Decoder Ring: Reconsidering One of the “Worst” TV Shows of All Time

Summary

Decoder Ring: Reconsidering One of the “Worst” TV Shows of All Time – Detailed Summary

Introduction

In this episode of Decoder Ring, Slate Podcasts delves into the infamous television show Pink Lady and Jeff, widely regarded as one of the worst TV shows in history. Host Evan Chung, alongside co-host Willa Paskin, explores the creation, execution, and aftermath of this notorious variety show. Featuring insights from key figures involved, including Sid Croft and Jeff Altman, the episode provides a comprehensive look at why Pink Lady and Jeff failed spectacularly despite its high-profile production team and ambitious goals.

Background and Concept

The episode begins by setting the stage for Pink Lady and Jeff, a variety show that aimed to bring Japanese pop sensations Pink Lady to American television. Sid Croft, a seasoned producer, recounts how the opportunity arose:

Sid Croft [04:50]: "Oh, my God. They're, like, bigger than the Beatles in Japan. They play stadiums and they love them. He said, just let me fly them in. I'll never forget them."

Fred Silverman, the head of NBC programming, saw immense potential in Pink Lady, envisioning them as the next big variety show stars in the vein of established acts like Donny & Marie. The Croft brothers, known for their success with Donny & Marie, were tasked with adapting Pink Lady for American audiences.

Production Challenges

As Evan Chung narrates, numerous challenges surfaced early in the production process:

Jeff Altman [28:45]: "We kept saying to our managers, what can they do? And they go, oh, they can do anything. Whatever you write, they'll be able to do. And I said, now, wait a minute. You know, if we write open heart surgery, they can't do that."

A significant hurdle was the language barrier. Pink Lady members Keiko Masuda and Kaei Yoshida could not speak English fluently, which complicated scriptwriting and on-set communication.

Sid Croft [29:12]: "Do you understand a word that Sid or I Did you understand? And they shook their head no, they don't understand anything."

This led to a strained production environment where Pink Lady had to memorize lines phonetically without fully understanding them, impacting their performance quality.

Show Execution and Reception

Despite the production woes, Pink Lady and Jeff debuted on March 1, 1980. The show's format included traditional variety segments—singing, dancing, comedy sketches—partnered with an American co-host, Jeff Altman, aiming to blend Japanese pop flair with American variety traditions.

However, the show was met with rapid decline:

Sid Croft [53:13]: "It was awful."

Critics panned the show for its awkward integration of non-English-speaking hosts and clunky humor, leading to plummeting ratings. By episode five, the show was canceled, and the sixth episode was never aired.

Behind the Scenes Struggles

The episode highlights internal conflicts and pressures that exacerbated the show's failure:

• Guest Star Issues: Booking high-profile guests proved difficult, often resulting in last-minute changes that disrupted scripted segments.

Jeff Altman [42:10]: "So we had to literally write the scripts without stars. They would come into us and say, what's on show three? We gotta send the TV Guide listing in. We didn't know we would write something and hope we got like the time."

• Exhaustion and Cultural Disconnect: Pink Lady's members were overwhelmed by the demanding schedule and cultural differences, leading to emotional and physical strain.

Keiko Masuda [52:01]: "Pink lady had shot up in the world like a rocket, all the way to the moon. But there was another me, the me that was still there with her feet on the ground."

Legacy and Reflection

Pink Lady and Jeff is often cited as a cautionary tale in television history. Despite its failure, the show had a lasting impact on the variety show genre and paved the way for future international crossovers in entertainment.

Jeff Altman [54:12]: "I think that reputation is held by a lot of people who never saw the show and who just heard, oh, they put two girls who couldn't speak English on tv. That deserves to be the worst show ever. Just for that reason alone."

Evan Chung reflects on the show's failure, noting that it was not merely its content but the mismatch between Pink Lady's strengths and the imposed American variety format that led to its downfall.

Evan Chung [55:19]: "But audiences were not going to grade Pink lady on a curve. They expected them to be like standard American variety stars. But me and K were not standard American variety stars. And that's why NBC had brought them over, because they were huge Japanese pop stars, because Pink lady was exceptional. But then the network had forced them into the familiar American variety show host template. It was like NBC chickened out or completely missed the point of what had made Pink lady stars to begin with."

Reassessment and Modern Context

The episode concludes by reassessing Pink Lady and Jeff in the context of today's global entertainment landscape, where non-English-speaking artists have found substantial success internationally.

Keiko Masuda [58:34]: "Unfortunately, Japan took us disappearing at that time as something like us throwing Japan in the garbage bin."

Kaei Yoshida [57:47]: "Me and K had always dreamed of making it in America. It did have significance to them, but the United States is not the center of the cultural universe. It just wasn't worth it to them to continue, especially when their real careers, their Japanese careers, needed attention."

Evan Chung emphasizes that Pink Lady was ahead of its time, foreshadowing the global pop phenomena like BTS that have successfully navigated international markets by maintaining their cultural identities while appealing to global audiences.

Evan Chung [58:47]: "Hong Kong and South Korea, groups like BTS have achieved exactly the crossover dominance that NBC had hoped for. Me and K could continue to have solo careers in Japan, and they've reunited as Pink lady several times over the past four decades because audiences still want to see their synchronized dance moves, still want to hear their catchy confections. Because it doesn't matter where you're listening from, a perfect pop song is still a perfect pop song."

Conclusion

Pink Lady and Jeff serves as a historical example of the complexities involved in cross-cultural entertainment ventures. The episode "Decoder Ring: Reconsidering One of the “Worst” TV Shows of All Time" provides a nuanced exploration of the show's rise and fall, highlighting lessons on cultural sensitivity, creative autonomy, and the importance of aligning production formats with the unique strengths of international talents.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sid Croft [04:50]: "Oh, my God. They're, like, bigger than the Beatles in Japan. They play stadiums and they love them."
• Jeff Altman [28:45]: "We kept saying to our managers, what can they do? And they go, oh, they can do anything."
• Sid Croft [29:12]: "Do you understand a word that Sid or I Did you understand?"
• Keiko Masuda [52:01]: "Pink lady had shot up in the world like a rocket, all the way to the moon."
• Jeff Altman [54:12]: "That deserves to be the worst show ever."
• Evan Chung [55:19]: "Audiences were not going to grade Pink lady on a curve."
• Keiko Masuda [58:34]: "Japan took us disappearing at that time as something like us throwing Japan in the garbage bin."
• Evan Chung [58:47]: "Groups like BTS have achieved exactly the crossover dominance that NBC had hoped for."

Final Thoughts

Pink Lady and Jeff remains a fascinating case study in television history, illustrating both the potential and pitfalls of international entertainment collaborations. This episode of Decoder Ring not only recounts the show's troubled production but also invites listeners to consider how cultural expectations and production constraints can significantly influence the success or failure of media ventures.

Transcript

[Willa Paskin]

This podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You choose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Earlier this year, Decoder Ring's senior editor and producer Evan Chung got a chance to speak with a Hollywood legend.

