Live: Party & Bullshit

Summary

Slow Burn: Live – Party & Bullshit (March 18, 2020)

Host: Joel Anderson
Guests: Reverend Conrad Tillard, Eazy Mo B, Nasheem Myrick, Dan Smalls, Ben Westoff

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Overview

This special live episode of Slow Burn—titled "Party & Bullshit"—serves as a prequel to Season 3's deep dive into the intertwined stories of The Notorious B.I.G. (Biggie Smalls) and Tupac Shakur. Recorded in front of a live audience, the episode explores the early friendship between these two icons, their first meetings, pivotal moments in their artistic careers, and the cultural landscape that drove both unity and division within hip hop. The episode features first-hand stories from collaborators and journalists, and a roundtable discussion about the period’s music, violence, and transformation of the hip hop industry.

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Early Career and the Origins of "Party and Bullshit"

[00:00–06:41]

• Setting the Stage in 1992:
  Joel Anderson recounts Christopher Wallace's (Biggie's) transition from hustling to focusing on music, aided by Sean "Puffy" Combs, who signed him to Uptown Records.
• The Last Poets’ Influence:
  The titular phrase "party and bullshit" originally came from the Last Poets’ poem "When the Revolution Comes", which Biggie repurposed to reflect the reality of distraction and survival in Black America.

  "When the revolution comes. But until then, you know and I know niggas will party and bullshit and party and bullshit..." —Reverend Conrad Tillard [04:57]

• Biggie’s First Recordings:
  • Debuted on remixes for Mary J. Blige and Supercat
  • "Party and Bullshit" is written and recorded, reflecting Biggie’s neighborhood life:

    "...all we wanna do is..." —Ezmo B [05:30]
    "...Party and Bullshit came out in the spring of 1993. It was part of the soundtrack for the movie Who’s the Man?" —Joel Anderson [06:52]

• Chico Del Vec:
  Biggie's old friend, describes being in the studio for the recording and triggering a fight captured on the track.

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Biggie & Tupac: First Meeting and Early Friendship

[07:08–14:58]

• Promo Trip to LA:
  Biggie, sent by Puffy to LA for radio promotions, is accompanied by Dan Smalls, who recalls Biggie’s lack of interest in self-promotion compared to his excitement to meet Tupac.
• Mutual Admiration:
  Tupac is at the cusp of stardom, coming from humble Bay Area beginnings and starting to act. The two artists' first meeting is set up accidentally via a weed dealer’s overlapping clientele.

  "Tupac had played party and bullshit over and over again... Their mutual admiration made it easy for them to connect." —Joel Anderson [09:42]

• Legendary Hangout at Tupac’s House:
  Biggie and Tupac quickly bond in Tupac’s home:
  • There’s plentiful weed ("He pulled out so much trees, it was ridiculous..." —Dan Smalls [11:15])
  • Pac cooks lunch for everyone
  • There’s an impromptu freestyle session
  • Pac shows off a bag of guns, signifying trust

  "You not giving strangers guns in your house unless you feel... it's deeper than rap." —Dan Smalls [12:22]

• Biggie’s New Resolve:
  The LA trip stokes Biggie’s ambition for music, marking a turning point in his life.

  "So Biggie went back east with a new drive for music, and he had Tupac to thank for it." —Joel Anderson [14:58]

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Roundtable: Artists, Conflict, and Hip Hop Community

[17:00–43:21]

On Early Predictions, Biggie’s & Pac’s Stardom

• Initial Impressions:
  Nasheem Myrick and Eazy Mo B discuss Biggie’s skill and his star potential.

  "Nah, not like Big. Nah." —Nasheem Myrick [18:13]

Peace-Keeping Amid Turmoil

• Reverend Conrad Tillard, 'Hip Hop Minister':
  Describes his role mediating conflicts, including the infamous Rex-N-Effect vs. Zulu Nation beef—solved with a marathon negotiation at the mosque [22:56].
• Hip hop's Communal Roots:
  Emphasis on how hip hop grew organically from street/community efforts before becoming an industry.

Industry Politics and the East Coast–West Coast Divide

• Clash with the Establishment:
  Stories about high-stakes room meetings—including one with Colin Powell, Suge Knight, and other industry figures—highlight the tension underpinning the era.

  "I just felt like in the room...there was conversation and things that could have been said and that could have happened that could have snuffed out what it eventually became." —Ezmo B [21:10]

• Media’s Role in Fuelling Conflict:
  Vibe Magazine’s coverage of East Coast–West Coast beef contributed to escalating paranoia. Eazy Mo B shares discomfort about being cited in an article—simply for having 'no comment' via his lawyer—which inadvertently stoked rumors [33:42].

Sidelined Collaborations and Missed Opportunities

• "Who Shot Ya?" Origin Story:
  Nasheem Myrick recounts how the track was originally created for a Mary J. Blige interlude for Keith Murray—but, after various twists, ended up with Biggie. Tupac believed the diss was aimed at him, but it was recorded before the infamous shooting [28:15–32:27].

  "He said, I leave you leaking like Michael Jordan’s pops… Of course they didn't put it on the album... But Puff was like, don't worry. We're going to make it a record." —Nasheem Myrick [30:38]

• Working with Both Legends:
  Eazy Mo B details a unique recording session for “Running from the Police” where both Pac and Biggie, plus their respective entourages, packed the studio—highlighting their genuine friendship before beef [36:22].

  "I was there and I got a chance to work with these two while they were friends. So one day when you wake up and you see or hear about, you know, they got beef, I was like, what happened?" —Ezmo B [36:38]

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Cultural Context: Activism, Industry, and Evolving Values

[43:21–47:42]

• Shift from Culture to Industry:
  Tillard describes how, in early days, hip hop functioned as a community tool for peace and self-expression, but commercialization and industry profit motives eroded those ideals.

