← Skin Anarchy
Skin Anarchy
Why Kindness Belongs in the Longevity Conversation with Dr. Brent Ridge of Beekman 1802
00:45:26
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. It's a very, very special episode because today's guest is somebody I feel is very special for both me as. As a person who's been doing this podcast for five or six years. He agreed to come on the show very early on, and I was so excited back then, and I'm equally excited now. I know a lot of you will recognize him from, obviously, the amazing brand that he's built, but also the wonderful book that came out last year, which was Goat Wisdom. So please welcome back Dr. Brent Rich of Beekman 1802. Welcome back, Dr. Rich.
- [00:29]
B
Oh, great to be here. And I'm just so proud how far you've come, and I just always enjoy seeing everything that you're doing.
- [00:37]
A
Thank you so much. That really means the world to me coming from you. And I can't wait to dive in because as we were talking about before we started the recording, I am just such a fan that you wrote this book and you have pioneered so much in this industry. It's almost like you're our oracle. You know, things. I really feel like that I will. I want to start from the beginning, if you don't mind. I know we spoke about this the first time I got to chat with you and Josh on the show where, you know, where did Beekman 1802 start? But I would love for you to kind of walk us down that lane again, but start from the, like, the philosophy of it and, like, where it really stemmed from.
- [01:14]
B
Sure, sure. Well, for those of you who don't know, we started Beekman 1802 about 20 years ago. Now. My background is in longevity medicine and geroscience, and my partner, my husband and co founder of the business, he is a writer and was an advertising executive. And we were both in New York City. And, you know, by that point, I had been on faculty at Mount Sinai Hospital and then had left to go work at Martha Stewart's company to create a new division of her company devoted to health and wellness. And one weekend we were driving in upstate New York just on an, you know, an excursion from the city, and we came across this vacant farm property. And we were both at that point, this was back in 2006, and we were both at that kind of point in our career where we had had some success. But we're also still naive, right? We're still like in the early 30s, and we thought the whole world was amazing. And. And so we decided on the way back into the city after that apple picking weekend that we were going to buy this far and we were going to use it on the weekends. And, and one weekend we came up maybe three or four months later and there was a note in our mailbox from a local farmer and he was losing his farm and he asked if he could bring his herd of goats to our property to graze. Otherwise he would have to sell the herd. And so we met with him and could tell how much these animals meant to him. And we said, you know, sure, it's fine, you can bring them, you can use the barn, there's another little cottage on the property. You can live there. And it. We thought this works out great for us because we're only here, we're here infrequently, so someone will keep an eye on the property when we're not here, you have all your needs met. So it worked out great. And we say that was the original act of kindness that started Beekman 1802, because a year and a half later, when the recession of 2008 hit, my new division that I was starting at Martha folded, my husband's advertising agency folded. And we were in one of those situations where it's like, okay, oh crap, you know, what are we going to do? Because we had this million dollar mortgage on this farm and we had taken in this farmer and his goats and kind of made this handshake promise to him that we weren't going to leave him homeless. And so we googled what could we make with goat milk. And with our original product that we started making was a bar of goat milk soap. And at the time, we didn't have any, you know, plants that grow a beauty company. We were just trying to survive. We're like, what can we possibly sell that will help us make the mortgage payment? And that's how Beekman 1802 started with that original bar of soap. And, you know, as we had some success with that bar of soap and we can get into that, you know how we, how that happened. We just started hearing all these anecdotal reports from people about how the soap was helping their skin, which then just piqued my curiosity as a scientist. And we just started researching the properties of goat milk and trying to understand why it had been used for so many hundreds of years for sensitive skin. And that's kind of how the company has subsequently developed.
- [04:45]
A
I mean, I find it to be so phenomenal because I feel like, I mean, I'm sure, like, you know, this before our listeners. Like, when I think about science, it's like the Most beautiful simplicity, the most complex simplicity. Right. And when I look at the brand you've built, that's what I think for me has always stood out is like it's goat milk, but it's like it's a bar of soap with so much that's in there that's going to heal you. I mean, that to me isn't just luck, you know, it's like it's meant to happen. It was meant to happen. And then the way you followed up on that, I think is what just excites me as a scientist, because you followed up. I mean, you've done hundreds of clinical studies on the formula, hundreds of, you know, papers. And, and I want to understand this from you because we are now entering the world of longevity. I mean, it's everywhere. But you were the pioneer. I mean, you were doing this 20 years ago. So how does that feel when you watch this movement and then watching what you did with your brand and you know what I mean, like kind of propagating this idea the whole time?
