A Strangely Murderous Grudge - Fayette, Maine

Summary

Podcast Summary: Small Town Murder – “A Strangely Murderous Grudge” – Fayette, Maine
Released May 1, 2026 | Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the brutal 1983 murder of Judith Flagg in the tiny, idyllic town of Fayette, Maine. James and Jimmie combine thorough research, true crime storytelling, and their signature comedic banter to unravel how a town steeped in small-town trust and quiet routine was shattered by a senseless crime and a decades-long cold case. The hosts explore the investigation’s missteps, community aftermath, and how forensic science finally brought justice—mixing tragedy with unexpected humor while honoring the victim’s story.

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About Fayette, Maine

[04:46–10:42]

• Town Profile: Southern Maine, population ~1,274, near Augusta. Described as a classic “Stephen King” setting with lakes, woods, and a strong sense of quiet.
• Economics/History: Median income below average, housing pricey for the region (~$300K). Originally named after the Marquis de Lafayette (“Fuck England!” – James, [06:48]).
• Lifestyle: Not much to do; main things are “Fayette Heritage Days,” children’s deer watching, elder storytelling, kayaking, and fishing. Minimal town center, so groceries are 15 minutes away.
• Hosts’ Take: “You just described living in Maine.” – James [09:02]. Town reviewed as “quiet… pretty quiet here” with one three-star review.

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The Murder of Judith Flagg

[10:42–23:46]

Discovery

• On January 6, 1983, Ted Flagg returns home from a double shift at the local paper mill around 11pm.
• Finds 23-year-old wife Judith dead with their 13-month-old son Chad “curled up” and covered in blood but unharmed ([14:48]).
• Judith visibly stabbed and clutching the phone; baby asleep on her chest.
• Ted panics, calls family first—not police—leading to 50+ people (family, neighbors) contaminating the scene before law enforcement arrives ([24:41]).

“You knock on the door and you hear a shotgun rack—for a while anyway.” – James, describing how the murder shattered local trust [11:03]

Initial Police Investigation

• Time of death: approx. 11am, 12 hours before discovery ([16:41]).
• Judith stabbed multiple times in chest and back, defensive wounds, evidence of sexual assault.
• Husband Ted immediately cleared (airtight alibi: double shift at mill, confirmed by records/co-workers).
• Footprints found to/from kitchen door in the snow—casts made.
• Blood and evidence also in the baby’s room; crime scene handled unusually well for a small town in 1983, but later contamination raised serious issues ([24:41]).

“There were bloody fingerprints all over the house. We had to fingerprint everybody who responded that night.” – James, [40:41].

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The Investigation Unfolds

[23:46–54:13]

Judith’s Life & Timeline

• Judith, born and raised locally. Athletic, friendly, married high school sweetheart Ted; son Chad born soon after.
• Last known contacts:
  • 10:30am: Phone with sister—mentions odd call from “old friend of Ted’s” who wants to surprise him, asks if Ted’ll be home late, then shows up at door ([25:21]).
  • 10:45am: Phone with brother (mechanic)—says stranger needs help with car, but ultimately declines assistance.
  • Noon: Mail carrier sees maroon car with tan top, clean-shaven, young male driver—swerving on snowy road ([32:42]).
  • 2–3pm: Brother-in-law stops by to fix truck starter; Judith doesn’t emerge ([33:54]).

Early Suspects & Failures

• Community terrified; women stop being stay-at-home moms, get jobs to avoid being home alone ([38:47]).
• State police take over from local PD.
• Investigation hampered by rumors, contaminated evidence, overwhelming foot traffic at the crime scene.

Main Suspect Emerges: Thomas H. Mitchell Jr.

• Connection:
  • Sold house to the Flags after his father’s estate passed to a stepmother (resentment, small confrontation over retrieving personal effects).
  • Spotted on day of murder by police driving north toward Fayette in a maroon/tan car matching the one seen by the mail carrier ([46:16], [48:27]).
• Troubling history:
  • Previous kidnapping conviction (1979, 16-year-old girl).
  • Arrested for sex crimes, kept “a list of women’s names” ([47:45]).
• Provided elaborate alibi tracked in his diary and recounted by his aunt ([48:58]). Alibi “airtight” but suspiciously detailed, possibly fabricated.

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Other Suspects & Cold Case Stagnation

[54:13–56:41]

• Lloyd Frank Millet (multiple offenses, carny life, known to Flagg family) investigated in ‘95. Suspicious (“pallbearer at the funeral,” frequent flyer at jail), but ultimately has an alibi.
• Forensics in Maine catch up with DNA technology only by mid-1990s, leading to renewed interest in unsolved cases.

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Case Breakthrough: DNA Evidence and Arrest

[56:41–65:08]

• 2003–2006: Cold case detective Jason Richards re-opens the case.
• Old footprint casts painstakingly restored and matched to Mitchell’s confiscated shoes ([57:31]).
• Advanced DNA analysis (“YSTR”; PCR testing) on sperm sample found in Judith’s mouth and on baby’s clothing rules out Chad, overwhelmingly matches Mitchell ([58:09]).
  • Probability of random match: 1 in 69 trillion ([59:25]).

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Trial and Aftermath

[64:55–79:46]

Pre-Trial Shenanigans

• Mitchell fights to suppress evidence, citing the death/absence of original medical examiner and pushes alternate suspect theory (neighbor with similar shoes, car, and history). Alternate suspect excluded ([65:39–69:05]).
• Defense claims evidence contamination from scene, lack of direct eyewitnesses, argues Mitchell’s presence in house before Flagg family moved in explains his DNA ([73:02]).
• Ted and realtor contradict his claims of previous injuries/explanations.

Trial & Verdict

• June 2009: Trial moved to neighboring county due to publicity. Jurors familiar with DNA science ("This isn't like the O.J. jury").
• Jury deliberates 90 minutes: Guilty of intentional and knowing murder ([75:39]).
• Life without parole. Mitchell’s appeals based on alternate suspect theory and DNA statistics rejected.

“That man, this defendant, him, committed a crime so horrible it must be every woman’s nightmare.” – Prosecutor’s closing [74:02]

“His sperm was on a one-year-old’s sleeve... Explain that, asshole.” – James, on how damning the evidence was ([77:46])

Community & Family Response

• Relief and standing ovation for prosecutor in court ([75:40]).
• Quiet dignity from Judith’s family, crediting perseverance of investigators—even though investigation “stopped in ’84” ([76:08]).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Small Town Panic: “You knock on the door and you hear a shotgun rack—for a while anyway.” – James, [11:03]
• “If you have a common blood type, okay, you and half the population could have been there.” – Jimmie, on limitations of early forensics [35:11]
• “There were bloody fingerprints all over the house. We had to fingerprint everybody who responded that night.” – James, [40:41]
• “Justice delayed is justice denied.” – Defense argument, dismissed by hosts [72:59]
• “You, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole. Eat dicks. Dick eating line’s that way, asshole.” – James, on sentencing [76:54]

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Town background & banter: [04:46–10:42]
• Murder discovery & scene: [12:02–16:41]
• Victim’s timeline/day-of events: [24:55–34:31]
• Suspect Thomas Mitchell emerges: [44:49, 46:16, 47:23]
• Investigation woes/crime scene contamination: [40:27–41:34]
• Breakthrough (DNA, shoe matches, arrest): [56:55–59:25]
• Trial, defense/alt suspect, jury verdict: [65:39–76:54]
• Aftermath, family reaction, appeals: [76:54–79:46]

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Tone/Memorable Moments

• The hosts maintain a balance of gallows humor and empathy, lampooning small town quirks, police incompetence, and criminal stupidity while never mocking the victim.
• Frequent comedic asides, e.g. on deer watching as “entertainment”, the chaos of 50 townspeople contaminating a murder scene, and the absurdity of “sperm on a baby” as forensic evidence.
• Signature recurring bits (“You, sir, may fuck off!” at sentencing) and sharp sarcasm.

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Takeaway:

This episode is a quintessential Small Town Murder entry—blending gruesome crime, community drama, small-town eccentricity, and a long, winding road to justice. The case highlights both the failures of early 80s rural policing and the power of dogged cold case investigation. The story is both devastating and, through the hosts’ lens, darkly hilarious—especially as science finally catches up to an old grudge.

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“Crazy fucking story. And a lot of credit, by the way, to the family there. The Flags… they were patient, and they weren’t even shitty about it.” – James [79:09]

Transcript

[Jimmy Wissman]

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[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Choo choo.

