Just My Imagination - Howland Township, Ohio

Summary

Small Town Murder – Episode Summary Podcast: Small Town Murder
Episode: Just My Imagination – Howland Township, Ohio
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Date Released: May 14, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, comedians James and Jimmie delve into a wild case from Howland Township, Ohio: the 2001 murder of local businessman Robert Fingerhut. The tale unravels the tangled relationships between Robert, his ex-wife (but live-in partner) Donna Roberts, and her much-younger boyfriend Nathaniel Jackson, recently released from prison. Packed with the hosts’ comedic banter, the episode spotlights small-town dynamics, jaw-dropping stupidity in criminal acts, and the sheer volume of self-incriminating evidence.

---

Setting the Scene: Howland Township, Ohio

[05:34–21:02]

• Location & History: Northern Ohio, near Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Town named for the Howland family, settlers in the late 18th century.
• Demographics: ~19,000 people, older median age (44), 91% white, slightly above-average income, low cost of living ($181K median home).
• Residents’ Reviews: From “clean, safe, family friendly” (4 stars) to “very dangerous city” and complaints about off-road vehicles (plus atrocious spelling).
• Fun Facts: Hosts riff on local attractions—Trumbull County Fair features events like “carcass weigh-in,” stick horse costume classes, and the summer music concert series headlined by bands such as “The Drunken Iguanas” and “Mystery Guest.”
• Crime Rate: Extremely low—about one quarter the national average for violent crime. "Safest town we've ever heard of." – James [21:37]

---

Introducing the Case

[22:09+]

The Players

• Robert Fingerhut: Born 1945, two masters degrees (journalism, criminal justice), not used in business; owned multiple Greyhound bus stations and “Just the Ticket” coffee shop; known for hiring ex-cons and helping former inmates purchase bus tickets.
• Donna Roberts: Born 1944, Youngstown native, several marriages, businesswoman, plastic surgeon's assistant, described as quick to tie the knot and with a taste for the finer things.
• Nathaniel “Nate” Jackson: 28 years younger than Donna, from Youngstown, criminal record, Donna’s boyfriend.

Marriage & Money Matters

[33:48–36:28]

• Donna and Robert—divorced on paper for asset protection, but continued to present as married and live together.
• All assets and life insurance ($550,000) in Donna’s name.
• Robert runs businesses; Donna handles paperwork. Robert tries to curb Donna’s "52 charge card" spending habit: “I don’t even know how many credit card companies there are!” – James [41:19].
• Tension rises when Robert limits Donna’s spending to $100/week—leading her to vent to, among others, her younger boyfriend (Nate) in prison.

---

The Murder Plot Unfolds

Donna’s Affairs

[45:33–47:09; 77:09–83:58]

• Donna juggled multiple boyfriends, including Nate (in prison) and others (Carlos, Santiago).
• Her relationship with Nate was sexual and intense: “They fuck at the bus terminal. That’s just disgusting.” – Jimmie [46:43]
• Donna forgets to mention Nate in initial police interviews, then “remembers” picking him up from prison days before the murder.

The Letters: An Incriminating Paper Trail

[73:25–99:45]

• Police, armed with Donna’s eager consent to “do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard who killed my Robert,” search the house. In a dresser and car trunk, they discover:
  • 285 love letters (145 from Nate, 140 from Donna)
  • Nate’s plans: “Why don’t you leave Robert and let’s carry on with a world of our own? Or let me do what I was going to do to him…” [87:55]
  • Direct plotting: “I got it already planned out on how we’re gonna take care of the Robert situation.” – Nate [87:56]
  • Donna’s acquiescence: “Do whatever you want to him asap. Amen.” [93:22]
  • Nate’s drawing of a tombstone: “Rest in piss.” [94:08]
• Donna obsessively references her "52 charge cards" as part of her dissatisfaction: “I haven’t been allowed to use any of my 52 charge cards. … Maybe those days will return again soon. Do whatever you want to him asap.” [92:58]

---

The Crime: December 11–12, 2001

[51:52–66:59]

• 4:30 PM: Robert seen working at Youngstown terminal.
• ~9 PM: Leaves for home.
• Donna and Nate (fresh from a post-prison jacuzzi suite) are seen together around town.
• 12:01 AM: Donna calls 911, screaming, “There’s something wrong with my husband!” [54:25]
  Robert is found facedown in blood, shot three times (chest, back, top of head). Revolver nearby is fully loaded.
• Crime scene analysis: Robert attacked in garage, fought back, pistol-whipped, tried to shield himself before being executed [66:59].

---

The Investigation: Donna Crumbles

[73:25–120:06]

• Donna’s reactions are inconsistent—crying “Oh, my Robert!” on cue for the cops, calm otherwise.
• Cell phone records: phantom call to the house during the crime scene investigation traced to Donna’s phone.
• Ballistics: murder weapon not the .38 found at the scene; Robert’s car found near where Donna dropped off Nate.
• Evidence from hotel trash: bandages soaked in Nate’s blood, peroxide bottle, sneakers matching bloody footprints.

Notable quote:
“It’s one thing to have something written down, ... but when it’s someone’s own voice and you’re looking at them and you know that voice comes out of their fucking head and you’re hearing it, that is so incriminating. It’s not good.” – James [106:47]

---

The Letters (and Calls): Too Stupid to Believe

[99:45–120:06]

• Multiple letters and jail calls explicitly discuss “handling the Robert situation,” buying murder supplies (gloves and ski mask), plans for life insurance payout—and the hope for a 2002 Cadillac DeVille.
• Staggering stupidity: “Even if I gotta come to the house and shoot Robert in his fucking head, you’re gonna be with me.” – Nate [102:46]
• Donna supplies ski mask and gloves, keeps every receipt, puts everything in writing.
• Nate reassures Donna: “The only way they can do a DNA is if they got the other person’s… the laws in the state of Ohio… they way different.” [114:25] (Hosts cackle throughout.)
• Donna lies repeatedly to the police, forgets about her jailed boyfriend, then is caught by phone records and witness testimony.

---

Arrest & Legal Circus

[133:03–166:14]

• Police have Donna make a “controlled call” to Nate, but she evades their questions (to protect herself).
• December 21, 2001: Donna arrested at home—“She doesn’t resist or even seem surprised. She doesn’t go, ‘What? What do you mean?’ She’s like, ‘What took you so long?’” – James [136:02]
• Nate arrested at friend’s house, sporting an injured finger (matching glove from crime scene); confesses, but claims self-defense in a laughable story.
• Both are charged with aggravated murder, face the death penalty.
• Overwhelming evidence: letters, DNA, calls, confessions. Both are easily convicted.

---

Sentencing, Appeals, and Aftermath

[166:48–176:23]

• Jury sentences both to death. Donna’s death penalty “earned” in part thanks to her own bizarre, narcissistic refusal to present mitigating evidence:
  • “That is what I hope for. I know what I’m doing and I know why. Thank you for asking.” – Donna [161:57]
  • She spends over an hour criticizing jurors, bragging about her wealth and “52 charge cards.”
• Appeals: Donna’s sentence is thrown out and reimposed multiple times for procedural errors but ultimately remains; both now have been resentenced to life without parole as of 2025–26, but resentencing remains possible.
• Donna is now in her 80s, still the only woman on Ohio’s death row, likely to die of old age in prison.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

[67:37] Shoe prints:

"They have footprints of a certain shoe pattern and they’re pretty goddamn good and clean too. Oh, boy, that’s gonna help later." – James

[93:22] On Donna’s “Amen” to murder:

“She fucking ‘amen's’ you can go ahead and murder my husband message. Amen.” – James

[106:46] On recorded evidence:

“…when it’s someone’s own voice and you’re looking at them…that is so incriminating.”

[164:25] On Donna’s mitigation speech:

“She also used the time to berate one of the prosecution witnesses…she took offense at his testimony about her social standing. That’s what she was mad at.” – James

[161:57] Donna’s view on the death penalty:

“That is what I hope for. I know what I’m doing and I know why. Thank you for asking.” – Donna

---

Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

True crime as “only Small Town Murder can”—irreverent, incredulous, and brutally funny. The hosts roast everyone’s stupidity—from Donna’s 52 charge cards to the couple’s self-incrimination-by-novel—while maintaining empathy for the victim and his family. The case exemplifies “how NOT to get away with murder,” made all the more absurd by the long list of written, called, and drawn evidence left like breadcrumbs for investigators.

---

Key Timestamps

• 05:34: Town info/rundown of Howland Township
• 22:09: Introduction to the case and players
• 41:19: The “52 charge cards” saga begins
• 66:59: Crime scene reconstruction
• 73:25: Letters and investigation evidence
• 93:22: The “amen” murder note
• 106:46: On the weight of recorded phone calls
• 120:06: Motel evidence and timeline
• 133:03: Donna’s arrest & controlled call
• 166:48: Trial, mitigation disaster, sentencing
• 171:17: Donna’s later defense: “Just my imagination”
• 176:23: Epilogue: resentencing, current status

---

For Listeners

You don’t have to be a true crime aficionado to enjoy: this episode’s as much a skewering of criminal idiocy as a retelling of a tragic small-town murder—delivered with classic Small Town Murder comic timing and jaw-dropping details.

Transcript

[Jimmy Whisman]

You didn't start a business just to

[James Petregallo]

keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win. Lucky for you, Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet like the just one tapping ridiculously fast acting sky high sales stacking champion at checkouts. That's the good stuff right there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So if your business is in it

[James Petregallo]

to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial [e-mail] winner. Early birds always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets

[Jimmy Whisman]

you closer to the action.

[James Petregallo]

So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine average savings $141. Select homes only this week in Howland Township, Ohio, a popular local businessman is brutally murdered in his own home. Leading detectives to his estranged wife, whom he still lives with several of her boyfriends and a treasure trove of letters. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy, wild, insane, just nutty edition of Small Town Murder. As always, and of course, bloody you can add to that too. Definitely crazy stuff today as usual. We will get to all that and more. Before we do, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your tickets for live shows, everybody. Also, merchandise everything there you could possibly want. But tickets for live shows. I believe that Royal Oak is sold out by now. Yeah. So yeah, the Buffalo Royal Oak, they're sold out. So next tickets available after the Summer in September, September 18, Milwaukee. September 19, Minneapolis. Then October 3 in Dallas. October 16, San Jose. October 17, Sacramento. November 13, Tarrytown. November 14, Boston. So that is the schedule. Get your tickets right now for those. Shut up and givememurder.com make sure to listen to our other two shows. Crime in sports, which you do not have to like sports to like, trust us. You have to like us Making fun one of a guy who committed criminal acts when they absolutely didn't have to. That's fun. We can do that. But you don't have to like sports and your stupid opinions because who doesn't like to laugh at other people's reviews? That's the funniest thing in the world. So can't wait for that. Then get yourself Patreon. My goodness, get that Patreon. Patreon.com CrimeaSports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get every damn thing we put out, including so much. As soon as you subscrib hundreds of back bonus episodes, almost 400 of them, as soon as you subscribe, then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And you get them all this week, which you're gonna get. This is a fun one for crime and sports. We're gonna talk about the power team. Do you remember those guys that were like on the Christian channel and they would like rip phone books and bend things and be like, I love Jesus after they did it? You don't remember those guys. They had all this crazy power stunts that they would do. The jack steroided up lunatic Jesus did it. But that's what they go, oh, thank you, Jesus. After they would like lift a giant thing. It's the craze. And then afterwards, of course, it all fell apart and there's some scandal involved

[Jimmy Whisman]

because obviously it was a grift, it was a lie.

[James Petregallo]

Well, I mean, at the time, who knows? But it turned into something weird. And then for small town murder, it's Internet salad time, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Everything that's going on in the world today that doesn't have anything to do with politics because we feel like you probably enough of that everywhere else in your life. So we'll make fun of everything else. So patreon.com crimeinsports is how you do that. And like I said, with that, you also get everything we put out. Crime and sports, small town murder, your stupid opinions ad free with your Patreon as well. All ad free. Can't beat that. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. Jimmy will mispronounce your name while wanting so desperately to get it correct. So do that and come hang out with us. Patreon.com CrimeInSports said disclaimer time. Hey, everybody, it's a comedy show.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Surprise.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's a comedy show. We're comedians. We are gonna make jokes and people are gonna die because it's called small town murder. So it'd be really weird, if nothing else, if everybody was fine at the end of it. So that's how you do when you go, well, how does that work? How do you make jokes when people are dead? Well, very easily, I think, honestly, just don't be a jackass. And it's pretty easy. What we do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why is that, James?

[James Petregallo]

Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But.

[James Petregallo]

But we're not scumbags. That's all it is. There's plenty of other stuff to make fun of around it. Think about it. Somebody putting together a big murder plot and going, I think I can pull this off. That's pretty funny. We're gonna make fun of that. You know? So that said. Yes, it's crazy stuff. And, yeah, we gotta get into this here. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say here? I think it's time to clear the lungs. Arms to the sky, everybody, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, let's do it. We are going to Howland Township, Ohio, this week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Howland.

[James Petregallo]

Howland Township. H O W L A N D. Howland. How did this land happen?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Howland Township, Ohio. It's in northern Ohio. About an hour and 15 to Cleveland. About an hour and 25 to Pittsburgh Fair. Yeah, I feel like we've passed this driving from Pittsburgh to Cleveland, for sure. One of those places you go through. It's about an hour 52. Bel Air, Ohio. Our last Ohio episode, episode 658, the Dark Prince of Belmont County. Remember that? We did that for a virtual live show, too. And that was crazy stuff here. That guy was. Wow, too much. That was a lot. That was a whole lot of craziness there. So there's that. This is in Trumbull County. T, R U M B U, L, L County area code. Not how you expected that one, huh? No, exactly. So I spelled it because I'm like. It's a weird spelling. Area code. 2, 3, 4 and 3, 3, 0 as well here. Now, a little bit of history. This is the only Howland Township in the state, which in Ohio, there are towns that share the same name. What they didn't, like, go through, you figure like early days of the post office, they would have went through and went. Okay, this is before zip codes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think they would have said, two Clevelands.

[James Petregallo]

We can't. Not two Clevelands, but there's a cup. Two of this and two of that. You think somebody would have said, let's purge all of the names that are doubles, and whoever had it first gets to keep it. So it's wild. The town is named for the Howland family, who are the original settlers of the township. They were pilgrims that were aboard the Mayflower. Wow. They are Very original. Just got here, you know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first ones.

[James Petregallo]

First ones. Now, Joseph Howland purchased the township from the Connecticut Land Company in 1795. And then the township was organized in 1812. There was a sawmill by 1814, a grist mill by 1815.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We're gristing and sawing now.

[James Petregallo]

We got wood and grist now we're ready to go here. This is. Now we're out of town. Began in 1830, Howland Springs began operation as a health spa.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

And operated as a health spa until the township. In the township until it burned down in 1882.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The spa burned down, I believe.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. The spring spa thing burned down. Which you'd think. I don't know how you burn down a spring. That would be impossible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, it's water and rocks. There's water and shit.

[James Petregallo]

And you could burn down the shit around it. But put another structure and it's still a spring. I don't get it. So anyway, reviews of this town. Let's find out what other people think of this town. Because. Because maybe we've passed through it, but if we did, we don't remember.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's possible.

[James Petregallo]

What are you gonna do? It has 3.8 stars on niche. So questionable for a Chinese restaurant, put it that way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not good.

[James Petregallo]

Not good. Here is four stars. Howland Township is a clean, safe, family friendly community that offers a wide range of restaurants and community functions.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

So they got that. That seems like a five star. I don't know why you only gave it four.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wide range. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Not quite wide enough, apparently. Four stars again. Howland Township is a quiet township with great schools and low crime. Yeah. Amazing place to raise kids and grow a family. This picture. You watering them? Oh, look at little Johnny. He's getting up to my knee now. Yeah, I gotta. We gotta prune him. He's getting a little too long.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They grow faster when you do.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's what I mean. Well, they grow wider. That way you get more robust, you

[Jimmy Whisman]

know, start to bulk up.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, uh, it's. So there's that. It's mostly older people and young parents with school age children, which is a very odd mixture. Just like 25 year olds with little kids and 75 year olds that are retired there. What an odd thing. Real estate's a little on the high side, but so very worth it. Real estate is not on the high side, by the way, as we'll find out. Here is two stars. There's very few career growth opportunities and the city is, quote, very dangerous city. The city which it's not. Is very dangerous. We'll talk about how dangerous it is when we get the crime rate. It's insanely low. Like this person is out of their minds. I don't know. This is the type person that like hears something happened one time and then they think dangerous. Can't walk the streets. Here's one star. This is fun. Issues with four with off road. Four wheelers and ATVs. Dirt bikes. Backyard. One acre of the yard. One acre of yard. The yard is literally a dirt track. Houses here are very close. Noise is a big issue. Very old. Excessively. Not even spelled. Close to what excessively is. Excessively loud. There's no punctuation here, by the way. None. Yeah, this is one paragraph. This goes on constantly in this township. Plus many other zoning issues that are never addressed as this same residence. Others throughout our township also cause issues with off road. By the way, they've spelled road twice in the same way. Wrong. Both times. R o e D roede. R o e D R o e D twice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's not even a word.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. That is not a mistake. And the E isn't close enough to the A to make a mistype either.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's how they think road is spelled.

[James Petregallo]

That's how you think? Yep. You should see how excessively is spelled. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yikes.

[James Petregallo]

Caused issues with off road vehicles and other parts of the township and zoning issues that have been violated, but nothing done about them. They was already done before zoning was informed. Now the rest of the Whoa. Neighbors. That is some way to N I e b h e r s neighbors

[Jimmy Whisman]

N I e

[James Petregallo]

n ibers have to deal with such a big nuisance. Not even close. And you don't even have to ask. Four neighbors. This person's complaining about one particular neighbor that has a dirt track on their acre that their kids ride dirt bikes on. And they're very upset about it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They do not like it.

[James Petregallo]

Not like it at all. People in this town, 18,993. That's kind of like the whole little area here. It's a good sized town. 51% women, 49% men. So a few more ladies in that town. Median age here is about five years over the national average. It's 43.9. So the retirement people are weighing the younger people the other direction. About 49% married. So very close to the average. Everything here is kind of average. This seems like your average midwestern American small town. It's got all the single with children, married. All these things are right on the average deal. Race in this town, not quite average. 91.3% white, 2.5% black, 1.5% Asian, 1% Hispanic, 1.5% Native American, which is high. You see that in New Mexico or Utah, places like that. But I wasn't aware there was a lot of Native Americans in Ohio at this point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, I don't know. I can't even imagine why.

[James Petregallo]

No religion in this town. It's 48% religious. 50% is the national average. And it's really a mixed bag. Everything's kind of 10% this, 11% that. Catholic is the number one. But it's like 14% to 13% or something. It's not a big deal. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the Midwest.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ohio River Valley.

[James Petregallo]

Of the Ohio River Valley. Cost of living here, 100 being regular. Average here it's 90. So not bad. Median household income, little above the national average, $73,600 or $361. So about five grand over the national average.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Very average.

[James Petregallo]

Median home cost, $181,500.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's not so bad.

[James Petregallo]

There's a one in front of this and this person said, real estate's outrageous. Outrageous, outrageous. So if we've convinced you, you know what, you'd like to live in a midwestern, small, boring town, we have for you the Howland Township, Ohio real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here is $790, which is very affordable. 500 less than the national average. Extremely affordable. That's like 19 or, you know, 2003 prices. That's not bad. Here is house number one. Four bedroom, two bath, 1344 square feet. It's a brick square. It just looks like a big brick block.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They got four bedrooms out of that. It's impressive.

[James Petregallo]

You gotta squeeze. I had a 1400 square foot house with four bedrooms.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And did you?

[James Petregallo]

They're pretty small. Yeah, they're carved out pretty small by eight, right? Yeah, they're not like one of them was a good. Two of them were a good size and two of them were pretty small. Two of them you could have combined and made a third, basically. So, yeah. This is brick. It doesn't look that great. Looks a little tad bit run down. Not terrific. Built in 1925, so it's old. Close to a lot of other houses. 99,900 bucks though.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not bad.

