Meaningless Mutilation Murders - Farmington, New Mexico

Summary

Small Town Murder Podcast Summary

Episode: "Meaningless Mutilation Murders - Farmington, New Mexico"
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Release Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the disturbing and senseless series of murders committed in and around Farmington, New Mexico, over several years. The hosts, James and Jimmie, blend deep investigative research with their signature dark humor, digging into both the crimes themselves and the bizarre culture of Farmington. At the center of the story is Robert "Bobby" Fry, a compulsive liar, outcast, and knife-obsessed local who evolves from a braggadocios nerd to a chilling, convicted serial killer. His spree involves random brutality, multiple weapons, several hapless accomplices, and a huge dose of almost slapstick incompetence on the part of both offenders and law enforcement.

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Key Discussion Points & Episode Timeline

[06:26] Introducing Farmington, NM

• Jimmie’s deep hatred for New Mexico: Jimmie humorously rails on Farmington, calling it "his least favorite state" and drawing laughs with descriptions of local misery, crime, and meth.
• Town background: Farmington is near the Four Corners, originally called Junction City, and has a diverse population including a large Native American community.

[10:07] Farmington in Review

• The town is notorious for crime, poverty, and harsh reviews from locals.
• “We have it all here. Meth, crack, severe alcoholism, homelessness, and an almost non-existent police force.” (James, 11:34)
• The only positive consensus: People are oddly friendly.

[19:00] “Exciting” Local Attractions

• Local entertainment primarily consists of metal festivals with bands named like Elite Alliance, Blood of Lilith, and Decapitation of a New Day.
• Property and violent crime rates are well above national averages.

[22:03] The Murders Begin: Discovery of Betty Lee ([22:03])

• In June 2000, an electrical line inspector in a rural area near Kirtland discovers a fresh, partially undressed female body (Betty Lee) after noticing a blood trail—against all self-preservation.
• Crime scene is bloody and chaotic: fresh body, sledgehammer, knife, women’s clothing, three sets of footprints, and three mismatched tire treads.

[34:51] The First Big Break: Cell Phone Leads to Suspects

• Investigators find a cell phone on scene, belonging to tow truck driver Charles Bergin, not the victim. He reveals he’d towed a stuck Ford Aspire (with mismatched tires) and a pickup the previous night, and that his customers were Bobby Fry and Leslie Eng.

[36:00] Deep Dive: Who is Robert “Bobby” Fry?

• Background: Last of four kids in an intact family, his mother a probation department administrator.
• The “Ketchup Incident”: At age 3, traumatized when a babysitter’s kids cover themselves in ketchup pretending to be dead—a story wielded later by defense psychiatrists.
• Bullied, then a bully: Fat, picked-on kid with poor grades and left-handedness (second point frequently mentioned). Obsessed with knives, Dungeons & Dragons, Vampire: The Masquerade, and later, telling crazy, violent stories of bar fights and Navy SEAL heroism that no one believes.
• Voluntarily joins the fire department and Navy, both with little actual accomplishment—dishonorably discharged.

“He’s the guy at the bar still telling stories about being a Navy SEAL but couldn’t even make it through basic.” (James, 51:31)

[70:45] Prelude Murders: The Eclectic Knife Shop Slayings

• November 1996: Fry and friend Harold “Harley” Pollock get drunk, decide to rob “The Eclectic,” a local head shop packed with fantasy swords and knives.
• Days later, after Thanksgiving, Fry and Pollock return, murder two local regulars (Joe Fleming and 18-year-old Matthew Trekker) in a brutal frenzy involving both stabbing and attempted decapitation with decorative, blunt swords.
• The duo then ransack the shop, try to clean evidence, but are nearly trapped inside when the key breaks in the door.
• Investigation yields only a single shoeprint and little real evidence. Bobby is mentioned to police, but his lies are dismissed as bullshit. The case goes cold.

[96:44] More Missing: Unsolved Connections

• November 1997 & May 1998: Two young men close to Bobby (Travis Killen and Purnell Tawinganatua) both disappear after last being seen with him. Their bodies are never found.

[104:30] The Next Accomplice: Leslie Eng, the “Baby Chicken”

• 1998: Fry finds a new sidekick, 22-year-old philosophical, poetry-writing nerd and “trench coat kid” Leslie Eng, described as looking “like a baby chicken.”
• In March 1998, the pair meet Donald Tsosi, a Navajo man who’d come into town to sell plasma. Eng strangles Donald from the backseat and then both dump him into a canyon, beating and stabbing him in the eyes with sticks.

[116:34] Murder of Betty Lee: The Crime that Unravels Everything

• June 2000: After a night out goes wrong, Betty Lee is abandoned by friends and stranded outside a 7-11.
• Fry and Eng, looking for someone to victimize and with Bobby voicing his intent to “stick somebody tonight,” offer Betty a ride. She’s wary and tries to escape, but is overtaken, stabbed, beaten with a sledgehammer, and left in the brush. The duo’s car gets stuck, requiring their parents and a tow truck to retrieve them, leaving behind critical evidence—most importantly, the found cell phone.

[132:34] The Investigation and Evidence Pile Up

• Police link the stuck car and cell phone to Fry and Eng. A search finds bloody boots and t-shirt, car smeared with blood, a matching earring, and corresponding tire treads. Witnesses confirm Fry was armed and stated intent.

[136:06] Interrogations and Confessions

• Fry refuses to talk. Eng quickly confesses, breaks down, and details the crime—including their earlier murder of Donald Tsosi (“rolling Indians”).
• “I grabbed her legs when I was told to, and I looked for his knife… the screaming was just horrid. I wake up in cold sweats to this day.” (Leslie Eng, 168:00)

[139:47] The Past Catches Up: Immunity Deals and More Confessions

• Under pressure, former accomplice Harley Pollock confesses his role in the Eclectic murders, confirming details only the killer would know.

[141:37] Serial Killer Confirmed

• Detectives suspect Fry in multiple other disappearances and murders but lack evidence. FBI considers him a serial killer given multiple murders across years.

[145:43] Trials, Testimony, and Sentencing

• Trials for Lee and Tsosi’s murder result in death penalty for Fry, life for Eng (via plea), and, after much wrangling, two life sentences for Pollock due to his limited cooperation (and refusal to testify).
• Fry’s distinctive dumb lies, knife obsessions (he named his blades), “Indian rolling,” and bloody clothes all figure heavily in conviction.

[152:34] Victim Impact Statements

• The families—a chorus of heartbreak, especially Betty Lee’s—testify about their losses and the shattering impact.
• The “mitigating factors” offered by Fry’s defense (the ketchup incident, bullying, being forced to switch writing hands) are ridiculed.
• Betty Lee’s brother: she was “a loving, ambitious woman who only wanted to give back as a nurse.”
• Notable quote:
  “There was no damn excuse for what happened to him.” (Fry’s statement at sentencing, 156:34)

[157:18] Final Tally: Sentences and Aftermath

• Fry: One death sentence (later commuted), multiple consecutive life sentences (no parole for 165 years).
• Eng: 40 years, plus additional time for other convictions.
• Pollock: Two life sentences for accessory to murder.
• Both Fry and Eng become religious and penitent in prison, with Fry repeatedly photographed clutching a Bible and Eng turning to teaching and poetry.

[169:07] Reflections and Mishaps

• Extensive post-conviction wrangling, including the exposure of an attorney working both sides of Fry and Pollock's cases and mishaps by the local D.A.
• The death penalty repealed in New Mexico in 2009; Fry’s sentence is commuted to life in 2019.
• Fry remains in maximum security; Eng, introspective but seen as callously manipulative; both universally despised by the victims' families.

[185:26] Where Are They Now?

• The Eclectic closed. Victims buried locally. Fry and Eng remain in New Mexico prison (with Fry’s cumulative parole eligibility in the 2160s).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fry’s tall tales:
  “He’s a giant 13-year-old. It’s pathetic… He’s been every village person except the Indian.”
  (James, 58:25)

• On Fry’s knife obsession:
  “If you name your knives, I’m worried about you.”
  (James, 52:30)

• On Farmington’s atmosphere:
  “Arizona is a giant meth lab and so is New Mexico…”
  (James, 14:07)

• On the Eclectic murders:
  “Let’s cut his head off.”
  (Fry to Pollock, 82:39)

• On victims’ families:
  “She was going to come back to the reservation and serve as a child nurse and help the people.”
  (Betty Lee’s brother, 146:51)

• On the “ketchup incident” defense:
  “I skip that aisle at the grocery store. Can’t even get peanut butter and jelly. Same aisle!”
  (Jimmie, 148:21)

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Key Timestamps

• 06:26 – Farmington's location & host’s personal feelings
• 10:07 – “Best” reviews & town statistics
• 22:03 – Discovery of Betty Lee’s body
• 34:51 – Cell phone evidence; suspects named
• 36:00 – Bobby Fry’s backstory & psychological profile
• 70:45 – The Eclectic double murder
• 96:44 – Disappearances linked to Bobby Fry
• 104:30 – Entry of Leslie Eng
• 116:34 – Abandonment and murder of Betty Lee
• 136:06 – Police close in, forensic details
• 145:43 – Trial, testimony, and sentences
• 152:34 – Victim impact testimony
• 169:07 – Aftermath, appeals, and commutation

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Tone and Takeaways

James and Jimmie’s comedic banter threads throughout the episode, balancing horror and absurdity (particularly around Fry’s flamboyant lies, small town quirks, and official incompetence) without ever mocking victims. The tragedy is underscored by the randomness of the violence, Fry’s self-destructiveness, and the failures of Farmington’s criminal justice system to prevent additional deaths. Farmington, the “meth-soaked desert metal town,” becomes its own dark character.

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For Further Reading & Viewing

• Forensic Files, Season 10, Episode 24: "On the Floor"
• Book: Monster Slayer by Robert Scott

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Summary in a Nutshell

A lonely, delusional outcast with a knife fetish and a legacy of lies turns violent, dragging equally lost locals into a killing spree marked by senseless brutality and almost comedic incompetence. Farmington’s only break: a tow truck driver’s lost cell phone. A town’s malaise, a series of avoidable deaths, and a justice system that slowly grinds, but doesn’t forget.

Transcript

[A]

We all prefer things a certain way, like groceries. If you want groceries just how you like them, you gotta try Instacart. They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences upfront, helping guide their choices. Because when it comes to groceries, the details matter. Instacart get groceries just how you like.

[B]

This week in Farmington, New Mexico. A series of strange murders, all very brutal but very different from each other, happen over the course of a couple years. Until a tow truck drop driver's phone found near a murder scene leads to a serial killer and his two accomplices. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[C]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[B]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy, wild, I mean really awful, just bad edition of Small Town.

[C]

It's so funny.

[B]

It's a bad spot. We spent so much time here in Farmington, New Mexico. Out for work, right? Yeah, for aps. Yes, for the electric company.

[C]

But don't say that.

[B]

Well, that's where you worked for years. Fuck them because you're not working for them anymore. Jimmy worked for them for years, fucking didn't do half his work. They still paid him. It doesn't matter. They can't do a damn thing about it now.

[C]

It's all over.

[B]

Eat dicks, aps. Here we are. Doesn't that feel good to be able to do. Put that out on Netflix. Suck a dick, aps. That is fantastic. I love it. I'm so happy for you right now. That's great. Yes. So we will do.

[C]

Fuck you. I mean, thank you.

[B]

I mean, thank you so much for years of gainful employment. So we'll get into all of that and the Farmington and everything about that. Before we do, definitely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your tickets to live shows, everybody. Also, merchandise, everything you could want, from shower curtains to coffee cups to skateboards. In addition to that, get your tickets. September 18th, Milwaukee at the Pabst. We love the Pabst. Great venue for us and for the audience and for everything. Can't wait to go there. And then September 19, Minneapolis, at the State Theater. Get your tickets right now. Minneapolis, Milwaukee. Those seats are going fast. You want to get those tickets pretty soon. Minneapolis. You better start getting some more tickets. Get in there.

[C]

You better figure it Out.

[B]

Yeah. And then October 3rd, Dallas. October 16th, San Jose. October 17th, Sacramento. November 13th, Tarrytown. November 14th, Boston. So get your asses in there and come see us. Shut up and give me murder dot com. It's going to be awesome. We can't wait. In addition to that, you definitely want to listen to our other two shows, Crime in sports, which you don't have to like sports to like, trust me. And also your stupid opinions, because who does like reading terrible reviews of things it's funny. And making fun of the reviewers. So check those out. Get yourself patreon, my friends. Patreon.com crimeinsports Just like the name of that other show you should listen to. That's where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything we put out, including as soon as you subscribe, you're gonna get almost 400 back bonus episodes you've never seen before. You'll get those. That's like a whole other whole other feed to binge. And then you get new ones every other week. One crime and sports and one small town murder. You get them all, everybody. And this week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, we're going to talk about the Christian power team. There are these guys on TV in the 90s that would do street, what is it called? Feats of strength. Super feats of strength. I was calling peaks of strength Feats of strength, where they would bend a rebar or rip a phone book or bench press £500 and then scream, thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

[C]

You did it.