  "What I feel happened...it became the music industry. And the music industry, like capitalism, is perverse. It has no value judgment. It just wants to make money." —Reverend Conrad Tillard [45:38]

• Media Amplification & Violence:
  The media helped escalate the violence; loss of two giants (Biggie, Tupac) marked a point of no return for the community.
• Call for Unity:
  Myrick:

  "...we have to look back and realize like, we're all we got, you know, we have to maintain this love and respect for each other, because once that's gone, they don't give a fuck about us." [47:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Biggie & Tupac’s Chemistry:

  "They liked each other and they trusted each other and they thought for at least a year or so that they understood each other like nobody else really could." —Joel Anderson [14:58]

• Pac’s Political Theater:

  "What Big and a lot of the New York rap scene didn’t understand was that [Pac’s] political theater took on a realistic dimension." —Reverend Conrad Tillard [37:22]

• On Music Industry Changes:

  "It became the music industry...it just wants to make money... That’s what happened to hip hop...the media played a part too." —Reverend Conrad Tillard [45:38]

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Key Timestamps

• Early influences and “Party and Bullshit”: [00:00–06:52]
• Biggie & Tupac’s first encounter and wild house hangout: [08:12–12:54]
• Roundtable: Biggie’s talent, community organizing, and industry confrontations: [17:00–25:49]
• “Who Shot Ya?” and misinterpreted messages: [27:49–32:27]
• Community mediation and industry critique: [43:21–47:42]
• Call for unity and closing: [47:42]

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Conclusion

"Party & Bullshit" shines a light on the overlooked camaraderie, artistry, and complexities at the heart of Biggie and Tupac’s relationship before industry forces and media narratives inflamed hostilities. It features unique personal accounts from those who knew and created with them, while also serving as a retrospective meditation on what hip hop was—and what it could have remained—had community and artistry not been subsumed by commerce and conflict.

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For listeners wanting the inside story on Biggie and Tupac’s beginnings—and the root causes of hip hop’s most infamous feud—this live episode is essential.

Transcript

[Joel Anderson]

What's up, y'? All? This is Joel Anderson, host of Slow Burn season three, Biggie and Tupac. After we put out our last episode, we took the show on the road for live events on the east and West Coast. It was a great chance to connect with our fans and our critics. Our New York show was packed with hip hop legends, including producers Eazymo B and Nasheem Myrick. We talked about making classic tracks with Big and Pacific and watching both MCs rise in the rap game. We'll get to that conversation later in this show, but first, here's the opening act we used at each of our live events. This one was performed at the Brava Theater in San Francisco. The story we told in Slow Burn season three, BIG and Tupac. It was pretty dark. We started with Tupac getting shot in the lobby of Quad Recording Studios. We ended with two hip hop legends dead. In between came suspicion and paranoia and increasingly violent confrontations. But Biggie and Tupac's relationship began very differently. So tonight, to switch things up, I want to tell you about that beginning. Think of this as episode zero. This is a Biggie and Tupac story that not many people have heard told by someone who was right there with them. How did the two biggest rap superstars of the 90s meet? Did Tupac inspire Biggie to get serious about his career? And did it all have to turn out the way that it did? This is Slow Burn Live. I'm your host, Joel Anderson, and this is the prequel Party and Bullshit. Okay, so let's go back to 1992. Christopher Wallace was a small time hustler from Brooklyn. He'd been arrested for dealing crack in North Carolina, but now he'd stopped selling, he was starting to get serious about his music. The man who convinced Biggie to get out of the streets was Sean Puffy Combs. Puffy was then a rising executive at Uptown Records, one of the biggest labels in black music. In July 1992, Big made his Uptown debut on the remix of Mary J. Blige's hit Real Love.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Look up in the sky. It's a bird, it's a plane. Nope, it's Mary J. Ain't a damn thing.

[Joel Anderson]

His next appearance came on another remix, this one by the dancehall artist Supercat. Biggie opened with a line that he'd come back to later in his career.

[Ezmo B]

Past the clock I see you shivering Check the flavor Biggie Smalls is delivering lyrical lyrics is flowing.

[Joel Anderson]

Biggie was off to a good start, but his music wasn't bringing him much money. Yet he was about to become a father, and he couldn't take care of a family on Puffy and Uptown's loose promises of future riches. He needed cash, and he needed it now. And the fast money of the drug game was hard to resist. Here's Biggie's childhood friend, Chico Del Vec.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

And it was a time where he was like, yo, I gotta really make some real money. Like, it was hard when he was like, man, I'm ready to just do anything. Just get some money just to feed, you know, help my daughter out.

[Joel Anderson]

Puffy wanted to keep Biggie out of trouble and out of jail. He did that by signing Biggie to a recording contract. Now, it wasn't an enormous deal by music industry standards. Uptown paid Biggie $125,000. There wasn't much left after recording costs and other expenses, but it was enough to keep him making music. Now it was time for Biggie to record a track of his own. The result was Partying Bullshit. That phrase came from an old spoken word anthem by the Last Poets. The Last Poets were musicians and writers from Harlem who emerged out of the black nationalist movement of the 1960s. They got their start reciting poems in the park. They helped lay the foundation for hip hop in their song when the Revolution Comes. The Last Poets used the term party and bullshit to refer to all the things that distracted black Americans from political activism.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

When the revolution comes. But until then, you know and I know niggas will party and bullshit and party and bullshit and party and bullshit and party and bullshit.