[James Petregallo]

Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us this week again for another insane edition of Small Town Murder Express. As you know, 10 pounds of murder in a two pound bag is the way we like to put it. It's some wild stuff. And we have a crazy episode for you this week that just. It's one of those where when we do the disclaimer in the regular show we talk about we'll make fun of a bumbling police force that lets somebody. This is the perfect example of that of just a triplet. An utter screw up. We'll get to that and more. First though, head over to shutupandgivemerder.com get your tickets for live shows. They are all there laid out for you here if you are listening right when this comes out. Still time to get your Denver tickets. That would be Saturday, May 2nd. So get in there and get those. And then Royal Oak, Michigan has some tickets left. Very few tickets. Tickets actually on May 30, Buffalo is already sold out. And then in September we are Milwaukee, Minneapolis, then from there, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown, Boston. So get your tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Do that. Listen to our other shows. Of course, listen to crime and sports, which you don't have to like sports. That's the thing. It's just a crazy story. We just did a guy who murdered his girlfriend and fed her to dogs. I mean you don't have to like sports for that at all. So check that out as well. Check out your stupid opinions, which is just hilarious. Just an hour of comedy. Very, very funny.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a fun way to pitch a show to a stranger. What do you do? I make A podcast. What's it about? Oh, a soccer player that fed his girlfriend to dogs. Want to listen?

[James Petregallo]

That's just one week, though. Yeah. There's 500 more. Then get yourself Patreon. That's what you need. Patreon.com CrimeaSports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get everything. We put out, everything. I'm talking everything, including as soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back bonus episodes you've never heard before. Almost 400 of them, I believe at this point here. And then every other week you get even more. One crime and sports. One small town murder. And you get all of it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All of it.

[James Petregallo]

All of it. This week is no different for crime and sports. This week it's personal ads time again.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

Let's find out how people used to find people. It's pretty funny just perusing through the newspaper going, give this one a call.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's make me feel unwanted too.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. All the height requirements. And then for small town murder we are going to do. You know what? I'm gonna let you guys decide. We'll do another vote on the page there. Either Internet salad, which is always fun, talking about things from around the Internet, or that new FLDS documentary that is out the four parter there. That's a. That's a wild one.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a slip of the coin there.

[James Petregallo]

That's so much fun. Either way, we'll do the next one the next time. So it's not a big deal, but whichever one you guys want first, we'll do a vote on that. So check that out. That is patreon.com crimeinsports plus you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. Jimmy will mispronounce your name even though he'd love to get it correct. And then on top of that, you get everything we put out. Crime and sports. Your stupid opinion. Small town murder all ad free with your Patreon as well. You can't beat it, everybody. It's the best deal going. Very. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say here? Let's all clear the lungs. What do we say? Arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, let us do it. We're going to Maine this week.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Lovely place.

[James Petregallo]

We love Maine. Maine is great stuff here. We're going to Fayette, Maine. Fayette F. A Y E T T E Maine. It's in southern Maine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's just in ville. Just Fayette.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, just Fayette. It's in southern Maine. It's near Augusta, kind of, which is to the west. It's west of Augusta, inland from Augusta, it's about an hour 15 to Portland, about three hours to Boston. So it puts it out of the commutable time. So the prices go way down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But weekendable.

[James Petregallo]

But weekendable. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. And about an hour 22. Carmel, Maine or Carmel. I can't remember which one it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Which was our Carmel.

[James Petregallo]

Carmel. Our last main episode, episode 653, the surprising serial Killer, which was about a surprising serial killer. It's not pretty self explanatory. Surprise, surprise. This is in Kennebec county, area code 207 population here. It's a small place, 1274.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I love it.

[James Petregallo]

It's a cool little town. This place just, I mean, reeks of Stephen King. Like it's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fuck. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

It's just. There had to be a story put here. Probably had to be. Median house income here a little below the national average. Actually it's 54,375, which is about 15,000 under. No, it doesn't. And then median home cost here though isn't too much less than the national average. $300,000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

So that's a little bit high for that money. But there it is. A little bit of history of this town. It was first settled as either Sterling or Starling. There's different things.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Those mean two different things. Probably Starling, because there's probably the starling bird up there, right?

[James Petregallo]

Well, there was the Starling plantation that was up there in 1779 on 7,000 acres. So I think that's part of where it started from. So we're not sure. But Fayette was named for the Marquis de Lafayette, the French nobleman who offered his services to the Americans during the Revolution.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's where Fayette comes from.

[James Petregallo]

He said, fuck England is what I. I don't care. You guys, you don't even have like a government. That's fine. Fuck England because it's France and they hate England and England hates France. And that's just the way it works. They have a. They have like a friendly, like a. Like a Yankees Red Sox rivalry. They're very close right now. They're just across the channel from each other. They've both been around forever and they just, you know, like to snipe each

[Jimmy Wissman]

other, stand on the shore and Tell them to go fuck themselves.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Hey, fuck you. We got a lot of ponds and lakes in this. Like a ton. And right around here, there's nine of them that are pretty big.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's a shitload of water up there.

[James Petregallo]

Tons. There's an 11. There's a 1610 acre pond. Acre pond. 1610 acre pond. There's an 1185 acre lake. So I don't know what the difference between a lake and a pond is. If a pond can be bigger than a fucking lake. I don't understand it at all. That's what I always thought. Right, you thought, there's a town, then there's a city, and then there's a stream, there's a lake, there's a creek, and then, you know, there's a stream and a creek and a river and a pond and a lake and an ocean. Like that's what I always thought. Apparently not. Only one review of this town that I could find. It's pretty quiet here. So it's a three star review. And I said, it's pretty quiet here. And they concur, quote, quiet is the first. They got it. They nailed it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They spelled it right though, too, didn't they?

[James Petregallo]

They did. They did. Yeah. Quiet. Not quite like we see. So General Store, 15 minutes from groceries, coffee and restaurants. So they don't have anything really in this town proper. Has a private school and private summer camps for whatever that's worth. Now, things to do here. Okay, there is. This is so funny. It sounds like it's like the title, you know, how like Borat's thing is like, you know, film for use of blah, blah, blah, he'll use and different things. That's what this sounds like. It's called Fayette Heritage Days. A practical celebration of community and nature in Maine for benefit Kazakhstan. To benefit Kazakhstan. It's so funny. A practical celebration. Look, we're not going to go crazy. Very practical.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Real close to the chest.

[James Petregallo]

They say they open their arms to locals and visitors alike for Fayette Heritage Days, a festival that stitches together the rugged spirit of outdoor adventure with the genuine celebration of small town life that is Maine. You just described living in Maine. For the families, festivals, children's activities include deer watching.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That should be the only thing you do with them.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. By the way, if you've ever had little kids, see how long that they will go along with deer watching as an activity. That's not gonna. Let's be two seconds. Oh, wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How long before they go, can I ride it or touch it?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, now what do they do? Do they do anything? No, they're just gonna eat and stand there. Okay, that's it. That's it. Are they gonna take a sleigh up in the air? What are we looking at here? Also watching and storytelling by local elders. Nothing kids like more than hearing stories from old farts. That's what they love.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tell me about when you had a leather strap around your books while they

[James Petregallo]

stare at a deer nuzzling a pile of corn. Oh, my God.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That it doesn't eat.

[James Petregallo]

What the fuck?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Pushing food around.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, my God. And then it says for seasoned adventurers, the surrounding lakes beg for kayaking and fishing. They're asking for it. You betcha they're asking for it. That's the problem. Yeah. While dirt roads and hidden paths challenge the eye to find new perspectives. Okay, there we go. So that said, let's talk about a murder, everybody. Here we go. This is a.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's an idyllic place. It sounds.

[James Petregallo]

It's a very idyllic place. And what happens here is awful. So it's a. Oh, boy. It ruined this town for a while. I mean, these people were. It turned it from a. You know, don't lock your doors.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Anyone who comes over is a neighbor and a friend to who's there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Go away.

[James Petregallo]

Get away from the window. Like it turned into that shit. Like, it's really fast. So you just hear. You knock on the door and you hear a shotgun rack. For a while anyway.

[Jimmy Wissman]

My ring doorbell alerts one more time. I'm letting loose with both these barrels

[James Petregallo]

right through the door. I'm not even opening it. I'll get a new door. So let's start on January 6, 1983. This is when this town kind of has a little broken piece here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

New Year, New US New Year.

[James Petregallo]

Post holidays. It's cold up in Maine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Snowing, January, punishing day.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, it's southern Maine, so it's not that bad. When you get northern Maine, that's real bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is pretty bad.

[James Petregallo]

It's like the temperatures here are like 3 degrees colder than where I am. It's not that bad. Yeah, until you get north of, like, Bangor, then it gets fucking cold.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's when it gets ugly.

[James Petregallo]

Then you're in trouble. Yeah, that's when you're in some deep shit over there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I watched that sea wall in Portsmouth. The waves coming over water. The waves were freezing.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, that's awesome. I love it. I love that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Shooting ice at the cars.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. So on January 6th, 1983. It's 11pm okay. Theodore D. Flagg. Flagg is with two G's by the way. He goes by Ted. Ted D. Flagg. Teddy Flagg over here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Teddy Flagg.

[James Petregallo]

The old Teddy Flag.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Amazing.