[B]

They would do all that. Turns out it was more, thank you, anabolic steroids. And also there's some scandal that happens, some tricks. Some tricks. Then for small town murder, it is Internet salad time, everybody. Hey, we're gonna go all over the Internet and find everything that we find entertaining to make fun of, except for politics, because we feel like you probably get enough of that everywhere else. So we'll fill in the gaps. So fun in between. It's a lot of fun. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get everything we put out all the shows, crime and sports, you, stupid opinion. Small town murder all ad free with your Patreon.

[C]

Ad free.

[B]

Ad free with your Patreon. And you get a shout out at the the show too, Jimmy, I'll mispronounce your name all sorts of different ways. That said, disclaimer time. Hey, everybody. We're comedians.

[C]

Afraid so.

[B]

This is a comedy show fright. So we're gonna make jokes and there's gonna be dead people. Because it'd be a really weird show if it was called Small Town Murder and it had no dead people. So that's how it works. And you go, how does that work? That sounds awful. Why would you guys do that? Well, to me, I think it's a little easier way to digest the murder, to get some jokes around it rather than the odd murder porn way some people go about it. And that's fine if that's what you're into, but I mean. And then her head was removed from her body, and so I'm a little creeped out while scary music plays. No, no, no. We try to put a little humor in it. We don't do though. What we go out of our way not to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[C]

Why is that, James?

[B]

Because we're assholes.

[C]

But.

[B]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's very easy. It's a very easy thing to do there. So that's all it is. There's plenty other stuff to make fun of. Small towns. Who cares? We somewhere that's worthy of being made fun of. Maybe a police force that lets a murderer go free for years, killing more people maybe a murderer will make fun of. Because fuck them. And what recourse do we have other than make fun of them? We're comedians. We can't go to the jail and get their honey buns taken away. They won't let us get their ramen taken away. All we can do is make fun of them. So if that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a crazy show. If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together. We might not be for you, but we might be. So I would check it out. And either way, no complaining later or you'll end up on your stupid op. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say here, let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky, and let's all shout Shut up. Forgive me, murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we?

[C]

Oh, my.

[B]

Here we go. We're going to a place Jimmy is familiar with. By the way, Jimmy hates New Mexico.

[C]

I do.

[B]

It's his least favorite state. This is Farmington, New Mexico.

[C]

This is one of the reasons I hate it.

[B]

You've been forced to spend something horrible. That's what I hear from the reviews that we'll get into in a little while.

[C]

It is Horrible.

[B]

It's in northwestern New Mexico. So close to the. Kind of. To that Northern Arizona.

[C]

The Four Corners area.

[B]

The Four Corners and all of that. It's about three hours to Albuquerque. About three and a half hours to Santa Fe. And six hours to our last New Mexico episode, Hondo, New Mexico, which was episode 517.

[C]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

This is 701. It's been a long time. That was Slaughter at Bloody Ranch, which I believe is the one. That was the ranch, I think, Sam Donaldson owned. Wasn't that the.

[C]

I believe that's true.

[B]

It was so long ago, I can't even remember. So that's pretty crazy. This is in San Juan county, area code 505 nickname. And I really couldn't figure out why. But it is called Baseball Town, usa. What? Not Cooperstown. Not plenty of these other places.

[C]

Farmington.

[B]

Farmington, New Mexico. Baseball Town, usa. Okay.

[C]

I have no idea why. Because. Would you rather get hit out of here?

[B]

That makes no sense. Now, a little bit of history of this town. Obviously, it was and still is very much populated by Native Americans through centuries and all that kind of thing. Spanish and American mineral prospecting happened in this area. But there wasn't a lot of permanent settlements because you've been. It's not a place you look at and go setting up shop. Can't wait, Lay the foundation. Everybody. I know where I'm moving. There's three rivers that come through here. So it was originally known as Junction City. Junction city. But by 1901. Junction City. By 1901, it was named Farmington and Incorporated. And they had 548 people. March 18, 1950, and we might do a bonus episode on this. Farmington was the site of a mass UFO sight in which over half the town's population reported seeing large saucers in the sky flying at rapid speeds. This was like 5,000 people said they saw this. This wasn't two drunk guys, you know, in the woods. And they also, you know, were like, fucking taking ether and shit. Like, this is 5,000 normal people saw.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So we gotta do a. We're.

[C]

They saw saucers or light.

[B]

They saw saucers, large saucers in the sky flying at rapid speeds.

[C]

Was this at daytime? I need to know everything.

[B]

Probably nighttime. Daytime. You could see exactly what it is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. In 1967, part of a joint US government El Paso Electric operation an underground Nuclear detonation occurred 50 miles east of Farmington. And apparently this was the pilot project of Operation Plowshare, codenamed Project Gas Buggy. Jesus, Was an attempt to fracture a large volume of underground bedrock to make more natural gas available for extract by wells. We set off nuclear weapons to try to get more gas out of the ground.

[C]

Doesn't that seem like that would ignite the gas?

[B]

You know what? I'm not gonna get into the science

[C]

of it because that seems dangerous.

[B]

Seems well above our pay grade. Number one. And number two.

[C]

50 miles. That's not far enough.

[B]

That's not far enough. That's what I'm thinking. Maybe that's the problem with this town. Maybe there's some fallout. There's gotta be some radiation leaking out. I don't know what's going on.

[C]

That would explain a whole lot.

[B]

Again, we're not scientists, in case you were wondering. Okay. It's a true crime podcast told by two scientists. Reviews of this town. Let's find out what other people think. We know Jimmy thinks it sucks. Maybe other people like it. Let's find out.

[C]

Oh, there's no fucking way somebody likes this place.

[B]

It's got 3.5 stars on niche, which is not great. And that's like I said, you wouldn't eat Chinese food If it was 3.5 stars. And that's with a lot of reviews too. Here's five stars. I love this town.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Love it. Farmington doesn't need any changes, to be honest. Perfect.

[C]

They've never stayed in a hotel here.

[B]

Perfect. This town is filled with uniqueness and diversity. Everyone here is always nice and greeting.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Are they nice?

[C]

I disagree with that. Everybody there was very nice. Every time I've gone to.

[B]

At least they're friendly. That's good. Well, if they're not friendly, no one's ever stopping there again.

[C]

But I've. And if you stay in a hotel in Farmington, ask to see it before you pay.

[B]

Oh, I bet.

[C]

Oh, man. I've never. I spent my whole per diem on the weekend paying for a room. Getting into it and going. Nope. And going to another one.

[B]

I think you're replacing an M with an h also there.

[C]

100%.

[B]

I think there's a lot of motels here.

[C]

There's not a lot of hotels there.

[B]

No, I wouldn't think here is one star. Okay. Farmington is an Indian town with high crime and little to do.

[C]

I didn't know there was that, but okay.

[B]

Farmington is one of only 10 metro areas in the Southwest U.S. rated as most dangerous places to live in the

[C]

U.S. how dare they call that metro?

[B]

Metro, I was gonna say. What metro is that? There's nothing metropolitan about this very metropolitan. I know it's cosmopolitan, but we're still. We'll say it's number 33 out of 50 US metro areas rated most dangerous. Poor school, high crime, horrible local government. Just a sad, dirty town. Only good thing I can say about it is people are friendly.

[C]

They really are.

[B]

That's what I mean. They have to be. Yeah.

[C]

And they make a damn fine cup of coffee. I'll say that, too.

[B]

They're fighting with each other because they're miserable. They're all. And then a visitor comes in. They're like, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. Hey, y', all, how you doing? Yeah, come on in. Yeah. No, this is Fred, my best friend.

[C]

They're not from around here. They don't know that we hate each other.

[B]

They had knives out two minutes ago and they're like, shut up, shut up. Here comes a car without estate plates. Everybody shut the fuck up. They're from Utah. Stop.

[C]

They got Arizona plates.

[B]

Everybody one star. We have it all here. Meth, crack, severe alcoholism, homelessness, and an almost non existent police force.

[C]

They said that.

[B]

They said that the housing is still priced as if. The oil field is booming, but hasn't been booming in years. And did I mention that's the only major source of income here? I hope you like working at McDonald's and dealing with belligerent, racist, drunken people all the time just to live in an apartment with six other people. That's very.

[C]

Strangers.

[B]

That's what I mean. Seems like there was no choice. They just got assigned five roommates or six roommates. I've lived here most of my life and I've watched it go from bad to worse. It's unfortunate because the landscape is so unique and beautiful, but the ignorant, horrible people who live here make it unbearable. We're also next to towns with some of the highest sexual assault levels in the country. Then all caps in this sentence. Don't ever take your eyes off your children here. Jesus Christ. Just pedal to the metal if you got kids in the car. And we boast some of the highest DWI DUI fatalities in the state. Most of the people here have no license. And six plus DUIs over six. Wow. And you have six roommates and six DUIs. Sounds like a very balanced thing. Our justice system is a joke and half the cops won't take down the meth labs. I can't wait to leave this hellhole.

[C]

I didn't know there was meth there, but I mean, the Southwest.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just getting. When you pull into town, you go what do you do? I mean, I'd probably have to do drugs to be here.

[B]

Yeah. If you see sand, there's meth there, period. If you see dirt like that, like Arizona is a giant meth lab and so is New Mexico and so. And that area, southern Utah and southern Colorado.

[C]

Yeah. Four Corners area. You could drive a 20 mile radius circle. It never changes. The landscape is the same.

[B]

It's exactly the same. People in this town. 46,696. It's a lot.

[C]

That's shocking.

[B]

It's gone up a lot since like 2002. They've gotten a lot more people, more women than men. 50.9% women. Median age here is low. 34.7. That usually has something to do with outdoor jobs for the most part is what they're doing.

[C]

Yeah. Dangerous shit.

[B]

Yeah. Family in this town, it's about 45% married, which is below the national average. More people have single with children also here, but not a lot more. Race of this town, it is 45.5% white, 1.2% black, 0.8% Asian, 24.5% Native American, which is the rest of the country. It's like 0.7% in the whole United States, so that's a lot. And then 24.9% Hispanic as well.

[C]

And you have to drive through native reservations to get here too.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. Like everywhere. Window rock or something.

[C]

I mean, there's something rock. There's several rocks that you have to go through to get there.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. There's sliprock around here. I know.

[C]

Shiprock.

[B]

Shiprock. There you go. Because that's in the story. 41.3% of the people here are religious, which is below the national average. They looked around and they're like. Like there's no God. No God made this.

[C]

Fuck this.

[B]

Don't blame God for this shit. Nevermind.

[C]

This place is hell on earth.

[B]

And it is like spread around too. There's no dominant religion or anything. Unemployment rate here a little bit high really. But the median household income is a little bit low. So that's not great. $56,045 a year is household. And it's 69,000 in the rest of the country. Cost of living, that makes it real important. 100 is regular par. Average here it's 80.

[C]

That's not great. I mean it's helpful, but it's not great.

[B]

It's not great. The housing is the low thing here, which I guess that's good. Median home cost here, $216,100, which is too much, but also cheaper than everywhere else. If we have convinced you with all of our propping up of this place, that the only place on earth for you is Farmington, New Mexico, you're in luck. Because we have for you the Farmington, New Mexico real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here, $1,050. Okay, that's lower than the national average, but again, seems high. Here is a three bedroom, two bath, 980 square foot, but ugly trailer. Yeah, it's a trailer, but they have put somehow green wood paneling on the outside. I've never seen a trailer with wood paneling on it with like, you know, siding. It's got siding. It's got wood siding on it and it's green.

[C]

I wonder if it's that tongue and groove channel shit.

[B]

I don't know. It's not helping either way. Whatever's cheapest, I would say, is what it is based on the inside that the stove in the place looks like it's in an apartment in 1982. It's horrifying. It is. No land, no acreage or anything like that. 980 square feet. 39,999 bucks for that. And probably lot rent, lot fees too. Yep. This next one is a depressing looking house on the outside. Inside's not too bad. The outside, it just sits on this lot that is just barren and it's just ugly. Man, it is ugly scenery. Three bedroom, three bath. Technically a T bowl for each and every beehive. 1904 square feet, 0.29 acres of dirt and gravel. $200,000 for that.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And inside it could use some updating, but nice wood. It's got really nice hardwood floors throughout that look really like really nice wood. Decent, which is very strange. And it says it's being sold as is, which is never good. Next up, three bedroom, six bath. That's a T bowl for each and every B hole and some more for the neighbors. 5,690 square feet.

[C]

A3.6.

[B]

Big old house. Three bedroom, six bath. You can tell it's newer because they started doing that. Five acres of desert looks like you get here. But the inside's very nicely done. The kitchen's very large. It's very fancy. It looks like a little resort is what it looks like. $1,775,000. Almost $2,000,000 to live in Farmington.

[C]

Farmington. You.

[B]

Wow. Well, luckily if you do spend that kind of money, there are things to do here. So let's find out what those Are. Okay. The New Mexico Core Fest.

[C]

Core.

