Settling the Score

Summary

Small Town Dicks – “Settling the Score” (May 29, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Yeardley Smith, Dan, Dave, and Paul Holes are joined once again by Lieutenant Ryan, a favorite guest known for his measured and thoughtful storytelling. The episode examines a volatile domestic dispute call from January 2021 that spiraled into a high-stakes hostage crisis involving a heavily armed, intoxicated suspect threatening violence against his wife, deputies, and himself. Lieutenant Ryan, both supervisor and crisis negotiator, provides a detailed inside look at managing the situation, highlighting the challenges, tactics, and lessons learned. The central theme is the inherent unpredictability and danger of domestic violence calls, underscored by the priority of preserving life.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Call Comes In: Setting the Scene

• Incident Timing & Personnel:
  • The incident begins at the end of a 12-hour patrol shift (B, 06:20).
  • Lt. Ryan is new to his patrol sergeant role but experienced as a crisis negotiator.
• Nature of the Call:
  • 911 call from Diane (mother-in-law) reporting son Thomas (57) is chasing his wife Kim with a gun.
  • A second call comes from Thomas, claiming the gun has been put away and offering to meet deputies outside (B, 07:14).
• Concerns:
  • Thomas makes veiled threats using law enforcement codes, suggesting intent to kill officers and himself (B, 08:36).
  • The rural location minimizes element of surprise and complicates tactical response (B, 09:08).

“He says that if deputies try to engage him, he's going to 105 them and 107 himself... I think what he's trying to say is he's going to murder the deputies that are responding because signal five is a homicide, and then he's going to signal seven himself, meaning he's going to kill himself.” – Ryan (B, 08:36)

2. Immediate Police Response and Tactical Planning

• Cautious Approach:
  • Ryan directs deputies not to approach directly and to prioritize officer safety.
  • Verbal containment is initiated; negotiator experience leveraged (B, 11:53).
• Dynamic Situation:
  • Thomas demands only a single deputy approaches or he will open fire; this is refused (B, 10:20).
  • Kim and Diane are eventually barricaded in a bedroom (B, 13:15).
  • Shots are fired while Thomas is outside; no clear threat to barricaded occupants at that moment (B, 14:15).
• Weapon Details:
  • Thomas is seen carrying both a handgun (9mm) and a rifle (B, 15:05).

“The thing with the rifle, that information is huge... you feel very exposed when you're on a call with somebody armed with a rifle.” – Dave (F, 15:47)

3. Crisis Negotiation and Escalation

• Extended Negotiation:
  • Thomas, highly agitated and intoxicated, cycles between suicide threats, anger, and paranoia (B, 12:39, 25:07).
  • Verbal containment maintained for approximately two hours (B, 22:06).
  • SWAT and a negotiation team are called—the “$10,000 button” (B, 16:15).
• Hostage Extraction:
  • Through coordinated efforts, Kim is extracted through a window by negotiators (B, 27:39).
  • Diane, who has dementia and is less aware of the threat, initially refuses to leave (B, 27:42).

“I look at negotiator Josh and he gives me a big thumbs up and he says, Kim is out of the house. So in the background, the negotiators had figured out which room Kim was in, had made contact with her on the window and had pulled her through the window.” – Ryan (B, 27:39)

4. Maintaining Control Amidst Chaos

• Communication Challenges:
  • Ryan discusses difficulty splitting attention between negotiation and command duties (B, 12:02).
  • The team faces added risks upon discovering Thomas knows police radio channels, possibly from prior security experience (B, 34:00).
• Key Tactical Moments:
  • Thomas, armed and agitated, attempts to crawl through the yard toward SWAT operators, aiming for an ambush—only to be deterred by a Bearcat’s spotlight (B, 38:13).
  • He verbally threatens to shoot at officers’ faces, knowing that’s where body armor is missing (B, 38:32).

5. De-escalation and Surrender

• Turning Point:
  • After five hours, with negotiation support and time for sobriety to set in, Ryan connects with Thomas’ sense of care for law enforcement (B, 43:00).
  • Thomas agrees to surrender, albeit in a dramatic fashion: sitting in a lawn chair with a beer and inviting officers to arrest him (B, 45:01).

“Thomas says, anytime I pass by an officer on a traffic stop, I always slow down, I always take a look, I always make sure they're okay... And this was the hook that I needed because he offers that bit of information. And I say, Thomas, that's me. I'm the officer on the side of the road. I need your help.” – Ryan (B, 43:00)

6. Aftermath and Reflection

• Personal Impact:
  • Ryan describes the adrenaline crash and post-incident connection with Thomas, who acts friendly and appreciative after sobering up (B, 45:26).
  • Host discussion emphasizes the difference between someone in crisis and a predatory criminal (F, 46:06; B, 47:33).
• Legal Resolution:
  • Despite a slew of charges, no criminal charges are filed. Instead, Thomas is court-ordered into mental health treatment, reflecting his lack of criminal background and the “crisis” nature of the incident (B, 47:33).
  • Thomas violates an injunction a month later, but that charge is also dropped; he has since moved and “seems to be living a normal life” (B, 50:50).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “So it's ripe for shit to go sideways in a hurry, as it does in this case...” – Yeardley (C, 01:33)
• “He’s screaming that he wants to die, and he wants deputies to come to his driveway and to kill him... already alluding to some suicide by cop ideologies.” – Ryan (B, 12:39)
• “If more than one cop comes up to my home, I'm gonna start firing rounds at cops. So he's really putting us in a position which we're not willing to do. I would never send one deputy up there to meet with him. To me, it sounds like a trap, and we're in control, not him.” – Ryan (B, 10:20)
• “He puts the chair in his driveway, sits down, opens a beer, and basically yells out to the operators, all right, come get me.” – Ryan (B, 45:01)
• “You guys are incredible... you all just fold these harrowing experiences into your story of your life... I'm gonna say it. It's just not normal. But you guys are incredible.” – Yeardley (D, 50:21)
• “We always say on our team, our goal is preservation of life, including the crisis principal, including anybody involved. That's really the end goal... this one was a win.” – Ryan (B, 52:35)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:00]: Call specifics and scene layout from Lt. Ryan
• [08:36]: Decoding suspect’s coded threats
• [11:53]: Ryan assumes negotiation, outlines learning moment about multi-tasking
• [14:15]: Shots are fired; deputies establish containment
• [15:05]: Weapon status and tactical implications
• [16:15]: Activation of SWAT and negotiation assets ($10,000 button)
• [22:06]: Maintaining verbal containment for two hours
• [27:39]: Crisis negotiation team extracts Kim through a window
• [34:00]: Discovery of suspect listening in on department radio channels
• [38:13]: Thomas attempts ambush while crawling through grass
• [43:00]: Breakthrough in negotiation leveraging suspect’s sympathy with law enforcement
• [45:01]: Thomas surrenders seated in a lawn chair
• [47:33]: Legal outcome—charges dropped in favor of mental health intervention
• [50:50]: Reflection on the psychological toll, lessons, and aftermath

---

Takeaways & Lessons

• Domestic incidents are among the most unpredictable and dangerous calls for law enforcement.
• Tactical patience, verbal containment, and negotiation teamwork are essential tools.
• Preservation of life—of victims, bystanders, law enforcement, and suspects—is always the top priority.
• Even in the face of violence and chaos, compassion and understanding of mental health crises play a crucial role in de-escalation and resolution.
• After-action reflection and continual learning are vital for professional growth in law enforcement.