- [05:44]
B
Yeah, well, it is longevity. You know, longevity is hanging in there. Right. And, you know, when we first started with a bar of soap, and for the first couple of years, that was our only product was the bar of soap. And you know, what we were telling people back then, Again, this was 18 years ago. We were saying, you know, the way you cleanse your skin is the foundation of skin health. Because if you are changing, you know, destroying the barrier as you're cleansing, or you're changing the PH of your skin when you're cleansing, that's, you know, what's going to cause this cascade of potential inflammation. So that was. And really, that was where the, the science was at the point. You know, maybe a lot of people back then weren't talking about the barrier, but that was kind of the. The frontier of the science at the time. And then as we just started researching the goat milk, looking at the various components of the goat milk, as we were developing other products, you know, we're looking at the fatty acids from the goat mil, you know, the omega 3, you know, the omega 3s from the goat milk, and then ligosaccharides from the goat milk. And that's when, you know, people really started looking into the microbiome. And I think the last time I was on with you, years ago, that's when we were, we were having the conversation about the microbiome. That's when our industry people were starting to talk about it. And as a scientist, I was just so curious then about the oligosaccharides in goat milk and how they serve as the prebiotics for the skins and native microbiome and how to make your skin's microbiome as resilient as possible. Because, you know, we live in a modern world where we're going to be constantly bombarded with insults to our skin, whether they're self inflicted or it's just part of the environment. And how can we make our skin as healthy as possible to withstand the forces of modern society? So that was that, you know, that was that research. And I think it just always comes back down to being curious and always saying, oh, what are other people talking about? And you know, you know, of course, as you know now a lot of people are talking about exosomes particularly comes to longevity. And that also was complete happenstance that, that we landed on that because, you know, I'm always still to this day reading medical journals and the more obscure the journal is, the more fascinated I am.
- [07:57]
A
Yeah, we're excited, right?
- [07:59]
B
You're the same. When I was reading about this study, these, these scientists were looking at how they could potentially administer doxyrubicin, a chemotherapeutic agent, and use exosomes as a delivery mechanism. Because as we know, exosomes are these kind of delivery molecules, delivery systems. And so they said, yes, we can, we can put doxorubicin into an exosome and deliver it into a cell. And so then they just were looking at what are sources of exosomes that would be easy to source, that could be inexpensive. So that if people start doing this in the future, what would be the source of the exosome? And they happen to find them in goat milk. So that's when that really piqued my curiosity. I'm like, wow, that is amazing that this readily available source of mammalian exosomes is in goat milk. And so that's really kind of how we started thinking about our, our approach to longevity, but really does go back to having that, for me, having that foundation in the gero sciences, because I always believed and I, when I first had my very first meeting with Martha Stewart, you know, 25 years ago, and she was asking me about healthy aging and I said, Martha, aging is not something that starts at 45, 50, 65.
- [09:23]
A
Right.
- [09:23]
B
You start aging the minute you come out of the womb.
- [09:27]
A
Yeah.
- [09:27]
B
And that has always been my personal philosophy. Better aging starts at birth. And that's why for so many years we never had a product that we said had anything to do with Aging, you know, and I said, we will never as a company have an anti aging product.
- [09:43]
A
Because I just, I mean it's, that's the thing. It's like, I think that is even before I had this podcast anything as a consumer, what do we do? Beekman was the idea. This is a brand that caters to my skin's baseline needs. You know what I mean? Like, it was never like, like, like as a consumer I can say that, that I looked at the brand as like a tried and true in my daily routine. It was. And I think it still speaks that way to many, many consumers. And so when you, when you're speaking about longevity, I think that's what is so fascinating about it. Because even what you were explaining just now about the exosomes, it's a modality that can be incorporated, but the baseline doesn't shift. You know, the baseline of the health of the skin, the barrier health, everything you just explained. And you know, I really would love for you to expand on this because I think and opinion, I think we're kind of losing the plot sometimes, you know, with this whole, I mean, you've seen it, I get it. The science gets exciting and you know, you get the papers in your hands and you're like, oh, wow. But at the end of the day, what does the skin really need? You know, and so I'd love for you to talk about that also from like an entrepreneurship angle because I think we are getting, you know, kind of lost in this world.