[James Petregallo]

He returns from work at about 11pm he worked a double shift at the James River Paper Mill in Chisholm. Oh, boy, that's a brutal day.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What do you do with the paper mills? Is that turning? I mean, you're turning trees into paper?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I'm not sure at this point. That's kind of where a lot of the guys still worked in town, was at the mills, basically. And he's a young guy here, he's about 25 years old and he's got a young wife and a young baby that he's trying to support. And so he's taking whatever shifts he can. He's doing double shifts here now. He says he worked a double shift at the James River Paper Mill and then he came in through the cellar door as usual, which is a big east coast thing to come in through the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

As not to wake anybody.

[James Petregallo]

As not to wake anybody. And if you come from a dirty job, it's to change. They have the Pittsburgh toilet. Look that up. We've talked about it before, where it's like. And they have a drain in the floor where you can wash the soot off of you if you worked in a mine, basically. So he comes through the cellar door and he sees that all the lights were off except for the light from the stereo when he gets upstairs. So you know that faint 83 glow, that 83 stereo light, you don't see much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, you know what that is? That's the backlight of the turn dial with the little needles there.

[James Petregallo]

And maybe the radio station bar that kind of lights up usually too.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But not digital. It's just the light that glows.

[James Petregallo]

It just glows. So you can see it, but it's just all the band of radio stat.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That little red line that goes through that you turn.

[James Petregallo]

I remember my dad's stereo had one just like that. And if it was on, that's what would glow that and behind the thing. So he sees that. He turns the lights on at the top of the cellar stairs and he sees his wife Judith here, who is young too. This is crazy. She is 23 years old. Sees her lying on the floor in the living room and she looks dead and she's got the telephone clutched in her hand next to her. And their one year old baby Chad is also there. So he's freaking out. Chad is laying on top of her chest.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

He's got blood all over him, as does she. But Chad looks fine. He's alert. And he pops up. He seems fine. He's just covered in blood.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, just looks terrible.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, looks bad. Now he sees that Judith's face is bruised and there's a blood stain on her chest. And the telephone's kind of beneath her body where she was holding it. And she has been stabbed multiple times in the chest.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Lock that baby up.

[James Petregallo]

It's horrible. Yeah. This baby is aggressive.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He is dangerous.

[James Petregallo]

He's a dangerous young man. So the baby has blood on his clothes. And so Ted picks up the baby and goes down. Back down the stellar stairs. He said to get away from that scene. And calls. Picks up the phone and calls relatives. What doesn't call the police, he calls relatives.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So unless they're the police, unless you

[James Petregallo]

got a relative who's a homicide detective, I don't know what the hell you're doing here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And an ambulance driver.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, well, she's well beyond an ambulance at this point. The blood's dried already. It's bad. So somebody. We're talking dozens of people come over. Tons of people. Like his whole family comes over to support him. No, somebody in this mix called the police. Luckily, someone said, hey, did anyone call the cops at all? We should probably do that. And someone called the cops.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I see there's all of us here and no red and blues.

[James Petregallo]

And I guess that would be a confusing scene to walk into. To walk in and find your wife dead and your baby covered in blood. And you go downstairs, you call your mom or somebody. Oh, my God. What the fuck's going on? I don't know if your brain would work right at that point, but. Not sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's also a small town thing where towns tend to. They're so knit together, they're like, I need help. I call my family.

[James Petregallo]

That's possible.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Only us big city folk are like, get the police here fast.

[James Petregallo]

Well, yeah, they can probably get there faster than the cops too, if it's right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's probably true too.

[James Petregallo]

So she dies of. Judith dies of multiple stab wounds to the back and chest. Now, the police tentatively set her time of death at about 11am 12 hours earlier. Oh, now he's been gone 16 hours, but 12 hours earlier. Also, she has defensive wounds on her hands, her fingers, and her left wrist. And we find out she's also been raped orally, we'll say, oh, jeez. As well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And this poor baby's been there for 12 hours with a dead mom crawling

[James Petregallo]

around in the blood basically and just decided to crawl up on his mom and go to sleep. I mean, that's just doesn't know. I mean it's a one year old, so there's no idea now, obviously. First question, where was Ted? Yeah, we want to know where Ted is, but the problem is they find out Ted was at the local paper mill the entire double shift. Everybody saw him. He punched in, he punched out. There's no. I mean his machine would have just been running without him if he wasn't there. So he had to be there. So he's definitely not the guy. Immediately they clear Ted as a suspect. So that's good. Here they know that Judith is a stay at home mom. She stayed at home with their 13 month old son Chad all day. And let's find out a little more about Judith here. She's born Judith L Dion D I O N and that's January 3, 1960. So she just had her 23rd birthday three days ago. Very young. Parents are Pauline and Alex Dionne and she's got siblings Doreen and David as well here. She's been in the area of Fayette her whole life. She's a local girl. She went to J high school in the area, graduated in 78. She was into. She had a bunch of athletic stuff she was doing. She was on the field hockey team, the ski team, she was a cheerleader. So she's very active and stuff. Yeah, in her yearbook she said she wanted to work in the data processing field in the future.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What does that mean?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. Data, I guess. Entered data. Not data entry, data processing. I'm not sure. In 1983, data processing means something much different than it means now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

In 78, the tech industry of today.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, in 78, when she graduated, that probably sounded like high tech shit. Like, ooh, the data processing industry.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She wanted a 10 key calculator is what she wanted.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She married Ted Flagg about a year after she graduated from high school. And he's from the area too. It's a small town, you know, small town love and get married early and they have a baby and he's working double shifts at the mill. Like, you know, it's a Bruce Springsteen song.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's beautiful.

[James Petregallo]

It's crazy. She was also associated at one point with the Spruce Mountain Ski School and also coached skiing and water skiing for a number of years as well in her teen years. She's athletic.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, freeze it. I'll ski on it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'll ski on it.

[James Petregallo]

I'll ski on it, no matter what. She's very athletic and very. She's not a meek little thing. She can do things. And she's kind of strong, too. Capable. I mean, like small framed and not a big person, but athletic and kind of spunky, we'll say. So July 7, 1979, is when she married Ted. And like I said, Ted is also from the Fayette area. And they met and fell in love when they were teenagers. They've been going out for a few years and they get married here. They have a son, Chad, Alex. Right after that, when they get married, she gets pregnant, they have a son. I mean, they're doing. Yeah, John Cougar Mellencamp is taking notes. He's like, what are you guys doing over there? Okay, all right, well, I'll. If I just put that on a farm, I got something. Just take that story and move it to Indiana. I really got something here. 1980, they buy a new home. This is the home that they live in when she is killed. It is on Watson Heights Road. And they bought it from the estate of a man named Thomas Mitchell, who had recently died. He's an older guy. They bought the house for $48,000, according to property records. I mean, that's 1980.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's expensive.

[James Petregallo]

That's a decent priced house. Like a pretty, not expensive, exorbitant, but not a cheap, cheap house.

[Jimmy Wissman]

High middle class in a small town.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's not bad. At this point, Judith is just a. She's a housewife and a mother she's raising. The baby's a year old, so, I mean, she's been raising this infant for the last year, and he's been working double shifts, and that's how they've been doing it. So what was the day like on January 6, 1983? They're trying to piece together what happened here. They know Ted came home at 11. They talked to him. He said he saw Chad huddled against his mother's body. He said, I quote, I came into the house and found my little boy curled up on my wife, cuddling her. He'd been crying and he looked like he'd been asleep, so he's probably starving, too. He said he was covered in blood. He had nothing to eat all day. The fire was out. The house was getting cold.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, this is horrible, he said. I turned on the light and he came running to me, jibber jabbering, and just dug his little fingernails into me, hugging and squeezing. Hey, he's probably been terrified all day. Poor kid. He doesn't know what's going on. God, that poor kid. He said when he found his wife, quote, she was cold, rigor mortis had set in, and her body was stiff. So Ted's also pretty smart if he knows those things. Pre investigation discovery and all this shit being on all the time. If you knew that in 1983, your reasonable intelligence knew things, or you lived

[Jimmy Wissman]

in the woods where emergency services aren't necessarily rendered fast and you've probably seen a dead body.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, I just meant he knows the word rigor mortis.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what I mean.

[James Petregallo]

He got stiff.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. My point is he probably saw a dead body when he. When he was younger and they were like, oh, rigor's already set in.

[James Petregallo]

What's that now? Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I. There are a lot of dumb people that wouldn't know that in 1980. They'd know that now. Back then, I don't know how much the term rigor was thrown around casually in conversation. Now. It is, but it's not.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And they probably didn't say it rigor, like all casual like. They probably said rigor mortis.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. Yeah. So for someone, a layman, to know that who's like 25 years old and works at a paper mill, he must read a book or two or see something and see a movie. So, yeah, he said that, you know, the lights were off, the baby was crying, came to him, he called his relatives, somebody called the cops. Now, when the police arrived, there were footprints in the snow leading to the kitchen door that they found. To the kitchen door from outside. So that's a good thing. None of the relatives went that way and Ted didn't go that way. So those are.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, they went through the basement.

