#545 - Google Map My Murder - Cary, North Carolina

Summary

Small Town Murder Podcast Episode #545: "Google Map My Murder - Cary, North Carolina"

Release Date: November 21, 2024
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmy Whisman

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Introduction to the Case

In episode #545 titled "Google Map My Murder - Cary, North Carolina", hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmy Whisman delve into the perplexing murder case of Nancy Cooper in the rapidly growing suburb of Cary, North Carolina. Balancing their comedic flair with in-depth research, James and Jimmy unravel the complexities of Nancy's disappearance, the ensuing investigation, and the controversial trial that followed.

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Cary, North Carolina: The Setting [07:37 - 25:05]

James Pietragallo begins by painting a vivid picture of Cary, emphasizing its transformation from a modest town to an affluent suburb with a population boom—from 3,300 in 1960 to over 175,000 by the time of the episode. He humorously critiques the town's upscale amenities and burgeoning real estate market:

“And this is much different from when my dad lived there. $574,400 median. Yeah, that is wild.”
— James Pietragallo [18:12]

The hosts highlight Cary's emphasis on maintaining a "small town feel" amid rapid growth, citing ordinances that preserve green spaces and regulate development. Despite its charm, James humorously laments the lack of authentic Asian cuisine:

“There’s perfectly awesome middle ground between P.F. Chang’s and buffets, people.”
— James Pietragallo [13:57]

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The Coopers: Marriage and Conflict [25:05 - 56:49]

The episode shifts focus to Brad and Nancy Cooper, a couple whose turbulent marriage sets the stage for tragedy. James and Jimmy explore the dynamics of their relationship, marked by mutual infidelity and financial strain. James shares insights into Brad's controlling behavior:

“He’d be responsible for paying all costs for the Cooper girls to get a private education from kindergarten through high school.”
— James Pietragallo [54:51]

Nancy's struggles with her visa restrictions and Brad's emotional abuse are underscored as significant stressors. The hosts discuss how financial control and lack of autonomy contributed to the deterioration of their marriage:

“He was financially controlling her to the point where she was selling her clothes and painting friends' houses just to buy groceries.”
— Jimmy Whisman [/something not directly timed]

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Nancy Cooper's Disappearance [56:49 - 85:42]

On the morning of July 12, 2008, Nancy Cooper was reported missing after failing to return from a planned jog. The narrative details her last known movements, including interactions at a neighborhood barbecue and her intended jogging route. Key moments include:

• Nancy cancels her jog with a friend on the morning of her disappearance.

• Friends and neighbors begin to grow concerned as she fails to appear for scheduled activities.

• Nancy Grace and Mark Fuhrman speculate on possible motives, with Nancy Grace suggesting domestic betrayal:

  “In domestic homicides, we look at family members often. Because it’s in the context of attachment that envy, rage, and the wish to be like the other get stirred up.”
  — Nancy Grace [Unspecified Timestamp]

Brad Cooper's behavior post-disappearance, including his attempt to manage his image and restrict access to his finances, raises suspicions. James highlights inconsistencies in Brad's alibi and his actions leading up to the discovery of Nancy's body.

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Police Investigation and Evidence [85:42 - 151:53]

The investigation reveals several red flags:

• Brad Cooper's Google Maps search history indicating a deep interest in the location where Nancy's body was found.
• Discrepancies in Brad's account of events, such as his cleaning the house hours after Nancy went missing.
• Multiple witness testimonies about suspicious vans in the area on the night of the disappearance.
• The discovery of Nancy's body with signs of strangulation and lack of clothing, raising questions about a possible staged scene.

Despite circumstantial evidence pointing towards Brad, the lack of concrete physical evidence initially complicated the case. The podcast hosts critique the police investigation, pointing out missed opportunities and procedural oversights:

“But all the tracks around her that they can find, they never take casts of any of the tire tracks or the footprints around her.”
— James Pietragallo [119:56]

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Trial and Verdict [151:53 - 173:35]

The trial unfolds with the prosecution building a case based primarily on circumstantial evidence, including Brad's financial control, his Google Maps searches, and behavioral inconsistencies. Notable moments include:

• James Pietragallo criticizes the reliance on Google Maps as the cornerstone of the prosecution's argument:

  “The jury was not swayed by those shenanigans.”
  — James Pietragallo [165:35]

• The defense attempts to cast doubt on the evidence, highlighting alternative suspects and Brad's character flaws.

• Ultimately, Brad Cooper pleads guilty to second-degree murder as part of a plea bargain, receiving a sentence of 12 to 15 years in prison.

James and Jimmy express skepticism about the fairness of the trial, suggesting that Brad's plea was a strategic move to secure a lesser sentence despite their belief in his guilt:

“I think he did it in a way where he left no evidence and did a very good job of doing it.”
— James Pietragallo [175:07]

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Aftermath and Community Reaction [173:35 - End]

Following the verdict, the community grapples with the implications of Brad's conviction and the unresolved feelings surrounding Nancy's death. James and Jimmy discuss the formation of support groups and the spread of conspiracy theories online, comparing it to high-profile cases like Scott Peterson's.

The hosts reflect on the challenges of seeking justice in cases reliant on circumstantial evidence and the emotional toll on the families involved:

“Justice for Brad is there. The justice for Brad blog Lynn Blanchard wrote extremely lengthy posts.”
— James Pietragallo [177:18]

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Conclusion

Episode #545 of Small Town Murder offers a compelling mix of investigative storytelling and comedic commentary on the tragic case of Nancy Cooper’s murder in Cary, North Carolina. James Pietragallo and Jimmy Whisman navigate the intricacies of the case, questioning the adequacy of the evidence and the integrity of the investigation, while engaging listeners with their unique blend of humor and critical analysis.

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Notable Quotes:

• “There’s more to imagine when you listen.”
  — James Pietragallo [00:09]

• “You might not be for you. We may not.”
  — James Pietragallo [06:23]

• “If you think that true crime and comedy should never ever go together, we might not be for you.”
  — James Pietragallo [06:59]

• “But this absolutely feels like a small town.”
  — James Pietragallo [11:33]

• “They erase a murder victim's cell phone data.”
  — James Pietragallo [167:48]

---

For those intrigued by this harrowing tale, further insights and discussions are available by following Small Town Murder on social media or visiting their official website.

Transcript

[James Pietragallo]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about one of my favorite things in the world. Audible.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, audible.com. or the app.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, I give that app a workout. Let me tell you something. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. You can listen to anything. There's so many genres on there. There's more to imagine when you listen. And let me tell you something that makes my imagination soar in a terrible way. I've been listening to Secrets in the Cellar.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Which is by John Glatt, and it's about Joseph Fritzl and locking his daughter in the basement for decades. And as you want to talk about imagination of who's the devil in a human skin? That's the guy. So check that out. Or a whole bunch of them. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. Audible's the best. Let's be honest here. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com smalltownmurder or text small town murder to 500. 500. That's audible.com small town murder. Or text small town murder to 500. Five hundred.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Shutterfly. Reconnecting with the people in your life is so important, and sending a holiday card is a meaningful way to do that. But it could be hard to know where to start. Who knows? Shutterfly makes it easy to share custom cards that are perfectly you. I already know what I'm doing here. Yeah, yeah. Why not? We'll put the puppies on the cards this year. That's what we're doing with Shutterfly. Sen. Everybody likes pictures of the dogs.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure do.

[James Pietragallo]

Find the perfect holiday card for [e-mail] and start customizing today. Enjoy. 40% off your Shutterfly order with the promo code Small Town. And send something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for details.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. The holiday season's busy and it's here. And Uncommon Goods makes it less stressful with incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list, all in one spot. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, what you're doing is supporting artists, small independent businesses. You know, people like us. Yeah, Good people. Many of the handcrafted products are made in small batches. So shop before they sell out because these things sell out small business. It's not a big giant manufacturing thing. And looking around on the site, I already found things. Good presents for this holiday. Absolutely. Gonna have some stuff made for people. I think let's make it personal here. It's perfect. And with every purchase you make at Uncommon Goods, they give back $1 to a non profit partner of your choice. So you even get to pick. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com smalltownmurder that's uncommongoods.com SmallTownMurder for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. Now back to the show this week in Cary, North Carolina when a respected local woman goes for a morning jog and ends up missing. The question is, did she ever even go jogging or is it all just a big setup to throw the police off descent. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yay.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh yay indeed. Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petra Gallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm Jimmy Wisman.

[James Pietragallo]

Thank you so much for joining us on this. Another crazy wild edition of Small town Murder. This is a, this is a crazy one. This has let's do it again. Oh boy. We have relatives with all sorts of evidence. Oh man. Blogs full of police corruption and it's wild stuff. We'll get into all of it. It's crazy. So it's got a lot of. It'll it'll sound a little familiar as we go through it reminds me of a couple other cases. We'll talk all about that before we do though. Shut up and give me murder dot com.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Go there right now for everything. Merch tickets to live shows. If you're listening to this early Austin, Texas, you are up next. Few tickets left for that Phenix sold out. Then we have New York, Tarrytown and Boston which are pretty close. So if you want those tickets, get them.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You better hurry.

[James Pietragallo]

I advise get them immediately. So get in there. Patreon.com Crime in sports. That's where you get all the bonus material.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Anybody $5 a month or above. You get hundreds of episod immediately of back stuff you've never heard bonus things immediately in your feed for just the price of a cup of coffee. It can't be to send you get new ones every Other week you get one crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get all of it. We just hand it to you. There you go. This week we're going to talk about, for crime and sports, we're going to talk about Marge Schott, who was the owner of the Cincinnati Reds and one of the most controversial sports owners in the history of the world. Cheap, nasty, mean, horrible. If Leona Helmsley owned a sports team and dressed in jogging suits, it would be Marge Schott, basically a horrible woman. Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about something very strange. Actually, you know what? We're switching this. We were going to talk about remote viewing and we're going to move that to the next Patreon after this. And we're going to talk about the Sarah Boone murder trial because I watched the entire thing, the suitcase murder. I watched the entire trial and it was fucking insane. So I have to talk about this. I don't know. We're changing it up. We're doing that. So there you go. That is patreon.com Crime in sports is where you get all that and you get a share at the end of the show as well. Also listen to our other two shows, Crime in sports, which you don't have to like sports, you just have to like us making fun of idiots. And then you're in. And then your stupid opinions, which is people's opinions, and then we get to make fun of that. So it's fantastic. Check those out. That said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show. We're comedians. So jokes are gonna happen and people are gonna die in horrible ways. Now those things, you go, well, how do you make, how do you make that work? Very easily. What you do is you don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why, James?

[James Pietragallo]

Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yes, but.

[James Pietragallo]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? And it keeps everything nice and tasteful and it's crazy stuff here, but I'm telling you, this is a wild case and they're all wild cases. If you think that true crime and comedy should never ever go together, we might not be for you. We may not. Or we might be and you just don't, you know, don't know exactly what we're doing yet. But either way, no complaining later. That's what we're saying now. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs here. Let's all shout, Shut up and give me murder let's do this, everybody.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to North Carolina today. Oh, yeah. Down there in a place I'm actually familiar with because my dad lived here for a while. And this is actually technically where the Raleigh Improv is, as well as in North Carolina. It's a suburb of Raleigh here. East central North Carolina. About 15 minutes outside of Raleigh. About three hours to Cherryville, North Carolina. Our last North Carolina episode, way back, episode 494. That was gossip and brain bashing. And that was. I remember that episode too. It was crazy. This is in Wake county, like Wake Forest University. Because that's all the same thing here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's all there.

[James Pietragallo]

Area code 919. The motto here. Live inspired. Do it or live inspired. One of the two. We're all dead, but we're inspired by living. We don't know. Could be. Could go either way. There a little bit of history of this town here. In the 70 or 1750s, John Bradford moved here and opened up an inn. Back then, it was also called an Ordinary.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And is that what they called those?

[James Pietragallo]

An ordinary or an inn? Yeah. So they named the town Bradford's Ordinary.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

After the one thing in it. Apparently didn't know that. But most of the land around here remained in the hands of two different men. So Bradford didn't own anything. He just owned his inn. These two guys owned all the other land. Both of their names were Nathaniel Jones. Two guys having, like, a land battle, both named Nathaniel Jones.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Ridiculous.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Gotta go by nate.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. In 1775, Jones of White Plains Plantation owned 10,461 acres of land, while Jones of Crabtree owned most of what is now Western Carry. So it's ridiculous. So after the Revolutionary War, the community was on the road between the new capital in Raleigh and the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. It's kind of in between those two things here. A lumberman named Alan, our Alison Allison. Francis Page. A lumberman named Allison.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's got to be a gal. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

No, that's a guy. That's a guy. He's a lumberjack, for Christ's sake. Imagine the brawny guy and go, hey, Allison, can you help me out with something?

[Jimmy Wisman]

He goes by Al, right?

[James Pietragallo]

I would hope so. He arrived in 1854 and is credited with founding the town, even though the Joneses fought over it and everything else. He purchased 300 acres for 200 or for $2,000 and, you know, planned all that kind of shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And do you think that's where Keeping up with the Joneses came from.

[James Pietragallo]

I think Jones is just a very common last name.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's a great point.

[James Pietragallo]

As found by two guys who aren't even related, both having the same name and fighting over the exact same name. I think there was not a lot of names back then. Before probably before we got a ton of immigration, there was probably very few last names. It's probably like China. There's like eight last names and bunch of Smiths, Jones. We all shared them. That's it. So yeah. Allison, Francis Page put up a sawmill in a general store and all that and donated a bunch of acreage for the railroad depot. So then the town was known as Page. Page's Siding, Page's Station, Pages Tavern and Pages Turnout.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I like Paige's Tavern.

[James Pietragallo]

I like that. Sounds good, right? We're gonna stop at that town, I think.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fuck yes, we're.

[James Pietragallo]

So Ty went on. In 1856, he added a post office and became the town's first postmaster. So this is like a little kid playing pretend town and he's just putting stuff up, naming shit after himself.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And Allison's got three names that are also all girls names too.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Francis can go either way. But Allison, I. Allison is usually 99.999% a girl's name. Usually. It's not like. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of names that go either way. That's not one of them.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Usually even Paige. That's a gal's name.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. That could. His last name here. So anyway, Page named the community Carrie because of his admiration for Samuel Fenton Carey.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Who was head of the Sons of Temperance in North America.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fuck is that?

[James Pietragallo]

Don't drink is what that is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh no.

[James Pietragallo]

Christians that go around telling you what to do and not to drink. So 1960, Kerry's population was about 3,300. By 7 1970, it had grown to about 7,600. But what they did, and this is what I mean right now there's way more people here than we usually do for a town.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure, sure.

[James Pietragallo]

But this absolutely feels like a small town. Absolutely. And the population has really exploded in the last 25 years. But.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, but it keeps its charm away from Charlotte and all that stuff over there.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, they said to preserve the small town feel, Carrie formed the Community appearance commission in 1972, which focused on regulating the look of things through ordinances. Sure.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Telling you what you can and can't do. Nice.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And 74 required developers to set aside one acre of green space for every 35 housing units constructed. That's why it still looks like a small town.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Because there's. There's green. Yeah. It's not just all crammed with fucking. If you want to have a sub development, you have to also put a park in, which is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Interesting limit for the.

[Jimmy Wisman]

For the acreage that you got.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. A couple reviews of this town. Most people like it a lot. Unless they're just saying it's expensive. Five stars. I'll kind of give you. This will give you the kind of overview here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Cary, North Carolina, offers a charming, vibrant downtown area that beautifully blends modern amenities with a welcoming community feel. The new downtown park is a centerpiece with spacious green lawns, serene water features, and plenty of seating, making it ideal for relaxation. Family gatherings and casual meetups. You know, shit you do at a park. What else would you do at a fucking park?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, give each other handies. That's a casual meetup, I suppose.

[James Pietragallo]

Get blowjobs, obviously, from streetwalkers, but that's a different. That's at night. I'm talking during the day. What are we doing here?

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a casual meetup. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a place where both young and old can feel at home. Whether it's for a stroll, enjoying a festival, or simply taking in the surroundings. Local breweries add to Carrie's appeal. Featuring unique craft brew beers and warm, inviting spaces. Perfect for a laid back evening. Right, There you go. So three stars. Carrie is an affluent suburb. That means the crime rate is low. We'll be the judge of that. And there are plenty of restaurants and other amenities. However, the people here are generally very pretentious and entitled assholes. I think the triangle area as a whole is great, but if you're a normal person, I would tend to avoid Carrie. Yeah, my dad moved there in like 96 when it was definitely not what it is now. No, no, no. It was. It was half the population.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Would you call it yuppies now?

[James Pietragallo]

Now it's yuppies. Yes, now it's yuppies now. It's just gotten very expensive. Two stars. Really could use more good Asian places. And I mean good. Not just expensive, not just fancy. There's perfectly awesome middle ground between P F Chang's and buffets, people.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Whoa, hold.

[James Pietragallo]

PF Chang's is not Chinese food, first of all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Are they setting bar at PF Chang's?

[James Pietragallo]

Well, they said expensive, not good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Great point. Yeah. That is too much money for what it is.

[James Pietragallo]

Exactly. And drastically lacking acceptable vegetarian restaurants. Yeah. You're in North Carolina. Even a vegetarian dish Comes with pork with barbecue sauce on it. That vinegary good shit that they put on it down there. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Even your salad is a barbecue chicken salad.

[James Pietragallo]

They didn't even have salad at the restaurant. We went to a nice restaurant. They did not have vegetables there. They were like, oh, I don't know. We got a lot of meat, though.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. They gave me a turnip.

[James Pietragallo]

So weird. And then finally, one star. Havana Grill. Music way too loud. It bothers neighbors. So turn it down. Havana Grill.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay. Yeah. Havana Grill's music.

[James Pietragallo]

Some restaurant plays music loud. The neighbors don't like it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

All right, that's a review of the town.

[James Pietragallo]

Review of the town. People in this town right now. This is not when the case happened, by the way, but right now there's 171,000 people there. It has blown up. In 2000, there was 94,000 people there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

In 95, there was like 70,000 people there. It's just exploding.

[Jimmy Wisman]

20% more every year.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, they have the Triangle Research center where they opened up. That's when they were opening up all that shit, which is all these big companies and tech jobs and stuff. And people like the Northeast, people moved down there like crazy. I know when my dad moved down there, he got transferred with IBM because they were transferring tons of people down there. It's like a. You know, it was a big deal, so. And there was tons of transplants there, too. Everybody there is from somewhere else.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It was like, there must have been something with the. With the government with low corporate taxes or something. That's how that shit works.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's a boom because property is cheap and taxes are low.

[James Pietragallo]

There's also four good colleges right there, which is a good place to get talented. Forest NC, you know, NC State. So male. There's a few more females than males. It's about average. Median age is 39, usually about 37. So that makes sense. All the young children and the 35 to 54 age groups are high. So people come here, spit out a bunch of kids when they're 37, have.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A middle management job and run it.

[James Pietragallo]

That's it. You know, some tech company. 62% married, well above the national average. Less people are single with children here. It is a family environment, kind of a deal. Race in this town, 64% white, 7.7% black, 16.8% Asian, as we said. Tech jobs, a lot of them there. 0.4% Native American, 8.1% Hispanic. Religion in this town, 43.4%, which is lower than the national average. And the highest one is Baptists, of course, because Baptists are the Catholics of the south, as we know. And this place actually you can't go anywhere on Sundays.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Everything's closed.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no, everything is packed with church people.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, I see.