[Joel Anderson]

Biggie saw the same systemic failures the Last Poet saw, but he came to a different conclusion. He cared less about revolution than about survival. He needed to get paid. So he took that phrase party and bullshit and gave it his own spin.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Dumbing out just me and my crew.

[Ezmo B]

Cause all we wanna do is.

[Joel Anderson]

Biggie made a record that reflected the realities of his life. Hanging out with friends, the constant threat of street violence, the weed and alcohol he needed to manage it all.

[Ezmo B]

Hugs from the honeys Pounds from the.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Rough neck See my man say that I knew from said he had beef Ask me if I had my piece sure too 2.22s in my shoes Holla if you need me love I'm in.

[Ezmo B]

The house Roaming stroke See what the honeys is about Mo wet poppin hoe.

[Joel Anderson]

Popping ain't no stopping Biggie brought Chico Del Vec with him the day he recorded Partying Bullshit. Chico had helped Biggie get started in the drug game when they were growing up in Brooklyn. So Biggie Made sure his longtime friend came along for the ride.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

We was in a studio white, when he laid the vocals down and the certain scene came on, he was like. Chumps was thrown and a fight broke out. And, you know, when the record scratched and his paws and a fucking fight broke out.

[Joel Anderson]

And he was like, yo, yo, yo.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

That was me and him in the studio and that was me saying, yo, yo, Big yo, yo, hey, yo, hey, yo, hey, yo.

[Joel Anderson]

Party and Bullshit came out in the spring of 1993. It was part of the soundtrack for the movie who's the Man? Neither the movie nor the song were hits, but the track launched Biggie's solo career. Then Dan Smalls was an intern at.

[Dan Smalls]

Uptown Records, coming from where he came from, and some guy says he's gonna give him a record deal and then he does his record and it ends up on the soundtrack of a movie. And, you know, that was his vehicle to at least begin starting to tell his story.

[Joel Anderson]

Biggie was an artist now, but he needed to get his music heard. After Party and Bullshit came out, Puffy sent him to Los Angeles for a promo tour. The plan was to do some interviews with local radio stations, perform at a nightclub and head right back to New York. Biggie didn't go to LA alone. Puffy tasked Dan Smalls with making sure Big did what he was supposed to do. That was gonna be a challenge because Biggie wasn't all that focused on self promotion.

[Dan Smalls]

We're on a plane and we're talking about LA artists that he liked or, you know, or he thought was cool or he wanted to meet. So we're like, you know, who he's rocking with at the time. He liked MC8 and there was somebody else, and then there was Tupac.

[Joel Anderson]

Tupac was primed to break out as rap's next big star. He'd recently moved from Oakland to Los Angeles to be closer to the opportunities that were coming his way. Here's music journalist Ben Westoff. Tupac was going through an almost unbelievable transformation. He had been pretty much homeless when he was living in the Bay Area for a time, sleeping on friends couches and stuff like that. And now all of a sudden, he was signed to a major label. He was releasing successful albums, he was becoming a movie star. Tupac and Biggie got introduced by an intermediary. And it was totally by accident when Biggie and Dan Smalls landed in la, their first priority was getting Biggie some of that California chronic. The dealer they called said he'd be there soon.

[Dan Smalls]

He's like, yo, I Gotta make a stop and then I'm coming to you. I'm like, nah, Biggie needs this right now.

[Joel Anderson]

But the dealer, he had another client to visit first.

[Dan Smalls]

And he's like, I gotta make a stop and go drop something to Tupac.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

I'm like, pac, what?

[Dan Smalls]

I'm like, yo, Big wants to meet him. He was like, I'll tell him. So 20 minutes later, he comes up. We come downstairs, and he's like, oh, yeah. I told Pac that you wanted to meet him. He said, you can come by. You gonna pull up? We like, word. 10, 15 minutes later, Pac pull up.

[Joel Anderson]

Biggie didn't know it then, but Tupac was also a fan of his. When Tupac was filming Poetic justice, he'd played party and bullshit over and over again. Tupac was the son of a black panther. He'd grown up with radical black politics. He would have seemed more naturally aligned with the last poets. But he couldn't deny Big's talent and the catchiness of the song. Their mutual admiration made it easy for them to connect. Here's Ben Westoff. They both recognized in the other one someone with this incredible talent. But not just that. They were different. You know, Biggie had this sort of perfect flow, whereas Tupac was about these bigger ideas. When Tupac arrived at Big's hotel in la, they had instant chemistry. They told jokes and swapped stories about their careers. And just as importantly, they wanted to smoke that weed that had just arrived. Soon a couple other friends showed up. Now Dance Malls is trying to figure out how to pull Biggie away to get some work done. And then Tupac invited everyone to move the party to his house.

[Dan Smalls]

And I'm like, nah, we gotta go, you know, we gotta go do some radio. We gotta go. And Big look at me like, yo, damn. Like, what are you talking about? Like, we about to go to Pac House.

[Joel Anderson]

That was that big road in Pac's car. And Dan Smalls followed them in his rental. When they got to the house, they discovered Pac was an incredibly gracious host. There was weed.

[Dan Smalls]

He pulled out so much trees, it was ridiculous. He must have pounds. And that was right up Biggs alley.

[Joel Anderson]

There was food.

[Dan Smalls]

Pa cooked us lunch. He made steak and burgers and fries. And we sitting there just eating the whole. Now the whole day's gone by. We haven't done nothing. We haven't done no work, no nothing.

[Joel Anderson]

There was music.

[Dan Smalls]

Next thing you know, they started a freestyle session. And if I would have had a smartphone back then, I would have had the illest freestyle session between Tupac Biggie and Greg. Nice. That would have been the classic video.

[Joel Anderson]

And there were guns.