- [10:52]
B
This is a great question. And I think for us, from a science standpoint, if you look at any of the science that applies to skin care, and I know you know this, I'm saying this for your audience, even the most researched skin care ingredient, like retinol, like if you just really go back and look at what studies exist even for retinol, which we know is great. Yeah, the scientific studies of that are even not great. Right. You know, they're not robust studies. You know, they're not double blinded, you know, placebo controlled studies. In our industry in general, the science is always been, I don't want to say theoretical. It's hypothetical. And then you have to give the consumer reason. You have to give the consumer some baseline result. And then you also have to give them reason to believe. That's two very powerful things. Now for us, as you said, you know, our folks has always been not reversing aging. It's not purely esthetic. We say healthy skin is the most beautiful skin. So we always talk about how we can make your skin healthy. And as our approach to longevity is healthier for longer. But you know, when we talk about aging of the skin, we try to educate the consumer about the entire ecosystem of better aging. So yes, it's what we're doing with the microbiome of the skin and the oligosaccharides and what we, how we might make the microbiome more resilient. How can we deliver ingredients into the skin via the exosomes or help control inflammation as deep into the skin as possible? How can we do that? But then even beyond that, we think about how does the messaging that we put out into the world around the product make the consumer feel better about themselves? Because that psychodermatology is also part of the equation. And you know, when you get up every morning, you look in the mirror, we want you to talk to yourself with kindness and we want you to be positive. Because if you look into the mirror, say, oh, the cream is not working yet, or I still see this wrinkle. That negativity is as powerful pro inflammatory device as anything else. So we try to really think of that entire ecosystem. What is going to make the person who chooses to believe in Beekman a healthier person? And how can we address that throughout their entire body, the surface of their skin, in their mind as well.
- [13:22]
A
I love that so much. And there's so, it's so profound the way you explain that because we have known also like people go back to science all the time, right? And it's like my argument is always like, guys, even if you go to the science, the idea of kindness, the idea of this like mental health component has been proven. Like those studies that were done by the monks where they were watching the crystallization of water and like meditating on certain, you know, like ideas like that's real. And you know, when we don't have that intrinsically, it affects everything it, our entire health.
- [13:57]
B
So you know, people talk about epigenetics, they talk about inflammation.
- [14:01]
A
Yeah.
- [14:01]
B
But these acts of kindness and even starting with self kindness are the only things that have been shown to prove everything. And I, I, when I first started my career, I was doing a research fellowship at Harvard on a project called the New England Centenarian Study. The lead science was Dr. Tom Pearls. And what we were doing at the time was using the Mormon database. And, and we use the Mormon database because genealogy has always been very important in that faith. And so they had the records and so we were looking through all of the Mormon genealogy and finding families in which There were multiple generations that had lived to 90 or above. And so when we would find a family where it had like two or three generations where people had lived 90 or above, then we reached out to them, we did this huge intake questionnaire. We drew blood. And the thought when the project started was that by looking at these multiple generations of centenarians or people approaching that mark, we would be able to find the needle in the haystack. Right. Because we were in the haystack smaller, we're going to be able to find that genetic thing that made these families live longer. And the study went on long after I, you know, went off and started my career elsewhere. But ultimately what that study found and other studies have found was that there is no real genetic marker to longevity. And in fact, as you were just saying, the only thing, really, the only thing that has been shown to improve longevity, scientifically proven, are our social connections and our optimism. Yeah. So as many as exciting as biomarkers are and sexy and maybe there's a future for them, the only thing right now that has been scientifically proven is our ability to connect to other people and to remain positive in life. And that is what kindness does.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah. No, I love that. I really, really love that. And I think, you know, you know, what this reminds me of, honestly, is like, people have always had that like, age long conversation of like, you're a doctor, do you believe in God? Or like, you know, like people always say this and it's like, I honestly. And it's not about God, by the way, for my listeners who are going down that road. But this idea, right, that heavy, like in the weed scientists, I mean, you've like, you're Harvard trained, you have done it all, you've seen it all. And then you're, you're sitting here telling us like, guys, this is it. You know, kindness matters, love matters, how you feel matters. I mean, your health reflects it. That's, that's profound. And I think that, you know, I see that as a consumer. I see sometimes it's leaving, you know, in a lot of the product. And I, it's not an. I'm not critiquing anybody. But it makes you wonder in this age that we're living in, where beauty is turning into almost like a wheel, like we're turning out products every day. I'm all for innovation, don't get me wrong. But it's like, at what point do you pause and say, like, what are we doing? You know? And like, why are we doing what we're doing? And is the science really adding up? Like, it. It really makes you stop and wonder, you know?