[James Pietragallo]

Like if you want to go to lunch on a Sunday, you're going at about 4:00 because all the other time it's just well dressed people just coming from church. Everybody there goes to church is what I found anyway when I was there. Unemployment rate's very low. It's 3% here because there's tons of jobs here. If there's nothing else, there's jobs. Median household income in carry 113,782.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that right?

[James Pietragallo]

Well above the $69,000 average there. So not bad at all. Cost of living, 100 is regular here, it's a 105. Problem is the housing is the high one. Very high median home cost here. And this is much different from my dad lived there. $574,400 median. Yeah, that is wild. And if we've convinced you. That's fucking insane. If we've convinced you, damn it. The only place for you to lay your head and live inspired is Carrie, North Carolina. We have for you the Carrie, North Carolina real estate report. Average two bedroom rental here. A little pricey above the national average by a good amount. 1630 bucks for a two bedroom rental.

[Jimmy Wisman]

At least 400 bucks.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, a little over 400 here. Here's a three bedroom, three bath, 1599 square foot house which pretty much describes the house my dad has had when he lived there. Except I think it was a two bathroom. And it's a nice little house. It's fine. This house is kind of cool. It's two story and clean and white.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And nice square feet upstairs and down.

[James Pietragallo]

Upstairs and down. So it's a small house. $465,000 for that. No acreage. It's not on. It's on a regular lot of land.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, you got expensive.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. My dad is kicking himself for selling his house down there 25 years too early. I have a feeling for nothing. Yeah, it was cheap down there. Is one of the reasons why you moved down there back in the day. Here's a six bedroom, six bath T bowl for each and every B hole. 6,028 acre or square feet. So not acres. That'd be a lot. 0.41 acres. It's brick. It's all brick. It has big white columns out front. It's got a cool bendy staircase.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

One of those nice woodwork, but it kind of. It's weird. The weird part is it looks. It looks like it's made to look old and fancy. But they built it in 2006. You know what I mean? It's one of those type of houses. 1,595,000 bucks for that?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

All righty then, then. A five bedroom, six bath, T bowl for all your B holes and a neighbor. It's 9,619 square feet. Huge, massive house. 7.96 acres. The picture of it, it's on a private lake. And the picture from the front, it looks like it's floating on the lake. That's what it looks like. Like the lake, the way it's fucking. It's ridiculous. That close to the water, it looks like a resort. It just looks like some crazy, like, Mediterranean resort. It's. It's silly. There's a palm tree right by the indoor pool in North Carolina. Not a lot of palm trees grow. It snows there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Carolina has them.

[James Pietragallo]

It snows in North Carolina. Like a lot. Like. That's crazy. 7,500,000 bucks for that. Buckle the fuck up. That is expensive things to do in this town. Okay. You have the North Carolina Gourd Festival.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, let's do it.

[James Pietragallo]

Which is hilarious because we had a murder a couple months ago where they were all about gourds. They were gourd people, so they were.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Out of their gourd.

[James Pietragallo]

James, we feel like we know a lot about gourds based on this episode. So for the low admission price of $5, there are lots of fun things to do and see and buy at the festival. Oh, boy. There is the village of yesteryear building. Sure. Yeah. There's a variety of classes for beginners through advanced in the gorder category. You want to be an advanced gorder? Register for classes until the 27th or try your luck as a walk in student at the festival. You might not get in though. The demand for gorder classes are off the charts. We also offer a quick craft make and take for a low fee. Enter some of your gourd creations for judging. Are we carving gourds now? Is this a pumpkin carving contest or.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just grow it and have them judge it?

[James Pietragallo]

Don't know. You come to the festival and the wonderful gourd craft creations that have been entered into the competition and vote for your favorite for the People's Choice award. Imagine sticking around because you need to cast your vote for your favorite gourd.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Imagine waiting around to find Out. If your neighbors like, yeah, your gourd, then people go.

[James Pietragallo]

And man, I gotta find out if the one I picked won. I can't go yet. Vendors from near and far sell dried gourds of all shapes and sizes. Crafted gourds and tools and supplies. So you can craft gourds yourself. God damn it. Sure, they've left out the goddamn it part. But marvel at our display of gourds from around the world.

[Jimmy Wisman]

People are mailing them in.

[James Pietragallo]

International gourds. I think they're traveling in with them as a carry on. Putting them on their lap like a newborn baby.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Probably my two seats.

[James Pietragallo]

Jesus Christ. Musical instruments, utensils, dolls, bowls and much more.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

All right. Our photo booth has a variety of gourd masks, gourd hats and other gourd accessories that you can model. You'll look gorgeous. That's what it says. You'll look gorgeous. Then there's also the Carrie Dog Days. Get ready to unleash the fun and celebrate our furry friends at the most exciting event of the year. Carry Dog Days. Join us. A day filled with tail wagon excitement. Possum activities. So gorgeous and possum so far. Apparently the only way to get people go to a festival in North Carolina is have a lot of bad puns.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Holy shit. So you're gonna pause them. And unforgettable memories. The town of Cary is happy to announce the annual Dog Days and Pet Expo. Jesus. Look at My pet. Will be held at the Cary Police Department from 10am to 3pm so you can all feel real comfortable.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Love that.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Showing up stone. Going out trying to hit your vape pen. Not going to work. Our very own Carrie Animal Services team is hosting this event. And excited to grow the Carrie Dog Days and Pet Expo into an annual extravaganza. Wow. You can see agility courses. Watch amazing canine athletes tackle obstacles with finesse and skill. A pet vendor village where they sell pet products. Food trucks, of course. Doggy demonstrations where you learn new tricks and training tips and how they do it. Don't miss out on this barktastic event. Okay. That's bark tastic. Possum.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that even a thing?

[James Pietragallo]

Possum and gorgeous. You just had to add a couple extra letters. That's fine. This is outside of the realm of. Okay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ridiculous.

[James Pietragallo]

Barktastic. You took it too far. I'm sorry. Whether you have a furry friend of your own or simply love animals, who goes there to look at other people's dogs? I like dogs and everything, but wouldn't you bring your own Dog carry, dog days. Promises, fun, laughter and lots of wagging tails.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Pietragallo]

We welcome you and your well behaved pets to join us for.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, don't bring that piece of shit around here.

[James Pietragallo]

Don't bring the one that barks at everybody for a pawsome time. And they're gonna go back with that. Mark your calendar. Okay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's just bartastic. That's why he's so loud.

[James Pietragallo]

He's a gorgeous little guy. That's all it is. He's awesome.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Awesome.

[James Pietragallo]

Crime rate of this town, what we're interested in here, and it is low. Property crime is about 1/3 below the national average. Nice and violent crime. Murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 1/3 of the national average, so 2/3 below the national average. So very, very safe area.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Incredibly safe.

[James Pietragallo]

Really. It's just. It's just suburbs and houses and strip malls. I mean, that's really what it is. Honestly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's how you make it safe.

[James Pietragallo]

That's it. That said, let's talk about some murder here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Here we go.

[James Pietragallo]

Let's do this. Okay, first guy we got to talk about and we'll get all the laughing out of the way here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Bradley Cooper.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that right?

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yes, Bradley Cooper. Well, you guys hear the Express this week too? We have more people with names that they shouldn't have. It's fucking crazy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

As soon as he got successful, he should have changed this, right?

[James Pietragallo]

Jesus. Bradley. Graham Cooper. This guy is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know what the real guy's middle name is.

[James Pietragallo]

Don't know. But Bradley Cooper is his name though. If you told me Brad Cooper's Bradley Cooper's middle name was Graham, I go, that looks about right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, he looks like a Graham.

[James Pietragallo]

Sounds about right. Yeah, this Brad Cooper's born in 1973 and now he is gonna. He is going to end up meeting a woman later on and we'll talk about how they meet and everything, but they seem to be somehow meant to run into each other and meant to be together here. Nancy Lynn rents. R E N T Z. So pay your rents. She's also born in 73. They didn't even grow up in the same place. They're both born in Alberta, Canada. But not.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, they're both Canadian.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Meet in America.

[James Pietragallo]

No, they met in Edmond. They met in Canada, in Calgary, I believe. She grew up in Edmondson. Edmonton. And he grew up in Medicine Hat.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Medicine.

[James Pietragallo]

Medicine Hat. Which is the name of a town. And they even have Medicine Hat College, which is hilarious. I don't know what that sounds like you're learning there, but not anything that you would need that's gotta make a living.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Something with Native Americans has to be.

[James Pietragallo]

Has to be. I would hope so. If white people name that shit Medicine Hat, I want to kick them right in the balls. This is ridiculous. So, yeah, they're seven weeks apart in age, these two. Now, Brad grew up in a middle class family in Medicine Hat, One of two boys in the family here. His parents are Terry and Carol Cooper. And Terry was a college chemistry teacher who went on to be vice president of Medicine Hat College. I wear the second biggest hat here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yep.

[James Pietragallo]

Can't get that big hat yet. But someday, wait till they retire. Oh, man. He also sat on numerous, like community boards of things. His dad's involved in a lot of stuff in the community and his mom is a homemaker. Raised the boys and big into gardening, which Bradley was into as well. Brad would hang out with his mom and garden a lot. So that's what he was doing. Gardening is wonderful. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Such a great stress reliever.

[James Pietragallo]

Relaxing. Relaxing until the shit doesn't grow and die. And angry yelling at dirt.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's just all anxiety going, why won't you grow? What the fuck?

[James Pietragallo]

We grew.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I gave you everything.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, we had tomatoes, man. These beautiful grown San Marzano tomatoes. And, you know, harvested them all. I cut it, I cut into one. I was just going to slice it open and make some slices, a little bit of salt on it, you know, like my grandmother used to do and do all that. Cut it open. Fucking hollow. Nothing happened inside. Nothing. They were dry and hollow. What happened? They didn't work.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You made Griswold tomatoes, dude.

[James Pietragallo]

They didn't. I swear to God, steam came out when I stuck the knife in. Like, they didn't work. I'm like, these tomatoes are broken. I told Sarah the next morning, she's like, what do you mean? I had like a bike started cutting them all open. They're all hollow. Fuck.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We got hollow maters. How did we do this?

[James Pietragallo]

And the meat part was just dry. It was really bad. I don't know what the hell happened, but didn't work. We found out that we think that they got too much water.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that right?

[James Pietragallo]

They just liquefy inside? I don't know. That's what we were told. So who knows? Who knows here now. Brad says that his childhood and teen years were uneventful. No problems in the family. Parents get along. A psychologist later noted that Brad gave the impression of, quote, some detachment with little emotional warmth when he Spoke of his family like a serial killer. Well also like a tech nerd. That's the other thing they're not. Brad is a smart guy and he's into tech shit and doesn't give a.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Shit about the family.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, like his dad's a chemistry professor. I bet this runs in the family. Like a lot of times people who are very, you know, just maybe on the spectrum too a little bit that sort of thing with the technical shit, they kind of tend to emotional warmth isn't their number one strength. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's the best way I can put it here. But he's athletic, Brad. He's very smart, very high above average iq. And also everybody says when he wants to achieve something, he does it. Period. He's that guy. So not a lot of time for emotional warmth there for Brad. His family is very much into education because his dad's a professor for Craig and the vice president second biggest hat at the whole college. So obviously. So he attended Medicine Hat College. Wonder how he got in. That must have been hard. A little bit of nepotism maybe. After a year he enrolled in the University of Calgary to pursue a degree in computer science. Graduated in 96. And then by 97 everything he learned was completely irrelevant. So you know, I'm sure that's a joke.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But by then, you know, outgrown and made your fucking whole degree obsolete.

[James Pietragallo]

Every year the whole thing would flip on its head and change. Back then so it was like, oh, that's all useless now. Now we're doing this. Oh fuck. Okay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Congratulations on your Ms. Dos degree.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that's great. You started up Oregon Trail very nicely on that Apple 2. That's a great job.

[Jimmy Wisman]

D colon.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, DOS fucking run slash whatever the shit crap they would do. I didn't know. So now Nancy rent the young lady he'll end up with here, she was one of a set of identical twins. Why have we come up with so many twins lately on the show in the last year? Yeah, so many twins.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Bad things touch twins lives consistently.

[James Pietragallo]

They either murder or are murdered quite a bit apparently. And I don't understand how it's just.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A part of their life.

[James Pietragallo]

It's so weird. All right everybody. Today we're talking about Dr. Squatch. Now you might know this brand from their natural cold processed bar soaps which are all great. They're amazing. If you haven't done it, check those out. But now they've got the same real soap formula available in body wash form. And it is good. I'm Telling you right now. They're made with natural ingredients derived from coconuts and plants to provide all day skin hydration. Available in four unique and manly scents. Coconut Castaway, Pine Tar, Wood Barrel Bourbon and Fresh Falls. Dermatologists tested and clinically proven to provide 24 hour moisturization. So you can still smell tough while taking care of your maybe your soft side. You know what I mean? Dr. Squatch products are made for men. But we're telling you these soaps no matter what and in what form are loved by all. So you really can't go wrong here, everybody. My favorite by the way is the Fresh Falls. I tried that and I dig it. So what are you waiting for? Go pick one up at your favorite store [e-mail] today. Dr. Squatch Body Wash for men who prefer natural. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Chime. Oh Chime.com Absolutely. And this is the thing. We all gotta get serious about something. And finances are the thing you should definitely be serious about. It's time to make some money moves. At some point in your adult life you go, I gotta get serious about this. You can and you can take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee free overdraft up to $200. We've all been there where we've overdrafted. Oh my God. Now did I not only have the money to pay for that, now I owe more money with this fees now and now they got me a penalty. None of that stuff here. You can do that or you can get paid up to two days early with direct deposit as well. They got you covered and you can learn [e-mail] Small Town Murder. We've been there. Chime helps you make progress with the fee. Free overdraft up to $200. Your next deposit is applied to your balance. So very easy stuff. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in two [e-mail] small townmurder. That's chime.com smalltownmurder Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride BankNA members. FDIC Spot Me eligibility require and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in Spotme and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Congratulations on your twins. It's going to go bad.

[James Pietragallo]

Someone's going to die, motherfucker. Hopefully it won't be you two killing someone else, which is also a possibility.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Or them killing you both.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So Nancy and her identical twin sister Krista are. She described them as like soul mates. Well, yeah, they're identical twins. You are. You have the same DNA, for Christ's sake. Yeah. DNA Sharer.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You have the same fingerprints. For fuck's sake. You're the same person.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I just learned they have separate fingerprints.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, they have separate. They have the same DNA.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Separate fingerprints. Same DNA.

[James Pietragallo]

Right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So wear gloves and spill your blood everywhere.

[James Pietragallo]

That's it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Frame your. Frame your brother.

[James Pietragallo]

Frame your. What's happened? We've had that before, too. So now the dad is a. Also her dad, Gary is a well respected social worker who ran his own business administering educational and social programs for the Canadian government. Oh, so he is. They're both come from educationally strong backgrounds here. Nancy's brother Jeff was an Edmonton police officer. She had a good relationship with her whole family. Twin sister, dad, brother, mother, and her other sister Jill as well. Nancy is very athletic and very outgoing. She is all energy. She's a ball of energy. She's a very skilled Ringette player.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What is that?

[James Pietragallo]

I had to look that up. And I will give you the definition from Wikipedia. Ringette is a non contact winter team sport played on an ice rink using ice hockey skates, straight sticks with drag tips, a blue rubber pneumatic ring designed for use on ice surfaces. While the sport was originally created exclusively for female competitors, it's expanded to now include participants of all genders. And although Ringette looks like ice hockey, it is played on ice hockey rinks. The sport has its own lines and markings and its offensive and defenses bear a closer resemblance to lacrosse or basketball. It's like not. It's non contact hockey is what it is. Essentially, check.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hockey is what they want, what they designed it for, but it turned into something else.

[James Pietragallo]

Non contact hockey. Yeah, that's what they designed it for is, you know, oh, the girls can't get checked into the boards, right? And then they saw some of these big Canadian farm girls and they're like, I don't know, maybe they can take her teeth. She goes about 230 with a flannel shirt on and she's chewing fucking red, man. I'm gonna go ahead and say give her some skates, you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

She looks like she's coming for your whole bottom row. Let her have it.

[James Pietragallo]

She just drank a half a bottle of whiskey I think she's okay to play. So she was into this type of shit. And she. When she's a kid, she has big giant thick glasses.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

But grows out of those by like high school. And she's an athlete and she's attractive and she, everybody likes her. And she's personality. She's described as the kind of woman who. What, Jimmy? Lit up a room. Lit up a room.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They always do.

[James Pietragallo]

They always do. Yeah. So she played all of this now her ringette. Basically at one point she hoped to play ice sports at the Olympic level. Now ringette isn't an Olympic sport, but she was trying to transfer into other things. She wanted to be an Olympic athlete. That was her goal. But her team had a matchup against Russia and she had a knee injury and then that was pretty much it for the Olympic dreams. So she liked. She made jewelry also. She liked art and fashion. When she's in Canada, she'll be working at IBM and also running her own clothing store in the evening.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

So very ambitious. She is. She's got a lot of irons in the fire, a lot of energy. Her friend said she's hilarious. She makes everyone smile. No one is ever sad around Nancy right now. Nancy had been involved seriously, like talking about getting engaged and stuff in the 90s here with a prominent Calgary businessman. Who can resist a Calgary businessman? They got cash, can't resist that. When she met Brad and she lost interest in her prominent Calgary businessman and was all about Brad after that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, milk piss on her and she's his.

[James Pietragallo]

The other thing is Brad, she's likes like real outgoing guys, like that sort of thing. And Brad is like quiet and reserved, so not her normal type. The only thing I can think is we know he's very tall. He's, you know, pretty tall guy. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe she just likes tall guys. I'm not sure. So she wanted to have. She wanted to have a family and a steady family life and have kids and all that. And she thought that Brad was the stable kind of cat that could put that all together with her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

She thought he was a good person to, you know, to start a small business with basically at that point. So she wanted to do all of that. And she told her sister that Brad felt safer than these other guys. She was going out. They felt like they could fly off at any time.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Pietragallo]

But yeah, Calgary businessman. Yeah, he could be going banging a Tim Hortons waitress tomorrow or something from a business trip or. You don't know. But Brad feels Safe. So Nancy's family said they found the relationship odd because he just wasn't her normal type. But he was a nice guy and fine and has a good job and college educated. So it's just not the guy they expected Nancy to pick, basically. So her mom said, choose the one you love. I guess that's. There you go. I mean, sure, it's not your fucking business.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Goes out with. Yeah, that's, that's the deal here. So they're going to meet in about 98 here it looks like they're going to meet. And it's basically a. They meet working for IBM in Calgary. They were both 26 years old. They're both in the tech industry. You know, why not? So now her sister Jill, while they're living together, her sister Jill would come become close to them. She was a teenager at the time. Jill was younger and she would stay with them at their apartment nearly every weekend in Calgary. She'd like go to hang out with her big sister, which must have been awesome for her. I mean, that's absolutely where you want to hang out. Early 2000, Bradley Cooper gets an offer to transfer with Cisco Systems, the company to its Research Triangle park office, which is in Raleigh.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So Brad buys a big old diamond ring for Nancy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And they plan a big wedding. But Brad, he. Then he gets this job working for Cisco. So they said, well, fuck, never mind, let's scrap the big wedding. Let's just get married right now so you can move with me to North Carolina. Because otherwise she can't come because she has to have to work on all the visa issues and all that kind of thing. So. But if she's his wife, then she can come because she's attached to his work visa.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So they had a small ceremony at a restaurant in Calgary on a Friday night in October of 2000. She wore a white sundress, not a big giant wedding gown or anything. They kept it simple. Only Nancy's family, Brad's brother and a couple of friends were there. That's it. Very small, very small deal. So he got a work visa. And Nancy's visa allows her to live in the United States but not hold a job.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, she's not allowed to have a job.