[James Petregallo]

Right. Those are something to look at here. And blood stains on the floor in the baby's room. So they're like, okay, this didn't just happen here. This had to go in multiple rooms. So they made casts of the footprints in the snow and they took photos and all of that. They removed and bagged all the clothing. They bagged the child's clothing, they placed the bags over her hands and did the whole crime scene thing. So they did all that. Correct. Which you might go, yeah, yeah, who cares? That's crime scene stuff. But in 1983, in a town which at the time had about 600 people in it, fuck. You're not guaranteed to get a half decent crime scene. We've done shows like this where the mayor comes over and like, you know, mayor comes over, brings the kids. They're like dropping Cheerios on the floor like it's insanity.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So the game warden's showing up, counting elk pelts.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah. How many elk pelts you got in here? There's a body. That's the problem.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, but I'm about to find somebody.

[James Petregallo]

Well, I'm about to. Hold on, let me get my fine book out. So the deputy Chief Medical examiner performed the autopsy, took a blood sample of the fingernails and swabs of all orifices on Judith here. He put everything in separate containers and gave them to the Maine State Police Crime laboratory. So that's how they did all of the crime scene. Now, what did Judith do that day? She spoke to a lot of people, so we can get a timeline.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, that's good. She's social media.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, she's got talks with her family a lot, too. About 10:30am she spoke with her sister on the phone. She told her sister that a man had called earlier that morning asking for Ted. And he said that Judith said she told him, this man, that her husband was working and wouldn't be home till 11pm so she just told the stranger that I'm all alone in the house till 11pm you know, I'll even be here after dark. Don't worry. For quite a long time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Several hours after dark. Because it gets dark at 4 here right now.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. January, that is 3:50. It is dark outside in Maine. So she said that man didn't leave his name and that he just said he was an old friend of Ted's and he wanted to surprise him. So don't tell him I called. Basically, this show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com you know it, Jimmy. And you know we're big proponents of therapy. Everybody could use some therapy. It's saved Jimmy's life and it saved a lot of lives out there. And May is Mental Health Awareness Month. A reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is long and it's hard. Some days are great and some days aren't. And some days are just even worse and overwhelming and everything. You'll get kept up at night by something. And, you know, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it out on your own. But the truth is you don't have all the answers. Nobody does. And no journey should be taken like that alone. Having someone with you to listen and to understand and support you, that is the Big deal. That's the difference maker. It's everything. And you know, we've had hard things go on and therapy is some way that you can really solve it. It really, really is. And Mental Health Awareness Month. Everyone should be aware all the time of their mental health. It's huge. It's a big deal. It can even impact on your physical health. It's a lot. So telling you betterhelp is the way to do this. They have quality therapists. Better help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct, but are fully licensed in the US now. The way they match you with their therapist, that's the difference too. Better help does the initial matching work for you so you can just focus on your therapy goals? There's a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences. And they use their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate, which means they usually get it right the first time. But if you're not happy with your match for any reason, you switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. No charge. They just want you to get help. It's great. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works. It really does. With an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. What are you waiting for? There's no reason to suffer anymore. Get in there. Help yourself out. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] SmallTownMurder that's betterhelp.com SmallTown Murder now back to the show. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you how to get all of your clothes at a much better price with quince.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Quince.comqu I n c e.com I'm telling

[James Petregallo]

you, Quince is the best place to buy clothes. I just bought a shirt because we're going out to dinner and I just bought a shirt to go out to dinner. It's awesome. I love quints. It's always my first and ends up being my last stop for clothes because I find what I'm looking for, so it's the best. And lately, you know, I've been a little more intentional about what I'm trying to wear every day. Trying to find things that are comfortable that look cool still, you know what I mean? It's Just, it's hard. But with Quints, it just makes getting dressed a lot simpler. Quint's is my go to Jimmy's too. I know the fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean, and everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quint's has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. Lightweight, breathable and comfortable. But still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants are also something that hits that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable, but still polished enough to wear pretty much everywhere. Like Jimmy's linen pants that he purchased from Quince. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you wear you'd find at similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories. What they do is cut out the middleman. All they do is take your money, the middle man. They're not doing anything. They do cut that out and they give you the premium stuff, the premium materials without the markup. That's what I've always found at Quint's. And I do all my shopping at Quint's. First and last stop. And it should be your first and last stop too. You can't believe how good a quality clothes you get. For the prices there. It's unbelievable. Refresh with everyday luxury you'll actually use. Head to quints.com smalltownmurder for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com Smalltown Murder for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com SmalltownMurder now back to the show. During the phone conversation with her sister, she put down the phone because somebody was at the door. Judith does. When Judith gets back on the phone, she tells her sister that her husband's friend was there and that she'll call her back. I'll call you back. The guy who called earlier, he's here now. Which. Why would you. You know what I mean? Why would you want to talk to this guy? I already told you, he's not here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

He works at the mill. Go down there. Maybe you can catch him at lunch or something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Maybe he thought 11 o' clock is just in a few minutes. I'll just beat him there.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she said 11 tonight though. Anyway, she didn't call back and her sister got busy signals. Every time she tried to call back that day, her sister kept trying to call her back about 10:45am Judith called her brother. She said that a man who claimed to be a friend of her husband's was at the house complaining of car trouble. And her brother's a mechanic. That's why she called him. Can you come over and help this guy get the fuck out of my driveway? Essentially, yeah. He offered to come over and help, but the man said, never mind, I'll stop somewhere and fay it. So the guy. So Judith's brother didn't go over to the house. I was like, all right, well, never mind. Then about noon, a male person here was on her route carrying, you know, driving uphill toward the house with the mail. And the road is slippery because it had been snowing all day long. So the day of the murder, it's a big snow day. She saw an oncoming car here. She saw a car crest the hill and swerve into a ditch and then back onto the road so that it almost struck her car. But then the writer, the driver, got her shit together and ended up driving past her. Which if you've seen snowy environments, that happens all the time. You'll see cars do a slip out, do that. Oop, boop. Correct. And then get their shit together and go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And you get a good giggle.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. But she noticed the car because it did that. And she said the car had a maroon body and a tan top. She said that the driver was a clean shaven male in his early 20s with light brown hair, wearing a tan coat, a gray wool scarf and no glasses. She got a good look, real specific look. And that's because when you're driving, especially on a back road like this, not a highway, and it's been snowing, you're driving seven miles an hour and you

[Jimmy Wissman]

see somebody do something dumb and you go, who did that? Piece of shit.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, look at this fucking idiot. But you don't even think that in the snow when someone slides, you're just like, oh shit, don't slide into me. Once they get past you, you're like, okay, I'm safe, that's good. So she saw the car's everything and the guy in it. She said the driver looked straight ahead without making eye contact with her. But she certainly was doing there. She was definitely looking at him now, between 2 and 3pm, Judith's brother in law, so Ted's brother, I believe, or Judith's sister's husband, I'm not sure. Somebody comes over to the house to install a new starter in a truck that they have at the house. A lot of mechanical work going in the snow. You're going to put a new starter in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

If we need that truck, we need that truck.

[James Petregallo]

We need it. So Judith's car was in the driveway, but he said she didn't come to the window when her brother in law drove in. And he assumed that she didn't hear him arrive or maybe went out with relatives or something. So he said he installed the starter and left after being at the house for 45 minutes to an hour.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Atta boy.

[James Petregallo]

So that's good. And right away the cops are like, okay, so you were at the house during the day, we're gonna have a chat with you then. But it all lines up. He was only gone for 45 minutes. Yeah. And the car had a new starter in it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that's an hour job.

[James Petregallo]

You know what I mean? Yeah. He would have been real fast if he could go in there, murder her, then change a starter and go back to work. That would be pretty impressive, I gotta say. That's a really thoughtful murder. Good news and bad news. Good news, that starter, that thing runs like a top. Bad news, had to kill your wife as a payment. Sorry.

[Jimmy Wissman]

75 Chevy's running like a top.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's running like a top. So they set, like I said, set the time of Death at about 11:00pm 11:00am Basically there's blood and there's other blood and there's some hair and stuff like that, but. But this is 1983, so that really doesn't mean that much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It doesn't do much.

[James Petregallo]

Blood is blood type, essentially. Which means if you have a common blood type, okay, you and half the population could have been there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. There's very little you can learn from the blood apart from direction, how long

[James Petregallo]

it's been, what color it is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's the right color.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And is it dry or wet?

[James Petregallo]

That helps too. Yeah. For the length of everything. They did find sperm in her mouth as well. Which is maybe the grossest sentence I've ever said on this show.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I hate that you did.

[James Petregallo]

There's no other way to put it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's too substance and it's location.