[Evan Chung]

A legend by the name of Sid Croft.

[Sid Croft]

And if you don't know who I am, you all have a cell phone. Call your grandma. You should be talking to your grandma every day.

[Evan Chung]

Anyway, Sid is 95 years old now, and for virtually every one of those years, he's been an entertain ever since.

[Sid Croft]

I'm 10, I'm in this business. It's the only business I know.

[Willa Paskin]

As a little kid in the Depression, Sid fell in love with puppetry. And by the time he was a teenager, he was opening for Judy Garland in Liberace.

[Evan Chung]

And then starting in the late 1960s, he teamed up with his brother Marty to make a series of gonzo psychedelic children's TV shows starring some very large, very trippy puppets. Look at that tree's talking. Oh, everybody talks here on Living Island. HR puppets.

[Sid Croft]

We were the kings of Saturday morning. We were on all three networks, and we were so lucky because we didn't have 10 cents to do those shows, but we put everything up on the screen.

[Willa Paskin]

In 1975, Sid and Marty got a big break, the chance to move from Saturday mornings to primetime when they got a call from Fred Silverman, the head of programming at abc.

[Sid Croft]

And he said, I need a variety show. I just saw these two kids. And he said, would you just take a look at this piece of tape?

[Evan Chung]

The kids on the tape were a couple of siblings, a teenage brother and sister from Utah named Donny and Marie Osmond. And you and I are just like dad.

[Sid Croft]

And I looked at it. I immediately called him back and I said, oh, my God, Fred, you just sent me a piece of magic.

[Willa Paskin]

That rain, I like it.

[Evan Chung]

Donnie and Marie premiered on ABC in January 1976.

[Sid Croft]

Hi, I'm Donny.

[Jeff Altman]

And I'm Marie.

[Evan Chung]

Tonight our guests are Lee Majors, the Osmond brothers, Ice Vanities Fair concert majors, and special guest star Colin.

[Sid Croft]

It became the number one show on Friday night. It went through the roof.

[Willa Paskin]

Syd and Marty Croft had proven their primetime prowess, and it's what happened after. That's the reason Evan reached out to Sid in the first place.

[Evan Chung]

A few years after Donny and Marie, Fred Silverman, the ABC exec, called the Crofts up again. He'd recently moved over to NBC, and he'd just seen something intriguing on the evening news. Walter Cronkite talking about the latest imports from Japan.

[Walter Cronkite]

Cars, cameras, calculators, television sets. The Japanese now have packaged a new product, and it doesn't fit into any of those categories.

[Evan Chung]

Japan's economic power was on the rise at the time, and American manufacturers were growing anxious about the influx of consumer goods. But the uncategorizable product Cronkite was referring to was a pair of young women in glitzy mini dresses. Individually, their names are Me and K. Collectively, they are Pink lady, the most phenomenal success ever in Japanese show business. Me and Kei, the two members of Pink lady, sang bubbly disco fied pop in Japanese. And their performances were driving a mania like the nation had never seen before. There are two ladies who have turned.

[Keiko Masuda]

Their entire country of Japan into a screaming basket case.

[Evan Chung]

Pink lady has sold 17 million records. Fans range from the barely walking up through the bubblegum crowd. Nearly 300 Pink lady products are available.

[Walter Cronkite]

Here, including everything from toy makeup kits.

[Evan Chung]

To Pink lady hot dogs. There's a Pink Lady TV commercial at almost any time of day or night. This one for an air conditioner.

[Walter Cronkite]

That.

[Willa Paskin]

One for an automatic cockroach and bug eliminator.

[Evan Chung]

Fred Silverman was amazed by the images of enormous Japanese crowds screaming in ecstasy as the two women shimmied in unison. And he couldn't wait to share what he saw with the Krofft brothers.

[Sid Croft]

Oh, my God. They're, like, bigger than the Beatles in Japan. They play stadiums and they love them. He said, just let me fly them in. I'll never forget them.

[Evan Chung]

Because just imagine what could happen if the American public got infected with Pink lady fever, too. If they could bring them over, give them their own TV show on NBC. It could potentially be the biggest smash of Sid and Marty's careers. And Pink Ladies, too.

[Keiko Masuda]

I was being given an opportunity to go into American show business, so I wanted to do everything I could.

[Kaei Yoshida]

Because it was the height of the Pink lady boom. We thought we could make it in the birthplace of the entertainment industry.

[Evan Chung]

And so over the next year, me and K of Pink lady would fly to Hollywood, and Syd and Marty Croft would build them an American star vehicle, a variety show designed to take the Pink lady boom and turn it supersonic. But that isn't quite what happened.

[Sid Croft]

Can you imagine doing the worst show in the history of television? That's an honor.

[Willa Paskin]

This is Decoder Ring. I'M Willa Paskin.

[Evan Chung]

And I'm Evan Chung. In 1980, a TV show debuted called Pink lady and Jeff. It had the potential to bring something sensational to American airwaves. Instead, it became a punchline, a ratings disaster that left audiences completely bewildered. In the decades since, it's acquired legendary status as one of television's most notorious flops. A show that managed to kill off an entire genre. Or at least that's how it's been seen in America. But for the two women of Pink lady, the show was something else. And with their help, we're going to put this so called megaflop in the spotlight. To find out what this 45 year old show has to tell us about the demands of fame, pop cultural chauvinism and the limits of the American star machine. So today on Decoder, how does the biggest pop sensation in the world get lost in translation?

[Willa Paskin]

As the weather turns cooler, it's nice to look forward to holiday parties and curling up when it's cold outside and reaching for your favorite cozy sweater from Quint. I actually have a new cozy sweater from Quintessential. It's a cotton fisherman sweater that's perfect for the fall. Not too hot, not too cold, comfortable and yet also presentable. The whole sweater package. And for a nice price too. Quince is also known for their Mongolian cashmere sweaters from just $50. And it's not just that. All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That includes beautiful leather jackets, cotton cardigans, soft denim and and so much more. Get cozy in Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials. Go to quince.comdecoder for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com decoder to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com decoder have you heard about double nomics? It's okay if you haven't. It's extremely niche and practiced by Discover. Here's an example. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year. With cash back match. That means with Discover you could turn $150 cash back into $300. It pays to Discover. See [e-mail] creditcard By 1979, the Pink.

[Evan Chung]

Lady phenomenon had been going on for years. And yet hardly anybody in the United States knew who these women were. Keiko Masuda was absolutely determined to become a singer by the time she was three years old. So in middle School Kei signed up for theater club. The first meeting. They went around the room making introductions, and when the hour was up, she headed out onto her next class. But then she heard a voice echoing down the hallway, calling her name.

[Keiko Masuda]

It was this voice trailing off in the distance behind me. I turned around and saw a girl standing there who seemed like she was out of a fairy tale. Her hair in a long braid, books clutched to her chest.

[Evan Chung]

It was a kind of fairy tale encounter because this girl would end up changing K's life. This is me. She was also in the theater club. They would get cast as sisters in the school play. And as they talked, they discovered they shared the same visions of stardom.

