Behind The Murder Mask - Litchfield, Maine

Summary

Small Town Murder
Episode: "Behind The Murder Mask - Litchfield, Maine"
Release Date: July 11, 2025

---

Introduction

Timestamp: [01:16]

James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman welcome listeners to another intense episode of Small Town Murder Express. The hosts set the stage for a deep dive into a chilling murder case in the small town of Litchfield, Maine. They briefly mention their live shows and other podcast offerings, including Crime and Sports, highlighting their commitment to thorough research and their unique comedic perspective on dark topics.

---

Overview of Litchfield, Maine

Timestamp: [04:20]

James: "We're going somewhere we enjoy a great deal. We're going to Maine this week."

The hosts provide a comprehensive background on Litchfield, a rural town in South Central Maine, approximately 25 minutes outside Augusta. With a population of 3,587, the town boasts a median household income slightly above the national average and a median home cost of around $307,800. Originally named Smithfield Plantation, the town was renamed Litchfield to shed its oppressive connotations. The area's history includes community-driven initiatives, such as an 1860 town farm supporting the poor, reminiscent of modern Habitat for Humanity.

James: "In 1860, a town farm of 112 acres was bought on which to support the town poor. They said some guy made up the difference here and said, 'I'll pay for it.' So that was nice of them back then."

The town enjoys recreational activities like hiking and hosts the annual Blistered Fingers Family Bluegrass Festival, attracting thousands of music enthusiasts. The festival features a mix of national and local bands, emphasizing community and family-friendly entertainment.

---

The Hutchins Family Background

Timestamp: [12:30]

The episode delves into the tragic story of Kimberly Jo Hutchins:

• Birth and Education:

  • Born on June 11, 1970, in Rumford, Maine.
  • Graduated from Telstar High School and Becker College in 1990 with a degree in interior design.

• Personal Interests:

  • Passionate about interior design, art, and self-taught piano skills.

• Marriage and Family:

  • Married Alex Mironovas in 2003, moving to Massachusetts.
  • Their son, Lucas, was born in 2004. Diagnosed with mental health disorders and autism spectrum in early childhood, Lucas struggled socially and academically, leading to multiple school expulsions.

James: "Lucas is just this 15-year-old unsupervised kid in a new place."

In September 2017, Kimberly and Lucas relocate to Litchfield, Maine, in hopes of providing Lucas with a fresh environment and better support.

---

Lucas and His Friends

Timestamp: [33:54]

Introducing Lucas's close friends:

1. William Smith (15 years old):

   • Comes from a troubled background with an addicted mother.
   • Described as helpful and polite by neighbors.
   • Experienced a year living with his grandparents, attending a Christian school with positive outcomes.

2. Thomas Severance (TJ) (13 years old):

   • Estranged from his father, who had minimal contact.
   • Sentenced to juvenile detention for his role in the murder.

James: "Lucas... has no friends and everything like that."

---

Planning the Murder

Timestamp: [45:03]

Lucas, William, and TJ devise a plan to murder Kimberly:

• Initial Plot:

  • Will: Suggests killing Kimberly to steal her car for transportation.
  • Lucas: Agrees, stating, "I'm down with that."

• Methodology:

  • Attempted poisoning with crushed medication dissolved in wine failed due to visibility.
  • Shifted to strangulation and stabbing, planning to stage the scene as a home invasion or suicide.
  • Roles Assigned:
    • Lucas: Stabbing
    • Will: Strangulation
    • TJ: Lookout

James: "They assigned specific roles... to avoid leaving fingerprints."

The trio created graphic novels depicting violent scenarios, suggesting premeditation and fascination with murder.

---

The Murder Execution

Timestamp: [58:02]

On the night of April 21-22, 2018:

• Execution:

  • Lucas and William crept into Kimberly's bedroom wearing gloves and masks.
  • Strangulation and Stabbing:
    • They strangled Kimberly while she was unconscious.
    • James: "Lucas stabbed his mother repeatedly in the neck."

• Discovery:

  • Neighbors reported seeing three teenagers leaving the house in the morning.
  • The trio was apprehended driving Kimberly's car, despite none of them having a driver's license.

Detection: Upon arrival, detectives found Kimberly dead with multiple defensive wounds, suggesting she fought for her life.

---

Legal Proceedings and Sentencing

Timestamp: [65:01]

• Charges:

  • Lucas and William: Charged with intentional murder and criminal conspiracy to commit murder.
  • TJ: Charged with lesser involvement, pleaded guilty for a reduced sentence.

• Outcomes:

  • William Smith (15): Tried as an adult, sentenced to 28 years in prison.
    James: "You're gonna have to knock some ears off of that."

  • Lucas Minarovas (18): Also tried as an adult, sentenced to 33 years.
    Jimmy: "He's still only like 21, 22 years old."

  • Thomas Severance (TJ) (13): Tried as a juvenile, sentenced to time until age 21 at Long Creek Youth Development Center.

James: "The prosecutor said... we were gratified Mr. Smith finally agreed to take responsibility."

---

Impact on the Community and Family

Timestamp: [69:20]

• Family Grief:

  • Aunt Ben Beth: Expressed heartbreak over Kimberly's death and sorrow for Lucas. Ben Beth: "We love both Kimberly and Lucas with all our heart."

• Community Reaction:

  • Neighbors were shocked by the violence and the involvement of young teens.
  • Staff at juvenile detention noted the trio's troubling behavior, including chanting "murder gang" and making stabbing motions, influencing other detainees.

James: "This is how unsophisticated these kids are."

---

Conclusion

Timestamp: [77:25]

James and Jimmy reflect on the tragic case, emphasizing the devastating impact on the family and the community. They highlight the complexities of juvenile justice and the challenges of rehabilitation for troubled youth. The episode serves as a somber reminder of how deeply personal and societal issues can intertwine, leading to unimaginable outcomes.

James: "It is Litchfield, Maine, everybody. And a really fucking twisted story, man. Just gross and twisted and mean and shitty."

---

Notable Quotes

• James Pietragallo:
  [05:36] "So they did that."
  [12:06] "That's pretty much the whole town was an HOA."

• Jimmy Whisman:
  [07:01] "Love that."
  [29:22] "You're 55. Stop."

• James Pietragallo:
  [33:54] "So you could be dealing with this guy. You have no fucking idea that you're dealing with this guy."
  [77:32] "You know that deep in a hole where everyone thinks you're a piece of shit. That would be a dumb thing to do."

---

Final Thoughts

"Behind The Murder Mask - Litchfield, Maine" is a profound exploration of a dark chapter in a small town's history. James and Jimmy navigate the complexities of familial struggles, youth delinquency, and the harsh realities of the legal system, all while maintaining their signature blend of in-depth research and comedic commentary. This episode not only recounts a heinous crime but also invites listeners to ponder the societal and personal factors that contribute to such tragedies.

---

Disclaimer: The content discussed in this summary involves sensitive and graphic material related to a real-life murder case. Listener discretion is advised.

Transcript

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[James Petregallo]

Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yay and choo choo.

[James Petregallo]

Oh yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host, Jimmy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another insane edition of Small Town Murder Express. As you know, the regular episodes are crazy and long and the expresses are just as crazy and short. Ten pounds of murder in a two pound bag. And we have some really weird, twisted, creepy stuff this week as usual. We will get to that. But first, shutupandgivemerder.com is where you get all of your bonus. I'm sorry, all of your tickets, not your bonus. That's Patreon. We'll get to that. All of your tickets. Yeah, yeah. Get tickets to live shows is where you get there. There are a few left. We just released some holds so there's a few left for San Diego. Now I know a lot of people have been looking for those. There's. I might be a couple left in Grand Rapids. Not sure. Other than that Seattle, D.C. and Philly are the places where you can still get your tickets. We are excited for the fall for the live show. So come out and see us at a live show. It's a lot of fun. Get yourself some Patreon while you're at it too. Oh, patreon.com/crimeinsports which is the name of our other podcast that you should listen to is we're covering a serial killer right now, a multi part series. So if you like Small Town Murder, you will like that, trust me. So check that out. But patreon.com crimeinsports where you get all your bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're gonna get a lot. First of all, hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before, immediately available for binging upon subscription and then new episodes every other week. One Crime in Sports. One Small Town Murder. And how much do they get?

[Jimmy Whisman]

You get every bit.

[James Petregallo]

You get it all. This week we're going to talk about, for crime and sports, Jeff Alm, a football player with a wild ending. We were supposed to do it last time, but Jimmy was too ill. It would have killed him. So he would have been better than Jeff Alm. So we. For Small Town Murder, by popular demand, we were going to do something else, but we have been overwhelmed by requests for the poop cruise. So we're going to talk about the poop cruise and we're going to mix a little Titan submersible in there as well because it's all the ocean. Whatever. Yeah, it's all water. Let's get into that. Patreon.com crime and sports. And from now on, you also get Small Town Murder, Crime and Sports and your stupid opinions. All of our shows ad free.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You bet.

