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Slow Burn
Gays Against Briggs | Tribeca Festival Live Show
01:35:02
Host Christina Cauterucci interviews special guests at the 2024 Tribeca Festival.
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, listeners, we've got one more treat for you before we wrap up this season of Slow Burn. Gays Against Briggs. A few weeks ago, I taped a live Slow Burn show at the Tribeca Festival in New York, featuring interviews with four special guests. Eric Marcus, the host of the podcast Making gay history, Deray McKesson, the civil rights activist and host of Pod Save the People, filmmaker Sam Federation, and comedian and cabaret artist Esther Falak. Esther also did a spectacular comedy set and musical performance for us. I had the best time hosting this show. My guests and I talked through the past, present, and future of LGBTQ life in conversations that were sometimes sobering, sometimes hilarious, often both. I think you'll really enjoy it. Thanks for listening. Hello, and welcome to the Tribeca Festival.
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B
We are here today for this exclusive.
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A
Live recording of season nine of Slow.
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B
Burn, Gays Against Briggs.
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A
Slow Burn is the landmark podcast from.
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B
Slate that seems to get better and better with every season that goes by. Apple Podcasts named it the the best.
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A
Podcast of the year in 2022.
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B
And it's Beck, with this extraordinary season that explores the Briggs Initiative. So please help me give a big round of applause for Slow Burn.
- [01:39]
A
Thank you so much, and thank you, Davey, for that amazing introduction. Happy Pride, everyone. It's so great to see you. Thanks for coming. I feel like I gave birth to a child. I've never actually given birth to a child. That's probably really insulting to people who have, but this project means so, so much to me, and it's amazing to actually see all of your faces right now, because the thing about a podcast is when it comes out, you know that allegedly people are listening to it, but, like, you can't hear them laugh at your jokes or clap for you. And so it's amazing to have this captive audience who I hope will exactly that tonight. The Briggs Initiative, as Davey said, was the ballot initiative that would have banned gay people and people who advocated for gay rights from California public schools. It also was the first statewide vote on gay rights, and an unprecedented movement of queer people rose up in an attempt to defeat it. They worked alongside each other across deep differences in a way that hadn't been done before. It really was kind of the beginning of this organized, politically sophisticated gay rights movement that we know today. Our first episode came out about three weeks ago, and I'm so excited to have this incredible lineup of guests to talk about some of the themes of the podcast and bring them to today. So first I'll chat with Eric Marcus, the host of Making Gay History, another podcast you should absolutely download, if you haven't already. We're on going to talk about what happened after the events I cover in Slow Burn and where it all kind of fits into the broader arc of queer history. Then we'll have civil rights activist, author, and fellow podcast host Deray McKesson for a conversation about the themes of police violence in Slow Burn and activism in today's political climate. We also have director Sam Feder, the director and producer of the fantastic documentary Disclosure. We'll talk about trans and queer visibility, the good side and the bad. And we're going to close with a set from cabaret comedienne Esther Fallock. I saw Esther for the first time on Instagram last year and have just been obsessed ever since. So I'm really excited for Esther to sing a little song, and then we'll chat about how, in the grand queer tradition, she makes humor and joy from hardship. What a Pride Month miracle that I get to talk to all of these people in one day. I'm so, so excited about it. So let's get into it. First up, we have Eric Marcus. Eric is the founder and host of Making Gay History. Eric's podcast uses his own archives of interviews with queer people to bring LGBTQ history to life through the voices of people who lived it.
- [04:39]
C
He.
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A
He's also a founding board member of the American LGBTQ Museum and the author or co author of a dozen books, including Breaking the the number one New York Times bestselling autobiography of Olympic diving champion Greg Louganis. Please welcome Eric Marcus.
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D
Thank you so much. This series is extraordinary.
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A
Thank you.
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D
And I. I joined Slate just to listen to the whole series.
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A
You joined Slate Plus. You joined Slate Plus.
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D
I have to hear the. I have to hear the whole series.
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E
Thank you so much.
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A
I would have sent you the episodes, but I'm so glad that we got a member out of you.
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D
I didn't have time to email you to ask you to get them to me because I just. I was hooked. And it's so beautifully produced. It's extraordinary. I've not heard anything like it before, and it brought to life a period of history that's part of my history. So it was. I had to turn it off a couple of times.
- [05:36]
A
Thank you so much.
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D
Oh, it was just. Just fantastic. Congratulations.
- [05:39]
A
We could Talk for another 20 minutes all about how great the podcast is, but we'll get. We'll move on. So, you know, season 12 of your podcast is called Coming of age in the 1970s, which you were coming of age kind of right alongside the gay rights movement. And the story of the Briggs Initiative really begins in 1977 with Anita Bryant, whose successful anti gay campaign in Florida inspired John Briggs. You were watching Anita Bryant win, too. How did that affect you?
- [06:09]
D
Oh, Anita Bryant inspired me to come out to my mother, as she did many people. It wasn't intentional, but I remember she was on the COVID of Time or Newsweek, and I was home from college and finished my freshman year, and I was 18, and I was livid. And I remember being at lunch going on about Anita Bryant and how horrible she was. And my mother said, why are you so concerned about that? And I didn't mean to drop a clue. But it was soon after that I was heading to visit a friend one evening, and my mother asked how my friend was doing. How's Richard doing? I said, he seems to be pretty depressed. I think he might be gay. And she said, why are you so casual about it? And then she, she got pale and she said, maybe because you are, too. And I did the absolute wrong thing. I said, see you later, Ma. Long story short, I got home that night. I tried crawling up the stairs so she wouldn't hear me. I turned off the car, rolled down the driveway, and then crawled up the stairs. And she heard, heard me, and she asked to talk to me. I was so angry that this person, Anita Bryan, who sang the Florida Orange Juice Song, was saying such terrible things about me. It felt like she was talking about me. And I was aware of the Briggs Initiative, but not nearly as aware as I was of Anita Bryant, because it was California. Long way from New York.
- [07:44]
A
Yeah. What did it feel like to be just coming out at this time of this intense, now nationwide backlash against gay people's sort of rising visibility and power?
- [07:58]
D
It did to me what it did to so many people. It made me insanely angry. I didn't get involved in any kind of activist way because I couldn't cope with protests. Still to this day, angry groups of people, my parents were very angry people. I, I, it upset me. So I watched from the sidelines. I read about what was going on and ultimately in my career around, wound up writing about that era. So I interviewed people who were very involved during that time. I spent the summer of 1978 in Washington, D.C. and as I talk about in the podcast, I had a boyfriend who worked at the White House for Jimmy Carter and met Mitch Costanza, who organized the first meeting at the White House in 1977. She didn't know. When I ran into her at the White House, I, of course, gushed about how fantastic it was that she arranged this first meeting of gay leadership at the White House. She was closeted. I knew she was gay. And she couldn't get away from me fast enough because I was this kid who was so excited to meet a hero.
- [09:08]
A
Wow. When we spoke on the phone a couple weeks ago, you talked about this divide within the gay community at the time. And in episode four of Slow Burn, Gays Against Briggs, which just came out yesterday, you know, we talk about a lot of the different divides within the movement. There were political divides. There was intense racism and antagonism against trans and gender non conforming people. There were, as you point out, a generational divide where a lot of older gays looked at this queer liberation movement and were kind of terrified by it.
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D
They were terrified. I remember my junior high school choir teacher became a friend. He was gay and closeted. And when I told him I was gonna tell my mother, he urged me not to. I worked for the head of the slide library at Vassar College, the art slide library. He was a closeted gay man in his 40s. The Dean of admissions was a closeted gay man in his late thirt. The president of the college was a closeted lesbian. They were so frightened of people my age because they had lived by a set of rules that worked for them. They could never have gotten their jobs. And so here we are, a new generation, and we're saying, come out and it's okay to be out. And it wasn't okay for them. It really wasn't. And in some ways it wasn't okay for us. We weren't aware of what limitations there might be in our lives. When I went to work for CBS News in 1988, I'd hoped eventually to be on the other side of the camera and was told in a meeting with an executive who recruited talent. I requested the meeting. I was told that they would never put an openly gay person on camera. As a News correspondent in 1988.
- [10:48]
A
Yeah. I mean, thinking about sort of the coming out narratives today, it feels a little. It can feel like cutesy and sanitized. And back then, coming out was. Wasn't just incredibly difficult. I mean, there were people who were scared that if gay people came out, it would affect them. Even if they weren't out, people would be suspicious of them.