[Kaei Yoshida]

That year, we became close to one another. We realized that our dreams for the future were the same, and both of us wanted to work hard for that future together.

[Evan Chung]

Me and K auditioned for the same music school in high school, and they both got in. Their singing voices were very different. K's is husky, while Mi's is high pitched and pure. The girls were different in a lot of ways, in the way they dressed and in their personalities. Even talking to them today, Mi comes across as a bit more formal and concise, while K is maybe warmer, a little scattered. But in high school, a music teacher took a look at them and saw that they complimented each other. And he made a suggestion. Why don't you form a duo?

[Keiko Masuda]

It's not for that teacher. There would be no Pink Lady.

[Evan Chung]

In March 1990. In 1976, after a couple of years performing together, Mi&K got a huge opportunity. A chance to sing on national TV on a talent show called A Star Is Born. They named themselves Cookie. They exuded a childlike innocence, wearing brightly colored bib overalls, harmonizing to a sweet, sunshiny pop song.

[Keiko Masuda]

The audience was completely full of people who had come to watch us. So we thought the best we could do is sing right to them with this strong feeling of Please, please let us win this.

[Evan Chung]

They had nothing to worry about. Immediately after the show ended, agents, artists from production companies were lining up making pitches to me and K.

[Kaei Yoshida]

One of the producers had this passionate vision of making us into an act that could even succeed in the world of American show business.

[Keiko Masuda]

It was really startling, and we definitely wanted to go with his company. I think meeting him was something fated, a gift from God.

[Evan Chung]

In those days, the music industry in Japan worked kind of like the old Hollywood studio system. Performers would enter a contract with one company, essentially becoming their employees. The production company would determine what they sang, where they sang, and how they looked. And so me and K were taken out of view and put in the hands of a team. A composer, a lyricist, a choreographer, a stylist, working together to prepare them for their professional debut. And when they finally reemerged six months later in another televised performance, they'd taken on a new name, Pink lady, and they were virtually unrecognizable.

[Keiko Masuda]

Everyone was shocked.

[Evan Chung]

Gone were the childlike overalls and the gentle sunshine pop. Now they were wearing miniskirts, doing a highly choreographed routine to up tempo disco. Me told me that this was actually the aesthetic they'd wanted all along.

[Kaei Yoshida]

Soul Train was on TV at the time, and I loved Soul Train. So we wanted to perform with that sort of soulful style that we saw on the show, like the artists who wore short shorts and boots with a lot of choreography. That was the vision we had to become disco queens.

[Evan Chung]

Disco queen. It didn't take long. Pink lady hit the top of the charts with their second single, SOS in December 1976. It was the first of nine consecutive number one singles. Their songs were catchy, charming, often a little goofy, and ahead of the disco curve in Japan. But it was how Pink lady dressed and moved that really set them apart. Nobody in Japanese pop had ever looked quite like Pink Lady. Take a song like ufo ufo. When they performed it on tv, they would step out in shiny tiaras shaped like alien antennae, along with sequined mini dresses, and go, go boots. And me and K danced side by side in precise, perfectly synchronized movements. That's how it was for every song. Every word had a gesture, every phrase a shimmy, looking like the Supremes leading an aerobics class. It was choreography, frankly, anybody could do. But that was the point. Their fans, especially young kids, bought instructional Pink lady booklets to learn how to dance right along with them. It was like the Macarena or the ymca, but with more steps. And for every song in their repertoire, there was no lack of opportunity to see them dance and sing. Because 1970s Japan was a nation obsessed with TV.

[Kaei Yoshida]

It was probably the era where TV was the most integrated into society. Every household had a TV now, and we were making fun music that everyone could watch and enjoy, from kids to their grandparents. So I think it was arriving at that moment that helped turn us into a phenomenon.

[Evan Chung]

Pink Lady's management company kept them on a grueling minute by minute schedule, shuffling from TV studio to TV studio. And it wasn't just for televised performances. Me and K got contracted out for an absurd number of commercials too.

[Kaei Yoshida]

So Pink lady was basically on TV every single day. And I think from there we really began to reach audiences.

[Evan Chung]

According to a magazine survey, the typical Japanese person came across an image of Pink lady an average of three to four times a day. There were three pink lady movies and even a 36 episode anime biopic. Me and Kei didn't see any of the money from the merchandising and commercials that all went to their management company. For the first year, all they were paid was a $250 a month stipend. That salary did at least get bumped up as Pink lady became by far Japan's best selling artist of 1977 and 1978. At some points they had the top three songs simultaneously. And then there were the concerts at Koraquan Stadium in July 1978. Pink lady played to an audience of more than 100,000 people, all chanting their name.

[Kaei Yoshida]

We were really pouring our entire souls into every single song, every single performance, working our very hardest, singing like our lives were on the line.

[Evan Chung]

In that crowd of 100,000 in Tokyo was an American radio impresario. And after the show he came to them with an offer. He said he could become their American manager and help break them overseas. Three months later, Pink lady headed into the studio to record their first English language single. A song Tailor made for American radio. Debuting here is the first American hit by the biggest selling Japanese recording act in the world in the past. For two and a half years, they've sold 17 million records. Here they are, two pretty girls from Tokyo known as Pink Lady. Their song Kiss in the Dark, Pink lady actually came from Shizuoka, not Tokyo. And they weren't girls, they were 21 year old women. But Kiss in the Dark entered the US charts in the summer of 1979, just barely cracking the top 40 wasn't much of a hit, but it was enough to wake the American media up to the fact that something phenomenal was happening in Japan.

[Willa Paskin]

Japan is sending a new export to this country. A recording by two singers who are unknown here. But in Japan you people are better known.

[Evan Chung]

And it wasn't long until Pink lady got word that they'd earned a new fan.

[Keiko Masuda]

The president of NBC happened to see us on tv. He thought we were really interesting, so he wanted to make a program with us.

[Evan Chung]

Me and K had dreamed of American success from the very beginning. From the moment they signed their first contract. They weren't expecting it so soon. But here it was.

[Kaei Yoshida]

Since we had all the momentum of the Pink lady boom behind us, I thought that now was our best and maybe only chance to give things a shot in America.

[Evan Chung]

Pink lady is ready for America, but is America ready for Pink Lady? We'll be right back.