[Dan Smalls]

Pac go in his bedroom and come out with one of them army bags, and he dumps on the floor like, 30 guns. Now everybody's fascinated with all the guns. And now we just sitting in the house and playing with the guns and we talking about going to the gun range and all this craziness.

[Joel Anderson]

By the time they left the house, Biggie had gone from fans to friends.

[Dan Smalls]

I felt like he felt like there was some type of, you know, realness. And then on top of that, well, then when he brought the guns out, like, you not giving strangers guns in your house unless you feel. Cause you like, you know, we from the hood, cattle, stick you up or, you know, anything could pop up. But you only doing that if you feel like you feel something. Like you feel like there's some type of. It's deeper than rap. It's deeper than whatever. So they felt something. And after that, they was inseparable.

[Joel Anderson]

So at this point, Dan Smalls had a problem. Biggie had forgotten he'd gone out to California for business. He'd blown off the interview they had scheduled at a radio station. When they got back to their hotel room, Dan Smalls had to check in with Puffy.

[Dan Smalls]

And Puff was like, yo, did y' all go to radio? And we was like, big. Big didn't even say nothing. He just looked at me. He was like, yo, I don't do promotion. And I'm looking at him like, mother, like. So then Puff looked at me like, yo, so what do y' all do all day? I'm like, yo, we went to Pac House and they used to smoked out. And he was like, pac's. And I'm like, yeah. He was like, is he coming to the show? And I'm like, yeah. He's like, all right, well, then, good day.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Then.

[Joel Anderson]

A few days later, Biggie had his show at the Glam Slam nightclub. The Glam Slam was owned by Prince. It took its name from the second single on his album, love Sexy. Tupac showed up at Biggie's hotel before the show and rode over with him. This was a big night for Biggie. A show in la, a bid to expand his audience beyond the East Coast. And Tupac was right there with him. Even joining Biggie on stage, he felt.

[Dan Smalls]

Like it was, you know, that was his man and he was gonna ride with it. So to see Pac jumping around on Big and Big, they was, you know, hugging.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

It was all love.

[Dan Smalls]

It was just like they were friends. You would have thought they knew each other before that day.

[Joel Anderson]

Biggie's first trip to California couldn't have gone much better. Tupac had done what Puffy could not. He'd shown Biggie would have waited. If he left small time drug dealing.

[Dan Smalls]

Behind, you couldn't tell Big nothing like that was. And I think that might have fueled his energy, like his hunger. Like, if this is what this feel like and this is what this. He can't wait to just keep going and seeing where else it can go for. All we knew is we just took over L. A.

[Joel Anderson]

So Biggie went back east with a new drive for music, and he had Tupac to thank for it. Biggie and Tupac would perform together several times that summer, including at the Palladium in Manhattan. At that point, they were still good friends. And then in October 1993, Tupac came back to New York to film a movie, above the Rim. That's when he started to hang out with Haitian Jack. That's also when he met Ayanna Jackson. If you listen to season three of Slow Burn, you know what happened from there. But I hope tonight you got a taste of who Biggie and Tupac were before everything went bad. They liked each other and they trusted each other and they thought for at least a year or so that they understood each other like nobody else really could. Thank you. Let's take a quick break. Welcome back, y'. All. So for our show at the New School in New York City, we invited some greats onto the stage for a roundtable about Biggie and Pac. We talked about what they were like as artists and young men. I was joined by Reverend Conrad Tillard. In the 90s, he headed the Nation of Islam's mosque in Harlem and was known as the Hip Hop Minister, a goodwill ambassador who often stepped in when things got tense in the rap world. Also Eazy, Mo B. He's been working in hip hop since the 80s and may be best known for his groundbreaking work with Biggie. Mo produced about half of Big's debut album, Ready to Die. And Nasheem Myrick. He was one of the original members of the Hitmen, Bad Boy's in house production team that pumped out hit after hit in the 90s, including Big's incendiary classic, who Shot Ya? The first thing I wanted to know from Nasheem was what drew him to work with Big.

[Nasheem Myrick]

I'm a hip hop connoisseur, so I knew once I heard Party and Bullshit, that was my favorite record off of that soundtrack, you know, And I knew Puff had something to do with that. Which he was a friend of mine. So I was just waiting till the day I want to meet Big. I never thought I would work with him. Cause I wasn't a producer at the time. But, yeah, I was impressed.

[Joel Anderson]

So y' all both obviously had a good sense of him as an artist. Before Ready to Die comes out, y' all seen him build. Did y' all know, like, did y' all know that Big was gonna become Big? You know what I mean? You know that he was gonna be a star.

[Ezmo B]

It's hard to remember, too. Nas, you was there in the soundtrack, right?

[Nasheem Myrick]

I knew.

[Ezmo B]

Right, right.

[Nasheem Myrick]

I wasn't there for the soundtrack. Nah, I was around, but I wasn't there yet. But I came in right after the soundtrack. Right. Like, why the soundtrack's rocking?

[Ezmo B]

I'm approaching. Cause I don't remember everything. Sometimes it's hard to jog your memory.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Yeah, I knew Big. He had that personality he had. And he definitely had the skills.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, but y' all knew a lot of people that had skills.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Nah, not like Big. Nah.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, Nah. Okay, okay, okay. Reverend Tillard.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Yes.

[Joel Anderson]

This is the 90s. You're in Harlem. You're seeing a lot of what hip hop artists are talking about in their music. And when I interviewed you a few months ago, you said you were right in the middle of it. How did you get in the middle of it?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Well, I guess you would have to say we had a lot of intersectionality back then. I was a minister. I'm still a minister. But we all had a common interest at the time. It was the community. Hip hop in those days was more community centric. It was not really yet an industry in the late 80s and 90s. It was young people in the community. And so our biggest message was, stop the killing. No self destruction. And so we always ran into each other. We were always working together. In fact, last time I saw Easy Mo B, I think he won't mind when I tell this story.