[James Petregallo]

With your subscription to Patreon, you can't beat it. Honestly, I don't know what else we could possibly give you. Come over your house, wash your dishes, mow your lawn. I don't know what we could give you. So do that. And you also get a shout out at the end of the show as well, where Jimmy will mess your name all up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You bet.

[James Petregallo]

So that said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we? We're going somewhere we enjoy a great deal. We're going to Maine this week. Yeah, yeah, Love Maine. This is in South Central Maine, though. No, not touching the water.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Portland.

[James Petregallo]

No, it's six.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, inland.

[James Petregallo]

Inland, yeah. It's Litchfield, Maine is where we're going here. Litchfield, South Central Maine. About 25 minutes outside of Augusta, Maine. That's where we're.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't even know where the fuck that is.

[James Petregallo]

There you go. Inland. Two and a half hours to Boston So a little too far to commute, too. You live in rural Maine is what this is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's where you're gonna be.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's about an hour and 40 to Lebanon, Maine. Our last Maine episode 567 was the number till Murder Do Us Part. That was wild. Where the guy kidnapped his wife and, like, trying to convince her and everybody was looking for her and thought she was dead and she was like in a hotel room being tortured. That was insane. This is in Kennebec county. Area code 207. Population here, 3587. So just a little rural central main town here. Median household income slightly above the national average. It is $71,691, about 2,000 over the average. Median home cost here, about 307,800 bucks. So not higher than the national average. Not too much lower. You know, kind of hanging in there. Little bit of history here. They. It was first called Smithfield Plantation.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

The name of the town. And they were like, well, that doesn't sound great. That sounds like we own people. So let's change it to Litchfield. That seems a little nicer. Right? So they did that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That sounds a little close to Leitchfield. And that's gross.

[James Petregallo]

That's gross too. But yeah. So they're going to try, though, Litchfield here, they built churches, they built everything like that. Basically they had town meetings in a guy's house until 1813. So pretty small timey stuff here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like a small HOA.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. That's pretty much the whole town was an HOA. In 1860, a town farm of 112 acres was bought on which to support the town poor. Oh, they had a farm that they grew stuff for poor people there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Back in the day, this was the original Habitat for humanity, pretty much 1860. So, yeah, they did that. That was very nice. It's interesting here, the annual expense for the town poor is $250 more than the proceeds of the farm. They said some guy made up the difference here and said, well, I'll pay for it. So that was nice of them back then. Reviews here, four stars. No complaints. Recreation is easy to access in this area. That's the whole review.

[Jimmy Whisman]

4 out of 5.

[James Petregallo]

4 out of 5. No complaints though, but didn't quite do it for me, apparently all the way. A lot of, like, hiking and outdoor stuff in this area.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Love that.

[James Petregallo]

That's fun. Four stars. I don't need any more public services. What is available is plenty for my needs. Someone trying to force more public services on you I don't need it. I don't need your public service. Keep your fire truck in the fucking garage. I don't need it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't want to hear it.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Three stars. There are very few violent crimes in this area. I have no concerns for my safety at any time. Vacant homes, camp thefts are one of the largest problems. Camp thefts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Camp theft.

[James Petregallo]

Someone done.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is that?

[James Petregallo]

Came in and stole my Weber grill. They I don't know what else. What?

[Jimmy Whisman]

My yeti.

[James Petregallo]

Somebody stole my tackle box. Now I'm in trouble. Not gonna be able to catch my dinner.

[Jimmy Whisman]

400 fucking dollars and people steal it.

[James Petregallo]

People are gonna steal it. Three stars. Very small rural town, limited shopping options. All mom and pop stores. That's nice. Residents must travel 20 minutes to find built up shopping areas with dining and box store choices.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How far?

[James Petregallo]

20 minutes. That's not very far. That's not far at all. 20 minutes is nothing. In Phoenix, everything is 20 minutes away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

40. Fucking 40.

[James Petregallo]

Well, 40. Yeah, that's true. 20 is close and 40 is normal. That's what it is like, oh, that's right down the street. That's 20 minutes. 40 is like, ah, it's just, you know, 30 miles away. Not a big deal. So things to do here. There is only one thing to do. Well, there's hiking. You can do hiking and stuff like that. But there's also the blistered event, the Blistered Fingers family bluegrass festival.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, they are playing so hard. So much they're blistering the fingers on the fucking banjo.

[James Petregallo]

Exploding with blisters. That's what's going on here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gross.

[James Petregallo]

They say that you can come check out some of the best bluegrass music around at one of New England's best family music events. The Blistered Fingers bluegrass festival got its start back in June of 91, and then they added a second festival in August for some reason. So now, twice a year, thousands of music lovers from all over the world come together to hear awesome banjos, fiddles, and those sweet high harmonies with a mix of national and local bands. Then, whether you're bringing a bus, an rv, a camper, a tent, or just coming for the day, we've got you covered. Come early, jam with new friends, kick back and make memories that will last a lifetime.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Come listen to the two scariest instruments.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, just together. Come listen to the cousins from the Righteous gemstones serenade you. Basically, that's what it is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And the guys from the lido deck of the Titanic.

[James Petregallo]

Sinner, you better get ready. Over and over. So who will be appearing? Rhonda Vincent and the Rage.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, national band. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Rhonda Vincent looks like every other country star. She's blonde hair, blue eyes. It just looks like every other one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You could interchangeable or a loose lace thing around her waist.

[James Petregallo]

Interchangeable. Yeah, interchangeable. The Gibson brothers.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know, they look like bankers. They're wearing suits and ties. But one guy has. And they have like short haircuts. But one guy has a banjo.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So I guess it's not Kurt and his brother.

[James Petregallo]

It's not. It's not Kirk, it's not Mel. It's nobody like that. Dan Paisley and the Southern Grass. Okay, the lead singer. The lead singer looks like an older Brian Posayn, which is not a compliment.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus God.

[James Petregallo]

Compliments for his looks. That's a shallow gene pool that's rough up after that. Nothing fancy. Okay, Nothing fancy. And they all look like the average age There is about 63. The Cody Norris show. Right? Show. I see a. The lead singer is dressed in like a crazy yellow cowboy outfit like Howdy Doody or some shit. But they have a stand up bass. There's a dude with a stand up bass and anybody with a stand up bass, I will listen, I'll give it a shot because I love the stand up bass. My favorite fucking sound. Dave Atkins and Mountain Soul.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, okay.

[James Petregallo]

The Hemingway brothers, right? They certainly look like brothers. They got the same terrible genetics, those two. The rock hearts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's always a heart. Something.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, a bunch of old guys. By the way, I have to show you the Hemingway brothers so you'll know what I mean. Look at these two. Hot fighting the women off with those guitars. They have to carry them just to fight the women off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It keeps their marriage together. Oh yeah, I forgot he plays guitar.

[James Petregallo]

Kata Din Valley Boys. Yeah, they're all 75 years old. Don't call yourself boys. Jesus Christ. The Seth Sawyer Band.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seth.

[James Petregallo]

Seth. Another stand up bass though, so I'm interested. They got an old lady and a stand up bass.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How fucking long is this festival?

[James Petregallo]

Backwoods road looks like a family gathering.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's like a terrible Phoenix open mic. There's so many people.

[James Petregallo]

So many. It's going till one in the morning, folks. Bear tracks. Which looks like a couple that just got their country club membership. That's a weird thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like the photo of two real estate. Husband and wife.

[James Petregallo]

Husband and wife team Bear tracks. Cedar Ridge. Another stand up base. Interested in that. And the Hosmer Mountain Boys. Again, a stand up base. So, okay, I'll check It out. That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. We got some bad stuff happening this week. All right. Let's talk about Kimberly Jo Hutchins. First, Kimberly Jo. J O middle name. She's born June 11, 1970. On June 12. Look at us. We're almost buddies. There close. Not in years, but in the date. She's born in Rumford, Maine, and she is the daughter of Arthur and Jeanette Hutchins. And she's got a brother and two sisters, from what I could gather here. That's what I gathered. She graduated from Telstar High School.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And then went on to Becker College in Worcester, Mass. And graduated in 1990 with a degree in interior design.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can get a degree in that, huh?