- [11:06]
D
That's right. Two women living together in the olden days, people weren't suspicious. And I'm thinking back now to the 1950s and the antagonism of older lesbians towards some of the younger women. Who were organizing around the Daughters of Belides in 1955. They were afraid that the women who are the early activists would bring attention to them and would expose them, and they couldn't continue to fly under the radar. It was when you said divide about what was going ON during the 1970s, I was going to jump in and say divide. It's like divides. I've had many young people say to me over the years, why can't we be all work together the way we did in the old days? And I think, what old days are you talking about? LGBTQ people have never. I mean, on rare occasion, we've unified. As we learned in your podcast during the. The anti gay campaign of the 1970s around AIDS. There are times when we have all come together, but sexual orientation, gender identity is. It's a point of connection. But it's like saying all straight people should get along with each other.
- [12:12]
B
They should, but they should.
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D
They should. They should, but they don't. And why should we? You know, and we have different. And why should we even understand each other? I mean, we try, but there are so many differences. I remember one of the women I interviewed talked about in the 1960s, Barbara Giddings, one of my favorite activists, she said we were very. She may have been another person, but I think it was Barbara who said this. They were very unhappy with the men's bathroom habits because the men were getting arrested for having sex in bathrooms, and the lesbians felt it reflected badly on them, and they couldn't understand why anyone would do such a thing. So. Yeah, why would anyone be such a thing? Yeah.
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A
And that's like, in order to work together as activists, you have to get over that hump, you know, to that.
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D
Hump of understanding and accept that you might not understand.
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A
Yeah.
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D
You know, but that you have a common goal and you have a common enemy. And oddly, the common enemy was Briggs and Bryant. Did you know that Anita Bryant was at a conference at the same time in Washington? A conservative conference, during the first March on Washington.
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A
Wow.
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D
In 1979.
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A
Wow.
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D
Yeah.
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A
Speaking of the March on Washington of 1979, you know, this is something that I didn't get to in the podcast because they only Let me do seven episodes. I would have done, you know, 14. But the March on Washington came just a few months after the riots, after the conviction of Harvey Milk's killer and the year before. Harvey Milk had called for this march in his Gay Freedom Day speech. But at that point, he was kind of alone, right?
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D
He was. They had already had a conference prior to that. And now I'm going to. I have my credit sheet.
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A
Amazing.
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D
It turns out the timeline for that. From that first 1979 march was so complicated. And this is a distillation of a.
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A
We don't do simple.
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D
Yeah. There was a. In the summer of 1977, there was a group formed in New York. Called the Coalition for Lesbian and Gay Rights. They brought together 50 organizations to respond to Anita Bryant. And then in July 77, there was a National Gay Leadership Conference in Denver. And that's where they met to decide whether or not to have a national march. And the national organizations were against it. Because this is 1977. The National Organizations were a few years old. They were fledgling. They didn't have budgets. And they were afraid. They didn't have much in the way of money. They were afraid they couldn't raise the money for what it would cost to have the march. So they said, forget it. And it was Harvey Milk who gave a speech later saying, we have to do this. And he formed a group in San Francisco, but that could go nowhere. And then when he was assassinated, there was a meeting happening in New York. Of the Coalition for Lesbian and Gay Rights. And one of the people who was there, Joyce Hunter, said, we have to do this. We have to do this for Harvey. And Mayor Moscone, who was murdered as well. So she also noted something really interesting. That the Briggs Initiative actually undercut the momentum for a march. Because it was a success.
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A
Oh, wow. So people thought, it's not a big deal. We got this.
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D
We don't need this. Right, Exactly. We don't need this. But they went ahead with it anyway. So In February of 1979, they had a national conference in Philadelphia on whether to march. And there was so much conflict.
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A
You have so much good audio in your episode on this. Of people. People standing up at this convention and saying, you know, their reasons for why they thought maybe we shouldn't have a march. I remember there was a guy from Texas saying, it's very different to be gay in Texas than it is in Washington, D.C. we need more time to come out to ourselves and to our own communities. Like, we're not ready for this.
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D
So many of them felt it was premature. They thought that it would hurt the efforts to pass gay rights bills, which.
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A
Lol. We didn't actually pass one of those.
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B
Until, like, years later, really soon ago.
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D
There was one woman who spoke, though, who said, the women have already. The lesbians here have already endorsed a march. And they were waiting for the men to come on board. So it was the women who were actually braver about this. But it wound up being this small group of people in their 20s who organized this national march. And they didn't really get started until the organizing meeting in July of 1979. So imagine July of 79, the march is in October, and they pulled it together. May I read you the list of the five main demands?
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A
Yes, please. I would love to see how many we've met since then.
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D
Pass a comprehensive lesbian gay rights bill in Congress. Issue a presidential executive order banning discrimination based on sexual orientation in the federal government, the military, and federally contracted private employment. I think we do have that. Repeal all anti lesbian gay laws. Well, end discrimination in lesbian mother and gay father custody cases. Protect lesbian and gay youth from any laws which are used to discriminate, oppress and or harass them in their homes, schools, jobs and social environments. Those are good goals.
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A
They're really good demands.
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D
Really good goals. But they didn't know if people were going to show up.
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A
And did they?
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D
They did. They did. 100,000 people from across the country and they had a pre conference. It was a third world. Where is that?
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A
That's all right.
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D
So there was a conference of people who had been marginalized in society in general and also in the LGBTQ civil rights movement, African Americans, Asians, Native Americans. They had a three day conference prior to the March on Washington. And what, what we don't remember because really what happened in 79 at the March was wiped away by the AIDS crisis that came soon after. People came from all over the country and they went home and formed organizations or they met at the March on Washington. They were local chapters like pflag, Parents Friends and Families of Lesbians and Gays. That's called something else now, but it's pflag. That's when it became a national organization. So it was key. That march was key for bringing people together from all over the country. And it was the largest single gathering of gay and lesbian people, LGBTQ people, we say today ever, in the history of the world. And can you imagine coming from Texas or places where you didn't know anyone who was gay or. Very few. And here you are at this march. I went to later marches. I didn't go to the march on 79. It's a long story and it is incredible to be on a train going to Washington and everybody, everybody is LGBTQ or on the train platform in Washington, D.C. in the Metro and people cheer. The cheer starts at one end of the platform and goes to the other. It's just incredible.
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A
Beautiful part in your episode about this, about how there was a train, I think, from San Francisco, the Freedom Train.
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D
Yes. Robin Tyler organized it.
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A
Oh, yeah. It would stop at places where, you know, maybe people couldn't get to D.C. for the march, but when the train stopped in their town, they would get to have their own, you know, event and moment of excitement and solidarity.
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D
There's a piece of tape that we have in the episode where you hear people chanting, freedom train. Freedom train. And some of it sounds so archaic, but it's almost a half a century ago. I guess that makes me archaic too. But the idea was so thrilling and it was a success.
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A
I mean, so both of us have spent a lot of time now, you much more than I have, sort of deep in these archives listening to this old tape. What do you get out of it?
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D
Well, so many of the. It's my archive. So these are interviews that I spent that I did. Most of the. I should say most of the episodes we've done are from interviews that I did more than 35 years ago. And it always takes me back in time to hear those voices. Going into the archives and hearing tape, as in your podcast, it's so evocative. The accents are different, the ways in which people talk is different. And the audio brings to life these voices, bring to life that history in a way that reading about it can't. What I so loved about your series was that I was transported back in time. For me, it's a time I live through for people who didn't live through it. It's a way of bringing that period of history to life that. That really nothing else can.
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A
Yeah. When you look back at, you know, queer history as it's been lived, what place does the fight against the Briggs Initiative hold? What did it do? What was its legacy?
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D
It showed that we could win. It was really important. It was important in the moment. Most people have no idea that it ever happened now, but what it did for the movement then was to show that in the face of a backlash, and this was the first national backlash. So this had never happened before. And what people were watching was as gay rights bills, these brand new gay rights bills were getting repealed across the country and they get to the west coast. And the question was, was anyone going to be able to stop it? So it demonstrated that gay people organizing could stop the anti gay backlash. And I think that for people listening to your series now, it should give them hope and inspiration that the current backlash, which is there's already a backlash to the current backlash, but that this has been done before and that it was done with far fewer resources, without the kind of national infrastructure that we have now, without the kind of money that we have now, without Congress, people and other and celebrities who are out of the closet to help, that what happened then should inform what is happening now in inspiring people and giving people hope and giving them also a roadmap. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. This has happened before. I know there are a lot of young people who wind up very. Who have wound up very dispirited over what's happening now. And I'm not shrugging my shoulders about it. And I have friends who are deeply affected by this, especially my trans friends and young people. But we've been here before, we have won before and we can win again. And the haters, what the haters don't understand is that every time they do this, they bring out another generation of young people who say no and fight back.
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A
Yeah, it's interesting to think about what lessons we can take from such a different political landscape. I mean, even thinking about how people organized back then is so, so different.
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C
From what happens now.