- [17:21]
B
You know. You know, I do think that the consumer is catching up to some degree with that. I mean, you follow the industry as much as I do. And there has been a profound shift in the past two years. I mean, the industry is dramatically different in the past two years. You know, I think during the pandemic, which I think we may have. I can't remember the last. The first time we talked, but, you know, during the pandemic, there were a couple of forces that were happening that just propelled the industry, you know, because you had, you know, Instagram first, which, you know, the beauty industry has always been a big part of. And then you had TikTok, you know, the rapid rise of TikTok at the same time that people were spending more time on their screens, in Zoom meetings, on FaceTimes and things like that. And then you had government stimulus, which gave people more economic freedom to try things. And that was all great for the industry, right? Because people are trying things. And you remember, like, back in that time period, it was like every, like so many different serums were coming out and like, it was all these different things and people were. They were. They had the money and they were being entertained by it and they were willing to spend on it. And as you know, the rates of skin inflammation and people complaining of skin sensitivity also skyrocketed during that time. So that's right. We weren't doing healthy things for the skin, but we were entertaining people and, you know, whatnot. And I think now the consumer is rapidly eliminating product from their car. They're like, you know what? I tried all those things and my skin didn't get better. So let me just go back to the basics. But I think what's interesting is that the consumer is becoming more interested in clinical and science and whatnot. That's the natural progression of, you know, having access to so much information. But the counter to that is that the consumer tried so many products over the past decade at all levels. Like, they were trying mass products, they were trying prestige products, they were trying clinical products, they were trying lux products, they were trying, you know, going, you know, interventions, and they tried it all. And what they realized was that they all gave kind of the same results. And so now the consumer is like, you know what this masstige product that I can get for $15 is going to do the same thing for me, that this product that someone's trying to charge me 300 for is going to do. And I think that's the issue that we're coming into now, is that there are a lot of great innovations happening. Like, we're doing a lot of study. Like, we're looking at, we've identified new peptides and goat milk that have never been identified before. We're looking at the exosomes, like, and how they control inflammation. Like, there's a lot of great science happening. But when it comes down to the consumer level, even some of the really coolest, most amazing scientific things that are happening are not going to make a truly perceptible difference in the consumer skin, is going to make an incremental difference over time. And most consumers, they don't stick with something long enough to actually see the difference. So I think that's what we're seeing now. And I think as a brand founder, I think that's a really interesting place to be in from the industry, because then you have to decide how much of my finite resources am I going to assigned to research and how much am I going to assign to marketing. And for the past 10 years, that was less of a critical decision because you were just, you could sell product like this, like it was, but now that the consumer is being, you know, the economy is being what, you know, is how it is, and the consumer is, you know, being more conscientious, it's a tougher call. You're like, okay, I can, can I afford to do this research or because my customer acquisition costs are getting so much higher, do I need to deploy that money over here? So it's like, it's, it's a very interesting time.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great point that you brought up. And I, and I want to actually, like, pivot into the book for this because there's so many. Obviously the book is, is literally like the holy grail for any entrepreneurs out there. You have to read Goat.
- [21:46]
B
It's not just beauty industry. It's a, it's a very general book. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:50]
A
I mean, I'm not a beauty entrepreneur, and I've learned so much from it, and I think everyone can learn from it. You know, there's so many, like, guiding light principles in there, and one of the ones that really stood out to me, I mean, I think there's a lot that stand out. But you said we're drowning in information and starved for wisdom, and that is profound. I mean, I would love for you to expand on that and explain what that means and what you're seeing happening. You know, beauty and Everything. Yeah.