[James Petregallo]

Fuck, yeah. Yeah, you can actually. Yeah. Interior designer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Match that. Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, absolutely. You get discounts and stuff. It's nice. We get discounts from her. It's good stuff.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Fuck, yeah. They all have a code. She's real into design, and she wanted to. She just loved it. She likes art stuff, so she taught herself how to play the piano.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

She likes to paint. You know what I mean? Stuff like that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't have money in anything she's doing. But that's great.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, designing can be a lot of money. You can make a real good living in interior design. But she seems more into, like, the aesthetics and the art of the whole thing. In 2003, she got married to Alex Mironovas is his name. M I R O N O V A S. Where'd you find him? And probably Greece. It sounds like Crete maybe. I'm not sure. Yeah, in Massachusetts, though, because that's where they're gonna live. So she changes her name, too, and becomes Kimberly Minarovis. And in 2004, the next year, they welcome a son into the world. Here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hey, here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Lucas with a kid. They call him Lucas here. So, yeah, he's born in 2004. And Lucas is the best waiter. Late 2003. The best way to describe him is troubled from jump. Troubled from jump. Well, he's first diagnosed with mental health disorders when he's five years old.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is that?

[James Petregallo]

So we don't know exactly what kid. Some kind of mental health disorders at 5, which is definitely tough.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's fascinating. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Later on, too, they'll say that he's on the autism spectrum as well. In addition to having mental health disorders. That's not like they weren't confused for that. You know, it wasn't one or the Other. He's got both. So he's just. He's got a little bit of a difficulty connecting with others. And that is not just the autism. That is because he's also got some mental issues as well. Okay. Now, he spends a lot of his weekends with his grandmother, Jeanette, that's Kimberly's mom. And she said that he desperately wanted friends, but struggled to make them. Didn't have an easy time. She said later, he wasn't a leader. He was a follower. I think that he wanted friends so bad. He felt like he was labeled because he went to special schools, and he just wanted friends so bad that he would do anything to get friends.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That happens.

[James Petregallo]

There's a lot of kids like that, even if they don't go to a special school or they have no issues at all. Yeah, tons of kids struggle to make friends, and they don't know what to do. And. No, it's like one of the main things in life is to figure out how to connect with people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's hard, right? Those social cues are. That's. That's what teaches you how to function later.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. So in 2008, his parents get divorced here. Kimberly and Alex get a divorce. So he ends up spending his weekends with his dad. And his dad's a decent guy. They didn't get divorced because he was, like, beating the shit out of everybody in the house or anything like that. Just didn't work out. He kept up his financial duties and his parental duties and everything like that. Paid his child support, saw his kid every weekend and everything. In court records, he was described as a dedicated and concerned parent who paid $900 a month in child support and had weekend visitations with his son.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And what year was that?

[James Petregallo]

2008.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, okay.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, so that's fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a good number.

[James Petregallo]

That's not bad. And they said that, you know, he would go over his dad's house every weekend. Neighbors here in Ashland, Massachusetts, said they would see him playing basketball at his dad's house in the driveway all the time on the weekends. So, you know, they'd hear the basketball and knew that he was over there. Basically. Now he also. So that sounds like everything's going fine, but he has some problems, too. In Massachusetts, the neighbors start to see some weird shit going on with Lucas here. As he becomes a teenager, he starts to really kind of act out. Once he's like, 11, 12, he would damage properties in the neighborhood. This happened several different properties. He would shoplift from local stores.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

He sounds like a kid trying to get either attention or something, or he's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just a little vandal.

[James Petregallo]

We know, though. You remember those kids.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Their home life wasn't good. You know what I mean? That's what I mean. That's not great. And he also made, like, physical threats against the other kids and even adults.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, I didn't do that.

[James Petregallo]

No, I wasn't threatening adults at that age. Not even close to that. That's wild. One former neighbor where the family lived said that he would occasionally see Kimberly outside walking her dog, but see Lucas around all the time. And this neighbor said, quote, he was a little different. I know the family. I know the family. I don't want to say anything, but let's just say he was a little different. Now, she said he was never aggressive or anything like that toward him personally, this neighbor. But he said there was something unsettling about the boy, something brewing under there, under the surface here. Now, in school. Didn't do a good job in school at all. And has a hard time behaviorally in school, mainly. And I don't know if his behavioral shit is acting out because he's not doing well academically like some kids will do if they can't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It is frustrating.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they're frustrating. Can't do well, then they act out. So that happens. But he was apparently, according to. Later on, some people who knew them, they said that he was kicked out of every school system in Massachusetts. He would be repeatedly suspended and then finally expelled. They'd enroll him somewhere else. Same thing would happen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Just the way it was. He didn't even have, like, a grace period where he would be cool for a couple of months. He'd get there, get in trouble, start it up, start the cycle over again. He hadn't been to school and hadn't been enrolled as a student in Ashland, Massachusetts, where they were living until 2017, since the 2009, 2010 school year, which is when he would have been six or seven years old. So he was. For the next few years, he's either in special. Like a special private schools.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

Or not in school at all for certain periods as well. Well, they're trying to find him a school. He'll get kicked out of a school, and then they have to try to find a school that'll take him. So they. And they can't take him to public school because he's already been kicked out of there. So fuck, it's. What do you do with a kid like that? You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is the problem, Luke?

[James Petregallo]

That's tough. So he's having a hard time. And November or summer, September of 2017, his mom, Kimberly here, decides that it's time to sell her condo and move to Litchfield, Maine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gotta get out. Gotta get out of the city.

[James Petregallo]

It's about 180 miles away and it's more remote than where they're from. It's way more rural.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And she's thinking, pigeonhole yourself into having much fewer schools, too, to.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. But she thinks this is the weird part. She thinks it's somehow some like an environmental thing. Like. Yeah, if the kid was like, you know, smoking crack when he was 12 or something, then you go, okay, yeah, maybe if you move him to the middle of Maine, he won't be able to get crack and, you know, maybe he'll clean up or whatever the. But sure, having like deeper seated issues that turn into behavioral problems isn't going to. Geography is not going to change that at all. That's not a geographic. Most things can't be made better by geography. They can't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Most. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Unless your problem is, I live in Florida and I'm really hot or I live in Alaska and I'm really cold. Those can be solved by a change, but otherwise difficult.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. I live next to a steel factory.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Just spraying.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Ash and Dupont is hosing down my house every day.

[James Petregallo]

They do, they do. That's nice of them, though, to do that. They don't have to do that. They come by and it's a. They just dump water.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just washing the house.

[James Petregallo]

That's good. Yeah. I'd never seen their faces, you know, they're covered by those respirators and all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But they're all the same.

[James Petregallo]

I think it's pretty safe, though. I think it should be good. They say they're spraying it down with a chemical. I don't know what it is. It looks like water.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, it's clear.

[James Petregallo]

It's clear. So, I mean, it must be safe, right? So she hoped, fresh environment, new start. Maybe we can just kind of transplant this kid and he'll grow better from this soil. Possibly. So she obviously has the sole custody or primary custody of Lucas here. By the way, in her move to Maine. She's doing it for another reason too. She wants to switch careers. Oh, yes. She's 46. She's. She's kind of like she's not moving for some dude at this age. You know what I mean? You're a little smarter than that. By 46, where you're like, yeah, I'm not going anywhere, motherfucker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Fuck that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's 10 of you here.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. She wants to switch careers. She doesn't want to do interior design anymore. She wants to do hair now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So she's going to cosmetology school. Wow, that's a big switch. And usually, usually because my. I only know this because my family a lot of hair, you know what I mean? My grandfather owned a shop. His uncle, aunts and uncles all owned hair shops and everything like that. So you usually, you age out of cutting hair because you have to stand all day and it sucks. So by 46, you're like, I don't want to fucking stand. Stand up all day. Rather than the other way around. You'd move into interior design, it seems like for sure. Yeah, real weird. But that's what she wants to do. A classmate at cosmetology school remembered Kimberly talking some about Lucas. She said that she did talk to me about her son, like how he's threatened people before, stole money, had anger issues, broke his laptop, et cetera. So you sit down next to Kimberly and she's a real party at lunch. She asks you, I have two kids. Little boy, little girl. Yeah, no, the girl's fine. She goes, how about you? Well, you know, threatens people, steals money, broke his laptop.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Broke his laptop.