[James Petregallo]

That's all I have to say. Some terrible shit on this show that I don't want to say. And people please know that I'm not taking in joy in saying they found sperm in her mouth. I think that's the most horrible thing I could think of. That's just bad. That's the last place you want to find that after this happens. That's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, there's not a. There's Not a word, scientific or otherwise, for it. That is not vile.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. That's what they found. So they asked Ted, does Ted have any idea who or why this could possibly happen? Are you guys in a fight with somebody? Are you anything? And Ted said, quote, I have no idea why we had no enemies. I'm easygoing, she's easygoing. I. She couldn't kill a fly or a spider. I've never even stepped on anybody's toes. Like we're just take it as it comes, easy going, small town people. Nobody should want to kill us. There's no reason for us trying to raise a kid, trying to raise a baby here. Now, the day after the murder, the mail carrier was again delivering mail on her regular route and saw the police were at the flag's home. And she stopped to tell the officers what she had seen the day before. The guy with the maroon car, tan top. Now, she worked with a detective to develop a composite picture of the driver she saw in the two tone car. Because, I mean, it's just a guy on the road, but they have nothing else. So this will help. Maybe. The mail carrier was never able to identify a particular individual as the driver and could not identify a specific car. So she turns out to be kind of useless. Yes, sort of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But yeah, maroon cars with tan tops back then were so common.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, but there's some specific things about this car that we'll talk about that

[Jimmy Wissman]

make it less common.

[James Petregallo]

That kind of at least give you an idea of, okay, here's a guy who had a car like that. It doesn't mean he did anything, but at least kind of takes him in a direction that we're gonna go in here. So that same day, the state police enter the investigation they don't trust. The small town police force is not set up to do a giant investigation. They're just not. They don't have the resources. The officers, they don't have it. So they need the state police. So the state police moved in and set up a command post. And the commander of the state police criminal division said what we get from the public is generally the most important information. And they said they don't want to be more than a local telephone call away. They said they don't want to have someone have to make a long distance call. They said if some, yeah, if some people have to pay more than 10 cents, they won't call. Meaning at a payphone. Yeah, you have to. They tell you to put an extra dime in, you're like, listen, I'm not doing an LD here. This is crazy. Not happening. So they did that. Now the town is fucking freaked. As we said earlier, the town is. It's wild. Here is the owner of the Fayette Country Store.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yep.

[James Petregallo]

She's got her finger on the pulse of the town here, Jean Hewitt. She said, everybody's scared to death all the women that are home. You're bound to be when something like this happens. And then another woman here who was there at the time and lived there, said what ensued with the town was remarkable. By a year later, nobody was a stay at home mom. Everyone had jobs outside the house. Really. It scared these people into the workplace, careers, just they didn't want to sit in there. Now, at the same time, the economy was terrible at that time too, so they might have needed to get jobs, but people apparently didn't want to be home alone all day based on this. So they check out some leads here and they say that they did a door to door investigation in the area. It's basically the whole town. They went door to door, you know anything, you know, anything. They don't really have much on it, though. They also have some evidence problems. This is the problem when you have 50 people come to a crime scene. They said the home was sealed for a week and a 12 man command center operated in the Fayette area for about a month to track down leads. The investigation began in the home and expanded to the neighborhood. But people who visited the flag home complicated the investigation and may have cost police a lot of information. One officer here estimates that 50 people trod through the flag house before police even got there. What? Before they even got there, 50 people were in the house. No one said, hey, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, outside, we'll hang out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

They said potential evidence may have been destroyed, trampled, other evidence might have. Now, something we think is evidence is not evidence. Really.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Somebody could have picked up a knife and been like, ew, this is gross. Wash it. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They said there were bloody fingerprints all over the house. We had to fingerprint everybody who responded that night. They said there were so many people walking around outside. It would really help us a lot if they stayed away. And I don't know if this is, in this case, if they destroyed any evidence or not. So we have no idea. And this is a problem here. Now, Ted, to the media, said that he would. They asked, Ted, just how are you doing? And he said that he would like to thank God that whoever stabbed his wife repeatedly had not harmed his child, at least. So at least there's that that's a pretty grim thanking God. Wow. So they have a whole command post set up here and they're asking their questions are, did you see anything unusual, any strange vehicles, strange faces? What did you know about the victim? What else do you know? And if everyone said I don't know then they moved on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

That's how they did it. They said they have a lot of tips coming over the phone and into the door and you know, but he said it's. They've talked to more than 150 people in the first week. But they said much of what they heard is just unattributed rumors. It's small town rumors. They don't know shit. They got nothing, nothing of substance. They said we need to find out how these rumors start. A rumor might contain information only the perpetrator and the police would know. When the police find out who started it, they may have the killer right there. So that's an interesting thing here. But they might not. That's the other thing. Might have just heard something at the old general store. I mean who the hell knows here. They said a lot of people think the investigation stops. It doesn't. It continues to. And through the first day of trial we're always looking for additional evidence. They said oftentimes people decide who had withheld information may talk to us now that the cat's out of the bag. So yeah, and they say too there's a. But some of these tips just don't really help. And by the way, the confidence in whether they can solve this or not is a little bit low because there is a whole article here from early 1984 about the stats of how much they solve. And it is not confidence inducing at all. Very bad. They said during 1983, 24 murders occurred in Maine while 21 murder cases including one from the prior year were cleared for a clearance rate of 87.5%. Not bad. I'd like to see how many people were convicted actually. But clearance rate has to do with arrest. You can arrest somebody, release them the next day, that's still a clear case. Wow. Yeah, that's how the stats work. That's why they do that a lot by the way. Cuz they go by clearance rate. Forcible rapes they get at 79.8% and aggravated assaults at 80.2%. Motor vehicle thefts all the way down at 39% and burglaries 26.2%.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And this is kind of a break in thing. So they're not good at solving based on evidence, it seems like.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What if you combine all of them together except for that car theft one.

[James Petregallo]

That's a good one.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know what I mean? That's what this is. This is bad.

[James Petregallo]

During 1982, though, I have that. During 1982, the National Crime clearance rate stood at. Take a guess.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nationally.

[James Petregallo]

National crime clearance rate 85. 20.1%.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Unless you're a moron, you pretty much get away with things.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, the crime rate was five times higher than it is now. Not five, but it's way higher than it was now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And clearance sub 30.

[James Petregallo]

And that doesn't even mean convicted. Like I said, that means you could have arrested someone, let him go, because you don't have information, you don't have enough evidence. And that's still a clearance, which is pretty wild here. Now, 1984, not a lot of suspects. A year has gone by, but they have a suspect. They have one that they were kind of interested in. Thomas H. Mitchell Jr. Born 1957. He's the guy, remember? Does that name sound familiar?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thomas Mitchell. No.

[James Petregallo]

Thomas Mitchell Sr. Is his dead father whose estate sold the house to the Flags.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

He's Thomas Mitchell Jr. And apparently when his dad died, the house was left to his stepmother. And he was fucking furious about that. He thought it should have went to him. So Judith and her husband purchased the house from the stepmother. Soon thereafter, Thomas Mitchell arranged with the flags to collect personal items that he had left behind in the home because it was his dad's house. The first time Mitchell came to the house to get his coffee. Shit, nobody was home. So he left a note, basically saying, thanks for nothing. I drove all the way here for nothing? What the fuck? You're not even here. After getting the note, Ted, rather than have a confrontation about it, just gathered up all his shit and took it to the realtor, who did the house. Yeah, there you go. You be the middleman. And then in 1981, Thomas Mitchell came to Flagg's home again. And when Ted answered the door, Flag was standing there. When Ted told Thomas Mitchell that the items he wanted were at the realtor, he said he looked like he was pissed. And he was like, all right, fine. And he left. Which that's not really a he must be the murderer type of thing, you know what I mean? But he's somebody that might be mad at them. That's literally all they had.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's all we have at that point. Everybody else loves us.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Now the same thing though. On January 6, 1983, a South Portland police detective saw Thomas Mitchell, whom he knew Personally, at about 7am driving a 2 tone 73 Ford Thunderbird in Portland headed north on the i295. Portland's about 70 miles south of Fayette by car and said he was heading that direction. But he's 70 miles away just because you're headed north. He could have been going to Montreal, you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

An hour and a half away.

[James Petregallo]

Who knows? Now a little bit on his background, which made him a little bit more interesting to the police. While on furlough from the Maine State prison for a 1978 kidnapping conviction. Here we'll talk about. He got furloughed there. He was released from prison in 1980, December in 1979. That's why his shit was still there. He couldn't get it when they moved out because he was in prison. In 79 he was convicted of kidnapping a 16 year old girl in Portland.

[Jimmy Wissman]

For what?