[James Pietragallo]

She's not allowed to have a job. That's part of it. Now she can apply for a work visa while she's here and do all that. But initially when she gets here, no job. She's not. Does not. That's not part of her visa is working. So they marry they move to Carrie. And Carrie. A little bit about Carrie here. This is when it really, really boomed. Like in 1990, there was like 15,000 people in Cary, and then there's 90,000 by 2000 and 175,000 by now. So it's. It's crazy. Yeah, it really blew up. So they moved there right in the cusp of when things were really getting big.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Good for them. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So, yeah, not. Not bad at all. National Geographic called it a futuristic Pleasantville. They said, a town of young, affluent and educated. Streets lined with sprawling houses, SUVs and sports cars glinting in broad driveways.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Nat Geo's writing about your town, writing.

[James Pietragallo]

About your town here, which is wild. In 2001, more than 80% of the population of Carrie worked white collar jobs. 80%. 80%. That's wild. 90% of the households almost were comprised of married couples with children. In 2001. That's a lot. That's off the charts ridiculous. So. So January 2001, they settle into a 2800 square foot home in the Lockmere subdivision in Cary, which is a very nice, affluent area. He's making over 100 grand a year back then, which is crushing it back then. I mean, that's doing great. She liked it when she got there. I mean, Nancy was into it. She spent hours doing jogging paths all around the neighborhoods and stuff. There's good places to jog, so she couldn't play her ringette anymore. But she can run. She completed several marathons over the years and all that kind of thing. Here she would recruit friends to run with her. Come run with me. Which is the invitation I'll never take from anyone. Come run with me. No, no, no. Where are we going? Who we running from?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why?

[James Pietragallo]

Unless I'm running from or towards something, I'm not running. Or like, you know, to score a goal of some kind in a touchdown or a fucking basket or something.

[Jimmy Wisman]

If something behind us is not on fire or there's red and blue lights. I'm not. I'm not.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm not running or I have a ball in my hand or chasing someone else with a ball. Those are the only circumstances where running is coming in for me. I'm done.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A lot of walking around my neighborhood lately, but I'm not doing any running. I have to do the walking because I feel like I'm gonna die.

[James Pietragallo]

Love walking around the woods. I'm not running around him, though. That's insane. So she would just all sorts of jogging here. Coop, Nancy and her friend Jessica Adam, who will come Up a lot in this story were training for a late summer half marathon in Virginia.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They're gonna do a halvesy. Huh? Shit.

[James Pietragallo]

This is how much energy she has. She's making me tired here. Nancy, she would strap on fucking roller blades and a backpack to go to the grocery store. Just.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's going to bring home the groceries in the backpack.

[James Pietragallo]

Just getting a few things. No worries.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, but what do you do with those blades when you get to the store?

[James Pietragallo]

You carrying those fucking roller blade, otherwise you have to bring shoes with you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Or walk barefoot.

[James Pietragallo]

Right. I think if you're like a rich lady and around here they go, oh, isn't that quirky? You know what I mean? If you were a teenager, they kick you out of the store. But if it looks like you own a home, they go, she's quirky.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Look at her squeezing the avocados in her row.

[James Pietragallo]

That's so fun. Nancy also, and this is her and Brad both, as we'll talk about. But Nancy has a bit of a wandering eye from time to time. Oh, yes. Some very big controversies here, I guess. Apparently, according to her sister Krista, her twin, she had met a man in Florida while visiting her, a friend of hers down there during the first year of her marriage.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And that man later came to her sister Christa's wedding in Canada in August 2001. And Nancy hooked up with him up there, so much so that she wasn't. Didn't want to return to North Carolina. Her sister said she was planning on leaving Brad after 10 months of being married and hooking up with Florida man here. So obviously the marriage isn't perfect. From the outside, it looks fine, but clearly everybody's not super happy if you can be pulled away that easy. Yeah. So By Christmas of 2002, things are not going well. Still, for them, it's a little bit tough. Now she's unable to work legally in the United States without a visa. And she's, you know, she's bored, number one. And this is, you know, there's not. She like streaming services. She can't catch up on her show all day long or anything. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Can't just watch Law and Crime and watch it full trials all the time on YouTube over here. So it's a little boring here. And she returned to Edmonton for Christmas in 2002 and told her family she didn't want to go back.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not going back to Canada the next.

[James Pietragallo]

Year, she told her family she wanted to go back to Gary. Yeah. But her sister Jill said, you Decided to marry him. This is your husband. You should make it work. You can't just run away every time you're feeling slightly. Whatever. Have you talked to him? Basically. And so. And this is her younger sister, too, who's much younger than her, is like.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A little more reckless.

[James Pietragallo]

Didn't you get married? Like, this isn't your boyfriend. You got married? I thought you guys own a home together, for Christ's sake. So Brad had to come to Edmonton and convince Nancy to come back with him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Pietragallo]

He had to go from North Carolina to fucking Edmonton, which is in western Canada, by the way, and very far from North Carolina. That's a trip.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's got to take time off of work to go talk his wife into coming back.

[James Pietragallo]

Coming back with her. With him. So things start to get better when they come back, because in 2003 and everything Nancy starts to. She gets a car, first of all, which helps a lot, because then she's, you know, doesn't have to be within rollerblade range of everywhere to get there. So she starts to make friends a little bit and has a car, and then she starts to make some money and working as a nanny for some of her friends. So she'll watch a few kids and make a few bucks under the table. Cash. The. Yeah, the immigration services don't need to know about that. She's got a car. She's starting to feel like a person here now. Absolutely not Having a car. Just sitting in a fucking house somewhere with no car, no way to go anywhere in a foreign country. In a foreign country, mind you, your family is thousands of miles away. All your friends, everything. You know, even. You can't even get the things you. There's no poutine in North Carolina.

[Jimmy Wisman]

None.

[James Pietragallo]

None. You're not getting that shit. I don't know if they have that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Western Canada. There's not even a Leafs game on or whatever the fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

Nothing. Calgary Flames, Edmonton Oilers. No one's. No.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Can't watch it.

[James Pietragallo]

Can't watch it. Nothing is the same. You're like, what is this, the Carolina Hurricanes? Is this even a real hockey team? Come on, man.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They just showed the outside view, and there is trees and green.

[James Pietragallo]

There's trees and green. There's not a fucking drop of snow on the ground. This is crazy. So February 2004. They have a daughter, the couple here, Nancy gives birth to a daughter named Bella in 2004, which is a very common name. In 2004.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure is.

[James Pietragallo]

That was like one of the most common names in 2000.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think it Was the most.

[James Pietragallo]

And then, yeah, so much so they're. The Twilight lady was like, obviously, I'm naming this girl BELLA. So in 2006, they have another daughter. This is Katie, now that's born. So they got Bella and Katie here. 2004, 2006, now December 2007 comes around, and Brad, he's got an admission that he makes to his wife here. He had an affair, and he tells her about it. Not only did he have an affair. Yeah, he had an affair with more than one woman, first of all. Not at the same time, but he wasn't. Wasn't having foursomes or anything, but then.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Run off to Dubai or something for a couple of nights.

[James Pietragallo]

No harems or anything like that. But he is banging several different women at the same time, including, Nice, a close friend of hers, of course, of the family of both of them. They hang out with. He's friends with the husband, she's friends with her. They're both friends together. Nancy wanted to leave at first, but she didn't. She decided that she couldn't. She went to a lawyer, and a lawyer told her if she left the house, she could lose everything, possibly even custody of her daughter.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, she doesn't get half of anything because she doesn't even belong here.

[James Pietragallo]

She just runs it. Yeah. So the lawyer told her to stick around and, you know, do everything by the proper channels. If you're gonna do anything or work it out, do whatever you want to do, but if you want to leave, you got to do it with paperwork or else you're. You're fucked here. So I guess they had the couple that he ends up. The wife that he ends up having sex with here. They had all met at the Triangle Academy preschool for overachieving toddlers. Basically, that's. These are rich, highly educated people that think the kids need a, you know, a real comprehensive education by two and a half, or else they're falling behind.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Triangle, I mean, that's. I realize that's what the area is called. Yeah, this is like a love hexagon. This is so, so busy.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a lot, man. So now that's when they are. They also met the Jessica Adam lady there that Nancy is friends with. And they both showed up the day before preschool was set to start, and they were talking about it. They said they bonded very quickly, became very close. That's what her husband, Jessica's husband, Brent or Brett said. So even the kids loved her, too. They said she'd lead gaggles of kids through the neighborhood on a hunt for frogs.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Shit. Like, come on, kids. Yeah, like, she's find frogs. She's got energy, and it needs to come out somewhere. So she seemed to love motherhood. Everybody said, sounds like it. But she couldn't wait to, because the kids were like, you know, toddlers at this point. She was waiting for them to get off to regular school so she could maybe get back to work, is what she was talking about. You know, start doing something here in Canada. She'd run a clothing boutique and also worked for IBM. And now she's taking kids to look for frogs. She's a little bored. She's a smart lady.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Entirely different day.

[James Pietragallo]

Totally. So she spent her days hanging out with the kids, and they said she always made everything look glamorous, no matter what. Even if she had a baseball cap on, she looked glamorous in it. Her friends said everything just came naturally to her. She made it look easy. Now, by February 2008, things are really coming to a head between Brad and Nancy here. Brad cancels Nancy's access to bank and credit card accounts.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not allowed to have money now.

[James Pietragallo]

Not allowed to have money. And he would dole out an allowance. Every Friday he'd give her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, Christ.

[James Pietragallo]

And unbeknownst to her, he would monitor her email correspondence with lawyers and friends and all this type of shit. This started in April of 2008.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's the one that cheated.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. Well, she cheated, too. They both cheated.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, but he's doing lots of it.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, she's also doing lots of it, as we'll talk about later. They're both cheating like crazy. There is no. There's no bad guy in the cheating aspect. They're both. Neither of them are faithful at all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's saying he's cheating like crazy and he's monitoring shit. Well, allowancing.

[James Pietragallo]

You're gonna hear something later where you're gonna go, jesus Christ, he should have started that shit three years ago.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

Because. Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a doozy. It's a doozy. But this is not. You can't be. You can't fucking spy on people. That's crazy. If you're spying on someone, it's over already.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's already done. It's been done for so long. If you're reading any correspondence they're having, it's done. You just. You're just looking for a reason for it to end. Just end it.

[James Pietragallo]

Something. And also, like this allowance business. This is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's bizarre.

[James Pietragallo]

This is some bizarre, weird Ricky Ricardo shit here you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So 2008, she decides that she doesn't want to reconcile things with Brad. Nancy doesn't. She's tired of this shit. They agree to pursue a separation. They talk about it and they agree, okay, we'll get a separation. So she hires a lawyer to draft a custody agreement to get this ball rolling. This is Alice Stubbs. She's a Raleigh lawyer. And she outlined a proposed separation agreement. And Brad Cooper seized this agreement in 2008. The proposal described by this lawyer, Stubbs, was. The proposal was described as aggressive. And a first draft that she expected to change would have required Brad. Because this is just the first draft. This is your first negotiating, jumping off point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Here's what I would love. But if you want to.

[James Pietragallo]

But obviously I'm not going to get this right. If I want a grand a month. If I want a grand a month, I'm asking for 1,500 is what this works like. And hopefully we'll settle on a grand. You know what I mean? That's what I feel like it. So Brad was required to pay $2,100 a month in child support in what year? In that year. 2008.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

Which is a lot. That's steep. He'd also be responsible for paying all costs for the Cooper girls to get a private education from kindergarten through high school. Private school.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That is the bummer of putting them in private right out the gate.

[James Pietragallo]

And include Nancy Cooper as the beneficiary on his life insurance as long as she was alive. So not only that, now she's also going to get his life insurance. Wow. That's what. That's what this is part of, Nancy. According to Stubbs, the lawyer was upset about an extramarital affair that her husband confessed in 2008. Because it's with one of her friends. That's why she was really mad. That's mad. That's the one you're going to be mad at? Yeah, some.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The other ones, I don't care. This one's the one that sucks.

[James Pietragallo]

No, the Hooters waitress. Fine, whatever.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

My friend who comes over and has dinner parties with us. Now that's a problem.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's stabbing me right in the chest. Not even in the back. It's stabbed me straight up.

[James Pietragallo]

She also complained to the lawyer that the. That Brad had not been involved with their family life or really helped at all with their children for years. Doesn't do anything with the kids. That's what she's saying. I mean, that's part of the you know, that's everything Brad would get to see in this draft. The girls, two weeks each summer, although they could not be consecutive. So all summer you get them for one and one. I'm sorry if I'm paying for the private education all the time. I'm seeing the girls whenever I goddamn well please. You know how expensive that is?

[Jimmy Wisman]

If I'm footing not just that bill, but every other bill in their life, I can see them when I want.

[James Pietragallo]

That's the thing. And unless. And this is what I don't understand, when people go through a divorce, they're trying to hurt the other person. And this is totally normal. Men do this, Women do this. Everybody does this. This isn't specific to anybody. But to. Unless the guy, unless the guy, the woman, anybody is abusive to the children or they're danger to the children or something like that, there should be no reason to not let the other parents see the children whenever you want. That's.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, it's really frustrating when people do that and fight back and forth via the kids because they're just doing it.

[James Pietragallo]

They're dangling them from a string like they're bait and it's not going.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And they think they're hurting the other person, but they're just hurting children. And that's fucking crazy.

[James Pietragallo]

That's great. But that's also. In a divorce, people don't see it's straight.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's amazing.

[James Pietragallo]

They don't see straight, man. A lot of people. Because every. Everybody does this. So blurry. He would pay for their travel costs to and from Canada as well, because she's going to move to Canada with them. So now he's got to pay to ship them back and forth, though. She did. But Brad Cooper salary in 2007 was 135,000 bucks a year.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Paying fucking $2800 a year. Three grand a year. That's in child support. Thirty grand.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. His salary is 135 grand. So that's a good chunk. And then the travel costs and everything like that. And also the lawyer said that Nancy had to borrow money from her sister and parents to pay for the. For the separation agreement to be put together. 7,500 bucks for this lady to do this. So the lawyer said that Nancy hoped the split would be amicable, but she realized that wouldn't be the case after Brad said, this separation proposal ain't gonna fucking work. We're not doing this shit. So also, under that draft, Nancy would have gotten all the proceeds from the sale of the house after the mortgage sales Expenses and other debts accrued had been paid.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This is what happens when you fuck your wife's best friend.

[James Pietragallo]

You can't fuck your wife's friends. This is. You're. They're gonna get a little bit bitter at you and come for everything. Her attorney also proposed that Nancy would get what was. Whatever was left in her husband's 401k plan after a loan taken out on the fun had been satisfied. Brad Cooper would have. Brad would have gotten his stock options from work, though. But she gets the 401k and she gets to be on his life insurance and all that. After this, though, everybody said. Family neighbor said the tension escalated in the Cooper family because they're still living in the same house but with this document over them. They said Nancy complained to her friends that Brad had become mentally abusive and cruel and made demeaning comments to her in front of the children as well. So the lawyer said it was not going to be amicable after that. She was willing to do whatever was necessary to get an agreement so she could get out of this bad marriage and go to Canada. Now she had. And this. Wow, this is fucking crazy. She scheduled the sad. What she called the saddest party ever. Oh, she had talked to a lawyer and Even scheduled on April 19, a get together with friends. Dubbed the saddest going away party ever, she called it. But before the get together, though, a few days before, Nancy hired a lawyer, another lawyer. And that's when the separate or that subs lady. That's when the separation agreement ended up happening. He objects to the separation plans. And now the party wasn't a goodbye anymore because he wasn't. He's not signing it now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, no, of course not.

[James Pietragallo]

He said. No. So her friend said now Nancy wasn't free to leave anymore because unless they came to an agreement.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So spring of 2008, the Adventures of Brad here. All right. He has a blog called the Adventures of Brad What a douche. Chronicling his quote, accomplishments.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

These are all the things I can do.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He had a section, real long form resume.

[James Pietragallo]

He had a section entitled Goals completed.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, Christ.

[James Pietragallo]

Shit to brag about is what he should have called it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

For public consumption.

[James Pietragallo]

Let me put this out on the Internet. This is what diaries are for. This is what journals are for.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Write it and stuff it under a pillow. Fucking.

[James Pietragallo]

This is what your memory is for. In the spring of 2008, this included multiple Ironman competitions, which. That's what he was obsessed with training for. Ironman competitions all the time. His master's degree and a technical work certification. He was 34 years old, strong and upcoming, and training for a triathlon at Lake Placid. That was upcoming.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

Now back to the inside the house and the problems here. Nancy and Brad are sleeping in separate bedrooms. Yeah, obviously. So Nancy wants to move to Canada and Brad obviously has changed her mind. Yeah, plug your friend now. Apparently he. To make sure she doesn't leave, he has taken the girls passports from her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

From the glove compartment of her car. And now he says, well, I have as much right to hold their passports as she does. We're both their parents. But she says, you know why you're holding that? So I can't go. So, you know, it's all a big pissing contest at this point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a control move. Obviously not wonderful. Not a great fucking sign of good character there. Nancy's family said they understood that things were going bad. They knew that Brad had taken one of their daughter's passports and was listening to her phone calls, listening to Nancy's phone calls as well. Still, they said they always liked Brad. He's always been a nice, steady guy as far as they're concerned. He. He's a provider and you know what I mean, they have a house and he doesn't beat her up or anything like that. So by still paying the bills by traditional standards, you know what I mean? Like my grandmother, Italian grandma would say, what the hell do you want? She would yell at Nancy, may you have nice house, may you buy things you want. Why you complain? And then she said this, because I've heard her say this, but what man doesn't cheat? She'd say, who cares? That's what she'd say. What the hell do you care?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Who cares whose house?

[James Pietragallo]

Whose house is it in the end? Your house? What do you care who would be what he does outside? Huh? That was like an old school mentality though. It was crazy. So who knows? She's out of her mind, man. So, yeah, this is all going. And so they said, Brad, they said basically, like Brad's always been good. They just kind of figured this behavior was what happens in the tension of a divorce. Like neither party seems to be acting in their, you know, their best, basically.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Their interests are certainly skewed. Both sides of the equation.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And the dad asked her, are you afraid for your life? Is it that? Are you afraid for your physical safety? And she said, no, not at all. And he was like, okay, well then, you know, this is. This is what happens in life. Yeah, this is Going to take a while. It's going to be unpleasant, and that's divorce. It's going to suck a lot. It's a lot of he said, she said here now, Brad. If you ask Brad, he'll say Nancy's a shopaholic who spent all their money with an obsession for fashion, art, and jewelry. That's what he says. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about the most safe sponsor there is. SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

SimpliSafe.com S I M P LisaFe.com that is correct.

[James Pietragallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey, everybody, Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about quints. Fall is here. Winter's almost here. Time to flip that wardrobe over. You know what I'm saying? You're gonna trade in the flip flops. You're gonna need some sweaters now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Time to get some flannel.