[Willa Paskin]

This episode is brought to you by public.com Interest rates have fallen, but you can still lock in a 6% or higher yield with a bond [e-mail] that's a pretty big deal because when rates drop, so can the interest you earn on your investment. A bond account allows you to lock in a 6% or higher yield with a diversified portfolio of high yield and investment grade corporate bonds. So while other people are watching their returns shrink, you could be earning regular interest payments. But a yield is not locked in until you invest. So check it out. The good news is it only takes a couple of minutes to sign up at public.com lock in a 6% or higher yield with a bond account only at public.com forward/decoder brought to you by Public Investing member FINRA and SIPC. As of September 26, 2024, the average annualized yield to worst across the bond account is greater than 6%. Yield to worst is not guaranteed. Not an investment recommendation. All investing involves risk. Visit public.comdisclosures/bond account for more info. This episode is brought to you by Saks.com there's joy in finding the perfect gift for the ones you love, but it can be a challenge. Saks.com's holiday gift guide makes it easy. Easy. Whether you're surprising your hard to shop for sister with a Chloe bracelet bag or gifting your partner a memorable scent From Gucci, @saks.com there's holiday inspiration for every personality on your list. Saks.com does make it really easy to find inspiration. I was just on their site and like they say it is organized like a gift guide. They have all sorts of fun categories like cozy weekend vibes and weekend uniforms and kids pick that curate whole looks for you or your loved ones, Saks.com's handpicked guide can help take the stress out of the holidays. Add instant cheer to your home with some bright decor, or bundle up in a scarf coat from Totem to stay warm all season long. Find gifts guaranteed to bring joy to everyone this holiday [e-mail] that's saks.com for the ultimate holiday gift guide and all the shopping inspiration you need.

[Evan Chung]

When Fred Silverman, the head of NBC, learned about Pink lady, he immediately saw them as perfect material for a variety show. The variety show had been a reliable recipe for TV success for decades. First you find a charismatic host who can Sing and do comedy. Dean Martin or Carol Burnett. Or better yet, get two hosts. Sonny and Cher, the Smothers Brothers. Then the hosts fill the hour with playful banter and sketch comedy. You throw in some big name guest stars and you pack the stage with backup dancers for some spectacular musical set pieces. And few people knew how to pull off spectacle better than Syd and Marty Croft.

[Sid Croft]

The most important thing is grabbing that audience. You gotta set the stage. You gotta take them by the hand.

[Evan Chung]

Sid and his brother Marty, who died in 2023, had filled Donny and Marie with ice skaters and balloon drops and turned it into one of the last great variety show smashes. And now Fred Silverman was tasking them with doing it again for Pink Lady. And they'd have to make it quick.

[Sid Croft]

Variety needs to be done tomorrow night. When they want a show, they want it for next week. You know, it's like totally, totally insane.

[Evan Chung]

First off, they were going to need to hire a writing staff.

[Jeff Altman]

And what I discovered was you didn't really work for Sid and Marty. You married into the family.

[Evan Chung]

Mark Evanier had already written for a bunch of shows for the Crofts when the woman in charge of production for them called about a new project.

[Jeff Altman]

So we go to lunch and they brought a cup of tomato soup. And as we're eating the tomato soup, she says to me, well, you won't. You never heard of these girls, but there are two women from Japan who are very hot over there. And I said, oh, Pink Lady. And she dropped her spoon in the tomato soup and it spattered all over both of us. And she was, like, shocked. I knew who they were. They were on the walls of my office.

[Evan Chung]

It just so happened that his office mate was an American Japanophile and coincidentally, a huge Pink lady fan. So Mark knew they had appeal. He just had one question.

[Jeff Altman]

I said to her, do they speak English? And she says, we're not sure. If there was a moment in my life when I might have thought, let's take a different path here, that might have been it.

[Evan Chung]

Fred Silverman had told Sid and Marty not to worry. Pink Lady's managers had assured him, yes, they spoke English fine. So they didn't see the need to even hire someone who spoke Japanese to be on set. Still, the network figured it would be smart to pair Pink lady on screen with a more familiar feeling presence, an American co host they could play off of.

[Sid Croft]

Fred Silverman says, we got this comedian under contract, Jeff Altman.

[Walter Cronkite]

Well, I am Jeff Altman, master of my universe. And also I do some Work at a gas station downtown.

[Evan Chung]

Jeff is joking, which is what he does for a living. Though in 1979, he'd only been working the LA comedy club circuit for a few years.

[Walter Cronkite]

Oh, where are you guys from? Oh, that's great.

[Evan Chung]

His stand up set always began the same way.

[Walter Cronkite]

I mean, I came out on stage and would say, gee, any of you folks here have been at a Hollywood party recently and wanted to try this silly little party, little party gag, and bang. I would smash my head on a bar stool and down I would go. Hungry for laughs. You bet, folks.

[Evan Chung]

Jeff's routine also included a lot of impressions. Johnny Carson, Raymond Burr, Richard Nixon.

[Walter Cronkite]

Good evening, my fellow Americans. Let me.

[Evan Chung]

He was starting to get steady work on TV talk show appearances, a guest role on the Dukes of Hazzard, lots of commercials.

[Walter Cronkite]

You want a real good hamburger.

[Evan Chung]

And eventually a network holding deal.

[Walter Cronkite]

I was just on a list with, I guess, other guys to do something for NBC and the next thing I know, they said, well, let's hook this boy up with two Japanese girls for no damn reason. Yeah, I guess my name was first on the list being Altman.

[Evan Chung]

Actually, NBC was impressed with Jeff when he replaced a cast member last minute on another variety special. So the network showed him footage of Pink lady performing in front of enormous arena crowds in Japan and said, these are your new co stars.

[Walter Cronkite]

I watched them do that and I said, these girls are tremendous. If they could open these girls up to the western world, holy God, this show will be the most highly rated variety show in television history.

[Evan Chung]

Did you have a sense that this could be it? Like this could be your big break?

[Walter Cronkite]

Oh, absolutely. I was going to be on for an hour on primetime television and you thought to yourself, wow, this is going to be a different life.

[Evan Chung]

Now that the hosts were set and the show had become Pink lady, and Jeff, Mark Avenir and his writing staff had to get to work putting together the pilot. Though even at this point, nobody on the show had ever spoken with me or Kei.

[Jeff Altman]

We had to write it without meeting them because they were so hot in Japan that they were booked constantly. And then we had to negotiate how many days we'd have them. And they kept saying, can you do this show in two days? And we said, no, how about two weeks? And they'd clutch their hearts and go, oh no, God, we can't cancel all their concerts for two weeks. And I kept saying, if you can't get them here for four or five days to shoot a pilot, how are you going to get them here to do a series? If this thing gets picked up eventually.

[Evan Chung]

The Crofts reached an agreement for Pink lady to spend a little less than a week to rehearse and shoot the pilot. The writers would just have to have the script ready to go as soon as they arrived. The brief was pretty straightforward. A traditional variety show with me and K and Jeff doing comic monologues and sketches, song and dance numbers sprinkled throughout, and weekly guest stars. But without having met Pink Lady, Mark had no hints as to how to write for them.

[Jeff Altman]

We kept saying to our managers, what can they do? And they go, oh, they can do anything. Whatever you write, they'll be able to do. And I said, now, wait a minute. You know, if we write open heart surgery, they can't do that. No, no. They could learn that they're fine. So we wrote a script and we just made up a relationship because we had to.

[Walter Cronkite]

At some point, I am at my house and the script is delivered. Then there it is, we're off.

[Evan Chung]

The day Pink lady finally landed in la, they were taken straight from the airport to sit in Marty's offices where everybody was waiting.

[Sid Croft]

And these two gorgeous girls come in, and I'm talking to them, and Marty's talking to them.