[B]

Core Fest. Like hardcore? Oh, yeah. Metal axe. Hardcore axe, yeah, shit like that. This is the. I'm gonna read you the 2025 lineup here. It says that it features a lineup of heavy metal and hardcore acts from across the Four Corners region. So these are local people. These are desert hardcore acts. They didn't even bring in anybody from LA or anything.

[C]

Local acts to make a festival, apparently.

[B]

So here are the bands that they had. Elite alliance, which is an Arizona band. It says Blood of Lilith. Lilith, like Frasier's wife? Yeah, Frasier. Yeah. Lilith Fair. Grave of the Monuments. Okay. Taj T A J. Taj of One Less. I don't even know what that means.

[C]

The fuck? Stop trying to be so fucking interesting.

[B]

See, the next one is so much better. See, they're trying to be all Taj of One Less. The next one just dry heave. That's so much better. That's so much more descriptive.

[C]

Right on the nose.

[B]

Dry heave. Cinematica. I like this one. Decapitation of a New Day.

[C]

Gonna cut the new day's head off.

[B]

Anticipation of a new day will go. Decapitation. Inimicus. I don't know. Who knows? Inimicus. One last summer, I guess, before you're dead. Because all these have death themes.

[C]

We're just gonna do this last one. Yeah.

[B]

Mirari M I R A R. I like, I guess Ferrari, but with Mirage and a Ferrari together with less Rs. Broken chains and Falling Fire will be there also.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There's also a Four Corners Metal Festival as well. I don't know what's going on with this area, but it's all metal shit.

[C]

Native Americans do love metal music. And if Ozzfest skipped Albuquerque and came here.

[B]

I know that was very sweet. You know, Native Americans love hardcore metal music. Okay. All of them. What do you.

[C]

I realize it sounds awful, but if they skipped Albuquerque for Ozfest, they would come here and then Ozfest here would be a giant population of Native Americans here. But if they skipped here and went there, I guess they watched it. I don't know. I didn't go to Albuquerque to see it.

[B]

There's a few bands here. There's a lot of bands. Most of them have names like Class Violence, Obliteration, Million Dead, Hell Thrown, you know, metal shit. So there's that crime rate in this town. What we are interested in here. Property Crime is about 1/3 above the national average. So high. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 50% above the national average. So it's high here.

[C]

Pretty dangerous.

[B]

There's some shit going down that said, let's dive right in, let's talk about some murder. What do you say?

[C]

Here? Let's go.

[B]

Okay. June 7th, 2000. Let's start there.

[C]

Oh, fairly recent.

[B]

Yeah, you know, 26 years. But I mean, it's not like black and white times. It's not the 70s here. We can all picture 2000, I think now it's a Wednesday afternoon or Wednesday morning. Mid morning, you know, 10:30, 11:00'. Clock. There's an electrical line inspector.

[C]

Mm.

[B]

Jimmy's like, mm, tell me more. He's got the wand. He's doing his whole thing. He's working the rural electrification grid south of Kirtland. Near Twin Mounds.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. He's driving slowly along a dirt road looking for a particular pole. Sure. He notices off the side of the road, this guy is very. He's looking for a pole, mind you. Yeah.

[C]

Supposed to be looking up. Motherfucker. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know why you're looking at the ground, at the dirt, but he notices off the road what looks like. Tell me if you'd notice, you've driven an electric truck through areas like this, would you notice what looks like a trail of blood drops in the dust?

[C]

No. And also, I would not follow that.

[B]

Don't care what that is. I don't know what animals do to each other, what people do to each other. Not my business.

[C]

But in this area, you find a blood trail, there's probably a family of coyotes dining on something. You don't want to see it.

[B]

You want no pun, part of that shit? No. This guy not only somehow notices blood drops in a dust trail. Somehow. And he said at first he thought, oh, I bet somebody poached a deer. Because there's a. I guess the Four Corners area has a lot of problem with off season deer hunting around here. They do, apparently so. So, you know, he said he's seen this before. So he's. A trail of blood in a dirt road is. You know, he's seen it before because people are poaching deer.

[C]

It's a lot of blood.

[B]

So this guy, in addition, they're poaching deer is what he thinks. So he's looking for a pole. He's at work, he's looking for a pole, sees blood drops, thinks that's probably a deer got poached. He says, better get out and make sure.

[C]

Make sure.

[B]

Which is again, put yourself in this guy's place. I'm Driving. I'm not getting out if it's not a deer. Whatever made that, that blood trail is now gonna try to make me a blood trail too.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm out of here going.

[C]

There's gotta be a list of numbers that you call when you suspect that, Right?

[B]

It's not my problem.

[C]

Turn it in and roll.

[B]

It's not the electric company guy's problem. Probably. Probably not up there. So the trail leads off the road through low brush, and he comes across a human body.

[C]

That's his fault.

[B]

What should say. You begged for this, sir.

[C]

You asked. You definitely asked.

[B]

For whoever's family, this is, this is a great thing. But for him, not so great. It's an adult female, partially undressed. Now the body is covered with just kind of some sticks and some brush and some.

[C]

You know, there's not a lot of.

[B]

Not a lot of foliage out there. There's not a lot of vegetation. There's not like you can't go break a branch off the oak tree and lay it on top or anything like that. It looked like basically the way you just throw some shit that you. On top of a body. So it wouldn't be super visible if you were just looking over the area quickly. But it's obvious that you can see it in daylight from a few feet away, that it's a body under some sticks and some leaves.

[C]

And the body was leaking all the way to the final destination.

[B]

Well, dragged or carried because it's dropped, so could have been carried and dropped there. So the electric company guy sees this and goes, oh, this is way outside my purview here for sure. Calls the San Juan County Sheriff's office and deputies arrive and they secure the scene. They get the sheriff and everybody all hands on deck here because this is a fresh body. This is not a. Hasn't been here a while. The body is still warm to the touch. They said, oh, my God. Like it's not fully cold yet.

[C]

Even if somebody put the body there, they heard the electric guy rolling up.

[B]

Or it's a little while because it's warm out. It's June in New Mexico, so it's warm still. And that would have kept the body a little warmer. But not only that, there are three sets of footprints that they find around there too. I would assume four, but one is the electric company guy, which is another reason why you should probably just, if you suspect anything, call the cops, let them look at it, because otherwise you could be fucking up a crime scene, which is not good. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a Quick break from the show to tell you a much better way to feed your dog with Ollie.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

Now back to the show.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

Stretch it as far as it can go.

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[C]

Now back to the show.

[B]

They also find fresh tire tracks in soft sand.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Like that's something. They find a still bloody knife thrown off in the bushes.

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

Yeah, Also they find a. This is crazy. Near the road. They then find a bloody sledgehammer.

[C]

Two.

[B]

Yeah, two murder weapons. Now they found. And I like that the guy didn't see a bloody sledgehammer, but he saw droplets of blood.

[C]

He saw the droplets.

[B]

That's crazy. Then they find articles of women's clothing kind of strewn about as well here and there. So they're like, this is obviously a horrible scene. And it looks like from what the cops say, they feel like whoever did this did this before it got light outside. Because it looks like in the dark, it would look like you hid your stuff well. But in the light, it's pretty obvious to see. But in the dark you'd go, okay, I don't see anything. It's great. So the medical investigator here shows up and starts doing some work on the body here. It turns out this woman has been stabbed in the chest and bludgeoned in the head. Wow. Okay. Cause of death was blunt force head trauma. And they assume that's from the sledgehammer. Sure, the chest stab was a contributing factor, but not her main cause of death.

[C]

Frenzied.

[B]

Frenzied is what? Yeah. Multiple weapons, they're thinking, is this multiple weapons? Is this multiple offenders, multiple attackers? We don't know. So they do get three sets of shoe impressions at the scene, which mean at least two people and the victim, they said. So they figure there's two weapons and two sets of footprints besides the victims. This is probably we're talking about, you know, two attackers here. And they find the tire here. The treads on the tire marks. They find. They find three different sets of tire treads.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Which is interesting. But not from three different cars.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's just one car with Three different tire treads on it. Yeah, just somebody with shit.

[C]

Cars don't break laws when you're living like that.

[B]

No, that's. You can't live like that. You better have a. Like a buttoned up new Honda Accord or something. Just common. All four same tires, Camry or some shit with all tires that match. So then they find, on the dirt near the road, they find a cell phone. They're like, okay. They find out it does not belong to the victim. Okay, they find out who it belongs to. And it's a guy named Charles Bergamot. B E R G I N. He works for Bloomfield Towing. So they call him and he picked up the, you know, picked up the phone and he said, yes, I was out there last night. I was near twin pounds. I had a job in the pre dawn hours and lost my phone out there. So pretty happy I found it as a matter of fact.

[C]

Can I have that back?

[B]

He said, yeah, he said, I towed out a Ford Aspire out of the soft sand, which is a. A bad car. Oh, bad, bad, bad. It looks like a Ford Aspire. Looks like one of those little tykes cars you get for your kids that have the red ones with the yellow roof on it. That's what it looks like. Imagine if you made that for an adult and said, get in that and put three separate tires on it.

[C]

But the thing is, those pieces of shit, I think they came with three separate.

[B]

I think, yeah, they just said, this is what you get.

[C]

We'll put a good year a fucking.

[B]

Sorry. There's like junkyard parts in the engine they put in there. That's how we make these things, brand new.

[C]

There's junkyard parts in it.

[B]

That's what I mean. They come right off the line like that. Yeah, there's no help in it. So he said, yeah, I was getting not only a Ford Aspire out of the soft sand, but also another vehicle. There was a pickup there that I also towed out of the fucking sand. And he said I could give you. Describe the people involved. He said, I can give you names as well. I have names. He said, I got their names. They paid me in cash.

[C]

That'll be helpful.

[B]

And they said, well, who the fuck were they? And he said, well, Bobby Fry and Leslie Eng is E N G H. Not like Charles Eng, you know, the other serial killer. This is Leslie Ng. So not Asian is what I'm saying. So now let's talk about Robert Fry here quick. Bobby Fry. Robert Ray Fry, name of Bobby is what he goes by. Born August 18th, 1973. Okay, so he's 27 at this point. He's from Farmington, New Mexico. This is area. He is the last of four kids. He has one full sister and two step siblings from his father's first marriage that live with them. Dad had been married before. His dad's name is James. His mom's name is Gloria. Now this is an intact family. Wow. You know, there's no craziness at home that we know of. Gloria works for the San Juan County Probation Department. She worked for years for them. She worked for the. She is the adult misdemeanor administrator, which is. She is the. Basically she processes every adult misdemeanor case in the county.

[C]

Fascinating.

[B]

So anybody who fucks up, she knows who they are.

[C]

Basically a minimal one.

[B]

A small DUIs, disorderly, conducts thefts, you know, indecent exposure, I'm sure, shit like that. Yeah. In a bar fight, whatever. The whoops, the daisies, non felonies. So she's been there a long time, good at her job, knows all the locals, you know, well, knows the legal system. Now, a little bit about Bobby. Here is an incident that gets brought up a lot and will be brought up a lot. In every profile of him. The Radford University psychological profile, the several books, forensic files, all this thing, they all mention the same incident. Now, there's no proof of this incident. Like, you know, there's no pictures. But this is like family lore that everyone has accepted as fact.

[C]

Oh, I'm on the edge of my seat.

[B]

We have no reason to be whatever to doubt it. Age 3. This happens to Bobby, okay?

[C]

Happens to Bobby.

[B]

It happens to Bobby. It is known forevermore as the ketchup incident. All right, here we go. He's three. He's in the care of a babysitter. Now, his grandmother just died within the month at 3. But I mean, you don't even know what debt is at three.

[C]

Yeah, you barely know your grandma.

[B]

You barely know anybody. You're three. You don't know anybody. You know your mom pretty well. Everybody else is just some weird peripheral figure, but. So it's very strange. So he's being babysat. Like I said, at three. You don't even usually tell three year olds when somebody dies for a while because what's the point? They don't know what that is. They can't process that.

[C]

They don't understand. They don't have any reference of death.

[B]

Yeah, my great grandmother died when I was like four. And they all told me I had to go to the funeral, but We're Italian. Morbid death is a morbid fascination with these people. So.

[C]

Yeah, my great grandmother died when I was. Was three, I think.

[B]

Same time. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I. I don't. They didn't even tell me.

[B]

I mean, I had to go later on.

[C]

I mean, obviously she's dead. I don't. I've never seen her.

[B]

Hey, where's great grandpa? Well, I remember.

[C]

Do I have a great great grandma too? You do. Guess what?

[B]

I still remember them jumping in the casket. Oh, my. Screaming in Italian, jumping in the casket. It was wild. Me and my cousin were freaked out. We were both four and we were like, this is crazy. What is happening. So anyway, somehow he knows all about death, I guess. Apparently. And he's in the care of a babysitter now. The babysitter has some sons also. Okay. Who are older than three and they thought they would play a joke on the three year old, which playing a joke on a three year old is hide their fruit snacks for four minutes. That's a joke for a three year old. There's no. They don't have much of a sense of humor, three year olds, really.

[C]

I mean, you put them in a closet and hold the door shut or whatever.

[B]

Jesus. That's just mean. Is that what you're doing to three year olds? Jimmy?