[James Petregallo]

Just because he's angry. So she's enrolled at the Evita Main Institute in Augusta to study cosmetology. By the way, the owner of the school, his name is Anthony Coco. I love this Anthony Coco co. Hey, Tony Coco. He described Kimberly as, quote, someone who always had a smile on her face, loved working on clients, loved making people feel good about themselves. All right. And she's older than most of the students because a lot of most of these kids are 22, they're young. So she's like the school mother figure basically. Sure as well. The same person, Sage Lockhart, who said about. Who said about the, you know, she talked to Lucas and about Lucas breaking shit and all that kind of thing. She said that. She said she was very sweet, caring, understanding woman. She was like the mom of the group and always had a smile on her face. She was outgoing, smart, and did amazing things at what. Did amazing at what she did at school. So. And it's weird because she'll like stay because people, they have like walk in clients at the school. It's like a discount. So she'll like stay late to work on the walk in clients. I don't know if she's trying to avoid Lucas or what, but they're just.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Making stacking as much money as possible or.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Trying to do that. You make some tips doing that. So now Lucas, after a few months of being here, still hadn't been enrolled in the local school district. Which few months. Few months. Which. See you got a 15 year old, you move. Yeah. You need to enroll them in something I would think. Right. 15 is not young enough to not be going. Not old enough to not be going to school. So the. That's so he's just got lots of time. Mom's at school.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And so he's just this 15 year old unsupervised kid in a new place.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Floating around in Maine.

[James Petregallo]

No structured activities. He doesn't know any other kids because he doesn't go to school. So he's just sitting at home watching tv, fucking around on the Internet. I mean what else do you do? I'm sure Joe Brown masturbate several thousand times a week. I mean otherwise you're 15, just soak in that house. If you have that kind of privacy and Internet access at that age. Can you imagine? Imagine when you were 15 if you had high speed Internet and no one was ever home. The amount of whack. And that would have gotten done. My God, absolutely.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I wouldn't have had enough jizz to accidentally get anybody pregnant.

[James Petregallo]

No. By 17, when you're jerking, it's just a ghost would come out, just fly away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It'd be a fun party trick to show people like come dust.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Poof. Just looks like powder. Like one of those old candy cigarettes. Like a cloud comes out like LeBron.

[Jimmy Whisman]

James in game seven.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So now his aunt said that both Kimberly and Alex both tried to get treatment for these mental problems he has. So it's not like they just ignored him and put him in a closet. They took him places constantly. But the aunt said, quote. But that failed. Despite his parents having done everything they could to help him. She said Lucas was in need of professional and medical attention. She said the steps my sister had taken revealed that she did everything she could as a mother to help her son get well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

It's just not working. Nothing is sticking with this kid. Not taken. So April of 2018, here Kimberly is about halfway through her cosmetology course. I don't know how long this course is, but it seems like it goes on. That's busy at the school. She participated in the Trashion show, which is mix trash and fashion together and you get trash in show.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was there. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Just weeks. This is, you know, she's been in there for a few weeks. And students model outfits made from recycled materials.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got it.

[James Petregallo]

So you make. It's garbage modeling, essentially.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. But I guess water bottle bras and.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, shows creativity. I guess you can turn skirt. I get bullshit into clothes. Lucas is still an issue though. Tony Coco said. He said, quote, I know she was afraid of him. She wouldn't talk about him that much. But when he did come up, she sounded scared. Oh, and another classmate said that she was. Kimberly was scared of her 15 year old son, Lucas. So really, that's not great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Now Lucas basically at some point in here, he enrolls. He's enrolled in a school and is kicked out very quickly. So that does not last long. So he's again kind of out on the street here. Now Kimberly wants to do something for him, something for this kid to try to help him because he has no friends and everything like that. But back home in Ashland, Massachusetts, he had two close friends and she wants to try to maybe bring them in for a week or something to hang out and just maybe that'll lift his spirits and make him not so shitty, basically. So these two friends are William Smith, old Will Smith here, who's 15, same age as Lucas. William's not had a good background either, shockingly enough. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Slapping folks.

[James Petregallo]

Well, the thing is, troubled kids hang out with troubled kids.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He's slapping folks in public is the problem.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, constantly.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Have you seen him try to rap lately? Oh, my God, it's so embarrassing.

[James Petregallo]

No, but I saw it in 1989 and it was embarrassing, so I can't imagine he's gotten any better at it. He came back 10 years later, still bad. Can't imagine 25 years would make it any better. Right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He literally rhymes. He rhymed stage with stage and then with stage.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, wow. You know what? He's ballsy. You got to give him that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's trying to do triple rhymes and they're all the same word.

[James Petregallo]

Well, no, that's not how rhymes work. That's not how rhymes work. Exactly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're 55. Stop.

[James Petregallo]

That's how chants work, not rhymes, stupid. Yeah, just stop rapping.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Knock it off.

[James Petregallo]

You don't need to rap. No, the. The moment fucking season two of Fresh Prince got picked up. You should have never picked up a fucking microphone again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Never again.

[James Petregallo]

You're like, I'm way better at this than that, so I should never do that again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shocking.

[James Petregallo]

I get the money grabs for Men in Black and all that shit. Make a soundtrack saw Wild Wild west bullshit. All that Crap.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dumb shit.

[James Petregallo]

But I mean those are soundtrack songs so nobody gives a fuck anyway. So. Anyway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So bad. He's got nothing left.

[James Petregallo]

Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you how to make your cat happy with Smalls.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Smalls.com Absolutely.

[James Petregallo]

I love my cat because she's crazy. She's fun and she's obsessed with the small stuff. Like yeah, especially all the food's great and things like that. But she likes to. She'll come down, she has her own little room. She'll creep down and she'll just go. She'll do this, go crazy until you go up there and give her this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Give me the Smalls.

[James Petregallo]

You gotta give her the Smalls this paste that they have that you put on their food. Oh my God. She goes nuts for it. Does circles around. Loves it so much. And you know, she's not asking me for much. She's just asking me for a good, a good meal, just like I like. That's all. Smalls. Yeah. You gotta try Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your own fridge. It's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. And I'll tell you, my cat won't eat anything else. She loves it. My cat loves the tuna flavored paste. It is her favorite thing that has ever come out on the market. Ever. Why not feed your cat kibble? Because your cat is descendant from. They would go for prey. That's what it is. And this is more to their needs and more what they want. They need fresh protein packed meals to be at their best. After switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements. That's a huge deal. They're so confident that your cat will love their product, you can try it risk free. That means they'll refund your money if your cat won't eat their food. Believe me, your cat will eat this for a limited time only because you are a Small Town Murder Listener, you get 60% off your first order of Smalls+ free shipping by using our code STM. That's 60% off. When you head to Smalls.com and use the promo code STM again, that's promo code STM for 60% off your first order plus free [e-mail] now back to the show. This show, Small Town Murder is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com Absolutely. We all have our share of Stress, work stress. Keeping track of ads to insert any of your podcasts. It's a lot. We understand. We understand what you're going through here. And take the time this summer. Take the time this summer to focus on your wellness. You can even do it. Small steps to manage these challenges and stresses of work. Because workplace stress is among the top causes of mental decline at this point, it's really, really tough. And take a walk. You can do things like that. But sometimes you just need therapy. That's what it is. It's what'll help you. And we are big proponents of therapy here. I thank therapy for keeping my partner alive and with me. And BetterHelp is the place to start. It's a really great place to start. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, served over 5 million people globally, has an App Store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on 1.7 million client reviews. And it's really convenient. You can join a session with your therapist at just the click of a button. Help fit you into a therapy. You know, you can fit it in your busy life. That's the thing. We're all busy and it's hard. And you can switch therapists at any time for no cost. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals who with a diverse variety of experience unwind from work. With Better Help, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Small Town Murder. That's BetterHelp H lp.com SmallTown Murder and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

William Smith here to avoid any more Will Smith jokes because y. It's pretty. It's pretty standard. He. Yeah, yeah, he's got a problem. His mom's a heroin addict.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's not good. So that's bad. He grew up with his mom being a complete addict and that really fucked him up good here. Sure, he's got all sorts of psychological development problems. He can be a nice kid. His grandfather said that William spent about a year living with him and his grandmother and he said that year went well. And William was enrolled in a Christian school near their home where he took a full course load and passed his grandparents helped him with his homework. Like he had a whole, like, idyllic little family life. Yeah, the grandfather said it went fine. Will is a loving, caring person, easy to get along with. We did outdoor stuff, a lot of hiking. Things went fine. We didn't have any problems at all. All think about his background. He can do this while he's in this environment. But he put it this way. In 2005, his father had to seek emergency custody of him after they said that the mother was injecting heroin in front of him and overdosed. And when they came to get him, there's a three year old sitting there or two and a half year old sitting there with an overdosed mother with a needle hanging out of her arm.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's not good.