---

Tone & Style

The episode maintains Small Town Dicks' signature mix of empathy, tension, procedural detail, and moments of levity—a tone both respectful of victims and open about the practical and emotional realities faced by first responders.

---

For listeners who want a high-stakes, minute-by-minute comparative of negotiation and tactical decision-making under crisis—with thoughtful reflection on the human side of policing—this episode delivers in spades.

Transcript

[A]

With the new Myloes Pro Rewards. American Express Card earn 3 points per dollar spent on Lowe's qualifying purchases for the first 6 months after card account opening. Plus save 5% every day on eligible purchases at Lowe's and earn points on eligible purchases everywhere else. Amex is accepted. Card members get more at Lowe's, subject to credit approval. 5% can't be combined with any other offer. Exclusions and restrictions apply. Points subject to loyalty terms@lowe's.com terms and credit reward [e-mail] MLPRA terms visit lowe's.com

[B]

businesscredit if you're into tech, you'll love this. TikTok is a live lab where users post instant reviews of the latest trends. Download TikTok and check it out.

[C]

Hey small town fans, It's Yeardley. I want to remind you that if you want access to bonus episodes and regular episodes a day early and ad free and our community forum and other behind the scenes goodies, you gotta go to smalltowndicks.com superfam and then in the top right hand corner, hit that little tab that says join. And then listen to the end of today's episode for a sneak peek at today's new bonus episode. Hey small town fam. Hey, how are you guys? It's Yeardley.

[D]

I hope all is wonderfully well in your worlds.

[C]

You will be so happy to hear that one of your favorite guests and ours, Lieutenant Ryan, is back on the microphone today. Ryan is a wonderful storyteller. He's measured, thorough and thoughtful and in the case he has for us today, all those qualities come shining through. So in today's episode, Ryan is called to a domestic dispute where a husband is reportedly chasing his wife around the house with a gun. Not good. The mother in law, who also lives in the house, calls 911. Dan and Dave have often said that some of the most dangerous calls law enforcement go to are these domestic disputes because by the time they arrive, tempers are hot, there might be drugs or alcohol on board and or weapons involved. Also, chances are the aggressor feels that whatever this dispute is about, it's a private matter and the police certainly have no business butting in. So it's ripe for shit to go sideways in a hurry, as it does in this case, where the husband not only takes his wife hostage, but also threatens to kill any cops who come through the door, as well as kill himself. Negotiations with the suspect go on for hours as Ryan works to resolve the situation safely and peacefully for everyone involved. Needless to say this is not your average day at the office here is settling the score. Hi there. I'm Yeardley.

[E]

I'm Dan.

[F]

I'm Dave.

[G]

And I'm Paul.

[C]

And this is Small Town Dicks.

[E]

Dave and I are identical twins and

[F]

retired detectives from small Town usa.

[G]

And I'm a veteran cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden State Killer using a revolutionary DNA tool.

[E]

Between the three of us, we've investigated thousands of crimes, from petty theft to sexual assault, child abuse to murder.

[F]

Each case we cover is told by the detective who investigated it, offering a rare personal account of how they saw the crime.

[G]

Names, places, and certain details have been changed to protect the privacy of victims and their families.

[E]

And although we're aware that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we ask you to please join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved out of respect

[F]

for what they've been through.

[E]

Thank you.

[D]

Today on Small Town Dicks, we have the usual suspects. We have Detective Dave.

[F]

Hello.

[C]

Hello.

[F]

You got me.

[D]

Oh, I know. It just makes me giggle. He was looking down. I knew he wasn't paying attention. I couldn't resist. We have Detective Dan.

[E]

Hey there.

[D]

Hey there.

[E]

A sandwich?

[D]

I'm a little sandwichy.

[E]

Yeah. Let me try that again. Hey there.

[D]

Hey there. And we have the one and only Paul Holes.

[G]

Hi, Ardley.

[D]

Hi, Paul. So great to see you as always.

[G]

It's good to see you too.

[D]

And small town fam. We are so excited to welcome back to the podcast. One of your favorites is certainly one of ours. He's given us several episodes. They're always fantastic.

[C]

Please say hello to Lieutenant Ryan.

[B]

Hey, how's everybody doing?

[C]

It's so great to see you, Ryan. Thanks for sitting down with us today.

[B]

Of course. Happy to be back.

[D]

It's great to have you, Ryan.

[C]

You're an old hand at this. Please tell us how this case came to you.

[B]

Yeah, of course. So the case I want to talk to you about today took place just after the holidays in 2021. So it was January, still a little bit chilly where I live. And at the time I was a. A new patrol sergeant. So I was assigned to patrol services, overseeing a squad and was kind of a. Wasn't new to the profession, but new to being a patrol sergeant. And this particular day also, I know one of the episodes I talked about a case that I was on where we were in a negotiation with somebody and that's going to come into play today. So, you know, kind of an ancillary duty at my agency. I also was a crisis negotiator at the time.

[D]

That was a great case, by the way.

[B]

It was, yeah, of course. Thank you.

[D]

And for our listeners, that case that Ryan and I are talking about is called A Race Against Time. It came out in season 16. So if you're inclined, you should definitely

[C]

go back and listen to that.