[James Petregallo]

It's livable. The inside isn't torn to pieces. It's a livable house with four bedrooms for 100 grand.

[Jimmy Whisman]

2001 prices, that's not bad.

[James Petregallo]

Not bad. No. Here is a four bedroom, two bath, 2052 square feet. But it's done a little bit more recently on the inside than the other one. But you got the gray laminate floors and it's. You know, they redid gray cabinets. They redid everything very neutral to make it sell. Little two story house built in 1918. So an old house. Again, 129,900 bucks for that. Again, pretty cheap. They just had a $5,000 reduction on that one too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it's on sale.

[James Petregallo]

And it's on sale. Next up, four bedroom, five bath. T bowl for each and every B hole right here. That's a lot. 5,086 square feet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They like the number five.

[James Petregallo]

It's beautiful. It's a big. Like the nice bricks. And inside is very well done. It's gorgeous. Built in 2000.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, and new too.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Half an acre, 0.53 acres. You know, leafy around. It looks like it's in a nice neighborhood. Very nice. 529,900 bucks for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And there's a five in the number.

[James Petregallo]

Look at that. Instead of a million in the number for 5,000 square feet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ohio, putting the mid and Midwest.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, putting the mid price in Midwest. This had a $20,000 price cut recently too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, things to do here. Let's find out what we have to do. Here we go. Okay. Number one, the Trumbull County Fair, which is right next door in Warren. Ten minutes away, not even. So looking up this fair and man, it's a lot of. A lot of like livestock shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, Farming shit.

[James Petregallo]

I see a carcass, steer weigh in. A carcass, Carcass, hog weigh in. Does that mean the fuck is that? Carcass is a dead animal, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. That's usually a body.

[James Petregallo]

Why are we weighing bodies? I don't know, but I don't know if there's an autopsy practice course after that or what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I thought the idea of the fair was show us your prize winning animal that breathes.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's at least alive.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

If we put food in front of it, it should react. That's how it gets a ribbon. Then there's the equine station judging. Okay, so there's all of that carcass, goat weigh in. Carcass, lamb weigh in. I don't know why they're bringing their carcasses.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do you want to slaughter your best one and bring it down?

[James Petregallo]

I guess I'll eat the lamb. I mean, and the hog and the steer, I suppose, but not the Horse. So there's judging of horses. There's 4H Royal Court, the 4H fashion review.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fashion.

[James Petregallo]

Fashion review. Apparently the junior fair equine English show. What the fuck is that? I don't know what that is. We have the Jaybird, who's a band playing. And Jim Hein is also playing that night.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jim Hein.

[James Petregallo]

Jim Hein. There's also a patriotic costume contest. Oh boy, there's that. The Thunder Creek band will be there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Shit, yeah, the Thunder Creek band. Then there'll be tractor poles.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy. Steven Saramuga acoustic will be there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

Playing all the tunes you know. You know. And love. Everybody loves them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was real into it a minute ago. It was all motorsport.

[James Petregallo]

There's also a cow milking contest that takes place in the milking parlor, which sounds disgusting. They have a bunch of those in Reno and it's nasty. You don't want to go to the milking parlors. Diane and Terry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm going to say happy or sue

[James Petregallo]

for up there somewhere, something. Diane and Terry McCabe will be playing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know what they do, but old Diane and Terry will get together. There is a stick horse costume class. I don't know, A junior fair cheese auction.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

These all sound like mad libs. This is ridiculous. Demolition derby. There we go. That's fun. Release large animals is one of the scheduled things. Just into the crowd.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just gonna open the stairs.

[James Petregallo]

People running, no trampling going on everywhere. Old ladies underfoot. Then there's release equine and small animals, which. That's horses. Yeah, Releasing horses. That's crazy. So, yeah, there's all of that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're just gonna cut them loose.

[James Petregallo]

Cut em loose. Let them go, boys.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

Get them out of here. Then there is also the community park Sunday summer music concert series. This takes place now. We're talking in Howland Township. We got. Let's see, this is starting in May here. May 31st, the Richie Wilkins Trio will be there. Oh, three guys named Richie Wilkins. Awesome. June 7th, Richie Wilkins. Oh, Richie Wilkins. You know, Richie Wilson.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's not our guy. Richie Wilson.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. Not the guy who edits this show. Richie Wilson. No, we're talking about Richie Wilkins. Richie Wilkins, which could be one of Richie's alter egos. We don't know. We don't know what he does when he's not editing the show. We know he owns a restaurant and he's pretty busy as a family. But still, you never know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That'll copy this yet.

[James Petregallo]

No, June 7th, strums and drums will be there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

June 21st, justified.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, I thought this was a concert series. Meaning there are concerts of.

[James Petregallo]

Technically, concerts. No, no, no. Ludacris won't be here, unfortunately.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's no national act.

[James Petregallo]

No. Well, maybe. Let me go through more. July 5, eerie height brass Ensemble. Is that one of your favorites? I know you got a poster of them up in your garage and you

[Jimmy Whisman]

know, I think they were touring this year.

[James Petregallo]

I thought they were off now. This sounds fun. July 19th, the drunken iguanas will be there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petregallo]

Great. August 9th, speed limit. August 14th, the Howland High School Band will be there. Jimmy, this is all top notch Entertainment.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So annoying.

[James Petregallo]

August 30th, mystery guests. Oh, I don't know if that's the name of the band or. We really don't know who's performing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We haven't booked them yet.

[James Petregallo]

I'm not sure. Tva now. Crime rate in this town.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's it.

[James Petregallo]

That's it? That's the whole summer series? That's all you get. They're not even.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Every week, the mystery is the headliner.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. They're closing out the summer babe, that's how.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's actually the guy that sells the tickets, for Christ's sake.

[James Petregallo]

Labor Day, the weekend after. That's it. It's all over now. Crime rate, Like I said, very dangerous. Remember? Terrifying. According to some reviewer here, property crime about one third of the national average. Two thirds. Whoa.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Under.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Terrifying. Then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one quarter of the national average.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is like the safest town we've ever heard of.

[James Petregallo]

Extremely safe. I looked up their stats last year. They had zero murders here. They're doing pretty well as far as safety goes. And this person. Dangerous won't even leave the house. Okay, that said, let's talk about some murders, shall we? Here we go. So let's get into this here. All right. Let's start out in 2001 and talk about some people here. Let's talk about a guy with a very fun name, Robert Fingerhut.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really? Like the magazine Finger Hut.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Just like the magazine. Catalog. Like the catalog.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Did you ever have Finger Hut in your house?

[James Petregallo]

I've seen it. Not in my house, no, but I've seen it. Parents are a big catalog orders.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My mom treated Finger Hut like I treat Facebook Marketplace. I just browse.

[James Petregallo]

Just browse. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It showed up to our house all the time. I never bought a single thing from them.

[James Petregallo]

I saw it. You'd see it at like, a dentist's office or something. I never knew what the it was. What do they have? What is that?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is this a. Is this a catalog of Sky Mall?

[James Petregallo]

Like. Yeah, kind of like a sky Mall for the ground. Magazine Mall. Problem is we have stores on the ground, so it's like. But they have, like, housewares and shit or like clothes or.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they had all kinds of stuff in there. Fucking electronics, kind of almost kind of like the quality of Brookstone. Say again?

[James Petregallo]

Like Brookstone or Sharper Image or like weird shit. No, no, no, no. You know, like air purifier. Montgomery Ward makes no noise. Okay, okay, so a variety. Okay, I get what you're saying.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's like a department store, but it's just a catalog.

[James Petregallo]

It's Amazon with a catalog.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, but I don't know a soul that ever bought anything from him.

[James Petregallo]

No.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know when. May still be this guy may have been a part of it.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe he wasn't. I think we know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know what Finger Hut meant.

[James Petregallo]

He's part of the Florida Finger Huts. It's a different branch of the Finger Hut. Yeah, you know, you're talking about the Newport Beach Finger Huts. They're a different group. Now, Robert Fingerhut was born in 1945. Or 40. Yeah, 45. He's got. Grows up. Has two graduate degrees, by the way. Wow. Has a master's in journalism. Yeah, and a master's in criminal justice studies. Oh, so he'd be a great crime reporter. I mean, that would be. Christ, he could break down the court shit for you. He'd be a perfect crime recorder reporter. By the way, he does not do that at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He does none of these things.

[James Petregallo]

He owns Greyhound bus stations and coffee shops and shit. Nothing to do with journalism or criminal justice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But he found a place that has the most criminals.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Imagine going to school for that long to get master's degrees and not using them at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just using your finger hunt money to buy Gray Thins.

[James Petregallo]

Not even like in the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, not even in the ballpark.

[James Petregallo]

Not even like an adjacent industry. This doesn't make any sense at all. So he's got a son named Michael that we'll talk about, too. Who he has younger here. Two Greyhound terminal, two Greyhound bus terminals later on. One in Warren, Ohio, one in Youngstown, Ohio, and we'll figure that out later. That's when they move to Ohio, because right now he's in Florida. He is known as kind of A gatherer of lost puppies. He's kind of that kind of guy. Yeah. Treated people very well. Like, he only hired ex cons to drive his buses. Which says that that's nice. But then you're also putting a group of people in a metal box with a felon for God knows how many

[Jimmy Whisman]

hours, control of a $200,000 vehicle. That.

[James Petregallo]

That true. That too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That shit may go to Mexico and never come back. Or somewhere else.

[James Petregallo]

Somewhere else. Or just taken apart in Cleveland, somewhere in Detroit, somewhere. You never know. But this is who. He would also give destitute prisoners a free Greyhound ticket so they could go visit family too. When people get out of prison, they know they could go to Robert Fingerhut for a free bus ticket to see family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

God, it sounds like an alias. That's so crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Robert Fingerhut. It sounds like a name like Austin Powers would make up, like Robert Fingerhut.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, this is my wife, Oprah.

[James Petregallo]

Oprah Fingerhut. It's really what it sounds like. So his father Michael said about his father that he really just liked helping people. Wouldn't judge anybody before they fucked him over, basically.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's nice.

[James Petregallo]

He said he was probably the least prejudiced person on earth. He just gave everybody. Whether you could just get out of prison or you could come from the governor's office, he's gonna treat you the same way and give you the same amount of respect type of thing. So let's find out how he got to Ohio. All right. Well, he had been married earlier and divorced. And that's where the son Michael came from. But in 1980, he met a new woman, Robert Fingerhut. It's time for the Fingerhut to get fingering. Keep on walking. Just moving along with his little fingers here. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to quit a bad habit with fume.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Try fum.comt r y f u-m.com.

[James Petregallo]

absolutely.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You go.

[James Petregallo]

What's fum? Well, it's very simple. Fum is a flavored air device designed to help people quit vaping and smoking by breaking the hand to mouth pattern. It's simple, it's natural. It's pretty genius, if I'm being honest here. No nicotine, no batteries, no vapor. Just a weighted, twisty, fidget, friendly tool that gives your hands something better to reach for when cravings show up. And God, it's so true too, those cravings get you. It's so nice to have something to grab onto. It's not like I said. Like I said here, there's no vapor. There's none of that. It's just air. It's just flavored air. So there's nothing damaging. There's nothing that's going to bother anybody else. And it's really great about breaking the habit because the cravings aren't just about nicotine. They're about that habit. The hand to mouth motion, the oral thing, that momentary pause. That's when the cravings spike. Fume replaces your habit with a flavored air fidget device that gives your hands and mouth something to do. Distracting cravings without nicotine vapor or batteries. Don't just try to quit. Upgrade the habit loop. Reach for fume instead. I'm telling you, when you're sitting there on that couch and it's starting to happen, and you're like, I'm gonna go outside and, you know, no, don't do that. You can just grab your fume, mess around with it a little bit. It's got a good weight to it, so it really feels like something in your hand. Draw on it, get the nice flavor of the air, and after a couple minutes, your cravings are gone. It's really, really helpful. So, I mean, you can do this. You can make a pattern for when it's gonna be, I'm gonna use it this much on this day, and it's great. The flavors are good, too. They have all sorts of good flavors. Crisp mint is the strongest flavor. Best for heavy users. There's a raspberry one that's tangy and on the sweeter end, I love the peach one. That's my favorite. And when you grab a journey pack, you'll also get a free gift just for using our code smalltownmurder. Fume has already helped over 700,000 people take steps toward better habits. And now it's your turn. Use our code Smalltown Murder to get a free gift with your journey pack. Head to tryfume.com that's T R Y F U M dot com and use code Smalltown Murder to claim your free gift today.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to treat your cat's litter box with boxycat boxycat.com Absolutely. I love the kitties, man. I love them. I love Brandi. Brandy's my little kitty, and she wakes you up by getting up on your chest there. And you wake up to, like, purring, and you're vibrating. That's why I love cats. They're cool, they're nice, they're cute, they're furry, they're purry. I love them. They're good stuff. And Brandi, I want to give her the best, you know what I mean? Sure. Want her to be the most comfortable you can be. And Boxy Cat is the way to do it because not only is it great for her, more importantly, it's great for us. Boxy Cat. It's fantastic. This podcast is sponsored by Boxy. Boxee is the last cat litter you'll switch to. And their Boxy Pro Deep Clean is the best cat litter money can buy. The pro in Boxy Pro stands for probiotics, which Boxee puts right in the litter. That gobbles up odor causing bacteria and keeps the box continuously odor free. Yes, continuously. Not for 10 days or 20 days. Infinite days of continual odor freshness. And your cat won't smell anything either. It's no fake sense. Which will, you know, can give him or her one less reason to avoid this litter box. They're gonna want to go in there. And for a limited time, get 30% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to boxycat.com Smalltown Murder and use the code Smalltown Murder. You can do that. This litter is fantastic. It's so good. I'm telling it clumps right up. The smell is gone. The cat loves it. It's really good. Honestly, if you want good cat litter, this is the way to do it. And plus, with Boxy, you don't need to do full litter changes. You just scoop and top it off with fresh boxy litter. And it's awesome. Really great. And they use, they hold themselves to a really high standard, 100% US sourced clay and thoughtful ingredients with no additives or filters. If you're tired of switching litters, look for the one. Get 30% off your boxy otter at boxiecat.com smalltown murder and use the code smalltownmurder. That's boxycat.com smalltownmurder and make sure that you use our code Small Town Murder so they know we sent you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

So he meets a new woman, Donna Marie Roberts. She's born May 22, 1944, about a year older than him. So they're both in their mid-30s at this point. It's a prime time for a second marriage for everyone, certainly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She's also divorced a couple of times as we'll talk about. She was from Youngstown, Ohio, originally in this area. She graduated Austintown Fitch High School in Ohio. She's a self described businesswoman, put it that way. She's recently divorced. When they met, they met in 1980. And she had gotten divorced earlier in 1980. And she meets Robert now, a little bit of her history. In 1966, she was 22 years old and she married her first husband, William Raymond, and they moved down to Miami together. Florida, not Ohio. You gotta say that in Ohio. Might think we're talking about there. So they had a son in 1969, apparently also named Michael. So both Robert and Donna both have sons named Michael or around the same age. From what I get here, that marriage didn't last very long. And they divorced in 1971. So she's in her 20s, newly divorced, whatever, in 1972. She doesn't waste a lot of time. Grass does not grow under her fucking diaphragm. We'll put it that way. She dives right back in here. Tried to think of a 1971 form of birth control. And I'm like, diaphragm. They loved a diaphragm back then. That was hot shit for him. So she, in 1972, remarries or marries another guy. Here she gets remarried, but to a different guy, to Burton Gelfand.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yikes.

[James Petregallo]

Burton Gelfand. Now this marriage will last until 1980, when she meets Mr. Fingerhut there. So somewhere from 72 to 80, she converted to Judaism. I don't know when that. Oh, yeah, I think Burton Gelfand is probably Jewish possibly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Especially she met him in Miami. It all lines up. Burton Gelfand. So I think that's possibly it. So she converted to Judaism, she works as a plastic surgeon's assistant in North Miami beach for a long time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What are they?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, from the 70s to the 90s.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Help me jam this suction rod up this lady's thigh. I mean.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, you got. Hand me this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You gotta hand tools.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, there's a whole. I mean, they usually have multiple assistants during a surgery.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But she's not medically learned.

[James Petregallo]

No, she has no master's degrees in anything. But yeah, she worked as a plastic surgeon's assistant. Like I said. Not sure exactly what that entails. That might be sterilizing. I don't know what she does.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She could be just doing paperwork.

[James Petregallo]

No clue. Exactly. Which sounds like a decent job anyway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Easy and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But it pays well.

[James Petregallo]

Very Miami also.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

So 1980, she meets Robert Fingerhut.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And it's the Donna Fingerhut connection here. They get together, they get married within a year of meeting. She's quick, man. She marries you, she meets you, it's over. They bought a house in the Miami gardens area in 1983. Doing that. So marriage seems to be going well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So well that in 1985, they decide to get divorced. Oh, okay. But. And I say that very specifically, so well that they decide to get divorced. They don't break up. This has nothing to do with their marriage whatsoever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, this is crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean. Cause. Yeah, divorced kind of is everything about your marriage.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, but as far as. If they didn't have that paperwork, you never know. Anything. Nothing changes. They don't move out from each other's house. They don't. Everything's exactly the same. But on paper, they're divorced. That's the way they do it. Now, this is some sort of weird financial move. I don't know if Robert had lawsuit issues possibly, or something of that nature, because that seems to be the reason why they did this. Because the divorce was a financial maneuver. And strictly. Oh, yeah, they get divorced. And then he wanted to move assets around in case he got sued or something like that. So basically he ends up putting all of his business assets and shit in her name. Everything, houses, everything they're going to have is going to be in her name from now on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And they're divorced.

[James Petregallo]

You can't touch it. You sue him. You can't get to her, basically, or you can't get to him, essentially.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So that's how this goes. But they still live together. They're still a happy couple. They do everything together. They present themselves in public as a married couple. He calls her my wife. She calls him my husband.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, it's just a paperwork thing, which is really weird. Slept in the same bed, all of that. Yeah, it's weird. And one person said most people who dealt with Roberts and Fingerhut assumed that they were married. Her last name is Robertson. His name is Robinson.

[Jimmy Whisman]

His first name is Roberts.

[James Petregallo]

That's so confusing. Okay. So they end up selling the Florida place and went to Richmond, Virginia, in about 1992.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Interesting. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They spend about a year in Virginia, then in 1993, they move up to Youngstown, Ohio, Donna's hometown. They decide to go from Miami to Youngstown, Ohio.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Which is a real specific move. You have to hate that heat to go to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And yourself.

[James Petregallo]

And yourself. Well, that's a lateral move as far as pain goes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Youngstown is brutal.

[James Petregallo]

It's brutal. But I could not live in Miami. I would last three days there before I would strangle somebody because I was so fucking hot. I can't take that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fucking Youngstown is just fucking hideous.

[James Petregallo]

97 with 98% humidity, and you're in Florida. Fuck that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yes.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's nothing great about rural Ohio, though. Rural Ohio is fucking bleak.

[James Petregallo]

We've driven through it all there is. Is that Grandpa's cheese place that we stopped at? That's about it. Boy, the bathroom in there is a sight to behold. Let me tell you something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly what you would imagine a roadside cheese shop, cheese distribution shop smell like. Like everyone's been in the car a long time, then stopped and had too much cheese, essentially.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And sauce. There's meats, too.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, there's all sorts of weird shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fucking crazy.