[Kaei Yoshida]

They talked to us for about 10 minutes. I was trying to listen with all my might.

[Sid Croft]

All lasered in and they're bowing and bowing and bowing. And then I remember Marty finally said, do you understand a word that Sid or I Did you understand? And they shook their head no, they don't understand anything.

[Kaei Yoshida]

I couldn't speak English at all.

[Keiko Masuda]

In Japan. I had an English teacher who would come around with me. She'd try to teach me while we were driving in the car. I was so busy with work, I'd end up falling asleep in the middle of a lesson.

[Walter Cronkite]

They were very talented girls, no question about that. It's just that they couldn't speak English.

[Evan Chung]

In that moment when you suddenly realize, oh, they don't in fact speak English. Did something change in how you felt this show was going to go?

[Walter Cronkite]

Oh, absolutely. I remember having to change my underwear. That's a little joke.

[Jeff Altman]

We kind of looked at each other like everyone in the meeting looked at each other and went, oh, you mean we actually have to do this show? We're actually going to tape this thing.

[Evan Chung]

They were going to have to muddle through somehow. They wanted to rewrite the whole script to accommodate me and K, but there was no time. Only a couple of days. Me and K would have to memorize every line phonetically on their own, even as they were shooting. There was nobody else on set who spoke Japanese.

[Kaei Yoshida]

We got all sorts of directions, where to stand, when to start the take, and so on, but we didn't understand them. Then someone else would come to try to explain the directions to us, also in English, which we didn't understand either. So making the pilot was really rough.

[Jeff Altman]

We taped this thing, this 15 minute pilot, and I thought it was never going to sell. Everybody thought, you know, this is nice, we got paid for doing this pilot. But then never is never going to pick this up.

[Evan Chung]

Two weeks later, Mark was at an interview at Universal Studios trying to secure his next job.

[Jeff Altman]

On my way out, I stopped at a pay phone, checked by my voicemail at home and there was a message saying, we sold the show. And I went, what?

[Evan Chung]

It's possible Fred Silverman picked up the show because the pilot wasn't nearly as rough as Mark thought it was. But the other explanation is that NBC was in deep trouble. It was dead last in the ratings and coming close to bankruptcy. To save the network, Silverman had gone on a programming spree, commissioning nearly 60 pilots at once, aggressively tossing out the old nightly lineups to make room for dozens of new high concept shows in the hope that at least one of these big swings would pay off. Pink lady, at least, were proven moneymakers in Japan. So NBC put in an order for six episodes. They're hotter than the Odd Couple, sunnier than Sunny and sh. It's me and Key. It's K and Jeff. Pink Lady, a new series coming soon on NBC.

[Walter Cronkite]

You bet.

[Evan Chung]

The show was set to debut in March 1980. Me and Kay would be coming over to America for an extended period. This time, the pilot they'd already taped was just a demo. It would never air. For Sid Croft, that meant an opportunity to start from scratch, to solve the absurd predicament of having hosts who couldn't speak the language the show had to be in.

[Sid Croft]

You know, it's just, what am I going to do with them?

[Evan Chung]

And then he got an idea. Why not lean into the absurdity?

[Sid Croft]

I want to do a show that the next day at the water cooler, everybody says, holy shit, did you see that? What was that?

[Jeff Altman]

Just making it a show that people would watch because it was so bizarre.

[Sid Croft]

I just want to do something weird.

[Evan Chung]

But Fred Silverman at NBC did not want weird.

[Sid Croft]

He said, no. And so I said, fred, what is it that you want? He said, I want Donnie Marie. I said, I can't give you that.

[Jeff Altman]

We kept hearing the phrase traditional variety shows. This has got to be a traditional Variety show. And I kept saying, we don't have traditional variety show stars.

[Evan Chung]

But they figured they did at least have three stars. Me and K couldn't speak English, but they could sing and dance. Jeff couldn't sing or dance, but he could do comedy.

[Jeff Altman]

So between the three of them, we kind of had an amalgam variety show star.

[Evan Chung]

So nobody was feeling despondent once they got going. Yeah, it was an odd premise, but in the TV business having an odd premise, this wasn't an automatic death sentence. Mark remembers a time when everybody was chattering about CBS having the dumbest idea ever, a sitcom version of the Korean War satire mash.

[Jeff Altman]

And it turned out to be one of the most successful TV shows ever done. So you go, let's see where this goes. It might catch on.

[Sid Croft]

I had the best set design in it and costumes.

[Walter Cronkite]

It was a good cast crew. I walk into the studio, and away we go.

[Evan Chung]

While the Americans were revved up, scrambling to figure out how to make it work. From talking to me, I don't get the sense that Pink lady was feeling much pressure about the show doing well.

[Kaei Yoshida]

Since we debuted, we'd just been trying our best at everything. I didn't really think much about success. We were rising so high, and we just wanted to keep taking on new challenges one after the next. Going to America was just one of those challenges. So I don't think I was particularly nervous.

[Evan Chung]

Spending weeks learning and rehearsing. Each episode was a ton of work, no doubt, but it didn't compare to the craziness they were used to in Japan. Being the most famous people alive, making 16 appearances a day. Hollywood, in comparison, was a place they could relax.

[Kaei Yoshida]

In Japan, everyone knew us everywhere, and I couldn't exactly go out freely. But in America, where people didn't know me yet, I could go anywhere and it felt like I received my freedom. So on the contrary, it was a really wonderful thing that we weren't so known in America.

[Evan Chung]

But on March 1, 1980, millions of Americans were about to get a chance to learn who they were. Welcome to paint Lady. Do you remember the night that the first episode went on air?

[Walter Cronkite]

I do. My part would be, you know, come out at the beginning and do a monologue. This is amazing.

[Evan Chung]

I don't believe this.

[Walter Cronkite]

Here I am.

[Evan Chung]

Jeff opened things up with his usual barstool prop comedy.

[Walter Cronkite]

Get the show started and introduce the girls. So, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome me and Kay, the wonderful pink lady.

[Evan Chung]

And. And out they came in slinky pink dresses to do the first of several numbers. All of them in English for a.

[Kaei Yoshida]

One hour variety show. There were a lot of musical performances. We had to remember all the English lyrics and the choreography too.

[Evan Chung]

And then there was all the banter they had to memorize.

[Walter Cronkite]

Now you girls do speak English?

[Sid Croft]

Oh yes.

[Evan Chung]

We spent many, many hours in Japan learning. We wanted to speak perfect English when we got here.

[Walter Cronkite]

And you speak English too?

[Evan Chung]

Yes. Do you? Me and Kei at least had a Japanese interpreter on set at this point, but they still had to learn everything phonetically.

[Kaei Yoshida]

All we could do was memorize and memorize the pronunciation and try our best to form the words.

[Sid Croft]

But I like you already, Jeff.

[Evan Chung]

You are so, so handsome.

[Walter Cronkite]

You just get turned on by my sexy round eyes.

[Evan Chung]

Oh brother. For the comedy sketches, the writers tried to come up with scenarios where me and K had to say as little English as possible. Like with Jeff playing a televangelist healing me of Boogie Fever.