[C]

What the fuck? That's what we did to three year olds.

[B]

Jesus.

[C]

Nieces and nephews and cousins. Yeah.

[B]

No, my aunt used to. My aunt, who by the way is the sweetest person alive, is so nice, used to torment me when I was a fucking kid. At three years old, she was making me and my cousin Jesse eat ant pants. Telling us the black ones were chocolate and the red ones were strawberry. That's nice having us, like tried to get us to eat dog food and just all sorts of mean shit.

[C]

My uncle would handcuff our right wrist. He was a cop?

[B]

Yeah, he's an adult.

[C]

What the fuck?

[B]

My aunt was like, she's like nine years older than me. She was a teenager, so it made more sense. She just wanted us to leave her alone. That makes sense.

[C]

Handcuff your right wrist to your left ankle. Behind your back.

[B]

Okay. That guy, I want in prison right now. Cause imagine what he does to suspects. Still.

[C]

Not anymore. He's long. He's like 70. Fuck.

[B]

Hopefully something will come up and we'll put that guy away. Cause he's done bad things to people. I guarantee it. If he thinks that's funny, that's awful. That's fucking terrible.

[C]

My family's trash.

[B]

Sorry. My aunt Lisa Will give you a huge pass. You were 14, you didn't know any better. You're fine. You were 13. You're good. This is crazy. We're trash. I don't know.

[C]

We're in sites, in hospitals. We're trash.

[B]

She tied my cousin Jesse up one time with bungee cords and shit and like bandanas and stuff. Yeah. And then I went and told my grandmother who was outside in her little garden. And I said, grandma, Grandma. She tied Jesse up. My grandmother yelled at me, said, what the hell you want me to do about my. You go figure it out yourself. And that was it. I was pushed away.

[C]

No, I didn't do it.

[B]

I was like, sorry, dude. I went back up there some. I was like, sorry. I told grandma she didn't have anything to do. And I just like went.

[C]

She was mad at me.

[B]

She got mad for bothering her. So anyway, the trick they play on this kid is to all of them, they smeared ketchup all over themselves, which sounds really sticky, sounds horny. And pretended to be dead.

[C]

Oh, for fuck's sake.

[B]

With blood all over him. So he walks in and sees his babysitter and her teenage sons lying on the floor covered in blood, covered in summer school diploma, pretending to be dead. Exactly. But a three year old. So that's the story. And apparently this is. He always brings it up as this really fucked him up good.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, come on.

[C]

How much ketchup?

[B]

How much did you have in the house to cover all of your. It had to be just a little bit on the face. But to a three year old, any amount. Blood is a lot. So in school he's basically a fat kid who gets picked on and then bullies people afterwards.

[C]

Yeah, that's the evolution.

[B]

It's his cycle. Yeah. If he ever gets big enough to fight to pick on other people, he's going to. So that's basically what he does here. There's no documented. There's no sexual abuse. His parents aren't alcoholics. There's none of that shit. The household incident, pretty stable. And that was with a babysitter that wasn't even that. CPS never got called or anything. It's one of those deals. His handwriting sucks. Okay? He's left handed. His handwriting sucks, which a lot of kids handwriting sucks. Mine was shitty too.

[C]

Mine was great for so long, really, I stopped doing it and started typing everything. See me right now? Holy fuck. So embarrassing.

[B]

Mine, I was always like trying to go 10 times faster than I could. So it was always like scribbly because I was always wanting to get out.

[C]

I just bought caps for a long time.

[B]

Oh, that's weird.

[C]

That's a weird thing to do. Yeah, that's.

[B]

Yeah. So. So the school decides to force him to write right handed now. Which is what they used to do in Catholic school in the 50s. They tried to get my mother to write right handed. She's left handed and went to Catholic school. And so they tried to get. Yeah, because that's evil. That's satanic if you're left handed.

[C]

Because it's the wrong side.

[B]

Exactly. So that's what they do now. I don't know if that's what these people were doing, but either way they were like. They forced him to write right handed. Basically. He got like Cs and Ds in school. Family and teachers. They say he's an average to above average iq. He's not dumb, he's not smart. He's just kind of there. He reads and writes and does all that. He's just fat and lazy and pissed off all the time. That's the crux of it. He saw a school psychologist at some point in here, which is good. That's a start. And didn't usually happen back then, but that's good. We don't know for how long or if it helped anything in his teen years. He gets more into his later teens. He gets into kind of fantasy stuff because he gets picked on a lot. That's what he does. So he gets into Dungeons and Dragons.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Which is the refuge for people who are looking for something to go to

[C]

when this reality sucks. I'll make my own.

[B]

And usually the Dungeons and Dragons kids are usually the really nice kids. They're usually really smart too.

[C]

Inclusive.

[B]

Anybody's allowed to play.

[C]

We need another anyway. All the time.

[B]

Yeah, they're very smart usually too. Sometimes a little nerdy, but smart. Usually you get the smart kids playing that. Dumb kids can't follow that. It's too complicated.

[C]

Yeah, you gotta have an open mind too. And dumb kids generally don't.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot to remember. There's a lot of things and rules. And this one's got this and it's eight points for that. Even the dice would be confusing for the die when you.

[C]

How many is a kid? 10? 12.

[B]

It's more than that. I can't remember. I used to buy them 20. 20 sided.

[C]

There's 20 sided ones.

[B]

I know that. Yeah. I used to get them for my daughter all the time. She played.

[C]

There's a bunch of different ones.

[B]

Too.

[C]

I think there's eight sided, obviously.

[B]

I'm sure I don't know what the standard, like, you know.

[C]

Oh, the standard thrower.

[B]

This is our D and D dice. Yeah, I don't know what that is. He also played Vampire the Masquerade.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Which is another game. That game I know nothing about. I had to look it up. It's apparently set in the, quote, world of Darkness where players portray vampires navigating political intrigue. Political intrigue.

[C]

The fuck?

[B]

We really gotta get Johnson elected in the. As the fucking.

[C]

This cabinet's bullshit.

[B]

This is great. We gotta get Johnson elected as the city's new alderman or else. Really, we're in a lot of trouble. So put on your fangs and let's get out there on the campaign trail. Political intrigue.

[C]

Knock some dogs.

[B]

Yeah. Personal hunger. Or personal horror and hunger in a gothic punk modern world created in 1991.

[C]

What a weird game.

[B]

Sounds weird. His favorite band is the Misfits, which if you went to high school in the 90s, you've seen 7,000,000,000, misfits shirts. You know, so that's pretty cool.

[C]

It's one of the cooler T shirts of all time.

[B]

That's Dave. For a band who didn't ever sell. Have a platinum album, they sold a fuckload of.

[C]

Fuckload of shirts.

[B]

Fuckload of shirts, man. And like every Spencer's and every mall in America had five Misfits shirts. And I mean, that people had those shirts.

[C]

It's probably just because the band name is fucking rad.

[B]

Well, they got that cool logo too, with the face.

[C]

They fucking nailed it.

[B]

It's pretty cool. They did a good job with that. So anyway, Bobby is kind of this kid. He's playing D and D. He's kind of doing things like that. He tells bullshit stories as like a lot of teenagers do.

[C]

Well, he's also in a land of make believe and he clearly hates reality. So he's gonna create his own reality.

[B]

And usually when people get picked on a lot too, they create these stories about how tough they are. And so he starts telling stories about getting in knife fights with people and stuff like that. He's a fat kid who plays D and D. He's not getting knife fights with anybody at this point in his life. In high school, there's a knife fight.

[C]

He's getting stabbed to death.

[B]

Yeah, he tells stories. Hopefully his fat layers will save him at this point. Stories about putting people in the hospital and being a badass. He likes telling all these stories about being a badass. No one believes him at all everyone's like, okay, Bobby's telling stories again. Whatever. Here he goes. He barely graduates high school, which is still better than I did. I didn't graduate. I got a ged. So, hey, good for you. You finished the class.

[C]

I barely graduated, so I get it.

[B]

There you go. At 18, he volunteers with the local fire department.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And by the way. And he has an incident that he and his sisters and mother talk about, but I don't know if it's documented anywhere else, where apparently he responded to a car accident scene, which that's what volunteer firefighters do, and he had to comfort a dying accident victim. So he was holding someone while they were covered in blood and dying. And he said that fucked them all up as much as the ketchup incident.

[C]

It'll be fine. Go to the light.

[B]

It's all back. Yeah. Now, this is 1991. He's 18. He starts to drink and do drugs too, at this point. And he's playing D and D and he's volunteer firefighting.

[C]

Gonna get himself kicked off that fire brigade?

[B]

Well, probably not. I don't know. I don't know. They probably need firemen around there. They probably don't care.

[C]

Volunteers, though. I think everybody has to be a volunteer. Right, Right.

[B]

In the community, if it's a volunteer force.

[C]

When it's a volunteer force, I think you have to volunteer.

[B]

Well, yeah, it's a volunteer force, but

[C]

I mean, I think in a small community, I think everybody's tasked with having to.

[B]

Yeah, that. No, no, no, you don't have to be a volunteer fireman. No one can force you to go to an accident scene and fucking clean up the debris. No one can force you to do that. No, you have to volunteer to be a fire.

[C]

That's about that, though.

[B]

I'm not paying for it. And then also having to volunteer, too. I pay for it. You know what I mean? Like, Right.

[C]

Small communities where they don't. Where they don't pay for it. Where they don't have one.

[B]

You have to volunteer still. You have no. I mean, beyond the force. Exactly. You have to. But you don't have to.

[C]

Be voluntold.

[B]

No. You know, voluntoling. No volunteering. Only volunteering. So there's also an accusation at this point that he raped a woman around now, around age 18. But that never really gets substantiated and we don't know what actually happened.

[C]

Accusation. But there's no charges.

[B]

No charges, Nothing like that. So he enlists in the Navy. He's doing a lot of nothing going on Here. And what he's also doing, it looks like, is looking for things to join, to be a part of. I'm going to be a part of the firefighters. That's a group now. They have to accept me. I'm gonna go in the Navy. We're all.

[C]

Yeah, it's a bunch of people that don't kick you out.

[B]

Exactly. And he's a big guy at this point too. He's six' one, he's £250, he's a big old guy. He gets sent to Guam and then he came home here. After a while, the Navy kicks him out. Dishonorable discharge. He ends up getting.

[C]

That's the way to get kicked out.

[B]

That'll do it. So that's about it. So he gets home from the Navy. Now he's been kicked out of the Navy. I mean, he wasn't there for five years or anything like that. He's home within two years and he starts telling stories again. He loves to tell stories about what a badass he is. Now he's telling everybody in the bars around Farmington that he's what, you know what he's going to say?

[C]

A war hero.

[B]

Navy seal. Navy Seal, babe. That's right.

[C]

Like a Navy whale.

[B]

I'm a Navy seal. Like he could make it through the training, number one. And he couldn't even make it through the basic program, never mind the BUDS training and all that. It's a whole separate thing. That's crazy. So now he would tell all this shit. The friends would always say that nobody believed him. They all were like. One friend called it his flights of fantasies. This is what he does. He tells stories. He's full of shit. He does all that. Now another friend of his, Larry Hudson, who knows Bobby pretty well, said that he liked to perform in public. Basically he'd tell stories everybody knew. He has a big knife collection and stuff like that. He tries to play Johnny Badass over here and so they all kind of just take his SEAL claims. Grain of salt. They all laugh at it when he leaves the room. They're like this fucking jerk off every time. That's who he is though. He just likes to be this big guy, big person. Now the knives he has, okay, he names his knives.

[C]

Uh huh. Like people names?

[B]

Yeah, if you name your knives.

[C]

That's bizarre.

[B]

I'm worried about you.

[C]

Other than this one, this is the big one.

[B]

This is the soup. This one's fucking sharp. I call this the fucking sharp one. Be careful with this one.

[C]

This one. Do not touch that plate. Even to rub it backward against the blade. Just don't touch it. So don't touch.

[B]

He had one that he called Baby Bubba the butcher knife.

[C]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

That's gonna go well. So interesting. He, he owned more than in his little collection. He had more than a dozen knives from, you know, kind of fancy little jack knives that are like ornate to a huge bowie knife with a big fucking blade. That's the one he called Bubba the butcher knife. Baby Bubba the butcher knife. That one. It's a bowie knife, a big Rambo knife. Wow. And he told all his friends because he'd carry that one a lot. And he told all his friends that, you know, Bubba's not made for cutting up animals. Bubba's made for cutting human flesh.

[C]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

I don't know what specific differences in the manufacturing process you'd have to put in to make it go from gutting a deer to gutting people, but it seems like. Like similar things probably.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't imagine sharp and metal.

[C]

Yeah. I can't imagine the density of either are that much different.

[B]

No. And unless it's a medical supply place, I don't know who's what manufacturers going. Now this lives, this knives for chopping up people. This is. Here's our hunting collection. Now we have our vivisection people collection that we're going to have here. That's going to be perfect.

[C]

Here's our feral water vermin section.