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A
I know phone trees, it's so glamorous.
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D
I've had to explain what phone trees are. That's kind of funny. Dial phones also. But yeah, for those of you who don't know, phone trees are. You call 10 people, that person calls 10 people. And that's how you communicate.
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A
What is it like for you, as somebody who's spent decades documenting queer history, to see it repeating itself on a personal level?
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D
I would have hoped that it wouldn't repeat itself, but it's repeated itself a few times in my lifetime. We had the Anita Bryant anti gay campaign during the AIDS crisis. There was an anti gay campaign, the Moral Majority, during President George H.W. bush. He used gay people as a wedge issue. I wrote a couple of columns in Newsweek about that back in the early 90s. So I shouldn't have been surprised. I think I was a little surprised by how effective they were. But they were really smart. The anti gay haters. They chose the most vulnerable among us, the least understood. So the reason that Anita Bryant was so successful and Briggs was, was that most people didn't know someone who was gay. Most people don't really know or didn't know until recently someone who was trans. So Anita Bryant very successfully made this a national conversation about homosexuality. And this latest anti gay backlash has made trans issues a national discussion. If my grandmother were alive today, she would be Saying the same thing she said to me way back when. She said, where did all these gay people come from? And she would be saying now, where did all these trans people come from? And I'd say, well, they've always been here. They've always been here. So it's a little dispiriting. I don't think I've gotten as upset as younger people. I know, because when you've been around the block a few times, but it's also, you just think, they're never gonna give up. They're never gonna give up. And it goes for not just the anti gay haters, it's the right wing radicals are always gonna try to turn back the clock. And we can never let down our guard. And we really let our guard down after Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed. And with marriage equality, we thought it was over.
- [25:32]
A
Yeah. I feel like I could talk about this with you forever, but I think that's all the time we have.
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D
You gotta go.
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A
Thank you so, so much for joining us. This was such a pleasure.
- [25:44]
D
It was a pleasure. Thank you.
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A
Next, I'm so excited to welcome Deray McKesson, who is a civil. Yeah, please give it up. Deray is a civil rights activist and organizer at the forefront of the movement against police violence. He is the co founder and executive director of Campaign Zero, the host of the podcast Pod Save the People. He's also the author of a memoir and essay collection called on the Other side of the Case for Hope. Thank you so much for being here, Deray.
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C
It's so good to be here.
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A
It's great to meet you.
- [26:21]
C
Great to meet you too. I learned so much with issues brought up by the podcast. So I'm excited to talk.
- [26:26]
A
Thank you. So you've talked and written a lot about the meaning of protest, which is obviously a major theme in the season of Slow Burn. What has protest meant to you and what's your relationship to protest been over the course of your life as an activist?
- [26:43]
C
Yeah, I think about protest as the idea of telling the truth in public. That when we were in FERGUSON, It'll be 10 years since the protest in Ferguson. This August, we. Which is wild to think that it's been a decade, but we were using our bodies to tell the truth in that moment, but we can tell the truth in a million ways. And that has been really powerful. I think about, I was in the White House a couple times with Obama, and we're in this one meeting and he and I are going back and forth because he's mad. He's like, the White House is like, you're being too mean to the police on the news. So they would call me and be like, deray, chill out. And I'm like, looks like they're killing people. Sounds like they're killing people. They're killing people. You know, I'm like, this is what's happening. And Obama and I are standing next to each other. And he's like, deray, you know, I need you to chill out. And I was like, you know, President Obama. And he's like. He's like, you've said some things you shouldn't say. And I was like, obama, you called the Baltimore protesters thugs. Like, that was.
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A
Maybe you shouldn't have said that.
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C
Maybe you shouldn't have said that. And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, you know, so. But I say that to say that, like, part of our commitment as activists is to tell the truth in all the rooms that we're in, whether it's the president, whether it's the street, whether it's the business meeting, and how we tell the truth is what changed. But whether we tell the truth is what doesn't change.
- [27:55]
A
You know, you talk about getting people in the streets. Obviously, we just heard from Eric about the arguments over whether having people in the streets could cause a backlash, whether, you know, it could set the movement back by scaring people. What do you feel the value is in getting people in a show of numbers and putting their bodies out there?
- [28:14]
C
Yeah, you know, I think about protests as the beginning of the solution, not the solution in and of itself. We needed to shut down everything so people paid attention. And that is true for a lot of movements. If we had not blocked everything and shut things down, people would have ignored us. And that is supposed to create space so we can go do the structural change. I don't think about the protest as the win, but we couldn't have got the win without the protest. That's sort of how I think about. I do get worried sometimes, because people. The protests can be exciting. You know, I've done. We shut down. We are one of the only people to ever shut down a police department from the inside. We went inside, sat on the ground. The police were pissed. They couldn't really hit us because there were cameras, you know, but they dragged us. They dragged. I got dragged up on my ankles that day. But that was one of many things we did. Church. We did a whole lot of things that were really interesting and fascinating, but that we knew that that wasn't Going to stop the police from killing people. But it forced people to confront the issue and think about it. And when I think about this issue is in how do we get people on the street and what does it mean? I'm reminded that one of the biggest gifts in organizing is storytelling. That how we talk about the problem, how we explain it to people is more than half the battle. I don't think I would have said that 10 years ago, but I think that that is like the bread and butter skill these days. And if I worry about anything, especially on the left, is that I, you know, I always think about, I'm trying to convince aunts and uncles, they are my bread and butter. If I can get my aunt, I got her because my aunt is busy. She got three kids and two job time for a 45 minute thing for me, I gotta like really get in and get her. And if I can get aunts and uncles, I can always win. And I worry sometimes because I'm never trying to convince the far left. They don't care what, like they already get it. You know what I mean? I can give them the 45 minute thing and they'll get it, the far left gets it. But the middle, the aunts and uncles is like where I'm always trying to go.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah, that's so interesting because, you know, in Slow Burn Gays Against Briggs, there's a conversation about, you know, should. There was one faction of gay people who were saying like, we can't be too in your face, we shouldn't even be saying the word gay. Let's call this human rights. And then another group of people saying, you know, actually we need to call it what it is and we're never gonna really change things unless we are a little bit in your face about it. Like, what has your experience been in your movement work with that tension between, you know, needing to meet people where they are, which is sometimes way far behind where we'd them to be, and actually really changing things on a, on a massive level the way they need to be changed.
- [30:48]
C
Yeah, I think this is the tension, you know, when I talk about the police now, especially with like the school to prison pipeline and stuff like that. What I'll say now is, do you need a person with a gun to tell a 10 year old to stop yelling? And that is an easier way for me to talk about police in schools than like start some other way. Because most people are like, yeah, you don't really need a person with the gun to tell the 10, like 10 year olds are Going to yell. That's like a part of being a 10 year old. And you don't need a person with a gun to tell him to sit down. Or do you need a person with a gun to tell somebody that their tail lights out? It's an easier way for me to talk about traffic stops than like to lead him with this whole thing about racism and da, da. Just not that it's not true, but what can get me in the room so I can sort of win later. So when I think about the tension, for me it's like, I know that I can't win if I can't get you in the room. So my first goal is always like, get you in the room and then fight, fight, fight. But it's not to scare you from coming in the room. Cause I feel pretty confident I can get most people in the room. Does that make sense?
- [31:42]
A
And then once they're in the room, where do you go from there? You know, how do you. Do you confront people's beliefs? They're sometimes deeply held, like wrong beliefs or harmful beliefs.
- [31:54]
C
I do. And what I do now, because I was in a lot of places right after the protest ended and I felt myself giving a lot of speeches. I was like, you know, preaching to people and da, da, da. And they would just be like, no. And I'm like, the please kill people. And they're like, no. And I'm like, I'm exhausted. And they are unmoved. And that was. I was like, I can't keep doing this. So what I try to do is like, do a question that I think makes them do more work than me. So with the police, I would say, you know, when is it okay for the police to kill your child? Like, tell me, like, what's the thing? Is it a robbery? Is it a stabbing? I don't know, like, what's the. And I would just sit there and they would be like, well, you're being mean. I'm like, am I mean? I don't know, like, you know, I deal with parents who lost their kids. So tell me the, the thing that if your kid does it, you're okay with the bullet through your kid's head? And I mean that, like, I'm interested in your answer every time they like fall apart, you know, of course. But it's like I needed to shift the cognitive burden. So I was not the only person putting in work because I was like giving these speeches and it was like, well, this is going nowhere, you know?
- [32:54]
A
Yeah. A few months ago, the Supreme Court Declined to Hear your case, McKesson versus Doe, which was about a lawsuit that was filed against you, holding you responsible for other people's actions at a protest you attended in Baton Rouge in 2016. A lot of people saw the Supreme Court's inaction as a threat to the right to public protest. Can you explain a little bit about the parameters of that case and the implications of it?