[Walter Cronkite]

She is influenced by the terrible disco demon. Yay. Can you hear me mama? Say baby.

[Evan Chung]

Baby. Yes, you've said it. Say baby again. Episode 2 guest starred the legendary comic Sid Caesar as me and K's kimono wearing dad getting them ready for a date. It all builds up to a big show stopping medley performed by Pink lady. And every episode would end the same way, with me and K in bikinis dragging Jeff in his tuxedo into a jacuzzi. We have Japanese custom at end of the day. Time to go into hot tub.

[Walter Cronkite]

Time to go into hot tub. No, I don't go into hot tub.

[Sid Croft]

And it was my idea is the hot tub at the end. I needed an ending. At least I got something weird in that good night.

[Walter Cronkite]

I remember watching the show and thinking to myself, man, this is pretty good. Everything looked like it was going to work, but I was wrong.

[Sid Croft]

It was like a nightmare.

[Jeff Altman]

Everything you could do wrong went wrong for us.

[Evan Chung]

That's after the break.

[Walter Cronkite]

While we're waiting, a word from Alpo. Hi, this is Ed McMahon. Boy, Alpo's good for your dog. Good for the whole family. Have you got it? Evan?

[Willa Paskin]

Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres. From memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers, from romance and well being to fiction. Audible's carefully curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best of the Year in audio entertainment. Like the star studded production of George Orwell's 1984, which both honors and reinvigorates the terrifying classic, it's one of the best original dramatizations out there. A romance that hits the spot, like Emily Henry's funny Story or heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. Listen to the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com decoder and discover all the year's best waiting for you. Managing finances can feel complicated, but it doesn't have to be Rocket Money simplifies everything Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place. If there are any you don't want, Rocket Money can help you cancel them with a few taps. Get alerts if bills increase, if there's unusual spending, or if you're close to going over a budget. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com decoder that's rocketmoney.com decoder rocketmoney.com decoder.

[Evan Chung]

According to head writer Mark Avenir, the problems on the set of Pink lady and Jeff started at the very beginning, and they had to do with something they should have realized would be a challenge in America. Pink lady were unknowns.

[Jeff Altman]

Nobody wanted to be on the show as a guest star. The client would come back and say, who the hell is Pink Lady? One of them actually said, why do they have a variety show and I don't? I'm not going to go on this show and I should be the star of this show, not them.

[Evan Chung]

You said you were going to get some big name stars.

[Sid Croft]

Yes.

[Evan Chung]

So far all we've seen is you.

[Jeff Altman]

So we had to literally write the scripts without stars. They would come into us and say, what's on show three? We gotta send the TV Guide listing in. We didn't know we would write something and hope we got like the time.

[Evan Chung]

When the writers were promised that Dionne Warwick was going to appear.

[Jeff Altman]

We go, okay. Then we'd write a sketch for Dionne Warwick.

[Willa Paskin]

The moment I wake.

[Evan Chung]

Two days later they were told, bad news. Dion dropped out. But hey buddy, EBSTON from the Beverly Hillbillies was available. Could they just plug him into their script? Whatcha cookin'granny, that's my spring tonic. Mmm. Got a dandy head on it this year.

[Jeff Altman]

And we'd say, no, we can't switch the Dionne Warwick sketch to Buddy Ev. That was a literal example. We did everything backwards.

[Evan Chung]

When guests were finally booked, it was often at the very last minute. They'd basically have to walk right on stage and perform the material cold. That's if they were there at all. Many of the so called musical guests were literally just music videos. Ultimately, Sid and Marty Croft would have to open up their Rolodexes and call in favors to book some old showbiz legends a little past their heyday.

[Walter Cronkite]

I mean, gosh, we had Roy Orbison, we had Jerry Lewis, Paul Lady. Working with Sid Caesar was one of the high points of my career.

[Evan Chung]

But the last minute bookings made the writers jobs very difficult. And it was even tougher for Pink lady, struggling to keep up with the script.

[Keiko Masuda]

I'd stay up all night memorizing lines if I needed to. And when I did sleep, the words would enter into my dreams. Plus, there were five new songs with choreography to learn every week. And the script kept changing. Every rehearsal, every day, we'd want to change a word.

[Jeff Altman]

And there was like a panic because it would destroy their performances. They had done it by memory and they couldn't unlearn it.

[Kaei Yoshida]

And it's like I had just finally remembered that line.

[Sid Croft]

You look so handsome in your tuxedo.

[Evan Chung]

Oh, how did you get off the wedding cake?

[Walter Cronkite]

A flu.

[Evan Chung]

Jeff, do you ever wear a robe?

[Walter Cronkite]

Robes? Well, sure, you know, like when I'm home, relax, or I'm, you know, not working.

[Evan Chung]

That's awesome. There were other behind the scenes problems. Clashes with the director, a battle with standards and practices, disastrous run throughs with the backup dancers, even a still unresolved fight with me and K's managers over whether the show was actually called Pink lady and Jeff or simply Pink Lady.

[Jeff Altman]

So I don't know what the title of the show officially was. Honest to God, we just used both titles interchangeably and nobody cared because nobody was watching.

[Evan Chung]

The show opened in 49th place in the ratings and dropped further with episode two. Critics did not like it. Whatever its title was, it was called A Dreary Exercise and an Abomination. One reviewer said, I've seen a lot of strange things on television, but I don't recall anything as mystifying as Pink lady and Jeff. In a letter to the LA Times a viewer wrote. On December 7, 1941, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. On August 6, 1945, the United States bombed Hiroshima. On March 1, 1980, NBC bombed the American TV public. Was the show really that bad? In the annals of Hollywood, there are myriad stories of a film or TV show that is reviled on its initial release. Then years later, it's rediscovered and reappraised as a flawed masterpiece. Pink lady and Jeff is not one of those shows. But some of the sketches do have a certain ragged, weird charm, like a surreal parody of celebrity roasts where Abraham Lincoln gets skewered by John Wilkes Booth, Jefferson Davis and Mary Todd Lincoln. I'm just kidding, baby. But if I were to describe our love life in one sentence, it would have to be foreplay.

[Keiko Masuda]

Was seven years ago.

[Evan Chung]

There are musical sequences I find delightful. Whenever Pink lady gets to sing and dance, it's very fun. And they have a great band behind them. At the same time, there's also corny jokes that fall flat, some real clunkers of scenes that come across as pretty half baked.

[Walter Cronkite]

Here he is. Anyway, welcome Japan's own Shiki Nakamoto.

[Evan Chung]

Like a sketch where a standup con on the Tonight show speaks Japanese.

[Walter Cronkite]

Mina san konichiwa.

[Evan Chung]

That's the entire joke, I guess. And there are other sketches where the jokes are more than just slapdash moments of Orientalist humor and leering exoticism. The cheesecake, hot tub, bikini scenes, and the yellow face in fake Japanese. It was a different era. This kind of stuff was all over tv. And yet today, a lot of the show veers into the cringeworthy. But that's looking through contemporary eyes. I don't get the sense that me or K were bothered by it at the time. And I really don't think that racial or sexist humor is what turned off audiences in 1980. Instead, what they couldn't handle was me and K speaking accented English. Tonight we have our guest star, Hugh Hefner, and Playmates. And our musical guest, Chip Twig.