[Joel Anderson]

Please do. Please do.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

He cursed out Colin Powell. And I challenged. And I challenged Colin Powell and said, don't take. Tell us not to kill each other. East coast, West Coast. And you just led a war looking for weapons of mass destruction. So we just were together a lot. And everybody came through March number seven in those days. So.

[Ezmo B]

Yeah, well, let me clarify.

[Joel Anderson]

I gotta clarify.

[Ezmo B]

Cause we not gonna leave here today with Easymo B cursing out Colin Powell. It wasn't that way. First of all, wasn't it the vibe?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Well, Quincy Jones seminar meeting. Yeah, it was a vibe. No, it was a private meeting. Quincy Jones called at the Peninsula Hotel.

[Ezmo B]

So at the time, that was when the East Coast, west coast thing was really starting to broil. And I remember I was sitting in the room. I remember it all clearly. I got dressed up that day, too. I looked a little close to you that day. I was sitting, like, here in the back, left in the room. And like, Suge Knight and them. Excuse me, Suge Knight and them was like. And Dre was like, in the front on the right. And so they got to a certain point of the conversation, and I don't know, I just felt like there was pussyfooting going on. We had a real, real serious matter going on at the time that I felt like, needed to be dealt with. I just felt like in the room that day, there was conversation and things that could have been said and that could have happened that maybe could have snuffed out what it eventually became. And a lot of people, maybe they didn't understand my outburst that day. But my feeling was like, come on, man, let's work this out. Let's get to the core of the matter.

[Joel Anderson]

So you didn't run up on Colin Powell?

[Ezmo B]

No.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay.

[Ezmo B]

I think. You know what? Just being at the. And if it is recorded, I think it's still. You can find that footage on a dvd. I was telling Conrad about it earlier back in the green room. I think you can find that footage on a hip hop documentary DV that they had came out with vaguely. I think I remember this message to the President. If anybody can find that, you'll see it. So I think the tone of voice and how just like, ugh, I was with it. Like, a lot of people probably didn't understand it, but I've always been for peace. I wanted peace, man. That was it.

[Joel Anderson]

Can y' all just run through real quick who all was there then? Because this sounds like a crazy. I mean, Colin Powell, Suge Knight, Chuck.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

D, Biggie Smalls, DJ Quick, Suge Knight, Dr. Dre. Dr. Dre, Quincy Jones, Colin Powell. I mean, everybody. I can't remember everybody was there.

[Joel Anderson]

Where is this? Where did this happen?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

At the Peninsula Hotel.

[Joel Anderson]

The Peninsula, New York. Okay. Okay.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Quincy Jones, you know, obviously was very concerned about the East Coast, West Coast. Cause Kidada was going with Tupac at the time. And so he was very. And he owned Vibe magazine. So he was very involved in what was going on. In fact, whenever Kidada would come to New York, he would call us and we would do the security for her. So he was very much involved in the hip hop scenes.

[Ezmo B]

Wow. So I did not curse out. Okay, leave here.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

He kept it real.

[Joel Anderson]

That's what's up. That's crazy. I gotta ask you, though, about one more conflict. And we talked about this briefly because it's so crazy. And I want you to tell people about it. Please tell me the Rex and Effect story.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Okay, So I got a call from Afrika Bambaata. He came by to see me and he said there was a war that was brewing, and it was between the Zulu nation and some young brothers out of Harlem called Pasi Deep. And Q Tip, who is a member of the Zulu nation, was beaten badly. And it had reached a point where they were just about to go to war. And so we had them in the mosque. It was about 150 Zulu nation and Rex and Effects Posse Deep, which was their crew, Harlem Bronx. And fortunately, we were able to work with them through the night. Took about seven hours. And we were able to resolve the matter. And it was a great meeting. Legendary Bo was the head of the Shaka Zulu security. He was killed in Castle Hill in a Laundromat. And showbiz of showbiz and AG was initially arrested for that crime, but he didn't do it. He was released. But it was an example. This is 93. So this is right before East Coast, West Coast. And it was an example of one of the beefs that we worked together to help resolve at that time. Fortunately, that one we were able to resolve.

[Joel Anderson]

One of the precipitating events of this beef, though, involves Q Tip, doesn't it?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Right. Well, he was beaten.

[Nasheem Myrick]

He.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

And you may remember this. It was at one of the Source of Vibe party, when Q Tip got an award. Somebody rushed the stage, man, I was just.

[Ezmo B]

I was.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

You remember that, right?

[Ezmo B]

Why am I always at the seat of controversy?

[Nasheem Myrick]

Because.

[Ezmo B]

Okay, yo, when you spoke on that, I was like, I want to find a way to bring that up, because today is my day of clarity.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

All right, all right.

[Ezmo B]

What you saw and what happened was, okay, look, when I started to record with Tupac, I used to have all my peoples from around the way in Brooklyn come to the studio. That being rapping is fundamental. A group that I was in. And so when Tupac, when he had to make an appearance at the Source Awards to perform, he asked us to come along with him. He's like, yo, y' all want to come out on stage with me? I said, yeah, worst thing that ever happened that day. Whoever was, okay. I forgot the name of the girl. I just met her Back there, this person was in the same position she was in. Like, okay, hold on. All right, all right.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Come on, go, go.

[Ezmo B]

The person that was controlling, you know, when you come out said, all right.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Come on, come on, go.

[Ezmo B]

And so we came out with Tupac. Somehow when he came out, whoever had the Q finger on the tape deck started the music. And all the while, Q Tip is on the podium speaking. And he turned and looked to the left, like, we coming out on the stage.

