that occur when an exosome interacts with the cell, you know what I mean? Like in terms of eliciting a signal, something happening, you know, on that molecular cellular level. Why does that matter for a professional product? Especially the way exocellular is approaching it where it's encapsulated. When you're looking at post procedure care, for example, after microneedling, after a laser, something like that.
- [28:49]
B
Well, yeah, I mean bioactivity is essentially what the exosomes do. So you really need to make sure that the exosomes are bioavailable at the time of use. And typically you will have millions, billions or even trillions of exosomes. But if they are not bioactive and they're dead or they're attenuated, it's not going to do anything. So with that having something to protect it from being attenuated, like encapsulation is the only way to do it. So as far as bioavailability is concerned, you'll have all the, these phospholipids markers and all that and the moment that touches your skin, it's released, still bioactive and you get the benefits of it.
- [29:29]
C
I think John actually brought up something interesting too. As we, as we talk about what's going on in the market, this was actually one of the harder things for us to get people to understand because the conversation in the market today is about how many billions or trillions of exosomes that you have. Yes, it feels like that's the biggest claim. And I remember early on probably our, one of our early adopter plastic surgeons that came to on was making that comparison to us and the product he was using. And it took about a week after he dug into the data and realized that when we told him it's not about how many you put in, it's about how many are still biologically active when you need to use them. And I think that's again the marketing language when you're going for consumers. I get it, more is always perceived as better. But to John's point, yeah, if you've got A trillion exosomes. How many of them are actually intact? How many of them still have biological activity? Because the quantity, quantity means nothing. How many you have that are intact, ready to signal and dock on cells at the moment you need them. That's the only thing that's important at that stage.
- [30:31]
A
That's a huge, huge point, Andrew. And I also just like from my own curiosity, like I just want to throw out for all of you guys listening, like I always wonder this, right? Where it's like the companies that say we have a trillion, it's like you're just throwing the kitchen sink at my face and hoping it works. Like that's not good from the immunology side, you know, because if you have a bunch of dead debris that's then sitting on, especially, especially post procedure. I'm just curious as a scientist, what kind of inflammation am I going to have to deal? You know, I mean like just because these are nano sized molecules, like you're getting deeper regardless. So even if it's like junk and waste, it's still getting deep. Like that's a whole conversation. So going to what you were talking about, Andrew, it's so important for us to now like honestly shift from that idea of how many billion, you know, how much, what's the quantity? It's more of like which, which ones work? Give me those, you know, and let this become a targeted therapy. And you know, I also want to bring this up and John, I'd be curious about your thoughts on this. Where for a long time we were seeing secret home products in this space, they were being labeled as secret homes. And like secret home is, it means everything, right? It's like the soup of whatever sitting on top of a cell culture. It's the same conversation as like the trillion people, the people with the trillion exomes, right. They're like, let me just.
- [31:44]
C
We are, we are taking the guesswork out of what is going to work. We are isolating what is going to deliver the value for you. Cellular level. That is where we focus. Because you're right, and this happens in a lot of industries where we're trying to get to this, but if we can't get to this, let's just grab everything and throw it in. And it's that whole kitchen sink model that, you know, it may start a market. But I think this is such an important distinction that you're talking about. The entire category of exosomes is obviously going to be way more impactful than esthetics.
- [32:15]
A
Yes.
- [32:15]
C
And it is a little discouraging to see what this industry is doing to exosomes, almost like from a reputation perspective. And I' had to have that conversation a lot with folks that have been kind of burned by the promise of the products that they've had. And to me it's always about you have to bring the conversation back first that nobody should doubt the power of exosomes. How our bodies work, it's how we heal. You can absolutely question is what you're getting real exosomes. And so I think to the question you're asking, and John can correct me anything on the scientific side, everyone knows that the ultimate goal is isolating viable exoskeleton exosomes for targeted therapy, whether talking about the skin or other areas. And so if you can achieve that, the next best thing is people say great, well let's grab everything around it. And so I think that our encapsulation method, as I said is, is really the unlock of a new exosome platform and our ability, you know, to really bring the power of exosomes to multiple markets. But back to the aesthetics market. It's an interesting industry where we are taught as consumers that the beauty or the end result you are looking for comes at a cost. Not just financial, but pain. And when you see what's going on now with all the ablative lasers and these treatments, I've seen a few now that are, you know, they're documenting three to four month recovery times. Why, why do we have that pain to achieve the results? And I think it's the same thing as we just talked about. More is not always better. More invasive is not always better either as the whole industry kind of aligns. But where we come into play is our data is shifting showing roughly an 80% reduction in downtime. Now everybody's downtime is different, everyone's skin type is different, how you react is different. But we are consistently seeing an 80% reduction in that downtime. And I think what's important in that is this is the other part I think of exosomes. It's very much positioned in the market as we're going to help you heal faster. But when you listen to what John is saying of the source of our exosomes. So yes the exosomes have the anti inflammatory properties, cellular regeneration, but it is also bio bringing the cargo. So it is not only helping you with post treatment healing but you have the ability to now add the extra benefits of the cargo of the exosomes into the outcomes of those treatments as well.
- [34:32]
A
That's right.
- [34:33]
B
Can I piggyback on, on Andrew as well. You know, as far as exosomes are concerned, you know, your body produces so many exosomes, right? Your blood has exosomes in it, your bone marrow has exosomes in it. My goodness, even urine has exosomes in it. You can't use those exosomes for what we're using it for. So that's why we use the, the exosomes derived from mesenchy stem cells from Wharton Jelly. And that has pretty much everything that you need that is required for anti inflammatory and for healing and all that. And essentially you know, endosomal biogenesis that's happening in that Wharton jelly. So as far as a well rounded exosome, that is what we have. And it's not a specific type of exosome. It's pretty much an exosome for everything.