[B]

Yeah. So at my agency, we work 12 hour shifts. So this case came about 30 minutes prior to the end of my shift. So you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. We've been working all day. We got about 30 minutes left. And we have a domestic call that comes in. We received a call from a lady named Diane and Diane was calling about her son Thomas. So come to find out later, Diane, she's older, she's in her late 70s and. And her son Thomas is about 57 years old, so he's nearing 60. Diane claims that her son Thomas is chasing around Thomas's wife, which is Kim. So this is Diane's daughter in law. So Diane says that Thomas and Kim are in an argument and Thomas is chasing her with a gun, a firearm, around the property. So deputies start responding. I hear the call, I start heading that way. And before we even get there, we also get a 911 call from Thomas himself. So now we've got Diane calling our comm center and Thomas calling. So Thomas admits, yes, I'm in an argument with my wife Kim, and that he'll be waiting to meet the deputies in his driveway and that he has put a gun away. They've asked multiple times, are you armed? Do you have a gun? And he says, no, no, I put my gun away and I'll meet them outside.

[D]

Ryan, does Diane live with Thomas and Kim? How does she know that Thomas is chasing his wife around with a gun?

[B]

That's a great question. So, yeah, actually Diane does live with Thomas. And Kim, Diane is, like I said earlier, she's a little bit older also. We didn't know this yet, but we later find out she has the onset of dementia. So Thomas and Kim are her caretaker. Okay, so we're responding and while we're on the phone, I say we, while our comm center is on the phone with Thomas, he says a couple of things that kind of stick out. He admits that he's outside, he's had an argument with his wife and he doesn't have a gun. But then he says that if deputies try to engage him, he's going to 105 them and 107 himself. So he's using some 10 codes that we Use at the sheriff's office. Now, I think he's using these codes improperly, but I get what he's trying to say.

[D]

And what is that? Like, what's 105 and 10 7?

[B]

Yeah, so he does kind of use these out of context. 105 means relate to, which really means nothing. But sometimes people confuse our 10 codes and our signal codes. And so the way I took this comment was because he was directing this 105 at our deputies and 107 at himself. I think what he's trying to say is he's going to murder the deputies that are responding because signal five is a homicide, and then he's going to signal seven himself, meaning he's going to kill himself.

[D]

I see.

[B]

That's how I'm taking this information. Now, our dispatcher is saying that the person does sound intoxicated on the phone. Obviously, this is indicating to me that he has some type of. Whether he's law enforcement background or security background. Why is he using 10 codes? That's not normal vocabulary that a citizen would use. So let me kind of set the stage, if I can, for a second. Kind of where we're responding to. So this is in the eastern part of our county, and it's very rural. And so this home is really about a quarter mile off of the roadway. And this is not a busy roadway. It's a side, kind of country road. And so where we would respond to. To get to his home, Thomas would see us from probably half a mile away. There's really no element of surprise responding to this actual residence. So kind of knowing that already there's a lot of strawberry fields where we're at, a lot of fruit and vegetable farms as well. So he's surrounded by open fields. So really the element of surprise at this particular residence is really not possible. So that's kind of what the scene is of where we're responding. So immediately, I'm telling my deputies, hey, we're not going to run in there. I don't want deputies to rush the home. I want us to approach a little bit more tactfully and be a little bit more cautious because of the statements that Thomas is making. Deputies are still in route. We're still not there yet. This is all happening within minutes, seconds of one another. We get another update from Thomas, and he says, I'm gonna surrender when cops get here, but I'm only gonna surrender to one cop. And if more than one cop comes up to my home, I'm gonna start firing rounds at cops. So he's really putting us In a position which we're not willing to do, I would never send one deputy up there to meet with him. To me, it sounds like a trap, and we're in control, not him. And so I'm not gonna send a deputy to his home under these circumstances. So this is kind of what we're walking into. So I have my deputies staging. We're kind of, you know, nearby the residences, some structures. And so we're kind of able to park and kind of develop a plan behind these structures where Thomas can't see us. So my plan is there is a tree line that's on the backside of Thomas home. So I want to see if deputies can kind of approach from the tree line under some type of COVID while I get on the phone with Thomas and try to resolve the situation over the phone. Looking back, I probably would have had somebody else get on the phone, but I took this as, hey, I've got negotiation experience and training. Let me get on the phone with him and see if I can just resolve this. Wasn't really anticipating that this would develop or turn into some type of negotiations or SWAT activation. But spoiler alert, that's going to end up being the case here shortly.

[D]

Since you do have that negotiator experience, why did you even contemplate assigning somebody else to communicating with Thomas as a

[B]

sergeant and being in charge of the deputies on my squad, you know, I also have a duty to direct and help them with this situation. And, you know, as the deputies are responding, obviously they're grown men and women, and they're very talented at what they do. But there is a level of direction that needs to be given as well from a supervisor. And so if I'm on the phone distracted with Thomas or somebody else, it really kind of takes me out from being able to give that direction and kind of monitor things from maybe a higher perspective. Kind of locks me in. You know, I'll talk about that as being kind of a learning lesson from this experience.

[D]

Interesting.

[B]

So I end up getting on the phone with Thomas, and I can tell right from the beginning, Thomas's very irate. He's very volatile. He's screaming that he wants to die, and he wants deputies to come to his driveway and to kill him. So he's kind of already alluding to some suicide by cop ideologies. And so at the time, we have two people on the phone. I'm speaking with Thomas, and we still have Diane on the phone with our dispatchers. And so Diane is trying to tell our dispatcher that Thomas was trying to strangle Thomas's wife, Kim, and that really, she doesn't understand what led up to this. She doesn't really know why, but she said that Thomas was trying to strangle Kim. And then at one point, he picks up a gun and is chasing around the property. So while I'm on the phone with Thomas, all of a sudden, another female is on the phone, while I find out that Kim has now picked up the other home phone. So now I'm speaking to Kim, and I'm speaking to Thomas at the same time, and both are talking over one another. Clearly, it's a very tense situation. And so I convince Kim to hang up the phone with me and use her cell phone to call 911 and speak to other deputies that are on scene. Because obviously, I'm not present. I'm not able to separate the two. And so there's this banter back and forth between the two of them while I'm trying to kind of settle them. And Kim agrees. Kim hangs up the phone and she calls 911. And at the time, I find out that Kim, fearful for her life, she's inside her bedroom with Diane, and the two of them are barricaded inside the bedroom. And so while I'm on the phone with Thomas, Kim hangs up, another deputy's on the phone with Diane, and we hear a couple shots being fired from the home. So, of course, that raises a lot of concern for us. And so, you know, we're trying to determine, is he actively firing at them, are they being fired at? You know, because that would invoke an immediate response. You know, we kind of would take our safety as a backseat at that moment and rush in. But thankfully, we're on the phone with Diane, and she claims, hey, we're in the bedroom. We don't even see Thomas. We don't know what he's firing at. So we determine that most likely, Thomas has fired a couple rounds from outside of the home. I don't have line of sight from him. I'm behind a structure about a quarter mile away, so I can't see what he's doing. But we do have deputies that do have a visual from him from a distance to say he's outside of his home, kind of going back and forth in between the driveway and the garage and kind of back and forth.

