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How And Why You Need To Be Building Muscle, Why Soreness Doesn’t Matter, and the Myth of “The Burn” with Dr. Shannon Ritchey DPT
00:49:09
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- [00:00]
A
Muscle requires blood and oxygen, right? So the more muscle mass you have, the better your cardiovascular health, because your muscles is a tissue that your heart and lungs have to pump to serve that tissue with blood. So having more muscle can indirectly improve your cardiovascular health in that way. I like to think of cardio and strength training as complimentary. You do your strength training primarily for the gains in muscle and strength and joint health and longevity and bone density and all of those things. But you're not solely relying on your strength training routine to provide you all of the cardiovascular benefits that you need.
- [00:38]
B
Welcome to skenthusiast, the podcast, a place for listeners to hear from the experts and soak in tangible tips to get that glow from the inside out. I'm Amy, a skincare educator, practicing dermatology PA and beauty creator who bridges the gap between the consumer and the industry. Listening to the industry's top experts on everything from the best way to spot treat a pimple to the Holy Grail hair products you didn't know you needed to the drugstore finds that are better than luxury price tags. We cover it all here. Dermatologists, beauty and wellness experts, brand founders and thought leaders share their tips and tricks for all things beauty, skincare and wellness. Think of hashtag SK enthusiasts like the coffee chat with the beauty gurus whose brains you've always wanted to pick. You won't get this kind of insight anywhere else. Hello and welcome to another episode of skenthusiasthepodcast. This episode has been one that I've been very excited to record, selfishly, just because I have so, so many questions for today's guest. Today's guest is Dr. Shannon Richie. She is on Instagram. She is a doctor of physical therapy and I first came across her content in her program when I kind of started my own quote unquote muscle building journey. We actually also recorded an episode for her podcast where we talk about all the benefits of building muscle and increasing protein and dietary changes for our skin health. Which is one of the biggest reasons I started to increase resistance training and weight training in my routine. And since then I feel that it's opened an entire world of benefits. By increasing muscle, I have been able to keep my blood sugar levels more stable, which is something I track in real time with my cgm currently, kind of as an experiment. I have gotten better at tennis. I've gotten compliments from my tennis coach that I'm just hitting better because I have more muscle mass. I feel like I look leaner, I have more energy, I sleep better. I think that the results of this little weight training experiment have been so beneficial for me. And we also know that there are such long term benefits of building, building muscle. It's something I'm trying to get my entire family to do. Because while we know that cardio is so important for our cardiovascular health and for living a long life, we also know that weight training and muscle building is so important to make sure that we have good longevity and a healthy life. We live a healthful life for those years. And I don't know about you, but I want to be around for a long time. But I want to be happy and healthy for those years too. So there are so many reasons why I've started to incorporate more and more weight training. And Dr. Shannon's program, EVLO, is the one I've been using. So it's really a full circle moment for me to have her on the show pick her brain about all the myths we see about weight training in women. Like, am I going to get bulky? How much protein do I need? I was completely training wrong in the beginning. So just having her to kind of explain things, explain programming, explain that soreness and muscle burning actually are not good indicators that you got a good workout. So all these little things that I wish I had known from the beginning, we chat about today. I know you guys are going to love this episode. If you have any interest in health and wellness at all, I really encourage you to listen to this episode. I think it's going to kind of of change the way you think about your exercise routine. Dr. Shannon, thank you so much for coming on Skynthusia, the podcast. I am personally so excited to talk to you and I know the audience is really going to appreciate this episode too.
- [03:49]
A
I can't wait. Yeah, it was so fun. We just did my podcast, so we're already all warmed up and ready to go.
- [03:55]
B
Absolutely. And I first want to touch on a question. How did you first kind of develop your love for fitness and wellness? Because my experience has been for myself and also other experts I've talked to, it's kind of a slow build and we all, we all kind of come somewhere. Maybe we even like hit rock bottom or, or have like a transformational moment that kind of brings us to our love of wellness. What was your experience in that department?