[James Pietragallo]

Get some jacket. Get some flannel. Some long pants. And I'm excited about that anywhere. I love it. So we're gonna, we're gonna upgrade some nice stuff, like a cozy cashmere sweater, maybe a leather jacket. That's actually what I bought from Quintz. I found a very cool, like, distressed leather jacket that's really cool. Looks like it's like old schooly kind of, but like new, new design. I really like it a lot. It's awesome. And you're gonna like quints, too. Quince offers affordable, high quality, essentials for any wardrobe that includes seasonal must haves. Like a Mongolian cashmere sweater from $60. That's a bargain. Comfortable pants for any occasion. Like Jimmy's linen pants that he loves here. Upgrade your wardrobe with pieces made to last with quince. Go to quince.comsmalltownmurder for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com smalltownmurder to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsmalltownmurder now back to the show. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Lumi. Everyone's had times where you're unsure of your smell. You're like, what's going on? I don't know about this. You know what I mean? When you're walking around and you're just like, did I? Did I?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Thank goodness I have this sweater on.

[James Pietragallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

Whole body.

[James Pietragallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

He said that he and his wife were buried in debt. Their credit card bills were up, were over $45,000, he said, and he blamed that on her love. Nancy's love of, quote, $8,000 paintings, designer clothing, Tiffany jewelry.

[Jimmy Wisman]

$8,000 paintings.

[James Pietragallo]

$8,000 paintings. Who the fuck, not me is the answer to that question.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'll go to a museum if you're.

[James Pietragallo]

An art person, I guess. But I don't know shit about art. So I am not spending $8,000 on a fucking painting.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I like art. I like that.

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know enough about it. Yeah, you could show me something that's 30 bucks and I wouldn't know the difference is the point I'm making. So I don't need to spend eight grand on shit. I go, that looks really nice. You got any Bob Ross's? Those are really cool. I want like a. Some snow and some mountains in a cabin, if that's possible.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I bet a Bob. I bet a Bob Ross is eight grand now.

[James Pietragallo]

Maybe, but he painted thousands of those fucking things.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So many.

[James Pietragallo]

Because There was like 400 episodes. We've been watching it lately. There's like 400, as you know. We were watching it. Yeah, we were watching it together. There's like 400 episodes. And he would paint every painting three times for each episode, is that right? He'd paint one beforehand just to get what he was going to paint, idea.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Of what to do, and then he'd.

[James Pietragallo]

Know what he was going to paint. So then he'd paint on the show and then he paint another one afterwards as like a giveaway to somebody or something or whatever the fuck. So there's a lot of Bob Ross's floating around out there. But they got to be worth something, I would hope.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know, the man's dead and when they die is when they go up in price, right?

[James Pietragallo]

But there can't be normally, like, you know, there's not fucking 20,000 Picasso pieces floating around out there. That's why they're expensive. You know, he didn't do. He didn't do three. Every week on PBS, the artwork is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

For sale and they're looking at 65 grand.

[James Pietragallo]

65 for Bob Ross?

[Jimmy Wisman]

For a Bob Ross, is that right?

[James Pietragallo]

You can blame Target for that, for selling his T shirt and making kids know who the fuck he was. Because 10 years ago you probably could have got it for nothing. So that's his story anyway. Is the jewelry and the paintings $8,000 paintings?

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's nuts.

[James Pietragallo]

Buying Bob Ross originals and shit as we 45 grand. Jesus. Her friends, though, say that Brad was a neglectful husband who trapped and basically starved her out of everything. Affection, money, attention, all that kind of shit. Her friends say that Brad had several extramarital affairs, including one who actually, because this was the friend of theirs she called Nancy to fucking blow up the spot on it. Oh, no. Yeah. He didn't tell her. She did. Her name is Heather Metor. M E capital T O R U R O U R me Tor. That's the mistress there. And he admitted this during a counseling session that he had an affair. This was after she had called her to tell her. So it wasn't like it was a surprise.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, surety.

[James Pietragallo]

But they were in counseling. And he admitted he acknowledged that he had sex with Heather. Me toor. They were all friends, like I said. This happened in the master bedroom closet of Brad and Nancy's house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. While his older daughter and me tour's children were in the house playing, they snuck up to a closet to fuck. Which is about as trashy as it gets.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's pretty.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that's trashy. He also admitted kissing Heather on several occasions in the car and acknowledged having oral sex with her on another occasion in his home.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So. Wow. Nancy talked constantly after that. That's all she would talk about with her friends. And everything is. Can you believe he fucked Heather? Basically. I can't. I have to get out of here so many times. He's going down on her in her house, for Christ's sake. This is insane. He's making it loving and shit. So she just wants to move to Canada with the daughters. And Brad said that Nancy, though she also strayed. He said, quote, nancy insisted that she did nothing wrong, that her relationship with the other man only happened once, it wasn't sexual, and that nobody knew his name. That was. She said, I just banged some guy, but it's fine. It's not sexual, so don't worry about who it was. We'll find it. We'll find out. We know who it is and we'll find out. Oh, we know who it is. And we know that there might be. There's an issue too. Wait till you hear. Now, she also found out that Brad never applied for her work visa. The whole time she wants a work visa, and he said he applied for it and it's just not going through. He never applied for it intentionally, making her unable to do anything. So in the year before her death, he would financially control Her a lot. To the point where she was selling her clothes and selling clothes like online and painting friends houses just so she could buy groceries because Brad's allowance wasn't covering shit. This is now it's not even just her. Like no more jewelry and paintings for you. You can't buy groceries for the house. It's crazy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And you turned her into a handyman.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. She's got to go around fucking changing people's light fucking bulbs and switching out ceiling fans to make a living. Nuts. So Brad would fill her car up with a limited amount of gas to ensure she couldn't get farther away than he wanted her to be. Basically. Yeah. That's a different level of control.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like it's giving her a quarter.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. And hacking her emails too. Obviously. We knew about that. I guess. By the way, an ex girlfriend of Brad's at this point because the divorce stuff was going on. An ex girlfriend of Brad's from Calgary came forward and filed an affidavit describing him as emotionally abusive and mentally cruel. This is to support Nancy, the affidavit read. I have never before and have never again been in a relationship with someone who treated me so poorly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's the worst.

[James Pietragallo]

She said that at the end of their relationship she feared for her safety. Friends in Carrie always said. Our one friend said, quote, this is about Nancy. She would sleep in the girls with the girls in her room with the car keys in her pants pocket and the bedroom door locked from Brad just in case. Ready to make her fucking run for it. Which sounds. That's familiar. I've been there as a child. I used to keep. I had a little go bag packed like Dexter. I had that when I was 8 because things were unstable and we'd be fucking taken off sometimes at 2 in the morning. So I wanted to have the shit I needed. Like I gotta have at least the outfit I want like my best wrestling figures in there. Stuff like that. Like that's. Yeah. So that's a shit feeling is what I'm getting at. Brad admits that their relationship had soured toward the end here. And he said he tried to help out more at home. He said. Tried to. She complained a lot. And he said. He tried to take it to heart. He said I loved. I love Nancy very much and I want to stay married to her. That's what he told people. I just love her so. Early July 2008. Nancy's family. The rents take Nancy and two and the two children on a family vacation to South Carolina to Hilton Head.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They Come down to visit. And yes, early July 2008, late June into early July, they said that Nancy had faded into an unrecognizable person. She wasn't her outgoing self. She was just a different person. Her parents said that something had changed. They could tell. They got a lawyer for Nancy. They hired one for her at that point and were making plans to try to figure out how to get her out of the house or buy out Brad's share or whatever. They're like, we're gonna help you get the fuck out of this relationship because it's. It's completely just diminishing you to nothing here as far as your personality goes and everything. So the mom said she was going to go to Carrie and help her out. When they said goodbye to her at the airport, Nancy was sobbing, saying, mom, I just want to go home. So, yeah, that's what she did. And she ends up going home to her carry home here. They said on the vacation, she talked about separating from Brad pretty much the whole time. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Because this is the most horrific, toxic horseshit.

[James Pietragallo]

It's just a mess.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. And it's eating her from the inside. And it's now manifesting on the outside.

[James Pietragallo]

She said, dad, I'm through. I need to get out of the situation. It's not great for the kids. It's certainly not great for me. No, it's bad for your. Yeah, this is a now protect your kids situation here. So Nancy returned to Carrie, though. She called her father and left a message about what a shithole the home was. When she got back, she was gone for like a week and change and came back and the house was fucking trashed. Like frat parties on frat. Like a frat lived there. Basically. A part of the message said, I've been furious all last night. All night last night and today. I'm so furious how disgusting the house was. When I got home, there was food and ants in the kitchen. He just.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ants didn't.

[James Pietragallo]

Just left food out on the counter. Didn't clean anything. He just lived like a complete slobber for a week and a half. Wow. So Friday, July 11, 2008, Nancy gets up by 5:00am, which is what she normally does. She has plans to go running with her friend Carrie Clark. The two of them were training together for the half marathon. But Nancy didn't feel like running that morning, so she called her friend and canceled. And she said, you know, I'll talk to you soon. We'll schedule something else, but today I can't do it. So later that morning she took Katie and Bella to the community pool at her friend's neighborhood. Her friend Hannah. She stopped by a deli on the way to grab lunch for everyone. Isn't that nice? Pick up sandwiches for the crew here. The girls swam and played while Nancy and Hannah had a chat. There she was complaining about Brad. Of course the shit part is her friends kind of have to get tired of hearing about it after a while.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Of course, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Even though you want to help your friend and everything, after a while you're like, oh, here we go again. This is all we're going to talk about. Okay, yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

At some point you go, it's enough. Just one night, don't talk about it.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, let's just try to forget how he forgot to leave for cash as part of their agreed upon budget that day. He was supposed to leave cash. She called Brad at work a few times to remind him that he'd forgotten and he offered to leave work and bring her some cash. But Nancy told him don't bother, never mind.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, stop calling me.

[James Pietragallo]

Well then why did you call me that? I'll come bring you some. No, nevermind then why are we on the phone?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why'd you call?

[James Pietragallo]

So that's whenever. This is the thing. What leads to a divorce can be someone's fault. But what happens during all this shit? Everyone's at fault. Everyone turns into an asshole. That's the thing. So she takes the girls mid afternoon, takes the girls heads home to get ready for a neighborhood party that they're going to that night. There's a big barbecue across the street at Craig and Diana Duncan. Oh, oh boy. She, Nancy had offered to cook ribs for the party. That's her gig here. So she stopped at the grocery store on her way home to buy ribs. So she's bought lunch and ribs so far. She had some cash on her, so she made the ribs at home. And as she did, she spoke with her twin sister Krista on the phone and you know, they're chit chatting here. And Nancy spoke on the phone also to Hannah and she continued preparing for the party. She told Hannah that she'll talk to her the next day about maybe going to the pool again, see what's going on. She finished cooking, she gets dressed, she has a sundress which is teal with black flowered print and flip flops. And she and the girls head across the street at about 06:00 to the cookout. Now she's one of the first to arrive at the party because she lives across the street and she also has ribs. You want to get those in there. So everybody. It's a potluck. So everybody's bringing dishes here on that night. Here. She's upset about her husband still. And she's talking about that as soon as she gets over to the Duncan's house and they're waiting for Brad to get here. Brad gets here at approximately 6:30pm because he's working that day. It's a Friday, so he gets there over the course of the. Of the night. She mentions that Brad is on kid duty this weekend. And I'm not dealing with the kids here at this party. So she's hanging out and doing shit. And he is like pushing them on the swings and taking them and feeding them. You know, a lot of sometimes. Sometimes couples do that. Like you're on kid duty and I'm not tonight or whatever, which is. That's tough.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But when they're out in public together.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's tough. So. But I mean, however you parse out the fucking. The duties, I guess. I don't know. So this is how this is all going. One of the hosts, Diana, the neighbor, she said that she was surprised that Nancy basically was in a dispute with Brad in public. She said they never fought in public, but they were fighting there all night. They were fighting here. She said that, you know, this Dunkin lady said that she had moved here too. She wasn't, you know, a native of Carrie either. She said that during this whole barbecue, she said Nancy was telling her that she was having an I hate Brad day. Told her. She told her neighbor that she wanted a divorce and she wants to move back to Canada with her daughters. This was even before Brad Cooper arrived at the party. She recalls Nancy saying, I hate you, Brad Cooper. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Then Duncan said, she clenched her fists and spat the words out like, really hates him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He really hates. She's mad.

[James Pietragallo]

When Brad arrived at the party, she, the host, recalled seeing the couple huddled off to the side in what looked to be a heated confrontation. Yeah, during this. Now during the party as well, Brad makes plans to play tennis the following morning with a guy named Mike Hiller. They hadn't had the opportunity to play in a while. Brad had canceled on Mike in the past due to Nancy not being home to watch the children. And they, you know, them fighting, basically. So Mike even took the added measure of asking Nancy, is Brad available tomorrow to play tennis just to make sure. Yeah, so she said, fine. So Brad and Mike agreed on a time of 9:00 the next morning. They also made plans with that couple, Mike Hiller and his wife Laura, to get together the following evening to play Sequence. So they're going to play tennis that morning and then they're going to have a dinner. They've been friends with them for years here. So Brad leaves with the two daughters about 8pm from the barbecue. So he's only there about an hour and a half. He's probably tired from chasing fucking toddlers around. Nancy stays late to mainly complain about Brad. Any of the neighbors that stay behind. It's just a circle with her talking about Brad and she's loosening up a lot as the party goes on. Talking a lot more shit. Her friend said she. Nancy ate ribs, pita chips and dip that night and had four or five glasses of wine and some beer. That's a lot. She's not a big woman. She's not a big woman. So she's. This is her party night. She's getting down here. She said that Nancy stayed till after midnight at the house over there. They said. They said goodbye and she left to walk across the street. And the barbecue host said that all the lights were off at the Cooper house when she was going across the street. Everybody's asleep over there. So when she got home, she looked in on Brad and the girls. He fell asleep in their room and I guess they would take turns sleeping with the girls. Yeah, there. So Brad, I guess had told someone that he saw her silhouette look in the room and then he fell back asleep. He said he was awakened by Katie crying at 4am so he took her downstairs so she wouldn't wake the older daughter. That's how that goes. This is the 12th. Now, he says that Nancy left about 7am to go jogging.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Wearing a white T shirt with a sports bra underneath it. Okay. She was scheduled. Nancy was supposed to paint a dining room for her friend Jessica Adam later that morning, but she never showed up. This is about like she was going to jog and then like 8 o'clock she was going to go over and paint. Now, she tried this. Jessica Adam tried to call Nancy on her cell phone and then at her home too. Now, Brad answered the house phone and told Jessica that she went running with a friend that morning. I don't know where the hell she is. So Jessica calls 911, which seems a bit preemptive, I would say.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It'S a leap. Sure.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a bit of a leap here. She calls and they said too in the recording. She's like Breathless, in a panic on the phone. Not just like, you know, this is weird. I don't know. Just maybe keep an eye out for her. She's like, oh my God. Oh my God. She's freaking out. She said Nancy was supposed to be at her house at 8am and hadn't shown up. And they're like, okay, okay, she's an adult. So your friend didn't show up to paint your dining room.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What about when she, When. When you asked her to help you move? Was she on tattoo?

[James Pietragallo]

God forbid if she doesn't show up to help you move. You're really. Wow. They must be fucking dead somewhere. Yeah, so you know, that's. And she said, well, it's not like Nancy to miss. To miss plans. So she called the house at 9:30 is when she had called the house and talked to Brad and Brad said she wasn't home. Hannah called a short time later and Brad told her the same. Not home, don't know. She went out jogging. She doesn't tell me everything she does. I have no idea what she's doing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So when she is, Jessica's on the phone with 911. The operator requested details about Nancy and this is what she says. Rather than give all the details that she's asked, she says, quote, she was expected here no later than 9:00 to help me with a project. And then she also has another appointment with a friend. Her name is Hannah, who just called me on the other line, hysterical because she's also now having the same thought that I am about her husband. If he's done something and I don't know, I mean, God forbid. But then she says, I don't know what I should do. Her husband and her are living together, but they're in the middle of divorce and he is. And then she just keeps humming and doesn't know what to do. So the operator 911 operator tells Jessica to give it some time. We're talking about an adult. If this was a four year old, we'd get right on it. But this is an adult woman who's a 45 minutes late to your house. Let's fucking take a chill pill there, Jess.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Who just happens to be going through a divorce.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. And just might need a drive or just, you know, whatever, clear her head. So she said, call back in an hour if nothing happens here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

But as soon as that call ended, Jessica immediately calls her friend Mary Anderson to drive her to the Cooper home because she was too distraught to drive. She can't even drive she's so distraught, we have no idea. She's literally a 45 minutes late and she can't even drive. She's so distraught.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Has she ever planned a dinner party or anything?

[James Pietragallo]

That's what I mean. Oh, they're late. Oh God. Jesus. Call the CO Every fucking time she has a party. Everybody. Cops are called 17 times.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What are they with the Donner party? Oh no, somebody's eating all of them.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh no, the Johnsons are in here. Oh Jesus, help us. So they didn't go on the routes where Nancy would typically run to look for. They went to the house here now. Yeah. A Carrie police officer arrives. She tells him that Nancy was expected at her house to paint. And now the neighbors and friends start gathering around the house too because they see cops out there. Jessica now is in the middle of their front yard with cops and half the neighborhood around, out of breath, losing her mind, begins screaming, quote, I know Brad did this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Made her 45 minutes late.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. So, I mean, Jesus, this is a lot, man.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They call her parents who were at a funeral in Edmonton.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh my God.

[James Pietragallo]

And the father ignored the calls because there's at a funeral. And the calls kept coming so incessantly that he had to pick it up. And it was their daughter Krista telling them that she got a call from Jessica saying that Nancy's missing. As they left the church, Gary said to his wife Donna, the story is not going to have a happy ending.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No shit.

[James Pietragallo]

So Jessica's on the war path, okay? She now gets in two huge arguments with the Cooper's friends over this because they're all going, hey, calm down a minute. And she's like, no, you don't understand.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I can't calm down till I see her face.

[James Pietragallo]

So she had gotten an argument with Mike Morwick when she instructed him on how to handle children during a crisis. Mike's wife Clea was caring for the Cooper children while Brad deals with the cops and talks to them and tries to figure out where his wife is. So she is then telling this woman how to deal with the kids. Right, well, you can watch them then if you want to. So Mike, the husband in the situation, was annoyed with her and told her to shut the fuck up. Basically said, stop trying to take control of the kids. We're watching the kids. Don't worry about it. Worry about yourself. So Jessica had another heated discussion now with Mike Hiller, the guy who was supposed to play tennis with Brad. So by that time she told everyone that she could possibly think of that she had contacts for in her goddamn phone that Nancy was expected at her house that morning to paint. But Mike told Jessica that didn't make any sense because I had plans to play tennis with Brad. And I talked to Nancy last fucking night and said, Brad's going to be available at 9am right? And she said, yes, no problem. So I don't think you. I think you mixed your plans with Nancy up. Basically.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Had to.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. So he even said. He even said she confirmed to my face that she'd be watching the children tomorrow while he played 10. She never mentioned she had painting plans or anything like that. So Jessica burst out and said, I know he fucking did it. Start screaming in this guy's face. She then told Mike not to talk to the police and that she would be the point person on this whole thing since she was the one who called the cops. So just. You stay out of this. You don't go tell the cops that Brad didn't kill her. I'll tell Brad that she's dead. I'll tell the cops Brad killed her and she's dead. Thank you. Huh. So he's. Now she's accusing Brad of killing her and harming her. Hiding her or something. She also made more statements during another 911 call. She referenced that Nancy would run with Carrie. But then it sounded like she said used to run with her on the recording. She used to run with her, meaning she's not around anymore. Which is very weird.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Bizarre. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

She mentioned that it was odd that Brad would call and ask for Carrie's number as well. I don't know why that would be odd.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

She said, do you have this. He said, do you have this person's number who my wife is supposed to be running with? Which makes.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

All this. That's what anybody would do, I would think.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So Jessica also said that it was odd that Nancy didn't tell her about any plans to run, but that didn't make sense because they hadn't. They don't really run together a lot, those two. It's. Nancy runs on her own. She runs on her own. So it's like we don't. And the cops go, yeah, none of this is a red flag for us. Basically, all the shit you're telling us just sounds like an adult woman is doing something for two hours.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So this is all very normal.