- [33:24]
C
Yeah, this, I think, is the first interview I've done, really, about the case. I've been in the case since 2016, and we just haven't talked about it a lot for a lot of reasons. But there was a protest in Baton Rouge. I was there, a police officer. I was arrested pretty quickly. The police said, get out of the street. I was like, cool. I'd had a job at the time, so I was like, I'm trying to lay low. They say, get off the street. I get off the street. I still get arrested. And I spend the next 17 hours in police custody. So for like, seven of those hours, I was on a bus, and then for the rest, I was in a jail cell with 25 other people. I get out holding, and I realize there are five officers who have sued me. If you remember, in 2016, there were five police officers who got killed in Dallas. It was like a random night. This guy shot five police officers. Three of their family members sued me, and then two officers in Baton Rouge sued me for essentially causing a riot that got them hurt or killed. So we got them all dismissed. That was a good thing. And then this one guy appealed, John Doe, and the question was, could I be sued? He said he got hit with the rock. The question was, could I be sued for inciting a riot that caused him to get hit? And we have still been dealing with that question since 2016. So we went to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals three times. I went to the Supreme Court twice. I went to the Louisiana State Supreme Court, and we essentially lost it every step of the way. Where the Supreme Court ultimately did not say I could not be sued, that is essentially what they didn't say. They. Sotomayor wrote a little note that said if the lower court had read a more recent decision that they had written, then it could have changed the outcome of the lower court's case. So that is sort of where we are. But there's a historic case, Claiborne, the Claiborne Harward case, where during the civil rights movement, this issue came up again, and the court said, you can't sue protest leaders for other people getting hurt. I Don't know this man. I've never seen him. I don't even know if he actually got hurt because we never really had a fact finding. And what I have not said anywhere else but I'll say here today is one of the hard things is that I got deposed. So we had this crazy deposition and they are saying that they have undercover officers who heard me plan violence. And I'm like, well, I wasn't in any meetings. I don't know where'd you hear it? And they're like, we have text messages from you. And I asked the lawyer, I'm like, well, what did I text? And so she says this crazy thing. And I go, well, can you show me the text? And she's like, no. And I'm like, but I thought you said. She's like, I can't show you. And I'm like, well, where am I? It really is a crazy thing, but it is sort of wild to have been in this case since 2016. We might have to go to a jury trial about the actual facts, and that is where we are.
- [35:58]
A
That sounds excruciating and I'm sorry you have to go through all that. You know, you became sort of a well known leader of this movement in Ferguson, Missouri, 2014, after a police killed Michael Brown. And there, you know, we saw this militarized police force escalating things, just like we've seen in many Black Lives Matter demonstrations since then and more recently in protests for Gaza. You know, in our podcast, there's a big riot that happens in episode seven where gay people start out causing a little property damage. And then police again show up in riot gear and really escalate things to the point that 140 people are injured, many of them hospitalized. What is it about the structure or the policy of police forces that end up making them make things so much worse when they show up to ostensibly keep the peace?
- [36:57]
C
Yeah, I'll zoom out and say that. What I didn't appreciate in 2014 was how much like the definitions and sort of the basic storytelling matters a lot. So my mother left when I was three and my father raised us. I'm really close to my dad, me and my sister. My sister's named Terray. We're not twins, we just have rhyming names. And probably the single most important thing about protests I've ever said to my father, like, if I called him right now, I was like, daddy, what was the most important thing I've ever said to you? He would say the difference between prisons and jails. Mind you, I talk to him all the time. I've said a lot of things to him, and I'm like, really? The difference between prisons and Jesus in jails? And he's like, we were talking about Rikers, and he was like, I thought Rikers was a prison. He was like, I didn't know Rikers was a jail. I didn't know that the 90% of people in Rikers have not been convicted of a crime. And just knowing the difference between prison and jail completely changed everything. He's like, they should be able to vote. Da, da, da, da. And I took for granted the simple storytelling. So when I think about the police, one of the things that's so interesting is there's so many things to choose from. But, like the. In New York City, there's a civilian oversight board, which most people know exists. What most people don't know is that they only have power to make recommendations to the police chief, which he routinely ignores. So we just. I just had a call right before I came here, and one of the single biggest categories of violations that are ignored by the police chief is harassment and discrimination against LGBTQ members in New York City. So if the civilian review board says, yes, they did it, the officer did it, and recommends discipline, the police chief just ignores them. So we spend a lot of money on the committee and the commission and the members and da, da, da, da. And they just make these recommendations that go ignored because the police have, like, created this system where they're the only people who can hold themselves accountable. But the public doesn't get it. They are like, civilian oversight.
- [38:45]
A
Da, da.
- [38:45]
C
And you're like, I don't really know if we can call this oversight. I mean, they're making recommendations that don't mean nothing. You know what I mean? But when we tell people, when we poll people, they're like, the civilian oversight body should have real power, but they just don't know. And so much of what we find in cities across the country is that if we tell this story right, people get it. But if we assume that people just understand, then we lose. And we believe that when we fight, we win. That part of the work of the activists that came before us is that they fought. I think about Briggs. I didn't know that, but I think about that as incredible story of organizers. There's, like, these people who were like, I don't got all the answers, but I know this ain't right. And they, like, came outside and did it, you know?
- [39:25]
A
Yeah. I mean, what is the. I feel like in today's political landscape, we have this ascendant, sort of extremist, increasingly authoritarian right wing. We have so many, you know, undemocratic structures that are keeping people's voices from being heard. I Live in Washington D.C. i'm not even and represented in Congress. It sometimes feels like what people do doesn't really matter. But as an organizer and a leader, you're trying to convince people, people power does matter. How do you make that case to people?
- [39:59]
C
It matters so much. I think that what I had to own is that the system is never gonna tell you that that matters. So I was talking to the Senate president in a state and he was like, Dorie, if 25 people email me, it's a crisis.
- [40:11]
D
This.
- [40:12]
C
He's like 25 individual emails. He's like, those form things that you click don't matter. But if 25 people even send me like poorly written emails about a topic, it is literally an emergency. Cause he's like, people don't reach out. He's like, if 20 people call my office, like actually call and don't like read a script, but call. He's like, that is a. That is legitimately like a hot topic for us. It's like, people, people, you know, the Internet has warped our minds. And people think you need a million of this and 200,000 and the numbers are much lower. You know, like it really does matter. And I think about, I used to be the chief, I'm 38 now and I used to be the chief of human capital in the school system in Baltimore. When I was 30, we had 10,000 employees, 170 schools. And I managed all, everything to do with adults. So I hired everybody, staff the schools. First day of school that year, a mom emails the superintendent and says, my kindergartner is in a class with like 45 kids. And she's like, it's too big. Superintendent sends it to me and I'm like, let's see what we can do. So I go over to our benefits team. I'm like, is somebody coming back off, leave. We literally split the class up. The next day I find some money for an extra teacher. Only because she sent an email. She sent like a random email to the superintendent. She was one person. It mattered, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think she knows that. That is why we put an extra teacher in that classroom and split it up. But she is the sole reason. There's a principal, there's a support team, there's a staff and run. There are a million people who could have advocated, but they didn't. She sent one email, and it mattered a ton. You know, and that's what I always remember is that, like, you'd be shocked at how much your advocacy actually matters. But if you are looking for feedback from the system, you'll never get it. That's just not a part of the game.
- [41:48]
A
Yeah. I think one of the ways that people have increasingly made their voices heard in recent years is obviously social media, which marks a huge difference between, you know, the 1990s, 1970s, which is the organizing that I've been researching. And today, you know, social media has obviously been amazing for helping people find each other, making people feel less isolated. It's also now, you know, Elon Musk is bringing hate speech back to X. Facebook is like enabling a genocide. There's everyone's enabling disinformation. Do you think social media, like, what do you think the net value is to movements for justice?
- [42:27]
C
Yeah, I think that, you know, I'll never forget we had this, like, small meeting with Sheryl Sandberg, and she literally was like, I've never heard that people get death threats on Facebook. And we're sitting here, like, we're, like, looking at her, like. Like, simulation. Like, she. And she was. She was like, are you serious? And we're like, cheryl, what? Like, I don't. You know, like, it was. It was a surreal meeting. It really was. She was like, could you show me? And I'm like, I mean, I guess, but you show me, don't you? It's your platform. So that was weird. So I do think there's a little, like. I think some of it is, like, there's a lot of distance from some of the leaders, and I think there's, like, a willful ignorance about some of this stuff. And she's gone. But I will never forget that meeting. Cause I was like, of all the things I expected you to say, that wasn't it. You know, it is. I think the Internet has changed so much, even in 10 years. You know, when we were in Ferguson, there was no Twitter video. There was no livestream. It was Vine. I was, like, taking a video running in a corner, like, trying to find the six seconds that I thought made the most sense. And then running back, like, that was what we did back then. And there also wasn't, like, the language of going viral. That wasn't, like, a thing back then. So I was never worried that people were posting weird things to, like, go viral, because that wasn't, like, a thing. Whereas now even I look at stuff. And I'm like, is that real, or did somebody just say something weird to go viral? Like, it is a more complicated sort of ecosystem than it was back in 2014.