- [04:20]
A
Yeah, it's so funny. I think that is really common and I think it's because of the lack of information that we have at a young age. And a lot of people get into exercise specifically, like when they're younger, without a Lot of information, thinking that they need to do certain things a certain way and end up burning themselves out or whatever it may be, or developing an unhealthy relationship with it. For me, it was a little bit of both. A little. The unhealthy relationship and burning myself out. I, in my late 20s, in grad school, I was a group fitness instructor and also I was in physical therapy school. So I got to the point where I knew how important exercise was and building muscle was, and I started exercising a lot. I would teach sometimes like 10 classes a week. Really intense, like boot camp style classes. You know, your picture like you're sweating, you're moving quickly, burning a lot of calories for an full hour. And then I would oftentimes do my own workout outside of when I was teaching, where I would go lift weights or I would go to a yoga class, or I would just go to another group fitness class thinking that I needed more to ultimately see the results that I wanted. Well, all of this was fine for a short period of time until I quickly injured myself. I herniated a disc in my low back with squats and did not take the proper time to recover. I went right back into my intense routine after a few days off and slowly I started to develop chronic pain across my whole body. My hip, my shoulder, my wrist, everything was hurting. And at the time, as a practicing physical therapist, I had patients who were also dealing with the same thing. They were going to these intense boot camp style classes or workouts or whatever they were doing and feeling like broken down horrible, but feeling like that was kind of the cost of doing business, like that was the cost of being fit is that you hurt, you're burned out, you're exhausted, and you're not seeing the results that you want, but it's because you're not working hard enough, you're not doing enough. And so I was dealing with this. My patients were dealing with this. I was getting treated every single week with from a physical therapist just to turn around and hurt myself again. So it was kind of this spiral and it didn't. It wasn't until I moved across the country and took two weeks off exercise, Just kind of moving and getting organized in a new. In a new state that I realized I feel so much better without exercising. Like, this is the first time I've taken a substantial break from exercise. And I feel amazing. I feel better than I've ever felt. And I just thought, that can't be right. You can't feel better from not exercising. Isn't Exercising supposed to make you feel better. And so I thought, okay, there's got to be a way I can see results from fitness and it not cost me my emotional health, my physical health. And so that's when I developed Evlo. I actually dug into the research around bodybuilding and mechanics and thinking, okay, how, because bodybuilders, it's really important for them that they don't get injured because they obviously have to perform. So I took some stuff from bodybuilding, I took some stuff about my understanding of mechanics from physical therapy school, and then some things from like yoga and Pilates and kind of meshed it all into one to create a muscle building routine that's effective but sustainable and doesn't wear you down. So that's where we're at today. And currently I'm postpartum, about seven months postpartum, but slowly trying to build muscle. Back before I had my baby, I was in the best shape of my life and I was doing the least amount of exercise that I've ever done. So it just goes to show that smarter, not harder is, is the way.
- [08:05]
B
Okay, this is so interesting. Tell us what that looks like. You're saying you're doing the least amount of exercise in your life, but you're in the best shape. Like, break that down for us as someone like, completely naive to maybe how to build muscle or maybe who's afraid of building muscle because of that whole, you know, am I going to be too bulky? There's that whole rhetoric around women building muscle and that they're going to look too manly or too bulky. So tell us, what does this look like for you before you got pregnant?
- [08:30]
A
Yeah, so first of all, shifting my mindset towards building muscle was the best thing I've ever done. Of course, it doesn't mean that I don't recommend cardio. I do recommend cardio and I do a little bit of cardio myself. I do about 150 minutes of light to moderate intensity cardio. So that's like walking or like a light cardio class or something like that. And then I do, I do recommend high intensity cardio as well. Just like one or two really short sessions of high intensity cardio every week. So that's sprint training, like 10, 15 minutes is all you need. So less is more when it comes to that type of cardio. But I really think of my training as strength. Training is the cornerstone and trying to build muscle is the cornerstone. And there are certain things that the literature recommends when it comes to building muscle. I have this framework called the Reps framework. And it's a really easy way for people to kind of recognize what's important in an exercise routine and what's not important in an exercise routine. So reps. I can go through this real quickly. So the R stands for repetitions. Getting close to failure in each exercise, in each set, in 30 reps or less. If you are doing more than 30 reps in an exercise, it isn't enough load to build muscle. That's what the current research is showing. People think like, oh, I'm going to Pilates and, and this is like really hard, but I'm holding this exercise for like three minutes at a time. Well, studies show that might be a little. That might not be enough resistance to significantly trigger the cascades in your body that ultimately build muscle. So repetitions is the first one. 30 reps or less. Getting close to muscular failure. Getting close to muscular failure means that you can. In your last rep, you feel like you could maybe only do like a few more reps before you couldn't do it at all. And a lot of people are like the burn. They mistake the burn or overall fatigue for muscular failure. The burn and overall fatigue do not matter. What matters is that you have a decrease in velocity. So your final rep should feel really slow and really hard. So that's number one is repetitions. This is something that we could probably do a whole separate episode on, but that's very important. The second, the second thing in the reps. So that, that was R E is exercise selection. So I just did a post about this. But choosing really simple exercises that target one muscle group at a time is going to be so much more effective than trying to do a lot at once. So we see on Instagram all the time these kinds of combination moves of I'm doing a squat to an overhead press to a burpee, or I'm. I'm trying to target my abs and my arms and my glutes all at the same time, all with one exercise. Well, the problem with that is that you don't stimulate any one given muscle group with enough in order to train that muscle close to failure. So you don't. It might feel hard and you might feel tired, but you're not approaching muscular failure in any part of your body. So that's exercise selection. Choosing really simple targeted exercises. The P is protein eating, 0.75 to 1 gram of protein per ideal body weight per day. And then the S is structure. So working each muscle group one to two times per week on non consecutive days, trying not to just do random workouts, like, really have a plan and a structure to your week. So that's what I apply. Wow, what a long winded way to answer this. But that's what I apply to my routine and ultimately how I've seen such good results and I feel so good and I don't feel burned out. It feels like, sustainable to do for the rest of my life.