[E]

What kind of weapon is Thomas holding?

[B]

He's got a handgun, 9 millimeter handgun in his hand. But the deputies are reporting he also has a rifle slung over his back. So what gun was being Fired at the time. I don't think anybody had a line of sight when it was being fired, but I'm assuming it was the handgun that he had.

[D]

Can you tell by the sound of a shot sometimes. What kind of gun? Like, would you be able to tell the difference, for instance, between the handgun and the rifle based on the sound of the way that shot came out?

[B]

Me being in my car on the phone with Thomas, I wasn't able to tell the difference. But if you were close by and you heard a handgun being fired versus a rifle, you would be able to tell the sound difference. The rifle would have been much louder.

[D]

Okay.

[F]

The thing with the rifle, that information is huge because when you're just dealing with a handgun, it's one thing, but when suspect has a rifle and you know that suspect can reach out and touch you from a long way away. I remember when I would hear somebody and he's armed with a rifle. I was always like, oh, my God, I must look huge in this uniform. Like, you feel very exposed when you're on a call with somebody armed with a rifle.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it makes the stakes a lot higher. It's more dangerous. I mean, it definitely raises much more concern. You know, at this point in time, there were a couple rounds that were fired. It was either two or three rounds. It was just a couple. But I was still speaking with Thomas. And a term that we use on our negotiations team is verbal containment. So we have somewhat physical containment of the home. Right. We have deputies that are nearby. We have visual of the surrounding of the home. So we have containment. If he were to run out, we would see him and could contain him. But verbal containment, Right. If he's speaking with me and talking with me, he's not hurting others. Right. That's kind of the mindset. So the more I can keep Thomas talking and speaking to me, he's not focused on Kim and. Or Diane, which Diane is somewhat like a pseudo victim in this case. Right. She's not really a victim, although he does have a handgun. He's violent, and he's in the home, and she's inside as well. But Kim definitely is the target. And so this is where it becomes really challenging for me because deputies are looking for some direction on. Do they convince Kim to come out? I'm on the phone with Thomas. I'm simultaneously muting the phone with Thomas and trying to give some direction, trying to listen to the radio channels of what the deputies are chatting about, trying to focus on what Thomas is saying, figuring out what Kim's doing, do we have her out of the house? And so it becomes a little overwhelming for me at this point. Luckily, I run a status and I see that the shift commander, which is a lieutenant, is responding and he's almost to the call, which that's the best thing I could have seen on my computer was that the shift commander was almost there. And so within a matter of minutes after this, my lieutenant comes up. He sees that I'm on the phone, and I give him the thumbs up to go ahead and activate our SWAT team and our negotiations team because we need some additional assets out here. And so that's what he does and to just set the stage. Because I know every agency is a little bit different. Some have regional teams. Our agency, we have our own team that's housed from our particular agency. But something that the shift commander has to consider when you hit that button, we call it the $10,000 button, because a lot of times when you hit that button, it's going to cause a lot of resources to head your way and it's probably going to cost $10,000 in costs of personnel.

[D]

We remember that button from a case that your colleague Deputy Aaliyah gave us where it was also a negotiation situation, actually. And yeah, she referred to the $10,000 button.

[B]

Well, we mashed that 10,000 dol.

[F]

I had one of those moments recently where I looked at how often I was grabbing takeout during the week and realized it adds up fast. Not just money, but time too. That's honestly one of the reasons Home Chef has worked so well for me. Home Chef makes cooking simple, fresh food delivered, easy recipes to follow, and meals that actually taste great. What I like is that it takes a lot of the hassle out of dinner. No long shopping lists, no complicated prep and easy cleanup. And it works whether you actually feel like cooking or not. Some nights I'll make one of the standard meals and other nights I'll go with one of the oven ready options when I just want something quick and solid. And wow, is it nice having options. Home chef has over 30 meal choices each week, so you're not stuck eating the same few things over and over. One night it's whipped feta chicken, the next it's pretzel crunch pork chops. No chance of getting bored. Ultimately, Home Chef just makes life easier. Less planning, fewer grocery runs, and you still end up with a really good meal at the end of it. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box, plus free dessert for life go to homechef.com smalltown that's homechef.com small town for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Homechef.com small town must be an active subscriber.

[B]

So just to kind of set the stage of what this looks like, you have probably about 75 to maybe close to 100 vehicles and people responding. So you've got to figure out where are you going to put all these cars, where are you going to stage. You've got armored vehicles coming, you've got command posts, big RVs with pop outs for our command staff to sit in and kind of make decisions. And so it's a lot to manage and a lot happening all at once.

[D]

How long does it take for those resources to gather?

[B]

I would say most people start responding within 30 to 40 minutes. But it kind of depends on where these incidents occur within our county and how far people have to travel. We have a pretty large county and it encompasses a lot of land mass. So depending if people are traveling from the east side going to the west side, it could take a little bit of time.

[F]

Bigger cities, bigger metro regional areas will have full time tactical units that can respond like that's their shift. They're not answering calls all day. They're ready for these types of call outs, but most cities are not. As you know, Yardley, you're trying to herd the cats from their days off and yard work and wherever else they are trying to get a, hey, we need you here. Now you get a big lull between making the SWAT call and then cars starting to show up. And sometimes that's when bad things happen. Sometimes it turns into a whole day.

[D]

Yeah. Thomas is already brandishing a gun and threatening his wife and his mother in law. And he lives in this rural area. It can't be easy to gather the troops as well as the vehicles in order to handle this situation. And God knows Thomas could go off at any second.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot happening, a lot going on. Luckily I don't lose phone contact with Thomas. We spoke on the phone for two hours straight. Now we get off and on the phone, Thomas and I, a couple of times. But the first call that I was on didn't end until two hours. So I had good verbal containment with Thomas for quite some time. Obviously this person is dysregulated. Right. They're in crisis, something's going on. And so the more we can kind of talk to them, keep that verbal containment and try to hopefully re regulate this person to A reality baseline. Right. So that we can actually have a discussion, have some influence, build some rapport through active listening, build that trust and convince somebody that what they're doing isn't proper or correct. And we need to come to a peaceful resolution. Our mission is to bring the calm to the chaos, and preservation of life is our number one mission.

[E]

Ryan, while you're on the phone with Thomas, you've got deputies who have eyes on Thomas, correct?