- [43:44]
A
So many more. You can make money being an influencer with Influencer.
- [43:47]
C
Yeah, that just wasn't a thing, you know, but the cool thing is, like, you can talk to a million people. You know, I can talk to a million people at the drop of a dime. I can get a senator or somebody on the phone. I can DM them. I can. We can. We can just touch communities in ways that we could not before, which is really cool. But I spent most of my time on the content. And you'd be shocked at the way the system runs. And the Internet allows us to, like, understand it more every day. Like, we're about to launch a campaign on pay to stay. Every single state but California, Illinois, it is legal to charge people incarcerated room and board, and they get the bill when they leave. And, like, you know, we're launching this data set that has it all in it. There's a guy in Illinois who got charged $72 a day for 20 years. He gets out with a $300,000 bill, and we're like, you know, I'm shocked. I see it like, is this real? But we have. That is what we spend our days on. And I bring that up because what is so heartening about hearing Eric and so many other people who talk about activism is like, we do win. We do win. There's so many times we win. And I worry sometimes that people get more excited about fighting than winning. And, like, I got in this to win, that, like, we can win, you know, and part of our work is to remind people that we win. And I think about since 2014, it's like, we. We've done laws in over 20 states. We've done, like, 700 policies. There is winning happening. And I want people to know that when they join the fight, they're coming on the heels of winning. It's not just on the heels of fighting. Cause when I see the Internet, sometimes I get worried that it's just like an endless protest. It's like an endless. You're just always pissed and always fighting. And it's like, I was in it, and we needed to do that, and that was an important thing. But for us, the protest was the same set up to the win. It was not the win. Does that make sense?
- [45:32]
A
Yeah. And I think there's. I mean, you make a good point that, you know, for better or for worse, There's a lot of the things that deeply affect people's lives are decisions being made by smaller groups of people or state legislatures or school boards. And, you know, those are things where, like, individual votes really matter a lot more. And I love the refocusing on that because, yeah, I think the things that, like, are happening in people, to people, in jails and prisons are not decisions being made by the President of the United States all the time and stress these people out.
- [46:02]
C
It's your job. You know, like, you are my friend, and, you know, one of the things we do with our friends is like. I'm like, I will always give you a heads up. So, like, I called, you know, there's some people I like who are in big offices in states who have done nothing. And I called their office, like, hey, I'm gonna say publicly you've done nothing. I'm gonna give you a month. You know, I tell you what I'm gonna say. Like, I don't need to be shady about it, but, like, you have not done anything. And that is true. And, like, we don't have to be, you know, one gotta fight about it. But I. But it is like, this is your job. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, this your job. So I don't ever feel bad about holding people accountable to it. Cause it's like, if you didn't. If you weren't ready, then leave.
- [46:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:42]
C
You know, and you'd be shocked at how not smart a lot of the legislators are, too.
- [46:46]
B
So, like, I don't know that I.
- [46:48]
A
Drink a lot of stuff.
- [46:49]
C
Oh, my God. It's like, please stress these people out.
- [46:52]
A
Well, thank you so much, deray. This has been amazing. I'm so glad to meet you.
- [46:55]
C
So great to be here.
- [46:56]
B
Hi.
- [46:57]
D
Boom.
- [47:08]
A
So in this season of Slow Burn, which I hope some of you have listened to, and you've made it to the right theater, One of the main pillars of the campaign to defeat Briggs was queer visibility. So in episode four, which just came out yesterday, we hear about Harvey Milk saying, you know, every gay person must come out. And there were other activists who had little business cards that they would carry around that basically said, like, you've just been in a room with a gay person. Like, please vote against this because it's my rights. They really felt like, and this was actually kind of the more progressive or radical position at the time, that if people knew how many queer people there were, and they knew that they were everywhere, including in their own lives, that they would be motivated to protect their Rights. And so the idea in the 1970s that visibility is a necessary step in this road to legal wins was particularly interesting to me, not just because I think it was successful back then, but because today it seems a little bit less like that's a guaranteed road to success. There's a lot of queer and trans visibility right now, and yet we are seeing this intense new national backlash against trans and queer people. So to help me unpack all this, I am delighted to have with us this evening Sam Feder. Sam, please start the long walk up to join me. Sam is the director and producer of the documentary Disclosure. It came out in 2020. You can find it on Netflix. Their film features all manner of trans luminaries, actors and thinkers reflecting on portrayals of trans people in film and television across generations. It was nominated for a Peabody Award. It is a beautiful and bracing look at how depictions in the media shape not just people's minds, but people's lives. Thank you for coming to discuss this with me. What moves you about the idea of trans representation and visibility? Why make a film about it?
- [49:26]
E
First off, thank you for having me here and to Slate and Tribeca and all the folks that are here. What moved me to make the film? A lot of things moved me to make the film. I think a lot of people assume because I'm a filmmaker and I made a film about visibility, that I'm in the position of thinking visibility is the answer. But I think I've always been deep in this conversation around the paradox of visibility and how quickly images that dehumanize populations can manufacture consent for executions.
- [50:02]
D
Right.
- [50:02]
E
We've seen this again and again and again historically. So whenever. So I've always looked at any type of visibility through that lens. So when, you know, 2014, June 9th, I think it was. Laverne Cox was on the COVID of Time magazine. It just terrified me because I just didn't feel like the world was ready to see. See trans people in the media in the way that we had been seen. I didn't think there was anything to celebrate about that moment. And I really wanted to encourage people to take a step back, and so that's why I made the film.
- [50:43]
A
It's interesting because when we spoke, I think last week, I shared with you how I thought your film was this amazing, complicated look at visibility. And you said that actually a lot of people even who watch the film think that it's a celebration of visibility and representation. Why do you think that is such a common misinterpretation of the film?
- [51:02]
E
Well, actually, you said. You said that's because that's what they want to see. Right. And that. That really struck me, like, of course, everyone wants to join a celebration. Like, you want to join a party when you see a party. Right. You. Why would you want to stop celebrating? Like, that's fun. And then another thing, another part of that is, I think it was a relief for people who didn't know what to do with us, but still worried about us. And that was like, okay, we don't have to worry about you anymore. You're good. This is proof you're good. There's five people who are making money, and that's great. So I think that might have been part of it. But I think there's also this larger conversation, in particular thinking about Harvey Milk and coming out, which was so successful. And then trans visibility is. Trans visibility has come in the form of a very mainstream, very assimilated people, Whereas in the 70s, those are the radical queers.
- [52:06]
A
Yeah.
- [52:07]
E
And I think that it just sets such a different path than where we were set with our tipping point.
- [52:15]
A
Yeah. When you think about that tipping point, you know, what happened after that, after Laverne Cox was on the COVID of Time?
- [52:24]
E
Well, she had a great career, and she's a dear friend, and she's on the same page as I am with all this. She worked, she executive produced the film. It is a film she had been thinking about for many years. And when she saw me speak about it, she asked if she could come on board. And it was an incredible collaborative relationship. So what happened was. Your question. Wait, say your question again.
- [52:47]
A
Yeah, I'm thinking about. You know, that was 2014, and since then, I feel like we've seen, you know, sort of escalating backlash against trans people, I guess. What do you think the relationship is between visibility and backlash?
- [53:07]
E
Well, I think in the case of trans visibility, you know, there were a few people who were on the red carpet. Right. And who were became celebrities. And there at the time, I think it was, nearly 86% of the population said they were more likely to have seen a ghost than to have met a trans person. And those of them who understood what trans was said they only knew trans people in film and tv. Right. So you see people on the red carpet, and they might incite rage in you, but you don't have access to that person, so you have access to the people on the street. And so we saw an escalation of social and legislative violence because that was the only target. And of course, as Eric gestured to earlier when marriage passed, the right needed to find another target. And even before that, I mean, the right has a deep strategy towards what's happening. They've been working for a long time in terms of just even deciding what language to use publicly. The adf, like, was, has been deep into how to talk about gender ideology. Right. The terms they were going to use, the framing they would use. It's been happening for nearly 15 years. And so their time had come, and they were able to, you know, there had been this unleashing of bigotry that was then supported by politics. And we're in the worst of it, and it's only getting worse now.
