Slow Burn Live: Keyholes

Podcast: Slow Burn
Host: Leon Neyfakh
Guests: Ruth Marcus (Washington Post), Rick Perlstein (historian)
Recording Date: November 28, 2018

Episode Overview

This live episode of Slow Burn revisits the Clinton impeachment era, focusing on lesser-known but pivotal individuals and moments that shaped the scandal and its aftermath. Host Leon Neyfakh weaves a narrative around Webster Hubbell, a close Clinton ally, using his story to probe deeper questions about how history unfolds and why certain players and events become central to the public memory. The show features highlights from live tour stops and includes in-depth interviews with Washington Post's Ruth Marcus and conservative movement historian Rick Perlstein. Together, they explore the roots of Clinton hatred, the inevitable escalation of minor scandals, and how the political right found renewed purpose in opposing the Clintons.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Webster Hubbell Story—A 'Keyhole' Into History

[02:38–19:08]

• Webster Hubbell’s Rise and Fall

  • Hubbell, a close friend of Bill and Hillary Clinton from their Arkansas days, is depicted as both minor and pivotal in the Clinton saga.
  • His trajectory: Football hopeful, then law school and Rose Law Firm, then Associate Attorney General under Clinton.
  • Accused of overbilling clients at Rose Law (“stealing about $400,000”), he resigns and pleads guilty to tax charges.
  • His legal troubles dovetail with the Whitewater investigation, providing Ken Starr a legal and narrative entry point into the Clinton administration’s dealings.

• Hubbell’s Loyalty and the 'Hush Money' Allegations

  • Hubbell doesn’t “flip” on Clintons despite intense pressure and alleged 'hush payments' from Clinton friends, particularly via Revlon (where Vernon Jordan was a board member).
  • Starr's team uses this pattern as precedent when Monica Lewinsky’s story breaks—citing the similarities in attempted silence.

• Why This Matters

  • The story illustrates how minor figures and arbitrary connections can have massive consequences.

    “Even the most consequential players in a story can fall out of the narrative that gets passed down to us through our collective memory. Webster Hubble is one such player…” — Leon Neyfakh [12:45]

  • Raises the question: Is history a series of arbitrary Rube Goldberg-like accidents, a product of individual choices, or driven by institutional inevitabilities?

• Thematic Reflection on Historical Process

  • Neyfakh uses the “keyhole” as metaphor for the small details that open up entire historical episodes, arguing we may only recognize the real inflection points with hindsight.

    “Maybe then in 10 or 20 or 30 years, we'll be able to say, oh, that's why that happened, and we'll be able to pinpoint exactly where it all went wrong.” — Leon Neyfakh [17:47]

2. Ruth Marcus: The Seeds of Scandal and the Roots of Clinton Hatred

[19:08–32:30]

• Inevitability of Clinton’s Troubles

  • Marcus reflects on how the Clinton administration set itself up with poor decisions, inexperience, and arrogance.
  • Compares afflictions of individuals like Hubbell and Manafort: greed and an “amazing capacity to delude themselves into thinking they’re going to get away with it.”

    "Everything that happened ... in retrospect, [the seeds] were very evident. And people’s fundamental characters don't really change. ... Also, people have ... an amazing capacity to delude themselves into thinking that they're going to get away with it." — Ruth Marcus [19:08]

• The Nature of Clinton Hatred vs. Obama/Trump Hatred

  • Clinton hatred focused on perceived personal flaws—dishonesty, evasiveness, “Slick Willie” persona.
  • Obama hatred was about “the essence of his being”; Trump hatred is “of a different character, obviously completely justified” (audience laughter).
  • Clinton’s downfall tied to his “compulsive need to just trim the truth a little bit.” Cultivated deep distrust among media and public.

    “A big chunk of Clinton hatred... had to do with his near compulsive need to just trim the truth a little bit or never tell you the entire truth.” — Ruth Marcus [21:35]

• Media Relationship and Escalation of Scandal

  • Detailed example: closing off the White House press office access door (the “access door story”): arrogance and inexperience compounded media skepticism ([25:18]).
  • Clinton team’s mismanagement compounded by a hostile right and young, inexperienced staffers.
  • Scandals snowballed because of a culture of defensiveness, incremental truths, and lack of “D.C. savvy.”

    “You don't fight unnecessary wars with the press. But by the time that all had happened... things were blowing up...” — Ruth Marcus [26:36]

• Unforced Errors and Clinton’s Personality

  • Monica Lewinsky scandal cited as the “best example of an unforced error.”
  • Clinton's personal flaws—not policy stances—made him an easy and persistent target.
  • Even centrist policies did not mitigate right-wing animosity.

    “They hated him for who he was, not really so much what he wanted to do.” — Ruth Marcus [32:24]

3. Rick Perlstein: The Right’s Animating Hatred and the Clinton Era

[33:21–51:58]

• Conservative Identity Crisis After the Cold War

  • The right lost its unifying enemy (USSR) with the end of the Cold War, temporarily rallied around “political correctness” as a new enemy.
  • Clinton’s election provided a godsend—a focal point for their anxieties and anger.

• Cultural vs. Political Hostility

  • Clinton represented the “first baby boomer president who... really enjoyed” the 1960s; symbol of cultural change, not just political.
  • Personal animus: even Perlstein’s conservative father had a “visceral, uncharacteristic” rage at seeing Clinton onscreen.