[B]

Yeah. Within a few minutes of responding, we were able to send an element to the rear side of the home, and they were able to go on foot, approach on foot, and they can see Thomas through the tree line.

[E]

What's the distance there between Thomas and this team that you have?

[B]

I would say it's within 20 yards.

[E]

Oh, okay. So they're very close. And Thomas, I'm guessing, is on the phone holding a rifle and a handgun, walking around outside this whole time?

[B]

Correct. He goes back and forth in between his garage and his driveway. And there are a couple occasions he goes inside the house, but comes out pretty in a short amount of time. He's. He's kind of in and out, but he spends the majority of his time outside in the driveway talking to me on the phone.

[E]

That's the consideration there is. Once you lose observation of Thomas and he goes inside the house, you've got two potential victims inside, and that may very well force your hand. There's exigency there, and there are a lot of decisions that have to be made in a split second on what you do if Thomas goes inside the house.

[D]

Right.

[F]

Ryan, when you. When you were talking to Thomas, I imagine fairly early on, you're asking about, hey, will you let Kim and Diane come out and get to safety? What was Thomas's reaction to that idea?

[B]

Yeah, so he didn't really have any issues with Diane, although he said multiple times, nobody's leaving. So he did tell me Kim and Diane aren't leaving. They're in their home. We live here. There's no reason for them to go anywhere. He is hot and cold when it comes to Kim. So in one minute, he's saying that Kim didn't do anything and he didn't harm her, and why are we even here? And law enforcement doesn't need to be at his house. And then in one moment, he's saying, cops need to kill me. He's trying to, you know, put us into a suicide by cop, and another minute he's saying he wants to kill Kim, but not really giving me any indication as to why or what he's so upset about Kim for. So he is very, very up and down.

[F]

Fairly typical in your experience on the phone with folks like this.

[B]

Can be. Yeah. I mean, it depends on. I could tell he was intoxicated, so alcohol was playing a factor here. You know, it just depends on their mindset, their mood. You know, some are depressive. You know, you're. You're dealing with somebody who's very low and is in a very depressed state of mind. This guy was all over the place. And mainly anger was his number one emotion.

[F]

Gotcha. And in the movies, they always talk about, has the hostage taker given his list of demands? We know it doesn't work quite like that, but was Thomas asking you guys for anything other than you guys just need to leave and get the out of here?

[B]

No. The only demand he had is to kill him. He went back and forth on that, like, you need to leave, and then you need to kill me. That was really his only demand. He didn't have any physical demands of delivering me a pizza or a pack of cigarettes. That never came up.

[F]

Got it.

[D]

Was Thomas aware of the deputies that you had staged now behind the property in the tree line?

[B]

No, he had no clue. I had told him that we were giving him a space, that we were staged a distance away. He had no clue that we had deputies just, you know, around the backside of his home. So we're about an hour and a half into this incident, and the cnt, our negotiations team, and our SWAT operators start arriving, which this was a good thing for me to see, because when we negotiate, we negotiate in pairs. And so, you know, two heads are better than one, right? Two minds are better than one. So now I have somebody who's getting in my car. It's one of my teammates, somebody that I'm very comfortable with on the phone and who knows my style, knows what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, right? And so he's there to help me handle and negotiate with Thomas.

[D]

And what's your partner's name?

[B]

Negotiator Josh. So the SWAT team is arriving. They start taking positions away from our patrol personnel. So they start relieving them. And one of the things that happened next was that Thomas, I hear him, he's not talking to me directly anymore, and he's talking to somebody else. And I hear word that we no longer have visual of him outside the home. And I hear him saying, open the door. Open the door. He's kind of whispering, and so, you know, I'm looking at Josh, kind of big eyed, like he's in the home. He's trying to get into that home. I mean, all he's got to do is kick that door if they don't have it barricaded shut. And it was right around this time that I look at negotiator Josh and he gives me a big thumbs up and he says, Kim is out of the house. So in the background, the negotiators had figured out which room Kim was in, had made contact with her on the window and had pulled her through the window.

[D]

Amazing. And what about Diane?

[B]

So Diane did not follow suit. And Diane is now, I will say, not that we're not concerned with Diane, but there hasn't really been a lot of hostility from Thomas towards Diane. Not to say that that can't change and not that he couldn't take her as a hostage if he's not getting what he wants. But our biggest concern was Kim. So Diane, who also has dementia, we find out she is refusing to leave. I'm not leaving and there's nothing wrong here. You guys need to leave. Although she's the one who called us. But we're dealing with somebody in an altered mental state. And so at this point in time in the negotiation, Diana's still in the home.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

And so we're a couple hours in and Thomas starts to ask questions about criminal charges, which this can be for me, kind of like a good sign. Right. He's kind of coming to reality a little bit. He's discussing, okay, what's going to happen to me when I leave here. And so we start talking about charges and that we have reason to believe that he's committed some aggravated crimes with a firearm. He adamantly denies that. And I start talking him through that. Thomas, you're going to have your time in court, you're going to have your time to explain everything. But the more you refuse to come out shows an unwillingness to cooperate with law enforcement. Right. So if you cooperate, you know, you come out. It's a good show of faith. Right. That goes a long way. And Thomas is still pretty adamant that he's not coming out. But I do like the fact that he's discussing what's going to happen next if he were to come out, he kind of sees an end in sight and maybe what might happen and how this might play out.

[D]

Does that not also, though potentially be a trigger where Thomas is like, I'm not doing any of those things and now I'm going to take my own life?

[B]

Absolutely. It very Much could. I felt like his demeanor was calming down, and so I felt like it was leading in a good direction.

[F]

Just going back to when you realize that Thomas isn't speaking to you, he's saying something, probably to Diane and. Or Kim, like, come to the door, open the door. Does Thomas then realize that Kim has successfully made it out of the house and she's safe now? And at what point does Thomas realize the target of all of his anger is gone? And with law enforcement now, yeah, he

[B]

does discover that towards the end, but he does not know that information yet. And he does come back outside. So he's only in the home for a matter of a couple minutes. The bulk of his conversation with me was outside and in the garage. At one point, we are able to convince Diane, not me, I'm speaking with Thomas, but somebody is able to speak to Diane to lock the door and lock him out of the house so that he can only go into the garage and into the driveway. So at some point in time that occurs, and Diane is cooperative enough where she is able to lock the door. And I don't know what they told her. If they said, hey, if you don't want cops to come in, you better lock that door right now. I don't know what they said, but they were able to kind of lock him out. So Thomas is only entering the garage and in the driveway at some point.