- [35:13]
A
Well, I think that's also the research standard is the umbilical cord derived Morton Jelly exosome. And I think that's also what really attracts me to the brand is you're going directly to the, the source of what the science has been telling us for, so you know, for however many years we've been doing this, and I think that's an important topic in this conversation overall, you know, in the exone space, is that we need to stop trying to reinvent wheels when we haven't even figured out how the wheels work yet. And I see that a lot and it's genuinely my concern as a consumer and scientist that like what John, what you were saying earlier, this is exactly what I'm talking about where you're throwing in 15 ingredients in your exome serum. I don't know what those ingredients even do by themselves, much less in a formula that contains incredibly fragile, you know, components and it. And so one, I mean obviously that's lying to consumers, right? Like I'll be honest, that's a flat out lie, you know, for the marketing side. But more importantly it worries me because we don't understand how exosomes interact with other ingredients yet. So like it's a really, really muddy area. And so people need to stick to the science. And if you really look at the science, what we discussed earlier, like my sub guidelines, that's a framework you can follow. You know, another one being the Wharton Jelly derived, that's also a guideline that's been proven in research. You know, why deviate away from that? It's a big question that, that comes up in terms of like what are you really trying to accomplish with this product at the end of the day, you know, from the regenerative medicine side, one of my big questions is that when you are dealing with a post procedure setting, which extracellular is, you guys are excelling in that space. Right now with post procedure skin, it's obviously more delicate skin. So in that context, John, can we talk about why it's very important to not have all these other ingredients involved that we see a lot of like, you know, in whatever that might be, if you can maybe talk a little bit bit about that.
- [36:55]
B
Yes, absolutely. So we all know how fragile exosomes are. Changes in ph alone will Destroy anything over 8.5 or anything under 6. With regards to ph completely attenuates and completely denatures the exosomes. The other ingredients in products from the thickeners that they use. If they're using acidic thickeners, that'll destroy the exosomes. If they have an alcoholic type of base, that will destroy the exosomes. If you have any type of surfactants in there, that will destroy the exosomes. If you have any fragrances in there, it'll destroy the exosomes. If you have any preservatives, believe it or not, some preservatives will destroy the exosomes. And as far as other forms, it's just so, so fragile and delicate. And the only way to do that is protect it from all that environment. Even the mildest type of formulation may be a cream or a serum. The exosomes, if it is not protected, encapsulated, it will start floating around, it will start bumping into each other, and it will start canceling each other out. So it' so important to make sure that you have some sort of an armor to protect you from all these environments. It's almost like a spacesuit, you know, without that spacesuit, you explode. Without that spacesuit, you know, you are prone to all these other radioactive stuff that's going on in space. The same thing with the exosomes. You really need to protect it by encapsulating it and preventing all these external chemicals. That's commonly used in very benign products. It surprisingly will actually destroy the exosomes and open it up.
- [38:28]
A
Thank you for sharing that. That's incredibly, incredibly important and just such a giant topic in this overall space right now. So I'm so glad you explained that so well, because that's one of my biggest questions as a consumer. You know, when I buy see an Ex Zone cream, it's like, well, I don't even know if this is viable anymore. So I just want to say I'm really, really excited. Honestly guys, like I am very hyped about what exo seller is bringing to the space. I mean this is going to open up so much more. I mean I really feel like anyone looking at this technology and then seeing the results because I know I've seen you guys before and afters. Anyone listening right now, you guys don't see the visuals I've been able to see in my research, but it's crazy. It's minutes of recovery time that you're, you know, that you're looking at like you, you'll see somebody's face after a laser procedure, 10, 15 minutes later, the inflammation is like drastically reduced, like it's night and day different. So I mean that's incredibly exciting to see this space evolve, you know, in that direction so quickly. So I'm very excited about this and I really thank you guys as a scientist myself, for doing your due diligence, you know, for, for all of us, for consumers, for professionals, because this is huge.
- [39:32]
B
Thank you so much.
- [39:33]
C
And what I would say to the listeners, if anybody is interested in seeing the data and a lot of the stuff you've seen. So We've got our 24 month study, we've got a really comprehensive white paper that will go through all of the sourcing, through the whole methodology that John talked about today on encapsulation. And then I think I mentioned this to you, Eka as well. And we can't talk about it all here today, but as we think about the platform and the innovation that we are launching, we are recruiting clinical partners that want to be part of the scientific journey, that want to help us as we bring new products to market and test. So we're just really excited. I'm very. Just on a personal note, I've shared this with you, Edgar. You know, I had multiple myoma and I had an autologous stem cell transplant that essentially gave me new life. And so that was kind of the shift right before I joined Exacellular that really got me Regenerative medicine saved my life. And so while we are talking about topical cosmetics in this space, but there's something really powerful in bringing viable exosomes everywhere and what you can do. And so I'm really proud of our team. We could have gone like everybody else and said, hey, let's go chase after the consumer and make all these crazy claims. But I think we're down the right path, scientifically credible takes a little longer to build, but I think we're really here for the long term and appreciate you having us on and this is a really great experience for us so we thank you.
- [40:52]
A
Thank you Andrew. Thank you John so much and I just want to give a shout out as well because I know there's some really amazing scientists that listen if there's any academic partners out there that would be interested in the science I really genuinely urge you guys you have to see this and you have to check it out and like dive in because this is really truly beyond what we've seen and I really feel like everybody on the academia side is going to geek out over this hardcore so if anyone's listening from that side if you're a professor at a university or even your you know affiliated please shoot Skincare anarchy and email we have everything in the show notes when you scroll down below and thank you so much both
- [41:26]
B
of you it's been wonderful, amazing thanks for having us.