- [22:15]
B
Well, that was actually the. The entire reason we wrote the book and structured the book in this way, you know, And I'll tell this little backstory that a lot of people haven't heard. I haven't really talked about it too often, but we. The way the book came about was that we were on a train coming from the farm into the city to New York City for a business meeting. And a Beekman neighbor, we call all of our customers neighbors because they were our neighbors in Sharon Springs, New York, were so critical in helping us get started wrapping the original bars of soap around our dining room table. This Beekman neighbor came up, and he's like, oh, God, I'm so excited that I'm meeting you. And, you know, and we were just making small talk on the train, and so we said, well, what do you do? And he's like, oh, I'm a literary agent. And he said, have you guys ever thought of writing a business book? Honestly, we really hadn't because, you know, we're busy. You know, we're like, we. We don't really have time to do it. And he said, oh, but I think you would. People just love your story, and they'd love to know the details of how you grew the company. We, you know, we. To finish the trip, got off the train, didn't really think anything would come of the discussion, but he was just very persistent. He's like, guys, you should write. You should write a business book. I mean, he's a literary agent, so he's going to be aggressive. And you know that. Tom. That's right. Agent's name. I said, listen, if you can get Harvard Business School, Harvard Business Review to want to publish our business book, then we'll do it. And I. And again, I said that, kind of flippantly thinking, because that's the. That's like the gold seal, like, you know, like. Yeah. And he said, okay. He said, what. What would you write in the book? And I said, listen, I. I'm. I'm a voracious reader of business literature. Like, I love business books of all type. Like, it's just something I'm interested in, business psychology. And I said, what I have learned after reading probably thousands of business books is they all say the same thing. You know, if you're looking at Instagram or you're looking at LinkedIn, everybody has a. What they're trying to sell as a business hack. Like, oh, these three steps and you will make it are five things to whatever, you know.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah, like instant Millionaire.
- [24:29]
B
And I'm like, and I know from being on board those things aren't happening. I don't want to sell just for the sake of selling a book. I don't want to sell an instant solution to potential entrepreneurs because that they, they don't pan out. I said, you know, and as you said, I believe that there's too much information in the world. At that point it was just social media, it wasn't even AI. I said, there's too much information but not enough wisdom. And I said, I guarantee you I can look back at all of these ancient proverbs, you know, some of which have been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years in some form. And I can show that it's. Are these, these same principles that have been passed down from generation to generation are still the things that are going to lead to a truly great foundation for any business. It's not five easy steps or three hacks or whatever to a million dollars. These are the, these are the principles that will help you create a foundation for a greatest of all time business. And so that's, that was kind of the premise of the book. So we went back to these old proverbs, which coincidentally many of them have their roots in agrarian entrepreneurship because farmers were the original entrepreneurs. And we took those proverbs, we then went back through the business literature and found the academic studies that basically proved that these proverbs were the truth. And then I really looked at it from a scientific standpoint because as you know, as a scientist as well, when you have a theory, you prove that theory and then you have to prove that that proof is replicatable. And you know, and that's really what these proverbs do. They have shown by virtue that they have converted from something into wisdom based on how many times and how many generations they passed down. They have passed the scientific method, right? They have proven themselves in replicating, have been able to be replicated. And so that was really the premise of the book. And more than anything, as people read through the book, what we want them to be able to do, and there's, there are great little exercises at the end of each chapter that they can immediately apply to their own business or idea is to say, yes, the world is full of information, and that's a wonderful thing. But then how do you take that bit of information and convert it into wisdom that is going to be applicable to the problem that you're trying to solve? And I really do think that if people finish the book, they will be able to do that. They will be able to discern. Oh. Of this wealth of information. This is the how I turn that information into wisdom. And you know, yes, we have a very entertaining story in terms of the way our brand developed over the past 20 years. And we tell some amazing backstories in the book as well, which makes it entertaining. So we, we give the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine to make the wisdom go down.
- [27:36]
A
Yeah, no, I, I love it. I really. And you know, I love that you have gone into like the deep, deep roots of understanding, like, what is the wisdom in all of this? You know, and that's, I mean, to me, that's so important right now, especially because when I look online and I honestly, this bothers me so much because I feel like such a beautiful space to beautiful industry. And I've seen this specifically in skin care. Okay. There are people out here just attacking each other, like coming for people's throats. And it's like, you can't thrive in an environment like that, you know? And that's why I feel like the book is so timely because it's like, guys, we have to pause and like, let's recenter and focus on like, even if you're building a brand, even if you're critiquing a brand, where is the wisdom in this? Are you really doing this for a purpose or are you doing it for some vanity thing? Whether it's views or whatever? You know what I mean? And I think that's why, like, I'm glad what you said where you said this is not just for entrepreneurs and in the beauty industry, this is for everybody. Because you think do have to at some point in your life wonder like, what is my motivation for doing what I do, you know? So I think it really feeds into that. And I want to talk about this because I know right now we're approaching the world of AI. Everybody's using AI for everything. We're automating everything. But you've kind of mentioned this in the, in the book where it's like if, if you chop your own wood, it's going to warm you twice. And I really would love for you to speak on this principle of like, the hard work of what it takes to build something.