[G]

And then, Ryan, I imagine while you're on the phone with Thomas, somebody's gotta be checking into Thomas's background and figuring out who exactly you're dealing with. At what point do you learn more about Thomas?

[B]

So I don't learn too much about Thomas when I'm on the phone. It's all after the fact that I learned about Thomas and his background. Really, I'm kind of in the dark because my focus is the conversation, the negotiation, and what we can say to try to resolve this.

[G]

Is that a purposeful thing to keep you maybe unbiased towards Thomas?

[B]

It is purposeful. I think there are certain things that are given to the primary negotiator that can help. Like I did find out that he had a security background. Once negotiator Josh arrived on scene, I did ask him, did he have a law enforcement background? And I get a return at some point during this negotiation that he has a security background and he's a manager of a security team. But there's some information that's not given to the primary and that's more. More purposeful unless it drives a point or there's Something, they can use that as a hook for something in the conversation.

[F]

Got it.

[H]

So you're running out of closet space. The good news, you don't need to stop shopping. You just need to start selling with the RealReal. The RealReal is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale. Whether it's that mini bag that can't even fit your phone or those boots you never fully broke in, the RealReal handles everything. Everything from photography and copywriting to shipping and pricing. So you can just sit back, get paid, and make room for things that actually feel like you. And with 10,000 plus new arrivals every single day from top designers like Prada, Celine, Louis Vuitton, and Louisville, all for up to 90% off retail, you're bound to find something perfectly on brand to fill that extra closet space with. Plus, this may only you can get an extra $200 to shop when you sell for the first time. Make room for what feels like you go to therealreal.com to start selling and get your extra $200 to keep [e-mail] that's therealreal.com terms apply.

[D]

So Thomas has been locked out of his own house. Kim, at least is safe. Diane, suffering from dementia, is still in the house, but seems relatively unbothered because of her altered state, perhaps.

[B]

Yeah, she really was unbothered. And that could have very well been because of her altered state.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So one thing that came up, and this was a learning lesson later on, but we have certain radio channels that are digital channels that are encrypted, that cannot be heard by the public. And then there's some that are able to be picked up from a scanner of some sort from the public. And we actually going back through in the comments of the call, we're about an hour into this negotiation when I see this call come in. And it basically says they got a call from somebody who's saying that they can hear the chatter that's on the radio. And somehow they believe that our person on the phone, Thomas, is also listening to the radio channel.

[D]

Oh, God.

[B]

So we all switch to a digital channel, which was a lesson learned, you know, that we should probably have switched to that digital channel right from the get go. And this comes up because later on in the negotiation, Thomas is asking me, you know, which channel we're using, and he's using the names of our channels. Somebody without a background in law enforcement or knowing about our agency wouldn't know the names of these talk around channels. And so he's asking, you know, are you on this tac channel? Are you on this info channel? Where are you guys communicating? Because I can't hear you. And so he's kind of playing with me. I think he's trying to be sarcastic and, you know, he's being condescending. But this was also another information point that we knew he knew stuff about our agency. We didn't know everything he knew, but he understood some type of law enforcement background and our tactics.

[D]

And do you think that's because Thomas was in security or that Thomas had gleaned all that information on this day?

[B]

No, I think he knew that prior to. I think he just may have discovered that through relationships of, you know, encountering people at the sheriff's office or just kind of learning about our office. I don't think he learned that that day.

[D]

Right. Interesting. Terrifying.

[F]

When you're going to a call and then you find out ten minutes too late. By the way, involved suspect has a scanner. You're like, shit, he knows I'm four minutes out, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay, what happens next?

[B]

I think we're getting somewhere with Thomas at this point. You know, I felt like he was calming down. And right after we were discussing his criminal charges, and I started to hear what sounds like he's loading a rifle. And so I'm hearing this noise and he's asking me, do you know what that is, Thomas? I don't know what that is. What's going on? What are you doing? And he's like, well, that's me loading my rifle because this isn't gonna end well. This is never gonna end well. This just goes to show more of his mindset. Right. He's not ready. Where I thought we were making some progress with Thomas, we clearly weren't.

[G]

With the deputies that had line of sight, did they indicate what type of rifle was it? A hunting rifle? Was it assault?

[B]

Yeah, it was an assault rifle.

[G]

It was. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So at this point, there's a time and place where Thomas starts to say, you know, that he's going to surrender. Right. We're not really buying what he's saying, but he's like, okay, all right, I'm going to give up. And he's like, I got all my lights on. So he turns on his lights, and at this point, we're probably 8, 8:30, 9 o'. Clock. So it's dark. Right. There's not a lot of lights out here. We're kind of in, like I said earlier, rural area. And so he starts to turn on all of his lights his garage light and some lights that illuminate the driveway. So our SWAT operators are, like, you know, focused in. All right, what is he going to do? What's happening? You know? And he looks like he's going to surrender. Well, we've got a couple Bearcats, so. Bearcats, we have two armored vehicles that have arrived on scene. So we've got some operators on one side of the house and operators on another. They're still a little distance away, but they. They've got the house surrounded with these two Bearcats. So one of the Bearcats starts to move closer to the driveway, thinking he's, you know, he's saying he's going to surrender. What's going to happen? You know, we going to send a catch team in to get him, or is he going to come back to us? And within a couple moments, Thomas turns all the lights off. All right, so now we have dark. Now our operators have night vision, so they're still able to see him. But he turns all his lights off, and he starts to bear crawl through his grass and his field. And he's put the phone in his pocket, so I can't hear Thomas anymore. He's no longer speaking to me, but we have an open line. So I'm relaying back that it sounds like he's crawling. And that was verified by our SWAT operators that he was crawling through the grass.

[D]

And Ryan, when you say Thomas put the phone in his pocket, do you mean Thomas put his cell phone in his pocket? Cause you were on a landline with Thomas before.

[B]

Yeah, that's actually a great point. So we were on the landline with him in his home, and about two hours in, we ended up going offline, and he calls me from a cell phone later on. So we do end up transitioning from his landline home to his cell phone.

[D]

I see. Okay.

[B]

And then at some point, he puts that cell phone in his pocket, starts to crawl through the grass, and while he's on the ground, still somewhat concealed, he picks up the phone and he starts whispering in the phone, and he says, do you know where deputies don't have body armor on their bodies, Ryan?

[D]

Is that a rhetorical question?