[James Petregallo]

Not good. So dad tried to take the child and then they had a custody fight over that. Well, we'll talk about it. Didn't really have a custody fight, as we'll find out. So now, pretty easily, pretty handily, he wasn't really wanted, it didn't seem like by a lot of people here. So Gail Donnell, who is a woman who lives near William in his Ashland condominium development, which I think was the same one that Lucas lived in. I think that's how they knew each other. Described him as a helpful, polite kid. She said she remembered that he would take her trash out, carry her groceries inside for her if he saw her coming home, and even come out and help her put up Christmas lights for decorations. That's a nice kid. Now Thomas Severance is the other friend. He's 13 years old, so younger kid.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Two 15 year olds.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, goes by TJ. So we got TJ, Will and Lucas here. He attended the same school as Lucas and William before William. Lucas was kicked out and then moved away. He also came from a real fucked up background here. His father said later on that he never met his son ever. Never saw him, never laid eyes on him, even as a baby. And the mother reportedly wrote in court papers that she had no contact with the father since very early in her pregnancy. They had a short relationship. She got knocked up, he ran away. That was that pretty much apparently going by what she said.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Poor tj.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He said, I haven't seen my son, period. I pay child support and I don't even know what my son looks like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He could walk past him on the.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking street, not even know that. Oh my God, the food in his belly. He was paid for by him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He was paid for by him. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. So according to the superintendent of Ashland Public Schools, both William and Thomas were current students. So at least they can stay in a public school. To be kicked out of all the public schools is hard. I remember kids that were a menace and they didn't get kicked out of school. So yeah, yeah, you had to like set a fire to get kicked out of school. Literally at the school.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At the school, in the class, damaging the classroom and almost killing 32 kids. That's the way you're getting kicked out.

[James Petregallo]

The kid who stabbed the other kid like 45 times and he almost died.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, with a number two.

[James Petregallo]

No, he had two steak knives.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He brought steak knives.

[James Petregallo]

He brought two steak knives to school. And I. This was on the first day of school my senior year. Right outside the guidance counselor's office. He carved this fucking kid up. The kid almost died that got stabbed and the stabber ended up being killed in prison. So there you go.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus. This kid fist fought the principal.

[James Petregallo]

That'll see that in my school. I don't know if that would have got you thrown out. I really don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It only got him. I think he just got suspended.

[James Petregallo]

I don't think it would have got you thrown out. I feel like the school'd be half empty if that'll get you thrown out. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He ended up murdering, I think six people.

[James Petregallo]

There you go. That's what happens.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's what we should have known.

[James Petregallo]

It seems like that's a good sign. Fighting the principle.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seems like you feels like the writing was on the wall.

[James Petregallo]

Seems like it's not too far off of his baseline. Right. So they are both in school now. Mid April 2018. She's just had her trash and show Kimberly did she files a request for an adjustment in child support since she had full custody and was attending school full time. So she wants more money from dad. April 15, 2018. Lucas visits home here goes to Massachusetts and Gail Donald, that neighbor of William that would get help with her Christmas lights and groceries. She drove William and another friend to the commuter rail station in downtown Framingham to pick up Lucas and traveled to who had come from to Massachusetts on the train for a visit with the friends.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

She had never met Lucas before and she said they were talking about video games and stuff like that. Nothing particular stuck out in mind. He just looked like a normal 15 year old.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They discussed also William going back to Maine with Lucas for a visit and you know, things like that. And Lucas was just asking him what's been happening around town, how's this person that chick's tits get bigger still, you know, all that kind of the stuff you ask when you're 15, you know what I mean? All that crap. So the plan was though, for these two friends, TJ And Will to come back to Maine with Lucas after a couple days in Massachusetts and stay with him for a while. And that's what Kimberly wanted. Kimberly thought that it might alleviate the isolation he was experiencing. She told somebody. So April 20, 2018. Kimberly is at school, she's cutting hair for walk in customers when she gets an urgent call. Urgent, I mean, leave this person's head half cut and get you fuck over here. That's urgent. You know you're going to look ridiculous for a while, but it's okay. So the call was about. Lucas had built an illegal bonfire at their home.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What's an illegal bonfire?

[James Petregallo]

A giant bonfire in a neighborhood, in a residential neighborhood for apparently.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How big would that have to be?

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean, because people have bonfires outside all the fucking time. It's not a big deal. This was at 1482 Hallowell Road is the address that they live at. Thomas and William are both here as well. Visiting.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

So she had to rush home, leave her work behind, leave somebody with a half cut head of hair and deal with this shit. But she's used to doing this because this is kind of. She's gotten quite a few urgent calls about Lucas. I have a feeling you got to come pick Lucas up. Yeah. So then she goes home and that's that now. April 22, 2018. So two days later, at 2 o' clock in the morning, the main state police received multiple calls reporting a potential homicide at 1482 Hallowell Road in Litchfield.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

Multiple calls from different people. Oh, so we don't have the neighbors, we're not sure who called and they don't say who called. So the police arrive, a detective comes in here. Basically like they send a regular unit and then they bring in a detective and he said that they went into Kimberly's bedroom and they said her bedroom had red and brown stains on the sheet, comforter and frame of the bed, as well as on the rug. And a light switch, glass cleaner on the nightstand was sitting there and a kitchen knife, also with red and brown stains on it, which appeared to have been smeared or wiped off onto the bed. Kimberly is on the bed as well, covered in the same blood and very dead. So that's that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So yeah, that's a terrible scene. That's not a good scene to walk in on. Especially unexpected. So the medical examiner said she suffered multiple injuries indicating she had fought for her life as well. She had defensive wounds, they said she had stab wounds to her neck, wounds to her hand and wrist, contusions to her face, abrasions and scrapes on her neck, and had bleeding underneath her scalp from blunt Force injuries. This is killed multiple times over. Beaten, beaten, choked, stabbed, slashed, you name.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It, emptied of blood.

[James Petregallo]

It's fucking crazy. So they said that either strangulation or stabbing would have been the cause of death. Either or. Basically, at that point, you didn't even know. And also they found that the glass cleaner nearby looks like somebody tried to clean up some of the scene as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Somebody said that bottle of Windex ain't gonna do it.

[James Petregallo]

Isn't gonna do it. A bumbling attempt at a cleanup here. Yeah, I mean, when there's a corpse, the rest of it really doesn't matter. At that point they're gonna find out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they're gonna know.

[James Petregallo]

Now a nosy neighbor saunters over to the scene to talk to the cops to offer up some. Something. Oh, the neighbor said that his wife had seen three teenagers walking away from the house that morning. Earlier. Yeah, and he didn't know shit from whatever. He didn't know whatever was going on. But he said, I saw three teenagers walking out of that house. So they're gonna go look for Lucas because nobody else is there. Lucas isn't there, Will. T.J. nobody's there. It's an empty house. So that they go out looking around and they end up finding the three of them driving Kimberly's car. Oh, the oldest kid here is 15. No one has a driver's license, first of all. Can't do that. And they're driving in the middle of the night. And Will Smith is at the wheel here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petregallo]

He's at the wheel, you know. Yeah, yeah, I got so Willie style. Yeah, we'll do a little. Handle this. Don't you worry about it. So at the station, they're taken to the station where detectives interview them. And they said, yeah, we actually know what happened to Kimberly or mom either. Or they said an intruder had entered the house and killed her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, sure of that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's what they said. Intruder came in, they must have been there to see it. But they didn't get harmed. None of the. All three boys are unharmed. And then they decided to just go for a joyride afterwards, you clear your head, you know what I mean? Things can get cobwebby, you see, that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Kind of thing, you gotta forget what you saw.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, gotta forget that. So they're claiming that an unknown person broke in, killed Kimberly and left without harming them at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, that would have to be like, you know, an ex boyfriend or something like that would be the only one that would do that. But thing is, teenagers. Teenagers are pretty easily manipulated by adults.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pretty dumb.

[James Petregallo]

You know what they're doing? Yeah. Their brains are not developed yet at all. Especially a 13 year old's brain is really not developed yet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Man, are they dumb.

[James Petregallo]

So you sit him down with a homicide detective.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh huh.

[James Petregallo]

They're gonna get some shit out of him. And they do. They get TJ to crack.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

They get young Thomas to crack. And he said, he said, okay, fine. He said, quote, Will was like, I have an idea. Maybe we should kill your mom.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Will, stop thinking.

[James Petregallo]

What the hell kind of idea is that?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

I have an idea. Okay. What? You want to go like shoot hoops or. We're gonna. I got an idea. We're gonna go shoot a BB gun. What are we doing? Let's kill your mom.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Big Max.

[James Petregallo]

No. Kill your mom. And Lucas said, I'm down with that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What? Luke?