[James Petregallo]

For what do you think? He served four years in prison. The jury did not convict him on a related rape charge somehow. But he kidnapped her for no reason, apparently. In 1981 he was indicted and found innocent on charges of gross sexual misconduct and threatening with a dangerous weapon.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's his deal?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. And the county sheriff's department investigators said they found a list of women's names and addresses in his possession when he was arrested, but they didn't give any other details.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He was gonna do it a lot.

[James Petregallo]

That was apparently his thing here. He had like a Rex Uhrman file going on in his computer or something. So there's a search warrant obtained to seize a pair of shoes of his from his South Portland residence to compare them to the casts of the snow footprints. They also obtain a sample of his blood and noted his possession of a car that was olive green with a tan roof and maroon primer paint on the driver's door. So that's what the postal worker would have seen. So he has a car like that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Maroon primer ain't a thing. That's an old door from a different car.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I don't know why that's what it says in the court document, but I understand maroon.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The door is just maroon though.

[James Petregallo]

The door is maroon? Yeah. So they interview his aunt who he lives with. Okay. Eleanor Foley. And she says that she has a handwritten account of his activities on the date of the murder. My aunt likes to keep track of. Imagine your aunt keeping track of your activities when you're 27 years old and keeping it written all down and everything.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Moreover, imagine calling the cops and saying, I have a handwritten description of everything that happened. They're going to go, so the fuck why?

[James Petregallo]

Big deal. What does that mean? So they also ask him about it. And he refers investigators to his daily diary, which ran from 1982 to June 85, by the way. Later on we'll talk about what happens to him in June 85. What the hell, I'll give it away now. In June 85 he's charged with raping and attempting to murder a woman in Cumberland County.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So it stops there. Cause he doesn't have the book anymore. Cause he's in jail.

[James Petregallo]

Well, that's when he stopped writing. Yeah. They wouldn't let him take it in there. Kept meticulous track of his movements at the request of his family members who believed police were harassing and hassling him. So they said keep meticulous notes of where you are. Like writing it down means you were there. It doesn't mean shit. So his diary for the day is. And this is his aunt Eleanor who made his diary entries because apparently he doesn't write too well. He's a stenographer. Yeah. She detailed. He told his aunt that he got out of bed at 8:15. She's his biographer. She's gonna note everything. Showered and got coffee before going to town with his aunt. They stopped at Bentley's for breakfast, then went to headhunter's for a haircut while she ran an errand. At 11:45am he met up with his aunt, exchanged a shirt he got for Christmas and had a snack. When he got home at 12:30, he said he went to a friend's house, returned home at 2pm, napped until 4.30pm this guy's got quite the fucking life. I would love to live this guy's life. Ate supper, then went to another friend's home and got home at about 11:45pm Midnight. Midnight. Had a snack and went to bed. Quite the day. So there's nothing they can do to poke any holes in this. He has his time accounted for better than most people do. When you ask him where were you a year and a half ago? He goes, I'll tell you exactly where I am.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. We do also have it in pencil.

[James Petregallo]

True. But that was in the Adnan Syed case. That was one of the big things that they. That they thought was a big smoking gun is he couldn't remember where he was. Cuz who the fuck. A random Tuesday a year ago, where Were you, Jimmy? Who the hell knows, you know what I mean? I don't know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tuesday. Shit.

[James Petregallo]

But you have a diary. They can't say anything. So, 2-2-84, the rewards up to $4,300, which doesn't seem like a lot. Seems like there should probably be more. The guy leading the investigation says we're confident it won't go unsolved if it takes another six months or whatever. We're determined to solve it. It, we are gonna solve it. He said that they were working it real hard, but then the police, quote, got clobbered with a series of murders and sex crimes that demanded their immediate attention. People are just raping all over the place. We gotta tend to it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Interesting choice of words.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I'm real clobbered with all this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Rape, murder.

[James Petregallo]

Just clobbered by it, tell you what I mean. I'm just like penetrated by it, you know what I mean? If that makes sense.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, like gobsmacked. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So June 20, 1985, that's member Thomas Mitchell. This is when he's convicted of kidnapping and attempting to murder a 17 year old girl in Standish.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Yes, that is horrifying. He is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. 35 years in prison for that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a long.

[James Petregallo]

He's put away for a while. So if they ever consider him a

[Jimmy Wissman]

suspect, we've got him.

[James Petregallo]

You know where he is? He was arraigned on charges of kidnapping, rape and attempted murder. He was arrested about 9pm at his home. A teenager who was found walking in Standish Monday afternoon after suffering from a severe neck wound named him as her assailant.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, God.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Now they talk. They go back to the press, goes back to the flag investigation cops and they go, hey, are you gonna go talk to him again? And the one cop said, there's no plans to interview Mitchell. They said that they've talked to him. They said, and they wouldn't call. They go, is his arrest a break in the case? And they said, not at all. They said, we interviewed him about a year ago. His name came up because his father owned the residence where the Flags lived. That was the only connection to it. That was it. They said that he was a suspect. They said he was going there to get some furniture that had been left by his father and that's why he was at the house two years earlier.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But other than that, it's not just like a trophy from Little League. This is big, ticking items.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he had like some furniture and shit. So 1985 or 1995, November 1995. There's a new suspect. 12 years have gone by. We have a new suspect. We have Lloyd Frank Millet, Double L, double D. He admitted to multiple murders.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, really?

[James Petregallo]

Yes, admitted to it. So now the cops are looking at six unsolved homicide or missing person cases over the last 12 years to see if either have a tangible link to him. So they're looking into that. He's the son of a truck driver. He grew up in the area. You know, sort of in the area here. He had a falling out with his mother as a teenager and got kicked out of his house and became a carny.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nice.

[James Petregallo]

I'm saying guilty right away. He's a carny, whatever you accuse him of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And a multiple murderer.

[James Petregallo]

And a multiple murderer. Yeah. Where is that a multiple murderer? What is that? Oh, it's a Frasier episode. Never mind. Okay. He lived around Fayette in his mid-20s and became a friend of Ted and Judith Flagg when he lived near their home. So he knows that. So they said that Millet was a pallbearer at the funeral of Judith. Yeah, so they said. What are the odds in a small town like this that your wife did it?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Carried her?

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. That there's another murderer who happened to be friends with her. But he didn't murder her. He just carried the crap.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

What are the fucking odds of that? You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Was he already a murderer prior to that? Did that kick him over the edge carrying a body like that?

[James Petregallo]

That's what they're trying to figure out. He's got had tons of problems in the courts. He was arrested in four years between 87 and 91. He was arrested at least 14 times. Was convicted of rape, assault, mischief, drunk driving, writing bad checks. He's a renaissance man. Really?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

The former district attorney called him, quote, a frequent flyer.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You bet.

[James Petregallo]

That's the guy here. A former boss said he was gentle with farm animals, though he was once convicted for cruelty to his dog. After the murder is when he left this area and drifted from town to town working as a logger and a farmhand. Then he got married in 87. He got arrested a whole bunch of times. He was also, I guess one of the people he's accused of killing was a 17 year old girl that lived right by them. So that's not great. He threatened to blow his wife's head off. She divorced him and she said she regretted that she divorced him because he became a constant pain in the ass. So that's their Main suspect in 95, 1996. Maine state's crime lab finally begins possessing the technology and training to test DNA specimens.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's great.

[James Petregallo]

96. Okay. 2003. So 96 to 2003, nothing happened. Seven years of nothing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Seven years they did nothing.

[James Petregallo]

Millett does not turn out to be the guy they think too. They think he had an alibi that day.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So there's a total new investigation. Police detective Jason Richards is assigned to take over the case. Basically, fresh eyes. Look this over. See what we did wrong, fix it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

See what we missed.

[James Petregallo]

Because now it's 20 years later. So all the people that were in charge, that don't wanna be embarrassed aren't in charge anymore. So now it's go back and tell us what we did WR 25 years ago. Yeah. So he does that. The footprint cast they have that. He gets them out of evidence. They still have them, but they were broken. A crime lab technician specializing in imprint evidence put them back together piece by piece like a puzzle. She said the prints allowed her to tell the size, tread design and manufacturer's mold used to make the shoes worn by whoever made the footprints.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nice.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Now of all the stuff they have, they say the lab person says they have matched the shoes to Thomas Mitchell. Shoes that were taken in 1984.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that right?

[James Petregallo]

Yes, they said they match these shoes. Okay. Then they do DNA tests, the swab taken from the mouth that detect the presence of sperm cells. They tested both Judith and Chad's clothing. The sleeve of Chad's clothing also contains traces of semen. There was semen on a baby? I don't think we've ever had an episode where there's semen on a baby, but there's semen on a baby.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And I'm grossed out by that so bad.