[B]

That's for those. So he would brag about how he'd use this to cut people open in bar fights and shit, all that shit. And all of his friends were like, sure, okay, no problem, Bobby, whatever. So he's back in Farmington now after the Navy, telling stories, talking about his knives, being a jerk off. We all know this jerk off. We all know the guy.

[C]

Far too old to be being this guy.

[B]

Yep. Got kicked out of the military and he's back at home and he tells stories. It's a giant 13 year old. It's pathetic. And you get a life, you know what I mean? We all know this guy, though. Every town has them. So he takes a bunch of shitty marginal jobs, he drives a car for a halfway house, Giving people rides to court, shit like that. People to and from their jobs. He worked as a security guard. Who the hell would hire this guy? He worked as a bouncer for a little while because he's a big guy. He worked construction, he did some oil field shit. All his very short time temp jobs till he gets something else.

[C]

Quick turnaround.

[B]

Quick turnaround. That's about that. So he likes to hang out in the 90s. He likes to hang out, go to the bars of Farmington.

[C]

Fantastic.

[B]

Loves it. There's bars on.

[C]

Is it plural? I didn't know it.

[B]

Oh, there's 46,000 people here now. There was like 30 something thousand back then. There's bars on Main street, there's bars on the highway. There's bars everywhere.

[C]

Everywhere, really.

[B]

All over the place. And he's gone to all of them? Oh yeah. One is called the Turnaround. He goes there a lot. It doesn't exist anymore. It's a hole. But it was a dive bar in the middle of nowhere. So he goes.

[C]

There is his working career.

[B]

Yeah, Turnaround. His naval career.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Also coffee shops that are open and late that they hang out at and you know, kind of a. Those are kind of like, like. Kind of like goth kid hangouts. Sure, the coffee shops. There's also a place called the Eclectic on North Allen Avenue, which is a block off Main Street. It is. It's a head shop, essentially. Sure, yeah. They have bongs and shit like that. And they have like swords and goofy shit that. Head shops have incense and crystals and it's kind of an all encompassing type of joint here. You've seen it. So. So anyway, posters and Bobby's hanging out there. He hangs out there a lot because also they sell shit for D and D and stuff like that. So he hangs out there and him and his friends will hang out there. Now he has. Also at this place is a glass display full of what are called ornate knives and swords. The shit you hang on the wall, you know the guy who has ornate swords in his wall, generally when you

[C]

buy them, they're unsharpened.

[B]

Exactly. They're for sharp. They're not sharpened.

[C]

You just have an unsharpened knife on the wall.

[B]

It's for show.

[C]

Katana blade, shit like that.

[B]

They give silly stuff for like the real ornate ones with like crazy stuff coming out of them and you know, something from. Looks like it's from a movie, shit like that. So they had samurai swords, they had regular swords, broad swords, like replicas, like, you know, Conan type style swords. Some had like the curvy blades that are just, you know, just for show. Some are actual like hunting knives with like turquoise handles and fancy shit.

[C]

Bone handles, Bowing handles.

[B]

Yeah, Collector pieces. Not anything that you'd go out and do anything with. So Bobby hangs out all the time. He comes in drunk, he talks too loud, tells everybody about how he was a Navy SEAL and how he's killed people and he gets in bar fights and all that shit. So they said that his friend Larry Hudson said basically his story's about his constant violent actions were so. Just so constant and insidious and just up his ass with it that they became. You didn't even hear him anymore. He said it was just.

[C]

They just shut him out.

[B]

They shut him out because it's another one of those stories again. Anything that comes up, he's like, oh, I knew a guy in that town, I killed him with Bubba. And they're like, okay, sure. So they just all laughed. He's the guy they all laugh at. When he leaves the room, they go, Jesus, I thought he'd never shut the fuck up.

[C]

Up.

[B]

So at this point, he's 6 foot 1, 6 foot 1, white dude, big, kind of a big stocky guy. He's been a construction worker, a security guard, halfway house driver, an oil field worker. He's been like in the Navy. Most of the jobs are the village people. He's done. He's been basically every village person besides the Indian. He's been every other.

[C]

He's an aimless nerd dork who changes his. His luck with whatever career he's got.

[B]

Usually. At least with nerds, they're smart and they do things like, he's the worst kind of nerd I've ever heard of. Fat, lazy nerd. And you know, he's a guy who names his knives, for Christ's sake. I mean, he's really a lack of

[C]

creativity on everything too.

[B]

Oh yeah. And he's in his 20s. Like there is almost growing up.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He's still stuck at 16.

[C]

If it's not pathetic and sad at this moment, it's about three months away from it.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, yeah, it's bad. He also has a dumb shit buddy of his that we'll talk about here. This is Harold Pollock. P O L L O C K. He goes by either Hal or the name I saw in a newspaper. That would be much cooler for him, Harley.

[C]

From Harold to Harley, if your name

[B]

is Harold, that is the least tough guy name that's ever been given. Harold is like an old joke where you hear some old lady calling her Harold. What are you doing in there? That's what that is. That's an old guy who maybe does your taxes. He's bald like Homer Simpson. Your name isn't Harley if you're Harold.

[C]

This guy sat around going, how dare you, mom, how am I gonna cool this up?

[B]

Harley Hall. Harley. I'll give you Hal. Now you just sound like an old man. That's fine. Sound like you're 100 years old, that's fine.

[C]

Hal's wild too. I didn't know that that was short for Harold. I would have gone with Harry.

[B]

Absolutely. Harry'd be the first one. But nobody wants to be Harry. Nobody wants to be a kid. So, Hal, I'll give you. I see an H, I see an A. I see an L in there. Great. You can be Harold if you want. You can't be Harley, though. That is not a nickname of Harold. It is absolutely not a nickname of Harley.

[C]

And also a nickname or a foreshort. Short is supposed to be at least less letters.

[B]

Same shit, same thing. Harley. Well, not really. James and Jimmy are the same fucking amount of letters too, I guess.

[C]

Yeah. And James is one syllable. Why do you guys make it harder by going with two syllables?

[B]

No idea. It's crazy. So here is, he's a couple years older than Bobby and he's also pretty dumb from what a lot of people say. All right, Pretty dumb. Now on September. I'm sorry, Sunday, November 24, 1996. Yeah, okay. This is four days before Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving week. It's a Sunday. So we have Bobby hanging out with old Harley Pollock there. Jesus Christ. So stupid. He's hanging out down by the mall, the Animas Valley Mall, I guess here. So I guess he runs into old Harold there. And Harold's already there doing something. Bobby starts drinking some beers. Everybody said that he'd drink five beers to year one. Bobby Harley would. No, Bobby would down in shit. He hammers beer, hammers beers, pounds them, and then drinks a lot. Then he gets drunk real quick. And then he becomes real boisterous and agitated and tells you about how all the people he stabbed. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about our SafeST sponsor, SimpliSafe.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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go to RO Co Safety now. Hal Pollock said that night he said, quote we all partied and kicked back. I'm not sure how much I drank, but I wasn't sober. Bobby at one Point. Offered to find a prostitute and bring her back to the apartment. Is there at some apartment near the mall? Yeah. Okay. That's some offer now. Gee, thanks. You're gonna bring a stranger into my house that you picked up off the street and paid money for sex work? Well, calm down.

[C]

I'm gonna give her money.

[B]

Please. Yeah.

[C]

Don't be so judgmental.

[B]

Use my bed. Wait. Let me put some of my valuables out first. Let me make sure to lay them out so she doesn't feel uncomfortable. Thanks a lot. So Hal said he wasn't particularly into that. Not into that idea.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And he knew it was trouble.

[C]

What a gift. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks a lot. He knew it was trouble, too. He just said him and, you know, fucking Bobby and this and that, it's too much. It's too much. But he said he went along anyway because basically he was more sober than Bobby. And Bobby told him, you're driving, so let's go. Okay. So Bobby's so fucked up, he can barely walk straight. They said he's trashed.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So they get into Bobby Fry's blue Ford Aspire.

[C]

Fantastic. It's Bobby's.

[B]

Yep. And hit the streets of Farmington looking for some ladies of the evening. Here. Okay.

[C]

Six foot, one, healthily overweight man. Jams it into an Aspire in the

[B]

passenger side, too, on this one. But everybody says that that's a funny sight. Watching Bobby stuff himself into the Aspire.

[C]

I believe every word of it.

[B]

Absolutely. So they're driving. They're not finding any ladies out at this point. And they pass the eclectic. The store they both hang out at here. And it's one of their favorite hangouts. They're always there doing whatever. So Bobby saw lights on in the store and told Pollock to stop the car. He said, I need to take a piss. And this is the only place that's open that I can go in there and they'll let me piss. Hit the brakes, let me go piss. So now, normally, he would have just pissed in an alley. But apparently the fact that this place was open and he could piss in a bathroom made it better because it was a cold night. So he knew that the people in the store that were in there would let him in because they knew him, even if it's locked up. There's a guy named Joseph Fleming who's 24 years old and he technically, I guess, works there. He's a security guard for a company that patrols the mall area and did security work at local events. He's not really working Security that night, I don't think. I think he's just hanging out playing video games at the Eclectic. At the eclectic. Then there's 18 year old Matt Trek. T R E C K E R.

[C]

Just a lot of dudes.

[B]

It's just a couple of dudes hanging out in the back of the store. Yeah. And Trekker's asleep in one of the back rooms. And this is all of this group. They've all spent the night at the Eclectic. From time to time falling asleep in one of the back rooms. Nobody cares. So Fleming here again, I believe it's Joseph Aaron Fleming. He's 24 and a security guard and he's hanging out. He's a former US army soldier, sergeant first class, honorable discharge, didn't get kicked out, probably doesn't tell crazy stories. And Matt Trekker, Matthew, he's an 18 year old kid who likes hanging out in the store. He likes role playing books and all that kind of shit. He's into that. So everybody is very loose about this. The manager even is loose about the whole thing. And he basically doesn't mind if a bunch of 19 to 23 year olds hang out out in the store at all times. Basically. There's nothing they can hurt is the way he looks at it.

[C]

As long as they don't steal anything. I guess there isn't really much to steal, right?

[B]

Yeah, I mean there's swords and books and things. There's plenty to steal.

[C]

It'd be obvious if they took something though, right?

[B]

That's the thing. And it's also this place is this is a small town in northwestern New Mexico. So there's not a lot of weird shit. So anybody who is into anything kind of cool or weird or off the beaten path, this is where they all hang out and get gather because this is the only place to do that. So Bobby pounds on the front door here, says, let me in, let me in. And Fleming lets him inside. So, okay, here we go. Joe Fleming says, come on in. Talks with them for a little while, then goes back to his computer game. Now Fry uses the bathroom, Bobby does. And then he and Pollock end up in the main showroom looking at everything. Yeah, Bobby is looking at the display case containing all the knives and swords. That's what he's into. So you know, that's his thing. So he tells, you know, he's telling, hey, look at the knives. They're pretty cool. And Pollock's like, yeah, whatever, I don't care. The display case was unlocked.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

So Pollock watches. Pollock watches Bobby pick Up and admire some of the knives. Look at this one. Put it back. Look at this one. So while they're in there, Joseph Fleming did. He was playing his computer game and didn't watch these guys. They were friends and everybody hung out here and who cares, basically. And also Fry was working as a security guard at the same time. So it's like we're both security guards. It's fine. Even though neither of us work here. No big deal.

[C]

Yeah, okay. It's very odd.

[B]

Yeah. Now he's shitface, like we said. Bobby, right? He turns to his buddy here, to Pollock, and says, I'm gonna steal something.

[C]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Some of the knives. Now, Hal said he didn't think it was a great idea, but he didn't say shit because Bobby is 100, weighs 100 pounds more than him, and is shit faced, and he doesn't have any interest in it. So he knew that, you know, Bobby can get into shit and be. You don't want to talk him out of it, especially when he's drinking and when he doesn't get his way, he gets pissed off. So he said he reluctantly helped Bobby gather up several. Lot of knives. And they're expensive, these knives.

[C]

What?

[B]

Several thousand dollars worth of expensive knives.

[C]

Why is he doing this?

[B]

Because he told him he's doing it. And they let themselves out of the store without telling Fleming even that they were leaving. They just took off. He basically took about a dozen knives. There's a samurai sword in there.

[C]

What the fuck?

[B]

All sorts of shit. Now, we don't know exactly because there's no security footage in there or anything like that. And basically there's not a lot of inventory tracking in the head shop's glass knives section, glass display case of knives section. It's pretty loosey goosey with how they do the books here. So the two of them leave, they drive out into the desert north of Farmington to a place called. What they call it, I guess the locals call it Chokecherry Canyon, where they bury all the knives and swords.

[C]

Bury them. Put that metal.

[B]

Why steal them right in the ground. Why steal them if you're gonna drive direct? It's not even like they played with them for a while. Then a week later, they drove right to the desert to bury them. What's the point now? You're digging a hole in the middle of the night. This is a. You've made our night way worse by doing this.

[C]

Right. You're digging a hole in the middle of the night and putting metal in the ground where it can Be destroyed immediately.

[B]

Rust. The moisture from the ground will kill it right off.

[A]

The.

[C]

This is stupid.

