Podcast Summary: Slow Burn – Biggie and Tupac | Epilogue: Got a Story to Tell

Host: Slate Podcasts
Episode Date: December 20, 2019
Featured Voices:

• Chow Tu (Preview Host)
• Joel Anderson (Slow Burn Host)
• Christopher Johnson (Producer)
• Sean Holley (Attorney, Tupac’s former lawyer)
• Matty C (Hip-hop journalist, The Source)
• Cheo Hodari Coker (Journalist, TV Writer, Biggie biographer)

Main Theme / Purpose

This bonus episode of Slow Burn offers an intimate behind-the-scenes look at the making of “Biggie and Tupac,” amplifying the personal stories and little-known perspectives of those who were closest to the two iconic rappers. Through extended interviews with key players from their era—including a personal attorney, pioneering journalists, and those who helped launch their careers—the episode seeks to humanize Biggie and Tupac beyond their infamous murders, exploring their impact, complexities, and legacies in hip-hop and American culture.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Podcast’s Mission – Humanizing Biggie and Tupac

• Focus beyond the deaths: Joel Anderson and Christopher Johnson discuss their intention not to merely reinvestigate the famous murders, but to portray the full humanity of Tupac and Biggie.
• Three-dimensional storytelling: They aim to render both men “in three dimensions,” avoiding the tendency to reduce them to symbols of tragedy.

  “They're not corpses to us, you know what I mean? We're trying to make them three dimensional..."
  (Joel Anderson, 08:37)

2. The Making of the Show – Team Backgrounds

• Joel Anderson’s journey: From print/online journalism and national news coverage (Ferguson, Baltimore Uprising), then college football, to podcasting with Slate.

  “My career was built on tragedy in some ways… I try to be really thoughtful about the work I do...”
  (Joel Anderson, 01:53)

• Christopher Johnson’s role: Former NPR producer, work in Southeast Asia, creator of “100 to 1: The Crack Legacy,” and co-host of “The Realness” on Prodigy (Mobb Deep).

  “Started a couple shows out there... ‘News and Notes’, which was NPR’s Black show. The Black show.”
  (Christopher Johnson, 04:03)

• Mutual trust and respect: Discussion of their complementary strengths—deep reporting and hip-hop credibility.

3. Interview with Sean Holley – Tupac’s Attorney

• Perceptions vs. reality: Holley reflects on meeting Tupac without preconceived notions, describing him as “brilliant, charming, and fabulous.”

  “Whatever you might have thought, if it was bad, you wouldn't think that anymore.”
  (Sean Holley, 10:26)

• Tupac’s presence: Recalls Tupac’s almost “glowing” charisma and tendency to show up alone to legal meetings, which would be unthinkable for most celebrities today.

  “One of these people who almost is like glowing. They're so special... incredibly charming and, you know, a little flirtatious...”
  (Sean Holley, 11:18)

• Being a target: Draws parallels with defending Lindsay Lohan, emphasizing how wealth and a “bad” public image attract predatory behaviors and lawsuits.

  “There would be a perception... they are somehow bad actors, but they have a lot of money. So... they both... were targets...”
  (Sean Holley, 13:23)

4. Matty C on Biggie & the Role of Hip-Hop Media

• Who Shot Ya? and media myths: Joel explains the infamous song’s backstory, clarifying that the beat and much of the song predate Tupac’s shooting, even as the release timing fueled perceptions of a feud.

  “It's hard to argue that the song was made with Tupac in mind, but it's understandable if you think the timing of the release was made with him in mind, too.”
  (Joel Anderson, 15:02)

• Hip-hop journalism’s ascent: Matty C and Christopher reflect on “Unsigned Hype” as a launchpad for hip-hop’s future stars and the pre-internet influence of The Source and Vibe.

  “Those magazines... gave us a peek behind the curtain so that we could see what these artists were doing back then.”
  (Joel Anderson, 21:37)

• Personal Biggie moments: Matty C describes moving near Biggie and daily street encounters, painting Biggie as the beloved “mayor” of the neighborhood.