[James Petregallo]

So 1994, they purchase a house in Howland Township on Fond du Lac Drive. Technically, Donna purchases the house because it's in her name, but it's their house. But like everything else, all the assets are in her name now. They have these businesses, by the way. They have Greyhound terminals and Warren and Youngstown in Donna's name. They have an Avis rental car franchise at the Youngstown Warren Regional Airport.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At the airport?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And that sounds like a big one there. The Youngstown Warren Regional Airport. Lots of big flights going in there, boy. That's also in Donna's name. And inside the Youngstown bus station. These are the most depressing locations ever. Two Greyhound terminals, a car rental joint in a tiny rural fucking municipal airport shithole.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And a restaurant inside a shitty town's bus station. That's what they run. The restaurant inside the bus station was called Just the Ticket. That's what they had here. So all of this stuff is what they own. And this is all in Donna's name. Robert runs it all, though. Donna does, like, the bookkeeping and stuff. Yeah, paperwork, that kind of thing. In addition to that, he also has, even though they're not married, even his life insurance policies are in her name for sure. She's the beneficiary. He has two policies with a combined $550,000 of money. And sole beneficiary is Donna. For both of these, that's in the late 90s. That comes up now. He's at the Greyhound terminal all the time, which he owns several businesses. I would think you'd have to probably spend some time there. Yeah, he was the one who worked all the long days there and shit like that. She'd do paperwork and payroll and things, but he did all of that. But they were very comfortable. They made good money, which Is there's no sadder place on earth than a Greyhound station.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not really, no.

[James Petregallo]

Nobody there would be traveling with that means if they could afford any other way to do it. This is. It's misery.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And we've learned from your stupid opinions now it's not even affordable. It's not even like a discount ticket. It's. It's as expensive or more than flying.

[James Petregallo]

So many people say, in the end, they're like, I don't know why I didn't just fly, because in the end, it cost me the same amount of money. But this took four days, and they left me on the side of the road for, you know, seven hours in the middle of the night.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I paid $800 to go from Youngstown to Denver.

[James Petregallo]

You did what in ten days? That's horrible. Slept on several floors, shit in Greyhound station, bus stations for a week and a half. You could have just flown in two and a half hours and been done.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

So Donna in this relationship. Donna likes to spend money as well. Robert's a little more frugal, but Donna likes to. She likes to spend. She likes to flaunt a little bit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

She, in her own words, says she has 52 charge cards.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

52 credit cards. I don't even know how many. I didn't even know there was that many credit card companies. How the hell do you get that many credit cards?

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can have more than one with each one.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, but still, different shitty banks, different interest rates. It wouldn't make sense to have 52

[Jimmy Whisman]

of them or even more. So like, I have two cards and both of them have a crazy limit that I'll never, ever, ever, ever spend.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How many? How many? What's the limit? You know what I mean? At five. At how many?

[James Petregallo]

52.

[Jimmy Whisman]

52 cards.

[James Petregallo]

52 cards.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What, do you have a limit of 600 bucks on each card?

[James Petregallo]

I have two credit cards. One that is. We both use for airline shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's absurd what they keep doing with that.

[James Petregallo]

It's so silly. But, you know, we. And you know, you need a credit card on the road and hotels and all that thing. And then I have, like, a backup credit card that I never use.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

That's. That's what I. That's what I have. Basically. I have a backup problem with the other one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's exactly. Fucking reader won't read my American Express.

[James Petregallo]

Something like that. Or even, who the hell knows, some weird glitch and some shit. I don't know. I'm not getting turned away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here's My other card, thank God I've got. I've got a bank one and then I've got the American Express. And it's because banks fail and they have done that to me.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that happens. As we remember. When they shut down your account, thank

[Jimmy Whisman]

God I had that Delta Amex. I had actual money. Well, I didn't have any money, but

[James Petregallo]

you could charge whatever you needed, though. That's the good part. So she would. Basically, she wanted large sums of money to do things all the time. There's a day that we're going to talk about here where he refused, Robert refused to give Donna $3,000. And she got real mad at him. And somebody who was nearby said that she gave him the dirtiest look, like it can kill a person. That's what they said. She was so mad that he wouldn't

[Jimmy Whisman]

give her three grand.

[James Petregallo]

Three grand just to go fuck around with here. They said that she was so mad she was shaky and trembling. That's how mad she got.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like, they gotta be doing really well, huh?

[James Petregallo]

52 charge cards. I don't know how you wouldn't. How the hell would you get that many issued to you?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Anybody can get a shitload of charge cards, right?

[James Petregallo]

Can you? I don't know. When I was 4, I just didn't try to get charge cards because I was like, why would they give me one? I can't afford that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They also have businesses and you can

[James Petregallo]

make charge cards with no fucking from the business too. You can have company cards, personal cards.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nobody signed on it. It's just the fucking company.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, totally. Now at this time, too, late 90s, Robert's son Michael lives down in Florida. He's down there, so he's not around either. We'll get to him later. So during this time, 2001 ish, Robert starts cracking down on her spending.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Starts doing this now. She later on in her own writing, which. Oh, boy, we will get to her writing. She is quite the prolific writer over here. Yeah. Oh, Stephen King's got nothing on her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We got a Shakespeare.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. For incriminating writings. Yes. Imagine if Stephen King wrote as much as he did, but detailing crimes he was gonna commit. That would be equivalent. She said that Robert was Now giving her $100 a week for everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's her allowance.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. And he took away her charge cards, she said, saying, these are for emergencies only. And so she's now, instead of 52 charge cards, she's got $100 a week that she can use for discretionary spending. That's much less Much less. She said that she was humiliated. She said, I'm not used to living like this. I'm used to having plenty of cash for whatever I want and buying everything I want. And they're in their 50s. He's probably thinking about retirement.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How am I gonna do this forever?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, retirement, we need to do whatever. I'm not sure now. At the same time you might say, well, who's she telling all this to? I'm not used to living like this. Blah, blah, blah. Well, one of the people she's telling is her boyfriend, who is 28 years younger than her, by the way. Did I mention that part? Because that's important.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petregallo]

28 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And he's banging her because he thinks he's got a hot rich chick on his hands.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Then she tells him I get $100 a week.

[James Petregallo]

And he's like, 100? I get a hundred. I make more than that. Well, not where he is in 2001 because he's in prison in 2001. So he's making like 4 cents a day probably in there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's got a boyfriend who's in prison,

[James Petregallo]

a 28 year old younger guy who's in prison. Now, when they got together, he wasn't in prison, but he ended up going to prison while they were together here. And that's not her only boyfriend, mind you. What, several other boyfriends. Yeah. She's quite a busy lady, this Donna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God.

[James Petregallo]

Now Nathaniel Jackson is her boyfriend, Nate Jackson, and he, like I said, 28 years younger than her. They had sex whenever they could. He's from Youngstown, by the way. That's where he's born and raised. And they have sex in apartments he's staying in with friends. They stop at motels, parking lots. They fuck at the bus terminal. How crazy is that? If you're fucking at a bus terminal? That's just disgusting. That's disgusting.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How old is she now? In her 50s.

[James Petregallo]

In her 50s. 2001. Christ. She's going to be. Yeah, in her mid-50s at this point. She's born in 45, 46.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What? I said she's banging a man in his 20s.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. This guy's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dang.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. 28 years younger, I guess. Well, not really, but yeah, I mean, that's fine. We say good for her, but if it was the other way around, we'd be like, come on, Grandpa fucking. Yeah, so the same bullshit applies. Come on, Grandma fucking. Get your fucking shit in reality. Either way be going, they're after you for money, stupid Whoever it is that's 28 years younger than you. Nobody 28 years younger than you wants to fuck you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's in a relationship. She's in a relationship and she lives with a man. So it's like, figure it out, lady. Get your fucking self esteem in order.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you. Exactly. And that goes for everybody. Anybody. If you're in your 50s and someone in their 20s wants to fuck you and you're not famous, it's just because they think you're gonna buy them shit. That's it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's it.

[James Petregallo]

If you're in like a big band or something, you had a bunch of big hits in the 90s, you could probably get somebody younger than you that just thinks you're cool or whatever. But it's still for money either way, I suppose. Nobody wants your old balls. Nobody wants that. They just don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For guys for sure. But I mean, slim with an older woman in your 20s is. I don't know, it's pretty cool.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck out of here. Get the fuck out of here. I don't want. In your 20s, you can get tits that are great. Why would you do that? Same thing with the guys. You can get balls that are still close to the body. Why the fuck do you want ones hanging down at somebody's knees? It's bullshit. Nobody's fucking. You explained to me of the older lady you fucked and why was it Jimmy? Because she bought you shit. Why?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Because it was fun.

[James Petregallo]

No, you told me why. It was because she bought you shit. That's why. You said you had.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, she paid for dinner and shit. She wouldn't allow me to pay for dinner.

[James Petregallo]

Yes, because you're younger than her son. That's why.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was younger than the daughter that my friend was banging.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, exactly. Yes. She's a creepy, creepy old woman. And you're a disgusting fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She didn't let me. That's so wild.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's why you're. She's like, no, there's a reason why you're with me and it's because I pay for things and then you bang me. That's how this works. You're fucking this all up, dude. That's what she's saying. She's like, bro, you can't. You're messing it up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. You're making the whole thing weird by

[James Petregallo]

trying to pay for trying to pay. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to get like a sugar mama situation happening and you're trying to make this a relationship. I don't like it. Oh, God.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So he had Prior convictions. Also this guy, he's got problems, he's got issues.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a criminal.

[James Petregallo]

He's a bit of a. He's a bit of a criminal. He's a bit of a problem here. By 2001, they got together around 99ish, early 2000. By 2001, he's incarcerated at Lorraine Correctional Institution in Grafton, Ohio. Ohio on what's. I think it's a gun charge is what we've heard rumor of, but not positive. So he's scheduled to be released later on here. Won't be there for too long. But this affair, like we said, started well before prison. So Nate, 28 years younger, but they really seem to be getting close by the time he goes to jail. No, I don't know if that's because she's someone willing to hang with him while he's in jail

[Jimmy Whisman]

or maybe he's dangerous and she likes that.

[James Petregallo]

And it's hot part of it. Yeah. But it's very strange though, but when they started out around late 99, she was 55 and he was 27. Okay, that's double. That's too much. Too much. So it's very interesting here. Now Nate seems to really. In the correspondences we find out about from jail, he talks about building a world of our own and running away together and all this shit. Oh, running away together. You better find somewhere with a good, like good medical care, cuz she's pushing 60. Sweetheart, you gotta fucking. What are you talking about, bro?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Run away within reach of your parole

[James Petregallo]

officer, your parole officer, and a very good regional medical center. That's what you need between the two.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Perhaps a mayo.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, you need to check in every month. And her hips are getting a little fragile, so. Come on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, she's gonna need mammograms and all that shit.

[James Petregallo]

All sorts of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pretty frequently.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, all kinds of stuff going on. She's gonna have to have her fucking. Yeah, gonna have to have her pap

[Jimmy Whisman]

smeared, all that stuff.

[James Petregallo]

She's gonna have prolapses from all the areas happening pretty soon. You don't want that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Her heels are gonna hurt. There's gonna be some problems.

[James Petregallo]

It's very soon. By the way, running isn't really what you're talking about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, don't go running.

[James Petregallo]

No, don't go running.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Anyway, do a gingerbrisk walk.

[James Petregallo]

We're gonna go for a nice mall walking pace in an orthopedic shoe. Preferably in a very comfortable orthopedic shoe. He's gonna get her one of those walkers with the tennis balls on the bottom. It's gonna be great. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't run. Walk in hocus.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. December 11, 2001.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Robert is working a closing shift at the Youngstown terminal. He's by himself, in charge there doing whatever. There's a bus driver named Jim McCoy, who I can only assume is an ex convict. Maybe not. He saw Robert there at 4:30 in the afternoon working by himself, and he sees him doing that. And shortly after 4:30, this is that McCoy, the driver just left Youngstown, drives his bus to the Warren Greyhound terminal, the other one that they run. And there McCoy sees Donna with a young black male. Who is Nate. Nate's a young black male. And these two don't look like a couple. Let's just say that. No, no, she looks like an older white woman and he looks like a young black guy. They don't look like the most like. Oh, yeah, those two are probably together, like as a couple. It just doesn't look like it, you know what I mean? At all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Looks like a guy that she's helping out.

[James Petregallo]

Well, I don't know, like adopted son maybe, or like one of her son's friends or some sort of ward.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Possibly one of her grandchildren's. You know, father.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

Something. It's interesting. So he sees them together, and now the man identified himself to the bus driver as Nathaniel.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Nate's full name.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, he's gone by Nathaniel, huh?

[James Petregallo]

Well, that's his formal. He's going bus station formal right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. He's going. What's on the driver's license?

[James Petregallo]

When you meet at a Greyhound station, you give your full government name. That's how it works. Sorry, it's every time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

State id.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. So he said the two of them appeared to be in a hurry to leave. The bus driver said, and Nathaniel told the bus driver, quote, we're trying to get out of here. Okay. The security guard saw Robert leave the other Greyhound station at 9pm saying, I'm going home. So we know Robert was working at the Greyhound station till 9. Then he's going home. December 12, 2001. So this is that night at 12:01am so it's just technically December 12, but it's three hours and one minute after Robert left the Greyhound station there. December 12, 2001. So technically the next day. But 12:01am so barely just. I mean, it's three hours.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brand new day.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Three hours and one minute since Robert left the Greyhound station. Said he was going home a 911 call comes in to the Trumbull county dispatch here. It's Donna Roberts calling 911. Screaming into the phone. Oh, screaming like a banshee, Hysterical.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Big problem.

[James Petregallo]

Telling the dispatcher, there's something wrong with my husband. There's something wrong with my husband. The dispatcher, for the first few times she said it couldn't even make out what the hell she was saying. That's how crazy. She's just freaking out, hysterical, crying, shouting, you know, holding the phone away and yelling. Shit. Just crazy. So the dispatcher keeps her on the line, and they send the police. They're like. Once they get the address, they're like, all right, whatever's there, the police will handle. So we'll just send them. I don't know what you need, but we're sending everybody we have here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here they come.

[James Petregallo]

Here they come. So this is. The Howland Township is a very small department, obviously. And they get there pretty quick. It's a small town. Not a lot of distance to cover.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

It's about a mile from the police station, the house. So pretty close. Very close. So within minutes, the patrol cars are coming into the driveway here. First officers on the scene are the ones who are gonna end up putting the case together here. Well, the first one there is an officer named Albert Ray. And then the detectives start showing up. Sergeant Paul Monroe and Detective Sergeant Frank Dillon. And also the captain. This comes as well. This is what I mean. Murders don't happen a lot here. So if someone says, I don't know what's wrong with my husband, the police captain shows up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, send the cap.

[James Petregallo]

Small town, you know, that's a small town.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My husband is in distress. Well, what's the problem? I don't know. Well, the captain does. I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. The game warden. The mayor's gonna show up next. Like another.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Send them and find out what you need.

[James Petregallo]

So these are all the people that end up kind of handling the case basically, here. Now, when they pull up, they find Donna out in front of the house, standing out in front of the house. They go in the house. She says, in there. In there. So they go in there, just inside the door from the garage, face down in a pool of blood, huge amount of blood. They find Robert Fingerhut dead. Okay. Next to him is a fully loaded.38 caliber revolver.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fully loaded.

[James Petregallo]

Fully loaded. That's gonna be a thing here. He's fully clothed. There is, you know, his wallet is still on him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

There's no signs of any struggle in any of the rooms away from the kitchen. This didn't start in a bedroom and make its way to the kitchen or anything like that. So they said that during the hours Immediately following the 911 call, police observed Donna's emotional state fluctuating. Which will happen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

If you've watched someone who didn't murder someone find out about them dying, that happens a lot. That's what happens. First they freak out. They might hyperventilate, fall down, and they go, okay, I gotta get calm. What's going on? What happens? Then they sit there for a minute.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seems like the first is like imagining what happened, and that's shocking. And then once you get beyond that, then you start realizing, oh, God, they're dead. And then you get over that, and then you realize what dead means and they're not coming back. And then you freak out there.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. And you have a little dwell. And that's when you start thinking about, oh, shit, now what do I do? Oh, my God. And this is real. And then you start freaking out. But that's usually more of a quiet sobbing almost that I've seen. That's not a. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And then you go to a funeral and see the body, and then you freak out again. It's just a lot of freaking out.

[James Petregallo]

It's a lot of freaking out. And everybody is different too, because I've read in books too, where, like, homicide cops, if someone's dead in a family, they're immediately scoping which family member they're going to talk to as a contact and get help from. Because there's going to be a bunch of people fre. There's going to be a bunch of people doing histrionics, a bunch of people making it about themselves. And then there'll be like one person who's calm and collected going, what do we need to do? How do I help? You got to focus there. So everybody reacts differently. But they said that very much fluctuated. At times she'd be calm and quiet, and at other times she was crying and screaming, oh, my Robert. My Robert. Oh, she was doing that. Real Robert.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Now let's find out what's wrong with Robert here. And by the way, this is what she. She found this and said, something's wrong with my husband. By the way, he shot three times.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, that's impossible.

[James Petregallo]

You could pretty much see what's wrong with him probably by the fucking bullet holes in him in the chest, back and head.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, God. It's not good.

[James Petregallo]

Not good. And on the large pool of blood and everything else what kind of round did that? We'll find out in a minute. We're gonna go through the autopsy. The shot to the head, described in the autopsy as a penetrating gunshot wound to the top of the head.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Top of the head.

[James Petregallo]

Top of the head. Which is not normal, obviously. That's usually somebody ducking or on their knees. On their knees or on the ground or whatever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're already. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They also. One to the chest, one to the back. The shot to the head was the fatal one. Gunshot residue on the body indicated the head wound was inflicted at close range. So they said the muzzle of the gun very close to the head when it went off. In addition to the bullet wound, Robert had lacerations and abrasions on his left hand and on his head. So it looks like he was fighting as well. They're consistent with the struggle. So he definitely fought. The laceration on his left hand between the thumb and index finger was interesting because it would show that. This is crazy. They just found a wound at first on there. Then when they went through it, they figured out that the bullet went through the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Went through the webbing.

[James Petregallo]

Webbing and into his head. That's the top of the headshot. Went through his what, so he had his hand up. Yeah, top of the head. So he saw it coming, knew it was coming, and tried to put his hand up over it. And a bullet went through the webbing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, if it. If it hit a bone, it might have helped. It might have saved him. If it hit one of the hands in the bone, it might have deflected it a little bit. Here they're saying it is either a.38 or a.357.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know. That's.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, no, but it could. Bullets will deflect off bones like crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Crazy round, though.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, it is, but they still.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Powder.

[James Petregallo]

They deflect off bones a lot. That happens an awful lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

38.

[James Petregallo]

It happens tons. I've seen in autopsy shit. Deflecting off bones and things like that. Bones can be harder than we think sometimes. And bullets don't always break them. Sometimes they'll also could have slowed it down enough to where there's just so

[Jimmy Whisman]

much powder behind a.38 and a.357. Yeah, they just move so fast.

[James Petregallo]

I'm not sure if at that close of range it would have mattered, put it that way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a great point, too.

[James Petregallo]

From 10ft is a big difference from

[Jimmy Whisman]

a little bit of slowdown. But if it's coming right out the

[James Petregallo]

barrel right there, it probably Wouldn't make much of a difference now. It probably would go right through whatever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And even still though, it's crazy that he knew to put his hand up on top of his head.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That means they could see it. Yeah, he could see what they were doing.