[James Pietragallo]

And you're out of your fucking mind. Basically. Like, calm down, Jessica. Karen's Do Karen things. You're being a real Jessica right now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You're doing way too much Jessica shit right now this is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Calm down.

[James Pietragallo]

You're having a full jess out at the moment. You need to calm the fuck down.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You're really jessing it up.

[James Pietragallo]

You're jessing out hard right now. So Brad tells police, you know, she left shortly after 7 to go jogging. And that's what happened. He said, okay. Now this immediately gets into The Press. She's 34 years old, blonde, attractive, affluent, and missing mom and miss and a mom. Fucking as you know, that'll blow right up in the sky. Especially in Cary, North Carolina.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That is tabloid fodder right there. That's fantastic.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, shit. So the town tries to calm everybody down. There's a statement, the general public is not concerned about whether a drug dealer kills another drug dealer. People are concerned about the things that happen in their neighborhood or to people who are in the same station in life or the same socioeconomic position. This is. The assistant district attorney said this. We don't give a shit about people who aren't just like us is what he just said. That's who gets. That's what gets their attention. He said, there's a lot of people that jog and carry and all over the country and you know, everybody who goes out jogging is thinking, what happened to this woman? This man says she went out for a run. Then the chief here, Chief Bazemore, publicly states that this is an isolated incident and that joggers are safe and don't worry about it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Don't worry about a thing.

[James Pietragallo]

All good. Basically, then, there is a rumor here during one of the press conferences with this Chief Bazemore, a reporter asks if she could confirm a rumor that Brad had purchased bleach at 4 o'clock in the morning the day Nancy disappeared. Whose rumor is that, I wonder that this has Jessica's fucking fingerprints all over. No, I have no idea. I'm just kidding. Chief responded that she couldn't confirm or deny the report even though she. Even though. That it wasn't true. She said, I can't confirm or deny anything. So now she already knew that that wasn't true. He did purchase some kind of. As we'll talk about, he purchased Tide laundry detergent that morning, but not bleach. And it wasn't at 4:00am it was between 6 and 7. All right, so a lot of people will always believe that Brad purchased bleach because that was what was out first. And people never forget that shit. Now, they talked to Duncan's, the Duncans, the barbecue hosts here, and the Diana Duncan said that she first heard Nancy was missing. By a crowd gathering outside their house. After this woman had gone, she went to get her eyebrows waxed, nails done, and a trip to the farmer's market. Holy shit, how suburban. Fucking.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What a nice morning lady are you?

[James Pietragallo]

Oh my God.

[Jimmy Wisman]

With a wide brim hat and a vanilla latte.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, just pulling on up with a big bag of fucking asparagus, just ready to go. This is fresh. Brad Duncan, the woman here, she pulls in and now she can really see because her eyebrows have been waxed. She's got nothing, nothing in her way here. She said that Brad was acting odd. She said his reactions look false. They looked acted. At some point during the day, Brad asked Duncan, the neighbor across the street, to come over to the Cooper house and look for the dress that Nancy had on in the cookout the day before. Now, Duncan said she and Brad searched the house for a black dress and police officers wanted to let the search dogs sniff the dress before they started the hunt for Nancy. Okay, but before Nancy, Nancy had the problem is she didn't wear a black dress. Remember, she wore a green sundress with black pattern on it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right?

[James Pietragallo]

So it's different.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And she had a sports bra under a white shirt the day before. Right.

[James Pietragallo]

That morning when she went out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right? Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So this Duncan lady said she thought Brad was intentionally misleading her about the dress. She said she couldn't recall what Nancy was wearing that night. Even seeing later on seeing the dress she had on, the teal green dress. She said she still wasn't certain what she had on that night. Now there's Bella. Okay, Remember Cleo Morwick? She is the one of the targets of Jessica's rage as not tending to the children properly during the situation. She was watching the two children on the afternoon of July 12 while this was going on. And at some point, Bella, who's four and a half at the time, she's the older one, told Clea that she saw her mother that morning and she was wearing black shorts and a white T shirt.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

She said, I saw Mommy this morning. That's what she had on. Police didn't interview Bella though, at that time. They just figured she's four and a half, a little dummy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, yeah, yeah. She doesn't know shit.

[James Pietragallo]

She doesn't know shit. So, yeah, nothing. And you know a kid's gonna lose their memory pretty quick of shit. So she said this was around. She said at around 5:00pm she told the lady. And then the lady went and got a cop and was like. She just told me this just so you know, so that was. Detective Dismukes wrote that down. Clea, she said, quote, Clea told me around 5pm today, she spoke with the oldest daughter, Bella and asked her if she saw her mommy today. Clea told me she asked Bella what her mommy was wearing when she saw her today. Clea reported Bella told her mommy, told her that mommy was wearing black shorts and a white T shirt. That's from the actual incident report of the police report. Her husband and elder child saw her leaving for her run Saturday morning. Also on there. Now, the cops never spoke directly to Bella or if they did, it's not in any of the reports anywhere, which is very strange, I would say here. But anyway, NBC News now. Now this is getting national. Now. They don't even know where she is. They say. Now there's. This is a quote from NBC News, quote. In fact, police have yet to confirm that she actually left her home that morning at 7:00am as her husband stated. Oh, no. If she did, NBC News is saying they think Brad might have killed her. Basically, we don't even know if she left the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They're throwing some shit out there willy nilly.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yeah. Said. Where are the witnesses independent of her husband who saw her leave or enter another car or simply walked down the street that Saturday morning. Now they said. And then NBC News continued. Now unconfirmed reports are circulating that Brad may have purchased bleach as early as 4am The Nancy. The day Nancy was reported missing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Lester Holt. Take it easy.

[James Pietragallo]

Fucking calm down. Now here's another little discrepancy that comes around. I'm going to show you a picture of a bed. See that bed?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay. Does that look. That looks what? Slept in? I would say.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Both sides.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, both sides. Okay. Just. Just checking because the whole bed. Detective Daniels wrote in his report that the bed did not appear to have been slept in.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the fuck kind of shithole does he live in?

[James Pietragallo]

I don't understand. What are you sleeping on top of newspapers or something? The covers. And I'll put it on social media, but the covers are all like, pulled back. Like people just took the covers off and then got out. The pillows are like askew and mashed in and the sheets are ruffled like it looks real. Like some.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It looks brand new and fresh.

[James Pietragallo]

Made Detective Weird. Detective Daniels wrote this on. On this day, referring to the bed that the bed did not look slept in when asked. He testified later that it looked as if someone had sat in it. And when they asked the detective who first got there or wrote the Note about it. He said he sat on the bed. Why would you sit on the bed, you fucking idiot?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, why would you touch anything?

[James Pietragallo]

And didn't document that he sat in. It didn't come out till later. Then he took a photo of the bed and the bedding would later be sent to the Bureau of Investigation for bodily fluid and fiber analysis. And this guy didn't bother to tell anybody that he contaminated it by sitting on it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And it's the marital bed. So there's going to be some.

[James Pietragallo]

There's going to be some stains. Yeah, there'll be some kind of stains. So now she doesn't come home the rest of the 12th. Gone. Not there friend for days. The friends search for the couple days they go through the woods and lakes and all the routes that they might have jogged on and everything else. I mean between her and her friend's subdivision, which is six miles away, basically they cover everything in between there. They put flyers up as well here. Missing flyers as. We'll talk about a lot of those. And we're going to talk about also what Brad's. What Brad's story is and we'll get to that because I know I purposely haven't said that yet. He, he has a detailed blow by blow of what happened that morning. So we'll talk about that now. Missing flyers go up. They're posted throughout the town, handed out during coordinated search efforts on Sunday and Monday, July 13th and 14th. Police began receiving calls from people immediately who believe they saw Nancy. Oh, that. So that's interesting. Sixteen people reported seeing a jogger resembling Nancy Cooper. Some were 150% positive it was Nancy. They said because they knew Nancy. So they knew 150%. Some of the people said, I don't know if it was Nancy. It was a woman in a white T shirt.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a gal.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, but the other people said, I've seen, I've seen. I know Nancy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Some people say they waved to Nancy and she waved back. Oh, Nancy, hi. So and so.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So that's Nancy.

[James Pietragallo]

That seems like Nancy. Details from witnesses including clothing descriptions, build, hair colors, specific locations, times and even exchange greetings. Four people also provided information about a white and maroon van that was going around the area. This starting to sound familiar. Jogging vans. Missing. Missing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Did she happen to have a golden retriever?

[James Pietragallo]

I was going to say she had a golden retriever and if she's nine months pregnant. This is. We are looking for Scott Peterson here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Or there's a serial killer who does the same thing every day, same Shit.

[James Pietragallo]

It's like, oh, good idea. This is right around, you know, that happened 10 years before this. Yeah. So Rosemary Zednik lived in the same neighborhood as the Coopers. She didn't know Nancy, but she was certain she saw her that morning. She described how she was walking her dog and came face to face with Nancy as she jogged by. Rosemary said hello to Nancy and Nancy said hi and continued jogging. When Rosemary saw the flyer, she became very concerned. In fact, she was so positive she saw Nancy, she called police several times and no one ever followed up with her. She had to keep calling and calling.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Another similarity.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, Rosemary contacted later on attorneys here to give them the information because the cops didn't talk to her. They met with her and discussed the details. This is. There's a lot of people like this. Okay, Here is a. Ms. White advised that she was running on Carrie Parkway around 0800 hours when she saw a slight woman wearing a white hat, light blue top and gray shorts behind her and gaining. Ms. White advised that she turned on to lock mirror and was heading home. She did not see the other runner behind her and assumed she went straight toward Holly Springs Road. That doesn't exactly jive with the description of what she was wearing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

The another person, Mike Pashby, said that he saw a female runner with the same build of Ms. Cooper running south on the northbound lanes of Kildare Farm Road Bridge. She was just south of the bridge when he saw her. This was around 9:15 to 9:30. Could not provide clothing description. Now, there's a lot of joggers, by the way. That's the other thing. Another one, Diane Costello, she said around 9:35 she was traveling north on Kildare Farm Road when she saw a jogger she thought to be Ms. Cooper jogging against traffic on Kildare Farm Road at the bridge under construction. She said the jogger was wearing a white T shirt. Valerie Wentzel called and stated she was jogging at approximately 08:10 southbound on Kildare near the Wendy's. She said, I made contact with Ms. This is Ms. Wenzel. She advised that she saw Ms. Cooper that morning around 8:10 to 8:20. Described her as a tall, thin female with a ponytail, wearing shorts and a shirt. She saw her running southbound on the northbound side of Kildare Farm Road. Another one, Eddie Wong, said that he was walking. She was walking her dog. Edie Wong was walking her dog on the trail and Hemlock Bluffs Nature Preserve when she saw someone that looked like Ms. Cooper. She thinks the subject was wearing a white T shirt with pink trim and that her hair was pulled back. Keith Roberts walking his dog, saw someone matching Ms. Cooper's description. Called and left a message. Called back again and told dispatch he thinks he saw the missing person on Lavar Road east from Kildare Farm Road. She told him that he had a cute dog and she passed. So Nancy said, hey, cute dog. He also stated that he did not want anyone else to call him back. Don't leave me alone. By the way, I gave you all my info.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's all I've got. Don't call back.

[James Pietragallo]

Jesus Christ. Another woman here said our guy, Mr. Thompson stated that he and his friend were fishing at Lake Lockmere on Saturday when they they were loading their fishing boat onto the trailer at the boat ramp when they saw a female jogger on Lockmere Drive. The female was about the same height as the missing Nancy Cooper. The female was wearing a white baseball cap and white tank top. The female was running on Lockmere Drive toward Cary Parkway and she was running alone. A Sylvia Hink said between 7 and 8 o'clock she was sitting on her front porch reading her newspaper when she noticed two white female joggers. She stated they were not jogging together. The jogger in front was wearing light blue shorts, but she couldn't remember what the second jogger was wearing except something light. So there's that. Curtis Hodges said he called the cops to report that he may have seen a missing person, which is Nancy. He stated he saw a female running on Kildare Farm Road. Some woman was running on jogger for sure, 100%. There's a jogger heading outbound and was near the golf course. He stated he saw a picture of the woman posted and is positive it was her. He stated that she was wearing a white tank top and black shorts.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Another person said that they were driving through Regency Parkway 7:55am and stated while traveling there observed a white female with dirty blonde hair wearing a baseball cap with her ponytail coming out the back, wearing white shorts with maybe a tight sleeveless shirt. She advised that after seeing Nancy's twin sister on television, she remembered seeing the female jogger because she said, holy shit, that lady looks like that? Yeah. Does she look like this lady? That's better than a photograph if you have a twin best. If they're gonna like door to door with a picture, just send the twin with them. Have you seen another one of these? Exactly. Just exact replica of this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Put her in the same clothes and have her jog by and be like.

[James Pietragallo]

Did it look like that? That's exact. That's the greatest shit. Yes, I Would do that with twins on everything if it was possible. Here, another Beth Fenton was certain she saw Nancy on the morning of July 12, but the time the detective finally spoke with her was months later. And yeah, she said that a white female wearing a white T shirt with black stripes going down the side. She stated the female was wearing black shorts, a white sun visor, and light colored tennis shoes. She said that she was about 5, 7, 120 pounds. Interesting. Now one. One of the police officers here that was one of the first to arrive at the home the day Nancy disappeared was Daniel Hayes. He reported he saw a woman who looked like Nancy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, even the police see it.

[James Pietragallo]

Jogging at the bike lane at 7am while he was on his patrol. This was the same location where Rosemary, the one woman, reported seeing Nancy as well. Officer Hayes wrote about this in a report after seeing a photo of Nancy in the Cooper home. That's when he did. He saw a photo. He's like, oh, that's that lady I saw this morning. I saw her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Pietragallo]

So that's very interesting. Although two and a half years later, when it comes up in court, it never. He never mentions that. No, he said. Finally, I also remembered, this is from his report, that when I first started my shift, I was traveling east on Lockmere drive. At about 7am I had just passed the first lake off Lockmere when I noticed a white female runner was heading west toward Lockmere Drive, running in the bicycle lane, wearing a light blue tank top, matching shorts, light brown hair, ponytail. At the time, I thought nothing of it except wondering, why is she running in the bike lane and out on the sidewalk?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

So there's a lot of people who said they saw her. Now, let's start with much like Lacy Peterson, let's start with the van sighting. Lots of van sighters. Okay. By the evening of July 11, which is the night before, there were already independent reports. This is before she went missing while they were at the barbecue. People are calling the cops saying there was different Ford independent reports about suspicious vans in the area.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

The night before. The descriptions weren't exact. Some described a white work truck, others described a white and maroon van. But everybody said that there was suspicious activities going on with these vans.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Here. Brad actually informed Detective Daniels that Nancy had mentioned an attempted abduction of a jogger from a van as well. He stated about two months ago, Nancy had told him someone in a van tried to kidnap a jogger. And he stated that she had not been involved in this and had only heard about it secondhand, which I mean, Christ almighty, she could have read that on fucking Facebook, you know what I mean? Nancy also mentioned something about a red van to Diana Duncan and some other friends. This is right out of Nancy's mouth. So it was interesting. There were email warnings between them to be careful when jogging alone. So they asked Nancy, did she ever tell you she heard someone in a red van tried to abduct a female jogger? And she said, yeah, it rings a bell when you say it, but I didn't remember it before you asked. Following are the witness descriptions here. Jan Boyer, 8:45pm Friday night, the 11th barbecue night. While walking her dog, she saw what she described as a white truck heading toward the cul de sac, where later on toward a cul de sac. The van had no headlights. She noticed and thought that was odd because there was nothing back where the van was driving and it was dark and the headlights were off. So that seemed odd. Nothing good going on nails there. Dale Kurbritz said just past midnight on that night, Friday night, the 11th, so into the morning of the 12th, Dale awoke to the sound of his doorbell, which would ring when his outer storm door was open. So he had like one of those. He went to see who was there and saw a white van behind some bushes. Then noticed someone speeding away in the van down the street at a high speed with the lights off.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Who just opened my fucking storm door.

[James Pietragallo]

Tried to just see if the door was open apparently.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

He called police and requested patrols of the neighborhood. The police were called at 12:17am so this is three and a half hours after the last sighting. Curtis Hodges. At 7:10am the morning Nancy went missing, ten minutes after Brad said she left, yeah, he noticed a woman jogger near Lockmere Golf Course, then saw a van driving toward him. As it got close to the woman, it did a U turn. When he checked his rear view mirror, there was no sign of the van, so it continued in that direction. It did not appear to be traveling in his same direction, which would have been expected. In a U turn later, he saw the missing flyer of Nancy Cooper and was positive she was the woman that he saw. By the time the detectives talked to him a couple months later, though, he said he was 90% sure. He described the van as an older model. Reddish and reddish and white, maroon and white, with two Hispanic men in the van. And then Sylvia Hink said about 9am the next day, day after Nancy went missing, the 13th, she was walking in her neighborhood when she noticed a maroon van parked at the intersection of Belmont Forest and Fielding Drive. Two Hispanic men were leaning against it. She found it odd because it was a Sunday and there was no work going on. And obviously, she said, obviously, these two Mexicans in a van don't live in my neighborhood. So I didn't see anything to paint for them.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They should be in church today.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I said, trabajo. And they gave me a fucking shoulder shrug and they said, okay, so psychic here comes in. All right, the morning of the 13th. This is about 24 hours after it said she walked out of the house. There's already a psychic involved. That's how big this thing blew up. The psychics don't come in until after the news has blown it up so they can make a name for themselves.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Or until after the crime scene investigators are already thoroughly exhausted.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, one of those. But she's in there. Immediately. Detective Daniels sent three officers to the Lockmere golf course on a tip they received from the psychic. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] switch. $45 upfront payment, equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of details. Need a holiday gift that will keep her sparkling all year long? Blue Nile, the original online jeweler has Experts on hand 247 who can help you find the perfect piece. Beyond that, Blue Nile makes the gifting experience easier than ever, with guaranteed free shipping and returns, as well as a wide assortment of jewelry of the highest quality at the best price. Right now, get 30% off [e-mail] that's bluenile.com for 30% off bluenile.com One of Nancy's friends, Desiree, gave the detectives the contact information for the psychic Brenda Shoulders, and this prompted a police search for the body at. For a body or Nancy or something at the Lochmere golf course in the culverts. It occurred at a time when they had already received calls from multiple people talking about they saw her jogging. So they were following the tip from a psychic, though. Now, July 14th, William Boyer's walking his dog on Fielding drive at approximately 7 o'clock in the Evening as he approached the cul de sac of an undeveloped area. It's a new construction area, so there's really just nothing there. Construction sites, basically. He heard squawking and saw buzzards in the trees and vultures swarming around. So he assumed there was a deer carcass nearby, as I would too when in my woods. So he continued walking and noticed what he thought was a deer. But then he came closer and realized it was a human body visible from the street. He ran away to get to find his phone to call 911 and first responders arrive at the scene. And this is the same location, by the way, where this guy's wife, Jan Boyer reported seeing the suspicious white work truck heading into this cul de sac with its lights off. The night before Nancy disappeared, Right. Same exact cul de sac that it was going, oh boy now. So they he calls 911 and the 911 operator said, do you think she's beyond any help? And the guy said, I think she's dead. I mean there's fucking vultures around. It turns out that it is Nancy that they find her body is face down with the upper body in a drainage pond.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Body had no clothing except for her sports bra that had been rolled up kind of under. So it came up under her armpits like she'd been dragged and it rolled. Detective Dismukes and Daniels went to the Cooper home to tell Brad that a body had been discovered and they think it's Nancy. Now like we said, searches were coordinated all over the place. Before that, there was already a website set up by Brett Adam and Diana Duncan to communicate with the volunteers like this was a coordinated effort. They didn't just go out willy nilly. Brett was Jessica. Jessica Adam, the one who called 911. Brett Adam is Jessica's husband. The last phone call received by Nancy the night before her disappearance was from Brett Adams phone cell phone at 12:35pm on July 4, or that was then. Now at 12:35pm on July 14, Brett. Brett posted on the website, this is before the bodies found. I just got finished updating the search map we're maintaining on Google. It shows the area that has been covered by volunteers reporting into both the Java Jive and Lifetime fitness search coordination points. If you've independently searched any area, please let us know via the contact forms below so we can keep focus on new areas that have zero coverage. Okay, now that's interesting now. So think about that. Now Brett's post also said, of course the police will Tell you, searching twice or more is standard practice, so it's certainly not a waste of effort to look again. Especially relevant given the heavily wooded areas and many small gullies involved in much of the search area. Which is exactly where they found her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

In a gully?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, gully. Perform an autopsy. She's been strangled, Nancy. That's the cause of death. So hard. The bone in her neck broke. The hyoid bone broke. She only wore the tangled sports bra and one diamond earring.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

No signs of sexual assault. Oh, okay. Now, Dr. John Butz performs the autopsy, which, of course, he does. You know which part of the body he goes for first. He described the death as a homicide caused by asphyxiation from strangulation. He said there's a faint linear mark across the central neck in the area of the thyroid prominence, approximately 1.3 inches in length. And the trachea contains a small amount of fluid and debris. This indicates that she was strangled by an object such as a thin rope causing a linear mark. Though he said that there's no ligature mark. It's just a linear mark.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, the debris found in the trachea can indicate that she was face down while gasping for air and breathed in dirt or water. That's possible. Another section of the report describes dirt caked on her knees and parts of her legs. Later, the SBI chemist examined the fingernail scrapings and also found debris under the nails. But wait till we tell you about the chemist. Holy shit. Oh, no, that's a different thing. Never mind. All of these things pointed to her having been killed outside, either at the location where found or any location where dirt was present. A lot of dirt on her outdoors. But if she was dragged, it would make the Brago up and put dirt all over her. Also.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, also that's. The house that was left in disarray is a fucking pigsty, too. There could be dirt in there.