    “The mention of Bill Clinton, his face showing up in the TV would send my father... into an apoplectic rage...” — Rick Perlstein [37:21]

• The Franklin vs. Orthogonian Metaphor

  • Draws parallels with Nixon era: Clinton as the charming "Franklin" (insiders, rule-breakers), his foes as "Orthogonians" (outsiders, scrupulous rule-followers).
  • Deep cultural resentment of those seen as “getting away with everything,” feeding a longstanding right-wing narrative.

• Fringe Becomes Mainstream

  • Extreme, conspiratorial thinking about Clinton moved from fringe to center of right-wing politics—helped by media seeking the next Watergate.
  • The media, eager for a scoop and to appear fair to the right, sometimes laundered and legitimated baseless accusations, fueling the cycle.

    “There's this kind of devil's bargain... culture of journalists... missed the story with Watergate, wanted to be the next Woodward and Bernstein... So they have to bend over backwards to be fair to the right... by taking down a so-called liberal president.” — Rick Perlstein [48:20]

• Modern Echoes

  • Perlstein draws parallels to the media manipulation techniques later used by Steve Bannon ("plant left, pivot right"), showing the endurance of this dynamic.

• Consequences

  • With an independent counsel “manically obsessed” with bringing Clinton down, and a willing media, history unfolded as a collision of flawed personalities, institutional momentum, and long-cultivated resentments.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:12] Ruth Marcus on Clinton truthfulness:

  “A big chunk of Clinton hatred and a big chunk of Clinton’s downfall... had to do with his near compulsive need to just trim the truth a little bit.”

• [12:26] Webster Hubbell’s stand under pressure:

  “I want you to know that the Office of Independent Counsel can indict my dog, they can indict my cat... But I'm not going to lie about the President. I'm not going to lie about the First Lady or anyone else.” — Webster Hubbell (quoted in narration by Neyfakh)

• [19:08] Ruth Marcus on historical agency:

  “Do fallible men make history or does history make fallible men? ... People's fundamental characters don't really change. They just emerge and cause them the same version of grief...”

• [21:35] Ruth Marcus on the roots of Clinton hatred:

  “Clinton hatred was very, very focused on first, Bill Clinton’s particular constellation of personality issues. … a big chunk of Clinton's ultimate downfall... had to do with his near compulsive need to just trim the truth a little bit.”

• [25:22] Ruth Marcus on White House press office access:

  “So we’re thinking about closing the access to the upper press office. ... that seems to me like a really bad idea.”

• [29:46] Ruth Marcus on the Monica Lewinsky affair as an unforced error:

  “Monica Lewinsky. ... The President of the United States is facing this lawsuit accusing him of sexual harassment... and in the middle of this lawsuit... he starts an affair... That seems pretty unforced to me.”

• [36:54] Rick Perlstein on Clinton's 1960s legacy:

  “Bill Clinton was the first person to reach the Oval Office who was a baby boomer who had not only experienced the 1960s, but really had enjoyed them. He inhaled the 1960s.”

• [48:20] Rick Perlstein on media complicity:

  “One of the institutions that moved [the right-wing fringe] closer to the center was mainstream journalism. ... A devil’s bargain: to show they were not liberal by taking down a so-called liberal president.”

• [51:36] Rick Perlstein on how history is made:

  “You bring these people who are absolutely manically obsessed with saving civilization by taking this guy down by any means necessary... and you put these things together with a guy, Bill Clinton, who cuts a lot of corners... and history gets made.”

Key Segment Timestamps

• [02:38] — Introduction to live show tour, overlooked Clinton stories
• [05:26] — The rise and fall of Webster Hubbell
• [09:15] — Starr’s investigation & the “hush money” theory
• [13:30] — Hubbell’s loyalty, connections to Lewinsky investigation
• [17:47] — Reflection: How history happens
• [19:08] — Interview with Ruth Marcus: The seeds of scandal
• [21:35] — Roots of “Clinton hatred” and media cynicism
• [25:18] — The “access door” and press relations anecdote
• [28:55] — Unforced errors: Lewinsky scandal
• [33:21] — Interview with Rick Perlstein: The right’s post-Cold War identity crisis
• [35:45] — Clinton as baby boomer emblem, cultural resentments
• [42:14] — Clinton-vs.-Orthogonian metaphor (Nixon parallel)
• [48:20] — Media’s role in mainstreaming the fringe
• [51:36] — The Rube Goldberg machine of personalities, institutions, and historical accidents

Tone and Style

The episode’s tone is engaged, thoughtful, and often wry, reflecting the personalities and deep historical knowledge of both interviewees. The host and guests blend analysis with storytelling, punctuated by humor and a clear appreciation for the long lens of history. The live audience setting adds a dynamic, conversational energy.

Summary Takeaways

• The Clinton impeachment saga was propelled by a complex mix of hidden keyholes, flawed personalities, amateurish governing, media incentives, and deep-rooted cultural resentment.
• Figures like Webster Hubbell, often overlooked, can become pivotal through a combination of personal choices and the institutional logic of political scandal.
• The right’s post-Cold War search for a new unifying enemy found it in the person and persona of Bill Clinton—whose cultural symbolism was as animating to his adversaries as any actual policy.
• The mainstream media, eager to maintain impartiality and find the next Watergate, at times unwittingly amplified fringe and conspiratorial elements.
• Ultimately, the episode suggests that the making of history is messy, situational, and only partly discernible through motives and grand designs—a theme that resonates in many modern American political crises.