  “He seems like a sweetheart... the mayor of the block, Mary St. James for sure.”
  (Matty C & Joel Anderson, 24:11–24:48)

• Story of the “Unsigned Hype” column: Early encounters with industry players like Puffy (Sean Combs), and Biggie’s humor—he playfully confronted Matty over being called “fat” in the magazine.

5. Cheo Hodari Coker on Biggie’s Legacy and East/West Dynamics

• Context before Biggie’s death: Six months after Tupac’s death, with “East vs West” tensions officially cooled but unresolved on the street level.

  “Nobody had really checked to see if the beef was over... They didn’t really give that bitch a chance to breathe...”
  (Joel Anderson, 29:28)

• West Coast etiquette: Reggie Wright’s “call ahead” rule—crews should check in with locals for safety, raising questions about whether Puffy did so.

  “Before you go into someone else’s town... you call ahead as a show of respect...”
  (Christopher Johnson, 29:56)

• Going Back to Cali—double entendre: The song was a musical bridge but also alluded, intentionally or not, to earlier rap beefs (LL Cool J vs Kool Moe Dee).

  “Ten years earlier, this idea of ‘Going Back to Cali’... it was also part of this beef that had been raging.”
  (Christopher Johnson, 32:49)

• Biggie’s dreams and contradictions: Cheo details Biggie’s wish to balance stardom and a quiet family life, and the duality of his public and private personas.

  “The life that I’m living is the life that Biggie Smalls dreamed about. It had nothing to do with being the world’s biggest gangster... it was a completely different thing.”
  (Cheo Hodari Coker, 44:40)

• Tupac the bluesman, Biggie the jazzman: Coker distinguishes their artistry—Tupac’s emotional rawness vs. Biggie’s lyrical intricacy and versatility.

  “Tupac was a blues artist... whereas Biggie was more like a jazz artist... Bebop.”
  (Cheo Hodari Coker, 40:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "They're not corpses to us... we're trying to make them three dimensional."
  – Joel Anderson, 08:37

• “He would just be alone, which is part of what's so crazy about it...That just could not happen now at all, ever.”
  – Sean Holley on Tupac’s low-maintenance celebrity status, 12:45

• “His rhymes are fatter than he is.”
  – Matty C on an early unsigned hype column line; Biggie’s playful reaction, 24:57–25:12

• “He was the mayor of the block, Mary St. James for sure.”
  – Matty C on Biggie’s neighborhood status, 24:48

• “The life that I'm living is the life that Biggie Smalls dreamed about.”
  – Cheo Hodari Coker, reflecting on Biggie’s lost dreams of fatherhood and peace, 44:40

• “Tupac was a blues artist... Biggie was more like a jazz artist. Bebop.”
  – Cheo Hodari Coker, on their artistic approaches, 40:42

• "Nobody had really checked to see if the beef was over... They didn’t really give that bitch a chance to breathe."
  – Joel Anderson, on why going West might have been dangerous, 29:28

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:07–03:29 — Introduction; backgrounds of host (Joel Anderson) & producer (Christopher Johnson)
• 09:38–14:22 — Sean Holley details working with Tupac and the personal/public divide
• 15:02–18:38 — “Who Shot Ya?” context; role of hip-hop media and Source magazine
• 23:09–27:54 — Matty C’s encounters with Biggie; behind “Unsigned Hype” and first deals with Puff
• 28:22–34:40 — Cheo Hodari Coker on the run-up to Biggie’s death, East/West politics, and song context (“Going Back to Cali”)
• 35:04–45:03 — Biggie’s legacy, his artistry and complex persona, impact on culture, and aspirations for normalcy

Flow & Tone

The episode is conversational, blending reflective journaling and first-person testimony. The tone ranges from affectionate (the “love fest” between Anderson and Johnson) to mournful (Cheo Hodari Coker’s memories of Biggie’s ambitions), with a consistent focus on empathy and nuance.

Final Thoughts

This epilogue/bonus episode of Slow Burn serves both existing fans and newcomers, offering more than just the story of two unsolved murders. It explores the intimate, vulnerable, and transformative sides of Tupac and Biggie, told by those who witnessed their rise—and fall—up close. By prioritizing humanity over sensationalism, the series invites listeners to reimagine two icons not simply as legends or victims, but as fathers, friends, artists, and men navigating a turbulent era.