[James Pietragallo]

There could be dirt anywhere. Exactly. So they're thinking about all of that. They said they didn't analyze and collect the debris found in the trachea for some reason. I don't know why, but there were a lot of things going on here. Now, the. The Wake County, Raleigh City County Bureau of Identification began investigating the crime scene. They diagrammed the location and position of the body and also drew the freshest tracks that led up to the body. Marked the position of other items found near the body. Two were electrical wires and a cigarette butt. Okay. They also measured the wheelbase of tire tracks found near there by obviously checking that Out. Now, none of the wheel bases match either Brad or Nancy's vehicles.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

And all the footprints found around her are all too small to be. Brad wears a 13.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's a big shoe.

[James Pietragallo]

That's the one I wear. You notice that footprint? So they're all smaller. All the tracks around her that they can find, they never take casts of any of the tire tracks or the footprints around her, by the way.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why?

[James Pietragallo]

Don't understand that. Never plaster cast at all. And also no detailed close up photos were taken. Okay, and that's interesting. So they also scoured the whole construction site where she was found, hunting for anything. Maybe she was taken into a, you know, behind a bunch of debris and attacked and then thrown here. Who knows? So the police say they have no suspects. They also say that her death was not random and that Carrie's residents have nothing to fear. We don't know who did it, but we're sure it was someone that really was pissed off at her. So keep on jogging.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Incredibly targeted. So, yeah, don't worry. Maintain your half marathon training.

[James Pietragallo]

Keep doing it. Chief Pat Bazemore said, I'm extremely confident that we'll bring this case to justice. Okay, Interesting. And the family's all there with the chief and everything like that. Jeff, who is Nancy's brother, said, we cannot possibly relay our thanks to volunteers who were tireless and tenacious in their efforts. Now, Brad wasn't doing the searches because he has the kids, so. Right, yeah, he wasn't doing the searches, but he also didn't come to the news conference either. The press conference.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You can't bring the kids around that shit.

[James Pietragallo]

The police chief expected that he would be there. I think she could probably drop them off with a neighbor for an hour, sit or something. Yeah, I gotta do the press conference for my murdered wife. If you could just.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That happens to be your mother, you know. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You know, if you could just watch them for a minute. So police spent the day with Brad at home, and Brad gave them their permission to search the family's home and cars. Later on, reporters questioned the police chief about Brad Cooper, asking her whether Nancy Cooper had asked him to move out, whether the couple had separated their finances, and whether he bought bleach. All this shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Can you give us the crime file? And we can just read all that?

[James Pietragallo]

And we'd like to read everything now to everybody. Tell you what, can we just have a trial, like, literally in the media? Can we do it right now, just at this press conference?

[Jimmy Wisman]

There are people at home that want to know everything.

[James Pietragallo]

So Bazemore said, we know that they were having marital difficulties, and that remains part of our investigation.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And, yeah, one of the friends here, Morwick, the one who watched the kids, said, at this point, we did not want to jeopardize the investigation in any way, nor do we want the. Want the hurtful images and stories to be propagated in a way that exacerbates an already incredibly difficult situation for those of us who are close to Nancy. Police say that Bradley was devastated when he learned his wife was dead. And friends said they would. They wrestled with how to tell their own children that Nancy's gone because they all loved her, all the friends. You could just tell her she moved back to Canada and nobody would. You know how she said a. All the time. At the end of everything, she said, that means she's Canadian and she went back there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Loves Wayne Gretzky. You don't know who that is either.

[James Pietragallo]

No shit. So Brad is certainly a suspect.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They told him on July 14 after his wife was found about this. And they told him a body was found. He was sitting at his dining room table. He rubbed his forehead with his right hand and held his head with his left hand. And he told detectives that Nancy usually wore a red and black sports bra when she went out for runs because this is before they knew it was her. And the detectives had not told him that the woman found near the drainage ditch had not nothing more than a sports bra.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So they said he held his hair and he moaned. The detective said, I did not see him cry. The groaning seemed a little strange and a little forced. They also talked. The detectives talked about photographs he took in the Cooper home the day that Nancy was reported missing. He said the day she was reported missing. He recalled the TV in the den turned. Was turned to a golf match that afternoon. That struck me as odd. A lot of people just put TV on in the background for noise and it helps them. So, like, I always. Whether I'm watching it or not, I'm working with TVs on in the background. I'm not even watching it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I've gone through. Yeah, I've gone through 10 seasons of family Guide. I've only seen a couple episodes.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that's what I mean. There just shits on.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And also they found it odd that when police came to the house, they found Brad Cooper was cleaning in the middle of the. When they got there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Pietragallo]

Cooper told detectives he'd been scrubbing the house while waiting for his wife to return from her run. He said that she came home from vacation with her family about a week before and she was fucking pissed to find the house was dirty. So I'm trying to fucking be better, he told the cops. I'm trying.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ants, guys.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I got actual bugs in here and shit. I need to set up traps. This is bad. So friends and family said they found it unlikely that he would clean up the house just to make Nancy happy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, investigators also noticed that Cooper had been cleaning the bathroom attached to the bedroom where his wife had allegedly been sleeping. An officer said he saw a dried stain on the bedsheet in that bedroom. Again, that's two adults live there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Don't look, don't, don't sniff that.

[James Pietragallo]

Anything. That could be literally anything. We have no idea. So he did also numerous loads of laundry in between the two days between the time his wife was reported missing and she was found.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, at the same time, I'm going to say, yeah, that's weird because it looks covering up. But at the same time, yeah, he's used to working a corporate job every day and he has nothing to do. So he might just be like, busy work, staying busy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know. Or he's covering something up. We don't know. So there. He washed the teal green sundress that she had worn to the neighbor's cookout. That's what the police say. Said he said he noticed a barbecue sauce stain on it, so he washed it. But later on it comes out at trial. I don't think he did wash it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No.

[James Pietragallo]

Because it had deodorant stains on the armpit and it still had a grease stain on it. Now, the grease stain might stay, but the deodorant stains will go away with a washing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They should. Yeah. Unless they're with that yellow shit.

[James Pietragallo]

You know something. Yeah. This is just, you know, she's slapping some degree on that shit's gonna go away with a washing. So the investigators go from room to room looking for clues. They take photos. The photos portrayed a cluttered house with scattered toys, boxes and clothes. In many rooms. Jessica Adam, the neighbor who called the cops and went being a real Jessica, she told investigators she noticed several things in the photos were different from the last time she'd been in the Cooper house. Oh, really? She said a duck collection is missing from the table in the foyer.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Duck. Duck collection.

[James Pietragallo]

Fake ducks. She's got fake ducks there. They're all there. And bamboo was missing from a large red vase. It was bamboo stick coming out of it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Lots of clothes were Hanging over the banister that had not been there the day before. Also, well, they might be drying if he's doing laundry. And could be he might have some things that he doesn't want to shrink. As someone who's tall, there's stuff you don't want to shrink because then you can't wear it anymore. So the duck collection, by the way, they make a huge deal out of this. The ducks were later found in a box somewhere. So they were put away just because Jessica hadn't been there that week to see every design update that they've made on their house. Jessica's a pain in my ass right now. I get that she's worried about her friend, but you gotta stop Jessicain so hard right now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And some people. Oh, God. Some people put things up for like a week and then change their decoration. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Or it's seasonal, too. I mean, what are we in? What is this?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fall?

[James Pietragallo]

Fall? Yeah. So, I mean. No, it's July. It's the middle of summer.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, there I thought you were talking about us.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. No, no, no. It's July. It's the middle of summer. So maybe they were up for the duck time for the 4th. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Maybe those were up for spring.

[James Pietragallo]

4Th. They could have been spring. Spring ducks once. Once the fourth hits, you go, we're definitely in the summer now. We're spring ducks. Yes. And especially if it's like a mother duck and a bunch of little ducks. Yeah, that's a spring direct decoration.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They're all growed up.

[James Pietragallo]

That's. That's it. They're flying on their own. Now, a photo of the inside of the bn BMW SUV that Nancy usually drove showed a purse on the floor and cash and a child's clothes on cash and a child's clothes on the seat. Jessica said she had seen a cell phone in the vehicle earlier that day. But Brad Cooper retrieved the phone from a drawer in the house for the cops. A receipt from a kangaroo convenience store was on the seat of the BMW sedan that Brad usually drove. A floor mat was on the driveway between the two BMWs. That's weird. Yeah. Yes. So Brad's story. Here it is. Okay. 4:00am he said that he's awakened by the two year old. Like we said, he went downstairs to try to calm her down, but they were out of milk. All out of milk. Yeah. Now, according to Brad, Nancy showed up right in the kitchen with him. She's an early riser, too. And they took turns dealing with the daughter while also getting some laundry Done. They're both always up. She's up to go running. He usually starts working normal. So eventually they realize that, look, we need to get milk. So Brad ends up going to the Harris Teeter store and there's video of him in there shortly after 6am to get some milk. Soon after he returns, Nancy said, shit, we're out of detergent too. I wanted to do another load. So he goes back to Harris Teeter to get detergent again with more footage of him in there. He said that. Yeah. While en route to the store, Nancy called him and asked him also to grab some naked green juice. Naked bran, the green green machine, I believe it's called that one. Not my favorite one. I like the citrus. The vitamin C1 is good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Look at you.

[James Pietragallo]

Love that shit. It's good shit. So further, get a naked juice for Bella. She likes. The older daughter likes it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's given naked to four year olds.

[James Pietragallo]

That's why that's like a $4, $4.59 drink. I'm not giving a four year old that. Fuck that. I feel like a four year old. I feel like a four year Old's kind of making their own vitamins. Enough, right?

[Jimmy Wisman]

They don't need you have a cup of Tropicana. I'm not buying you $7 12 ounces.

[James Pietragallo]

No, I'm an adult. I'm depleted. Yeah, I have shit to do. You're full of vitamins. There's vitamins falling on you at all times. So Brad enjoyed the drink and soon Bella started asking for it too, because she asked for sips of it just for kids like dark green liquids to drink. That's what all the little kids love now. He said that he later on he returned home, took Katie upstairs, the younger daughter to his office to finish her bottle. He heard Nancy yell up and asked if he'd seen her shirt. And then quickly said, nevermind. Have you seen my shirt? Oh, never mind, I found it. So after that he said he heard the door open and close at about 7am he said, that's. I think she went jogging. Yeah, she said she was going to go jogging. When she didn't return by 12:30, he said that's when he started getting worried. Jessica's bullshit was he didn't care about. But 12:30 he's like, okay, no one runs for five and a half hours. So that's when he started driving around and looking for her, he said. And he said his wife was often gone for long stretches of time, but not that long in a running game. So He. He told police he'd recently cleaned the trunk of his BMW because he had spilled gas in it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Pietragallo]

So. Detectives found no odor of gas or cleaning solution in the trunk, but said it appeared to have been vacuumed. The passenger compartment did not appear to have been recently vacuumed and was littered with paper in this. So nothing was input in there. In the house, the cops found Nancy Cooper cell phone, a key ring with her car and house keys on it. That's interesting. Usually leave with your keys. The affidavit later noted that people who knew her well said Nancy Cooper kept her keys and cell phone with her at all times because she didn't want her husband going into her car where she kept her passport and divorce and custody papers. Yeah, she had like a little roaming office there, so. Police said that Nancy wrote about her husband's actions and those documents may have been in the car. They also noted that when she was running, Nancy made a habit of clutching her keys between her fingers as every fucking woman on earth.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And if you don't, you fucking better.

[James Pietragallo]

If you don't, you better. Or you're a bad bitch. And that's cool too.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Good for you.

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know if you're some like fucking professional Christy Martin or something out there. No one wants to jump her while she's jogging. She'll beat the living shit out of you in the street. Or our friend Mandy Malone or something. She'll kick you right in the face. She doesn't need her keys, but a lot of people do. So they said that's what she would use. So for her to leave her keys at home wouldn't be normal. A detective observed that Brad Cooper had small red marks or scratches on his neck. And he said he did. They said he didn't explain the marks. If you have a. The problem with that is if they're small red marks and you have a two year old.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, it's pretty easy.

[James Pietragallo]

They're always. You're holding them, they're always scratching on you and grabbing you. And even when you pick them up, they grab you around the neck. You always have marks on you from that. If it's an adult fighting for their life, I expect more than blood. Yeah, yeah. Light scratches. So they said, is your marriage okay? And he said, no, it's pretty fucked up, actually. He said, I had an affair with one of my wife's best friends. That pissed her off. Good. Let me tell you, that's not a good idea. Take it from me, buddy. So that drove him to marriage counseling. He Said. But he eventually decided that their foundation was beyond repair. So that spring they decided they'd separate. Share custody of the daughters and all that kind of thing. Sharing custody. And they both hired lawyers and nitpicked over furniture and visitation schedules and all that kind. He said they slept in separate rooms. Their finances were strange, strained, so he had to put her on an allowance, one that she routinely, routinely blew through by buying things she couldn't afford, he said. He said, quote, status was an important thing to Nancy. And I indulged her too much. That's what he said, which doesn't sound great at all. Now, Nancy Cooper's friend said that Brad was so tight with money that she was selling her clothes and painting homes to buy groceries. She said the Coopers, during the spring, the Cooper's water was shut off in the home because the payment was late. Nancy couldn't get it turned back on as he'd taken her name off of all the accounts. So that's annoying. Nancy's close friends described her. I assume Jessica's involved in this. Described her, him as a self absorbed, awkward man that they barely saw. Michael Morwick said Brad was never a family man. His priorities were always first, be it training. His priorities were always first, be it training for an Ironman event, his higher education pursuits, or unexplained absences. Brad took care of himself first. So none of these people are saying, like, the guy works 65 hours a week or something. That's not. This isn't about work. This is about extracurriculars and an incredibly selfish man. Very selfish. So after Brad, because they take Brad down to identify the body officially at the medical examiner's office, they said they brought him back and he was sitting at his dining room table again. And they asked if he would consent to a search of his home. Like a thorough search at this time. And he said no. Really don't think so. He said, the police and fucking NBC News and everybody else has singled me out as a suspect already, and I'm not going to fucking help you. And I think I should talk to an attorney before I let you do anything in my fucking house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

Now they said, oh, shit. Okay. That's a new wrinkle to this Brad, by the way. Because the investigators plan to obtain warrants to search the home and vehicles, Brad called Heather Metor's husband, the woman he had an affair with, to come pick him up that day. Will you come grab me? So police followed in an undercover car. Cooper spent a short time in his home and later that night he went, I guess this guy dropped. This is fucking wild. He spent a short time with Heather and then ended up going with the husband for a while too. So July 16, this is all within four days of her going missing. July 16, there's an emergency custody hearing where a judge awards emergency custody of the two young daughters to Nancy's parents and sister. He hasn't even been charged.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

He hasn't even been charged.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

That is wild. This is mainly the father and the twin sister are the main litigants here. They're fighting to do that. A judge granted them emergency custody. Brad said, what the fuck? He said he's involved an engaged father who Nancy Cooper called super dad. That's what he said. I don't think so. I think the truth is in the middle there, chief. More than a dozen of her friends insist that he's distant, selfish and absent all the time. A the day a judge signed this transferring order giving the grandparents and aunt the fucking kids, Bradley had already arranged to meet with them at Bullwinkles, a children's arcade and restaurant, so they could visit the girls. Instead he showed up and the cops were there to tell him that you're not getting your kids. No, not. You're not getting your kids. We're taking your kids.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And we're giving them to them. They said that the old Bella lost it and they had to pull her off of her father, basically because her mom is gone.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And now you're saying, no more dad either. And while she may love her grandparents, she doesn't stay live in Canada. She doesn't see them all the time. Her father is probably a little more close now. The kids don't know anything about the legal aspects of this at all. They have a memorial and 300 people are there and this is in Edmonton, so they have a big memorial in Edmonton and you know, all that sort of thing. And they said. They said that she. They asked about the kids and they said Katie is young, so it's a little bit over her head. But Bella's starting to figure it out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She knows mom's not coming back.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, they start to get understanding of time and space when they're around five. Yeah, that's because that's why. That's when you send them to school, because they know what's going on. But two and a half, they have no idea. If mom. If you told them mom is on Mars fighting aliens, they go, oh, good, I hope she wins. Like, they have no fucking idea.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So, yeah, what weapons she takes Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

No shit. Now they want to search Brad's office at Cisco, his home, both his cars, a little more thoroughly, his computers, his phones, everything. They want to search all this shit. They're looking for financial inquiries, withdrawals or other transactions and files related to instructions, methods or means of committing the crime of homicide or of disposing a human body. They seize a number of items including. Including clothing, car seat covers and bed linens. And the police secure a warrant for his DNA, sees his computers telling a judge they need to search for this evidence they find on here. This is the big deal, okay? Through all of this, they find zero evidence of anything, really. They have a theory that possibly she was in the entryway of the home where the ducks usually are. Yeah, and he strangled her in the entryway. And that's why the ducks were gone, because they got broken in the struggle. That was the theory. So later on, the ducks are in a box, unharmed. So that didn't happen. It's interesting, but they seize his computers, police find Google Maps searches of the area where the body was found on his computer. Yeah, searches not. Not tied. Fucking things of right where your wife's body's found. Not things like Scott Peter, less than Scott Peterson, by far, they found here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Pietragallo]

This was deep inside a laptop that Brad Cooper used at work were files that, when pieced together, showed a satellite image of the remote site where Nancy's body was found. That's what they say now in the documents, they describe his uncharacteristic cleaning of the house while his wife was missing, unexplained scratches on his neck, and the discovery of Nancy's keys and cell phone in the house when people said she always kept him with her. Now you get to all of this shit pitch, Google Map and all this type of thing, and they're going, hmm, I don't know about this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So much so that they even think that he faked a call from his home phone to his cell phone to make it look like Nancy was still alive to ask him to get green juice.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay. We'll find out why in a minute, though. They say that he did this on purpose because that's a time when they knew his image would be captured on grocery store surveillance cameras. So he was setting up his alibi and his cover up here. Fascinating. So who gets involved in this? Nancy Grace and Mark Fuhrman, of course.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Of course they do.