[Walter Cronkite]

You know, they were pretty, they danced well, and they were fun to look at. But, you know, when they're mispronouncing some of the words, you know, people at home are sitting there going, hey, Martha, could you go out and get me another beer? I can't understand these girls.

[Evan Chung]

One critic wrote that not only had me and K not mastered English, they seemed to have scarcely confronted it. Another said that whoever thought they could host an American variety series had to have rocks in his head. It didn't matter if the writers were Trying to spin the language issues into comedy. Everyone asked us strange questions.

[Walter Cronkite]

Strange questions? Like what?

[Evan Chung]

Like what did you sign?

[Walter Cronkite]

Oh, oh, oh. They're talking about your horoscope.

[Evan Chung]

Horoscope.

[Willa Paskin]

Oh, horoscope.

[Evan Chung]

We should have told them we are Leos.

[Walter Cronkite]

Oh, you. You're Leos. I thought you girls were Sagittarians.

[Evan Chung]

We are, but we can't pronounce it. Watching these routines, I actually find it pretty remarkable what me and K managed to do, considering if you thrust me onto Japanese tv, I could only dream of doing so well. But audiences were not going to grade Pink lady on a curve. They expected them to be like standard American variety stars. But me and K were not standard American variety stars. And that's why NBC had brought them over, because they were huge Japanese pop stars, because Pink lady was exceptional. But then the network had forced them into the familiar American variety show host template. It was like NBC chickened out or completely missed the point of what had made Pink lady stars to begin with. They didn't even allow them to perform their own hit songs.

[Jeff Altman]

It was absolutely forbidden for them to sing in Japanese.

[Walter Cronkite]

They were just, you know, covering exclusively American music.

[Jeff Altman]

If we could have just let them go up there and sing the songs they knew and do the choreography they knew the kind of stuff that filled stadiums in Japan, it would have been on comfort level there.

[Evan Chung]

Under immense pressure from the producers and Jeff, the network eventually relented somewhat. Pink lady got to perform a total of two Japanese songs in some later episodes, their highlights of the whole series. But it was too late. The viewing audience had already turned on them.

[Jeff Altman]

I felt sorry for the Pink Lady. I felt sorry for B and K. They were being worked beyond their capabilities. We felt terrible putting them in this situation. But there was seemed to be no way to course correct this mistake that.

[Evan Chung]

Had been made as the weeks went on. Being in America seemed to be having an effect on me and Kay.

[Jeff Altman]

They were on permanent jet lag. Every moment they were in America, they were literally, and I'm not conceptually falling asleep in the rehearsal hall.

[Walter Cronkite]

Just being in a studio in America for 12 hours a day trying to learn English was depressing. And so from time to time you would see Kay crying. It was rough.

[Evan Chung]

Kay told me she was upset. But it wasn't simple homesickness or the condescending jokes or the workload. Again, to Pink Lady, Hollywood was practically a quiet refuge in comparison to the frenzy of Japanese stardom. And that was the issue. Being in America gave K an opportunity to pause and reflect on the entirety of the past three years of fame, which had been going full speed since she was a teenager. And it was finally dawning on her just how unrelenting and unsustainable it all was.

[Keiko Masuda]

Pink lady had shot up in the world like a rocket, all the way to the moon. But there was another me, the me that was still there with her feet on the ground. And it was like I had a bird's eye view of her or something. Every time I stood on stage, it felt like my heart was going to leap out of my mouth and I was going to forget the words, screw up the choreography. It was an intense way to live. I didn't have time to eat or sleep. It was concert after concert. It was really, I don't know, my nerves just got ground down over time.

[Evan Chung]

Kay had virtually no control over her career. Pink Lady's production company decided everything and pocketed the bulk of the millions in revenue they generated. She just had to perform where she was told in exchange for a salary. That's how the Japanese music industry worked. K had been trying to tell her management that things needed to improve. Her schedule, her life. But nothing was getting better. Meanwhile, the numbers for Pink lady and Jeff were getting worse and worse. The show had dropped to 66th place out of 69 in the ratings.

[Walter Cronkite]

And when I saw them start to plummet, you knew something was not right.

[Sid Croft]

It was awful.

[Evan Chung]

Producer Sid Croft again.

[Sid Croft]

It was, you know, it was just a show that didn't have an edge to it or anything.

[Evan Chung]

So how did Pink lady and Jeff come to an end then?

[Sid Croft]

Well, they got canceled on the fifth show.

[Walter Cronkite]

We got the call. I'm sorry, but we've canceled your show. See ya.

[Evan Chung]

NBC didn't even bother airing the sixth episode, which they'd already taped.

[Walter Cronkite]

You know, it was just, it was awful.

[Evan Chung]

Was there ever a moment of you feeling like this was your chance and it was blown, like you'll never get this opportunity again?

[Walter Cronkite]

Yes, I did. I thought to myself, here I am starring in an hour variety show on a network. I mean, surely fame is headed my way. Well, it wasn't on long enough for that to have happened. And, you know, there were no offers coming, coming in after that.

[Evan Chung]

Jeff never got the opportunity to host his own show again. But he did make his way back to tv, becoming a fixture on the late night talk circuit. His career recovered, but the reputation of Pink lady and Jeff never did. In 2002, TV Guide featured it as one of the 50 worst shows in television history.

[Sid Croft]

You know, I'm proud of that.

[Evan Chung]

Do you think that's fair. Do you think it's one of the worst television shows of all time?

[Sid Croft]

Yeah.

[Evan Chung]

You do?

[Sid Croft]

Well, can you name some others?

[Jeff Altman]

Well, I think that reputation is held by a lot of people who never saw the show and who just heard, oh, they put two girls who couldn't speak English on tv. That deserves to be the worst show ever. Just for that reason alone.

[Evan Chung]

Pink lady and Jeff isn't good, but being cringy or corny and dated doesn't actually make it different from most other variety shows of the era, including the successful ones, including Donnie and Marie. A few weeks ago, I made a birdcage disappear. Donnie's very good at making things disappear.

[Jeff Altman]

Like my hairspray and my nail file.

[Evan Chung]

And where's my comb?

[Sid Croft]

Cute Marie.

[Evan Chung]

And I think people in 1980 were picking up on that. There's a reason that after the failure of Pink lady and Jeff, the entire genre of the variety show essentially went extinct. Not only was NBC imposing a format on Pink lady that didn't work for them, it was a format that audiences didn't want at all anymore.

[Walter Cronkite]

I didn't see the change in television that was happening between SNL and Letterman. There was a completely different way of looking at television, kind of laughing at the old standards that had come before. And the variety show was being left, I think, in the dust. It just had run its course.