[James Petregallo]

To me, it sounds like head and

[Jimmy Whisman]

hand to hand combat.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Got shot in the head and the back and the chest. Went down to his knees.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And then somebody did that while he tried to cover up. That's what it seems like to me. But I mean, I could be completely wrong. I'm not a crime scene reconstructionist. I don't know. Hey, everybody, Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about our SafeST sponsor, SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

SimpliSafe.com S I M P L I

[James Petregallo]

Safe.com Absolutely normal traditional security systems, they lock you in the long term, multi year contracts with huge cancellation fees. And that's ridiculous. I'm not doing that. I'm not. Especially when there's an option like Simplisafe, which they don't do any of that. So why would you want that? It's amazing. It's 247 professional monitoring our houses, our studios. This is what we trust it all to, to Simplisafe. It is absolutely safe. It's game changing and no long term contracts. I love, love, love the fact that they can see somebody coming, trying to break into your house or creeping around and talk to them and yell at them and tell them to get out of here. I love that so much. It's amazing. And you've listened to small town murder. You understand that bad things can happen and so do we. You know what I mean? We know this for a fact and you know we're responsible for protecting our homes. So we appreciate Simplisafe and we appreciate that we could install it ourselves. It's super easy. And you know, we knew we had to have our homes protected. Episode one of this show, we were like, oh God, we need this. So, I mean, honestly, it really, it fits in. It's easy to set up. It doesn't take all day or anything like that. You expect it to, and I do because I don't know what I'm doing. But half hour later, here I am with the security system installed. It's fantastic stuff here. It's fully customizable to fit your exact needs. The sensors, indoor outdoor cameras. It's backed by SimpliSafe's 24. 7 professional monitoring agents who dispatch emergency help when you need it. Over 5 million people value and trust Simplisafe with their home security every day. That includes us right here. So I'm telling you right now, get Simplisafe. We don't put our name behind a whole bunch of things like that, just any old brand. But we trust Simplisafe. Our listeners will get 50% off a new system when you sign up for professional monitoring. And your first month is free by visiting simplisafe.com small that's half off at S I M P L I safe.com small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Instacart makes grocery shopping easier. And just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart Shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app. Like rotisserie chicken. That's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved. And lettuce you'd actually pick yourself.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just leave a note for your shopper

[James Petregallo]

so they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today. So the state investigators do have crime scene reconstructionists and they have an idea of what they think happened. They think that this didn't start in the kitchen but started in the garage. They said that Robert came home, pulled into the garage, parked, got out of his car, and they think that's where he was attacked.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

In the garage. They said he was beaten, pistol whipped. Also, they think there's abrasions that are consistent with a pistol whipping. So that would make sense. If somebody hit him, he doesn't go down and fights back and takes a swing. Because in the movies when you pistol whip somebody, they fall right down, unconscious. I mean, they're out, almost dead, it's almost over. I mean, they're just, they could be standing there perfect. They'll just. And dead. I mean, on the ground. It's like in wrestling when someone gets hit with the belt, they're unconscious no matter what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's crazy how heavy that thing is.

[James Petregallo]

It's insane that it's a, you know, a millimeter thick piece of metal and it's just out cold. Just can't stop the guy. Even though I've seen him get punched in the head and kicked 40 times in the last five minutes. That makes a lot of sense.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I've seen him get thrown off the rope and into a boot and they're fine.

[James Petregallo]

Still that belt, though, watch out. But yeah, pistol whipping like the first Beverly Hills Cop. When he walks in and the guy hits him from behind, he just. Betty Murphy's unconscious in the first one. I mean, boom. In the hallway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Crazy how quick you can sneak up on somebody and just whack them with a snub nose. You never see them again in the movie. They're gone, they're out. May as well be dead.

[James Petregallo]

He woke up later. Like, what. What happened? I mean, sleepy time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So that's what they think. He was pistol whipped. He fought a little bit, leaving abrasions on his hand and head. Made it through the door from the garage into the kitchen. Probably trying to get away from the person. And it was inside the. The kitchen door. That's when the shots were fired.

[Jimmy Whisman]

One in the back first, probably.

[James Petregallo]

They were all very close range. And they said the last one, top of the head, through his hand, was probably when he'd already fallen and was on the ground. Because otherwise, top of the head makes no sense. Unless the guy's 8 foot 3. Doesn't make a lot of sense. So the blood spatter and the body position established the kitchen as the death site and the garage as the beginning of it all. And the doorway is the root there. Obviously they said the shooter would have walked through Robert's blood on the way out. So they look for that. And there are footprints in the blood.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bingo.

[James Petregallo]

They have footprints of a certain shoe pattern, a certain size, and they're pretty goddamn good and clean too. Oh, boy, that's gonna help later. Okay, so they're processing the crime scene. Obviously this is a lot to process while they're doing this. At 3:30am the house phone rings. At the house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Someone calls the crime scene at 3:30

[Jimmy Whisman]

in the morning, calls Fingerhut's house.

[James Petregallo]

Calls Fingerhut's and Donna's house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So Detective Sergeant Monroe answers it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And there's a pause, and then they hung up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hmm.

[James Petregallo]

They pause, which is amazing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Did he identify himself as a police officer?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he said, yeah. Hello, Crime scene Detective.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So and so.

[James Petregallo]

Crime scene. There you go. So he does that, which is interesting here. There's a pause and a hang up on that. So a lot of times too, people call. Murderers will call crime scenes. Sometimes it's very strange.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who knows anything?

[James Petregallo]

In one book I was reading, this guy killed a guy who was a debt collector. He worked for one of those rental places. Places weekly rent a center type joints. And he would go around in Baltimore and do his rounds every week. And Collect. And he just disappeared in the middle of his rounds one day. And he would carry large amounts of cash because he would be collecting along the way. And some dude just killed him and put him in his basement and then left. And then afterwards called the police and were like, yo, yeah, it's me. It's my house. And. And I killed him. And the cops thought he was a prank caller, so they hung up on him. And then they were like, hey, what's the name of the guy that lives here? And they told him, the guy goes, oh, shit, I just hung up on the guy. Fuck. They're like, he's gonna fuck himself. And the guy called back and he's like. And they were like, no, no, no, you're good. Yeah, no, come on over. We got you covered. We'll come over.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He told me, go fuck myself. That's not complaint, please.

[James Petregallo]

It was real weird. So later on this. This call is traced to Donna Roberts cell phone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, she's not. After a while, she's out of the scene. Once they're processing, you can't hang out there. So they also said that it was weird. Over the course of the evening, her demeanor was odd. They said that Detective Sergeant Monroe and other officers noticed that quote, when police investigators talked extensively, they no longer heard her shouting. She'd be like, oh, my Robert. Oh, my Robert. But then when they were in a big talk and whatever, then she'd be sitting calmly. So they said when they entered the room where she was then she'd start wailing again. Oh, my robber. But when they were doing other shit and she was separate from them, she was very quiet. She'd only wail when she goes if someone was there. How long was she gone?

[Jimmy Whisman]

She had to leave the house, right, because her cell phone is calling the house.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. After a while, they take her out of there because she's just at the crime scene. So she goes to a relative's house after a while. Now, they don't know at first that that's who called, but they find out later through the records. They said when a detective checked on Roberts in her bedroom because she had been quiet, she began shouting again upon seeing him, like, see if she's all right in there. And they went and saw her as soon as he came in the room. Oh, God. Yeah, it's horrible. Which is interesting. Yeah, very interesting.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Teenager trying to call in sick to school.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Oh, my stomach. Oh, God, it's horrible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, it hurts.

[James Petregallo]

It hurts. So they said. One of the officers at the scene said that he, quote, didn't notice any tears coming from her eyes. Do these giant, you know, bouts of hysteria.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which is interesting. Which a lot of people when they fake crying, they're not good at. That's the part they don't get. You need snot and tears in there to make that shit believable.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. It's fascinating how many. I haven't seen a real good cry on TV in so long.

[James Petregallo]

I'm trying to think. The last one I saw, I just saw the documentary.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, which one?

[James Petregallo]

The Should I Marry a Murderer? Documentary with the Scottish people. And she cried a lot. She should have been crying because she's dumb as shit, but she.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The last one I found was the. That mentally challenged girl that was kidnapped by Ariel Castro at that point.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The one that he fucking hated. That he was so mean to her. Crying in court is so horrible.

[James Petregallo]

Like, she came over and forced her way in the house. You kidnapped these people and you're like, ah, I don't like the one I kidnapped. Sorry, sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Blowing snot bubbles in court. It's. Yeah, it's so horrible. I feel so bad for her.

[James Petregallo]

That is bad. Yeah. Should I Marry a Murderer Documentary. You get to see a doctor cry a lot. She cries a lot. All right, so no tears. The cops notice this and write it in their report. No tears.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She doesn't cry.

[James Petregallo]

She's not a crier there. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Very dehydrated.

[James Petregallo]

Well, she's keeping it. That's what it is. She's conserving her water. That's how it goes to. So 10am Detective Monroe visits Donna at her brother's house. By that time, she gives them written consent to search everything in the residence. They still need consent from her to search everything. Just to make it official. You know what I mean? I mean, they could search around the body and, you know, but to really go through everything with a fine tooth comb, they need a search. So she enthusiastically signs it and says, quote, do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard who killed my Robert.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Exclamation point.

[James Petregallo]

Don't. Yeah, you fucking search and search. I don't care what you have to do, you find that son of a bitch there. So anyway, other things she wrote down are. Nate and Donna were writing each other a lot. A lot of letters. We find out from the search, by the way. Oh, when they go to search her house and they search everything, they find a whole lot of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With Nate here, they find love letters and shit.

[James Petregallo]

Tons of them. Tons of them. The letters are Addressed on Donna's end to a P.O. box she set up in Warren because she didn't want Robert to see letters coming to the house from jail. Nate writes from prison on fucking whatever, like a paper bag. Chunk he writes in. Whatever paper he can acquire in prison is what he writes on. Which reminds me of Dope Sick Love. When he's sitting on the step, he's like, yo, man, tell him how you feel, man. Let it all out, man. Tell him how you feel. And he's writing a crack. He's on so much crack. Writing a fucking love letter to his imprisoned girlfriend on a paper bag on

[Jimmy Whisman]

an inside out McDonald's bag.

[James Petregallo]

It is wild. And he's going, yo, tell her how you feel, man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Tell her how you feel. His friend's saying, put your heart around the. The fry's oil stains.

[James Petregallo]

Sad part was it was generic. It wasn't even a McDonald's back.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It wasn't even a real.

[James Petregallo]

Nah, it was like he got like a bodega when he got a pack of cigarettes or something. It was even sadder. Just the brown paper, just plain as can be. Plain as can be. So that's what he sends. And it's 285 letters in total that they're going to find.

[Jimmy Whisman]

300 pages.

[James Petregallo]

285. 145 letters from Nate to Donna they found sitting in her dresser drawer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She kept every one of them.

[James Petregallo]

Every goddamn one. Well, maybe there could have been 400, I guess. Then there's 140 from Donna to Nate that is found in a brown paper bag with Nate's name written on it in the trunk of Donna's car, which is parked in the garage at the crime scene.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

His name is written on it. Just in case you don't know that all the letters are addressed to Nate's bag.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't think that would look bad, huh?

[James Petregallo]

Nope. Not at all. No. She said you search and you go ahead. So more of those letters in a bit here. All right, all right. Now, first of all, they do find from there that he's in prison. So they're like, okay, well, that's probably one suspect we don't have to worry about since he's in prison. Yeah. Then they find out, oh, he was released two days ago.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

He's released from prison on December 9th. That's not good. So December 12th in the afternoon, Donna goes to talk to the police. They got some questions here. Obviously. 185 of them, at least 285 this one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Explain this one. 285.

[James Petregallo]

285. It's worse. Yeah. 185 would be all day. All day. Well, they don't bring that up at first. At first. First they say, tell us about your life with Robert. They treat her like a widow at this point. So she describes a loving relationship between her and Robert. Between her and Robert, Yeah. A loving relationship. But she also stated that this is amazing, that she and Robert were a cool couple, which. What do you think that means?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I know what that means.

[James Petregallo]

You know exactly what that means. And quote, he did his thing and she did hers. Yeah, that's what he said. We're a cool couple. Meaning she lets me have the lair. Young prison dick. And he can do whatever he wants. The Greyhound station.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So cool couple doing his thing now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We're a cool couple.

[James Petregallo]

We're a cool couple. God damn it. He describes her relationship. Yeah. As loving here, but sexually, you know, Like I said, they're cool. It's all good. So they said, well, who have you been in a sexual relationship with? We'd like to talk to them. And she said, well, for about six months, I've been banging some guy named Carlos. So there's him, there's Carlos. There's also a sexual relationship with another guy named Santiago that I've been fucking for a while too. He said, I tried. She said, I tried to help Santiago, and I was trying to help him out, you know, and fuck him at the same time, but he ended up stealing money and a gun from me, so I don't talk to him anymore.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he stole from me. So they said, anyone else besides Carlos and Santiago that you've been seeing? And she says, no, there's nobody else. I told you, everybody. Oh, that's all. So then the cops say, well, what about a guy named Nate Jackson? Her quote. Yes. I forgot about him. Imagine fucking someone 30 years younger than you and forgetting about it. Just. Oh, wow. I get so many lineal feet of penis on a monthly basis from different people. I forgot about that one. I don't even know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm sure Nate's gonna be thrilled to know that.

[James Petregallo]

Just forgot all about him. She said, oh, yeah, that's right. I've been dating him for about two years, but I forgot he existed.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they said, well, he was in jail recently in prison. Were you calling and exchanging letters? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were writing back and forth and call. Totally forgot about that guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, see, that's why I forgot. Out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, it Slipped. Jesus Christ.

[James Petregallo]

This is how out of sight he was, though. She then realizes that she has to tell the truth about this. She said, well, they said, well, when's the last time you saw him? Must have been a long time ago if you forgot about him. She said, December 9. Two days ago. Three days ago, when he got out of jail, I picked him up at the Lorraine Correctional Institution and then left him in Youngstown at a house on Worst Wirt Street. So, you know, I should have probably remembered him. You're right. You're right. Considering I still have. I probably still have his dried semen on a part of my body somewhere. Possibly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It may still be dripping.

[James Petregallo]

It's possible. I keep pretty moist. Let's just say that I keep myself lotioned up good. It could be anywhere.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If I'm wearing the same underwear from yesterday. 100% certain is DNA.

[James Petregallo]

It's in there. A lot of it. So she said she last spoke to him over the telephone on the morning of December 11th. So the morning of the murder. Now, they know from people at the Greyhound station that on the afternoon of December 11, she was in the Greyhound station with a guy named Nathaniel who fits this guy's description. How many young black guys named Nathaniel are you hanging out with, lady? So? So they're like, okay, so they're collecting her inconsistencies. And then she says, look, Robert, like I said, we were cool and cool. We were cool. So you might want to look into. You might want to look into people he was seeing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, people that aren't so goddamn cool.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Because Robert, by the way, also was going both ways, quote, unquote.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

She's saying he was bisexual.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And said that Robert had a friend named Bobby. Oh, that was his guy he was banging. She couldn't even come up with a different name that wasn't his. It's crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She almost said Robbie, but she. Yeah, that'd be too obvious.

[James Petregallo]

Bobby. Bobby with a B. Yeah, lots of Bs in that name. She also said that Robert had been, quote, acting kind of nutty for the week and a half before he died, which she just attributed to whatever relationship goofiness was going on with him and Bobby.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, now, there is absolutely zero evidence, evidence or corroboration that Robert was bisexual.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And then he had a friend named Bobby.

[James Petregallo]

There's zero evidence that he's had any other relationships. And they could not find a human being named Bobby that he interacted with. Ever. Essentially, this Bobby. They asked her to track him down. She didn't Know they tried to track him down. No Bobby anywhere to be found. Bobby is in the window.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Feels perhaps made up.

[James Petregallo]

Bobby in the breeze at this point. Yeah. So they're like, that's interesting. A bisexual relationship with an imaginary man. That sounds plausible. Okay. So they said, okay, do you have a cell phone? You have a cell phone, right? Can I look at it?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She searched her purse and said, oh, I must have left it at home.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Okay. And then you gotta understand too, because everybody now, your phone goes with you to the bathroom, but it goes with you everywhere. In 2001, your phone was just a phone. You would just leave it sitting somewhere. Cause unless you wanted to make a call, it was useless for anything else. There wasn't even a fucking camera on it yet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In 2001, you could certainly play the Snake game.

[James Petregallo]

You could play Tetris possibly, if you had a really good phone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That Snake game was mad addicting.

[James Petregallo]

There's a lot of those shitty games that were addicting. So Detective Monroe tells her that their call that came to the crime scene at 3:38am came from her cell phone, right? So she sits there for a minute, like, huh, that's weird. How did that happen? I don't gasp so easy. My cell phone. And then she comes and she figures it out. She says, oh, I know Nate must have had the phone. He's always borrowing it. He's been out of jail for three days. So he's only been borrowing it for three days, number one. And number two, you didn't remember this guy 12 minutes ago, right? And now he's got. Currently has your cell phone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is the worst lying. You should have done it so fast. I had to see if it was real.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's so easy to watch that call,

[James Petregallo]

I had to sit. But why'd you hang up? That's the thing. Why would you hang up?

[Jimmy Whisman]

As soon as I heard Cops, I hung up. I was like, it is real.

[James Petregallo]

That would sound better than.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I guess I must have borrowed it to somebody.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that sounds. I mean, that would have sounded better, what you have over here. Even though she was the one who called it in, so she goddamn knows it's real. It's not like they notified her of it and she had to call to make sure. Like, still, though, it sounds better than, I don't know. Sounds better than a guy I forgot about has my phone. Must have it. My bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't even know if that's for sure.

[James Petregallo]

He must have it. He's always borrowing it. He's always Borrowing at that guy always so. Still the same day, December 12, 2001, Robert's vehicle is found.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, it was taken.

[James Petregallo]

It was gone. It is taken. It's found in Youngstown, three blocks from Wirt street, which is where Donna told the police she dropped off Nate when he got out of prison. Like three blocks from the house that he's supposed to be at.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

A forensic team finds blood on the driver's side visor and in other areas around the automobile. Yeah, not good. Then over the next few days, police continue to investigate things that they hear. And they end up at the Wagon Wheel Motel. Which sounds nice, just gorgeous. Beautiful place here. They find out that Roberts had registered at the Days Inn. Also, because they find out that Donna and Nate had spent the night that he got out of prison together at the Wagon Wheel Motel. Then she went over to the Days Inn and registered for a week and paid for it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, let's fuck it. All the worst hotels in America.

[James Petregallo]

All of the most mediocre shitholes there are. At least this is like a chain shithole. Not the Wagon Wheel Motel. Yikes. So they know that they were planning on at least having Nate have a place for a week, or possibly her, too. So they do ballistics. And the bullets that killed Robert come from a totally different.357 or.38, not the one next to his body. So they had to make sure of that. Obviously, he's got a.350, a possible.38 slugging his head, and a.38's lying next to him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, that gun also fires both rounds.

[James Petregallo]

That's the other. That's why they say they don't know which one it came out of. So they said that they can't find the other weapon, though they'd love to find the actual murder weapon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, love to know what did it. Because this thing's fully loaded. And how did he not get a round off in defense? That's fast.

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing. They must have been bum rushed pretty fast. If he had time to throw a left hook, he has time to shoot and get a gun out. You know what I mean? It's easier to shoot than throw a left hook.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Or perhaps he's trying to get away. Cause the gun's on the inside of the house. Gets into the house, grabs the gun, but is shot two times before he can let one off.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, well, we'll find out here. So there's an explanation to this, which is the fun part. Now, Michael, his son, said he was more than just a dead Body. He was a person that people cared about, so he was very upset with the whole thing. And this Michael, too. He'll keep having to come back from Ohio, basically draining his bank account to keep coming back here to go to court hearings and to go out. Where's he from? He lives in Florida. The son.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, geez.

[James Petregallo]

He's gotta keep coming back. Now. Remember those letters they found in the dresser? Room 285 of them and in a paper bag marked Nate? Yeah. Okay, here are the letters here. They start reading them, and they got a pretty good idea what's going on once they start reading them. Here is Nate to Donna, early October 2001, quote, why don't you leave Robert and let's carry on with a world of our own? Or let me do what I was going to do to him. Because you know what? That was our little thing. So you better not go and try and get to know someone else to do it, because I told you, you better not determine. Sorry. He spells no. N, O, K, N, O, W. He spells no like that. He says, who does that? Nate, you better not try to get no one else to do it. K, N, O, W. No, no one else. That's why I was like, you better not get to know someone. But, no, he means it this way, because I told you it's getting done when I come home.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Less than a week later, he writes back again. Donna, I got it already planned out on how we're gonna take care of the Robert situation. Question mark. For some reason, which. That's not a question. That's very much a statement. And, baby, it's the best plan ever, exclamation point. Because, Donna, it's now time that we really get to be together so that we can really see the true side of our love. Because I'm tired of not being able to be with you. Oh, boy. Okay. It's the best plan ever. He says.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He said that.