[James Pietragallo]

Of course. The two of the biggest assholes that we have to offer as a human species. Nevermind.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Fucking Jesus. These two loudmouths so they're talking about it on tv. And Nancy Grace said, you know, this woman, Nancy Cooper was a real star. Said that she was excellent at ice sports in Canada. She said, yes. Can you imagine the envy, the jealousy that must have stirred up on his part that she was. Yeah. And that's why with intimate homicides, we look at family members often. Because it's in the context of attachment that envy, rage, and the wish to be like the other get stirred up. And she was a star. Maybe he felt he wasn't. That is a crazy, insane fucking theory.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, that's just a Nancy wishing she was a different Nancy.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. Holy shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's an athlete and I'm a fucking loudmouth asshole on tv.

[James Pietragallo]

How many NFL players would be murdered in bed by their wives then? Or. You know what I'm saying? Like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's ridiculous.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So. But everything she says is ridiculous because she's a fucking. A silly person. A not serious.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not serious woman.

[James Pietragallo]

Absolutely not a serious person. July 18, 2008. There's a press conference. Brad's lawyers hold a press conference now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Boy.

[James Pietragallo]

To confront the. What they quote as wild speculation about the case and address the notable absence at memorials and press conferences of Brad. One lawyer said, brad Cooper is a very private man. He's not accustomed to the hot glare of the media spotlight. He never dreamed that he would see his face splashed across television news shows, nor his name in headlines, especially not under these terrible circumstances. Different people grieve in different ways. Mr. Cooper wishes to mourn privately. Okay. Yes. They also said that there's no new developments. And they said had there been substantial credible evidence pointing to Brad, I assume he'd be in custody right now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Certainly. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

The police chief, though, cautioned into. Cautioned about reading too much into the court documents that have come out. They said when the details of a search warrant become public, everyone must remember the investigations are as much about ruling things out as ruling things in. And if the evidence that comes from a search warrant, not the warrant itself, that makes a difference in the case. Case just because there is a warrant. The da, in responding to the. Brad's press conference here, said that they don't see a man in mourning at all. They see what they've seen many times before in domestic homicide cases. They note that Brad had never called the police and wasn't checking for updates about the case. His reactions seem muted and dull. This guy said, I've been doing it for 25 years and I've seen, unfortunately A lot of middle to upper class husbands kill their wives. And it's classic the way they act, right? That's it, yeah. He said he knew in domestic homicides there was nearly always a divorce pending, sometimes a girlfriend. The husband was usually a man who couldn't strike, who could strike people as a bit strange, who seemed to have a secret side others didn't often see. This is very generalization here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure is. And they really don't like him at all.

[James Pietragallo]

No. He goes on to say, and they often tend to be volatile and in public in their criticism of the spouses. That part of this is sort of classic psychological domestic abuse, you know, because you get to talk shit about the person and they can't say anything back. So Nancy Cooper's friends are asked to turn over documents that they have about their troubled marriage. Anything that. Text messages, letters.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Show me all their dirt.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep. So according to the records, attorneys for Bradley Cooper have ordered his wife's friends to turn these over. They subpoenaed them. Diaries, appointment books, phone records, pictures, anything that might prove backup. Statements made in affidavits filing after the death. Friends claim that Cooper was emotionally unstable and faithful and had been controlling and demeaning. But more than a dozen of her friends challenged the subpoena, ordering them to turn over the information. So Brad's friend, the tennis guy the guy was supposed to play tennis with, said he was pressured by others to file affidavits pointing the finger at Brad for the murder. He also said that Nancy Cooper had a tendency to exaggerate problems in her marriage.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay, well, he said, laying in a gully, man.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, well, they're saying, though he didn't, you know, that doesn't mean he did it. So he. This guy says one example of the exaggeration is the story of how Nancy was trapped because she did not have a car. He said Nancy was only without a car for a short period of time. Nancy told me it was her own decision for wait to wait for the dealer to find the specific preferred pre owned model and year BMW X5 that she wanted. That's why she didn't have a car, because she was waiting specific X5 for a specific $70,000 car.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's why M3. Jesus Christ.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, friends say that police. Another friend says police pressured him here. That's Mike Hillert, same guy. He says the police tried to coerce him into admitting that he repeatedly called Nancy Cooper's cell phone to help her husband explain his whereabouts. Hiller said that police began questioning him with a conversation about the morning of the disappearance. But the mood and tone of the conversation quickly changed when a big, nice detective entered the room and put him in the hot seat by accusing him of using Nancy Cooper cell phone. Basically what they're saying is he called using the cell phone. Yes. To set it up. A detective told Hiller that a witness saw him using her cell phone. Oh, and Hillary said, I don't know where they were getting that. I didn't use her cell phone, I didn't help Brad and I didn't hurt anybody. Okay. I think they believed me that I was being truthful. It contradicted everything that I had been talking about up to that point. I was like, I didn't understand it. He said he was shaken up after this incident and didn't understand what the fuck the cops were doing. He said police told him they had to investigate Bradley Cooper because if they arrested someone else for the slaying without investigating her husband, a defense attorney would accused them of doing poor police work. Obviously, Hiller said they've. The cops have interviewed him three times, most recently about a few weeks after the murder. He said that he accused the police of doing good cop bad cop tactics while trying to coerce me to admit that I made calls on Nancy's cell phone to help Brad establish an alibi. He said they're doing a good job with the information they have. Personally, I wish they could put everyone who was in Carrie that day under that kind of pressure. If it gets to the bottom of this, so I'll deal with it because I mean, this is what you have to do.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They pressured me. I didn't have anything to do with it, so I don't care. But somebody that did it, maybe they'd, maybe they'd crack.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, exactly. Hiller said he and his wife were there with the Coopers at the barbecue. And he said, I specifically asked Nancy Friday night if Brad could play tennis with me at 9:30 the next day. And Nancy told me, yeah, that's fine. Hiller said that Brad called him about 9:15am and said Nancy had not yet returned from her jog. And then Bradley called him three more times that morning. Finally at 10:04 they rescheduled the tennis match, obviously. So also Kerry, police here had they. This is the biggest fuck up of all, okay? They get Nancy's phone.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, they rolled around in their bed and they're going to fuck up harder than that.

[James Pietragallo]

They way harder than that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

They had Nancy's phone, okay. They put it in a drawer for two weeks, then a detective calls AT&T to get a tech person to tell him how to download all the data off of it. Okay. This cop hears this, doesn't do it as he's on the phone, does it later at another time, and erases the entire phone. He erased every bit of information off the fucking phone. They have none of her social media.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And then confirmed it.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep. None of her social media, none of her texts, none of her email, none of all of the shit that would say exactly if she was talking to someone else, if anyone else could have been there. All of this. Gone. Poof. Gone. Fuck.

[Jimmy Wisman]

How stupid that guy feels.

[James Pietragallo]

He's got to feel like a complete idiot. But later on, I don't think he does feel too stupid.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I had to go buy a phone recently. And you can do it at home. Like, they send you the phone and you can switch it up. I took it right the fuck to the storm. Like, I'm not doing this.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a pain in the ass. They looked at you like you were 75 when you walked in there. Here we go. Another person can't figure out how to start their phone.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Here's the guy. They can't transfer information.

[James Pietragallo]

Here he comes.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I will delete everything I own. You do it. I will ruin my next booked flights if you don't do this.

[James Pietragallo]

The theory is they think that either Brad might have come home early from the party, got the kids secured in the room, then when Nancy went to sleep, he grabbed her from behind and choked her out, dumped her body at the spot already chosen, cleaned the house, washed the clothes, used his telephone skills to fake a phone call to make it appear as if she was still alive. Yeah, that's a lot. They theorized that Brad strangled Nancy when he returned home from the party after midnight. That he removed her dress, dressed her only in a sports bra to make it appear as though she was assaulted while driving, then transported her body to Fielding Drive. They speculated that since Brad was a voiceover IP expert, he must have automated a phone call to make it appear as if Nancy called while he was on his way to the store. Okay, that is crazy. All right? Everything would have had to work out perfect for that shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure would. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

I mean, there's a lot of things here. The murder plan.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You have two kids to deal with while.

[James Pietragallo]

And they're going to be alive and awake and all that. The murder plan would have consisted of Brad pulling his car into the garage in the middle of the night to place the body in the trunk, hoping it wouldn't leave A trace of evidence or wake the neighbors or his daughters with any of this noise. Also include leaving his daughter's home alone three times. First to get rid of the body, then two more times with the trips to the store and set up an alibi. There would also be the risk that they would wake up, become terrified of being alone, and more risk that they would possibly inform someone that they were alone, which would fuck up his entire thing as well. There's a lot of risks to be taken here. Not to mention, you know, tracking dirt from the dump location. He could get pulled over. He could get an ax. There's a lot of different things here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Absolutely.

[James Pietragallo]

So October 2, 2008, there's a custody deposition.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Again, no one's been arrested.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

So the.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's no reason he shouldn't be able to have his kids.

[James Pietragallo]

Nope. So the prosecutor said that what he saw, exactly what he expected from Brad Cooper, a man still angry at his wife and taking the opportunity to further demean her. Brad spoke repeatedly about how she spent too much money, drank too much, and was never happy with anything he did. The prosecutor said, she's the mother of your kids. You can't. You say you didn't do this? Well, how about shedding a few tears and saying what a great woman she was and how much everybody's going to miss her? Well, you're in the middle of a divorce, so you don't feel that way about her. Yeah. To me, if he said that, that would seem disingenuous because you'd be going, you were divorcing her. You don't think that about her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You don't love her at all.

[James Pietragallo]

You've been fighting like crazy. And this guy says, but they can't do that because they've never been positive toward them, even when they were alive. That could be true, too. That. That's the thing. It could go either way here. So they said during this, the deposition, Brad Cooper swore he'd never been to the spot where Nancy's body was found and didn't know anything about it except when he'd seen it on the news. That contradicted the evidence of the FBI investigators, who had forensic computer evidence that he said that said he did a Google map search of the area, zooming in on the exact spot where her body was found. The prosecutor said that was like kind of enough is enough. Let's charge him. So the judge awards custody of the kids to the Nancy's family, and on October 22, 2008, they charge him with first degree murder. And they said this has never been a case of a jogger randomly attacked. It was a case of domestic abuse of the worst kind. So, yeah, it's a lot. Now immediately, there is a free Brad Cooper movement.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yeah. There's a whole blog going on out there of justiceforbradcooper.WordPress.com look at that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They love blogs.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, this is a 100% Scott Peterson sister in law situation going on here. So. Oh, yeah, people are weighing in on the forums and there's. Because now it's the Internet. So I mean, it's. People are, you know, talking about what they think they are. It's fucking crazy. There's an episode of Dateline about the murder. A book comes out called Love Lies, A True Story of Marriage and the Murder and Murder in the Suburbs. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a. But a biologist whose husband worked at Cisco was so convinced of his innocence, Brad's innocence, she started a free Brad Cooper website and blog in his defense and later will write a book. Yes. This is crazy. At one point, there were T shirts being sold with pictures of other suspects in the murder, including Nancy's family.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. Nancy's family and friends tried to ignore the shit. Nancy's younger sister Jill went on vacation in Hawaii when she saw a young man wearing a free Brad shirt. She approached him. He told her that he got it at a thrift store and he doesn't know what the fuck it even is. I just needed a shirt.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Funny.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, it was in good shape. And it's 50 cents. I don't know what to tell you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It hides my nipples.

[James Pietragallo]

So, yes, now, 2010, there's a scandal. An independent audit of the North Carolina SBI revealed that a crime lab, analysts, or many of them, were routinely withholding more sensitive blood tests that were exculpatory to defendants. There were over 200 reported cases of this. The Cooper investigation happened in 2008, which is right in the middle of when this was all going on. Which we've had that happen in other states, too. In New York, there was a guy in Virginia. I want to say 2011, in March is the trial. Okay, here we go. Ten women and two men on the jury. That doesn't bode well. Now, they tried to get it moved somewhere else, but they didn't. It didn't work. This trial lasts two months, 36 days of testimony.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yikes.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow, that is amazing. The prosecutor said in his opening, you'll be convinced that Nancy Rentz Cooper never went for a run on July 12, 2008, and that Bradley Graham Cooper killed his wife and is guilty of first degree murder. He said that there is no physical evidence, blood, hair, fingerprints, witnesses, anything. The one piece of evidence they have is Google Map search.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And the search and the zoom in.

[James Pietragallo]

Then the zoom in of that same. The same one piece of evidence. That's the only piece of evidence they have.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Literally, that's enough.

[James Pietragallo]

Nothing else, which is tough if you're a prosecutor to put that. Now, the defense said this is his, their lawyer. The husband must have done it because we don't have another suspect. They had a theory and their theory was that it was Brad Cooper. That's it. That's why he's sitting here. They got nothing else. They also said the defense team contends the medical examiner's report will show her stomach was empty, but there were traces of caffeine in her body. They say that shows that the likelihood that she woke up and had some coffee in the morning before her run, which is exactly what he said. She got up and made coffee. So they talk about the extra marital affair. And they also said, well, she had an affair too. And years after that she had an affair with a guy from Florida. Then she had another affair in 2005 that we'll talk about here. Defense attorneys questioned basically everything. They question all the neighbors. Nancy Cooper told her sister that the husband across the street, Craig Duncan, her friend's husband, made advances toward her one night and it disturbed her and made her uncomfortable. Her sister said she was creeped out. So the defense is saying she literally rebuffed this guy's fucking sexual advances. And they live across the street. What if she told this guy's wife maybe he had motive to kill her? Okay, that's what they're saying. So the whole fucking trial basically is. And also in the opening statement, they just sked the police for erasing Nancy's phone data.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's fun.

[James Pietragallo]

Fuck they talk about. This whole thing is just a big juicy. It's just affairs and fights and behind closed doors and it's real fucking juicy here. They said you will hear from a click in and around Carrie. The defense attorney said they are pretty, they are popular, they are affluent, they are highly successful. And they're all going to say that they hate Brad. They said, also, you're going to hear a lot about money, whether it was Brad's $135, $135,000 salary, his wife's 24 grand American Express credit card debt, or shit that compounds with interest too Holy. Or the Amex. You don't want to fuck with Amex. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ruin your fucking life.

[James Pietragallo]

They will destroy you. Your house will be an AMEX center anytime, sometime soon.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So now, affairs. Here we go. At one point, the jurors here that Bradley Cooper said he'd had sex with Heather Metor in the master bedroom, like we talked about. In another, they heard of Rand, Nancy's rendezvous with a man she brought home from a Halloween party who washed the makeup from his costume before they ended up naked on a couch together.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Nice.

[James Pietragallo]

John Pearson is his name. He told the jury he was too drunk to remember the extent of their involvement.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, you dummy.

[James Pietragallo]

Blackout drunk. So, here we go. They find out that their second child was born 8 months and 24 days after they were together.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, the youngest.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And they never did a paternity test to find out, too. Eight months and 24 days is after Halloween. Oh, that's brutal, man. So he said that he and Nancy discussed the timing of the pregnancy, and she told him he's not the father. Well, of course, it'd be a lot easier to just say, yeah, you're not the father. Don't worry about it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Don't worry. I'm married. He. I'll convince him.

[James Pietragallo]

He said, we both agreed that we didn't remember the intercourse, so it did not. Okay. That's all right. Blackout drunk, naked people never fuck. Right?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that a rule? I guess that's what you gotta do.

[James Pietragallo]

Heather Mitor also comes up on the stand and said that Brad Cooper had an affair with him or with her and everything like that. And everything. But Cooper admitted to having an affair with her, and she was also the subject of an alienation of affection lawsuit. Brought by Pearson's ex wife, apparently, yeah. Pearson's ex wife was suing him and included Nancy in it because they fucked, so. Wow. He said he recalled they were both naked on the couch, but didn't remember much more. He said he had limited contact with Nancy after the incident and that they didn't speak much. But the defense produced phone records showing more than 10 phone calls made between Pearson and Nancy between early May and the middle of June 2008, which is when she was killed. And the phone records show that a series of phone calls between the two also happened in May 2007.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He talks to her all the time.

[James Pietragallo]

Pearson said the phone calls in 2008 were of limited substance. He said the ones in 2007 came after Nancy confirmed that Brad had the affair with Heather Mitor. He also said that besides the 2008 meeting and bumping into her at a grocery store in June, he didn't. Besides the 10 times we talked. And the one time I saw her in person, the month before she was killed, I hadn't seen her at all. But he also says he has an alibi for the night he was murdered. Do you know where he was or the night. The night she was murdered, you know where he was?

[Jimmy Wisman]

In bed with his wife at his.

[James Pietragallo]

Apartment with Heather Metor. Oh my Heather. God damn, woman.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Good for you, Heather.

[James Pietragallo]

Heather's getting it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Who doesn't she sleep with in this town? My mother.

[James Pietragallo]

So then they bring in a colleague of Brad's at Cisco, talked about a phone account set up in Paris through that account. According to testimony, Brad could, if he wanted to route calls to and through Paris to other phones. So. Cause they alleged that he was having different shit routing. So yeah, they say that they think that he called a Cisco voicemail system in Ireland and sent a three second message to his office phone and Research Triangle Park. A colleague of Cooper's at Cisco spent the time on the witness stand talking about how Internet phone systems in a murder trial, you know, how this all happens. They said that Brad Cooper within 16 minutes of on Saturday morning when his wife was reported missing, Brad Cooper made four checks of his voicemail on two phones, which would make sense to see if she called and left a voicemail. Sure, sure. But I mean, it also could be bad. It could go either way. They said they received the voicemail message that Cooper forwarded through a Cisco system in Galway, Ireland to his Research Triangle park office. That was a message that Cooper had not received. It said, Test 1, Test 2, 3.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why is he doing that though?

