Slow Burn Live: The Kingdom and the Power

Date: December 5, 2018
Podcast: Slow Burn (Slate Podcasts)

Episode Overview

This special live episode of Slow Burn revisits the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal with incisive, personal reflections from journalists, critics, and culture commentators. The live panel—held in San Francisco, Portland, and New York—digs deeply into issues of gender, power, feminism, and media, offering contemporary perspectives on a 1990s political earthquake. The discussions center largely on the power dynamics between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, the role and treatment of Hillary Clinton, and the enduring cultural and political reverberations of the scandal.

1. Hillary Clinton: Agent, Enabler, Transitional Figure?

Guest: Clara Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief of Mother Jones
(San Francisco segment, 02:21 – 16:44)

Key Discussion Points

• Hillary's Response and Public Expectation

  • The hosts and Clara Jeffrey scrutinize Hillary Clinton's continued inability to directly address—or condemn—her husband’s actions, even decades later.

    "At this point, she should have a better answer." — Clara Jeffrey (03:37)

  • The conversation questions whether the issue lies with staffing, personal calculus, or a deep-bonded refusal to fracture their constructed partnership.

• Burdening Hillary for Bill’s Transgressions

  • Clara acknowledges the unfairness in holding Hillary primarily accountable for Bill’s behavior, but notes how public opprobrium has shifted mostly to her over the years.

    "As the years went by, the opprobrium from that whole incident attached itself to Hillary and Bill somehow wiggled out of it." — Clara Jeffrey (06:18)

• Sexism and the Unique Targeting of Hillary

  • Jeffrey reflects on sexist tropes and differential expectations that dogged Hillary beyond her husband's actions, including persistent scrutiny about ambition, femininity, and sexuality.

    “There’s a particular kind of sexism that is attached to Hillary... Her looking the other way or whatever her position about Bill's affairs and sexuality was, it didn't even so much attached to him as much as it attached to her...” — Clara Jeffrey (12:00)

  • She frames Hillary as a "transitional figure" for women in American power—simultaneously trailblazing and uniquely constrained by time and gender.

• Changing Political Landscape

  • Discusses how events like the Access Hollywood tape and Trump's tactics (e.g., bringing Bill Clinton’s accusers to debates) neutralized Hillary's responses during the 2016 campaign.

Notable Quote

"My guess is that historians will look back on her as being this very weird transitional figure of American women in power."
— Clara Jeffrey (08:40)

Segment Timestamps

• Hillary's response critique: 02:21 – 05:49
• Public and media perceptions: 05:56 – 16:44

2. The Public and Feminist Reactions: Shame, Sex, and Power

Guests: Dan Savage (Savage Lovecast), Andy Zeisler (Bitch Media)
(Portland segment, 17:30 – 32:40)

Key Discussion Points

• 90s Era Reflections

  • Dan Savage and Andy Zeisler share personal vignettes—the country’s “torture” over the scandal, and third-wave feminism’s struggle to navigate sex-positive perspectives vs. victim narratives.

• Feminism’s Response and Monica Lewinsky’s Agency

  • While the mainstream narrative painted Monica as a victim or a "dupe", Zeisler details how third-wave feminists debated her agency and how the media more than the affair partners robbed her of her voice.

    “She was far more victimized by the media and by popular culture and by the independent counsel.” — Andy Zeisler (20:20)

  • Nuance lost: The reduction of Monica into either “predator” or “prey”, with Zeisler and Savage pushing for more sophisticated understanding of power and sexuality.

• Power, Risk, and Sexual Dynamics

  • Savage emphasizes that sexual attraction often flows along power lines, and society largely pretends otherwise, repressing basic insights about risk and desire.

    “People are so aroused by power differentials that in the absence of them, they will manufacture them.” — Dan Savage (21:34)

• Media Cruelty, Gender, and Lasting Effects

  • Zeisler and Savage critique media practices, especially how journalists like Maureen Dowd profited from slut-shaming Monica, embedding harmful narratives that outlast the scandal.

    “Maureen Dowd essentially won a Pulitzer for slut shaming Monica Lewinsky.” — Andy Zeisler (27:53)

• #MeToo and Evolution

  • The group examines how lessons from the Lewinsky episode continue to influence modern feminism and cultural reckoning—with progress in some areas, but persistent victim-blaming and reductionism elsewhere.