[B]

Yeah, I took it as such. And I'm just listening, and he says, they don't have any body armor on their faces, and that's what I'm gunning for. So I've told you guys to leave, and you're forcing my hand, so you guys better watch out, because I'm coming for their faces. He does stand up. He does Try to go from, you know, place to place. Now, I don't think he's doing this very well. I think he's drunk and he's maneuvering through his yard. And I know they're watching him the entire time. So it's not like they ever lose sight of him. And they're like, where did he go? Thomas has evaded us. We're not sure. He's a drunk guy crawling through with a rifle, but of course, still making threats, still armed with a gun, still very dangerous. And at one point in time, he's walking. Now he doesn't know operators are in that tree line. And he starts to walk towards that tree line. And so he's got his handgun in hand, he's got his rifle on him. And one of the operators says, Thomas gets about 20ft from him. And it wasn't until the armored vehicle, our Bearcat, had maneuvered around the yard and pinpointed a spotlight right on him. And that's when Thomas runs back into the garage. So if it wasn't for that Bearcat that had come around at that moment, he would have been face to face with our operators. He practically was. And they were ready and prepared for a gunfight. So, you know, everything happens for a reason, I guess. And it was just circumstance that they were able to get Thomas to go back into his garage right at that moment. So as we're on the phone, you know, it's interesting how he's kind of all over the place, but he does start mentioning now, particularly the agency I work for and the leader of our agency, and his disdain for the leader and the department that I work for. And it goes on and on. He's kind of making some political statements. And, you know, Thomas is all over the place. He tells us that he has got booby traps around his property. He's got explosives that our operators may encounter. He's got cameras all over his property. Now, we didn't find any booby traps, and we didn't find any explosives. We did find high resolution cameras, but that was all inside the home. So he wasn't even able to access that from outside in his garage, which was probably to our benefit. I know I had mentioned earlier that Diane was still in the home. I do find out about three hours into this incident, Diane does ultimately exit the home.

[D]

So when Kim and Diane are safely out of the house, do either of them tell you how things escalated to this point with Thomas?

[B]

So according to Kim, Thomas had come home from work, and it was a little after five when he got there, and Thomas had fallen in the garage. And so Kim had heard that he had fell. And she explained that Thomas had had some difficulty with tremors. And so Kim goes out to check on Thomas and goes to pick him up because he was on the ground. And the moment Thomas stands up, Kim says something switched in his brain. Thomas started to strangle Kim. And at one point he had a firearm on him. And Thomas had brandished that firearm and pointed it at Kim's face. And she had no clue what had happened to Thomas. She was kind of at a loss. She really, at this point in time, had no clue what really spawned this. We find out later from Kim that one of the things that set him off was that Kim had purchased a new car. So Thomas comes home, and in later statements from Thomas, Thomas says, you know, my wife Kim regulates everything I buy and everything I do. And we take turns on whose turn it is to buy a car. And I'm up, my car's old, I have an old beat up truck, and it's my turn to buy a car. And so when I got home and I saw that Kim had purchased a new car, he lost it.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And so that was really kind of the catalyst that put him in a state of crisis where he was so overwhelmed with anger for Kim that he was. I mean, he was obviously coming after her pretty violently.

[D]

Ryan, does Thomas show up home already drunk when he falls in the garage? He does, so he's already blotto. And then he sees the car and it's just this cascade of terrible decisions.

[B]

We're about four hours into this incident and Thomas still is saying suicidal by cop statements. You know, he says to me, ryan, I'm sorry this is going to end by suicide by cop, but I want to test how good your training is. I want to test how good your operators, how well they can do with what I'm going to present to them. But Thomas says something that gives me a hook. We're just talking and I'm trying to get him to re regulate, you know, he makes the comment, he said, ryan, you know, I'm not a bad guy. He goes, I. I have a love for law enforcement. Which kind of surprised me based on the outlandish statements he's been saying to us for the past four hours. But Thomas says, anytime I pass by an officer on a traffic stop, I always slow down, I always take a look, I always make sure they're okay because I'm always prepared that, you know, I may need to stop and get out and help that officer. And this was the hook that I needed because he offers that bit of information. And I say, thomas, that's me. I'm the officer on the side of the road. I need your help. And so that conversation was really what kind of lowered his behavior, his anger. We're about almost five hours in. He's starting to sober up a little bit. So Thomas starts to come back to reality of really the magnitude of what's happening. And so I go on that narrative for a little while and tell Thomas over and over again, hey, bud, I'm that cop on the side of the road. You've said already that you're a good guy and you look out for law enforcement. We appreciate that. And that's me. I'm out here. I need your help. Come and talk to me. So after about five hours, a little over five hours, Thomas does agree to surrender. Now, he's not necessarily going to make it easy on us. Still a little bit angry. So he gets out. Thomas gets out a chair and puts the chair in his driveway, sits down, opens a beer, and basically yells out to the operators, all right, come get me.

[D]

Like a lawn chair.

[B]

A lawn chair, yes.

[F]

Wow.

[B]

So our operators, of course, very cautiously, you know, giving Thomas commands and directions to come out. Of course, he's not listening, but they do ultimately approach Thomas with a shield, and they're able to take him into custody at that point.

[F]

Wow.

[C]

So we're now into the evening.

[D]

How do you sleep that night, Brian, after a day like that?

[B]

Well, I was pretty wired. I think I looked back, it was like 30 minutes before the end of our shift. But then, you know, five and a half hours later, here we are. And you don't leave right then and there. I always go and introduce myself face to face to somebody I've been on the phone with. So I leave my area of where I'm at, I walk up to the scene, I go meet with Thomas, and you would have thought he wasn't yelling at me for five hours. He was in the backseat of a car and. Hey, Ryan. Hey, good to meet you. Thanks for talking to me on the phone, bud. Just like nothing happened. We're just old friends.

[D]

Wow. I mean, for anybody who's been on a negotiation, has that happened to you, Dave? You're a negotiator.

[F]

It has happened. I say I was a negotiator. I've negotiated less than 10 incidents. But, yes, the suspects I've had success with were suicidal and barricaded themselves type folks. Just, they were appreciative of us taking the time to talk to them. So it is kind of weird. You realize very quickly, like, this job ain't personal. With at least Thomas, it's not personal. I think Thomas snapped when he pulls into his property and sees a brand new gift and Thomas snaps. So I know that at CrimeCon, one of our questions was, you know, you've dealt with evil. How do you tell the difference? This is part of it is how Thomas is reacting when the incident is over and how Thomas is treating law enforcement. That's one of the factors that goes into us evaluating, you know, is this someone having a bad day, or is this somebody who just makes it a point to victimize everyone they come across so you can tell the differences? I'm not making excuses for Thomas. I'm saying Thomas had a bad day. Thomas didn't make it worse. He did plenty of things that could have made it much worse, especially for him. But at the end of the day, Thomas is acting reasonably. He's sobered up, he's gotten away from whatever he was in right after he got home from work.