[Dan Smalls]

Parker's like, yeah, yeah. What?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Why?

[Ezmo B]

He's performing? And I'm like, oh, no. Right after. Afterwards, I had to go backstage, went over to Q Tip. I was like, yo, sorry, man. Apologies. I don't know what that was. Somebody started the music, and I could tell Q Tip was not feeling me. He just. Because I came over and did enough to try to straighten it out. He did say, like, yeah, yeah. But after that, he just walked off. I could tell he was pissed, and I would have been, too, but it was a misunderstanding about the bringing out of Tupac. Sometimes I think. And I don't know who that was that was controlling that. And with the aura of the tension that was going on at the time. Later, when I look at it, I think about it and say, was that set up? Was it to cause that? You know what I mean? And then he's, okay. If we gotta give people labels, Tupac is West Coast. You got the thing going on. I'm east coast with rapping is fundamental. They come up, people in the audience like, what the heck is going on? Had to. Did my best to straighten it out.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, at the very least, the logistics of the Source Awards were like, a problem. They had to work that out, right?

[Ezmo B]

Yeah. After that, I've seen Tip, and to this day, we're cool. I believe we cool. I want us to be cool.

[Joel Anderson]

Nasheem, this for you right here. Do you mind if we cue something up for you?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Who shot y'?

[Joel Anderson]

All?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Separate the weak from the opps Leap hard to creep them Brooklyn streets It's on, nigga. Fuck all that bickering. Beef. Beef.

[Joel Anderson]

You like that, huh? When you hear that, what comes to mind? What do you think about?

[Nasheem Myrick]

I mean, this is like. I guess everyone thinks this is, like, my greatest record to date, you know, so. But that was a great song, though, even the way it came about. Because the way it came about, that wasn't big song, you know?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Will you please tell that story?

[Nasheem Myrick]

Well, the way it came about is Puff told me one day list we was working on the Mary album.

[Dan Smalls]

My Life album.

[Nasheem Myrick]

And before we turned in the album, he needed an interlude, a hip hop interlude. He wanted. So he needed a track, a hip hop track for Keith Murray to be on it. And one day I had some time in the studio, and I came up with that track. I mean, like, five, 10 minutes. And he heard the track, he brought Andre Arel over to the studio. They loved it. And we went to record it with Keith Murray. Now, Keith Murray couldn't finish it for some reason.

[Joel Anderson]

What do you mean?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

I don't know. Why? Because he went to jail.

[Joel Anderson]

No, he gonna tell him.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

No.

[Joel Anderson]

He gonna tell him no.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Totally different spectrum.

[Joel Anderson]

Why?

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Because he did go away.

[Nasheem Myrick]

No, he went away.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

But no, he.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Couldn'T finish it because other forces. But he was pressed for time. And Puff even brought ll in to listen to the track and write to it and. But one day. But we was crushed for time. I mean, we had to have it turned in that weekend. And Puff was like, yo, go find your man Big and tell him you got this track and we need him on it. And he must have talked to him, you know, spoke to him about the track prior to me seeing Big. And Big was like, nah, no problem. I'll be at the studio. So Big comes through and he records the track. The first verse, and it was so powerful. The first verse was so crazy. But at the end of that first verse, he said, I leave you leaking like Michael Jordan's pops. And that's when Michael Jordan's pops had just got murdered.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, man.

[Nasheem Myrick]

So I'm like, yo, that's not gonna make the album. I was like, yo, this whole night, this whole effort is like. Like n void. It's like, it's N void. So Big is like, yeah, I'm keeping it just like that. He had to get on the plane, like, in the next two hours. I'm keeping it just like that. I'm like, ah, forget it, man. So of course they didn't put it on the album, right? But Puff was like, don't worry. We going to make it a record. You know, he added his second verse. We're in the studio. I mean, Big must have had all of Brooklyn in the studio that night. I walk in the studio, I can't even see in front of me that it's so thick. The blunt is so thick in the air, you know, I'm making my way to the console, and everybody's bugging in there. We must have played that record 80 times that night.

[Joel Anderson]

Wow. And y' all just knew.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Yeah. I mean, it was crazy. But you know, and Puff is. You know, they're in the chorus, Puff is bugging, and he's like, yo, I don't know, man, we gotta listen to this in the morning. Cause I think I'm bugging, you know? But, yeah, that record, when they came out, well, you seen the effect it had. People even thought it was about them.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Well, that's what was so amazing about it, to hear that it wasn't Big Song. Tupac thought it was Big Song.

[Nasheem Myrick]

And it was done that first verse, and I believe the second verse was done before Tupac even got shot. You know, Tupac is not on our mind during that record.

[Joel Anderson]

Right. And you even talk. You told me about this. We interviewed the last time. You said, like, you were just totally bewildered that anybody could have ever thought. Yeah, that.

[Nasheem Myrick]

That Pac would think that.

[Joel Anderson]

Right.

[Nasheem Myrick]

And. But you listen to the record, you look at the situation, you like, how could we miss that? You know, it's like, we should have been more adapt and more, you know? And I'm like, wow. But it's just.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

That's.

[Ezmo B]

That's.

[Nasheem Myrick]

That's rap, you know? Rap is real.

[Joel Anderson]

That's real. We're gonna take another break. Back in a minute. All right, let's get back to my interview with Reverend Conrad Tillard, formerly known as the Hip Hop Minister and legendary producers Nasheem Myrick and Ezmo B. The following is from our live show at the New School in New York City. Mo B. You told us during our first cause you worked with Pac and you worked with him when he was. During the trial.