- [29:10]
B
That's right. Yeah. So this is an amazing old proverb. And basically what the proverb is saying is that if you can chop your own wood, you're going to warm yourself because of the physical activity of chopping the wood.
- [29:22]
A
Yeah.
- [29:22]
B
And then you're going to have a pile of wood that when it gets winter time, you're going to be able to burn. So you're going to warm your 12, warm yourself twice with one activity. And the way we applied that in terms of your own personal growth or your business growth is you really do need to have a fundamental understanding of how everything is working in your business. And you're going to understand very quickly what you're good at, what you're not good at, you know, what you're interested in, what you're not interested in, and be able to farm those things out that are not your skill set to other people who. That happens to be their skill set. But you still need to have some baseline understanding of everything. And, and when people ask about AI and always scared about AI and, you know, concerned about AI, I'm like, AI is a tool, you know, it's a, it's a new tool that we have been given. So get in there and learn how to use that tool and figure out how it's going to help you warm yourself, you know, in the future. It's here. You're not going to make it, not here. So get in there and use that tool. But yeah, that, that's kind of the idea behind that. So, you know, you need to learn everything about your business. Don't turn over every single detail about your business to somebody else. And I think now that our company has grown and we have, you know, 80 employees, and there are by far many people in the company who are smarter at their thing than we are, you know, because they're on the cutting edge of digital marketing or the kind of cutting edge of packaging design or whatever. And so we realized, okay, our role now is to ask the stupid question because we understand that they are experts, but sometimes experts get so into the weeds of the thing.
- [31:02]
A
Yeah. Like narrowed focus. Yeah.
- [31:04]
B
That then they don't take the 10,000 foot view of like, oh, and ask the right question. And so, you know, when we're in our executive meetings, we are the ones, Josh and myself asking the stupid question like, oh, why'd you. Why is that? Why did that happen? And a lot of times that stupid question is the unlock because it makes the team members say, oh, yeah, you're right. But we wouldn't know. We wouldn't, we wouldn't be able to ask the stupid question if we didn't have some fundamental understanding of what they were doing.
- [31:33]
A
Yeah, no, that's so, I mean, I love that because that's, I feel like that's what creates the best products and that's what creates the best things in life is like the stupid questions. Because most of us have stupid questions, you know, like when I'm, I do my skincare, you know, Dr. Rich even now, like, I have access to so many brands and I get to try so many things and it's wonderful. But then I always have the stupid question in my mind. I was like, well, my barrier is disrupted.
- [31:58]
B
Yeah.
- [31:58]
A
What is a disrupted barrier? You know, what does that even mean? So it's like, I think people just, we get so ahead of ourselves and we, you know what I mean? And it's in human nature, I think. Right, to some degree. But it's also like, it's interesting to watch how this plays out in our, in our purchasing decisions and our, you know, just life, like how we conduct ourselves in life. So.
- [32:19]
B
No, absolutely, absolutely. We're all, we are all consumers. We are all, you know, we all follow this. We have kind of the same psychological makeup, so we all kind of fall into the same traps and messaging and marketing hooks and whatnot. But that's just part of being human in Western society. And, you know, and again, coming back to what we were talking about with psychodermatology and reason to believe, if you respond to a marketing message and you buy that product and that product doesn't do any harm to you, but you enjoy the feeling of that product, you enjoy looking at that product sitting on your vanity or the experience of blooming out that product and that makes you feel good. Well, that actually is controlling inflammation and controlling cortisol level in your body. So that is a functioning product. So I think, you know, you just have to look at, don't, don't feel like you're being taken advantage of or you're, you're prey to marketing scheme. You're just, you're finding the modality that is working for you.