[James Petregallo]

He's like, yeah, I'm down with that. That's cool. I don't know if Lucas was trying to seem cool at the time or what, but wow, that's ridiculous. So Lucas also cracks. William cracks as well. All three of them. They're in separate rooms singing like an Aries. Here Lucas admitted that he had, quote, done most of it. And William also participates to his inclusion in this as well. Then they end up finding, because they made it sound like it was just on a whim and they just went in and did it. But then they found illustrated panels like comics, basically like a graphic novel drawn by the boys, depicting violent scenes of killing the mother. Basically they drew up, they made a comic of let's kill your mom and then they did it. So they said that it showed sequences involving. Involving violence, some resembling the step by step instructions of our reenactments of the murder. Basically it's just that they made a comic of the murder. We don't know if they did that before or after they killed her, but either way they seem they did it. Yeah, yeah, they made a goddamn comic book out of it. That's insane. So what the fuck happened? Let's find out here from these kids here. Back to April 20, 2018. Kim comes home from school because of the fire. Now she came home from school and discovered this is what pissed her off. It wasn't the fire.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

She came home and found that the boys had stolen some of her weed.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Kim's cool.

[James Petregallo]

She has weed? Yeah, she's an artist. She likes to paint and fucking play piano and shit. And wants to do hair. Boys had stolen some of her weed. Not cool.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

So she said this Was like a violation of her trust. And this is. You bring your friends in here, and you guys are stealing. I'm nice enough to bring these fucking delinquents down here, and you guys are stealing from me. And she got very angry and said that she's not giving William and Thomas a ride back to Massachusetts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now you're figured out on your own.

[James Petregallo]

Which seems like the opposite of what you should. You should be. I'm driving them home right now. Right now. I'm not driving them home, because then they're okay, so they live with us. Now what are we doing?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm gonna make your life real inconvenient. You're gonna have to sit around here and watch me smoke my own weed.

[James Petregallo]

All three of you. Instead of. See, that's the thing. Like old. Back in the day, a kid would be caught smoking. So they make them smoke two packs in the closet. You sit down, you smoke that entire half ounce. You do it right? That's right. Roll it up. Yep, that's right. The concentrates, too. Put it on there. That's right. Come on. Gotta eat those edibles. So that's what she said. Now Lucas got all pissed off, and that's when William said, why don't we just kill her and take her car? That'll get us a ride.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Idiots, huh?

[James Petregallo]

What are you talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

How do you get there?

[James Petregallo]

That was, like, the first suggestion, too. There was no, like, you know, I'll call my mom, try to get a train ticket. He goes, well, we can just kill her and take the car. And Lucas said, yeah, I'm down with that. That's cool. So they spent the next few hours planning and premeditating this whole thing. And I'm talking doing experiments and everything. This is crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

They originally wanted to poison her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

They were gonna poison her, and when she died, they were gonna slit her wrists and say she killed herself. That was how they were gonna do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're so young. They've never heard of an autopsy.

[James Petregallo]

Never heard of an autopsy. They never heard of it if she's already dead. The blood, none of that shit. So anyway, so they said they're gonna crush up prescription pills, Lucas medication that he has, and they are gonna crush it all up and put enough of it in Kimberly's wine to kill her. This poor lady's got wine and weed, and she's just trying to have a nice night.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's just trying to relax.

[James Petregallo]

So they tested out the method first. Let's see how this works. So they crushed up all the pills. And they realized that if you put enough crushed pills to kill somebody, they don't dissolve in the wine. No, no. You just have a big thing of white powder sitting on the bottom of your wine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Or the very top, or either way.

[James Petregallo]

So they said the powder was very visible, making it obvious that this is not something you want to drink right now. So they're like, shit. So after the crushed medication failure here, that's when they sat around going, well, how should we kill her? And somebody said, I mean, we could strangle her and we could stab her. Like, you hold her and strangle her and I'll stab her. And we could that way. They were like, okay, cool, let's do that. So then they got all dressed up in their little costumes. Lucas wears a theatrical mask during the murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

He puts, like, something like that. Yeah, he puts a silly mask on. They all put on gloves also to avoid leaving fingerprints, Even though they've all been in the house for days.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Your fingerprints are all over this place.

[James Petregallo]

So they also though they wanted to, they thought this was cool. This is what you do when you murder. You put gloves on, you put a mask on, you make it all cool. They assign specific roles too. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Lucas is going to have the knife, and he's going to wear a mask and gloves to avoid leaving the evidence. And William will also wear gloves, and he'll assist with the strangulation. And TJ Is going to be the lookout. He's going to stay downstairs with the family dog. Pet the dog, make sure nobody comes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're too little.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you're 13. So they said they're gonna wait until Kimberly went to bed as well. So she was sleeping. They talked about weapons. They decided on a knife that would be best from the kitchen. So apparently, sometime before bed, though, his mother said, okay, fine, I'll take the kids back to Massachusetts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, she acquiesced.

[James Petregallo]

She cracked. She acquiesced to the whole thing. So at that point, Lucas considered, oh, we don't have to do it now. She's going to give you a ride home.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, everything's fine.

[James Petregallo]

But Will said, fuck, no. We've planned this. We're killing her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I got too much time involved.

[James Petregallo]

We spent like the last three hours. You have a mask and gloves. I had a whole plan. We drew a comic book. What are we doing here?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Experiments.

[James Petregallo]

Guys, this is wild. Yeah, we did feasibility fucking thing. So, hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Quince oh, quince.comqu I-n c e.com that's right.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Thrive Market.com Absolutely.

[James Petregallo]

You will thrive with Thrive Market because I and Jimmy as well, we've been trying to clean up kind of how we're eating and how we're shopping and all that kind of thing. We want healthier options, but also stuff that's not outrageously expensive. Sure. And that people actually want to eat too. That's the other thing. You gotta get your kids to eat this stuff. So we tried all the overpaid. Try the overpriced stuff that's, you know, oh, this is better and this is better and it's really nothing really. Sticks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do it?

[James Petregallo]

No. So we gave Thrive Market a try here and it's a game changer. You're gonna love Thrive Market, the same high quality brands that you love without compromising all of our standards here. So it's the number one destination. Thrive Market is for parents looking for healthy, stress free grocery shopping for the whole family. It's like your favorite health food store, but online and way more affordable and delicious. They have premium trusted brands like Primal Kitchen, Poppy, Gomarco, Simple Mills, all delivered to your door and up to 30% less of what you'd pay at a traditional store. There's filters you can filter for gluten free for paleo, keto, low sugar, vegan, whatever you want. They have the also the healthy swaps tool that you can find something and find the healthier version of it. It's amazing. And right now Thrive Market is running their biggest sale of the summer. Through July 23rd. You'll get 30% off your order and an extra 25% off thousands of summer essentials and a free $60 gift when you join. Take care of your health and your wallet. Thrive Market's biggest sale of the summer is officially on. For a limited time, go to thrivemarket.com smalltownurder to get 30% off your first order and an extra 25% off thousands of summer essentials plus plus a free $60 gift just for signing up. That's thrivemarket.com smalltownmurder to claim the offer before it's gone. Thrivemarket.com smalltownmurder now back to the show. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor out there. SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

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[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

So he was the one Will said that he wanted to go through with it no matter what. We planned it, we made a good plan. We're killing this bitch tonight. That's what it was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

So on the night of April 21, going into the early morning hours of the 22nd, she went to bed early. About 15 minutes after she went to bed, Lucas got the kitchen knife, put his mask and gloves on. William put his gloves on and they went up there. T.J. by the way, they said, had some reservations about this. The 13 year old as I fucking hope he would.

[Jimmy Whisman]

13 year old wasn't so much of a murderer today.

[James Petregallo]

Strange. A premeditated murderer too, really planning it out. So he stayed with the dog. So the two boys crept upstairs where Kim was in her bed. They both began strangling her. They both tried to strangle her. Now apparently William had said that he stepped in to help strangle Kimberly after Lucas had called for his help. Because Lucas had stopped after a few seconds because he was having a hard time going through it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It was hard, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And the reason is, is because she was calling out for Lucas for help while Lucas was strangling her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, she didn't know.