[James Petregallo]

He said the second sentence. Did you hear? He said, and, baby, it's the best plan ever. All right, so interesting. The next. Donna keeps writing back, saying, like, are you sure? You know, I mean, we don't have to do this, but maybe if you're sure, Blah, blah, blah. Nate's next letter to her in October of 2001. Donna, I don't care what you say, but Robert has to go holy. Now. It's getting pretty specific and clear what's going on here. And he always spells and a N, by the way, every time. And I'm not going to let you Stop me this time. And, Donna, you know that I've always wanted to live my life with you and only you. But every time I wanted to take care of the situation by myself, you wouldn't never let me. Wouldn't never. That means she would let him. Yes. Yeah, it's a double negative there, chief, because you wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do to make you happy, and that was get rid of him. So, Donna, can I do this so that we can go on and live happy, and then maybe we can sell the house and move on somewhere else on our own, and I'm not gonna be happy until that happens? He's gonna find a nice retirement community with his. And the best part is we can live in 55 and over communities. That's the best part.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know if he's allowed.

[James Petregallo]

I'll sneak in. It's fine. You can buy the house. I'll just, you know, no one's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'll get a gray wig.

[James Petregallo]

It's all good. Don't sweat it. Well, shit, I'm black. They don't know how old I am.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a great point, too.

[James Petregallo]

Walk up and be like, I'm 63 years old. People go, okay, possible. You wouldn't challenge it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, you'll look like an asshole.

[James Petregallo]

You never know. Yeah, you never know. So he. He said. So this is. He's been, it seems like, really talking about this for a long. Just, come on. Let me kill your husband, please.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And he's pushing the issue.

[James Petregallo]

Please. Yeah, yeah, he's pushing it. Totally. Totally.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And she's saying things like, I don't know,

[James Petregallo]

maybe if you're good, we'll stop at McDonald's on the way home. And then you can murder my husband. But only if you're good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If you listen real good all day,

[James Petregallo]

if you're really good while mommy has her appointment, you can maybe kill my husband. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But only if you also dig out the trash when you're home.

[James Petregallo]

Please do that. Which, yeah, every time I wanted to take care of the situation by myself, you wouldn't never let me. That's. That's very telling. Here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's not fair.

[James Petregallo]

It's not fair, Mom. So Donna's response, this is mid October 2001 quote. You know, you can always count on me. You always could. It'll just be a little tougher now because he gives me $100 a week for everything and then makes me write checks to keep track of it all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's gotta balance the checkbook about It.

[James Petregallo]

Well, then he can tell where all the money is. He just gives her piles of cash. She can go, you know, give it to prisoners who are fucking her and wanting to kill him. So it makes sense.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Excellent.

[James Petregallo]

It's a smart move.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't go putting this on somebody's books. You have $20 a day.

[James Petregallo]

You're not buying anybody's Ramen noodles with this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, no. I should be able to sponsor you for $20 a day.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. So I think this was in response to him needing more money. Also because she's saying, look, I'll help you all I can, but, you know, I don't have any money now. She says, quote, and I haven't been allowed. And it's on all caps. Allowed to use any of my 52 charge cards. She brings it up. She brings this up constantly, by the way, about the charge cards.

[Jimmy Whisman]

52 credit cards. Good Christ. That's one a week.

[James Petregallo]

It's wild. Yeah. She's very proud of the fact that she has 52 charge cards, though. She brings it up, up quite often.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, it sounds like it's an achievement that she never thought that she would get. It's like being a million miler or something.

[James Petregallo]

But this is not an achievement. You're not in debt. If you're a million miler, you get bonuses. This is like 52 people will allow me to pay them back money that I like. What the hell, every month accomplishment is this? It's wild with interest, but still.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So I haven't been allowed to use any of my 52 charge cards. And then dash emergency only. I'm not used to living like this. I'm used to having plenty of cash for whatever I want and buying everything I want. Maybe those days will return again soon. Do whatever you want to him asap, she says. Do whatever you want to him asap. Last word. Amen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Amen.

[James Petregallo]

She fucking amends. You can go ahead and murder my husband message. Amen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

What the fuck are you doing, lady? Thank you for this food. Wow. Nate's response is even crazier to the asap, amen bullshit here. Okay? He responds with a sketch. It's not a letter. It's a drawing. Yeah, a drawing of Robert's tombstone with his name on it. All that shit. And in the inscription, the epitaph is rest in piss. That's his fucking. He's very creative, this date.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And what is. What is. What is Nate so mad about?

[James Petregallo]

That's what I'm wondering. He seems more pissed off than her. I don't know why. I guess because she should be able to spend as much money as she wants on him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And Nate doesn't like seeing his lady suffer, man.

[James Petregallo]

I guess so. She's suffering. She's really suffering.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know, you take somebody's discover from them, I swear to Christ. That's not easy, man.

[James Petregallo]

It's disturbing when things are happening to your mom and you can't control them. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What's in her wall? Not capital one. I'll tell you that right now.

[James Petregallo]

Capital one and everything else, but she's not allowed to use them, unfortunately.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. She might be the last person in the country to have a diners club.

[James Petregallo]

I think she does. She's got it all, man. Whatever. That telly Suvard shit that he was club.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't think I've ever seen 52 commercials for credit cards.

[James Petregallo]

That's about all I've seen 52 of is commercials for credit cards. I never heard of anyone having 52 credit cards. Imagine anybody. Somebody watched TV for six months and then said, I'll take all of them. Every card I've seen advertised. I'll take them local ones from a bank. I don't give a shit. Everything I got.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, there was that old trope of the 80s and late 90s of like when somebody would unroll all their fucking credit cards.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it was a joke, but it still wasn't 52. And that doesn't mean anything like 20 would come out. And that was like, ah, ha ha, 52.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You wouldn't.

[James Petregallo]

That would touch the ground and go past the other person. You'd have to really ravel those up. It would take a long time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So they have a fucking fishing reel to roll over.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So he responds, rest in piss in the tombstone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Because he's mad, because he's a little

[James Petregallo]

upset about some stuff. Then in late October 2001 here, he says, fuck. Nate says. And then after that, you don't ever have to worry about making no more K n o w more excuses to him because he will no longer be with us after 12 hours, 10:01.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, how much more specific could he be?

[James Petregallo]

I mean, good God, by the way, if you're European, that's December, not October, not October 12th. Yeah. That means December 10th, 2001. He died on December 11th, 2001, by

[Jimmy Whisman]

the way, after December 10th, he will no longer be with us. Rest in piss. He may as well say, I'm going to murder a person on December 11th.

[James Petregallo]

Not even he'll no longer be a problem for us because you're gonna. He'll no longer be with us.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is literally the only time you say that.

[James Petregallo]

He might as well have said he'll be passed away by then. There's no other more obvious way to put it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Even when a company says, oh, they're no longer with us, I go, oh, that's too bad. That's too.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So sorry to hear it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How's his wife taking the news?

[James Petregallo]

So he says, and then it gets worse, by the way, he says, and then it'll be me and you totally and completely. Then she goes on to say, hey Donna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hey Donna.

[James Petregallo]

Hey Donna. Just think, come 12 hours, 11 minutes and 1 second you'll be waking up to me. Or maybe we'll give it a couple of days to let things look cool. And then after the funeral, baby, when I come home, I'm never leaving. And we're only doing it like that just to make it look good. Meaning I'd murder him and then we would fuck in his blood. But you know how the police will frown upon that. So basically I'll take a couple days and then it's all meant to be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'll stay at the wagon wheel til

[James Petregallo]

30 days in for a week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

To make it look good. All's I need is for my baby not to worry and leave everything else. Okay. Up to me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I got it.

[James Petregallo]

I got this. I am a very, very seasoned murderer. I'll take care of this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I just wrote my whole plan down and mailed it to you.

[James Petregallo]

And mailed it through the jail, by the way, which can monitor anything anyway. And even if they don't, then it's in a fucking. This is in a dresser drawer in the house of the murder scene that

[Jimmy Whisman]

you gave in writing permission to the police to search.

[James Petregallo]

You knew. You need to catch that bastard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. The evidence is upstairs.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So if you go over this the amount of times, you'll no longer have to worry about making no more excuses to him. Okay. Right there, that's pretty incriminating.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's pretty incriminating.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Then the next thing. Because he'll no longer be with us. That's very incriminating. Then he adds a date to it to really seal it in there to sear the flavor in, you know, you gotta sear it real good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And if there was a question that maybe they're gonna give him a trip, they're gonna pay for him to.

[James Petregallo]

No run away together.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's a sketch of his fucking Tombstone.

[James Petregallo]

It's a sketch of that. Yeah. Then she says, and we'll be me and you. Completely. Okay. Yeah. Maybe it's after that. That's when he gets out of jail. They're going to run away together. Then he just doubles down. Hey, Donna, just think, come 12 11, you'll be waking up to me. Or maybe we'll let things cool down for a couple days to look cool. He says, so this is how we're also going to trick the cops is also a bad way to put. And then he mentions the funeral. Then after the funeral, when I come home, I'm never leaving. So that just in case you thought it was just we're going to run away together. No, no, no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

After the funeral of who? He'll be dead, Robert, who will be resting in piss.

[James Petregallo]

Resting in piss. I designed the tombstone for him. You can put that in, give that right to the fucking Stonecutter and he'll make it perfectly. Then November comes along here and they're still writing things. Get into logistics by then.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

He starts asking her to buy him murder supplies that he's gonna need. Okay, here's one from Nate to Donna. Late October, early November, 2001. Okay. Quote, well, I see now you know that I'm about my business when I get out as far as our little situation. So that means you're seeing I'm serious about killing your husband.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now, I'm dead serious. And you know that. Now.

[James Petregallo]

And get me a size large leather gloves and see if you can find me a ski mask hat. Okay?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, let me. These are the murder supplies. I'm gonna need basically whatever OJ had get me that. I'm gonna need that some Bruno Mali's, just all the whole deal. I want everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

See if you can use Bronco.

[James Petregallo]

Is there a used Bronco around? I'll escape in it. Okay, so see if you can find me a ski mask hat. Then he says, and I need them handcuffs you have. And it's mandatory, so get them for me. Because the way that I'm going to do it is going to be right. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

So this is. I need murder supplies. I need handcuffs so I can murder him. And then, you know, to hide evidence, I need some other shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I need anonymity and a way to lock a person down. That is a horrifying letter.

[James Petregallo]

Them handcuffs you have that Donna already had. So apparently she has handcuffs. And I think they've probably used them before. It sounds like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Doesn't sound like she's used them for kidnapping.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. Then her letter to him talking about what she bought him. I also went to four stores and finally found your ski mask and boxers. And a pair of beautiful fleece lined black leather gloves. Beautiful. They're lovely. You'll keep them forever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

These are lovely Isotoners.

[James Petregallo]

Oh my God. So then he writes back here and he says, yes, I'm taking care of that the next night because I told you that I'm tired of living like this when I don't have to. And after that, will you get me a 2002 Cadillac Deville?

[Jimmy Whisman]

A brand new.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, this isn't. Now we want to be together. He's asking for a specific model and year of a car brand new for this brand fucking new Cadillac. Okay. He said, that's the new one. Well, it's December of, you know, they're out already, the 2001.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's been out for three months, but

[James Petregallo]

it's still looking good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If you get it in December, people go, wow, what is that, a 2001? No, this is next year's model.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Surprise. Doesn't want an 03. So he then says, and even if I gotta come to the house and shoot Robert in his fucking head, you're gonna be with me. My God. Add all of these letters up to this. This is bonkers.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is there a public notary? That's the only way he could have incriminated himself harder.

[James Petregallo]

Any harder? Yeah, or if he handed it to a guard and said, can you proofread this for me? I'm not good at spelling. This is insanity. What are you talking about? In addition to the 285 letters, there are also. Well, there's a lot more, but there are 18 specific recorded phone calls in their own voices that are also saved. The phone inmate system, it records all the cords, all the calls automatically. They're kept for at least six months afterwards.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's got a system of flagging stuff too, right?

[James Petregallo]

There has to be something like that. I think it's mainly they're saved and then if anything happens, they can go back and look at it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

You can't monitor everybody on these calls for six months. It's not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But there should be today at least. There should be something monitoring it that flags when it hears certain words. Well, I guess a lot of people on these calls are talking in code too, so you wouldn't hear it.

[James Petregallo]

They're talking. And on top of that too, the prisons are not going to update their phone systems. You're only getting charged 485aminute. So God forbid they could actually. You know what I mean? That's just a scam to make fucking. They're not making this bullshit. It's disgusting. That shit is disgusting. Remember what fucking Arpaio is doing?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Piece of shit scumbag.

[James Petregallo]

Robbing people's fucking families blind. Terrible shit. So anyway, that's what's going on now. The recordings are kept. Nate, despite knowing everything is recorded, called Donna on the prison line at least 18 times that are on the record. Record. Openly discussing the murder. He talked about. He used code.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, he did.

[James Petregallo]

The Robert situation at one point. Our little thing. That thing he would talk about, you know, that thing we're going to do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He did that thing for you. Who do you think?

[James Petregallo]

Hey, I did that. I took care of that thing for you. That was Pete the killer that said that in Goodfellow. It was Pete. I took care of that thing for you. We know what that thing was. I used to do a joke about that way back in the day. You know what it is? Pete the killer. What else could it be?

[Jimmy Whisman]

The fuck else would he be doing?

[James Petregallo]

So this is interesting now. This is October 25th, 2001. Nate, I'll be home to you December 9th. All the worries will be over, baby. She just kind of says, okay. He says, the next day after, I'm going to. I already got it in my mind. My mind made up. I'm going to go ahead and do that the next day. Okay. All right. And she says, quote, oh, I just wrote to you that I didn't think you really meant it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

He says, what? My mind is made up. My mind is made. I wrote in my letters. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, I don't like to talk too much like that. You don't?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I like to draw like that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And write everything out in longhand. But when I come home, you know what I mean? It's going to be full detail. I'm going to let you know how I'm going to do it and everything. I'm going to do it for sure the next day. Yeah, dude, like that is so incriminating and especially in his own voice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's amazing.

[James Petregallo]

When you go before a jury, it's one thing to have something written down, because he can even say, I didn't write that somebody else could have been. When it's someone's own voice and you're looking at them sitting there and you know that voice comes out of their fucking head and you're hearing it, that is so incriminating. It's not good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And their reaction to it has got to be outstanding.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

As soon as you press play in. Course, watching their face as those words come through has got to be so fun.

[James Petregallo]

Watch the Sarah Boone trial and you'll see it. When they play those videos of her with him, imagine what the look on

[Jimmy Whisman]

that jury says, is how you talk to me. Is how you talk to me.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking yelling at him, telling him he smells, fucking screaming in his face.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Recording him in the suitcase while she's drunk and yelling at him.

[James Petregallo]

That's my name. Don't wear it out. While he's dying in a suitcase begging for oxygen. That's my name. Don't worry it out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sarah. I can't breathe. I can't breathe when you're choking me.

[James Petregallo]

I can't breathe. You're choking me. I can't breathe when you cheat on me. That's what she said. I can't breathe when you cheat on me. That is not the same, lady. I'm sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, no, I mean it, Sarah. I'm in a Samsonite.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's how I. That's how I feel. My heart's in a Samsonite. My heart's.

[James Petregallo]

My heart is zipped up with a combo lock, and I don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My heart's been beating like a gorilla beats a Samsonite.

[James Petregallo]

CSA goes through my thoughts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Have you seen the commercials? Hello. I'm talking to you.

[James Petregallo]

Hello. That's my name. Don't wear it out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's already dead. And she's kicking the suitcase. I'm talking to you. Do you remember that commercial?

[James Petregallo]

Hello. Hello.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ah, she's the worst.

[James Petregallo]

So that's what this reminds. That's what that reminds me of, though, because everyone in court. I didn't get to see the jury, obviously, but everyone in the court was like, yeah, like, looking at her like, oh, you're a monster. So, okay, in this conversation, that is okay. This is November 8th. Nate tells Donna that he wanted Robert to see Donna performing oral sex on Nate before he kills Robert. So now it's worse. I want you to blow me in front of him before I murder him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now I need him to see why.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I really want to be a real jerk here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I need to humiliate him even though

[James Petregallo]

there's no beef with them. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Robert doesn't even know this is happening, does he?

[James Petregallo]

No idea. None at all. He's just working every day, has no fucking idea. So anyway, one of his plans is force Donna to blow him in front of Robert. Well, not force her, because she'd be voluntarily blowing him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Force Robert to watch her consensually blowing him.

[James Petregallo]

And before he goes away is a funny thing too. Like he's gonna leave. Then late November 2001, there's a little debate here. They're getting a plan, but Donna's getting nervous about it. She's nervous about leaving evidence behind. So they're talking about how not to leave forensic evidence behind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a good concern.

[James Petregallo]

And it's 2001. So law and order has been on for like 12 years. People know a little more. The OJ happened in 96. That was a lesson in forensics and DNA and shit and how not to collect it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

CSI is three years in by now, right?

[James Petregallo]

Is it 2001? I think is around when CSI started.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think it came out like 99 maybe.

[James Petregallo]

That's possible. It's very possible. But all those shows kind of things are becoming popular. This is becoming. Where people know stuff. So this is late November 2001. Okay. Nate says, you know what I'm saying? The next day after, you know what I told you I wanted to do, right? And Donna says, I'm afraid Nate. And Nate says, what you man? I don't know what that is. What you man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think it means what you mean. Is it typed maybe?

[James Petregallo]

What you mean? This is the transcript from court.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay. It's probably what you mean.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Somebody might have mistranscribed it. But then Donna says, I can't afford to lose you. I cannot lose you. Like I will kill myself. Oh, this is a man. She told the cop she did not remember, right? So Nate says, just forget about it, man. By the way, calling a 58 year old woman, man, is just weird to me. It's just strange.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's calling her, man, man.

[James Petregallo]

He keeps calling her. Just forget about it, man. When a person, man, knows what he's doing, man, that's like jinxing, man. That's what he called her, man. Three times, four times in one sentence, man. It's like jinxing, man. But Donna says, then. But what was the story with the trunk and handcuffs? That's too involved.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh huh.

[James Petregallo]

They've come up with multiple scenarios.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's like taking him away from the scene in the trunk.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So then Nate says, just, just, just leave it alone, all right? And Donna said, it's too much involved. You're gonna leave hair, you're gonna leave prince, you're gonna. So then Nate says, leave it alone, man. Leave it alone, all right? Come on, man. This ain't Perry Mason. Man, it's worse. Cops now have forensics and shit. Perry Mason didn't have shit. He just had to yell at someone until they admitted it. This is crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Perry Mason. Mason was a lawyer, wasn't he?

[James Petregallo]

He was a lawyer who would def. He would take the case apart and then get the real murderer to admit it on the stand while his client side.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nate, this is much deeper than Perry Mason.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Perry Mason didn't have a forensics team.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. Perry just yelled at people until he got the logistics right in his head.

[James Petregallo]

And this guy's like, I'll get away with it. I'll just say, perry Mason, man. Come on. Forensics and hair and shit. Who cares?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Perry Mason ain't shit.

[James Petregallo]

Perry Mason ain't shit. So then Donna says, I don't want to know anything about it ever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, don't tell me any of it.

[James Petregallo]

Do what you need to do, but leave me the fuck out of it, basically.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So there's more incriminating shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah. They keep talking.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, they can't stop. Okay. November 24, 2001. On. Nate's trying to ease Donna's anxieties about

[Jimmy Whisman]

this whole thing, calm her down.

[James Petregallo]

He attempts to reassure her about DNA. By the way, now he is a forensics expert.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What's he gonna say?