- [33:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, No, I love that. And I, I actually want to like ask you this because I think there are a lot of people who tune in that are maybe even budding entrepreneurs. They haven't taken the leap yet, but they've thought about it, especially in today's economy. I think a lot of people are gravitating towards this. I gotta do my own thing. I need that security. I would love for you to speak on this in terms of what should we know before embarking on the entrepreneurial journey, knowing everything, you know, now after being.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah, I would say, and I'm going to try to say something that's not industry specific but just very general. So anyone listening to this, and I Think it's applicable to many, many things in life is before you take the risk, always know what your plan B is. And I say that on the other side of this because we had to grow Beekman 1802 out of desperation. And what propelled us at the time was that desperation was the motivation. But that's a very terrible way to have to go through a decade of your life. You're so stressed out about that. And I think if we look back on how we grew Beekman, we. I think we came to that realization that that was really stressful. So how can we mitigate that risk? How can we mitigate that stress? And so very early on into the company, as soon as the economy started to turn around and one of us could go back into the city to get a job, that's what we did. You know, we said, okay, one of us is going to go in so that someone is providing health care insurance and someone is, you know, it's while the other person is trying to get this business off the ground. And so we kind of already, we, we try to build that plan B or that safety net in. So I would say for. If you are in a, in the enviable position where you currently have a job that is covering your basic needs, may not be providing you luxuries, but it's providing your basic needs of health care and it's putting, you know, the food that you need on the table and you know, you have a place to live. Yes, pursue that entrepreneurial dream. But you, and do it in your, what do they call it? You know, they, people say it's your, your not do your 9 to 5 and then have your 5 to 9 or you're working on your entrepreneurial dream. If you are in the position to do that, do that because you're going to be in a much better mindset to accomplish the things that you need to accomplish. Because coming at it from a place of desperation and just burnout is a real thing. So that's what I would tell all entrepreneurs. If you have that idea, start by pursuing it in your spare time. Sacrifice. Put the sweat equity and sacrifice your leisure time. Use that first.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah, I think that's, that's such great advice because I do see a lot of people are like, I'm going to quit everything and I'm going to become a founder. And it's like, ah, please don't. Yeah, I mean, but you know, my next question is for the scientists that are listening because I have to ask you. I mean, I like I said, you've truly been an oracle in this space. You know, with the beauty industry, the way it's moving, where it's going. And I think having been so ahead of the times all the time, where do you see us going? Do you think we're. I mean, is it the right direction or what do you feel?
- [36:36]
B
Yes, I think it's the right direction. I think we have a very educated consumer base, which is fantastic. I even, you know, when I was a practicing physician, you know, at Mount Sinai Hospital, I loved when my patients would come in with reams of stuff they printed off WebMD. You know, I'm like, yes, great. You are educating yourself. You may not always know the answer, but at least you have known something more and you're curious about your body and you're trying to be proactive. And I'd much rather have a proactive consumer, proactive patient than one who's just, like, not interested in their own health. So I, I like the fact that consumers are more interested. I like the fact that they're becoming more discerning and say, hey, show me the proof of this. I like that. And I do think what we're going to see is that you're going to have consumers who are either going to go the intervention route, like, have a quick fix, and whether that is a surgery, whether it's some injectable something, they're going to go that route if they can afford that route, and all of those things are going to become less expensive, too. So they're either going to go that route or they're going to say, you know what? I just need the very basics. I need a great cleanser that doesn't disturb my skin. I need a moisturizer. I need an spf. Though. Some people, no matter how much science you give them about spf, building up it on spf, but, you know, I think people are going to say, you know what, I can probably, and maybe even be healthier if I go down to just like two products or, you know, my facial, my cleanser, my moisturizer, and then my spf. If you can convince them to do it. I think that's what you're going to see. And now people, they're going to be some elasticity in the consumer base because we are, you know, prey to our own psychologies. And so someone is going to be able to say, oh, we have this new peptide, it's going to do this amount more. Or look at this amazing lip balm. And when you pull it out of your purse, it's going to signal to other people that you're in the know about something culturally, those that value too. So I think you're going to always have that kind of thing going on, maybe to a lesser degree. And I do think that what I'm seeing with social media is that people are burnt out on social media. Getting to that point across all aged.
- [38:55]
A
I'm there, I'm there. Yeah.
- [38:57]
B
And I think those things that were social signals or status symbols are going to become less valuable as people come off of social media because those things only have value if other people also know that you have them and that you can share. Oh, I have this thing, you know. So as we share less about our personal lives on social media, those signals, those social signals have less value. So people are going to be less willing to pay for those markups on those products. So I think we'll see some of that. And I think things will become more personalized. I think people will go into ChatGPT and say, here's my skin. I have tried already. XYZ what, what do you recommend? And it's going to give you, you know, some recommendations based on all of the information that's out there.
- [39:51]
A
I think people are doing that now.
- [39:53]
B
Right.