- [11:53]
B
This, I think, was so, was such a game changer for me when I first started consuming your content. And I've listened to so many of your podcast episodes. They're so helpful. I also like to listen to them while I'm doing the classes because I'm the type of person who, like, I dread, like, I dread having a class on my schedule. Right. It's like there's just something in my brain that's like, I know I'm gonna feel so much better when it's done. So one way I like bargain with myself is like, oh, I can listen to a podcast while I'm watching the class and going through the motions. And so I like to like, I like this kind of content while I'm working out because then it motivates me to actually do it. But anyways, consuming so much of your content. One thing that finally, finally clicked for me was like programming and how I was a class pass member for years. Like, years. And I would just jump around to what, like, whatever workout sounded good to me that day without any real rhyme or reason. And I have questions about this later, but, like, I would work groups that were already sore. I didn't wouldn't even look to see what the class was like, whether it was a core focus, class or upper body, lower body. It would just kind of go how it fit my schedule and realizing how important it is to actually program your workouts. It makes me almost kick myself because I'm like, wow, I was working out so hard for all those years and then probably was doing myself a disservice when just a few little changes, it could have been so much more impactful for my body.
- [13:15]
A
Yeah, well, and I was also a big group fitness junkie. And that's one of the issues. I love group fitness. The energy. I feel like it's so motivating. But that's the biggest issue as to why people are feeling broken down and not seeing great results is because they're group fitness a lot of times lacks that structure that you need. So when you think about the loading a muscle group appropriately after you load a muscle group close to failure, you need it needs recovery. It needs at least 45, 48 hours to recover before you load it again. So like you said, you could be working your glutes in a class, pass Pilates class on Monday and then you go to a lifting class the next day and you're working glutes again. Well, you haven't given your glutes enough recovery. So not only can that cause inflammation and over use and injuries, but it doesn't provide an environment for proper muscle growth. So it means that you're working unnecessarily hard and you won't reap the rewards of that. So I think that is one of my kind of gripes with group fitness that I have such a hard time with because it's like on one hand it is so beneficial for health to, to keep people motivated and excited and like the energy, like, I get it, an in class person in, in person class is just so much fun. But on the other hand, if you really want to see sustainable results, most of the time it's, it's on, it's not the best path.
- [14:35]
B
And I have a question about that because I follow your program and I love it. I'm such a big fan. And for people who are kind of just starting out, I know that it's, it's common but not necessary. We'll talk about this too. For you to be a little bit more sore in the beginning. So let's say, for example, you work glutes on Monday in the program and then by the time the next glute day rolls around, you're still feeling a little bit sore. For those who are just kind of starting out, what do you recommend to do in that case? Like push through because the programming kind of already has taken that into account. Or do you take the day off or work a different group, go off schedule? What would you recommend?
- [15:12]
A
This is a really good question. So what's interesting about soreness is that it's actually not an indication that you stimulated muscles enough for muscle growth. Usually why soreness happens is because you had a heavy eccentric component to the exercise. So the lowering phase. So if you're doing a bicep curl, the lowering down is the eccentric phase. So eccentrics tend to cause a little bit more soreness than concentrics. It's just the opposite, the lifting phase. So if you have a eccentric component to the exercises you're doing, that's more likely to cause soreness. And then if you're doing a new exercise that you're unfamiliar with, that's likely to cause soreness. Both of those two factors are not factors when it comes to muscle growth. So those aren't what matters when it comes to muscle growth. So just because you're sore doesn't necessarily mean your workout was super effective. However soreness happens, I like to recommend light to no muscle soreness. And that's kind of like a good ballpark. In general. I still get sore and my glutes are a little sore today. What I like to say is you can train a sore muscle a light if it's lightly sore. If it's like I can't walk, take the day off and train a different muscle group. But you can train a muscle that's lightly sore. You might just be more cognizant of your range of motion, making sure that you feel stable in the exercises. But in general, I like to say if you can help it, you want those muscles to feel fresh before you train them again. And the reason for this is because fatigue will inhibit neuromuscular output. So we want the maximum amount of motor recruitment or we want the maximum amount of the muscle to be recruited in each individual lift. So if you're sore or you're fatigued when you're showing up to your workout, the quality of the workout will decline a little bit. So I like to say, you know, just to put a little bow on this, you can train a sore muscle as long as it's not so sore that you feel like you can't walk. However, if you can avoid it for the most part, then I would avoid it, but every now and again it's no big deal.
- [17:10]
B
And what do you say to people? We talked, we touched a little bit about cardio and I'm, I want to go in specifically a little bit later about your approach to sprints, because that's something I've listened to you talk about it a few times, still haven't incorporated it yet, because the thought of these like sprints, I don't know, it seems so overwhelming, but we'll chat about that. But people who say that they want the cardiovascular support that regular high intensity cardio gives them, what do you say to that? How do we use weight training to also increase our cardiovascular health?
- [17:40]
A
Muscle requires blood and oxygen, right? So the more muscle mass you have, the better your cardiovascular health. Because your muscles is a tissue that your heart and lungs have to pump to serve that tissue with blood. So it having more muscle can indirectly improve your cardiovascular health in that way. I like to think of cardio and strength training as complimentary. You do Your strength training primarily for the gains in muscle and strength and joint health and longevity and bone density and all of those things. But you're not solely relying on your strength training routine to provide you all of the cardiovascular benefits that you need. So that is why I recommend a little bit of strength, a little bit of sprint training each week, and a little can go a really long way. We could talk about this, your aversion to sprint training. I am also adverse to sprint training. So we can talk about techniques if you are. And then that light to moderate intensity cardio training, I do Recommend Doing about 150 minutes of that per week. And that can just be brisk walks or weighted vest. Walking is really big right now and I kind of like that. And it's a way to increase the demand. So if walking is too easy for you, adding a weighted vest could be a great way for you to continue walking. But just adding a little bit more of a cardiovascular challenge or if you're an EBLA member doing the steady state classes. And again, you're just not going to get the same in cardiovascular endurance benefits from strength training that you are from a more classical cardio workout.