[B]

It's very stupid. It's very dumb. But it worked. Nobody noticed the knives were missing right away. Right away, yeah, because there's a bunch of them in there. And he didn't take all of them, he just took some of them, which is very interesting. The problem is I don't get what he's going to do with these things.

[C]

What's the end game?

[B]

You can't hock them.

[C]

No.

[B]

They're going to say where'd you get these? And they have to tell them you can't do anything with them. So it just doesn't make any sense that he would do that. It's very strange now I guess later on. And this is from a book that we'll give you the title of later. Harley Pollock said the knife display case was like a magnet for Bobby. He had absolutely been obsessed about these knives for years. This is his thing here.

[C]

These particular knives he's loved for a

[B]

long time staring at him in that case for years. Years. November 28, 1996. Yeah, I don't think they sell a lot. Those knives are mainly like for like decoration, vibe type shit. Like they probably sell one a year of those things. They're not selling that a lot. It's kids coming in to get 20 sided die and the like. That's what's going on.

[C]

When somebody says I want to buy that knife, they go, really?

[B]

Yeah, they go, okay, I guess. I mean so yeah, we don't even know how many years they've been sitting there. Yeah, it's not like every day they go through the invite and they're like samurai sword, check. That's still there. This one there.

[C]

They accept the price tag to be reminded what it costs.

[B]

Yeah, they don't even know. So that week, November 28, 1996, that is Thursday night, Thanksgiving night.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Now Thanksgiving night they're in the apartment again near the Animas Valley Mall. Small group of kids gathered for a post Thanksgiving party. Which young people. I remember doing that when I was young all the time after your family stuff. Then you all get together, everybody goes to like a diner, you go to a bar depending on your. So they're all hanging out, drinking beer, doing a little bit of drugs here and there, you know, nothing crazy. Loud music, just a party with a bunch of kids, 20 year olds, 22 year olds. Bobby's there, Harold Pollock is there and about a dozen other people ranging from 19 to 25. Somewhere in there the Misfits are bumping over the system there.

[C]

Let them have it.

[B]

They're drinking like crazy. Little bit of drugs, but it's mainly a beer party. That's what's going on here. Listening to music, doing their thing. Bobby, you know, is loving this because he gets to drink. He loves the Misfits. Everything's. This is all things he loves. He's drinking, he's loud, he's storytelling. As usual, everyone's trying to ignore him. They said basically he was getting crazy over the course of this night. Like telling a lot of stories, really getting in people's faces, really gassing himself up, really. Just kind of getting in people's personal space and shit. Just a little too aggressive tonight. Basically, he's wearing work boots, a black Misfits T shirt, and also he has a knife on him as well. At some point, Bobby decides that, you know what? This is boring. He said, let's make this. And he said, let's make this a Thanksgiving to remember everybody, buddy.

[C]

Let's never forget Thanksgiving.

[B]

And they said, sure. How do we do that?

[C]

Well, we gotta make it memorable. We gotta have an event.

[B]

Is it Grandma's last Thanksgiving? Maybe?

[C]

It's possible.

[B]

The way we will fix this is let's go get a prostitute. That'll do it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's his solution to everything. Let's just go get a woman off the street and pay her and then we can all. So anyway, that's what he said.

[C]

We're gonna also share one.

[B]

Well, mostly everybody kind of ignored him, like, yeah, okay, whatever. That's his plan, though. No, let's just go get a lady. Or we'll pass her around like it's some weird bachelor party from hell. I don't know what's going on.

[C]

Let's all go get different ones.

[B]

Nope, Just one. That's it. So Bobby said, no, we're going. Yeah. Everybody.

[C]

I'd never forget that Thanksgiving, James, if you and I pooled our money and

[B]

got a prostitute, it would be very memorable because that would be an odd thing. Exactly. So he needs someone else to drive.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And he again, knows that Harold's the guy who will do that. So he said, harold, Harley. Harley, in the car, my friend. Let's go. You're driving. And he says, fuck. Okay, let's do it. So he says, not enthused again, doesn't want to really do this. But he knew that if he told him no, the shit would get worse. So they leave the party sometime after 11pm and get into Pollock's car. Now, not the Aspire. Different car. They drive around downtown Farmington looking for a woman out plying her wares.

[C]

The trope of a lady walking.

[B]

I don't know how much street walker action goes on in a town with 33,000 people at the time. You don't see that a lot in small towns. Just the ladies out walking.

[C]

There might only be one. One.

[B]

Just one. That's her. We know her. They call her Downtown Debbie. And everybody knows her. That's what it would be, though. So they're looking and they don't find anybody. It's Thanksgiving night. And family. Yeah, there's nothing even else open. It's Thanksgiving, so everything's closed.

[C]

Ties even close on Thanksgiving, James?

[B]

Yeah, everything's closed, so they're going. They find that after midnight. So they drive around for almost an hour in a small town, and then they find the eclectic. The lights are on inside again. Okay, okay. So this is just after midnight. So Thursday into Friday morning. Joseph Fleming is still there. Okay, he's still there. 24 or 25 years old, I believe. 25. But some sources say 24, doesn't matter. He's working. He's there. He works there. Apparently that's. He's hanging out overnight, I guess, because the place isn't open. It's locked.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But he's there all night. I don't know what the deal is. So anyway, he goes to the. He's in there. So he's at the front and, you know, hanging out, looking at computer shit. Now, Matthew Trekker. Remember the guy from last time? Asleep, he's still there. He's in the back of the store, and he's basically hanging out. And guess what? He is asleep in the back.

[C]

I can.

[B]

Yeah, this kid needs an apartment, for Christ's sake. So he's 18. He's asleep after Thanksgiving, just doing his thing. So Bobby walks in and Pollock walks in behind him. The door is open. The bell on the door rings. They go in there. They all know each other and everything like that. They play video games with Bobby in the store and everything like that. So everybody knows him. Now, what happens next comes from Polly. And there's two versions of it all. Harley here. Now, Pollock says he went to the bathroom. Now, what he says is when he came out of the bathroom, he saw something and he didn't know what was. He was like confused by the whole thing. He said, I saw Bobby on top of Joe, wrestling with him. Bobby had his hands around Joe's throat. Then he stood up and stepped on Joe's throat. Throat. He was wearing work boots. He was acting scared. Joe had a lot of blood around him and he wasn't moving. I saw Bobby wiping blood from his hands and arms.

[C]

Oh, boy.

[B]

This guy escalated fast. So that's how it goes. Now, that is the first version he gives. He also gives another one where he is more of a participant and less of a shocked guy who just came out of the fucking bathroom.

[C]

A guy who just stumbled upon an assault.

[B]

That's basically what it is. Now, he says that Matthew Trekker came out of the back room and saw Joe on the floor and saw it was happening. And he was looking like, what the fuck? And then Bobby sucker punched him. He never saw it coming. He just got him from the side, never saw it coming. Knocked him down and unconscious. So at which point, now Pollock says that Bobby Fry reaches into his pocket, pulls out a knife. Knife. And cuts Joe Fleming's throat with a knife.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. And then later on, the medical examiner will say it's blunt force injury consistent with a heavy boot crushing the windpipe and throat slit.

[C]

Fuck.

[B]

A painful, shitty death is what this is. So then he. He turns to Matthew Trekker, goes over. He's on the ground unconscious. He pulls up Matt's shirt, hurt. And starts stabbing him in the chest multiple times. Just brutalizing this kid. This poor kid. He's 18 years old, for Christ's sake. And then he handed Pollock the knife and he said, we can do this. We can be each other's alibi. Huh? Foolproof. I'll say you were with me over here. You'll say I was with you. And then we're golden.

[C]

Crisscross. What the fuck does that mean?

[B]

Nothing. He's a moron.

[C]

You just killed two people. I didn't.

[B]

But that's okay. Anytime you kill people, as long as you do it with another person, it's foolproof. Cause you can just both say you were somewhere else without. They can't possibly crack that story. It's over.

[C]

We can be each other's. No. Bitch. What are you talking about?

[B]

What are you talking about?

[C]

I don't need one.

[B]

But he's handing him the knife, saying, stab him too. And we're each other's alibis. Let's do this together.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

So Pollock says he stabbed Matt Trekker three or four times with the knife. Then Bobby walked over to the display case, took out two more swords. This is gonna get worse, Jimmy. Why? One was a big, wavy bladed sword. The other one was like a samurai sword.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So Bobby handed. Jesus Christ. Bobby hands Harley the samurai sword and says, quote, let's cut his head off. Oh, hey, what about that prostitute? I feel like if we don't get out there, we're really never gonna find a lady like anything to get him out of here. Yeah. Hungry? What the fuck?

[C]

I thought we were going in halfsies on pussy, man.

[B]

Yeah, I thought we were going. I thought it was on you tonight. What's going on? I was excited. So, anyway, he said, let's cut his head off. So Pollock said basically, that he and Bobby tried to behead Matthew with swords.

[C]

Oh, my. And these are not unsharpened.

[B]

That's the problem. These are display swords. These are not sharpened swords. So he said that he. Pollock said he reluctantly took the sword and stared down at Matt. He said he always liked Matt, but what's he supposed to do? He's got a giant psychopath who just killed two people, has a sword next to him. There's no way out of this. This is according to politics. Pollock. I'm not saying it's true. So he said, if I don't do this, I'm sure Bobby's going to kill me. So Pollock said he was shaking and nearly crying at this point. He said he bent down and placed what would be the sharp edge of the sword, not the backside, against Trekker's throat. Then began to, like, saw at it.

[C]

Christ.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

With, like, a spoon for Jesus.

[B]

It's horrifying. A butter knife, essentially. And he couldn't get through it. And they were trying to cut his head off. They couldn't get it. Pollock later said to the cops, quote, it was hard. It was like chopping wood.

[C]

Way worse.

[B]

Disgusting.

[C]

With a sock.

[B]

This is crazy. So they couldn't chop through his neck. They never got through his neck. His head ultimately stayed on his body. And he died from stab wounds instead.

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

So now what the fuck do they do? They realize, oh, shit, we're inside of a locked store.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The store is locked in. They locked us on the way in. They locked the door, which has a key. But they didn't know what to do. Now, there's a couple different versions. Pollock said they broke the key off in the lock on the way in or way out. They're not sure which one. But the key was broken off in the lock. Lock. And the back door has an alarm on it. And they don't know the alarm code. So they're trapped in the store now, two dead bodies that they've killed. And there's no way to get the fuck out of Here. So eventually they got out. Now, we're not sure how they got out. They think they possibly damaged another door that didn't have an alarm on it and got out that way. Whatever it was, they ended up getting out. But it took a while. While. Okay, so they drove away. Where do you go now? Well, back to Chokecherry Canyon. That's our hideout spot. Apparently where they had buried the original swords and knives. They try to clean up and figure out what the fuck they're gonna do now. Pollock said Bobby was excited. He said he was energized. That's the exact words he used here. He said he'd finally done the things he was telling stories about. About. So he was into it, basically. Pollock said he was sick. He was just sick. He said he couldn't believe what he did. He couldn't eat, he couldn't sleep. Horrible.

[C]

Yeah. This is disgusting.

[B]

Yeah, that's. Maybe don't hang out with this asshole. So normal reaction, he said they agreed to never speak of it again. Okay, this is going on in the vault here. Now, the next morning, the day after Thanksgiving is a big shopping day.

[C]

Day. Especially at the head shop.

[B]

Yeah, even at the head shop, it's a big shopping day. So that day they opened, November 29th on Friday morning. And a regular came to the door. They come all the time, and it's locked at a time it should be open. So they're like, what the fuck? Looking, trying to open. It won't open. So they looked through the window and saw a foot on the floor between the counter and the back hallway. That's all they could see was a foot sticking out from behind the counter. Counter. Obviously a bad sign. So he called the police department. Cops came, they had to force their way inside. And they found the scene. I mean, it was not what they expected. Joseph Fleming had injuries consistent with Pollock's account. Blood force trauma to the throat consistent with heavy boot crushing the. Damn it. Larynx. It's so hard to say. I want the larynx. Larynx. The N is at the right before the X. Y, N, X, yeah. Larynx. But you really want to be before larynx. Larynx. You want it to be like two N's, but it doesn't matter.

[C]

Yeah, I've always heard it. Larynx.

[B]

That's how everybody on earth says it. Except for if I say it like that, I get 7,000 people fucking messaging me, telling me I said larynx wrong. I'm like, I don't care. Am I a fucking Doctor. Do I look like I know much about anatomy? I'm a fucking doctor.

[C]

Yeah. We have to tell people all the time that we're not doctors.

[B]

The amount of people I have to tell I'm not a doctor or a scientist or a medical examiner or a lawyer is incredible to me. But, you know, it's wild.

[C]

You see people on these 48 hours, they all say larynx.

[B]

That's how everybody says they all do it.

[C]

Why?

[B]

If you say larynx, it's hard to say. Because. It's just hard to say it the other way. It's harder.

[C]

Yeah, I guess. But larynx just. It makes more sense.

[B]

Doesn't sounds. I don't know. They both. Now they all sound the same in my head. They're all pushed out. I don't even know which one's right anymore. It's such a disaster.