[James Petregallo]

Let's find out how Nate thinks forensics work. Number one, he thinks Perry Mason deals with forensics, so that's one thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

First of all, he's not scared of Perry Mason.

[James Petregallo]

No.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's wild.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So. All right, never mind. I'll just get into this. Okay. November 24, 2001. Okay. Nate says, man, we really gonna talk when I come home. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Stop calling her man, please. Please. He's not gonna do. Would be less creepy if he called her ma' am, as he was fucking her. This is creepy, creepy. So she says, okay. Then Nate says, especially about that situation, man. You know? And she says, yeah. And he says, I mean it. Just, you know, you get too nervous at times, that's all. The deal is you're tripping. You're nervous. You can't get away with murder. What a pussy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You don't think this thing that we've planned out and we haven't. Writing in several things. You don't think. Okay, all right. She says, yeah, I know. It's part of my nature. She's the nervous, grandmotherly type. What do you expect?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm not a murderer.

[James Petregallo]

So he says, quote, and then you said, DNA. The only way they can do a DNA is if they got the other person's. You know what I'm saying? So he's saying they'd have to have his DNA already to know that it was his DNA.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, he's so dumb.

[James Petregallo]

He doesn't know shit. He said if they got the person and the hair. Cause they can't just take no hair and say, this is such and such is hair. The laws that we got in the state of Ohio and the laws from everywhere else. I mean, they way different.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And everywhere else.

[James Petregallo]

He's saying the laws of the state of Ohio are way different from everywhere else. And there they'll never be able to match up. I have hair forensically to him. He's saying they can't just pick up a hair and go, that looks like Nate's hair and go find him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Only way they could do a DNA. Yeah, you see?

[James Petregallo]

A DNA.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A DNA.

[James Petregallo]

A DNA. His thoughts are they're never gonna know he exists. That's his thought. So how would they match it up to me? They'd need to get my shit to match it up. And if they don't know I exist, how the fuck they gonna get my shit?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Essentially, they'd have to know that you and I Talk. Talk. 285 letters at a clip while they're

[James Petregallo]

saying this on a recorded jail call.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Literally being taped under his prison ID number. Right. Because you've gotta.

[James Petregallo]

You have to sign in through your shit. Yeah. Cause you have accounts and all that kind of shit. So the laws that we got in the state of Ohio and the laws from everywhere else, I mean, they way different.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they way different.

[James Petregallo]

So he's an expert in Ohio forensic law, Mr. Guy, and what's admissible and everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's why he's not afraid of Perry Mason.

[James Petregallo]

Not afraid of Perry? Let Perry Mason try to talk to me. I'll let that motherfucker know what's up. So Donna says, really? Yes. Rather than going, are you a moron? She says, really?

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's very easy to convince.

[James Petregallo]

She's very easy. And he says, hell, yeah. He says, we'll talk about it when I come home, Donna. Okay? I don't wanna talk about it over the phone. You already did. What's the fucking point? You might as well videotape the whole murder at this point. You've already talked. I don't wanna talk about it on the phone. Oh, okay. Sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't stop now.

[James Petregallo]

Hang on. Wow. He's explaining forensic science fucking up how it works. Fucking up what the laws are he has nothing. And he says DNA only works if they have a sample from the person to compare it to, and if they have your hair and the laws and state of Ohio. He's all fucked up. Everything's wrong.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ohio won't let him have my hair.

[James Petregallo]

No, they won't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They'll stand in the way.

[James Petregallo]

Ohio says you cannot take a man's hair from him if he doesn't want him to. That's it. December 8, 2001. This is all post 911 too. You think? It's just so much going on, it's smoldering.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck.

[James Petregallo]

Still on fire. So was no one else distracted by that? Maybe I was a little too distracted by that, But I wasn't setting up any murder plots for at least three, four months after 9 11. It was very distracting.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It doesn't even seem like he's heard yet.

[James Petregallo]

No, I don't think he has. He's been in jail the whole time that it happened. He was in jail. So I think maybe they didn't tell him in there. It's like Goodfellas. They don't go up there and tell you, I don't shine shoes no more. I don't know if you know. They didn't go up there and tell you, but I don't shine shoes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Those towers don't stand no more.

[James Petregallo]

They don't stand no more. I don't know if they went up there and tell you about it, but. December 8th, 2000. One day before Nate gets out, 24 hours before that. Here. This is the last recorded call between them. You're getting out the next day. Just shut the fuck up and wait till you're in person. Nope. One more, and it's the dumbest one of all. Almost here. Okay. He says, I got to do this, Donna. I got to. And she says, I don't know. Kind of hems and haws. He says, just consider it a done deal. Only thing I'm gonna need is one thing. She says, what? And he says, I just need to be in that house when he come home.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God. Dude.

[James Petregallo]

Dude. It's so bad. It's so bad. So bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All I'm gonna need is one thing. What's that? To be within inches of him. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

To be able to jump out at him in his own home, unsuspectingly in the dark. That's all I need. It's gonna be fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

She says, oh, no. And he says, baby, it ain't gonna happen in the house. He's trying to convince her I need to be there, but I'll get him somewhere so it won't happen because you don't want to ruin. They're gonna live there together. I mean, what are we talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't have to mop.

[James Petregallo]

I don't wanna have blood stains on my floor when I get out of here. So she said, yeah. He says, it ain't gonna happen in the house. It ain't gonna happen in the house, man. I promise you, man. Again, man. He said, I just need to be in there, man. It ain't gonna happen in the house, man. I mean, I ain't gonna jeopardize that man. Not that man, like Robert. I ain't gonna jeopardize that. Meaning the house, comma. Man, you, your man. Donna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And she says, well, let's not talk about it now. Right? Yeah. And he says, okay, we'll talk. We'll. I'll just wait until tomorrow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes, stupid, tomorrow.

[James Petregallo]

Tomorrow you're getting out. And you can talk to her all you want in the privacy of an automobile when you get out of there. Okay? Now, there was another thing here. December 6, 2001, three days before he got out. This isn't a recorded call, but Donna starts prepping three days before he gets out. She drives to the Wagon Wheel Motel in boardman, Ohio, about 20 minutes south of Howland Township. And she reserves a room, a very specific room, the Jacuzzi suite.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Imagine going in the jacuzzi at the Wagon Wheel Motel.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's got carpet around it.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, you know it does. Soaking wet, nasty carpet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

50 year old carpet.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, a Jacuzzi suite. She books there and pays for it. She puts the reservation in Nathaniel Jackson's name. So it's his name. Okay? And this is three days before he gets out. So obviously he didn't go there and pay for it. She did. Okay. December 9, 2001, it's get out Day. Nathaniel is released from prison in Grafton, Ohio, about 90 miles northwest of Youngstown. Donna Roberts takes her car. It's about an hour and a half trip to pick him up. She picks him up in broad daylight. I mean, not hiding anything here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

She drives him back down to the area here. She tells police that she dropped him off at a house on Wirt Street. W I R T street. Wirt street, which is a real street on the south side of Youngstown that Robert's car was found three blocks away from. As a matter of fact, this is where Nate's friends live. But she tells the cops, I just dropped him off and went home. But that's not a lie. They Went to the Wagon Wheel Motel's Jacuzzi Suite on December 9th and had all sorts of disgusting young man on senior citizen jacuzzi sex. Yeah, which is good for her because it'll keep all of her hips and all of her sore muscles in place.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, the jets on the muscles really soothe her. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So they spent the night together, all of that shit. So obviously she was lying to the cops about everything there. Then December 10, 2001, the day before the murder, day after he gets out. They make all sorts of public appearances together.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

They're just going around everywhere together and they stand out because they are. It's not that they're an interracial couple. That's fine. They're 30 years apart from each other.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They don't look like dating a young black man.

[James Petregallo]

They don't look like they go together. They don't look like they go together. It would be like if I was walking around with a 12 year old Asian girl. You go, what's your connection to this kid? And they'd arrest me. And it would be rightfully so. It's just weird. So anyway, it's a strange thing here. She says that this is the. Oh, yes, I forgot about him. Just keep remembering. Oh yeah, him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So she's seen here two days before the murder at a Greyhound bus terminal. There. Seen kissing and talking with another man right near the terminal before Robert arrived for work. That's on the 10th, at his job. At his job, where they own and all the employees know them. Why would she think that this is so blatant, Openly making out outside of a bus station. Which number one is disgusting. That's true. That's trash making out at a bus station.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's either I don't know if I'm ever gonna see you again, or oh my God, I can't believe this. I thought I'd never see you again.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's like, ma', am, you get Modern Maturity magazine, you don't do this. This is not modern or mature what you're doing right now. This is wrong. So they also, the same day, overheard Donna ask Robert for $3,000, which she refused. And that was the day she gave Robert the dirty look and was trembling in so much. December 11th is the day of the murder. We'll run down late morning, early evening. Donna and Nate continue to be seen around together carrying over from the day before. Witnesses spot them at various spots throughout town during the day. 4:30pm, Greyhound bus driver Jim McCoy sees Robert working the terminal. McCoy leaves later on he drives his bus to the Warren terminal, sees Donna and Nathaniel together. And Nathaniel said to him that we are trying to get out of here. About 6pm Donna and Nate go to the Red Lobster in Niles, Ohio. Shrimp fest is back, everybody. Let's do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. The waitress at the Red Lobster will identify both of them. She said, yeah, it was the only old white lady, young black man couple. I had the whole night. Real easy to remember.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Remember or really all week. You know, I can't remember the last one, to be honest.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I don't remember the last one, to be honest. I can't even think of a business meeting. They're not in the same. It's a strange thing. So Red Lobster, they pay their bill at 6:43pm and leave. There is a. And they keep their. Donna keeps the receipt. She's nice. That she keeps. She's a bookkeeper. That's what she does.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

About 9:00am Robert, or 9:00pm I'm sorry. Robert tells the on duty security guard at the Youngstown bus terminal that he's leaving for the evening. He says, I'm going home. Yeah, I'm out of there. So he takes off. About 9:30pm A neighbor who lives on Old State Route 82, which is the road near Donna and Robert's house, observes Donna driving her car very slowly past the house alone, with no other traffic on the road. Just creepy. Sleeping, checking on it, which is very weird. Case in the joint here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Casing her own joint.

[James Petregallo]

Her own joint. And they think that maybe she was waiting for some kind of signal from Nate or just scoping it out because she's curious and stupid. Then 9:45pm through 11:44pm Here we go. Now we have cell phone records pulled from the carriers showing that during this two hour window between 9:45pm and 11:44pm Donna Roberts, two cell phones were calling each other almost constantly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, really?

[James Petregallo]

She's got two phones? Yeah. One cell phone was with Donna in her car. The other cell phone was the one that she, Nate, quote, borrowed from her. That's the one that she's public about here. So they were going back and forth, back and forth. And Donna had lied about that to the cops. He said, oh, I don't know. Nate just must have borrowed my phone. Meanwhile, she was in contact with him over and over and over and over again for a two hour period.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, Him, Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She said she just went shopping that night. They said, well, what'd you shop for? She said, quote, just normal shopping. What food, Shirts, Fucking lawn equipment. What are you shopping for? Yeah, I don't know what that means. The cell tower data, though, says that Donna and Nate were in two different locations, both moving, calling each other every few minutes for two straight hours over the time when Robert was being murdered in the kitchen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

So he's, like, calling her, being like, yeah, he's not here yet, he's not here yet. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, shit, here he comes. Oh, his car. I'll call you back when I'm done murdering him. His car's coming in the garage now. And then click. I don't know. Or maybe he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's in the garage now.

[James Petregallo]

Call you right back. Maybe he called her to let her listen to the murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ooh, gross.

[James Petregallo]

That's possible too. We don't know. We'll never know. Approximately 11:33pm Donna shows up at the Days Inn in Boardman all by herself. She paces around the lobby. The staff remembered her weird, antsy demeanor. And then reserves a room for a week. This is when she reserves a room for a week, books and prepays for the hotel for seven days. Time stamp of 11:33pm oh, so, okay. The days in is about 20 minutes south, by the way. Later on, Nate's fingerprints will be lifted from all over the inside of this hotel room. And so it's interesting. So it's weird that it's strange. Then after she books the room at 11:33pm she drives the 20 minutes back to her house. And by 12:01, she's found Robert and is on the phone with 911. Oh, so that's the timeline she came from. A day's in, reserving a room for a week, right to her house to find the body. And she was talking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's interesting times.

[James Petregallo]

Then the police learned that. Holy shit. Robert's got $550,000 of life insurance. That goes right to fucking don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh. Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Because at first they're like, yeah, there's motivation, but he doesn't seem to be real on top of her about, like, affairs and shit. Seems like if she wants to have an affair, she can have one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's allowed. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Or whatever. But, you know, wanting to be with a guy is a motivation, but it's add 550 grand to make a new start with. Now you're talking about a whole different thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now a man's dead, and you are gifted over half a million dollars. That's.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ooh wee.

[James Petregallo]

That's a lot. So then at 3:38am Is the Phantom phone call Also, the police are still there. The body had been removed, but you know, they're still doing crime scene shit. Monroe picked up the paws on the other end, then the hang up. And that was Donna's cell phone. So they were like, what the fuck? So she's at her brother's house, allegedly sleep.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

So they were like, who's calling Donna's house at 3:38 in the morning? While they're there processing the murder scene. Then they decide, hey, that day's in. Since they were there for a few days and we know Nate was there because his fingerprints are everywhere. Let's search all around that shit just in case. Let's just really go through it with a fine tooth comb. What they find is they go out in the dumpster and find a treasure trove here. Okay? They get, number one, his fingerprints from the inside of the room, which we know about. Also recovered a garbage bag in the dumpster at the motel that came from the room. The bag contains a bottle of peroxide, used bandages and gauze with blood all over them. Right? What? That we'll find out later. Is consistent with Nate Jackson's DNA.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What happened, Nate?

[James Petregallo]

Bandages soaked in his own blood. That would be matched to him with a frequency of 1 in 45 quadillion quintillion.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sorry, that's 5 billion trillion. What is that?

[James Petregallo]

That's five times that. Yeah. Holy billion or I'm sorry, a million trillion or million billion trillion quadrillion quintillion quadrillion.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's too many.

[James Petregallo]

That's too many.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's unfathomable.

[James Petregallo]

It's so much unfathomable. Yeah. The planet will be around for 10,000 more years and that many people will not live on it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a thousand trillion, right? That's 10,000 trillion.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I was going to say that's a bump.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That would be a crazy number.

[James Petregallo]

That would be what a quadrillion is. This is a quintillion. So they also do testing on Robert's car that they found in the middle of nowhere to determine that the blood on the visor contains a mixture consistent with both Robert Fingerhut and Nate Jackson's DNAs. Now, their bloods are intermixed in the same place, which means you were there,

[Jimmy Whisman]

you both bleeding at the same time. Together.

[James Petregallo]

Together on top of each other. Blood recovered from the trunk release of the car indicated a DNA mixture with a major profile consistent with Nate and a minor profile consistent with with Robert. Not good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So mostly his blood, meaning he's bleeding and Rob's blood is in it. And he touched something.

[James Petregallo]

He touched the trunk release.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

So December 20th, no one's in handcuffs yet somehow. No, but they're trying to see here because Donna is insisting. I don't know what you're talking about. So they're going to see. Okay, Donna, you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe we can kind of bust them both at the same time. They decided here that she was a witness or that she's a suspect. Obviously, they have the phone records, letters, all this type of shit. So they say, okay, basically, this is either you're gonna get a confession or a denial. That looks worse. So they asked Donna, will you do something for us, the police? Because we want to catch who murdered your husband.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do something for me.

[James Petregallo]

We are suspecting that guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Nate you were going out with. So will you do something? Call Nate and we'll record it and try to get him to say incriminating shit. Now imagine the thoughts dancing in her fucking head when you're asked that. Fuck. Okay, I gotta call him. I'm trying to save my own ass. But at the same time, I don't really want to incriminate him. Because then he can incriminate me. Fuck. This is a lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stone in casino, trying to call her friend and corroborate the salad.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. And then at the same. Totally. And then at the same fucking time from all this, like, this is just a lot like she's trying to do this. And at the same time, she's got to be thinking, how have they not. They searched everything? Have they read all the letters?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

That's not good. You know what I mean? She's got to be thinking that this is the. She's got to know that they know her, too. That's what I mean. It's crazy. So they're like, what the fuck? So they use a controlled call, get the suspect on the line, try to get them to incriminate themselves. She agrees because she has no choice. So they give her a list of specific questions they want them to ask. They want her to ask Nate basically of what happened that night. Tell me specifics of what happened.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

I want to know about it. Basically.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now, don't tip him off that cops are on the phone.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But cops are going to say, fuck you mean baby. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Talk about shit that they've probably discussed in detail sometime in the previous nine days. You know what I mean? So that's what's crazy. So although I don't know how much she's been able to talk to him because they're trying to hide it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's gonna know though. He's going to know.

[James Petregallo]

Well, yeah, Donna, the way they put it, the police said that Donna, quote, failed to ask Jackson the critical questions that police had instructed her to ask. She just didn't do what she said you can't do. Yeah, she fed him softball questions. And they said she was basically covering for him and also saying shit that kind of was coded. Not blatantly, but almost like if he had any inkling that the cops might be there, she was trying to kind of be like tipping him off about it, not to talk.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, that's a fucked situation because if she asks him those questions that they want her to ask, he's gonna be like, what are you talking about? You know what happened? You're. We killed him.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, what the fuck?

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it's gonna incriminate her too. That's why she can't ask the questions.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly, that's. I mean, she's in a shit mess right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is so fucked.

[James Petregallo]

She's so fucked. Imagine her heart beating. Oh sure, I'll call him. And you're calling and this is like being in the principal's office and telling them to call your mom at work. You know what I mean? This is worse though.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, she's gonna shit her pants, Jay.

[James Petregallo]

She's gonna be pissed. It's very soon anyway. She'll be shitting her pants soon anyway. But it could happen from this now. December 21, 2001, Donna is at home at the murder house. At this point, 10 days after cops come up and arrest her, they arrest her for murder. They said she doesn't resist or even seem surprised. She doesn't go, what? What do you mean? She's like, what took you so long? And then she said, a drag of the cigarette.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Remember when I wrote it down? I'm sorry, guys, I fucked up.

[James Petregallo]

Robert's son Michael said, when my father was murdered, we didn't even know about it until after he'd been buried. What? Didn't tell. And I'm sorry, the cops should fucking tell them too. If the cops suspect.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If the cops suspect that, yeah, they

[James Petregallo]

gotta talk to the rest next of kin. Besides the person you think murdered him, These people, they weren't notified that he was even dead. Nevermind. At a funeral, yeah, if you've got

[Jimmy Whisman]

a suspicion, I guess you tell somebody. And that when they coordinate the funeral or however you're gonna dispose of the remains, you probably assume they're gonna tell Everybody they can to make themselves look

[James Petregallo]

less guilty, I guess. But also, you think the cops would wanna talk to Michael? What's the background on this relationship? This is interesting. Like, who the fuck wouldn't call the son to find out? Especially when it first happened. You'd want to talk to everybody close to him and find out what's up. You'd think the son would be one of the people. Does he have any business associates he doesn't like? He's been talking about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Look, your mom.

[James Petregallo]

Is Donna suspicious?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do you know if she's cheating on her? Right.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly. Do you have any suspicions about Donna? Do you think that she's this or whatever the fuck. But they don't even talk to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's fascinating.

[James Petregallo]

He said when my father was murdered. We didn't even know about it till after he was buried. She put him in a pine box. Didn't even give him a good funeral.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, she wants to keep all the money. Fuck.

[James Petregallo]

550 grand in insurance. Yeah, that's what she's doing. When the detective said, your dad's dead, my first thought was Donna. Okay, so Nate is arrested as well. They raided the Wirt street house where his friends lived. Where he was hiding out. Out. And he had a bandage wrapped around his left index finger, which was obviously injured. Now they find inside this house a piece of a black leather glove. Okay. There was a piece of the glove they'd find in the house. They found the gloves. But the index finger of the left glove had been torn off. And there was a red substance. There was blood near the tear. Yeah, so it had been torn off like that. That's how his finger got hurt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It probably was the one that was in the trigger. And it probably got wrapped up in an argument or in the fight. In the scuffle.