[James Petregallo]

She had no. He had a fucking mask on. She didn't know who it was so she thought somebody bum rushed her. She woke up and had somebody strangling her. So she's fighting and screaming, lucas, Lucas, help me. Yeah, and it's him strangling her, which is horrifying. And the medical examiner said that during the duration of the strangulation, she said she doubted someone would die as a result of a strangulation causing an obstruction in the trachea after only 5, 10, or 15 seconds. And that if a second person were involved in a more extended period of strangulation following the first shorter period, it would seem more likely that that more extended period of strangulation caused her death. Wow. So they're saying they don't know whether she got stabbed to death or strangled to death. But if it's stabbed to death, it's probably Lucas. And if it's strangled to death, it's probably William. So back to the killing anyway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

Lucas then stabbed his mother repeatedly in the neck. And they were beating her as well, Punching her, Horrifying. Lucas stabbed his mother repeatedly in the neck. And the medical examiner said that the concurrent cause of death was both of those things. They said Lucas stabbed her in the throat and held his hand over her mouth, causing her to lose consciousness. As she laid unconscious, he stabbed her multiple more times. That's why this room is such a fucking mess. And then the cops arrive, they pull them over, they say, oh, some guy broke in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. So the charges against them, obviously, Lucas and William are charged with intentional or knowing murder and criminal conspiracy to commit. Commit Myrtle. You're gonna commit Myrtle. Everybody to commit murder. And TJ because he had less of a participation. According to everybody, at least this is one thing. All three boys were very honest and had the same story. Nobody tried to blame somebody else, which is shocking, honestly. Yeah, nobody tries. That was all Lucas.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. They're too young for self preservation.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. But for like, kids who have been in trouble a lot, you'd think they would learn how to lie their way out of it. You know what I mean? By now, it's odd, but they weren't that sophisticated yet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They just. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which is lucky for us.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They take punishment very well.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's just lucky for us as a society. Also, kids are under the impression that if you tell the truth, then good things will happen and just admit it. They don't realize that this is gonna be decades of a truth that they're talking about right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is gonna ruin the world tour.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, exactly. This is gonna ruin the whole tour. So they intentionally. That's what they get charged with. And he's charged with criminal conspiracy to commit murder. They're detained in the Long Creek Youth Development Center. More on that. Because you think they're gonna stay quiet in there and be cool?

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck no. They're not hell no. So yeah, they're trying to decide whether they will be tried as juveniles or adults at this point too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

I mean you can make the argument with the two 15 year olds, but it's real hard to say a 13 year old's an adult. There's 13 year olds. Well, there's 13 year olds that believe in Santa Claus. They're not an adult. There's no 13 year old on earth that is sophisticated enough to understand what 40 years is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They just. And the nuance of the criminal court system, it's impossible.

[James Petregallo]

It's just fucking impossible. So that's just silly. So I would say the 13 year old, in my view, that's how that goes. But the two 15 year olds, they did pretty bad shit. That's rock. But they're still 15. That's the thing we have. Yeah, but you still have ages and laws that go into effect for like 18s. An adult, like if you're 16, you can drive, but you can't go, I'm 12, but I'm really mature. Give me a license. And they'll give them. They don't give it to you still, like you have to be 16. But if you do bad, they can make you older somehow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And you can't be 16 and just go to the army and say, gun, I'm going.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. So that's the thing is like you can, you can down age somebody if it, you can make them older if it helps you, but you can't make them older if it helps them. So that's kind of weird. Anyway, so Gail Donnell, remember the neighbor who drove them to the train station and back there and said that they talked about video games. Gail Donnell she said the last thing Lucas said to me, meaning from that day with the ride, thank you so much for the ride. I mean, what kind of a kid who has manners like that does such a thing, right? He has manners. How could he kill his mother?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He said thank you, please and thank you.

[James Petregallo]

Come on. I don't get it. And that's how easy it is for kids to fool adults like you can Eddie Haskell the fuck out of anybody. Just say thank you. And they're like, what a sweet boy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What a good boy.

[James Petregallo]

Another neighbor said he was a little different. I know the family's going through a tragedy, so I don't want to say anything little different. Same thing as the other guy said. Now here is where they really, really go off the fucking deep end.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

While in jail here in juvie jail here at the Long Creek facility staff members all testify later that all three boys together while detained chanted, murder gang. Whoa, murder gang. Murder gang. They would chant, what the hell? They also chanted MG when they were feeling lazy, which is murder gang there. On multiple occasions. And while they would chant, murder gang, murder gang, they would make stabbing motions. What, like psycho style? While chanting, murder gang. Murder gang. What the fuck are you talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

This is how unsophisticated these kids are.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

No adult murderers would do this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, I mean, there's been a few that, like in court, they try to make a show.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

People. But this is like, this is. What is that? Is that to keep people away from them.

[James Petregallo]

They're in juvie, though. It's like a bunch of other kids. I don't know. And you're in, like rural Maine. I can't imagine it's that. That fucking hard, you know what I'm saying? West Baltimore or something like. It's probably. They're probably. And I would assume you'd all be. There's probably not that many child murderers in there. You'd be terrified of the three kids who just carved a lady up, I would think.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So they'd make the stabbing motions. A guy named Matt Finley who worked there at the place, he was a worker in the unit where they were held at Logan Creek. He said that every time they do it, I tell them to stop, but they'd continue their behavior repeatedly. They wouldn't fucking listen to anything. Yeah, they wouldn't listen there either. So the attorney general said that they documented these incidents, noting that the trio of boys were reported by Long Creek staff to have chanted the murder gang term and also chanted mg, the initials of that same term, on multiple occasions, at least one of which was documented in a staff report. And they said that the fucked up thing is the Matt Finley guy said rather than everybody looking at them and kind of ostracizing them, the other kids picked up on it and got into it and they thought it was cool. So after hearing them chant it, they started chanting it as well. So you'd have a whole cell block of people yelling murder gang. While making stabbing motions. Children. I'm sorry? Children, not people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And now you have adults that are in charge to watch them going, do they have things that are. Are they all gonna murder us?

[James Petregallo]

I think they're planning something, I would say so. They said it was. The behavior was spreading and influencing these other fucked up kids that are in here too. Now in the juvenile system by the Way adults are juveniles here. The boys would be released at age 21, regardless of anything. You're out of the system. If tried as adults, they could get life sentences. Big difference between 21 and forever. The prosecutor said the brutality of the crime, the level of premeditation, and their behavior after the murder. Not even remorseful. They're chanting murder gang, for fuck's sake. All pointed toward adult prosecution. Now, the defense attorney said that their youth, their troubled backgrounds. This kid's mother's a junkie, this one's. They've had problems. And their potential for rehabilitation because of their age made them. Juvenile system be more appropriate. Probably. So it's decided. Lucas and William will be tried as adults.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And Thomas will be tried as a juvenile. So that's how they're gonna do it. Now they all decide to plead guilty?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

All three.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We all agree.

[James Petregallo]

What are you gonna do? Yeah, we all admitted it. And for Thomas, what's the difference? 21, that's. Who cares? That's nothing. So they all agree to plead guilty. Lucas's defense attorney said, because they had to admit everything first, they were going to steal the car and drive themselves to Massachusetts. But they disregarded that because she would be able to find her car and they would get caught. So originally they were just gonna steal the car. And then Will said, well, why don't we just stab her?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, we'll get caught.

[James Petregallo]

Well, not if we kill her. Then we won't get caught. People always get away with murder, but never auto theft.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, there's cops.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck, yeah. Shit. Damn it. Forgot about them. So the lawyer says, then they come up with this plan that they will strangle and stab her and stage it to look like a suicide or a home invasion. And she got killed in that. It was Mr. Smith who was the ringleader. He was the one who wanted to go through with it no matter what. Lucas, by the way, right before he went to Massachusetts on 15 April, he had been kicked out of school in Maine. And she said that this lawyer said Kimberly did everything she could do. If she hadn't gone down to get Smith and severance, I don't think this would have ever happened. You can't blame her. She was trying to do something nice. Lucas was isolated. He had nothing going on in his life. That's what it is. She tried to do something sweet. Maybe this will cheer him up and make him more receptive and whatever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And instead imagine being. Imagine being TJ's dad and being like, opening up the newspaper and then going, oh, that's what he looks like.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's true. The interview with him saying, I've never seen my son and I pay child support. That was from after they were arrested. And he goes, he didn't even know he was arrested until the press called him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

And told him. He goes, I didn't even know he was. What are you fucking talking. My kid killed somebody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, Jesus, I don't even know what he looks like.

[James Petregallo]

Do I still have to pay child support?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, that would be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Feel like the state's got it now, right?

[James Petregallo]

Probably.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We got you.

[James Petregallo]

So Thomas, the youngest here, tj, he is going to be sentenced first.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And his attorney said that he's in seventh grade and he's completely distraught over what happened. He said at this point he needs to work through it. He's 13 years old and someone died in the home where he was boy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He also participated in drawing murder comics about it and fucking, you know, helping cover it up. So I don't know about that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's putting thought bubbles on it.

[James Petregallo]

No shit. So the judge says, you, young man, you child may fuck off. Long Creek Youth Development center until the age of 21.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my.

[James Petregallo]

He's sent away now. William here, he gets sentenced and William is by all accounts the ringleader. And the judge called him the prime mover.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

That's not good. So there's a shrink here, there's a psychiatrist or psychologist that's talking about this, saying that they said the trio could have been joking and they didn't think it was significant at the time. And maybe that's what happened. It went from a joke and it's not as cold blooded as you're making it out to be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's the least funny joke ever.