- [19:11]
B
And when it comes to walking, do you have a metric? I know some people say like you should be, you know, like not able, either able to hold the full conversation or not even not able to sing a song. There's all these little kind of ways to know, like if you're actually exerting yourself at the right level when you're walk. Because it can be, I mean a walk can be, can be many different things to many different people.
- [19:31]
A
Totally. In general, you can talk but not sing. I think that's a good way to, to think about it. If you're not with someone, you can still breathe in, in and out through your nose. But it's getting difficult. You're at the point where you kind of sort of want, want to breathe in and out through your mouth. So your breathing does get a little bit more labored, but you're still able to breathe in and out through your nose. Those are kind of two metrics that I like to think about. But I really tell people, don't stress about this. Most of my walks. My husband doesn't like to walk fast. He likes to walk at a leisurely pace. And most of my walks are with him. So am I getting that zone two cardio when I'm on my walks? Probably mostly not. I mean, I think it's a good goal, but I don't think it needs to be Perfect.
- [20:12]
B
And so as when it comes to muscle, aside from the cardiovascular benefits that you already mentioned of having more muscle mass, one of. I'm really big on, like, glucose control. I'm so fascinated by the topic. Obviously, we chatted about this on your podcast, but because keeping our glucose stable is so important for skin health, it's just one of the reasons I'm so interested in the topic. And we know that having more muscle helps support that, right? Helps keep your blood sugar more stable. What other benefits do we see from having more muscle on the body for our overall health?
- [20:41]
A
Well, just to speak to that a little bit more, I think that this is one of the most underrated benefits of muscle, is the insulin sensitivity benefits. So we know that insulin is a hormone that touches and affects every single cell in our body. It's one of the rare hormones that has an effect on every cell, single cell. And therefore, it's a very important hormone in our body. We can kind of see it as the gatekeeper to let in sugar into the cells so that the cells can do their jobs. So it's a very important hormone. However, it's an important hormone to be regulated. And we want to be insulin sensitive because when we're more insulin sensitive, then we can use the glucose from our food to serve our body rather than storing it as fat. And it also improves our metabolic flexibility, our. Our ability to use blood sugar and fat and interchange those two processes. So the, the way that muscle affects your insulin sensitivity is that muscle stores glucose, so muscle stores sugar. And the more muscle you have whenever you eat, and the sugar from your food travels through your bloodstreams to serve your cells, and whatever's left over either gets stored in the muscle, if you have more muscle, or it gets stored as fat, or it stays in the bloodstream and insulin stays elevated and you start to get insulin resistant. So a big benefit, just to put it really simple of muscle, is that there's more places for the glucose that you eat from your food to be stored. So therefore, we have lower blood sugar and therefore we have lower insulin. And our insulin sensitivity improves, which improves longevity, it improves. It improves metabolic health, it improves energy level, it improves body composition. So all sorts of benefits just from building muscle and increasing storage sites for glucose.
- [22:30]
B
It's so amazing. I am currently wearing a cgm. It's. It's not. I did a whole episode on it. It's not something I recommend that, you know, people do long term, but for me, it's something that I wanted to kind of see where I was at. I have. I had gestational diabetes with my daughter, so I know that I already am at an increased risk for insulin resistance. And so I wanted to just kind of see what. How things were affecting my body. And so I started doing it about six weeks ago. I'm probably only going to do it for a total of a couple months just to get all the data points I need. But I did notice that after starting to incorporate more regular weight training, I was weight training before, but again, was not following a program. My blood sugars are so much better controlled, and it's not something I didn't really put two and two together. I was just kind of like, oh, that's interesting. Like, I haven't really made a huge. Like, I would eat foods that normally would spike me a little bit more. And I'm like, oh, like, it didn't really spike me today. That's interesting. And I'm just kind of putting two and two together now. And we spoke a little bit on your podcast how I also do tennis. And my tennis coach this morning was also saying, like, you're hitting stronger. Like, what are you doing outside? And I'm like, oh, I've been doing more weights. And she's like, I can totally tell. So it's. That's like. So I'm just putting it all together in my head right now. But it's. That's, like, so reassuring. Just gives me the motivation to keep going.
- [23:50]
A
Well, I'm glad that you said that because it is such a compounding effect, building the muscle. And to answer your question about feeling bulky, a lot of people don't do it because they're afraid of getting bulky, and yet they're missing out on all these benefits of the insulin sensitivity, the glucose regulation, the ability to do the things you love with more ease, like play tennis. So I think that it's hard for women to get bulky because even building one pound of muscle is difficult for women. It requires proper training, it requires proper nutrition, it requires proper recovery. So even building one pound is difficult, let alone building enough muscle to have that bulky appearance. So I think in the fear of getting bulky, women are really missing out on these acute benefits that you'll notice pretty much immediately. And then the longevity benefits as well.