[B]

Yeah, Dave, I agree with you. You guys have talked about a lot of predators on this podcast, and we've heard some really atrocious stories and what people are capable of. And I'm not saying what Thomas did. I mean, he put a lot of stress on a lot of people, did some bad things. But was he a predator or was he somebody in crisis at this given moment? Which kind of leads me to the disposition or really what happened with this case. Thomas was arrested for domestic violence, battery, and aggravated assault. He had a slew of charges in relation to that, and ultimately the state did not file any criminal charges. They elected to mandate court ordered mental health treatment for Thomas. You know, I think they probably took into consideration his history. Thomas only had a disorderly conduct charge in the 90s. You know, he wasn't really a bad guy. And that case was dropped. It looked like he got into a bar fight in the 90s, which is why he was arrested back then.

[F]

You have these huge buildups on these barricaded subject calls, and then when it ends, like Ryan's saying, I was wired when I got home. I completely relate to that. It's like there's times where you get home and you're like, I gotta be at work in eight hours. And you take three hours to decompress and be able to go to sleep that night. It's. It's fascinating.

[D]

I can only imagine, I would say, obviously, when Thomas comes home, and sees Kim's new car. That's the trigger. Because what Thomas is describing is, I keep score, and it was my turn to win, and I didn't win, and that fucking pissed me off. And now I'm going to have my revenge on that. And so I always feel like in relationships, it's a risky thing to keep score. Chances are you're going to come up with a loss at some point, you know?

[G]

And I wonder, under this set of circumstances, with no charges being filed, Ryan, was there any type of restitution that Thomas was obligated to because he caused you guys to smash that $10,000 button?

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. And we do seek restitution under certain cases. This case, I couldn't find any documentation that that was instituted. We have done it in the past, but in this particular case, it looks like it was not.

[D]

What sort of circumstances would you ask? Restitution of a suspect?

[B]

You know, the one case that comes to mind that I can think of is when people false report crimes. And so when they make false allegations or file a false police report and it causes a very large investigation, like, for example, somebody claims that they were raped or, you know, taken advantage of, and it causes this chain reaction of a large investigation. Come to find out it's all fake, we would then file a charge of filing a false police report and seek restitution.

[C]

Right.

[D]

You know, an incident like that, for most people in the world who don't do the job that you all do, would be the thing they talk about at every dinner party. And this is, I think, your fourth or fifth time on this podcast, Ryan, you're like, oh, I could talk about that one. I mean, the fact that you all just fold these harrowing experiences into your story of your life is remarkable. And I'm gonna say it. It's just not normal. But you guys are incredible.

[B]

I appreciate that. You know, the domestic violence is, you know, Dan and Dave and Paul, you guys can relate. These are some of the more violent and more dangerous calls that law enforcement can go to. They can become so unpredictable. So many emotions are at play. And obviously, Thomas had never done anything quite like this before. And, you know, I've looked him up. I did some research. You know, what has Thomas done between now and then? Has he gotten in trouble? He did get arrested about a month later. It looks like there was an injunction that was put in place, and he violated that injunction and was arrested. But to my surprise, that charge was also dropped. But since then, Thomas hasn't had Anything? He moved out of our jurisdiction, and it looks like he's been living a normal life. It does appear that him and Kim have gone separate ways, which after an incident like this, I can understand.

[D]

Sure.

[F]

She get the car on that divorce?

[D]

God, I hope so.

[B]

It's a great question.

[F]

You can have the house. I'm taking that car.

[D]

I'm taking the car. Is an injunction a restraining order or something, or what does that refer to?

[B]

Yeah, an injunction and a restraining order. The same thing.

[F]

Okay, so he probably had the no contact with victim, conditions on his release and all those things.

[B]

Yes, Ryan.

[F]

I was going to say just good

[E]

job from top to bottom. I mean, initial response and how you coordinated everything and the incredible amount of restraint that your deputies had and your SWAT team had in the trees when Thomas kind of, you know, made his way over to that tree line. A lot of factors and a lot of things went well when they could have easily gone very wrong.

[D]

So many near misses.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Good job overall, and I'm glad Thomas survived.

[B]

That's really what we look for at the end of the day. I mean, these people, you know, we call somebody that we negotiate with, we call them a crisis principal. And we always say on our team, our goal is preservation of life, including the crisis principal, including anybody involved. That's really the end goal. We don't want to see anybody lose their life. And so this one was a win.

[D]

Yeah.

[G]

Thanks again, Ryan. That was fascinating. I mean, this is a type of incident that is way outside of my wheelhouse, so I'm listening. It's like Yeardley and I are two peas in a podcast in this type of scenario. Great job.

[B]

Thank you, Paul.

[D]

It's incredible work. Ryan, thank you so much for sharing that with us today.

[B]

Thank you for letting me come here and share another story with you guys.

[C]

Now for a sneak peek at today's new bonus episode.

[E]

If you go to a missing person's call and say, son shows up at mom's house, and mom is gone. Hasn't heard from mom for a couple days. Her cell phone is sitting on the counter. Her purse is there. These are circumstances where we are going to go, okay? That's not normal. People always have their phones with them, right? So you're going to look around the house. You're going to look for signs of a struggle, forced entry, any blood evidence. Is the safe open? You're going to look for signs of something nefarious happening inside that house. But any investigator worth their salt. We all take these calls seriously.

[C]

To listen to today's. Bonus episode and access hundreds more. Go to smalltowndicks.com superfam and hit that little join Button. Small Town Dicks was created by detectives Dan and Dave. The podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yardley Smith. Our senior editor is Soren Bajan and our editor is Christina Bracamantes. Our associate producers are the real Nick Smitty and Erin Gaynor. Logan Heftel is our production manager, Our books are Cooked and Cats Wrangled by Ben Cornwell and our social media maven is Monica Scott. It would make our day if you became a member of our Small Town Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. At SmallToWNDicks, we love hearing from you. Oh, our groovy theme song was composed by John Forrest. Also, if you'd like to support the making of this podcast, go to smalltowndicks.com and hit that little join button there. For a small subscription fee, you'll find exclusive content you can't get anywhere else. The transcripts of this podcast are thanks to Speech Docs and they can be found on our website smalltowndicks.com thank you speech Docs for this wonderful service. Small Town dicks is an audio 99 production. Small town fam thanks for listening. Nobody is better than you.