Podcast Summary: Slow Burn — Supercommunicators | 3. How to Have the Hardest Conversations (Slate Podcasts, March 12, 2025)

Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Charles Duhigg, delves into the aftermath of a racial slur incident at Netflix, using it as a case study for navigating workplace conflict around race, language, and inclusion. It draws from psychological research, firsthand experience, and the expertise of inclusion strategist Verna Myers to provide practical guidance on having the most challenging—and consequential—conversations, whether at work, home, or elsewhere.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Netflix Incident: Setting the Stage

• Triggering Event ([00:07]):
  • Netflix’s chief communications officer, Jonathan Friedland, used the N-word in a 2018 meeting as an analogy for the harmfulness of slurs, sparking intense division inside the company.
• Division of Perspectives ([01:14]):
  • Some staff felt Friedland’s use was not malicious and his firing was unfair.
  • Others saw any use of the word as wholly unacceptable and evidence of deep-seated problems.

"Some people thought it was unfair that this executive was being blamed for using that word in a non offensive way... other employees felt... using this word was completely unacceptable."
— Charles Duhigg ([01:18])

The Science of Hard Conversations (w/ Jay Van Bavel)

• Anticipatory Anxiety and Avoidance ([03:48]):
  • People tend to avoid difficult conversations out of fear they’ll go badly, often overestimating the level of conflict.
  • Actual experiences are usually less fraught than anticipated.

"A lot of people try to avoid them. They're awkward. They cause a lot of anxiety."
— Jay Van Bavel ([04:07])

• Setting Ground Rules and Norms ([05:49]):
  • Consensus is impossible, but agreeing on how to disagree is crucial.
  • Implicit codes (e.g., don't attack the person; separate issues from identity) reduce conflict.

"You have to learn to talk to each other in a respectful way and separate the issues you're debating from the person you're debating with."
— Jay Van Bavel ([07:41])

• Modeling Norms Through Behavior ([08:08]):
  • Behavior often cues acceptable forms of disagreement (e.g., asking tough but respectful questions).
• Story Over Stats ([09:04]):
  • People are moved more by personal stories than by facts; empathy is unlocked through experience-sharing.

"Facts are pretty secondary. What matters... is what they're feeling."
— Charles Duhigg ([09:19])

Applying the Science: The Netflix Response

Verna Myers' Approach

• Recognizing Complexity and Divergent Perspectives ([12:23]):
  • Verna initially saw the incident as a mistake requiring apology, but changed her stance after hearing colleagues’ strong feelings.

"This person had a very good relationship... was loved and respected by lots of people. So my first feeling was... this needs a correction and an apology. But I changed my mind..."
— Verna Myers ([12:48])

• Building a New Approach: Workshops & Vulnerability ([18:42]):
  • Created safe spaces for staff to engage in dialogue, shifting focus from blame to mutual learning.
  • Explicit ground rules: "We're not going to blame, shame, and attack each other... we're going to seek first to understand."

"This is going to be about learning, not about figuring out who's bad and who's good."
— Verna Myers ([18:15])

• Modeling Mistakes and Human Fallibility ([20:07]):
  • Verna shares her own missteps (e.g., almost making a stereotyped assumption about a Black woman in scrubs).
  • Admits "You shouldn't expect to be good at this... it's not because you're bad, it's because you're human."

Facilitating Connections Through Experience ([22:04])

• Prompts such as “describe a time you felt mistreated” create equitable entry points, regardless of identity or prior views.
• Recognizing everyone has felt exclusion helps foster empathy.

"All of us know something about exclusion, even if it's like in our family... Most people know what that's like."
— Verna Myers ([22:50])

Tangible Cultural Shift at Netflix ([24:29])

• Workshops led to substantial changes in company culture, increased feelings of safety, respect, and belonging among staff.
• Real change visible when employees, not just DEI leaders, carry norms and skills into daily discourse.

"I'm a different person. I see things differently. My team reacts differently. I'm not afraid to talk about this."
— Feedback received by Verna Myers ([24:29])

Three Key Principles for Navigating Hard Conversations

1. Don’t Avoid Them
   Facing the conversation is crucial; it’s usually better than imagined.

2. Establish and Model Ground Rules
   Agree—explicitly or implicitly—on norms for respectful engagement.

3. Share Personal Experiences, Not Just Facts
   Stories and vulnerability connect across differences in a way data seldom does.

"When we talk about our experiences, that's when we find ways to connect, even when we disagree."
— Charles Duhigg ([25:17])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We thought we understood each other, but it's clear there's something we are missing because our black colleagues are, like, not having it."
  — Verna Myers ([13:56])

• "You want to get to a world where people in the grocery market don't assume that you're a nurse... Because if I had put the scrubs on male, black or white, I'm sure I would have gone with doctor."
  — Verna Myers ([20:07])

• "It's not about what the DEI team is doing. It's what people are doing without you."
  — Feedback to Verna Myers ([24:29])

• "Was I tone deaf? Yeah, I didn't understand how that word would be heard, and I shouldn't have said it."
  — Jonathan Friedland, former Netflix CCO ([final minutes])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:07]-[02:11]: The shocking incident and its fallout at Netflix.
• [03:48]-[10:34]: Jay Van Bavel on the psychology and science of hard conversations.
• [11:48]-[15:00]: Inside Netflix: how the incident divided the company, and the uniqueness of Netflix’s culture.
• [17:20]-[19:44]: How Verna Myers began reshaping the Netflix approach to conflict.
• [20:07]-[21:35]: Verna's story of personal misstep, modeling vulnerability.
• [22:04]-[23:12]: The power of sharing experiences in workshops.
• [24:19]-[25:17]: Evidence of positive culture change and broader lessons.

Conclusion: Why These Conversations Matter

• Hard conversations cannot erase all differences or end racism—but they're essential steps.
• Skillfully navigating discomfort can transform individuals and organizations for the better.
• The right conversation, at the right moment, "can change how we see the world."
  ([25:17])

Featured Guests:

• Charles Duhigg (host)
• Jay Van Bavel (psychology professor, NYU)
• Verna Myers (former Netflix VP, inclusion strategist)

Further Resources

• Verna Myers: vernamyers.com
• Jay Van Bavel’s book: The Power of Harnessing Our Shared Identities
• Charles Duhigg’s book: Super Communicators

For more resources and guides on difficult conversations, visit Charles Duhigg’s website (charlesduhigg.com).