- [24:35]
B
Yeah, it's just so fascinating. It's. And so exciting that there are so many comprehensive benefits. And of course, I want to get into a little bit the aesthetic benefit, because a lot of the reason people start to increase their resistance or weight training is because they want that aesthetic benefit. Of, like, leaning out a little bit, which we know, like, by adding a little bit of muscle, you do look like you lean out a little bit, right? Because you're not holding onto as much fat. And you can speak this better than I can, and you start to see that muscle definition, and so you look a lot of times leaner. So for somebody who's coming into this strictly from an aesthetic standpoint, are there any, like, little tips you can give someone, like, whether it be like, they're the way they eat or the rest days that they take any. Anything that we can really maximize the aesthetic benefit of of weight training?
- [25:25]
A
When we think about aesthetics, a lot of people want body recomposition. So body recomposition means losing fat and building muscle at the same time. However, body recomposition can also mean keeping your fat the same and building muscle, because now you've gained weight overall, but you have a higher ratio of lean mass mass to muscle mass. It could also mean keeping your muscle mass the same and losing fat. But for the most part, a lot of people want to gain a little muscle and maybe lose a little bit of fat. And that's that kind of, like, toned aesthetic that is popular, a popular term for it, but it's basically just the ability to increase visual muscle definition. So when it comes to body recomposition, it's important to note that exercise alone probably will not give you that aesthetic that you're after. You really do have to pair exercise and nutrition in a fine balance and recovery in a fine balance. And so weight training close to failure, using that reps framework that I recommended in the beginning, and then protein, of course, which is within the reps framework. But then nutrition is also really important. I always say I'm not formally trained in nutrition, so I like to keep my advice on this really high level. And if someone's struggling to go see a registered dietitian who it sounds like you have on your podcast as well, which I think is awesome. But being in a slight calorie deficit, if fat loss is your goal, is important, and a lot of people aren't really sure where they fall. Am I in a calorie surplus, a deficit? Am I in my maintenance? I don't know. So a lot of times tracking comes in handy there. So taking you don't doesn't mean you have to track forever. But maybe taking a week and not changing anything, but inputting in all of your food and kind of seeing where you're at. And if. If body recomposition and losing fat while gaining muscle Is your goal being in a slight calorie deficit is going to provide the results that you're after. So in order to find your calorie deficit, you first have to find your maintenance and you can calculate your maintenance calories, your total daily energy expenditure. There's online calculators which I've been told are not super accurate, but it might help you get like a ballpark of where to start. And then from there you can subtract maybe like again, the registered Dietitians recommend about 200 calories off of that. So it's really not that much. It's a very slight deficit. But the reason why I like body recomposition as a goal is because the calorie deficit is not so severe that you feel like you're starving and super restrictive all the time, so it feels more sustainable. And then number two, I like it because it does take a little bit longer than if you were just trying to lose as much weight as possible. But when you're trying to lose a lot of weight and you're in a severe calorie deficit, you're also likely losing muscle. So we don't want that. So I do like that it takes a little bit longer. You have to really make these lifestyle changes that you're ultimately going to be able to sustain because they don't feel so aggressive and extreme.
- [28:17]
B
This episode is brought to you by, well, me. Skinthusiast.com is your one stop shop for all things skin, hair and beauty. I have countless blog posts to educate you on all the skin concerns and most common skin questions I receive. We also have a complete skincare basics guide on our shop page as well as the Cutest in my Skin era crewnecks. If you want to support the show, please head over to skinthusiast.com shop and don't forget to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcasts. As far as the diet goes, do you have any little hacks for increasing protein? Like are there any favorite snacks or favorite meals that you have? Because that's been a challenge for me is just getting enough protein in my diet. Especially when you start thinking about like one the. What is it? The one gram per.
- [29:06]
A
Per pound of body weight per pound.
- [29:08]
B
Of ideal body weight. And even some people recommend even more than that. It starts to get really overwhelming for me. So any little hacks or recommendations that you have there?
- [29:16]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So I struggle with it too. I think it's something that you, you have to play around and this is why tracking is so important, because you might be like eating half the amount of protein that you actually need to see results. And I found I was doing that when I first started tracking. So what I like to do is think about my meals for the day and think about the protein first. So I'll think about, okay, what am I going to have for lunch? Okay, I'm going to have a leftover burger for lunch. That's the protein. And then what am I going to have for dinner? Okay, we're cooking salmon on the grill tonight. That's the protein. And then from there I'm going to think about the starches or the veggies or whatever else I'm pairing with it. But I kind of think in my mind, protein first and then everything else kind of on the side. And then after that, after you've gotten your like breakfast, lunch, dinner down, you can start to think about supplementing. That's at least what I do. And I do protein powder and I'll do protein powder like in my oatmeal or in Greek yogurt or cottage cheese, or sometimes I even put it in water. I. I will give them a shout out because I love their brand. Just ingredients, strawberries and cream. Protein powder is my go to. I probably have at least one scoop every single day and I'll just shake it in water. A lot of times if I'm like on the go and trying to rush out the door. And it is, honestly, I think it tastes good. I used to always be so adverse to putting protein powder just straight in water, but honestly, I think this one is really good. And it's like a quote unquote cleaner protein powder. So I think not being afraid to add protein powders, if you struggle with getting enough protein just from like your breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks and then other high protein things that I do all the time. I do a lot of cottage cheese, I do a lot of Greek yogurt. And again, if you want something sweeter, you just mix some protein powder in that, put some berries on top, get your antioxidants for your skin. So let's see, I used to do a lot of protein bars and I've limited that. And I'm not gonna lie, I haven't talked about this publicly, publicly yet, but I've noticed my sugar cravings have gone way down since taking out the protein bars. They're very highly processed, there is a lot of sugar in them. But I was using them kind of like as dessert at the end of the night because I always wanted something sweet. And I'm noticing that my sugar cravings have really gone down from taking those out.
