Episode Summary: Supercommunicators | 3. How to Have the Hardest Conversations
Host: Charles Duhigg
Guests: Vernee Myers (Vice President of Inclusion Strategy at Netflix), Jay Van Bavel (Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at New York University)
Introduction to the Episode
In this final installment of the "Super Communicators" series, Charles Duhigg delves into the art of navigating the most challenging conversations. Drawing from a real-life incident at Netflix and insights from experts Vernee Myers and Jay Van Bavel, the episode explores strategies to engage in difficult dialogues effectively, fostering understanding and connection even amidst deep disagreements.
Netflix's Internal Conflict Over Racial Slurs
[00:07] The episode opens with a recounting of a 2018 incident at Netflix where the company's Chief Communications Officer, Jonathan Friedland, used racial slurs during meetings. An executive had addressed the offensive content in a newly released comedy special by Tom Segura, specifically criticizing jokes about people with Down syndrome and the use of sensitive language.
[02:11] Vernee Myers reflects on witnessing the fallout of Friedland's firing. While some employees felt his dismissal was an overreaction—arguing that the slur was used non-offensively—others deemed the use of such language entirely unacceptable, highlighting underlying racial tensions within the company.
[13:23] The situation escalated as Friedland's departure sparked prolonged internal battles. Myers notes the complexity of the issue, emphasizing that many employees felt unheard and misunderstood regarding the hurt caused by the slur's usage.
The Science of Hard Conversations
[04:21] Jay Van Bavel shares his experiences with tough conversations, emphasizing that many people naturally avoid them due to anxiety and stereotypes that hinder effective communication.
[05:05] Van Bavel explains that preconceived notions about others' extremism often worsen anticipated outcomes, but in reality, most interactions surpass expectations in terms of positivity.
[07:10] The discussion highlights the importance of establishing ground rules for conversations, such as avoiding personal attacks and focusing on issues rather than individuals. Van Bavel illustrates this with his personal experiences of managing political disagreements with his brother while maintaining mutual respect.
[10:29] Van Bavel underscores the power of sharing personal experiences over presenting facts. Stories that evoke empathy can transform conversations, making them more impactful and memorable than mere statistics.
Implementation of Communication Strategies at Netflix
[14:21] Hired as Netflix's Vice President of Inclusion Strategy, Vernee Myers confronted the challenge of facilitating meaningful conversations within a corporate culture that encouraged radical candor and dissent.
[18:17] Myers describes her initial struggles adapting to Netflix's environment, which prioritized directness and debate but lacked mechanisms for handling sensitive topics like race and politics.
[19:19] To address the core issue of fear in having tough conversations, Myers implemented workshops aimed at teaching employees how to engage respectfully and constructively, leveraging Van Bavel's insights on ground rules and personal storytelling.
[20:36] These workshops established guidelines such as avoiding blame and shame, actively listening, and seeking mutual understanding. Myers modeled vulnerability by sharing her own conversational missteps, demonstrating that it's acceptable to make mistakes and learn from them.
[23:18] Through consistent practice, Netflix employees began to feel more comfortable engaging in difficult dialogues. Myers observed a cultural shift where individuals felt a greater sense of belonging and respect, and were more willing to address and overcome misunderstandings.
Key Principles for Navigating Hard Conversations
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Don’t Avoid Difficult Conversations: Anxiety about potential negative outcomes often deters people from engaging. However, initiating these dialogues usually results in better outcomes than anticipated.
“If you were to ask employees at Netflix...” [00:07] -
Establish Ground Rules: Set clear norms to guide the conversation, ensuring respect and focus on issues rather than personal attacks.
“You have to actually read the room and figure out what the norms are.” [07:37] -
Share Personal Experiences Over Facts: Personal stories foster empathy and connection, making conversations more meaningful and less confrontational.
“People will be open and listen to your personal experience because they can't deny it.” [10:29]
Conclusion
The episode emphasizes that while hard conversations won't eliminate all differences or eradicate issues like racism, they are crucial first steps toward understanding and progress. By setting ground rules, modeling respectful behavior, and sharing personal experiences, individuals can navigate even the most challenging dialogues with greater ease and effectiveness.
Notable Quotes:
- “We’re not going to get to 100% consensus with any human on earth.” - Jay Van Bavel [06:12]
- “When we come back, we'll return to Netflix and figure out how to use these rules when conversations are about topics that are really, really hard.” - Charles Duhigg [09:37]
- “It's not a witch hunt to find the bad people, but to actually collaborate as a group of people who all have the same goal in mind.” - Vernee Myers [19:48]
Further Resources
- Vernee Myers: Learn more about her work and initiatives vernemyers.com
- Jay Van Bavel's Book: The Power of Harnessing Our Shared Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social Harmony
For additional insights and resources on effective communication, visit charlesduhigg.com under the "Guides" tab or explore the show notes. To deepen your understanding, consider downloading a free chapter of Charles Duhigg's book, "Super Communicators," available on Amazon, Audible, or local bookstores.
Produced by:
Sophie Summergrad and Derek John
Sound Design by Derek John
Technical Director: Merritt Jacob
Supervising Producer: Joel Meyer