- [54:35]
A
Yeah. Obviously, the mistreatment of trans people did not begin with the transgender tipping point. And in your film, you look back on depictions of trans people from the very beginning of film, which surprised me. What's in your own trans canon? What depictions affected you?
- [54:56]
E
Well, honestly, when I think about that question, I feel like there's always a different answer depending on the context in which I'm asked that question. So I'm gonna give an answer, but I have lots of answers to that question. But the depiction that I seriously, I feel like is the most important to me is by hooker, by crook. And that is anyone familiar with that film? Oh, wow. Go Watch was made in 2001. It had a Sundance premiere. It was made by Harry Dodge and Silas Howard. Are those familiar names to anybody? And it was written by them and directed by them, and it starred them. It was fundraised by them by, like, collecting garbage in the Castro. And it's a beautiful film about trans people, even though neither of them were identifying necessarily as trans at the time, but they both are now, and shortly after. But it was really the most beautiful depiction I've seen of queer friendship. And because it was in the name of trans people, it really. It had a huge impact on me.
- [56:07]
A
Yeah. What is the. What does it do to watch something like that in. Did you say 2001? 2000.
- [56:15]
E
2001, yeah.
- [56:16]
A
What was that like?
- [56:18]
E
I mean, I got it on a little DVD from Netflix. Wait, could that have been 2001?
- [56:23]
A
I think that was before DVD.
- [56:24]
E
Yeah. I mean, it was before Netflix. So then it was. I'm picturing the apartment I was in.
- [56:29]
D
I just looked it up. It's 2001. Yeah. Okay.
- [56:33]
E
I think. No, I think Netflix had started mailing us DVDs at that point.
- [56:36]
A
That's when.
- [56:36]
E
That's when they got us.
- [56:37]
A
Maybe. I don't remember 2001.
- [56:39]
E
So you weren't Born yet. What did it mean to me? I watched it on my laptop, on my bed, in a room in an apartment where I had roommates, and I was in grad school, and I just. I couldn't get enough of it. I. What did it mean? It didn't mean anything in terms of, like, we're good now, we're liberated. It just meant. I mean, this is. It sounds so cheesy, but it just meant we weren't alone. Right. You know, just like any book you read of particularly that time in San Francisco for my generation was just so exciting. And to feel like there's fun to be had and there's adventure and there's community and there's people who understand your language. And so I think maybe that's what it meant for me.
- [57:25]
A
This feeling that you had when you saw the 2014 Time cover of like, oh, my gosh, no. Has that always been your relationship to trans visibility, or has it changed over the course the of. Of, you know, your own life as a trans person?
- [57:40]
E
It's, like, leading up to that. Did that change? I think any mainstream visibility rubs me the wrong way. I have no desire for that. I don't identify with that. I understand why some people do, but. Yeah, so it's always bothered me. So I feel like the way we saw trans people before that, you know, boys don't cry, that was traumatizing. Right. So not a great example. The Crying Game, beautiful film. Again, not a great example of how to treat trans people. And then the way the, like, we were always in, like, the style section of the news, and that really was strange to me. So I really didn't understand the utility of visibility.
- [58:33]
B
Yeah.
- [58:35]
A
So obviously today we're in a moment of, you know, more visibility than ever. And as you mentioned, this increasing push to legislate against trans people. You were telling me about something that's happening here in New York right now, which surprised me because I think of this as, you know, similar to San Francisco, where perhaps this city is further ahead than some of the, you know, states where we're seeing state bills, you know, banding, gender affirming care, or, you know, drag story hour and stuff like that. What is going on here now?
- [59:10]
E
What's going on here now? So in the free city of New York, there are now two districts in New York City schools that have passed resolutions that keep trans kids out of sports. Sports. Now, resolutions don't necessarily go into action. Right. The. The state will likely protect those kids because our state is, at the moment, supportive of trans people. But that's just telling us it's starting, it's starting here. And those of you who are familiar with the Moms for Liberty, this national organization, they again, very strategic, have worked across the country to get moms on boards. Moms members who are Moms of Liberty, they don't necessarily have to have kids in public school at that time, but they've been on the boards. And, you know, school board meetings are probably not exactly what most of us want to do with our free time. Most parents may not have the free time to do that. So it's really easy to get elected. So now the majority of the people on the school boards are conservative thinkers. And in particular in these two districts, there's this woman named Maude, and she's really catapulted on fear of trans girls participating in sports. And so she got these resolutions passed and about, I guess it was in April, the ACLU lawyer, Chase Strangio, which again, someone you should look up if you're not familiar with. I can give you a list at the end of all the things I want you to look up. He. Someone notified him that this was happening. And what was so upsetting was, and this is in his own words, he travels the country fighting these things that he didn't know what was happening in New York in his child's district. And so he started to organize people coming to these meetings there every other month. So I started going to them as a concerned citizen. And now I'm incorporating that story into a project I'm working on. But last night was a meeting where they were voting to rescind this resolution. And there was this 12 year old trans child, a girl, who was one of the Most confident, composed 12 year olds I've ever seen in my life. We had been on a meeting on Zoom the day before and I was already so taken aback by this child. And she was really funny too, which is really disarming. And she actually, when she saw me with the camera, she was like, you have my permission to film me. She was like, sorry, I don't feel children. And she was a little mad at me. But at the meeting, you know, people sign up to talk and she was one of the first people to come up and she went up with her mother and her brother and she spoke, she spoke so brilliantly. So she was so vulnerable and, you know, she really was able to straddle like the fact that she's a child, right? She was talking about girl boxes and boy boxes and, you know, the boy box is too Small for her. And like Anne, also talking about the respect that the board seems to lack. Like, she was really. She's a force. Then her mom speaks, or then. Then her mom starts to speak. And I'm standing behind. They're facing the board, and I'm in the audience. So I'm seeing their backs. The mom's voice is quivering, and both this child and her younger brother are comforting their mother. So I'm already, like, losing it. The mom gives a beautiful talk. She says something that I loved, where she said, my trans daughter is the daughter I always dreamed of. And, you know, and then the brother who was 10, you know, his little voice was also just talking. It was just a beautiful moment. A little while later, I'm. I'm looking at the audience because I'm with my cameraman. So my position switches, and I'm looking at the audience from the point of view of the board, and someone gets up who identified as queer. I believe he said he was a gay against grooming. And within moments, he said, looking at the child, trans girls don't exist. And I was looking at the child and this bright, beautiful, shining child. Just. You can only imagine what happened to her demeanor. And she filled up with tears, and she started sobbing, and she left the room. Her mother took her out. So, you know, I think about all the theories around organizing and the failures of our movement, which I love talking about, and the different ways we should be organizing and being activists in the world. And then I see moments like that, right? And I don't have kids. I don't want to have kids. I mourn the loss of my friends who have had kids. You know, I love kids, but that was so excruciating and so unkind and left me so feeling so helpless. And at this moment, all we can do is show up. They voted not to rescind the resolution 5 to 4. There were two people that didn't vote. And meanwhile, during the talk, the mod, you know, Moms for Liberty woman was filming this little girl. Like, it's really strange. Like, when you see it in your face like that, it's. It's. It's really hard to believe that it's true. And so I want to know how we can get more people to show up, right? I want to know where the generation, you know, in your podcast, where are they?
- [65:15]
D
Right?
- [65:16]
E
They went through this as adults. It's a lot easier for adults to fight back. These kids can't fight back. Right? And it's a very different path for an adult to come out and be proud and go to a protest and get arrested and do all those amazing radical things, you know, that we hear about in your podcast. But there's the only path we know for kids is that you rally around kids when you want to take away people's rights. You know, I don't, I'm not a historian, but what I understand about the civil rights movement is that the, it was very strategic that the children would be the last thing. The desegregating schools would be one of the last things, because the leaders understood that when it comes to children, things get real nasty. And so, and then my understanding of the movement on the, to the anti trans movement or the anti LGBT as a whole movement, they went right for the kids. That's where they wanted to start. And they, they know that's the best starting place. And then they're just going to move up to the rest of the population. So where's everybody?