- [31:28]
B
That was one of the biggest shocks for me when I started my cgm. They call them like the sneaky spikers of things that you wouldn't think. And I will, I will call it by name because I've already mentioned it on another podcast. But the Go Macro bars, which were my favorite, like, I love them so much and I was spiking as if I ate like a full snicker bar. Snickers bar. So it was very eye openening to me. And I had to do the same and just cut them out all together, which was a bummer because they are so convenient. And they do. I mean, they're sweet, they, they taste. They're like such a little treat. So I've had the same experience, have cut them out and have also noticed that my cravings have gone down.
- [32:08]
A
Yeah, I think that you have to. For me, I had to substitute at first. Like, I was like, I want, after dinner, I always want something sweet. I don't know what it is. And so I had a substitute and I was just doing like protein powder and Greek yogurt. Or I would make like a smoothie with some protein powder, Greek yogurt, banana or something like that. And had to kind of wean myself off. But yeah, it is wild when you're like, oh, am I like kind of addicted to these? Like, these are making me want, like more and more.
- [32:36]
B
And then I was, I would always say, like, oh, I'll just have them in the house for emergencies. But then I would have one every single day. Like, I wasn't treating it like if they were there, I was gonna eat it. I, I don't have the willpower to keep it truly for like, when there's absolutely no other option.
- [32:50]
A
No. And then same. And then I would get like the Costco, like huge box of them and it feels like they're never ending. So I like, I, sometimes I would, I mean, I'll be real hon honest, sometimes I would have like three a day. I'm like running out the door. I'm like, I need something. Like, I would just grab it. And then I'm like, I need a snack later and then after dinner. So it's like they start to add up.
- [33:09]
B
It does. And I think for me, that's my whole approach, even for my daughter. Like some of the packaged snacky foods, I try to just not have them at all because I, I, when I do have them, I'm going to rely on them. When I don't have them. I'm forced to for her and for me to actually make like a real snack from real food out of the refrigerator.
- [33:29]
A
It's harder and it takes more effort, but it's so worth it. Like it. You just, I, I do see a difference just from that one little change.
- [33:37]
B
Yeah, I agree. And you mentioned putting protein powder in like your cottage. Did you put it in your cottage cheese? Did you say that as well? Or just your Greek yogurt? So do you have a good option that's unflavored? Because mine is vanilla and I love it. But I try to mix it into my Greek yogurt and I like, could not stomach the taste, which is weird because I actually like the taste of the protein powder itself.
- [34:00]
A
That's fair. Just ingredients, which is the brand that I use, they have an unflavored one. And it's like I had her on my podcast actually, and she was telling me all about like how they source their protein powder and they source like New Zealand whey, which is like some of the best whey. It tends to be like gentler on people's stomachs and just like cleaner in general. Less ingredients, there's no added sugar. There's like real fruit in there. But they do have an unflavored one. That would be a good option for you. I haven't tried it, so I can't tell. But you'll, you'll have to try it and let me know.
- [34:32]
B
Yeah, and I, I talk a lot about whey protein too, because there is a correlation with whey and acne. So that it's interesting if I would be curious to know if the way they source it maybe helps with any of that correlation. But that's a question I get often too, like, well, what do I. What do you do for protein powder though? And so then I do a plant based protein powder. And then after talking to Lily Nichols, who's a registered dietitian, you know, there's a lot of question about whether or not plant based proteins in general are giving us the complete amino acid profile we need. So it's, there's, so there's so much to take into consideration. And I think, because I can hear the questions coming, I think you really have to weigh, no pun intended. Weigh what? What is your biggest concern? Right. If you're somebody who you break out easy and you know that it's going to break you out, probably there's might have to be a little more creative and get your protein in other ways, but it's so interesting trying to navigate it all. There's. But it's also exciting because there's just so much data and so, so many experts to learn from. And it really excites me to hear what everybody, everybody's doing.
- [35:38]
A
I agree. And I think the biggest thing you can do for yourself and for your health is to treat yourself like a science experiment. And I use the scientific method on my fitness, on my nutrition, in my business. And it's just, you know, create a hypothesis, test the hypothesis, measure it and come up with your results. And if it didn't work, go back to the top with a new hypothesis. And I think doing that process for yourself is one of the most beneficial things that you can do because then you're gonna find things that work and click. And that's ultimately how I came up with Evlo and how we're continuing to evolve. It is because we did so much trial and error and did so much research to ultimately learn like, okay, what are the most impactful things that we can put in here that I'm so.