[Evan Chung]

Snl, which was also on NBC, even parodied Pink lady and Jeff, bizarrely replacing Jeff Altman with the astronomer Carl Sagan.

[Willa Paskin]

Now this Big Bang theory of the.

[Evan Chung]

Universe is the one that's most popular with scientists right now. Oh yes, Carl, we have that in Japan.

[Walter Cronkite]

You do?

[Evan Chung]

Sure. That's what happens when a bullet train hits a Datsun. Well, maybe SNL hasn't aged that well either. I asked me and K about what went wrong with Pink lady and Jeff and their answers really surprised me. Both of them seemed genuinely unaware that the show has a bad reputation at all.

[Keiko Masuda]

I don't really know the answer to that. I heard that the ratings were really good in America. So when you're saying that it didn't become a big hit, is that different from the TV ratings?

[Kaei Yoshida]

Yeah, I hadn't heard anything about the reception being poor.

[Evan Chung]

I don't think the explanation for this is that they're naive or sheltered. I mean, if they'd had a flop in Japan, they would have known. It's that their American TV show was a curiosity for them, a one time challenge they'd pulled off and now they were as ready to move on from it as NBC, in fact, me has a very different understanding of how the show came to an end.

[Kaei Yoshida]

Well, we were the ones who canceled the show. We weren't told that the show was canceled. We decided against doing more episodes. So I think the show was a success.

[Evan Chung]

Me and K had always dreamed of making it in America. It did have significance to them, but the United States is not the center of the cultural universe. It just wasn't worth it to them to continue, especially when their real careers, their Japanese careers, needed attention. The truth is that the Pink lady boom in Japan had already peaked before they even left for America. They'd never been critical darlings, but now their singles were charting lower and lower. They got caught in a scandal involving a declined invitation to an important televised event, and the media was turning against them as a result. All of this was on their minds when they were preoccupied on set. And when they returned to Japan, the decline accelerated.

[Kaei Yoshida]

Unfortunately, Japan took us disappearing at that time as something like us throwing Japan in the garbage bin. When we got back, the bashing and criticism of Pink lady was really intense.

[Evan Chung]

It all took its toll. Five months after the Pink lady and Jeff show ended, me and K announced their breakup. They closed things out with one final concert in the rain in March 1980. If she could do it all over again, Kei would have loved to wait to come to America after learning English better. But she also loves the Japanese language, loves its beauty. And she sees no reason why music can't reach people even when they don't understand the words. And K's right. It turns out that Pink lady was decades ahead of its time. Today, the English language does not hold a monopoly on global pop stardom. There is an enormous audience worldwide for entertainment. From Japan and Hong Kong and South Korea, groups like BTS have achieved exactly the crossover dominance that NBC had hoped for. Me and K could continue to have solo careers in Japan, and they've reunited as Pink lady several times over the past four decades because audiences still want to see their synchronized dance moves, still want to hear their catchy confections. Because it doesn't matter where you're listening from, a perfect pop song is still a perfect pop song. This is Decoder Ring. I'm Evan Chung.

[Willa Paskin]

And I'm Willa Paskin. There's so much more we could tell you about Pink lady that we didn't have time for. So luckily, we have a special decodering bonus episode for Slate plus members that's going to do just that. It's a conversation ever had with Patrick Galbraith. An anthropologist based in Tokyo who studies what's known as Japanese idol culture. Pink lady helped define that culture, and it's still going strong. They're a fascinating category of Japanese celebrity that's been around since the 1960s, and though idols have no exact Western equivalent, they have an extraordinary resonance with contemporary influencers and fan culture.

[Evan Chung]

Idols are not synonymous with pop stars because an idol is supposed to be what's called toshindai. It's supposed to be human sized. So the human sized performer becomes approachable, relatable, accessible. They're kind of based on this principle that they appeal directly to the audience for support if you like my song, if you like my band, please support me. Buy the cd. It's a phenomenal on that's marked by intimacy.

[Willa Paskin]

You can listen to this fascinating conversation by signing up for Slate Plus. If you aren't already a Slate plus member, you can subscribe now on Apple Podcasts by clicking Try Free at the top of the Decoder Ring show page or visit slate.comdecoder/ to get access wherever you listen. We're going to be releasing bonus episodes regularly, including answers to mail bag questions, so please sign up now. Don't forget, Slate plus members also get to listen to our show and every other Slate podcast without any ads, and you get unlimited access to Slate's website. Again, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts by clicking Try free or visit slate.comdecoderplus to sign up. If you have any cultural mysteries you want us to decode, please email us at Decodering this episode was written and produced by Evan Chung. It was edited by me. Our translator was Eric Margolis. Decodering is produced by me, Evan, Max Friedman, and Katie Shepard, with help from Sophie Codner. Derek John is Executive producer. Merrick Jacob is Senior Technical Director. Special thanks to Kelly Killian, Lorne Froman, Roby Goran, Michael Lloyd, Shayna Roth, Karen Fjell, Cole Del Charco, and Hannah Aris. If you haven't yet, please subscribe and rate our feed in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And even better, tell your friends. We'll see you in two weeks.

[Walter Cronkite]

Quick Story so I'm sitting in Marty Croft's office and I don't know how he got into the studio. A guy walks into his office and says, you know, put me on the show, put me on the show. I do great bird impressions. And Marty says, we just don't need any people who do bird impressions. And the guy said, you don't understand. I do tremendous bird impressions I'm really, really terrific at this. And Marty said to him, well, I don't need anybody who does bird impressions. I'm sorry. And the guy says, listen, you don't understand, Mr. Croft. I do the best bird impressions in the world. And Marty said, I'm sorry, I can't help you. The guy said, okay, and flew out the window.

[Willa Paskin]

This episode is brought to you by Saks.com there's joy in finding the perfect gift for the ones you love, but it can be a challenge. Saks.com's holiday gift guide makes it easy Whether you're surprising your hard to shop for sister with a Chloe bracelet bag or gifting your partner a memorable scent From Gucci, @saks.com there's holiday inspiration for every personality on your list. Saks.com does make it really easy to find inspiration. I was just on their site and like they say, it is organized like a gift guide. They have all sorts of fun categories like cozy weekend vibes and weekend uniforms and kids pick that curate whole looks for you or your loved ones. Saks.com's hand pick guide can help take the stress out of the holidays, Add instant cheer to your home with some bright decor, or bundle up in a scarf coat from Totem to stay warm all season long. Find gifts guaranteed to bring joy to everyone this holiday [e-mail] that's saks.com for the ultimate holiday gift guide and all the shopping inspiration you need.

[Evan Chung]

Former President Donald Trump rewrote the rules of how the American justice system treats our nation's most powerful people. Hello, it's Andrea Bernstein. I'm the host of the Law According to Trump, a special series from Slate Plus.

[Willa Paskin]

Long before the Supreme Court granted presidential.

[Evan Chung]

Immunity, Donald Trump created a blueprint for shielding himself from legal accountability on everything from taxes to fraud to discrimination. Listen as we explore Trump's history of bending the law to his will. Check out the Law According to Trump wherever you get your podcasts.