[Ezmo B]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

And you said that it felt like people were trying to pull you in to this beef. Right. That they wanted you to take sides. Right.

[Ezmo B]

Well, not that anybody literally pulled me to the side and spoke to me and wanted me to become embroiled in a war or anything, but Vibe again. I saved this issue. This magazine, too. I think it had Biggie on the front of it. And they had an article in there where basically it dealt with the East Coast, west coast situation at the time. And what they did in the article is they went around to different key figures in the business, not just limited to hip hop either. And everybody gave their account of the East Coast, west coast thing, what they felt about it at the time. I don't know why they even had to just print that. Why would they just. Why wouldn't they just, like, totally not even put me in there? Okay. So they have all the names and the replies, responses. It gets to my name in there and it says, easy, Mobi's. Lawyer says he has no comment. I'm like, why couldn't you just not put me in there at all? So that in itself, you know, caused something like, oh, well, why he gotta have his lawyer saying no? What it is, is I did tell my lawyer because the request was sent through him and I was like, oh, no, no, I don't have no comment. He's like, that's what I could tell him. Say, yeah, it came out. And they said that's what I told them. I'm like, wow. Wow. But overall, I didn't wanna. I never ever wanted any part in that. And even modern day, leading all the way up to now, whenever the question of Big and Pac comes up, I never, ever try to champion the beef. I always have always tried to show that there was a time of peace. And the proof is that I worked with them separately and together. The together was on this song called Running from the Police. It was remixed by eminem in what, 0304, something like that? Yeah. And knocked down to just the title of Running. But originally it was Running from the Police. I remember it clearly. We recorded it in unique recording studio in the. On the top floor, the C room. And Biggie was in there. He had all his people in there, Junior MAFIA and all his people. Pac, he had the outlaws and all his people up in.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Yeah, stretching him.

[Ezmo B]

And I had the whole lot and I had the whole Lafayette and I had the whole Lafayette Gardens up in there. Projects I was from. It was so tight in there that the engineer actually had to like lean over the board like this just to work. I remember that day.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Wow.

[Ezmo B]

That's just how full the room was. But the picture that I'm trying to paint is that that's the proof. I was there and I got a chance to work with these two while they were friends. So one day when you wake up and you see or hear about, you know, they got beef, I was like, what happened? That was my position.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, that must. I mean, just quick. That must have. That must have been a crazy scene. Like, I mean, it was love between those dudes, all of them.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Yeah, it was still love with Big and, you know, with Pop Big though he was bugging, of course, but still, we didn't understand it.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Can I say something about that?

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, man, please.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

See, you have to understand. Tupac was a child of the movement. Tupac spoke Panther speak. He really spoke in the vernacular. And he had the cadence and the political ideology of the Panthers. What Big And a lot of the New York rap scene didn't understand was that was political theater, political rhetoric that PAC was running. And he was so skillful at it that it took on a realistic dimension. But really, when you listen to what PAC was saying about the East Coast, west coast overthrowing the government of Bad Boy, that's Panther speak. That's straight from the 1960s. But the reality was, you know, if the East Coast, west coast beef was real, I mean, Ezmo B, I think, is talking about Kevin Powell's articles and vibes chronicled a lot of this stuff. But you gotta remember that was not an era of social media. So these were real beefs. New York rappers would not even go to California, with very few exceptions in those days. And, you know, when Snoop and Bad Boy, I mean, Death Row came here, they got shot at when they were doing the video, right? And when they came here, they came deep. I mean, really, really very deep. So it was unfortunate at that time, but because the gang element was very much a part. It really wasn't New York scene, but the gang element was really a part of the west coast rap scene. And that added a level of violence and tension.

[Joel Anderson]

I want to ask you, you told me once that you were supposed to visit Pacific up at Dannemore, right? The Clinton Correctional Facility when Pac is serving out his sentence for sexual abuse.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Well, I talked to him quite a bit when he was in prison. He had a wonderful wife named Keisha. And she's an unsung hero. I hate to think of her as being a prison wife because she really loved him and really cared about him. And she made sure that people did not forget about him. Because, remember, he wasn't that great superstar, are an icon that people think of him as. Now, he was a young rapper, he had a lot of talent, but he was a brother in jail. And he had to have someone that cared about him. And she did. And so we talked quite a bit. And I did have a meeting to go. And Minister Nelson, our prison minister, had my car gassed up out front. We were about to make that long trip. Something happened, I didn't go.

[Nasheem Myrick]

And.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

And I always wondered because whenever I got was around Pac, he had a million things going on. I wanted to sit face to face when he was still. And I think we could have said something to him to appeal to what he already knew, but we didn't get that chance. And when he came out, he was with Death Row. And I didn't see him again because we had done the security for him when he was on trial at. When he shot in the wheelchair, you see the brothers wheeling him? Those were the brothers. So I just didn't see him again when he came out.

[Joel Anderson]

Man, I got a time card, but we still got a little bit more time. And I got a lot more questions. So let's actually go to you, Nasheem. So you're working with Biggie. Ready to Die's come out. You're working on a second album. You're a bad boy. What is it like at this time? Because we've heard a lot about, like, what was going on with Death Row, but you right there in a inner sanctum of bad boy. What was it like for y'? All?