- [36:23]
B
Glad that you mentioned that because it's something that I think people, when they come to experts for advice, I see this all the time in my clinic. They, they don't necessarily like to hear that sometimes it's trial and error, but the truth is sometimes it's trial and error and you have to find what works specifically for you. So I can give you what the evidence says and I can give you my recommendations, but I will always caveat that with like. And I'm sure you have a similar way to say this, but I always say, listen to your skin. It doesn't mean that what, even, even if we have all this data to support it, it doesn't mean it's necessarily. We're all bio individual human beings. You have to see what works for you. So I'm glad that more and more experts in different fields are, are saying that openly rather than, I think 10 years ago it was. You almost never wanted to say that there is a possibility that you were wrong or that your information wasn't ideal. But now we know there's so much individuality and, and really seeing how something fits with you, your lifestyle, your body, yourself, skin, whatever it may be, is so important. Take that feedback and make adjustments.
- [37:27]
A
Well, I think that this brings up a good point when it comes to strength training because I will say this reps framework and I'll say, you know, you, you do have to get close to failure in under 30 reps in order to build a Significant amount of muscle. And every single time I talk about this, I get someone that says, well, what about this influencer they're doing? They're not applying that at all. And they are like lean and jacked and I can see so much of their muscle definition. And I say, okay, well, when we look at research, there's always outliers to the research. There's always people that don't seem to follow what the majority of the people can do and still see results or still see their body change. So a lot of times on social media, I think especially we're seeing those super responders, people that are really good at exercise. They respond to things really easily. We call them kind of like super responders. Did I already say that? Yeah, super responders. And. But those aren't your, those are your outliers. Those are more of your exceptions rather than the rule. So it's one of those things where it's like you kind of have to block out, like, what people are recommending and just look at the science, apply the science to yourself. And if you're like, oh, I'm one of those outliers, then go do something else. I think that's great. But a lot of times you don't know if you're one of those outliers or not until you apply the science to yourself. And odds are you lie within the average data because it's average for a reason. Right. It's most of us. So I think that that's really important to note is like, try things, see what lands, and then keep going until you find what works.
- [38:57]
B
Yeah. And that's going to be the most efficacious way to do it. Right. If you're somebody who's feeling overwhelmed in any of these topics, following the evidence first and like you said, adjusting as needed, that's going to be the most bang for your buck. That's what, what's going to be the best use of your time. Because following the evidence is always going to lead you at least in the right direction and then you can pivot from there.
- [39:17]
A
Exactly. Nailed it.
- [39:19]
B
I want to chat a little bit about pregnancy because we do have a very large, you know, 20 to 45 listener base and a lot of them are in their conception years. And you kind of journaled and chronicled your entire pregnancy while, while still working out, even still building muscle, which you kind of mentioned. And I just would love to hear how you approached fitness during pregnancy. What changes did you make? Did you pull back at all or. I mean, what was your entire approach to your fitness while you were pregnant.
- [39:52]
A
I did not pull back at all. Now whenever I talk about this, I always like to say, listen to your doctor, please do not listen to me. Listen to your, I mean, you can listen to me, but without your doctor's approval, none of this matters. So every pregnancy is different. Every doctor might recommend different things because they're assessing you. So I want to say that disclaimer just right away. But when it comes to pregnancy, I think in general pregnant women are advised to take it easy, pull back a little bit, relax. And what we find is a lot of women end up doing that and they end up feeling exhausted, they lose their energy, they have a really hard time recovering after delivery because, because they've spent the last nine months being more stationary and probably losing muscle mass during those nine months. Pregnancy is a stress on your body, so recovery is even lower. So I mean, they haven't studied this. But if we just kind of understand the physiology, you're probably breaking down muscle tissue at a higher rate during pregnancy. So when we think about that, we want to try to maintain and, or build muscle during pregnancy. And again, there's no literature to back up. Can you build muscle during pregnancy? Because the, there's ethical reasons for studying pregnant women. So there's not a lot of research and studies about this. I can say again, understanding theory and anecdotally, you can build muscle and strength during pregnancy and you should, at least, in my opinion, try, at least try to apply that reps framework to pregnancy. Because what happens is you're more likely to maintain your muscle mass or potentially even build muscle mass. This helps with, with glucose regulation, which as you mentioned, can help reduce the risk of gestational diabetes. After you deliver and you're resting for six weeks or longer, you have more of a bank of muscle to rely on. So that when you get back to exercise, you don't feel like you've taken like, you know, years backwards. You've taken all these steps back. Of course it's going to take time to recover and things like that, and there's no rush. But you don't feel like you're in as much of a hold after you deliver. So I'm a big believer, if your doctor approves, is applying that reps framework strength training during pregnancy. I trained five times per week, so I taught for the EVLO prenatal program. And so I taught five class, five 30 minute, 35 minute classes my entire pregnancy. So five new classes every single week. It was a labor of love, like I was, you know, I didn't always want to teach. I'm not gonna lie. I didn't always want to work out. But I felt so good during my pregnancy. I mean, I was like, this is so worth it. I don't always want to show up on camera and teach, especially when you're, like, getting pregnant bigger and bigger. And I just, you know, there's the whole, like, body image thing with pregnancy, which is a whole separate topic. But I showed up, I taught new classes for every single week of pregnancy. And to me, I don't think there's a prenatal program that exists like that where someone is doing every single workout with you when they were in that point of pregnancy. It's all organized by gestation week. So, yeah, I mean, I'm a big believer in not thinking pregnant women are super fragile and should kick back and relax. I think that we should empower ourselves to get stronger and build muscle during pregnancy.