[James Petregallo]

The crime lab ran tests on the specimens. This is a procedure which screens out X chromosome genetic material which typically exists in females. And a YSTR test can exclude individuals, but it can't match samples to people. Now, now the tests excluded 13 year old Chad. He didn't rape his mother orally. 13 month old Chad, a one year old, is not the source of the semen. We can scientifically say that. Okay. Now they tested it to Mitchell's and they said the result was that Thomas Mitchell could not be excluded as the source of the male DNA. So then you go from there and you do a more in depth one. Yeah, we go down the funnel here and they said that they detected two matches here when they did the next test, the PCR test and one was Judith Flagg. And the other DNA is Thomas Mitchell. Yep. They said the chance that a random person could have left the sample would have been about 300 billion to 1. However, in this case, the random match probability was estimated at 69,000,000,000,000 to 1. Uh oh, there's billion and then there's trillion and there's quadrillion. So that's a lot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That means they've got almost all of his alleles.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. There hasn't been 69,000,000,000 people who've lived on the earth since the earth has been a thing. Like there hasn't been. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to do your shopping with thrive market. Thrivemarket.com I love thrive Market. If you don't know what it is. Thrive Market is a membership based online grocery. For just $5 a month you get access to a curated selection of organic and non GMO brands, 90 plus dietary filters, weekly sales, free gifts, and the peace of mind that a thousand plus ingredients are already restricted on there one annual fee. Priceless peace of mind. I love Thrive Market number one. We love getting stuff brought to us. First of all, I like being able to order it and then it's on my porch. That's excellent. But Thrive Market, I love the stuff they have. I love the fact that you can do the quick replacements, you can say gluten free and it's all gluten free. It's great. So Sarah can eat all that stuff. I love their chips and I've said that before. The sea salt tortilla chips are crazy good. We order pickles from them too. Dill pickles, so good. This really good olive bread. We just got too. Excellent stuff. They have so many delicious, wonderful things here. You gotta go to Thrive Market. It's the best stuff here. And spring, that's the time it's natural to reset and restock. You know what I mean? So you should do it too because that's what I've been doing. The pre vetting is amazing. There's also an in app barcode scanner that finds a healthier swap for almost anything in your pantry as well, which is really, really cool. And the dietary filters are great. The $5 a month is so worth it to get everything brought to you. There's no ridiculous shipping fees or anything like that. It's awesome. And also member pricing. Up to 30% off the weekly sales, free gifts, price matching, free delivery on qualifying orders. It's all right there in the membership. I mean at $5 a month. It really pays for itself. Most people, you make your money back in the first two orders. Orders. No per order delivery fees, service charges, no tips to worry about. None of that stuff. It's that good. You're gonna love it. Simplify your life, everybody, and get the best food you can while doing it. That's all you can do. Ready to do your own spring reset? Join Thrive Market with our link thrivemarket.com Smalltown Murder for $20 off your first three orders, plus you'll get a free $60 gift.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

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[James Petregallo]

September 8, 2006. They indict him on murder charges. Thomas Mitchell. Now, pre trial stuff, there's some, there's some fun stuff here. He tries to suppress all the forensic evidence on the grounds that it would violate his sixth amendment confrontation rights because the guy who performed the autopsy 26 years ago is retired to Canada and he lives up in the middle of nowhere and he's old. And he says, I'm not coming here for a trial. I'm not doing it. I'm not going to the States. I'm not doing it. So he said, well, you should have to throw out all the physical evidence then, which no, that didn't work. Then he has an alternate suspect. And part of the pre trial thing is whether he's allowed to introduce an alternate suspect.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Mitchell does.

[James Petregallo]

Mitchell does. And it's not bad, I gotta tell you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Convincing.

[James Petregallo]

He offers proof that included the following facts regarding a male neighbor of the victim who I believe is probably Millet. Okay. They don't say he Wore A size 10 shoe, same size shoe as Mitchell. The neighbor lived down the street. A woman who knew the neighbor was prepared to testify that he owned a pair of shoes similar to the shoes obtained from Mitchell's residence and that the sole design may have resembled the design of the soles on those shoes. Because this is a common shoe. It's not like Richard Ramirez and The evil where they had one pair of black Avias sold in the entire western United States. You know, that's a different story. This is kind of a.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is a Wolverine. It's a Shields shoe that fucking the Northeast wears. They have like seven types of shoes. Everybody has the same ones.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they have snow shoes and these shoes you wear in the rain. She also saw the neighbor wearing the shoes only once on a date near the murder. The neighbor had a beige jacket with a wool collar and sometimes wore a scarf. Remember, the postal worker saw that a woman saw the neighbor in a suede camel colored coat that she never saw again after the murder. A woman had been beaten up by the neighbor in the past and this woman thought he was very violent. The neighbor owned a two tone green automobile. The neighbor met Judith at a store where he once worked and said she was, quote, nothing but a slut. What? A young married mother with a baby. She was a huge just cat.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And all around town, ridiculous, bizarre choice of words.

[James Petregallo]

Right then Judith saw a man, or I'm sorry, Thomas. The husband, Ted. He saw a man working on his car outside her window two days before the murder and told a guest who was visiting her that the man was a friend of her husband's who lived down the road. The neighbor's alibi, that he was at the unemployment office and at a restaurant didn't check out. The neighbor went to the restaurant after an employee was interviewed by the police and said, you saw me here that day, didn't you? Okay. After the murder, the neighbor was nervous and fidgety. He frequently spoke about the murder. The neighbor was having trouble with his car around the time of the murder and some damage to the front of the car was observed five days after the murder. The mail carrier who observed a car driven into the ditch that morning did not testify to having observed whether the car was damaged in any way, though the neighbor's features were similar to those depicted in the composite drawing. The mail carrier also stated when viewing a photograph of the neighbor, number seven seems to have an unusually mean look. I would like to see him in a lineup with a camel coat. I'd like to see him in that. You know what I'd like to see him in? A nice pair of brown loafers. Why don't you put those on him? What the fuck?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like to see him in black lace. Can you do that to him?

[James Petregallo]

I'd like to see how he looks in a little negligee. Just a little black lacy number. What do you think? Put it on him. The neighbor Had a fight with a. I wonder why. Yeah, the neighbor had a fight with a girlfriend who was Judith's best friend. And Judith took her friend's side in the dispute. And by the way, in the 2006 report, the latent fingerprint examiner was not able to rule out the neighbor as a source of certain fingerprints.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, no.

[James Petregallo]

After considering this, the judge excludes all of this. Not allowed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Not allowed. It's just confusing. They say now, June 2009 is the trial. It has moved to Franklin county because of publicity. Obviously. There's a sergeant here who testified about seeing the olive green 73 Thunderbird with the tan top, chrome grill, maroon primer along one side, operated by Mitchell, heading north out of Portland that morning. The mail carrier, they bring her in there and they're talking about that. Talking about the Thunderbird. Maroon Thunderbird with a tan top and chrome grill. The prosecutor says that, that the description matches Mitchell's appearance. Mitchell was not unknown to the flags. He had come over before. He'd been kind of pissy, a little bit upset. But being a little annoyed two years earlier is tough to say. Motive, it's pretty well fair game. Yeah, it's just he knew where a woman was in the house alone, basically, is what it was. So they said at that point. They said, despite these Maine State Police detectives early interest in Thomas Mitchell, which culminated in a search of his home, the case went cold in 84. And the prosecutor said at that point the investigation into the death of Judy Flagg basically stopped.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dang it.

[James Petregallo]

They said the evidence will show that Judith Flagg fought for her life and her baby's life, which she did because she had defensive wounds on her. She was fighting and she's a field hockey chick. She's gonna fight.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's capable.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she's capable. If you give her a little stick, you're fucked. She'd have beat your ass with that thing, probably. Now, the defense here, they gave the opening statement. They said there's no dispute to the timeline of the murder. However, the evidence used by the state, they said it's been stored for decades. And this was taken prior to modern day evidentiary procedures. So who knows what they did with it. They could have stuck it up their ass, you know, twirled it around, brought it out. We don't know. He said there's no eyewitnesses to this crime. Because of that, the state's case is entirely made up of circumstantial evidence. Oh, and DNA. Stupid. That's the other thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, there is that. Yeah, but also conjecture.

[James Petregallo]

A lot of conjecture. He pointed out that there's as many as 15 people had been inside and outside the Flagg residence before the police had arrived. The police said 50. I don't know if somebody misheard 15 for 50 or what. But as Ted Flagg called his family first, they said the footprints were broken. They were reconstructed. They're not perfect. The fingerprints taken inside the home, none of them were ever proven to come from Mitchell. And they say some to this day, are unidentified. Could be anybody. So they said his client, who intended to testify, had stayed at his father's home years earlier in the baby's room, where police would later determine a struggle had occurred. Now, they say Mitchell suffered an injury which resulted in him bleeding profusely years earlier in that room. So that's where his blood came from. He said, you heard me say earlier that justice delayed is justice denied. He said. And that's true when one considers what the Flag family gone through. But Mr. Mitchell has been inconvenienced by this delay. Poor guy's been. He's been in prison since 1985.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The guy's having a tough go.