[Nasheem Myrick]

Well, we was focused on what we need to do. The Death Row situation was a downer, you know, because we was about unity and we knew what we could do if we were together. I always thought Pac, me, myself, I always thought this was a plan for Pac, you know what I'm saying? Pac had this planet planned out, and if he lived long enough, he would have brought things together. That's always thought that. Plus, the people who Pac was with when he got shot at that studio, these are people I grew up with from around my way. You know, Nichols, that was the road manager. Stretch was there. They eat moneybags. A friend of mine also, he went to see Pac when he was in jail. I think he was on the island at the time. And he told Pac, yeah, it wasn't big in them. He told Pac that. But Pac's. And they told me the story, and Pac was like, damn, already did the Vibe interview. So I guess I think Pac is a smart dude, seeing what I know from him, you know, I met him a few times in the hood and where he portrayed in public. So I figured he had to run with that. You know, I figured he had to run with the story. Plus, the story plays a good part for him. You understand? Yeah, eventually the story plays a good part in his role. He plays a good role in that.

[Joel Anderson]

It was theater.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

He was a thespian. People forget that.

[Nasheem Myrick]

I don't think. I don't. I don't think he really wanted it to get to the point. It was.

[Joel Anderson]

Reverend Tillard, you've been very outspoken about what happened to hip hop, Post Big and Pac, the changes in the music industry. Can you explain to people what you think happened in the music industry after.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Well, I think what happened was, you know, I introduced Suge Knight to Kool Herc and Afrika Bambana, and we met at Sylvia's. We had met the day before when they were Here at the Grammys, I think in 93. I went upstairs, 43rd floor. I had no idea who Suge Knight was at the time. Jamie Brown of Sister to Sister magazine. She saw us settle the beef between Rex and Effects and Tribe called questions. She said, minister, I want you to meet with Suge. Now, keep in mind, this is not this day of enlightenment. When a guy named Suge in the record industry, I wasn't the least bit worried about him being tough or anything. So I went to see him with one man. And I got off the elevator, and it was about 50 bloods, muscle bound, buntry, neck bone, all of these that you've heard about. And they take me to the room, and Mary J. Blige is there, kc, MC Rage. We're talking, and Suge comes out. He was angry because what I didn't know was the brothers. He had been shaking down Andre Harrell and Russell Simmons. And we had the security was the checkmate. So we put the brothers there so he couldn't do what he was doing. So anyway, make a long story short, we had to stop the meeting that day. And I told him, let's meet tomorrow up in Harlem. When he came up to Harlem the next day, he came with MC Rage, a baby. I think that was neck bones baby or heroin. Heron's baby in a cab. Wow. I had 200 men, nation of Islam, Zulu nation soldiers. He got out of that cab, and he knew he was outnumbered that day. But we went into Sylvia's and I introduced him to Bam and Herc, and I said to him, this is what happened to the music. I said, you know, what they created was a cultural phenomenon to stop people from killing. And they did it for the love and the culture. What you do is the music industry. And what I feel happened to no longer became a culture of young people based in the community, and it became the music industry. And the music industry, like capitalism, is perverse. It has no value judgment. It just wants to make money. I remember one of the executives that I was trying to get to help the young people in Harlem back then. I said, you know, you all should be concerned about these young people, young people. She said, the only thing we're concerned about young people is getting that $20 out of their pocket. So that's what happened to the music. That's what happened to hip hop, east coast, west Coast. The violence didn't help the media, too. The media played a part.

[Ezmo B]

They helped pump it up.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

Yeah, but when you lose two of the greatest stars, so, you know, that was responsibility the community should have taken. I guess the music industry said they could never go there again, but where it went, it became antithetical to the industry and really helped to destroy a lot of the possibility, the hope, the unity. Think about all the groups in those days that had uplifting messages, and think about what groups are talking about today. I mean, we don't even talk about Digable Planets. We don't even talk about the brand new. All these groups that were there. That's what happened, in my view.

[Joel Anderson]

That's real. Do y' all have anything to add to that?

[Ezmo B]

That's. That's it. Pretty much. I'll just. NAS you. You wanted to.

[Nasheem Myrick]

Well, I just say. I just say we have to look back and realize like we're all we got, you know, we have to maintain this love and respect for each other, because once that's gone, they don't give a fuck about us. No one does in this country. And this. This culture we have is so special to all of us. So we need. We need to treasure it.

[Joel Anderson]

That's real. Yeah, I think that's a fitting stopping point. I kept y' all over. I could talk with y' all forever, but I can't. Unfortunately, we have to do this again at some point. I really, really appreciate Maya. You felt you. Gentlemen, man, thank you so much for coming down here tonight. A round of applause. Reverend Tiller, Nasheem Myrick. Easy Mo B.

[Nasheem Myrick]

All right.

[Joel Anderson]

Massive, massive thanks to everybody who came out to our live shows. Slow Burn is a production of Slate Plus, Slate's membership program. Our Slate plus members get an entire bonus episode of the show every week with all kinds of extra material, exclusive interviews, roundtables, and more of the crazy stuff we found while researching the show. Joining Slate plus is also a great way to support this show and our other podcasts. If you like Slow Burn, help us make it. Join Slate [e-mail] Slowburn for just $35 for your first year, Slate plus members get to hear an additional interview next week from one of our other live shows. My interview with hip hop artist Tracy Lee, who collaborated with Biggie on the song Keep youp Hands High. He told us about being with Biggie on the night Big was killed. To listen to that and all the other bonus episodes we had this season, Sign up for Slate [e-mail] Slowburn thanks again to all of our New York guests, and to our DJ Don Will, our fantastic researcher Sophie Summergrad, to my brother, Slow Burn producer Christopher Johnson, and and to the executive producer of Slate Live Faith Smith. Thanks also to our editors Gabriel Roth and Josh Levine, to our Director of Media Relations, Katie Rayford, to the Do Everything, Britt Pulley, to our friends at Slate, and to the folks at the New School. Special thanks goes out to our Technical Director, Merritt Jacob, and to our mix engineer, Paul Mounsey. And thank you for listening. Peace.

[Reverend Conrad Tillard]

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