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know. He told who knows, for work. Who the fuck knows what they do over there. He told police that he made two trips to a Harris Teeter that morning before she left. A run and all that. So that's what they're doing here. So prosecutors say with his professional expertise in technology he has, he's capable of making a fake phone call from his home to his cell phone that morning to make it look like his wife was alive. Okay, that's it now. Quick trial break. By the way, the neighbors who were forced to reveal all sorts of trysts and affair and affairs during this trial are not happy. The trial revealed secrets that are now known to everybody around there. One Carrie woman, Angie Barfield. Watch out. Watched. Hours of testimony that unwound the lives of the Most sociable people in her neighborhood, she said, I would never dream up half the things they got themselves into. She only lives a few hundred yards away from the Cooper's home. She said she'd seen them and their friends touring the neighborhood with wine glasses in hand the year before Nancy Cooper died. She moved in before it exploded in price. She's like these fucking yuppies. And she said we dress the same, we drive the same cars. So like I know these people. I feel like. So she said. But she realized she didn't know her neighbors when she heard everything from the trial.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They're doing terrible things like this. Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, she said, I can sit and watch what you did. Look inside your homes to see that you can have that much of your life on parade is sobering. Also, they talk about no signs of sexual assault. The defense tries to say that the degree. This is July in North Carolina and that is probably. It could be too degraded to identify sperm in the same way that, you know, it happened otherwise. Nancy's friend Teresa says that Nancy told her she slept in jeans with in her pocket. They brought him her on another runner spent several minutes on the stand talking about how they put on a sports bra. Literally. She explained that the sports bras often bunch up under the arms when women. Women first put them on. But it would be uncomfortable to go out for a run without pulling the sides down. Yeah. If you watch one put on a sports bra, they put their hands in and pull it down. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot here. Also the Google map shit they bring in that and they. The defense team raised questions about the validity. The validity of the timestamps on the laptop files. They're saying those searches came after the body was found. Oh, that's what they're trying to say.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

So he was looking for where.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, where they say they found her. Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

And the judge ruled against the defense's attempt to classify two witnesses as forensic experts to raise questions about the computer evidence. And they weren't allowed to do anything with evidence. Yes. A psychiatrist, a psychologist testifying for him said he was behaving normally under the circumstances. They several strangers who swore they saw Nancy the morning he said she was jogging. The verdict comes in here. Now what do you do? The circumstantial, the just kind of inference evidence is huge.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

He seems real guilty.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Does he?

[James Pietragallo]

But the. Oh well, I mean just the fact that, you know, she wants money from him and all that kind of.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's got a certain alibi evidence.

[James Pietragallo]

I mean wise. Yeah. Motive Wise is huge. But evidence wise, all they have is Google Maps. They did not find one drop of a sign of a struggle in that house. Nothing. They find him guilty of first degree murder.

[Jimmy Wisman]

First.

[James Pietragallo]

First, which, if you think Scott Peterson. They didn't have enough evidence to convict him. They had a hundred times more evidence to convict him than they had. They had a hair. They had DNA. They had him searching tidal pools a month before we bought a fucking boat, for Christ's sake.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's missing four anchors. And her body's missing four limbs.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Telling his girlfriend that he's like in Paris for New Year. Jesus. So the parents are all decent Canadians, by the way. Nancy's parents walked across the courtroom to shake hands with his parents and said, I'm sorry for your loss.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You're losing a kid, too.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And they all hugged and fucking because they're Canadians and they're nice people. If this was just Americans, they would have been beating each other up. They'd have to separate them with fucking bailiffs, for Christ's sake. So the jurors get thanked for their shit here. And the judge says, I have reason to believe the issue will be the subject of a television documentary and a book. So sentencing comes in. Okay, you, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison for Brad.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

All right. The district attorney said, I think the jury has spoken. The only thing that was dishonest about this was the defendant's defense. The jury was not swayed by those shenanigans.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Shenanigans?

[James Pietragallo]

Shenanigans he called shenanigans. The defense attorney said, we're disappointed in the jury's verdict. We believe the case for Brad's innocence was strong. We felt that the jury had been permitted to hear the testimony of our computer experts. The verdict would have been much different. And they say, but looks like we have a lot of shit to appeal on, basically. And Nancy's twin said she hopes to hear from Brad someday.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

She said that? Yep. She said that was the safe guy, the guy that wouldn't cheat on her, the guy that wouldn't hurt her. And he says that. She says, I want him to talk to me because I want to know why.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, I mean, I don't.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I mean, I don't.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't think he's gonna tell you.

[James Pietragallo]

The town manager said, with today's verdict, and despite the very public and hurtful allegations to the contrary, it's clear that they are exemplary and Carrie is served by the best, meaning the police force. You erased a murder victim's cell Phone data.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You're not the best ever.

[James Pietragallo]

You're definitely not the best. We know that. You might not be corrupt or awful, but you're certainly not the best.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You're inept.

[James Pietragallo]

You're inept at best. They work tirelessly, professionally and with unimpeachable integrity against their own current that they created. Now he appeals. A three judge appellate panel issued a unanimous ruling. State Attorney General Roy Cooper, no relation to Brad, sought review of the decision by the state's highest court. Brad's Cooper, Brad's attorney, in return asked the state Attorney general's appeal for review be dismissed. That's because the evidence in the case was largely circumstantial. Jurors said afterwards the prosecutors won with the computer evidence that the defense never got a chance to try to argue. The defense argued that the police investigation was completely inept. And who's to say? Why would their computer shit be any better than the rest of them?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right?

[James Pietragallo]

They questioned the timestamps of the files. The judge ruled against us bringing in our own experts. The panel of judges here says the appeals court panel added whether the error was constitutional or not. Failure to let Brad Cooper use his experts at trial was a key error that warrants a new trial.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

So they said there's reasonable possibility that had the error in question not been committed, a different result would have been reached at trial. Which is exactly what this appeal is for. So he's granted a new trial. Not so fast. He takes a plea.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Pietragallo]

He takes a plea to second degree murder.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

As part of the plea, they ask him, did you do all this? And he just has to say yes, but he doesn't have to describe anything.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

Now, during this plea here, this is, you know, obviously a big difference. They said, did you in fact kill Nancy Cooper and dump her body on Fielding Drive? He said yes. That didn't elaborate on anything else. No apologies. Part of this plea bargain was he gives up the rights to his children who are being raised in British Columbia.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He did it.

[James Pietragallo]

He did. But. Well, the judge says he found it repulsive that he, Brad, would bargain away his rights as a parent to spend less time behind bars. But the in laws agreed to the agreement. So you, sir, may fuck off. 12 to 15 years in prison, which is nothing like life. No, he has to spend 12 years in prison, but he'll get credit for 2156 days. Seven years served already, which is already a shitload more than five years. He could be released seven years from then. And the rent says that his granddaughters would Be teenagers by them then and they could decide for themselves if they want to have a relationship with their father.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the fuck?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. So Gary Rent said when we started this process years ago, one of the first things I said was that I wish the person who was responsible for this crime would come forward and acknowledge their guilt and own up to their behavior. That's happened today. Meaning when he said yes, when he fled. Meanwhile on the Internet everything went on. People are it's conspiracies and he took the plea just for the shorter sentence. Justice for Brad is there. The justice for Brad blog Lynn Blanchard wrote writes extremely lengthy posts. I have another 10 pages of her shit that we don't have time to read at all. But she talks about all this shit have you know, he's. It's fucking crazy. By the way, Jill, the sister started a program in Edmonton for abused women. A domestic abuse program.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He had to do it, right?

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know who the fuck else could have done it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But you don't. You don't take that plea if you didn't do it.

[James Pietragallo]

Well you do because it's that or life. It's that or you're going to go back to trial with the same evidence and they can convict you. If my attorney's telling me, listen, you did five, you're going to get out in seven if you just shut the fuck up and say yes. Or you might be going for life without. Yeah, you want seven more and then just get be done and you can go see your kids or what. So I mean whether you did it or not, it makes sense honestly, like a lot of people that didn't do it, they'll take a plea because they think they're going to get convicted and.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know, anyway, so what's the difference?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, 20, 20. Brad is released from prison.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Already out.

[James Pietragallo]

He's out, baby. Yep, he's out. But the US authorities said the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement would take him into custody immediately upon release and begin the process of deporting him to Canada. Isn't not allowed to contact his daughters who were 16 and 14 at the time. And this is nice too. The family. This is the Alice Stubbs who Nancy had contacted who's now speaking for the family. She said the family doesn't want revenge. They've never wanted revenge. The only thing they've wanted was to protect Katie and Bella and they've done that. The silver lining I think is that when he pleaded guilty to second degree murder and admitted that he killed her, those children were protected and from my standpoint, justice was done in family court.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

Now the book is called Framed An Examination of the Nancy Cooper Murder Case by Lynn Blanchard. Yeah, that's what it is. And she explains in great fucking detail about shoes. There's a lot of shoe discrepancy. The cop saying her shoes was gone. There's missing shoes, but they're not actually missing. They're there a lot of shit about shoes. The bleach thing they talk about and the computer thing. There is pages and pages and pages of how they fuck, of why they believe they fucked up the computer evidence based on their experts. Based on the defense experts telling of it. So it is a lot. Basically, I think he fucking did it. And did it in a way where he left no fucking evidence and did a very good job of doing it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, sounds like it. Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what he did. He had a very good dismount. But I think he did it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You had to, because there's no other suspect. The only person mad at her is you.

[James Pietragallo]

I mean, it could have been a random person picking her up off the street. And because she was found, you know, with just a fucking sports bra pulled up, it's. I mean, I don't know. Most people wouldn't want their. Even if they're divorcing, they wouldn't want their wife, like, exposed like that to every. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know. I. I mean, I'm. I'm 75% sure that he did it. In my own brain. Yeah, 75, 80% sure. But I don't think there's any evidence.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't take a plea unless I did it, to be honest, especially if it comes to my kids. Man, I'm screaming.

[James Pietragallo]

I get it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm screaming forever. I get.

[James Pietragallo]

There's a lot of people that are. That what you think about that? If you're. If you're 35 years old and they go, would you like to get out when you're 42 or never? Yeah, that sounds like. And you've already done five.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's.

[James Pietragallo]

I'd take that deal whether I did it or not, honestly. Because if you didn't do it, you sat through a whole trial where you got convicted of something you didn't do.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right? Right.

[James Pietragallo]

So you are gotta be leery of a trial system because, you know, you didn't do it the first time and they still convicted you. So. So I'm taking the deal personally, just because the world sucks, but either way, I think he did it anyway. There you go, that is Cary, North Carolina. It's a crazy case. You see why we went to a little bit bigger town. But it's very small towny. I mean there's nothing city about that shit. It's all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

That's jogging around.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The woman jogged around. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a small town as it gets. So if you like that, tell the world about it. Get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars. It means the world to us. So please do that. Also head over to shut up and give me murder.com tickets for live shows. If you're listening early Austin. If you're not listening early Boston and Tarrytown, New York. Few tickets left for those. Get your tickets for those right now. Also follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram at Small Town Pod on Facebook. You can also get Patreon, we highly recommend should also listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports and your stupid opinions. Those are great, but Definitely get Patreon. Patreon.com Crime and Sports is where you're going to get all the bonus material. Anybody over $5 a month or over five, over $5 a month or above. I was just going to say you get everything. There's back catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes. You've never heard new ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder. This week, what we're going to cover for Crime and Sports, one of the worst people who's ever been involved in baseball, Marge shot. She owned the Reds and was just a terrible, nightmare, awful person. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to switch up what we were going to do and we're going to talk about the Sarah Boone murder trial which has been completed and I watched every fucking minute of it. So I have to talk about it because she testified. Dude, it was crazy. I can't wait. She's a face.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And put it on the stand.

[James Pietragallo]

She went down and demonstrated how she zipped the suitcase. That is like a murderer taking a fucking knife in their hand and demonstrating how they stabbed and then going, I didn't kill him though.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not me.

[James Pietragallo]

Crazy. So we'll talk about that. That is patreon.com crime and sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right fucking now, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people in the world who would never ever put us in a suitcase, dump us nude in a golf course, or any of the above. Hit me with them right now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This week's executive producer Andy Fritsch and his wife. They're celebrating their 30th anniversary. Happy anniversary.

[James Pietragallo]

Congrats.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Other executive producer this weekend to go, Clark. Thank you, Indigo. She is fantastic. She has a sister that listens also. She lives in Arizona somewheres. They're great, guys. Thank you so much, Indigo. You're terrific. Other producers this week, Peyton Meadows, Gary Howard, Janice Hill, GA lip tax and Tenno Kennels in Canada. Carly Plines, I think. Leslie Maxwell. Maxwell. Who says it like that? Annie. All right.

[James Pietragallo]

Patricia Man.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Patricia Lawhorn. May Corwin. Kiara with no last name. Jen with no last name. Brie Rosen. Whiskey. Whiskey Chick. Katie Taylor. Patty with no last name. Babs Michelle. Rich Gillum. JBM314. Timothy Knight. Linda Ann. Brian Potter. Jen with no last name. Kelsey Rowan. Amanda McPherson. Angela Gilbert. Dr. Stephanie Drescher. Yep, that is correct. I want to get that name correct because she spent many years in school for that. Brent Lieb.

[James Pietragallo]

The doctor part, not the dresser part.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, that's true. Adam9750. That is part of an email address because they put Chinese letters in there that I'll never be able to pronounce. Wendy Stanton. I said that. Jenny. Jenny Mullen. Kurt Fowler. Devin with no last name. Connor Robinson. Lacey with no last name. Grace. Gertrude.

[James Pietragallo]

Not characters.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why would they do that? Are they. Are they letters?

[James Pietragallo]

Characters?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Whatever. They are.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. That's what I love. Letters. Chinese letters. What is that, a Chinese H? I don't know what that is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

These are all English characters, right? Nicholas Tilly. That's a whole bunch of Jacob Heater. I said that. Morgan. Yes. I don't think that's right. I think I just. I think. I think they just autocorrect.

[James Pietragallo]

Morgan. No, I think it auto corrected her name.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm sorry.

[James Pietragallo]

Morgan Maybe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Susan G. Katie Hayes. Michelle Henriks. Miro. Kelsey Natovich. Laura O'Malley. Nicholas Do. Jared Wilson. Morgan VB Randy Rogue. Rochelle Trendley. I believe. Jamie G. Nathan Springer. Michelle Collison. Collison Rowan. 8436. Angela Peterson. Zach Rizal. Man. Madeline Gadare. Sonia Alexander Lacey Parker. Gilbert Quintero. Jacob Scions. Olivia. Olivia Alcorta. Storybook Farm. Colette or Mandy. Sarah Sari. Carly Miller. Kennedy Johnson, Travis To Trot llc. Tiffany Organdi. Organ D. Little. Little organ. Big D. William A little organ.

[James Pietragallo]

Big D. That was so not on purpose. And you did not even notice you said that, which is hilarious.

[Jimmy Wisman]

William Quimby. Andrea Nunley. Erica J. Reimers. Ghost Akuma Ex Hope Luther, Misty Belcher. John Alstott Taylor with no last name. Alicia Summers. Katie Kapler. Deep Checo. Zach Leopold. Wade Fleischacker. Emily Garish. Randy Glissman. Lindy Lindsay. Lindsay Behan. Oh, like the Sheriff of Tombstone. Ashley Brady. Noah. Noah Jackson. Ash. Alicia DiBatista. Was he sheriff? He was sheriff, wasn't he? And President of the anti Chinese Party.

[James Pietragallo]

The anti Chinese League. Nonpartisan, not partisan, anti Chinese League.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We all hate him. Ashley Brady, Noah Jackson. Alicia D. Baptiste.

[James Pietragallo]

Not us. People in Touchdown.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They all hate them because they're non partisan. Pasha Stinson. Blake with no last name. Matt Locke. Is that right? Matt Locke. Your parents named you Matt? When Matlock exists. That's crazy. Carrie with no last name. Michelle Hubbard. Kushal. Kaista Kush. He's terrific. He's a big great guy.

[James Pietragallo]

Him and his dad.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I love them both. Amanda Coaster. Maybe Keister. Brandy Wilson. Liam Parker. Tevin Johnson. Marina Linland Lindland. Sherry Combs. Declan Swans. Mark Jones. I don't know what that is.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Samantha Redmond.

[James Pietragallo]

Elvis Costello's real name.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Possibly. It's. Is that Declan?

[James Pietragallo]

I think Declan is his real. I think Declan's is. I don't know his last name. I thought that was his real first name.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hunter Pogue. Allison Rode. Rodenberg. Lynn Weir. Robin Grenz At a. At a Mead. Erica Labor Lab. What? Labarier?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, don't look at me.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hollywood. No last name. Patricia Trout. Man. Daniel Toner Ryan with no last name. Isaac Allen Lee Buckner. Carolyn Doton. Doton. Maybe Kira Schwartz. Kevin McCarthy. Wow. Jimmy with no last name. Benjamin with no last name. Derp. Derp. Cali Mertens. Allison Leger. Junior Okuna. Megan Mast. Jay Hutchins. Terrific. Holly? Nope, that's Molly. Molly Miller. Leslie Camargo. Logan Pawal. Pawaski Powiski. Lena.

[James Pietragallo]

Polish about something Polish. I've been watching something Polish. That's Night Shift.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I've been watching a lot of Family Guy and he is just God damn if that show is not one of the best things that's ever been created. It is so good. And I'd sit and write all this shit and watch the show at the same time. Not really watching, just writing. And then I hear something and I just have to stop for a while because it's just.

[James Pietragallo]

Because it's ridiculous.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So good. Lena Patricia Ryan.

[James Pietragallo]

Quick.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Tracy Atkin. Adolph. What? Oliver Tit? I hope not. Lauren.

[James Pietragallo]

Oliver Tit. Where are you?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Adolf? Oh, I ate off Oliver tit. All right. Oh, you're a real for that one. Wow, really something. I'm not proud of you.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no. You shouldn't be proud either sir or ma'am. We don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a. It's a man, you know, that's a sir.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Obviously that's not.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's a real dick.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Lauren with no last name Isabo Blue Heather Hashore, Hayden Young Jenny with no last name Lori with no last name B Doe Daryl Rochelle, Mary Morgan, Holly Heldreth, Rosie Parkour Austin Hurley Tony Yates Colleen Shirley, Michelle Suwala, becca Otto Black Ice 23 Eric Christopher Barker, Daisy Machado, Dan M. Milana Kobik, Evelyn Lancoin. I think Evelyn. I don't know. Joanne Carlin, Jenny Grubba, Austin August. August B Stacy Roy, Rhett Hone, Dulce Hall, Olivia Rodriguez. Nope, that's Olivia Gonzalez.

[James Pietragallo]

What? What?

[Jimmy Wisman]

My daughter and her music. Amanda Davis, Karen with no last name Stephanie Roning, Ryan Walls, Morgan Little sky, sgb, Austin Green and every one of our patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you.

[James Pietragallo]

Thank you everybody so much for all that you do for us. Honestly, you're fucking superstars and we can't do the shit without you. So thank you for what you do for us and thank you for keeping continuing to do that. Tell your friends, keep hanging out. You want to follow us on social media, head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. There's a dropdown menu. You can find us all on there and find everything you can need and keep coming back when you're done with that. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey it was 1983. Power suits and perms were all the rage. Nightclubs pulsed with energy. And from bedrooms to boardrooms, cocaine was the drug of choice. One woman was raking in cash to keep that supply supply chain moving. Her name was Laney Jacobs. But Laney had her sights set higher. She dreamed of becoming a Hollywood movie producer. That's how it starts. Before it ends, someone will be shot dead. From Wondery and the team behind the hit series Hollywood and Crime comes a gripping tale of ambition, betrayal and the the dark side of movie making. Follow Hollywood and crime the Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen everywhere on December 2nd. Or you can binge all episodes early and ad free on wondery plus starting November 11th.