    “We are still really prone to flattening the way that power works.” — Andy Zeisler (25:33)

Notable Quotes

“If the president of The United States wants a blowjob, who’s supposed to suck his dick? Another president of the United States?... There are power differentials built into all of our relationships, and we’re always negotiating with each other around power.”
— Dan Savage (21:05)

“There was no acknowledgement of the... nuance, the ways that power shifts and the gray ethical area.”
— Andy Zeisler (24:09)

Segment Timestamps

• 90s Reactions and Feminism: 17:30 – 24:25
• Media, #MeToo, and legacy: 24:25 – 32:40

3. Power Dynamics Reexamined: Lewinsky, Clinton, and Cultural Change

Guests: Emily Bazelon (NYT Magazine), Wesley Morris (NYT critic at large)
(NYC segment, 33:27 – 50:34)

Key Discussion Points

• Relatability and Agency

  • Wesley Morris offers an honest identification with Monica Lewinsky, suggesting that many young people in similar positions might have acted as she did—illustrating the intense agency that can coexist inside power imbalances.

    “I totally understood Monica Lewinsky. I have to believe that if I were her in that exact same job, I would have done everything she did.” — Wesley Morris (33:27)

• Abuse of Power and Structural Inequality

  • Both panelists agree that Bill Clinton held far more power, structurally and personally, but Morris laments narratives that infantilize Lewinsky.

    “She had power over him. I definitely think at the time, it was amazing that she... seemed to have affected him.” — Wesley Morris (35:54)

• Feminist and Media Failures

  • Bazelon critiques the absence of a supportive feminist "blogosphere” at the time, adding that Lewinsky was more mocked than defended. She labels media coverage as mean-spirited and hypocritical.

    “Nobody had her back and... she was caricatured as this kind of blousy... mocked in the kind of femininity she had.” — Emily Bazelon (36:23)

• Comparisons to Present Day: Partisanship and Scandal

  • The panel draws analogies between loyalty to Clinton (“Clinton fatigue”) in the face of moral compromise and the steadfast support many give to Trump today. The concept of “team” supersedes evidence, as with O.J. Simpson.

    “When you want someone to succeed, you're going to try really hard to give that person the leeway to continue to remain in office and doing what they're doing." — Emily Bazelon (45:08) “We still have fundamentalist religious conservatives running around… a purity culture… which is all targeted at women as the sole actors and agents of desire…” — Dan Savage (27:18)

• Culture Wars and Sexuality

  • Morris reflects on the Clinton scandal as the “crescendo” of the culture wars—where government, media, and sexual politics violently collided.

Notable Quotes

"We didn't have the sort of cultural, conceptual language... to really reckon with what was rumored to be going on with him [Clinton]."
— Wesley Morris (39:10)

“If you read it all as an affair, the framework... was like, well, if we were like the French, we would just be sophisticated and libertine... everyone is very adult about it and moves on. Whereas now I think... the morality of liberals has settled into a different place...”
— Emily Bazelon (42:27)

Segment Timestamps

• Revisiting Monica Lewinsky’s agency: 33:27 – 37:46
• Structural power and feminism: 37:46 – 41:08
• Political allegiances and present-day resonance: 41:08 – 50:34

4. Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Power and Sex:

  "Sexually monogamous? The Clintons, apparently not. And there was a right wing conspiracy to take out the Clintons, and Starr was a part of it. And they'd finally found something that they could hang their hat on. And it was Bill Clinton's erection."
  — Dan Savage (18:22)

• On Hillary's Unique Burden:

  "My guess is that historians will look back on her as being this very weird transitional figure of American women in power."
  — Clara Jeffrey (08:40)

• On Monica Lewinsky and Victimhood:

  “She was far more victimized by the media and by popular culture and by the independent counsel… she was cannon fodder.”
  — Andy Zeisler (20:20)

• On Media Narratives:

  "Maureen Dowd essentially won a Pulitzer for slut shaming Monica Lewinsky."
  — Andy Zeisler (27:53)

• On Political Tribalism:

  “It became tribal in a way that, you know, the Mueller investigation is today. And I think Democrats were deeply suspicious of Ken Starr and unwilling to give an inch.”
  — Emily Bazelon (40:26)

5. Structure and Flow

• San Francisco: Hillary Clinton’s position, gendered expectations, impact on 2016.
• Portland: Generational feminism, sexual politics, the media, and Monica’s public image.
• New York: Deeper look at power dynamics, modern parallels (Trump, partisanship), the evolution in how liberal America processes scandal and power.

6. Conclusion

Slow Burn Live: The Kingdom and the Power provides a nuanced, candid, and sometimes humorous exploration of power, gender, and politics in the Clinton-Lewinsky saga. Panelists dissect both societal and personal evolution, revealing how the scandal continues to echo in our discourse around sex, consent, feminism, and political loyalty. Their reflections challenge listeners to reconsider easy narratives—about power, about Hillary, about Monica, and about how America confronts scandal and change.