Slow Burn (Slate Podcasts)

Biggie and Tupac | Episode 4: "Against Those Thugs"

Release Date: November 20, 2019
Host: Joel Anderson
Theme: The Battle Over Gangsta Rap's Influence and Censorship

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Joel Anderson explores the fierce cultural and political battle over the rise of gangsta rap in the early 1990s. The episode traces how prominent Black activists—particularly C. Delores Tucker—spearheaded a crusade against violent and misogynistic rap lyrics. Their efforts drew sharp generational and ideological lines within the Black community and built surprising alliances with white conservatives. Through first-person interviews and archival audio, Anderson lays out not only the moral panic and censorship attempts, but also the deep questions about art, representation, and power in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Changing Face of Rap in the Early 1990s (03:00)

• Billboard’s switch to SoundScan created a more accurate music sales chart, proving rap’s huge popularity and commercial power.
• "For hip hop fans, these new charts were validation—proof that rap music made for people who loved rap was both hugely popular and a massive moneymaker."

2. Early Opposition: Reverend Calvin Butts and the "Rap Stomping" (04:10–08:00)

• Reverend Calvin Butts of Harlem’s Abyssinian Baptist Church campaigned against liquor, cigarettes, and then violent/misogynistic rap.

• Organized a symbolic steamrolling of “filth” (rap tapes and CDs), but was confronted by rap supporters protesting censorship.

• Butts redirected the demonstration to Sony’s NYC headquarters, targeting the industry for profiting off Black communities.

• “Recognize that this poison kills and the industry bears a lot of the responsibility. This is your garbage. Take it back.” (Butts, 06:50)

• Notable Sample: In 1994, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony sampled Butts:

  “We’re not against rap, we're not against rappers—but we are against those thugs.”

3. Rise of C. Delores Tucker: A New Moral Crusader (09:10–20:00)

• C. Delores Tucker, a civil rights veteran, shifted her activism toward fighting gangsta rap’s influence.
• "I am here to put the nation on notice that violence perpetrated against women through the music industry...will not be tolerated any longer." (Tucker, 08:35)
• Tucker’s background: First Black female cabinet member in Pennsylvania, known as a strong-willed powerhouse but later dismissed for misusing her office.
• Allies included Dionne Warwick and Melba Moore; the movement gained legitimacy and media coverage.

4. Tensions in the Black Community: Generational & Gender Divides (15:25–22:00)

• Tucker accused Black male rappers of capitulating to white executives’ stereotypes for profit.

• She uses harsh, graphic lyrics as evidence of rap’s harm to women and the Black community.

• Eleanor Holmes Norton:

  "I don't think that there's any doubt that probably the average American would find that music offensive...So she decided to go up strong against it." (Norton, 14:15)

• Tucker’s efforts led to industry reactions:

  • BET stopped airing rap videos depicting guns.
  • Radio stations dropped derogatory songs.

5. Rap’s Defenders: Cultural Context and Counter-Arguments (22:10–27:00)

• Congressional hearings convene on offensive lyrics in 1994; Tucker testifies rap is creating a youth crime “time bomb.”

• Michael Eric Dyson and Rep. Maxine Waters argue against demonizing Black youth and urge understanding the roots of the music.

• Maxine Waters:

  "These are my children...I do not intend to marginalize or demean them. Rather, I take responsibility for trying to understand what they are saying." (24:10)

• Media writer Kierna Mayo (The Source) interviews Tucker, finding her approach conspiratorial and out of step with younger generations:

  • “The problem with Tucker's activism ... is her fundamental belief that gangster rap is a cause and not an effect.” (Mayo paraphrased, 28:30)

6. The Broadening Audience and Commercial Stakes (29:30–35:00)

• Rap becomes a $700 million/year business, with 70% of sales to white youth.
• Record companies encourage hardcore content for its “rebel” appeal to suburban buyers.
• "Rap is essentially a black art form, but it's a gold mine for white recording companies, which artists say encourage the hardcore lyrics because they sell." (Narrator, 31:20)

7. Unlikely Allies: The Tucker + Bennett Alliance (36:00–41:00)

• Former Reagan cabinet member William Bennett teams up with Tucker; they take on corporate giant Time Warner for distributing gangsta rap.
• “I'm a liberal Democrat and I'm a conservative Republican, but we're both worried about the society our children live in today.” (A. Peter Bailey, 37:20)
• Tucker’s dramatic appearance at Time Warner shareholders’ meeting; direct confrontations with company leadership.
• The campaign sways major politicians, including Bob Dole, and mounts pressure on labels/distributors.