[C]

But I've seen so many. I've heard people on TV say larynx so many times.

[B]

Yeah, that's how it comes out.

[C]

It feels like that's the right way to say it.

[B]

It does.

[C]

I also know it's blood spattering, not blood splatter.

[B]

Splatter. Exactly. Exactly.

[C]

It's fucking gross.

[B]

You hear all the time, too. But, yeah, we're not doctors, lawyers, cops, medical examiners, scientists of any stripe, creed or type. We're just not that. And it's fun. And you get a pass on this shit. That's the other thing.

[C]

Do I fuck?

[B]

Yeah. You could say the wrongest shit in the world, and everyone's like, oh, that's nice. Because they think you're dumb and you're not. Jimmy's not dumb, by the way.

[C]

I'm pretty dumb.

[B]

You play a dumb guy on tv. You're not.

[C]

I'm pretty dumb. I mean, I don't know a lot. What I don't know is fucking that.

[B]

Oh, it's staggering. But you've put yourself in a sweet spot where you can be as wrong as can be. And people go, ah, what the hell does Jimmy know? It's fine. They act like, I think I know. I don't know anything. I'm just as fucking dumb. But you guys act like I know shit and like you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know either. I'm just trying my best here. I don't have anything to do.

[C]

I did somehow jockey myself into the sweetest spot in any business on the planet,

[B]

according to every comedian that sees our show. Yes. How many times have you been told, if anything Happens to you. Yeah, I'm taking that spot. How many comedians have told you, make

[C]

sure James calls me.

[B]

It's fucking hilarious. I have been told that by people who were dead serious.

[C]

If anything happens, I'm the luckiest son bitch on the planet.

[B]

I'm in that spot. No, but it's a. You get to. They. Yeah, they're like, oh, Jimmy's just, you know, he doesn't know. And it's like, no, he knows just as much as me. Don't hold. I'm not saying hold him responsible. I'm saying hold neither of us responsible.

[C]

That's my point. We're dumb. It's okay.

[B]

Let us be two dumb comics. That's all. Yeah. Oh, man.

[C]

So his larynx is crushed.

[B]

So his larynx is crushed. Anyway. So, yeah, that's how that goes. Crushed larynx, all that type of shit. Also a deep, single drawing style cut across the throat consistent with a bowie knife slitting someone's throat. Like Rambo.

[C]

One motion. Yeah.

[B]

One shot. Yep. Defensive wounds on the hands are consistent with a brief struggle. No other significant trauma to the rest of the body. Died of asphyxiation and exsanguination. So choking and bleeding. Order of injuries was throat cut or throat crushed, then. Throat cut. He was likely conscious for the throat crush and unconscious or dead by the time the knife came out.

[C]

Oh, my.

[B]

He's conscious for that now. Matthew Trekker. This poor kid had bruising to the face and scalp consistent with a sucker punch to the head. So we got that. Multiple stab wounds to the chest and torso consistent with a single edged blade of about 4 to 5 inches in length. Partial chopping injuries to the neck consistent with multiple impacts of a moderately blunt edge. Like, you know, a sword that's only for decoration. Yeah. Also, so the cause of death is stab wounds to the chest. The chopping injuries were postmortem, and he wasn't alive when the sword came down, so that's good. Both bodies are in a big pool of their own blood. They're both cold. It's been a while since this happened. The store has been ransacked. The knife display is now empty or almost empty. All the swords are gone. The drawers are open. Looks like a robbery, but nothing else of any monetary value seems to have been taken other than the swords and knives. And they said the cash register was either untouched or they didn't take all of it that was in there. If they took a few bucks and nobody noticed it. But that's it. Otherwise they didn't like Empty the shit at all.

[C]

They treated it like their mother's purse. You take a 20 and she won't notice.

[B]

Hopefully she won't notice. Yeah, it's just got paid. So they said the motive looked like a robbery of decorative weapons that got into obvious bad territory. So the bodies were arranged in the store in a way that suggested that the killers had moved them probably out of the view of the window is what it was. Because they only saw a foot sticking out out of this whole scene. They just didn't notice that foot would be visible probably so enough that the original positions were preserved, though you could tell where they went down. Though Pollock said later on that they tried to cover up being there before realizing they couldn't get out of the store. Basically they wiped down the surfaces and did all that kind of shit to try to get rid of fingerprints or anything like that. They do find a size 10 and a half bloody footprint on the linoleum near the bodies. That's the main thing. That's the only real piece of physical evidence they have of a killer is.

[C]

That's a problem though.

[B]

That's a problem. That's a big problem. So Matt Trekker's mom, Christina, and we're going to hear from her multiple times over the course of this here. She told investigators later that that mortal morning before the bodies had been discovered, she didn't know her son was dead yet. No idea they were somewhere in Farmington. She was. Bobby Fry bumped into her and walked up to her and made small talk with her, knowing whose mother she was,

[C]

knowing what he did to her son.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Obviously seeing if they've discovered it yet. That's probably what he was doing. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's just having. How you doing? Oh, fine. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, I guess your son's not dead yet.

[C]

Tell that boy of yours I said hello. I will.

[B]

She said it was a casual conversation, just chit chatting to a guy she met. So this investigation basically goes nowhere. There's a 10 and a half shoe print in the blood. That's it. No fingerprints, nothing of that nature. The store's kind of ransacked. Swords and knives are gone. Two dead people. It just looks like somebody is attacking. Now Bobby was on a list of persons of interest because he's a regular at the store and a knife collector. So anybody who was a regular at the store they talked to first. And people, his own friends have heard him talk about different murders and even that murder he has told his friends that he did this What? Now they think he's full of shit. They think he read about a murder in the newspaper and I'm the tough guy. But his friends. Yeah, his friends told the cops. And the cops talked to Bobby. And he was like, no, I was just talking shit. I'm telling him. Yeah, ask him a hundred other things I said I did that aren't true. And they talked to Pollock. And Pollock said I wasn't anywhere near the Eclectic that night. Blah, blah, blah. We were out looking for a chick, and that was that. There were other suspects. The other people that hang out at the Eclectic that all, you know, had their own. Everybody had about the same amount of motivation here. Not much.

[C]

And culpability, I guess, too. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So they didn't. These are all weirdos. Exactly. And they were looking. It's one of those weirdos that hangs out at the store. And they just didn't really pay that much attention to it. So that's it. Basically, the whole thing goes cold very quickly. He would be telling people and bragging at parties and telling anybody that. Anybody that he could tell that I'm a Navy SEAL and I killed those people at the Eclectic and I killed all these other people. Tells everybody he wants to tell. Nobody believes him. So it's referred to as the headshot murders in the local press. And basically, by the middle of 97, it's a cold case. And it's in a file in a drawer, and that's that.

[C]

Stop naming them after where it happened. Yes, the yogurt shop ones were cold case forever, too.

[B]

Forever. That's what happens.

[C]

Don't name it that.

[B]

Please don't. November 1997. There's a young man who's 18 named Travis Killen. K, I L L E N Killen. Wow. He's Killen. He should have been a comic. But he's a friend of Bobby Fry's. And he disappears, never to be found again.

[C]

Killen disappeared.

[B]

Killen is gone. We don't know what happened to him. But he's a friend of Bobby's and he disappears. So in my head, had. That's suspicious. March 31, 1998. Bobby has a new pal now.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Pollock has tried to edge himself away from him. Yeah, he doesn't really want to be friends with him. He seemed to actually be freaked out by what happened.

[C]

He's just busy today.

[B]

Yeah, just a little bit. No, I'm still busy, Bobby. Real busy. I got five jobs now. This guy's just getting all these jobs just so Bobby will leave him alone. He's working at McDonald's doing double shifts. He doesn't care.

[C]

It's two hours a day. This guy.

[B]

Guy doesn't matter. Got away from that guy. March 31, 1998. Here. So this is his new pal, Leslie Eng. E, N, G, H. Like we said, He's 22 years old. Sometimes in some accounts he's called Lester Eng, but it's leslie now. Between 96 and 98. Somewhere in here, he made friends with Bobby. Okay. He lives in Kirtland, with a. Kirtland, which is outside Farming. Born and raised in Farmington, though. Not really. Didn't fit in with the clean cut crowd always. He's a trench coat kid.

[C]

They got a clean cut crowd in Farmington.

[B]

The jocks. Yeah, they got the jocks and they got the nerds and they got. Yeah, yeah, they got those.

[C]

Every team's got a quarterback.

[B]

Yeah, it's baseball town, usa. Remember, Jimmy? So, you know. Yeah, everybody's got a quarterback no matter what. But he is. And think about when this is. This was the late 90s, so. So he is pre Columbine. Trench coat kid, though. And we all knew the trench coat kid. Go back to the. I believe it's episode 214 of this show possibly, which is the one from Fishgill, New York. Find out about the kids I called Hitler and the A team in high school who ended up murdering a family. They were all trench coat kids. Not that there's anything wrong with a trench coat, but I'm just saying there's a certain.

[C]

And in the late 90s, there was 10 kids at every school that were the trench coat kids.

[B]

They were. And they're a certain type because they weren't just like the. They weren't goth kids, really. They were kind of without a group. But all the kids that wore trench coats were like, into, like, weaponry shit. They were all like weird paramilitary types. Yeah, knives. And they were like talking about guns and shit. I remember Hitler and the A team. That's why I called them that.

[C]

The 10 at my school also were into hackers, that movie. And they all rollerbladed everywhere to.

[B]

Oh, Jesus. That's proud.

[C]

10 kids in trench coats on rollerblades.

[B]

That sounds like something made up for a teen movie, doesn't it? The kids in my school would never even go near rollerblades. I don't think they all gave each

[C]

other nicknames and shit too.

[B]

Oh, God, no. These kids never had time to. Because I gave them nicknames. If they were gonna murder people, I would have been the first fucking one Cause they would try to pick on people and try to intimidate people. And I'll like fuck all three of you little fucking bitches. You know what I mean? You're a Hitler in the A team. No.

[C]

I recently found out that a few of the kids have formed a band in their. We're in our fucking 40s and they play like the Lakes around town.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[C]

At the Marina.

[B]

No, what are they forming? They're 40. What are they doing? They're 45 years old.

[C]

I don't know what they're playing. I don't know what the fuck they're thinking. Yeah, what are you gonna do?

[B]

Yeah, you're 45. Unless you've, you know.

[C]

Stop it.

[B]

You can reconstitute the band, but you can't form one.

[C]

I think they're just. I think they're just the lake trash just having a good time just being lake trash. You know what I mean?

[B]

Interesting. Well, anyway, Leslie wears a trench coat. He reads philosophy books all the time. No, he got kicked out of Farmington High School for behavioral problems. He's like a Heath Ledger character or some bullshit. That's kind of what he is. He went to the local alternative school and got his high school diploma because he's pretty smart. And if you go to the alternative school, you can get by pretty easy in that respect.

[C]

You can do a year's worth of school in two weeks.

[B]

Yeah. He basically didn't really have to try to graduate from here. That's how it is. Yeah. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to bank. Bank with Chime.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

Stretch it as far as it can go.

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[A]

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[C]

Now back to the show.

[B]

So after high school, he moved in with his friends, got a job checking natural gas lines and then would just do drugs and party in the off time. Yeah, just like a guy from a small town in the middle of New Mexico. So everybody. A lot of people work in the natural gas industry up there. He reads philosophy, he writes poetry. Reads philosophy, reads philosophy books, writes poetry. He's a very quiet kid at one point. This is funny. This is from a Forensic Files episode. And other people have said this too. People describe him as looking like a baby chicken, which is not accomplished.

[C]

What the fuck?

[B]

I've seen his picture. I see it. He's kind of fuzzy, big eyes. He's kind of fuzzy headed. He's a baby chicken is the best way to put it.

[C]

With real big black eyes.

[B]

Yeah. He tells you the sky is falling all the time. It's real weird. Baby Chicken. You know how it goes.

[C]

It's a specific look.

[B]

Very specific. So Leslie and Bobby are now a new item. They hang out.

[C]

Baby Chicken and Baby Hunter.

[B]

Yep. The two of them together, the babies are chilling. So this night they head out to a bar. Okay. This is March 31, 1998. They head out to the Turnaround Bar. Yeah, Turnaround is. It's kind of. It's on the way out toward the reservation. Sure. And basically this night they meet a guy named Donald Tsosi. TSO T S O S I E. Yeah, that's Josie tosi. He's a 40 year old man. He's from originally Ganado, Arizona, which I've never heard of, have you?

[C]

Ganado.

[B]

Ganado. I think it's on the reserve. He's a Navajo and he's from. I think he's from the res. So that would make sense why we've never heard of it. Not a lot of.

[C]

Is there an apostrophe in there somewhere?

[B]

No, no apostrophe. No. But he came to Farmington this night to sell plasma.

[C]

Oh my. He's really down.

[B]

It's down. And the plasma pays like 30 bucks a pop over here.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's nothing. But if you have nothing, that's something. 30 bucks.

[C]

Do you remember our buddy Teddy used to do that like as frequently as they'd let you do it.