[James Petregallo]

Very possible it's on his left hand. I don't know if he's left handed or not. Whatever it is. But that's possible. Because there'd have to be something that could cause that kind of thing. We'll get to it, though. It gets weirder here. So this isn't good. She had written about the gloves and now they found the gloves. Fleece line, black gloves. Same ones she bought. Same thing. Very beautiful, as she put it. Beautiful. Fleece gloves. Fleece line, gloves. Not good. Now, also a ski mask hat. Also, they said it's never been recovered any ski mask hat. Now, the handcuffs are mentioned in the letters, but they don't appear to have been used during the actual murder. They couldn't find any Marks on the wrists or anything like that. That probably because Robert fought back too hard for the handcuff plan to work. He probably thought he'd pop up, put the gun on him, and said. And he would act like he was getting arrested. Yeah. Put your hands behind your back, and I'm gonna cuff you. And Robert said, we're in my garage. You're not a cop. I'm fighting you. Fuck you. So they also have the receipt that Donham mailed to him in prison because he has the receipt for the gloves they also found and a pair of sneakers that match size and shred pattern perfectly to the footprints in the house in the blood.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petregallo]

Remember those footprints? That's not good. So they bring Nate in and sit him down. Okay, Nate, you've been out of jail 12 days, you fucking idiot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Less than a fortnight, man. How did you do it?

[James Petregallo]

You've already banged an old lady and killed a guy. It's been a busy week for you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You've been in a jacuzzi tub.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, and 50 whatever's not an old lady. But when you're 27, anybody over 35 is an old lady. It' you know what I mean? Anybody over 40 is, like, ancient when you're in your 20s.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Certainly a thought. Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So during Nate's interrogation here, he said that he and Robert had known each other for a couple of years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

His first words when they sat him down was, quote, I just didn't mean to do it, man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

That's not good. No, do what, man? Yeah, yeah, I just didn't mean to do it. He kept saying that. Just didn't mean to do it, man. Just didn't mean to do it. They said, so you knew Robert? He said, yeah, we knew each other for a couple of years. And they said, well, when's the last time you saw him? And he said, the day he got killed on the 11th.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, but earlier in the day. I didn't see him late. No, no, earlier than that. I sold him some weed earlier that day. Oh, so it's like you got out of jail on the 9th, and by the 11th, you had.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You already got a racket going.

[James Petregallo]

You've already got enough weed to sell. Like, you've already gathered up a distribution amount of weed here. What's going on? He said that Robert had given him a ride back to Robert's own house so Nate could, quote, chill before he started a job at the bus terminal the next day. Now, like we said, Robert is known to hire ex convicts True.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And everyone knows that. So that's Nate's story is I was hanging out with Robert because he was going to hire me. So he brought me to his own house to chill.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To chill.

[James Petregallo]

To chill. Well, you know, wait for the next day. He said once they got inside, Robert started yelling at him and throwing racial slurs at him like crazy. Wouldn't stop dropping the N word on him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Called me lazy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, amongst other things.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

But, you know, amongst other letters. And this, by the way, goes, everybody says Robert's never used a racial slur in his life because he's not his son. Said he's the least prejudiced person you're ever gonna meet. That's just not what he's. He goes the opposite.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a kind man.

[James Petregallo]

Well, he goes the opposite way. He tries to take people in, basically, and whatever. And also a bunch of other disparaging things. He said. Then Robert pulled a revolver on him. It's not enough that I call you the N word. I need to point a gun in your face, too. So he pulled a revolver on him, and he said there was a struggle for the revolver, and that's how Nate's finger got fucked up. He got shot in the finger during the struggle.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So Nate said he wrestled the gun away from Robert, and Nate shot Robert twice during the tussle, as he put it, though he wasn't sure where. He wasn't sure where he shot Robert, and he didn't know whether Robert was still breathing when Nate ran out and took Robert's car and took off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, you shoot somebody in the top of the head, you know they're not breathing.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. That's a bad story. First of all, he said he only shot him twice. Shot him three times. And where'd the second gun come from?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

That's the other thing. Where'd the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. That means you brought a gun as a guy that just got out of prison. Yep.

[James Petregallo]

You had a firearm after you've been out for a felony. So that's not. And you were selling weed with a firearm, too, which is even more charges.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So I would like to say I did not murder a man, but I could have. And I was selling weed, and I

[James Petregallo]

was selling weed because I did have a gun. It wasn't his house, but he said he was still breathing when he left, which probably is not true, judging by the shot to the head.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, there's no way.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, this is the finger that's fucked up as the missing glove finger. It's all in There. And the glove has his blood in it. It all matches up there. So what's wrong with Nate's story here? Well, number one, three shots, not twice. Okay. Second, the bullets were fired from a different gun than the.38 found by the body. That was a fully loaded revolver found next to Robert's body. So Robert never pulled a revolver. Or even if he did, he certainly never had a chance to use it. Exactly. Third, how would Robert have shot Nate in the finger with a gun that was found unfired?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

How does that work? The bullet that hit Nate's finger probably came from the same gun that killed Robert. Meaning it was Nate's own gun. Nate either accidentally shot himself during the assault or shot through the glove while attacking Robert.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's probably true.

[James Petregallo]

That's very easily could happen if he's wrestling around with it. And. Yeah, also, Nate had spent the previous three months writing letters and saying he was gonna murder Robert as soon as he got out. So that's not one. That's not good here. And. Yeah. And why does a ski. Why would he need a ski mask? That makes no sense.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. What do you need that if you're about to murder him?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And also saying he had approached Robert about getting a job at the Youngstown bus terminal. And they're saying, well, we know that he hires recently released felons, but he's gonna ask his girlfriend's husband for a job. That seems risky. That seems very.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And bring a gun to do it.

[James Petregallo]

And bring a gun to do it just in case. The interview. I've never had an interview go that bad for a job or I had to fucking. I had to pull steel at the end of that shit and be like, what's up, mother? No, I'm backing out. You fucking say where you're sitting. I'm backing out of here. 725 an hour, and I have fucking plenty of interviews. I'm not going any lower, bitch. No. No, I will not clean the fucking. The oil that we fry shit in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

That's where I draw the line. So Nate has asked at this point, hey, this is self defense. And Nate's like, absolutely. Total self defense. And they said, do us a favor. We're going to videot, and I'd like you to. This is just audio recording. Yeah, we'd like to do a videotape.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

You should let us know what's going on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's do it again. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Nate pauses and said that. I'm through talking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm done.

[James Petregallo]

And then said, this is amazing. I don't have time to just keep going over this over and over again. I don't have time. Where the fuck do you have to be? You just confessed to killing a man, whether in self defense or not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not.

[James Petregallo]

You're gonna be here for quite a while. I got serious. Your schedule is not important. Yeah, so this is interesting. Now, this is from the newspaper. They say in the midst of a long and rambling statement on videotape, Jackson says, quote, I talked to a lawyer or something. Then later says, we just sum it up like I said, man, when I talk to my lawyer, man, you're gonna know what I'm saying.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, so.

[James Petregallo]

So that's what he says. Now, under the fifth Amendment, though, you must clearly ask for. You can't just mention the word lawyer. We see this all the time where people try to get out of statements by saying, I said, maybe I need a lawyer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

Well, that's not. I won't answer questions without my lawyer. Yeah, I want a lawyer. You have to say, not answering any more questions. It has to be very clear. So the officers just continued to ask questions, and he continued to answer them and making himself look incredibly guilty. Now you have two people that look real fucking guilty at this point, huh? Very bad. Nate is they're gonna have both go to trial, by the way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Which is crazy. And neither of them are talking. Neither of them are flipping on each other. Neither of them are making a deal. They say they have enough evidence where they don't want to make a deal with either one of them. They're.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We don't need a deal.

[James Petregallo]

Unless you want to just plead guilty to everything and get the maximum. We're not making any deal with you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. If you just want to get life in prison, we'll take the death penalty off the table then go ahead.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, but they don't want to do that because they want the death penalty on the table.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They do.

[James Petregallo]

They do. So Nate is both of them are charged with two counts of aggravated murder here. Both counts contain two death. Specific specifications pursuant to the law here. One charging aggravated murder during the commission of an aggravated burglary. One, charging aggravated murder during the commission of an aggravated robbery. Robbery took the car. Death penalty. Shit. Plain and simple. So the state's strategy at trial for Nate. Nate's trial is first is show the letters. Because with him, they have DNA that he was there. They have everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He can't believe they got the DNA. It's shocking.

[James Petregallo]

Show the letters. Let them hear all the jail recordings. Let them watch the Videotape let them listen to the confession from the interrogation, Present DNA, show them fingerprint evidence. It's like every form of evidence from the beginning of time until modern times. They have everything from witnesses showing where they were to DNA placing them within a quintillion of what the fuck of people there are also.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here's a confession of a man saying that he murdered a man. And here's a letter from the day before saying he's going to go murder this man.

[James Petregallo]

Do it. I'm gonna do it so we can be together. So they also present Donna's statements saying that she barely remembered him and all that kind of shit. So they said this is bullshit. And the prosecution says that Nate in writing says he was gonna come to the house and shoot Robert in the fucking head. In writing he said that. And then he came to the house and guess what he did?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He shot that man in the fucking head.

[James Petregallo]

In the fucking head. The defense is just self defense. That's what they say say they put out in the videotape statement. They argue that Nate's whole shit here, while it doesn't look good, the letters that he was sending from jail, they don't look great, but they're just the venting of a frustrated lover. They don't actually represent a plan. They're just wishful thinking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a man that's just frustrated, James.

[James Petregallo]

Never mind the fact that the plan actually happened and he's covered in DNA. That doesn't matter.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Calm down.

[James Petregallo]

He's a very frustrated label lover, not man lover. Frustrated lover. They argue that the planning conversations were mostly Donna's idea and Nate was more or less going along the satisfier, which if you listen to the recordings, it's kind of the opposite. She seems involved, but he seems like, yo, I can't wait to do this. And she's like not wanting to talk about it on the phone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Baby, just calm down. I got this. Calm down.

[James Petregallo]

So they emphasized that Nate was the one who got physically wounded, the finger injury injury. And that the timing of the killing, rather than at some remote location with a trunk and handcuffs, suggests the plan wasn't the plan and Nate was just reacting in the moment. They said that they might have made all these plans, but that's not the plan that came to fruition. They didn't say, I'm gonna get shot in the finger and then I'm gonna shoot this guy and run away. That's not the plan. So it's obvious now the state's response is who fucking Cares?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Sometimes plans get fucked up.

[James Petregallo]

Up, Letters, DNA mixed together, intermingling. Shut the fuck up, they said. Even if you believe every word of the defense. Believe him. He said, go ahead, believe every word. That the original plan changed and there was a struggle in the house. Nate still came into Robert's home, the husband of the woman he's having an affair with, armed, while Robert was not home, and waited for him to come home. He was lying in wait for a man to come in the goddamn door. They said that by himself, with the gun, with the gloves, with the letters, that's aggravated burglary right there. If no one dies, they said. And killing Robert in the course of an aggravated burglary is felony murder. Felony murder with prior calculation and designed is a capital aggravated murder. This is a death penalty case. And fuck him is what they say. So that's what they present. All of the evidence that we just told you. The verdict comes in here. He is found guilty of aggravated murder with both death penalty specifications. Everything just cleared the boards there during sentencing. Doesn't help much either. Not a lot of mitigating here. They say, you, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty for Nate. They give him the death penalty. Now they bring Donna up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh oh.

[James Petregallo]

Very few women in their late 50s get sentenced to death.

[Jimmy Whisman]

True.

[James Petregallo]

This just doesn't happen. We generally as a society don't look at a woman with, you know, beginning stages of osteoporosis and say, she's a threat to society forever. We need to kill her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bossy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. This lady writes down whatever Jamie Lee Curtis tells her makes her poop better. She's like, what's that? That's a lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Say again, Jamie.

[James Petregallo]

Say again. Cause some. Woo hoo. Yeah. Post menopause, I gotta tell you. Really?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So Donna's trial, exact same charges, everything's the same.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's gonna go to trial.

[James Petregallo]

She's going to trial. She asked for a change of venue, begging because of not only all the publicity from the case, but then Nate's trial just happened there too. So anyone who didn't hear about it before, they certainly know about it now. And the judge goes, I don't think so. I think we're good here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think we'll hang. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. And it's by the way, the same judge that did Nate's case. So we know what his predilection is for here. Okay, first of all, how crazy is Donna? Let's find out how crazy Donna is. All right, this is Michael. Michael Fingerhut, the son, Mikey Fingers over here. They call him in the mob. So Mikey Fingers here, Robert's son, this poor guy. Jesus Christ. He didn't even know his. That's horrible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He didn't even get to lay his father to rest. It's so fucked.

[James Petregallo]

He didn't even get to see him go to the ground. He didn't get to put him in

[Jimmy Whisman]

a decent coffin, like, didn't even know until they died. He didn't even know he was dead. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. He said that Donna Roberts was, quote, evil and manipulative. He said during the trial, he was there. Donna talked to him, turned around and talked to Michael and pointed out out the news media in the courtroom, looked at Robert. Not only the news media, but everybody else that was in the courtroom, in the whole gallery, looked at Robert's son, Michael and said, they're all here for me, Michael. Yeah, to support me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She put it, they're all here to support me. Why aren't you?

[James Petregallo]

So Michael said that he looked at her and said, they're all here for me. That's who all these people are here for. The victim. Not you, stupid. She's like, all these people here to watch. They're all here for me. No, they're here to make sure you go to jail forever, you fucking idiot. But that's how crazy she is. She looked to the victim's son and said, they're all here for me, Michael. What kind of a sick lunatic says that? Narcissistic maniac. And he hates. He said, I've known her for 40 fucking years. She's a psychopath. I know her. She's nuts. He said in, like, 2020. He's like, she's a fucking whack job. So there's also a motion to suppress the evidence because she said it was okay to search. She argues that the police exceeded the scope of her consent to search the home during the investigation of the murder and that the trial court erred in failing to suppress her letters to Jackson, which she wanted suppressed. And they're not here. They're doing that they were originally let in. She's appealing that thing, the pretrial admissions.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. I don't want the conversation between me and a convicted murderer in my trial.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, that sounds bad, right? She contends that a reasonable person would have believed that the police would be searching her house, but not a vehicle in the garage that was not at her home at the time of the offense. So that car. She's saying that car wasn't even there when the murder happened. She drove up later. So why Would the cops search that car during a search of the property?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cause it's here now and that's where

[James Petregallo]

they found the bag. Which is. I gotta give her lawyer credit. It's a clever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not bad. It's a good swing.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's something. It's better than just. It's not fair, you know what I mean? It's something. But they said. I don't think so. That's ridiculous. The state presents several witnesses who testify that Donna clearly and directly gave police open ended consent to search the premises. I don't care. Get that bastard that killed my robbers. What she said, then signed all the paperwork.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She didn't know they were gonna do it. She did not expect them to get in that car.

[James Petregallo]

No. Fuck no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, go ahead, search my house. It's not in there.

[James Petregallo]

Anyway, several officers testified that they heard. Do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard. All sorts of. Another detective said she heard her say, I don't care what you have to do. I want you to get the person that did this to my Robert. To my Robert, quote, whatever you have to do. Search the whole place. Just find the guy. This doesn't sound like she's limiting their search in any way. Search here, but not there. And also he further testified that Donna gave him permission to look anywhere on the property to find clues to who murdered her husband. Husband, Robert's brother also testified, he said that his sister. Oh, I'm sorry, Donna's brother. Robert's brother, not Robert's brother. God, that's confusing. You have no idea how confusing this was to put together.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is a nightmare.

[James Petregallo]

Her brother testified, stating that his sister was very cooperative with police and did not rebuff them in any way. According to the brother, when police told her they wanted to search through the house for clues, by the way, he thinks he's helping her by saying, oh, she was cooperative with the police. No, no, no. They said, well, what did she say to police? And the brother said. She said, do what you gotta do. So even her own brother fucks her there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She said, go ahead and search everything.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, yeah. She said, just do what you gotta do. Really. I mean, tear it apart. If there's a bag with anybody's name on it, look in it. Read everything, please. So particular one, her excuse for the ASAP amen letter here. Good God, do whatever. It's a lot. So the defense team tried to argue that this passage was figurative. This wasn't literally. No, it was venting hyperbole. They said it's all just Silly. The kind of thing anybody might say about an annoying ex.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Murder him asap. Is that amen? So the defense, it's their turn and they pull a Corey Richards, Lori Vallow. They call zero witnesses, Defense fucking rests. Who are they going to call in?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Prove nothing.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. That's what they tried to do. Unless you call Donna, you got nobody to talk to. Even her own brother fucked her and told her, told the truth. So they put on no. No defense, no case, no argument. I mean, they do cross examination on everybody, don't get me wrong. But they don't present any case. Nope. They don't call any experts. They don't put Donna on the stand. And it goes to the verdict. It goes to the jury. What are they gonna say here, you think you know what I mean? They find her fucking guilty of everything, all the charges. Sentencing comes along and there is all the aggravating factors that they put forth which are too numerous to list off here. And I won't even bother listing them. You guys understand what's going on? Then there's the mitigation part of the hearing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What do they got?

[James Petregallo]

If you don't know, that's her turn to come out and say, I'm such a great person that you don't want to kill me. Yeah, don't kill me in society. Please don't kill me. She says, I'm not giving a fucking thing of mitigation. Fuck you people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she says, I want the death penalty. Eat shit. That's what she tells them, essentially.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, she's trying to challenge them.

[James Petregallo]

She told. I don't want the lawyers. She told her lawyers and the court, I don't want them putting anything on that might convince the jury not to kill me. I don't want any mitigation. So the trial court has to hold a competency hearing to make sure she's not nuts when she does this. They want to make sure she understands what she's doing. The judge, judge explains the purpose of mitigating and the consequences of waiving it. It's all the prosecution's shit at that point. The trial counsel describes for the judge what evidence could be presented if Donna allowed it. This is what we have, her family, people who love her, saying she's a nice person, all this shit. And she can sit there, they can dress her in a grandmotherly outfit, say all sorts of nice things about her. She bakes cookies and all that shit. No one's gonna kill her. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

The council also notes for the Record. They personally and professionally disagree with Donna's decision to waive her right to mitigation, but they believe she's mentally competent to make it, and it's her right. So they bring In a psychiatrist, Dr. Thomas Eberle, and he evaluates Donna. He concludes that Donna's decision to forego mitigation was rationally made. Might not be a rational decision, but it was made with rational thought. He finds no psychiatric or psychological abnormality that would impair our capacity to make the decision. She's competent, knows what she's doing. The court has to allow it. The judge asked her directly. Do you understand that by waiving the presentation of mitigating evidence, this jury has very little to go on in coming up with anything other than the death penalty. You get that, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She said, quote, that is what I hope for. I know what I'm doing and I know why. Thank you for asking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Appreciate that.

[James Petregallo]

I love the little. Thank you for asking. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm good. I don't want any soda, but thank you for asking. That's hilarious.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I appreciate your offer. I'll take the murder, please.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. There is an unsworn statement she'd like to make. Okay. Most of the time, this would be to ask for remorse, show remorse, ask for mercy, do all that kind of shit. Even to talk to her family, to their family, to say they're sorry, whatever the fuck it is. Donna uses her. Wow. Uses her unsworn statement to speak for over an hour, number one, which is a long time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Headline set.

[James Petregallo]

Headline set in court. Court. This is fucking amazing. Now, during her hour long speech, she presents nothing of any mitigating evidence, spends the time complaining about the media coverage, how people have treated her, and just basically she's trying to right all the social wrongs she believes have happened to her over the course of this. She spent time criticizing the news media coverage, criticizing the jurors. Oh, and who, by the way, is their decision to decide? I mean, the judge eventually has to agree with them, but they're gonna recommend a second.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're murder you, lady.