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing. When they indicted him, by the way, he was five days from being released from prison. They're like, nope.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. Asshole, you're back. And he was in there for 20 years. I mean, he was five days from being released. They said Mr. Mitchell has been inconvenienced. The people he was living with, his mother and aunt, are now deceased. And they said, so they can't testify for him and tell you where he was. They say three pubic hairs were found on the outside of her clothing. Those hairs, examined at a microscopic level in 83, were determined not to have come from either of the flags. However, they were also to be shown to be incompatible with Mitchell. Well, let's run some DNA on those and we'll find out. What do you say?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Give that a run. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So he testifies?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

He does. He does it. He took the stand. He said, I was nowhere near Fayette that morning. Didn't happen. Spent the day with my aunt in South Portland. They said, well, how'd your blood get in there? He said he injured himself and bled on the carpet in the house when his father owned it. He said that his father had cleaned the blood stain with bleach.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I was there for a very long time before. My DNA's all over that house.

[James Petregallo]

It's all over now. The problem is Ted and the realtor who listed the house who looks it over meticulously, said that there was no stain or bleach mark on the carpet when the Flags bought the house. So that didn't happen. Mitchell's stepmother testified that she had no recollection of him injuring himself in the house when she owned it. Also, in closing, the prosecutor said, that man, this defendant, him, committed a crime so horrible that it must be every woman's nightmare. Yeah. I would say being alone in your house with your baby and having somebody come in and rape and murder you, that's a nightmare. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And leaving my corpse for my kid

[James Petregallo]

to jungle gym on, to crawl on. That's nice. He said that Judith Flagg fought for her life as she was stabbed in the chest, stomach, and back. And he said, now, more than 26 years later, the evidence speaks for Judy and Chad Flagg through the application of modern DNA technology. The evidence speaks. Speaks for them, and it speaks to you. Okay. The defense, totally different thing. They said, quote, in this case, the long search for truth has simply been subordinated by the pressure to solve this cold case. Now, as 20 years go by, there's less pressure, actually, to solve the cold case. That's the thing. There was a lot of pressure in 1983. There's not. So this is just. They found evidence that matched.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's a box in a room somewhere. That's the case. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They said that the state failed to identify or investigate Tom's alibi. And they said that his aunt could have been interviewed in 1983 about his alibi, which she was, they said. But she can't testify because she's dead. She died in, like, 2,000, I think.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, no.

[James Petregallo]

So this goes to the jury, and this is 2009. The trial takes place. So people are six years later, and they're well aware of DNA by now. This isn't like. This isn't like the OJ Jury, where they was kind of new or whatever. This is. This is a. You know, they expect it. They know it. They've seen. CSI has been on for 10 fucking years. So they get it. An hour and a half of deliberations, and they find him guilty of intentional and knowing murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

After the verdict, two dozen relatives of the Flags. When the prosecutor walked out, they gave him, like, a standing ovation in the courtroom for doing it. Outside the court, Judith Flagg's mother, Pauline, said, the community is safe again. That's good. That's nice. And they said they've never let. They were thankful to the investigators. They, quote, never let this go. Which even According to the prosecutor, they stopped investigating in 1984.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They let it go on.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they're being very nice, we'll put it that way. This is a very nice group of people, this family. They're trying to be polite. They also said that they were told long ago that Mitchell was a suspect. They said, Mr. Mitchell's been in jail for a number of years, so we know where he's been now. He's facing much more. This is not so much closure for us. If he were out of jail, it would happen again. During sentencing, they bring up that this is the third time he's been convicted of attacking a woman and he's been acquitted and, you know, charges dropped before. So this is not good. And with all that being said, judge says you, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole. Eat dicks. Dick eating lines that way, asshole.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No mas.

[James Petregallo]

Freedom no mas. You're here forever. Bet in 85 you never thought you were never getting out. But here we are.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Got him.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck off. In 2010, he appeals based on the alternate suspect. Should the alternate suspect have been excluded? That's a big deal. It's a lot of Rule 701 shit that I don't have time to get into that, but I'd love to get into that because I love legal shit like that. It's very interesting. But anyway, there is a dissenting opinion in it that says that they should have allowed in the alternate suspect evidence. Basically what the main fucking thrust of this is. Hey, you could have allowed in all the alternate suspects you want. None of their fucking DNA was in there and his was. His sperm was on a one year old's sleeve.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a problem.

[James Petregallo]

Explain that, asshole. You know what I mean? Some big problem. Did you leave a whole sperm vat behind when you moved out too? I bled on the carpet once. Oh, and that's my sperm vat in the garage also. I have. It's about 12 gallons I keep.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It stays spreadable.

[James Petregallo]

It's always. It stays very. I keep a lid on it. So it stays. You know how it goes there. So that's how that goes. That appeal is denied though. 2018, he appeals again. Lost a bid to start a process that could have gotten him a new trial based on errors in the FBI data used for DNA calculations. So he's saying it's not actually 1 in 69,000,000,000,000. The calculations were off. Okay, but the DNA still matches you. It's just maybe. Maybe it's 1 in 20 billion instead of 1 in 69 quadrillion.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Much less imposing number.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And they say, nah, you're good. Fuck off. Hang in there. He's still in prison, He's a bad guy, and he's still there. So there you go, everybody. That is Fayette, Maine, and just a goddamn mess of a case.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Does he still have appeals left? Is he still trying?

[James Petregallo]

From what I saw, the last one I saw was 2018.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know if he's content now.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know if he's loading up for another one or if he. If he has nothing to appeal on anymore. I'm not sure what it is, but he's going through the motions here, so.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Crazy fucking story. And a lot of credit, by the way, to the. To the family there. The flags, you know, and the Dion's and all those people, they were. Christ, they were patient. And then they weren't even shitty about it. They were like. They never stopped working hard, rather than going, we're all lucky this happened because you guys have dropped the fucking ball completely.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And we ran through the crime scene a lot, so we apologize for that.

[James Petregallo]

That's us. Yeah, but we didn't know. We hadn't seen CSI yet. We didn't know. So there you go, everybody. If you like that show or like any of the shows we put out, do us a favor. Head to whatever app you are listening on or Netflix or anything, and give five stars or thumbs up or whatever the fuck it is. Wherever it is, it helps a lot. We don't know why. Head over to shutupandgivemerder.com where you get tickets for live shows.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tickets.

[James Petregallo]

Tons of merchandise there as well. Everything from skateboards to coffee cups. But get your tickets for. If you're listening to this in the first 36 hours, it comes out or so, you can still get tickets to Denver, May 2, Saturday night. Get in there and get those tickets. Or head over to Royal Oak, Michigan on May 30, where there's a few tickets left for that, but that one is going fast. So get in there and do that because it's almost gone. Buffalo, sold out. Then in September on the 18th, Milwaukee, 19th, Minneapolis. Then beyond in October and November, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown, Boston. Get your asses in there. Come see a show, come see us. Shutupandgivemerder.com is where you do that. Follow on social media. We are Smalltown Murder on Instagram, Smalltown Pod on Facebook. You certainly want Patreon. What are we doing here? Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody, just $5 a month or above. You get everything we put out. I'm talking about first of all, as soon as you subscribe, whole huge hundreds of episodes, deep back catalog of bonus stuff you've never heard before. Almost 400 episodes. New ones every other week, including this week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And how much do they get?

[Jimmy Wissman]

You get it all.

[James Petregallo]

You get it all and it is a goddamn value. I'll tell you, other people have raised their stuff. We say, hell no. Five bucks this week. What you're gonna get for crime and sports, we're gonna talk about do personal ads. These are newspaper personal ads from the 80s, 90s and 2000s of people looking for love. And it's hilarious what they're looking for. Can't wait. Then for small town murder. It's up to you. It's your choice. It's either gonna be Internet salad, where we just go around the Internet and find all the crazy stuff that's going on, or that new FLDS documentary. The name is escaping me, but it's the new one. We're gonna put the vote up there on social media. Or Patreon somewhere. False prophet. There you go. And yeah, so there's that. You pick, let us know. Either way, the next one will be the one not chosen, so enjoy that. So, yeah, patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show and you get every damn show. We put out ad free as well with that. So we think it's the best we can do for you. So sign up for that. If you want to follow us on social media, you can do that very easily. Shut upandgivemerder.com, which is completely redesigned, by the way, so check that out. All new and get in there, get some merch and tickets and come hang out with us and follow us and have all sorts of fun with all that shit and keep coming back next week. Either way. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bye.

[James Petregallo]

Hey everybody. Listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi, good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad for dates. Yes, come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets though, to your stupid opinions on 21 March, Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2. May 29, Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30. We have September 18 Milwaukee. September 19 Minneapolis. October 3 in Dallas. October 16 in San Jose. October 17 in Sacramento. November 13 in Tarrytown. November 14 in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun. Make some friends like crazy and make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and give me. Murder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

See you on the road.

[James Petregallo]

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