[James Petregallo]

And then they said, well, what about the murder gang thing?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Oh, right.

[James Petregallo]

What about that? And they said, well, they were probably fucking around, basically. They're just.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They just leaned into the joke.

[James Petregallo]

This is being kids at that point, joking around. And the prosecutors said, quote, well, they were actually. Weren't they actually a murder gang?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they did. Yeah, they were that. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they went, well, I mean, they did murder in a. In a group. So I technically, yeah, blah, blah, blah. The prosecution said, we're gratified Mr. Smith finally agreed to take responsibility for his role in the murder of Kimberly. We wish for the sake of the family, he had done it before our attempt to have him held responsible as an adult. But even now we're glad the family won't have to endure a trial for Mr. Smith's role in the murder of Kimberly. So they said basically if he would have done this earlier, showed some remorse, they might have tried him as a fucking child.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Now the judge writes that William was the prime mover in the murder plot and the ringleader in the murder of Kimberly. The judge found he made the initial suggestion and then led the attempted cover up afterwards as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

They also acknowledged that psychologists had testified that William posed less of a risk to the public than many juvenile offenders and that there was some realistic possibility of rehabilitation here. So he sentences him to. You little shitbag. They fuck off. 28 years in prison for William.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's good, but that's a lot crazy.

[James Petregallo]

That's almost twice as many years as he's been alive though. Yeah, yeah, for a 15 year old, that's a lot. You know what I mean? But you know, if the guy was 36, you'd go, all right, yeah, fuck you, you got off easy. But for a 15 year old, that's got to seem daunting, which, I mean it should. You stab the lady and choked her out, what are you gonna do? So then, December of 2019, Lucas is sentenced and for victim impact statements, his aunt Ben Beth, which is his mom's sister, wrote a victim statement. She said, one thing is clear. We love both Kimberly and Lucas with all our heart. Saying the family's been torn apart by this and she's trying to maintain love for both of them. And it was such a tragedy and it's been so hard on the family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy.

[James Petregallo]

But she wasn't like that kid. We don't want him around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We still love him.

[James Petregallo]

We still love him. It's horrible. He's had problems and everything like that. So the judge wrote that the boys were methodical during the planning and researched how to best accomplish their goal in killing Kim. He said Kimberly suffered because she was conscious and aware of what was happening to her in the brutal murder. You dickhead may fuck off. 33 years in prison for him. So seems odd that the ringleader. The ringleader got less, got less than this kid. Yeah, seems odd, but I guess it's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Because it's your mom.

[James Petregallo]

I guess, yeah, it would have to be. So William Smith is currently incarcerated in the main state prison system. And he served his time in the Long Creek until he turned 18 and then he was transferred to the prison system. He's gonna serve that sentence if he serves the full term without parole, he'll be released when he's 43 in 2047. However, Maine has a decent parole system, so he may be eligible for an earlier release. They get good time for behavior and rehabilitation, stuff that they do and stuff like that. So he can knock some ears off of that. Possibly. Very likely. Now, Lucas did the same thing. He turned 18, and then they transferred him to the main state prison. And if he serves a full term, he'll be released when he's 48 in 2052.

[Jimmy Whisman]

God damn.

[James Petregallo]

He's still.

[Jimmy Whisman]

When you say the year, it sounds way worse.

[James Petregallo]

It sounds insane, right? Yeah, it's fucking crazy. And this is like, Christ, the kid is still only like 21, 22 years old, man. That's crazy. Now, the additional five years compared to Smith's sentence reflects his role as the one who actually stabbed his mother and the fact that he was her son. So he should have had some. A little more, you know, a little more affection for her than that. So they said, the court, the judge said he found that betrayal, quote, particularly heinous, which is bad. Judge is sentencing you. His family still supports him. His grandmother Jeanette said, quote, we've lost two. Really? Because he's in prison for 33 years. At 15 years old. You don't ever picture that life for a grandchild of yours. It's hard both ways. It's hard to deal with. You just take it one day at a time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

That's Kim's mom saying that. She said she faces the impossible task of grieving for her daughter while supporting her grandson who killed her daughter, who she's grieving for. That's a bad circle. In interviews, she expressed heartbreak over Kimberly's death and sorrow for Lucas's loss. She said, he's been a part of our lives. You don't just shut something like that off. Now also, they said it's really hard because they've got to talk to him and stuff. It's very expensive.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

The main prison system requires. I mean, if you want to talk to a prisoner, it's a lot of time and money. Main charge is $1.35 for a 15 minute call.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's not bad.

[James Petregallo]

It's. It adds up, though. That adds up. You want to talk. I mean, that's a lot for some people and it's. It's really difficult. Plus they're like sending him money for commissary and all that kind of thing to visit him. They have to travel. It's okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's. Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Now TJ is 20 years old. He's out and. Yeah, no, he was released. He's Released. He's already out. He served the sentence. He served three years in detention for his role in planning the murder, they said, and then they released him. So they released him at 16.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

So he must have done. He must have been doing well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Must have been just like a very, very good follower in jail.

[James Petregallo]

I think that they probably realized, oh, this kid's not a criminal really. He just was hanging out with these two dildos who were two years older than him and probably influenced him a little bit. Here. We don't know where Thomas is living. It's not public. And I guarantee you he changed his fucking name.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I would. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Anytime we see these youthful killers that get out, they always change their fucking name. Why would you start your life.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You know that deep in a hole where everyone thinks you're a piece of shit. That would be a dumb thing to do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Especially up there where there's only 3,000 people in the town. You gotta.

[James Petregallo]

True.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can't keep that name.

[James Petregallo]

No. His juvenile records are sealed, though. So. The scary part is you could be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't like that at all.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, you could be dealing with this guy. You have no fucking idea that you're dealing with this guy. He could have changed his name to John Smith and now he's fucking. Yeah, could be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who?

[James Petregallo]

Dating your daughter, renting your fucking apartment. You know, any living next door?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Buying a sandwich from you. Whatever it is, it's, you know, horrible. It's great making a sandwich for you. Who knows? So either way, there you go. That is Litchfield, Maine, everybody. And a really fucking twisted story, man. Just gross and twisted and mean and shitty. So if you like a story like that, tell the world about it, get on whatever app you're on, Please give us five stars. It really does help drive the show up the charts, which helps people find the show, which gets us more listeners, which is great for everything. So kind of the key. Also, you can help out by telling your friends. You can help out by posting on social media. You can do all that good shit for us. And thank you to everybody who does that. You can also head over to shut upandgivemerder.com to get all of your merchandise and all your tickets for live shows.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, man, we got. The fall is packed up and a lot of these are sold out. We just released some tickets that were held in San Diego, so if you left there, there might be a couple left in Grand Rapids. Otherwise, Seattle and Philly and D.C. are your best bets to come see us. But keep checking back because once in a while we have like some comps and holds and then we'll release them. So you never know. Yeah, keep checking back and you might find some tickets popping up every once in a while. A few. Not a lot, but a few. So do that. Shut up and give me murder.com follow on social media. We are on Instagram at Smalltown Murder. On Facebook at Smalltown Pod. Get yourself Patreon, damn it. You deserve it. You're worth it, damn it. You're worth Patreon. Say ah, I don't need extra episodes and I'll just listen with the ads. What do you have low self esteem? Get yourself Patreon. It's five bucks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't treat you like that, damn it.

[James Petregallo]

Treat yourself. Yeah. This is insane. This is crazy stuff. So get yourself patreon, anybody. $5 a month or above. And you can add more if you feel it's worth it because we give you a lot, but you only have to pay 5. You get bonus episodes. One crime in sports, one small town murder every other week. And you get a huge catalog, a back catalog of bonus shit to listen to immediately upon subscription. Then you're also going to get ad free content. Every show. Small town murder, crime and sports. Your stupid opinions, the regular feeds all ad free as well. In addition to bonus episodes. We couldn't possibly give you any more than that. We have no more to give everybody. That's it. Blood from a stone at this point. So get in there and do that and get yourself patreon. Patreon.com CrimeanSports this week the two episodes are for crime and sports. Jeff Alm, football player who had a crazy ending. And then for Small town murder, we're gonna talk about the poop crews.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

By popular demand. We weren't gonna but holy shit, have we been inundated with. You want it, you got it. And we'll talk a little bit about Titan submersible as well because there's two documentaries about that and I watched them both and I'm fascinated by the pure hubris of these fucking idiots. So we gotta talk a little bit about that too. So that is patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. You want to follow us on social media? Very easy to do. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com drop down menus, take you everywhere you want to go. Oh boy. That said, until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bye.

[D]

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