[James Petregallo]

She called them young, inexperienced people who don't read newspapers or watch the news.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Outstanding.

[James Petregallo]

She said they're a bunch of dummies and they're too young. Like your boyfriend reads the news or newspapers. He's in his 20s.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. These people are older than him, Right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. We got a jury of your boyfriend's peers here for you. What are we talking about? It's a jury of his peers, not yours. Because they'd have a Hard time staying awake for the whole thing, honestly. They need a little nap during the day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're home watching Perry Mason.

[James Petregallo]

Perry Mason's on. That's what's going on. So she also, in addition to shit talking the jurors, which I've never seen before.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

In this situation, usually they leave the jury out of it. Then also frequently referred to her wealth. Kept making. Bringing up her wealth, talking about how she had 52 charge cards and she had all this money.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Charge cards came up.

[James Petregallo]

Dude, she's just doing everything to make the jury possibly hate her. Let me show you how rich I am. Let me call you young, inexperienced morons. Let me talk shit about everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She brought up 52 charge cards.

[James Petregallo]

She did. She did. This is her. Please don't kill me. I'm rich.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I've got a bitch.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She also used the time to berate one of the prosecution witnesses, Frank Reynolds, who's a bus terminal employee who saw her with Nate and overheard her ask Robert for $3,000 on February 10th. She took offense at his testimony about her social standing. That's what she was mad at. How dare you act like I don't have access to $3,000. I'm wealthy. I have 52 charge cards. I don't need his $3,000.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Frank Reynolds DeVito's character name. It's Always Sunny.

[James Petregallo]

It's Always Sunny. Absolutely. Well, he works at a bus station in Youngstown. That's fucking hilarious. So then she tells the jury this, quote, I will not provide any mitigating evidence.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I will not.

[James Petregallo]

You are bound by law to give me one sentence. The death penalty. You have no other choice. That is what I'm asking you to do, because that is the right thing to do. And then she sits down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

By law.

[James Petregallo]

By law. The judge. Wow. I mean, this judge. The judge noted in his sentencing that he also detected self promotion in her hour long statement to juror. She thought this was like fucking TikTok for her. She's gonna. This is Instagram. Look what I got.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's gonna throw her weight around. This from 52 charge cards.

[James Petregallo]

52. She said also that she frequently referred to her wealth. One witness. Wow. Also, the judge said that you berated a witness for just being a witness. They just saw something and you berated him for it. And he also said, says it seems these mischaracterizations of her social status were more upsetting to Roberts than the guilty verdict against her for complicity to commit murder. You, ma', am, may fuck off. And death penalty for you, too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She got it.

[James Petregallo]

There you go. She's the first woman to be sentenced to death in Trumbull county in modern history. Whatever the fuck that means. Yeah. Wow. So her and Nate both go on a death row now. In prison, he was at the Mansfield Correctional Institute, later the Chillicothe Correctional Institute. She was sent to the Ohio Reformatory for Women in Marysville, Ohio. And they were never allowed to communicate after that. So they never saw each other, heard from each other again. Now she appeals.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Now they affirm her convictions for aggravated murder, aggravated burglary and aggravated robbery here. But they're saying her own defense lawyer would explain to the Ohio Supreme Court later that Donna had a martyr complex. She's a martyr. She's one of these. They said that the Lantern, the student newspaper at Ohio State, would report that Donna told the court she wanted the death penalty as a matter of racial parity.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

As a means of proving racial injustice. Because as a white Jewish woman converted as a white Jewish woman, she expected the same punishment as her black accomplice. As my young black accomplice. That's right. I should get the same thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Petregallo]

And you can choose me to do that if you'd like. So they ordered that the trial judge on remand to afford Roberts her right to allocate and to personally review and evaluate evidence, weigh aggravating circumstances against any relevant mitigating sentences or circumstances and evidence, or determine anew the appropriateness of the death penalty. And they find that they overturn the death penalty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

They overturn the death penalty on her, saying that the jury didn't get to properly weigh aggravating and mitigating, but that then anybody could just do that and get their sentence overturned. That's the point. That's crazy. She didn't want to mitigate shit. She said that she went up there and made an asshole out of herself instead.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, she did it because she had a martyr complex at the time. She wanted to show that white Jewish ladies can go to jail same as

[James Petregallo]

black guys can get the needle, the same as black guys. 2007, she's the only woman on Ohio's death row, by the way, just hanging out. She's allowed out of her cell from 8am to 11am and then from 4:30 to 5:30, which is actually more than most death rows let out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. It's usually 23 hours lockdown.

[James Petregallo]

That's right. She remained on death row even after the court vacated her sentence and ordered a new sentencing. They say that? Yeah. Now all of A sudden, too, she's saying that she had mental problems and this is mitigating circumstances. Now she puts in court documents and in hearings comments about how she was sexually abused by a cousin and lived in a very, very abusive home on a farm and later suffered mental injuries in multiple car crashes. Oh, yeah, that's what she says.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bouncing off things. Every car she's in bounces off shit.

[James Petregallo]

Multiple head injuries. I was very abused and my cousin molested me, so. Or abused me. I don't think they were the same age because she said sexually abused, not molested.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So they're important.

[James Petregallo]

Similar age.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Some important information.

[James Petregallo]

None of that makes you kill a man when you're 57, I don't think. Are you sure? No. Michael, the son, Robert's son, said, in the nearly 40 years I've known Donna, it's never come. Come up. Meaning the sexual assaults, which you wouldn't tell your stepson that your cousin molested you when you were nine. Probably. You'd probably tell him about abuse or head injuries that you've had over the course of your life.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The 40 years that he's known her. Has her car bounced off shit a lot?

[James Petregallo]

Well, no, he said. Well, that's the other thing. She said she suffered a head injury in a 1999 car accident. But Michael said between the time of the accident and the murder, she never claimed a head injury. She never went to the hospital for. She never said she had an injury. She didn't tell anybody about it. By the 2007 hearing, she claimed the tape conversations between her and Jackson. Now she has new excuses for those were, quote, just my imagination.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Just my imagination. That's right. That's all it is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If it's your imagination, then it's my imagination because it exists.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, no. And also, not only were they my imagination, they were stories I was writing. Now she's pulling a Corey Rich and saying the Walk the Dog letter was just a story. She said this is a story like the one she'd written while she was in school.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Just fantasy writings. And that she never meant for anything bad to happen. Now, on remand, the trial court afforded her her right to allocution. And one week later, after asking her whether she had anything further to say and hearing an argument from the defense counsel, they say, you, ma', am, may fuck off. A death penalty again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hang onto it.

[James Petregallo]

You got that for you? Go put that in your pocket for later. Yeah, that's good. You're gonna need that later. 2013 appeals again. Obviously she doesn't like this at all. Concluding that the court failed to consider her allocution in determining her sentence during the proceeding on remand. So they vacate the death sentence again and put her back for resentment sentencing. 2014, she's back in court. The judge hears arguments on the defense motion. He denies the motion on the grounds that the instructions in this case regarding the proceedings on remand precluded granting the motion and that he had already considered and rejected Robert's arguments. It's not that we didn't listen. We just already heard that and said, don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You already brought this to us.

[James Petregallo]

It's not new. Shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He then said he carefully reviewed the court record the guilt and penalty phases of the trial. And he announced that he had, quote, given no deference to the prior decisions of the original trial judge and announced that the aggravating circumstances outweigh the mitigating circumstances by proof beyond a reasonable doubt and that he incorporated these findings into a sentencing opinion in and says, you, ma', am, may fuck off. Death penalty again. Keep getting it. Now, on the night Nate was arrested, he's appealing based on something too. What? He was arrested. He was advised of his Miranda rights on the ride to the jail. Then they said without being questioned, he denied killing anyone and asked whether he had the right to an attorney at any time. They told him, yes, we told you, you're right. Rights. At the jail, a short while after questioning began, Jackson agreed to allow police to videotape his statement. He did not ask for a lawyer and declined to or declined to answer questions. He just said a couple things but then kept talking. As the videotape began, the detectives informed him of his rights and gave him a waiver of rights form which he signed on camera. On the tape, he claimed that he did not mean to kill Robert and essentially claimed he had acted in self defense. They said in making his arguments to the trial court, to suppress his statement to police. Jackson maintained the police persisted in questioning him even though he asserted several times his rights to say nothing and have an attorney present. Although he admitted signing the waiver, he claimed that no one had read him his rights beforehand. Meanwhile, it's on camera, they said in the midst of a long and rambling statement. He said, I talked to a lawyer or something. We just sum it up like I said, man, when I talk to my lawyer, man, you know what I'm saying? That's not asking for a lawyer. And they said, under the Fifth Amendment, you must clearly ask for a lawyer. 2017 Donna Ohio Supreme Court affirms her death sentence 6 to 1. 2018. The U.S. supreme Court denies to hear about it, so she's technically scheduled for execution. But Ohio's executions have been on moratorium for years due to the unavailability of lethal injection drugs. And this isn't fucking Louisiana. They don't just go, you know, get whatever runs that weed whacker. We'll stick that into him. That's not. You know, they actually have to slam

[Jimmy Whisman]

his nuts in a sliding door till he dies.

[James Petregallo]

Fine. He'll die eventually. 2021, Roberts files A. Donna files a federal habeas corpus petition in the US District Court for the District of Northern Ohio asserting 15 grounds for relief. Death sentence stands again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

When is she gonna stop?

[James Petregallo]

2024, the 6th Circuit Court vacates Nate's sentence.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Okay. May 2025. Judge rules in favor of Donna's habeas petition. Donna's death sentence is once again in jeopardy of being vacated now as they both face resentencing hearings. Both of them have been vacated as of right now. If you look up their current Department of Corrections Ohio thing, they both say they're in for life without parole and life are their two sentences. What both of them say. So right now, they are both not up for the death penalty, but they could have it reinstated.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And Donna is now in her 80s. 80s, guys.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't want that to happen.

[James Petregallo]

No, we're gonna. We can't execute an 85 year old lady. We can't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't want that to happen at all.

[James Petregallo]

Nobody wants anything like that. We'll just wait a little while. She'll keel over while fucking getting a doily.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's coming. Don't worry.

[James Petregallo]

It's gonna happen. She's the only woman on Ohio's death row still. I never.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God. Because somebody's got to witness that. You don't want to see that.

[James Petregallo]

Nobody wants to watch a very old lady get murdered.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, finding. Getting the needle in is going to be real easy. But you'll.

[James Petregallo]

Or hard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You might tear them.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. You might have to rip it up. Wow. So in the media, in the years since the convictions here, the case has been featured on Deadly Women. Also snapped killer couples.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Because she's a woman.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Calls from The Inside, Season 2. And for my man, those are the names of the things that have been in Nathaniel. Like we said, he's in his 50s, he's born in 72. So yeah, he's going to be 54 years old at this Point. He is in the Ross Correctional Institution currently. And he is a 44. 0891 is his number. Donna is W055276. And she is in the Ohio Reformatory for Women. That everybody is Howland Township, Ohio. And one crazy, goddamn batshit bonker story.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That woman's 82, James.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she's 82. I think we'll just say just life without. How much more time are we talking here?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, it's not much longer.

[James Petregallo]

Let's not waste money on all these appeals. She's gonna be dead in the middle of these appeals. Who cares?

[Jimmy Whisman]

She might be dead tomorrow any minute.

[James Petregallo]

She can drop dead. She's in her 80s, for Christ's sake. So there you go. If you like that episode, do us a favor, get on whatever app you're listening on, give us five stars. It helps tremendously when you do that. So thank you for doing that. Honestly, everybody, do that, please. Definitely. Head over to shutupandgivemerder.com. get your tickets for live shows, people. Let's do it. Looks like Royal Oak has sold out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It did.

[James Petregallo]

So. May 29 and May 30, Buffalo, Royal Oak, both sold out. Thank you, everybody. You're fucking awesome. Let's keep that sellout train going. September 18, Milwaukee at the Pabst. By the way, not a ton of tickets left for that. Very few. And the Pabst is a nice venue. You want to go there? The 19th in Minneapolis. Get your asses in there right now. Minneapolis. Buy those tickets. Don't let Milwaukee embarrass you. Really. Dallas on October 3rd. Dallas. Big theater there, too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that the Texas theater or is it bigger?

[James Petregallo]

I think it might be. I think it's the. I'm not sure.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's the Majestic.

[James Petregallo]

The Majestic. That's where we're at. Yes. The 16th in San Jose, October 17th in Sacramento, and then November 13th and 14th in Tarrytown, New York and Boston. So catch us there. Shut up and give me murder.com follow on social media. We are Small town Murder on Instagram, Smalltown Pod on Facebook. So get in there. Definitely do all of that. And definitely get Patreon. That's what you need. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get everything we put out. As soon as you subscribe, you're going to get almost 400 back bonus episodes you've never heard before. Then new ones every other week. So that is including this week, which you get for crime and sports. We're going to talk about that weird Christian television power team that was around in the 90s where they would. They would like bench press 400 pounds and then go, thank you, Jesus. And like the brains would be popping out of their heads and they were looking at phone books and shit. It's crazy. And then later on, of course, the guy who ran it got into some trouble and then the whole thing fell apart. Obviously. Then for small town murder, Internet salad time. We're gonna go around the Internet. We're gonna find everything that's going on in the world that has nothing to do with politics though, because we feel like you probably hear enough of that shit. So we're going to go and we're going to find all the silly shit that doesn't matter and we're going to make fun of it. That's all. It's a fun day. Can't wait for you guys to do that. Patreon.com crimeinsports and in addition to that, you get a shout out. Well, first you get everything. We put out all ad free as well. Everything. We put out all the shows. Then in addition to that, you get a shout out which is right now just Jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful, wonderful people in the world who would never ever stand up and beg for the death penalty while yelling at the jurors, they're not that stupid. Our listeners are smart. Jimmy hit me with them right fucking now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This was executive producer Gary Howard in Livingston, Texas. Simon shedd over there. Simon. It's his birthday.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, happy birthday, Simon. Simon and Jordan, we miss you over here on this side of the pond. It's been too long.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Winter. Steinway as well. Thank you all so much for everything you do. Other producers this week. Peyton Meadows, Monsanha. It's his birthday as well.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus. From the other side of the pond. Another.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's going to come over to tarrytown for Christ's sake. That's going to be wild.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, we'll have to show him a good time after the show. He's been a fan since like the second crime and sports episode.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So go have drinks with this man.

[James Petregallo]

We got to have a put one back with him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Scott. Richard or Richard. He's in Maricopa. Copa, Arizona.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy. Poor bastard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm sorry. Happy hours in Sedalia, Missouri this week. Good for you, buddy.

[James Petregallo]

How about that?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's watch out for tornadoes. Janice Hill. Penny Boyce. Desmond Thorne. One. Yeah, she's great. She's been.

[James Petregallo]

She's always on there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thank you.

[James Petregallo]

Janice Hill.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Claire Tiscarina. To Scornia. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Teshara. The older basement. No.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To scorn.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Becky Kinsling, Elliot Botello, Jason Hussoon. Husson. Maritza Hoviner. Hoviner Hoviner. Athena Ray, Elijah Glaser, Andrew Hagland, Angie Hines. Beef Baby Boy. Yeah. Sarah Carlton, Shawna or Shona Young. Joseph Hardigan. Lou with no last name. Elliot Clark. Shock Jello Joseph Jojo o'. Sullivan. Dominique Cheney. It's not Cheney. That's two E's. Marianne Bengzo. Good for you. Betty Costello, Jennifer Kukin, Janae cb Jim Heath, Susie Q. Carls. Ella with no last name. Mariella Formachoni. And then also she got two. That's two patrons for Mary Ella Formachone. Coney. Coney. Perhaps Germinder. Germinder. Ronda Hawa. Yep. Jeanette.

[James Petregallo]

What is it say? Ron Howard. What was that?

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, Jerminder. Ronda. Aha.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, Ronda. Howa. I thought you said Ron Howard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was like, yeah, maybe that's what it is in another Ron Howard.

[James Petregallo]

Patreon. Wow. Not bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jeanette Midland Jordan Joselson. Joselyn Katie Zolo, Tasha Knight, Ann Perry, Leslie Rowland, Skip with no last name. Amy T. Elijah or Alicia Irajeta. Irajita. Haley Kirtner, Cameron Bullard, Gregory Barachi, Michelle Talarico, Larissa Gilmore, Joy Ritter, Huizinga Private Butters. Yeah, probably not a person. Mikey Indigo Nate Nerissa, Milo Hobb, T. Money, Oscar Borg, Elizabeth with no last name. Jennifer Squire. Giannisa with no last name.

[James Petregallo]

Ted.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fred. Fred Bread. Danielle Christensen, Brooks Patterson, Krista Rittinger, Amanda S. Brooke Crowley, Lex Lucifer, Amy Trauff, Brenna Kromka. Laura with no last name. Casey Hudson, Melanie Cronin, Nikki with no last name. Alex with no last name. Hope Llewellyn. Yep, Llewellyn. Jennifer Simpson, Karen Coraver, Stephanie with no last name. Melissa Spittle, Damian Siegler, Jacqueline Lamar, Aaron Miller, Soggy Head of Lettuce, Tiffany Hamm, Christy Piatella. Piatilla Joe. Mama. Probably a not a real person.

[James Petregallo]

Well, you never know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jimmy Lance, Nigel Williams Croy, Aloysius Pockets, Roasty Shins. I don't know what that means. It's a bunch of words. Susan with no last name. Don Livingston, Sarah Small, Chris Rouse. Susan Jerin, Jerine Max with no last name. Chris o' Mara Wyatt Wade, Gail Briggs, Dom the Blind. Oh, that's Dom. Maddie G. Joe with no last name. Christina Benjamin, Michelle Darren, Annie with no last name. Tara with no last name. John Perkins. Heather with no last name. Cora Jane. Three rats in a trench coat. John Bella. Aaron Arnold. Tammy with no last name. Erica Collins. Jessica Freeman. Aaron Hardman. Denise McLeod. Sarah Lundgren. Anna Russell with no last. Randy with no last name. Anna's last name is Russell. That's true. Holly T. Kayla Abert. Zachary Cannon. Susan Surf. Sunshin Sunshine with no e wit. Brendan Gauze.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brad Warren. Chelsea Ball. Kara Brigham. Brigham. Kelly McKenzie. Madeline Fahey. Rachel Hayes. Doug Griffey. Jessica Ward. Leslie Battler. Kelsey Scherzinger. Andrea Leonardo. Megan Farrow. Cue. Ron France. Terrence. Nope, that's Tarika de Oliveira. Michelle Ulsch. Melissa Surly. Serral. Jeremy Mazes. Timo with no last name. Karen with no last name. Owen Butkovich. Eliza. Elisa. Elisa. It's probably Elisa. All right. Barnes, Lauren with no last name. Ren Miller. Trisha Lip Trap. Okay. Rachel Francis. Rachel Deck. Peter Pants. Probably not. Harley Elliott. Stephanie Lasko. And every person that patrons this show. Thank you so much.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you, everybody, so much. Goddammit, thank you. You guys are the best. We appreciate everything you do for us. Thank you so much. If you'd like to follow us on social media or find out any other thing about us, shut up and give me Murder as the place to go. And it's all redone the site, it's very user friendly. It looks really great. So get in there, get some tickets, follow us, do all of that shit. Keep coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, everybody. Listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi. Hello. Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates. Yes, Come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville. March 6th, 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets though, to your stupid opinions. On the 21st of March, Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2. May 29, Buffalo, sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30, we have September 18, Milwaukee. September 19, Minneapolis. October 3 in Dallas. October 16 in San Jose. October 17 in Sacramento. November 13 in Tarrytown. November 14 in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Make some new friends.

[James Petregallo]

Like crazy. And make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and give me Murder. Dot com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

See you on the road.