- [66:24]
A
Yeah, I feel like we're almost out of time, but I, I want to know, you know, you talked about this new project that you're working on. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
- [66:35]
E
Yeah. So after I made disclosure, suddenly people were offering me jobs and I was like, oh, wow, you know, some, like, financial security. That's an interesting idea. That's exciting. Sure. And these were people I really had nothing in common with, but they were very excited to kind of, you know, part of the reason I made disclosure was to kind of talk about this idea of commodifying trans people. So they wanted to jump on, jump on that also well meaning. But, you know, they were business people and. But they clearly they came to me, they knew what I was about. And about a year and a half into working with people, people who never really said anything disparaging about trans people, were engaging in conversations with me. And, you know, you spend two minutes with me and, you know my politics. They would really say things like, well, you know, I really support trans people, but what about parental rights? You know, what about parental rights? I would ask them, well, you know, trans kids, you know, shouldn't have access to medical intervention. Or I'd have a conversation with. I was shouting. A director on a television show. It happened to be a television show about queer and trans people. This director was neither queer nor trans. That's fine. She was good director. But in the break room, we're talking about politics, talking about trans stuff, and she says, you know, you always know what's coming when you get that voice. You know, I support trans people, you know, Blah, blah, blah. I know three of them and. But, you know, I didn't know my gender until I hit puberty. Like, how could these kids. No, I just don't think it's real. Now. Neither of these people had ever heard of puberty blockers. Clearly neither of these people understood that any medical intervention requires parental consent. And none of these people understood the history of the term parental consent. And these are the people that were on our side. And so I got really alarmed and started just seeing this increasing movement of people who were on our side now questioning us. And, and I just couldn't. I was trying to figure out where that came from. And it came from the news. It came from the mainstream liberal, liberal news. And you know, all these talking points that we had heard on the right for so long were now suddenly being parroted in the mainstream. And it, they were debating our lives, debating our existence. And it's just like, when did my RA life become up for debate, you know, and, and when did my community's life, when did a human life like what? So I am looking at how mainstream news, both print and broadcast, have, are responsible and have been amplifying the anti trans rhetoric that is leading to one of the greatest rollbacks of civil rights in modern history.
- [69:35]
A
That sounds fantastic. I'm really glad you're taking that on. Thank you so much for joining us, Sam. So for our final guest tonight, I am ecstatic to introduce Esther Falick. Esther is a comedian, singer and musical theater writer. She has a one woman show, Esther Updates for her book. She's performed it all over New York City, including at the 2022 New York Comedy Festival. She also recently sold out Joe's Pub with this very show. And she was a co writer on the Purple M&M's debut song, I'm Just Gonna Be Me, which premiered in September 2022. What a star. Thank you, Esther, for being here. I'm gonna maybe let you perform first and then. Okay. Okay, I'm gonna leave.
- [70:33]
E
Bye.
- [70:35]
B
What's up everyone? Thank you for being here. I'm Esther Phallic. Yes, I'm a trans woman. Yes, my last name is Phallic. Grow up. I've never had such a powerful group of openers. Thank you. Oh my God. Yes, I of course gave myself the name Esther, but people ask me if I'm going to change my last name and I'm like, no, it reminds me where I came from. I have been on, I've been on hormones for about three and a half years now. Thank you. I did it for the light. Whoops. And I know that the hormones are working because every day I get to look in the mirror and I'm like, that's my mom. And I think that she sees it too, because she started supporting me. But I will say I went home recently for her birthday, and it does feel like on this most recent trip, something really settled for her, and she started seeing me as her daughter.
- [71:54]
D
Because.
- [71:54]
B
She talked about my weight the whole time I was there. It was so affirming. That's how you be an ally queen. Slay boots.
- [72:09]
D
Um, yeah.
- [72:13]
B
Can I tell you guys the three moments in my transition so far that have been the most gender affirming? Okay, I will. So the first time that my boobs bounced, I was like, I'm a woman. The first time that my hair bounced, I was like, I'm a beautiful woman. And the first time that my check bounced, I was like, I'm a trans woman. My pronouns, which not one of y' all has asked for yet, are, of course, she, her, thank you. The bravest pronouns there are. Everyone's, like, put a they in there. I'm happy. But I did get there through the he, him to he, they to they, them, to she, they to she, her. Pipeline. Maybe you've heard. Maybe you're on it. Maybe you don't know you're on it. And one of the steps that I took was on the day that Elliot Page came out, because he came out as he they when I was still he, they. And I was like, oh, no, we're not going for the same thing here. Do y' all like Hunter Schaefer? Do we like Hunter Schaefer? I love Hunter Schaefer. It's so exciting as trans women to have our own unrealistic expectations. I already knew my body wasn't going to look like that, but now I get to know my body is never going to look like that representation. It is an interesting conversation. You know, it's not going to save us, but it can. I do feel like it helped me see what was possible. Like, when I was growing up, I would start to have the inkling of the thought, esther, you're trans. But then I would be like, no, you can't be trans, Esther. You don't want to kill and skin people. You're not trans. And it took me a long time before I realized there's so many ways to be trans. That works for her, but it doesn't have to be how I do it. I'm also a musical theater girl. When's Our month, It's right now. It's June with the others. And sometimes I get sad that I didn't transition earlier. But then it's like if I transitioned earlier, I wouldn't have gotten every single lead in my high school theater program. Everyone's talking about trans kids in sports, but no one is talking about the closeted trans women cleaning up in drama departments across the country.
- [75:24]
D
Yeah.
- [75:25]
B
So let's give it up for those sad, sad girls. So when I started transitioning, I realized that I couldn't sing the same songs that I used to sing. So I went through the musical theater canon looking for songs for women to sing. And I found some tropes that I really loved. My favorite. I love those songs. They're sung by a woman. Usually she, like, owns a saloon. She's usually quite stacked, and she has a big fan. And she's like, sex, I've had it. So this is my. That maestro. Back when I was a girl, before I was even a girl, I was on a mission to please the wild. Enter Esther doll and tea blockers, which empowered me and endowed me. Perfect knockers. I used to ask the ladies if I could be their baby. But look, look who's mommy now. There's so much that I'm loining. Have you heard of sapphic yoinin'? Look who's mommy now? I don't get the guys who say, hey, that girl has no pussy. I'm clearly a cat girl. Who'd have thought the hormones would fill my life with mum moans soon? I'm hoping your moans, look who's mommy now. You know, I think my gender was born on the wrong side of the tracks. Hey, that explained why I rail so often. Vegans needn't panic. My strap is organic. Look who's now. If you're nervous, baby, there's no hurry we'll wait for your top surgery. My rump was Lilliputian till a hormone revolution caused fat redistribution. Mommy, now you know my favorite movie was always. You want to know why? Because at the end, she has it real hard when he gets all wet. Girls, hot boys wet. Let me break it down. It's called T4T. When he takes T and she E. And it's a bit different, you see, because here he's not the one with the D. You clear? And you should know to make heroes, it's good to go into her B. Cause contrary to what's seen on tv, in her B resides her G. As for he, stick with the P. Get it? Got it. Easy so if you want a dick that's soft and always so well coiffed with balls like I just coughed. Look who's mommy. Full not stepping. Look who's mommy. And, hey, she's on prep. Look who's mommy. Bye. Bye. Sweet dreams. Good night. Kiss, kiss who's mommy now.
- [79:23]
A
Amazing. Oh, my gosh, the Crocs. I was wondering what was gonna come.
- [79:28]
B
Out of that bag.
- [79:29]
A
I was worried.
- [79:30]
B
I can't tell you how many times I've been on my way to a comedy show and accidentally, like, honked the horn in Uber or something.
- [79:38]
A
Esther, when you're thinking about your audience, when you're writing your songs, your sets, you expect them to have some degree of fluency with just trans life. Am I right?
- [79:50]
D
What.
- [79:50]
A
What are you thinking about your. Who do you think these people are out here?
- [79:55]
B
Well, that. It's kind of gotten to a place, actually, where I've got, like. Like two or three versions of my set.
- [80:04]
A
Oh, really?
- [80:05]
B
Yeah.
- [80:06]
A
And you adapt based on who's there?
- [80:07]
B
Yeah.
- [80:08]
A
Oh, interesting. Which version did we get?
- [80:11]
D
The.
- [80:11]
A
The beginner.
- [80:14]
B
You got in. You got 201. You got 201. You know, it's like when I'm in, like, a trans room where everyone paid $3 to be there, then I can maybe, you know, say the t slur and funny things like that. But, like. But. And then there's, like, some CIS spaces that I go into, like, when I do a show in Manhattan, and it's like at the. The stand or something like that, and it's just like, oh, boy. Like, I have no idea what these people know about transness. And if they're going to a comedy show in Manhattan, probably not much, but in a space like here, it's like, yeah, they're interested in queer history, so. And everyone was like. To the other acts was going, like. So I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [81:09]
A
We were talking a little bit backstage about how hard it is for white CIS men in comedy.
- [81:18]
B
Yeah. We started a fund, actually. Yeah.
- [81:22]
A
For representation.
- [81:23]
B
GoFundMe is also. I call it the trans tipping point. Thank you.
- [81:30]
A
You came to comedy around the same time that you transitioned.
- [81:34]
B
Yes.
- [81:34]
A
How did that affect who you became as an. As a comedian?