8. Artists Fight Back; Culture Wars Intensify (42:00–48:00)

• Death Row’s Suge Knight runs a magazine ad crossing out Tucker’s name—a gang symbol meaning someone is “marked.”

• Tupac, from prison:

  "I know they haven't listened to my tape. I know somebody geesed them up to go attack Tupac. ... We are the black community." (Tupac, 45:00)

• Tucker unsuccessfully attempts to start a “positive” hip hop label with Suge Knight; faces legal retaliation from Death Row/Interscope.

9. Industry Fallout and Pyrrhic Victory (48:50–53:00)

• Under pressure, Time Warner severs ties with Interscope but the label profits in a major sale to MCA (later Universal).
• Dan Charnas (music business historian):

  "You're not gonna be able to kill gangsta rap, certainly, and you're not gonna be able to kill hip hop in general. ... If it gets too hot, you tamp it down, but it's gonna pop up somewhere else." (Charnas, 52:30)

• Within a year, Interscope’s artists (Snoop, Tupac) dominate the charts.

10. Aftermath and Legacy (53:10–56:30)

• Tucker’s health and public profile decline after the industry battle.
• Tupac attacks Tucker by name in “How Do U Want It”; she sues for emotional distress (case dismissed).
• Joel Anderson:

  "Tupac was wrong when he said her name would fade. It's been kept alive in hip hop lyrics that Tucker surely would have hated." (55:30)

Notable Quotes

• Reverend Calvin Butts (06:50): "Recognize that this poison kills and the industry bears a lot of the responsibilities. This is your garbage. Take it back."
• C. Delores Tucker (08:35): "I am here to put the nation on notice that violence perpetrated against women through the music industry in the forms of gangster rap and misogynist lyrics will not be tolerated any longer."
• Eleanor Holmes Norton (14:15): "I'm not saying she was Martin Luther King, but she was a very accomplished speaker."
• Maxine Waters (24:10): "These are my children...I do not intend to marginalize or demean them. Rather, I take responsibility for trying to understand what they are saying."
• Kierna Mayo (28:30): “The problem with Tucker's activism ... is her fundamental belief that gangster rap is a cause and not an effect.”
• Dan Charnas (52:30): "You're not gonna be able to kill gangsta rap, certainly, and you're not gonna be able to kill hip hop in general. ... If it gets too hot, you tamp it down, but it's gonna pop up somewhere else."

Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 03:00 | SoundScan’s impact on rap’s commercial legitimacy | | 04:10–08:00 | Rev. Butts’ protest and the generational divide emerges | | 09:10–20:00 | Introduction & rise of C. Delores Tucker | | 15:25–22:00 | Gender/generational splits over rap music | | 22:10–27:00 | Congressional hearings and defense of rap | | 29:30–35:00 | Explosion of rap's (white) mainstream audience | | 36:00–41:00 | Bennett and Tucker unite; Time Warner pressured | | 42:00–48:00 | Artists retaliate; threats and counterattacks | | 48:50–53:00 | Corporate retreat and Interscope’s windfall | | 53:10–56:30 | Aftermath: Tucker’s retreat, lawsuits, enduring legacy |

Memorable Moments

• The “Steamrolling” Protest (07:00): Reverend Butts' planned destruction of rap CDs, derailed by young protesters, literalizes the generational fight.
• Tucker Buys Stock to Speak (38:40): Tucker purchases Time Warner shares to directly confront the media company—merging civil rights tactics with shareholder activism.
• Tupac Responds (45:00): Tupac’s pointed critique of Tucker & others who, he argues, attack symptoms, not the root causes of community pain.

Final Thoughts

This episode of Slow Burn provides a nuanced look at the 1990s national debate over the boundaries of art and respectability, the commercialization of Black culture, and the power struggles between generations and ideologies. By tracing the rise of C. Delores Tucker and her unusual coalition with conservative figures, the episode highlights how battles over music often reflect deeper anxieties about society, identity, and control.

Next Episode Preview: Tupac and Death Row launch a counterattack amid escalating tensions.