- [39:53]
A
Like they're uploading their scans and stuff onto gbt.
- [39:56]
B
That's crazy already. Yeah, yeah, it's. And what's interesting, I think from an independent indie beauty brand, which, you know, we are still an indie brand, I think it's going to go a lot harder particularly and for people starting indie brands because if you look at the way these large language models operate, right, they're just pulling, they're aggregating information, right. And then coming up with something to, to summarize and get back to you. And so unless all of the information about your brand already exists online, it's going to be almost impossible for you to come up in that aggregate of information, right? Yes. Yeah. And so all of the big strategics who either have lots of money to boost their information about their brands or you're an indie brand, you know, hopefully, knock on wood, like us who've been around for 20 years, who already have lots of validating points in different parts of the Internet, it's going to be really hard for a brand new brand to come in and be a part of that ecosystem unless they have really deep pockets and they can pay to be part of that ecosystem. So I think we're going to see a big fallout in terms of indie brands being built. Now that doesn't mean we're not still going to have lots of product and I think that's what we're seeing with K Beauty right now is that they are overall less concerned about building a brand as they are about selling the product. And they have mastered that ecosystem of cool texture, cool, cool packaging, cool 3 second tick tock video in right price point directly into your cart. Like they have mastered that. So we're never going to be without a new cool thing to buy. But trying to start a brand is going to be really challenging now.
- [41:56]
A
Yeah, no, that's. I, I am so glad that you shed so much light and I just want to say something about K Beauty. I don't know if you've noticed the same thing but it's like we're kind of doing what. Remember when you were explaining like how everybody had inflammation going on? That's what we are doing now again with K Beauty and I just wish people would recognize that. You know, it's like I love K Beauty. I personally have used a lot of their products but it's a lot great.
- [42:18]
B
Some of them are great and a
- [42:19]
A
great, some of them are amazing. Yeah. And I love the idea of like introducing new technology but at the same time it's still about 15 steps and you get locked into this like cycle, it never ends. And, and going back to your point about AI, I love. So glad you dove into it the way you did because I'll tell you, I've spent so many times like on chat GBT trying to find like I know this product is good, you know what I mean? Like I know this works for my skin. It can't pull up the inky. Even if you have it on your website, it won't pull it up right. Or it'll tell you something completely bonkers and you're like what are you talking about? I know this is like barrier loving, you know, and then you have to give it the inky for it to evaluate what's going on. So yeah, I, well that, that, that
- [43:01]
B
comes down to the visibility because for, you know, the way the LLMs work is it's pulling information and it's assigning different weights to the information based on how many times it has appeared, you know, across the Internet, how many times it's been mentioned in a video or you know, how many times and they give higher weight to things that have been invalid sources. So has X that's bit of information been in the New York Times? Has it been in, you know, medical journal, whatever. And for most inky lists, those inky Lists exist in one place online, which is on the brand's website. And you know, LLM is not going to give that a lot of credibility because it's in one place. Yeah. And yeah. So yes, I would say if you're a new brand and you're trying to get the, you know, into LLMs, put your inky everywhere that you can all the publications like publication make a YouTube video every day about your list. Yeah. And then you'll get into the to LLM search. I love it.
- [44:05]
A
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Ridge. This has been so amazing and every time I talk to you, I just, I love it because I just learned so much and I cannot applaud Beekman 1802 enough. Like, I genuinely mean that from my heart because it's such a tried and true brand. And I literally tell this to everybody. Like, I think I've recommended the brand more than any other brand I've ever tried in my life because it's literally what we started the conversation with. It's tried, true, tested. And then the amount of science you've poured in, you know, like, it's just like I feel like that's the blueprint of a great brand. And so I just, I don't know. I apologize.
- [44:38]
B
Yes. Well, you are trying to true be my neighbor, of course. But you, you nailed it. We have always thought about how to build not just a good company, not just a great brand, but a greatest of all time brand, a goat brand. And there's, you know, you can make a lot of money with a good business, a great business, but if you want to make a difference, then you have to go for the goat. And you know, not every entrepreneur is going to want to put in the effort to do that. But for those who do, we hope we can inspire them and give them some tools to do that.
- [45:12]
A
Absolutely. And I love it. And please send my love to Josh this conversation, but thank you so much. And for everyone listening, go buy Beakman 182 if you haven't already. I can't say that enough.
- [45:23]
B
Thank you. Thank you.