- [81:38]
B
So I actually. Yeah. So my identity as a comedian. Yeah, I'm just like. Like, I'm like. It was hard to come out to my family as trans, but coming out as a comedian. No. Like, I had always been doing comedy, but I started in musical theater, and then I started doing, like, sketch and improv. And it wasn't until I began transitioning, something I didn't realize as a white trans woman, I had been walking through the world with this invisibility pre transition that I didn't know that I had. But especially living in New York, as soon as I transitioned, especially when I was like early in my transition, didn't really know I wasn't the fashionista you see before you. But like, there were all these eyes on me and it was so. It was striking and it was scary. And I felt like when I came out, I came out with a photo shoot and an essay called A Star is Born. And I did that because it gave me some control over the narrative that I knew I was pretty much immediately going to lose control of. And so I started doing stand up because one, I understood my point of view finally. I had been playing characters before, but now I knew who I was and what I wanted to say. And because for three to five minutes in this really chaotic time in my life, I got to have control over how this audience saw my transness. And I had to learn, I've had to learn. I like performing for trans audiences and CIS audiences because I'll think a joke is funny and then I'll do it in front of a CIS audience and be like, that felt bad when they laughed, you know. And so I've had to learn how to like understand the reality that the people with money are generally gonna be cis. The people that will buy the tickets will generally be cis. But I want the trans people there to feel like it was just for them. Yeah, yeah.
- [84:08]
A
You were talking about your sold out show at Joe's Pub, which, you know, the, the financial part of it came into play there, right?
- [84:16]
B
Yes. So Joe's Pub is kind of like only legends perform there. And it's, it is a, you know, it's a Manhattan venue. It's part of the public theater. Just like theater in general is so like CIS and white and, and upper middle. I think they had a study last year that like the average Broadway ticket buyer, their income is like 200,000 a year, something like that. Yeah. That is not, this is a little known fact, that's not the average income for trans people. Yeah, yeah. So we kind of, you know, I was so excited to perform there, to get the opportunity to do my show there, but I knew immediately that it was going to be a big challenge getting the, my biggest fans, you know, the people that I really do my work for in the door. Because the tickets were like 25 bucks. And then there's like a minimum drink minimum, and. And it just. It ends up being like a $50 night or something. So a couple days before the show, I did an Instagram story with some hot photos of me where I was like, do any CIS people want to pay for trans people's tickets? And probably, like, 20 to 25 trans people got in the door that way.
- [85:42]
A
That's fantastic.
- [85:43]
B
Yeah.
- [85:45]
A
You know, your. Your jokes are about. You know, some of it is just about trans life, but some of it is also about transphobia.
- [85:52]
B
Yes.
- [85:53]
A
What is it about that that you like mining for humor?
- [85:58]
B
Something I like to do in my comedy is, like, I do think that there is this certain expectation for trans people, like, to provide inspiration porn, you know, like, there's this. I mean, and I. I kind of played into this little. When I came out, it felt like a safe thing to do, to be like, here I am. Like, I made it through all of these things, and I found myself, and you can, too, you know, like, so I like to, like. I like my setups to kind of set up an expectation of an inspirational moment and then to undercut it with the reality of trans life. Like, the joke about my mom, you know, like, there's something the. The trans feminine experience is such. Where it's like, oh, my God, yes, I figured out who I am. I'm a woman. Oh, no. I'm a woman.
- [86:55]
D
You know?
- [86:56]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So it's. It's like the gender affirmation that comes from. Oh, great.
- [87:04]
A
Sexism directed at you.
- [87:06]
B
Exactly. I can't eat normally in front of my mom anymore.
- [87:09]
A
You know, you also. You know, something that I loved about making this podcast, Slow Burn Gays Against Briggs, was seeing how people in these moments of intense anxiety and fear found so much joy in what they were doing. I feel like that's what you do, too. Do you feel like you're part of that legacy?
- [87:29]
B
Yeah, I do. I. I love performing so much. It's just like. It's just what I was born to do. And talking about how hard it is for CIS white men. I feel like in some, this is a terrible time for trans people. But in some ways, I feel lucky in that my work is imbued with this. Like, my why is cut out for me. I don't have to figure out why I do it. It's like, if I look around, it's like if I, you know, see the. My trans friends go through. Can I cuss?
- [88:08]
A
Yes. Yes, you do.
- [88:09]
B
Shit. Fuck. Piss. Okay, yeah, do what you want with that. But when I see what my trans friends are going through and, like, my trans musical theater friends, like, who. There's, like, nothing for us. I'm like, okay, well, then I want to, like. I want to, like. I want to give trans people back the opportunity to go to a comedy show or back the opportunity to, like, sing a song or something. And performance has, like, always been a source of joy for me. So it's just like, you know. Have you seen Speed Racer?
- [88:53]
A
No, I don't know.
- [88:54]
B
Okay. Okay. Well, it's a.
- [88:55]
D
What?
- [88:55]
B
It's the Wachowskis. It's a Wachowski movie. And there's this line in it. The whole thing is, like, about. It's like, racing is a. It's about making art and capitalism. And the line that the dad is like, do you think you can race and change the world? And Speed Racer is like, well, I don't know, but it's the only thing I know how to do, and I have to do something. And that's how I feel. It's like, well, I'll try using a slide whistle, and maybe that will change trans lives forever and get America on board with trans rights. If I just.
- [89:34]
A
Do you think. I mean, and this is where the. How hard it is for white men comes into play. Like, do you think there's something about the queer experience or the trans experience in particular that is just ripe for humor?
- [89:47]
B
Yes, absolutely. I mean, sometimes I'll be real. With all the gender talk, I feel like an 80s comedian. I'm like. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, women are like this, and guys are like this, and. But they can have whatever genitalia. But I also think that, like, the. The feeling of being a pariah in certain spaces is always funny. You know, being an outsider is, like, classic positioning for good comedy, you know? And I think that. I mean, it's just so frustrating. I was talking with you about this backstage, but, like, everyone feels like they have to have their trans joke. And we. We're hearing from everyone about, like, well, what's their trans joke? And they're almost all so bad. And it's like, everyone is talking about us except for us, and they just, like, it's. It's. It's frustrating mostly because I'm like, that's not what's funny. Like, if you just do this, if you kind of just like. Like, then you'll kind of get it. You know what I mean?
- [91:10]
A
Yeah, There's a lot of funny stuff about it. It just doesn't have to be demeaning.
- [91:14]
B
Exactly.
- [91:15]
A
Yeah, yeah. How has, you know, being a performer and coming into your comedian self while also, like, transitioning, how has that shaped how you see yourself as a trans woman?
- [91:28]
B
Well, I sometimes like to joke that my gender isn't woman. It's woman who lies across a piano.
- [91:38]
A
I see it.
- [91:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, you embody it.
- [91:40]
D
Exactly.
- [91:41]
B
Thank you. Thank you. But, like, honestly, early on, when I was watching tapes of myself, like, iPhone video of myself at stand up shows or at. At my performances, I felt like I was able to embody my womanhood more easily on stage. And I would watch the videos of myself and be like, that's what who she is. That's who I am. And then I would go off stage and it would. It would be. Maybe my shoulders would go up, I'd be a little more scared. But up here, like, I just feel so free in my body that, like, it's just like, it's. It's.
- [92:31]
D
Been cool.
- [92:32]
A
Yeah. One more question and then I think we have to go. Is there a character in like, classic musical theater who you think is canonically trans?
- [92:43]
B
That is such a good question. I actually have. In my solo show, I have a whole medley about this.
- [92:48]
A
Really?
- [92:49]
B
Yes, yes, yes. But let's see.
- [92:53]
E
Sing it.
- [92:58]
B
I think Ariel's trans.
- [93:00]
A
I mean, yeah, totally.
- [93:01]
B
It's about bottom surgery.
- [93:05]
D
Hello.
- [93:06]
A
Yeah, that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Esther.
- [93:10]
B
Thank you so much.
- [93:20]
A
This was such an amazing show and really making this season of Slow Burn has been such a gift for me. Thank you so much for listening and for coming out to celebrate the season. I would be remiss if I did not encourage you to sign up for Slate plus as part of this. You can listen to all seven episodes right now. We also just released a bonus episode with the. Oh yeah, there she is. An interview with the drag queen whose image that is. It comes from a poster made in 1978 to raise funds to fight the Briggs Initiative. In addition to hosting the season of Slow Burn, I also host a podcast called Outward. I would love it if you enjoy Queer Discourse and want some present day version of that. Would love if you gave that a listen too. Thank you so much to Davey Gardner and the Tribeca Audio Team for this opportunity. This was so much fun. Thank you to Katie Rayford, Alexandra Cole, and Emily Hodgkins for making it happen. And again, thank you to all of you. Happy Pride.
- [94:39]
D
Sam.