- [43:13]
B
I think it will be interesting, too, to see kind of how this changed changes the trajectory of the health of our children, because this is something I talked with Lily Nichols about as far as diet is concerned. But we're realizing now, and I'm not an expert in this, but I've talked to a couple, we're realizing now how much of what we do and eat during pregnancy literally pre programs those babies health for their lifetime, which is so crazy to me. I think had I known I didn't really get into the topic of prenatal nutrition until later in my pregnancy when I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. And I wish that I would have known from the beginning because there's so many things I would have done differently. And that's now how I feel about fitness as well, like just. Just programming that child for the healthiest life that they could possibly have. I feel like we used to think it was just. Just, oh, well, they see what they see us do is what's important, which it is important. But now we're realizing it starts, I mean, really from even preconception how much it matters.
- [44:20]
A
Oh, totally. And I would love to see, you know, longevity studies about this done in children whose mothers exercised throughout pregnancy. And I'm sure there is a correlation between health of the baby and health of the mother while they're pregnant. I. Again, the studies are limited, but I think if we just go on logic, it's like, yeah, the more fit and active you are. Obviously, to a certain degree, I'm not talking about, like, you know, doing exercises that are wearing or doing Workouts that are wearing you down and exhausting you. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying exercising in ways that are building you up and not burning you out. I just think it will be very interesting to see what are the longitudinal effects on kids. And I think it's, it's. It's gotta be good.
- [45:08]
B
Yeah, I agree. It's really exciting and it. And again, in a world where there's so much out of our control, it's nice to know that there are a few things still that we can do to really set ourselves and our families up for success. So, yes, I love that. And I want to wrap up with a couple quick questions, one of them being what is your most underrated wellness tip?
- [45:28]
A
Underrated wellness tip, huh? A lot of the things I talk about are very, like, obvious, like sleep training, things like that. I think, honestly, I think so many women focus on the wrong things when it comes to their training. I think using exercise as a tool to build muscle I think is the mo and not burn fat or burn calories is the most underrated wellness tip.
- [45:59]
B
That's a really good one. I love that. And where can everyone find you? Where can everyone find Dr. Shannon and everyone. I am obsessed with your program. I actually have watched some of your prenatal and it's very, very cool to see you going week by week. So for anyone listening to this who is pregnant, I mean, I can't think of a better system to actually, it's so motivating to see someone who's literally same week of pregnancy doing it. But the other programs in your system are so good too. So where can everybody find Evo?
- [46:28]
A
Thank you. Thank you. So evo fitness.com we have a 14 day free trial. We also have a free class on there that you can get on there and try and see what we're talking about. When I'm talking about the REPs framework thing, Dr. Shannon DPT on Instagram. Evil fitness on Instagram. And then I have a podcast, it's called the Dr. Shannon show that Amy was just on. And we had a really fun conversation over there. So they'll have to go listen to that.
- [46:49]
B
Yes, go listen to that. And I love your podcast because they're very bite sized and digestible. And as I mentioned, I'm one of those people who needs to have. When I'm interested in a topic or I'm motivated about something, I kind of need that constant reminder. So whether I'm on my walk or doing my Evlo workouts, I Love listening to you talk about the subject because it just kind of reinforces why I'm there. Right. And that, like, motivates me to then do it again the next day. Because I find that if I don't. If I don't consume that content for a while, your mind starts to go elsewhere and you just kind of forget about how important it is to you. So, yeah, I really enjoy your podcast. So everyone definitely go listen to that. Good.
- [47:26]
A
Thank you. It's a labor of love, and I do it for free. So I'm happy to hear that it helps you.
- [47:31]
B
I feel you. Sometimes it's like, wow, this is a lot of work.
- [47:34]
A
It is. It's a lot of work. But it's so fun. Like, I love. It's, like, my favorite thing to do. I love it, so I'll never give it up.
- [47:40]
B
Yeah, I agree with you. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Shannon, for coming on the show, and I'm so glad everyone got a chance to hear all of your amazing expertise.
- [47:48]
A
Yay. Thank you for having me, Amy.
- [47:50]
B
I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. I got a lot of my questions answered from Dr. Shannon. She also has really amazing social media content. And as I mentioned in this episode myself, I actually love to binge her podcast. It really keeps me motivated to continue to incorporate a lot of these things. As I mentioned, I'm one of those people who just needs, like, repetition of content. I need to constantly be consuming beneficial content to keep my mind kind of ahead of everything else and motivated to keep incorporating these things into my lifestyle. I'm also really encouraged and hopeful that my daughter growing up this way, seeing me exercise in this way and just supporting my body and loving my body and trying to keep myself as healthy as possible is really going to be helpful for her as she grows up. There's so many things I wish I had done differently when I was younger, so I hope that she picks up some of these things too. And definitely go and check out the episode that I recorded on Dr. Shannon's podcast. We talk a lot about how diet and exercise affect our skin, which is ultimately what brought me on this journey in the first place. If you're like me, our skin health is, like, top priority. So whatever we can do to improve that is always a good thing. And with that, I will talk to you next week, Skinthusiasts.