[B]

He's a comedian though. That I understood. That's a terrible lifestyle you're living. You should see what he was eating. Forget about it. Nobody would want his plasma.

[C]

Sell his plasma.

[B]

I know a lot of comics that sold plasma and blood and anything they could sell. Fuck, yeah. Jesus, that's terrible. When you see a guy on stage, they might have sold plasma. To be able to keep doing it.

[C]

They might have biological something.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. That's scary. So that's what he did. He came to Farmington to sell plasma. And apparently these plasma centers are a big thing around these areas. That is where people get some money once in a while. Booming a lot of poverty around here. And they pay cash out the door. So that's it. So Donald is 40 or 41 years old. We're not sure. Basically. Leslie Ng and another person both say that Bobby focused in on Donald Tosi because, quote, he looked like he had money. How much money could he look like he had?

[C]

Good for him to figure out how to look like that.

[B]

He blew into town to get $30 for plasma. Like, what do you think? He looks rich as shit now, by the way, this is a thing and we have to talk about it. In the 70s and 80s this was formally investigated. A big deal. There was a big local activity apparently among the white teenagers and early 20s kids called, quote, Indian Rolling.

[C]

What?

[B]

This is where a bunch of white kids would drive into town and find a drunken, a drunk person, a drunk native and beat them up and rob them, basically.

[C]

That's fucked up.

[B]

It's fucking ridiculous. It's shitty to do that to anybody. Whatever they're. Any people do that to homeless guys sometimes. What are you grossing? Gross. What the fuck is wrong with you people? Someone who could fight back at least. So this was a big deal. It's well documented. There was murders in the 70s over this. Why would I say that was terrible?

[C]

Somebody could fight back at least.

[B]

Well, yeah, at least someone who's drunk and ready to be pushed over. If you want to fuck with someone, fuck with someone. Go find some biker who's on his first beer. Yeah, go find some biker who's on his first beer and try to roll him. You know what I mean?

[C]

Find a guy with no, no shirt, with a leather vest and a Budweiser.

[B]

You earned his plasma money. Yeah, you earned his plasma money. That's some guy who can barely stand up, for Christ's sake.

[C]

I dare you to fuck with that guy.

[B]

Yeah, fuck with that guy. That's what I'm saying. Fuck with someone who can fight back. But this is a big deal and it's a very known thing in the area. And it's one of those things. And many of Bobby's friends said that Bobby liked to, quote, get drunk and roll Indian, okay? So that night, Leslie and Bobby offered Donald a ride. Said, hey, we'll give you a ride. And he was 40 years old. He shit faced Donald is. And he is nowhere near his hometown. So he said, sure, I'll take a ride. What the hell? So they drive Donald outside of Farmington. They drive south, south into the canyons around the city. Okay? Bobby's driving. Leslie Ng is in the back seat. So Donald's in the front. Okay? Eng reaches up from the back seat as Bobby's driving and strangles Donald Hosi from the back.

[C]

Oh God.

[B]

Like a fucking mob hit. He said that. He said that he did this so Bobby wouldn't get into A car accident. Trying to kill him from the driver's seat. You know, you can't kill people while you're driving. It's very difficult. You know, driver needs to like, open something. You open it for them so they can keep their eyes. They need to kill a man. You just do it for them. You know what I mean?

[C]

You take their empty, you re beer

[B]

them, and we re beer them. You put a new straw in their fruit box and their juice box and you give it to them. Now that's crazy. So Bobby then pulled the car over on a remote canyon mesa near the Arizona border. They drag Donald from the car, which is obviously, you know, scary.

[C]

Here.

[B]

They drag him from the fucking car. He's dead, which is great. They strangled him. He strangled him from the back. So they pull him out. Wow, this is wild shit. And they said that they're, you know, as we'll find out later, they throw him. Him at the bottom of a CLIFF Basically about 150ft down at the bottom of a cliff.

[C]

They rolled him off the cliff.

[B]

They just tossed him off the cliff? Yeah. It's fucking horrifying. Wow. So they got nothing out of this? No, nothing. And by the way, the forensic files really had a ball with this part. The forensic files had the guys saying, an Indian. We got one. Which is wild. Like they were in Deadwood or something. I don't know if that's what they

[C]

were saying, but that's what the reenactment guys said.

[B]

The reenactment guys. We got an Indian. We got one. That's the reenactment guys.

[C]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Then that goes until late April 1998, when a hiker in this canyon here. By the way, it's reported either as April 1 or April 29. We're not sure. But it seems like April 29 is consistent with the reporting of the newspaper. So we'll do that. He discovers a decomposing body at the base of a cliff face about 150 down. 150ft down. The fall had broken the pelvis and several ribs.

[C]

Good Lord.

[B]

But the skull bore trauma not consistent with the fall. Blunt force injuries from blows administered before the fall. There were also pointy sticks at the scene with blood on them.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Poor Donald had eye socket injuries consistent with having a sharpened stick beam poked into them.

[C]

Oh, what the fuck?

[B]

They were stabbing him in the eyes with sharp sticks at the.

[C]

After they threw him off before. Before. What the fuck? Why would they do that?

[B]

They beat him and stuck sticks in his eyes. I don't Know what the purpose of that would be other than there's sick?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, there's no wallet on him. The pockets, he's been completely gone through. Sure. But ins. He's wearing boots. And inside of the boots, written in pen is a name. Oh, they're his boots. It's Donald To's boots.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

So they're like okay, that's at least a lead of where and he could have bought him at Goodwill, we don't know. But yeah, it might be his. They also. So they find the blood soaked stick, broken broomstick fragments and a shovel handle impression in the dirt. Like someone had left a shovel, laid it down. Okay. There were tire tracks, but they couldn't really compare it to anything. There were footprints also. So within a couple of weeks. Fingerprints from Donald's hand confirm his identity. His family was notified. They opened the investigation. It goes cold very quickly. Real quick, real quick. They have Nothing. Nothing whatsoever. May 29th, 1980, 98. There's a man, 22 year old, named Purnell. Wow. Tawinganatua.

[C]

Oh, that is a native man.

[B]

Yeah. T E W A N G O N I T E W A. Yep.

[C]

I'm not gonna.

[B]

That's a tough one.

[C]

Yeah. Not a chance.

[B]

He was. He knew Bobby Fry or Bobby Fry. He knew Bobby. He was last seen May 29th leaving the Gators Bar in Farmington where Fry was a bouncer. He's considered the. Fry is considered the last person to see him alive. He just disappears off the face of the earth. We don't find him, we don't know. So that's the second person that's close to Bobby, that knows him. That he was in proximity to him when they disappeared, that no one ever found him again. Okay, so time goes by, both of these are cold investigations. No one's looking at Bobby. Nothing at all. He keeps getting shit faced every night, getting shitty jobs that he does, playing Dungeons and Dragons and keeps telling people that he's killed all these people, all this type of shit. He's got a shitty Ford Aspire. It's not good. He keeps hanging out with Leslie Ng who must have enjoyed doing this type of thing because he keeps hanging out with him. Pollock isn't hanging out with him anymore. Pollock said he was avoiding Bobby because he didn't want to be around him. He said being around Bobby is dangerous and he didn't know when it would.

[C]

Bobby makes you an accomplice quickly.

[B]

And he said he thought he was escalating and getting more and he didn't want any part of it anymore. So June 6, 2000, Bobby, he's 26 years old now he's out drinking with Leslie ng, who is 22 at this point. They're out drinking at a bar. After the bar closes, they go to a nearby restaurant which for some reason is open later than the bars.

[C]

Yeah, what the fuck is that about?

[B]

That's weird. I could see like a Denny's, but this place has booze that they're still serving apparently, which means it's odd, Bobby gets into an argument with another customer at the restaurant because he's Bobby and he's drinking. Bobby goes out to his car and comes back in wearing a jacket. Oh, here we go. Witnesses and everybody there basically saw a bulge under the jacket. And Bobby leans into one of his friends and says, quote, I have an 8 inch Bowie knife and I'm gonna stick somebody tonight. That's what he says. Now they don't. His friends, they that haven't done murders with him are like, oh boy. Yeah, right you are. He's trying to feel like a big man. So at that point, Bobby and Leslie Ng left the restaurant in Bobby's Ford aspire to go to a convenience store for cigarettes. Okay, now outside the 7:11 is a woman on a payphone crying, making calls, hanging up, crying at the pay phone, crying. So this is Betty Jean Lee is her name. L, e E. She's 36 years old. She's a member of the Navajo Nation as well. She's from Shiprock. Remember you mentioned that earlier. About 25 miles west of Farmington on the edge of the reservation. She's 36 year old, divorced, mother of

[C]

five and not having a good night,

[B]

having a bad night, and we'll find out. Her friends kind of suck as we'll talk about here. She's a nursing student, by the way, going to college for nursing currently. She likes gardening, she likes gathering herbs for cooking, stuff like that. Nice lady is basically what she is. She's got a brother. Whenever she needs a ride somewhere, she knows she can call her brother at any time, her brother will give her a ride, basically. So that night, June 6th, Betty went out with two of her girlfriends. Now we'll call them Gloria and Tina. Okay, that's what the book called them. So anyway, you got Tina, you got Gloria and you got Betty Lee here. They went to the Turnaround bar in Farmington. Familiar spot by now. Now at the Turnaround, her friends Tina and Gloria met a couple of guys. Oh, strangers, yeah, okay. One, by the way, called himself Johnny Miller, which is what you tell women when you don't want to give them your real name. He was prob. He worked for the electric company. He's married. He's here for a couple nights.

[C]

He's on per diem.

[B]

I'm on per diem. My room's gross. Pete, y' all can come back. The other. Basically, they can't remember his name now. They decided Tina and Gloria said, we're gonna leave the bar with these two guys and go to a motel. Which is fucked up. If you came with three women and you're like, you're on your own. We're gonna go fuck these two guys in this hotel.

[C]

Yeah, you can't do that.

[B]

That's fucked up. Yeah, you can't.

[C]

You came together, you leave together.

[B]

Ladies. You come together, you leave together. You can't do this shit and leave this woman all by yourself. That's crazy. Unless you put her in a fucking taxi and whatever.

[C]

Or get her home and then drop

[B]

her off on the way to the motel. Yeah, but he said, no, we're going to the motel. So Betty is fucked, and she's 25 miles from home.

[C]

Ah, Jesus.

[B]

She's got nowhere to go, and it's midnight.

[C]

She lives in Shipwreck rock.

[B]

Yeah. She's 25 miles away. And now she's got no friends, no nothing. So she walks to a payphone at the 7 11, trying to call her brother. She calls him over and over again. He doesn't answer, so she starts crying. Now she's completely stranded and fucked, basically. So she starts crying. And it's at that point Bobby and Leslie pull up in the Ford Aspire.

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

Bobby pulls up and says, I hate to see a woman cry. At least if I haven't caused it. If I caused it, great. But that's what he said to her. I hate to see a woman cry. And she's crying and all that. And so he offers her, I'll give you a ride. He goes, why not? I'll give you a ride. And he seems nice. He's a big guy. Seems friendly. Says he hates to see a woman cry.

[C]

It's not fun to watch.

[B]

He motions to his turquoise blue Ford Aspire and says, I can take you. I can take you as far as Kirtland. I mean, that's something, you know.

[C]

Carl make it.

[B]

I mean, you know, it's a Ford Aspire, so it'll.

[C]

It'll get about 900 miles to the gallon.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'll get you there. I've had the same. Same tank of gas since 94.

[C]

I mean, ain't filled it up since I bought it.

[B]

They she thinks about it and she doesn't have anybody left to call. Her sister's watching her kids. And her sister had told her, please don't be too late coming to get the kids.

[C]

What a lifeline. Yeah.

[B]

She told her sister, I've just been so busy with school, I just need to get out. Just please watch them just for one night so I can do this and whatever. And then she sees at this point, it's almost 2:15am and she's like, oh, shit, I'm going to be in trouble here with my sister. So she says, okay, thank you. I'll take a ride. It's at that point a blonde man who looks like a baby chicken walks out of the 711 packing a pack of smokes there on his hand. And he opens up, yeah, opens up the pack there, feathers one over to Bobby and then offers one to Betty as well. And Bobby says, this is Leslie and I'm Bobby. Yeah, sounds great. They've offered to give you a ride. They've given you a cigarette and they seem friendly and they're introducing themselves. They all walk to the car. She says, my name's Betty, and they're all happy. So she climbs in after Leslie. Leslie gets in the passenger seat. She climbs in and she can see everything happening. Bobby lights a cigarette and they start driving away. Okay. Apparently at some point she rolled down the window. I think she's in the front seat. They roll down the window to feel some air. Now, also, a clerk at the convenience store heard a man fitting Bobby's description offer a ride to a woman fitting Betty's description. And also said there was a blonde kid, looked like a chicken. It was weird he was there as well.

[C]

What was a chicken face?

[B]

They all drove away in a car. So Bobby starts driving down an isolated dirt road. Road, okay. Now, if any woman out there, if you're in a car with two male strangers and they just turn down an isolated dirt road, your spidey senses are fucking tingling hard here, okay? So they drive for a good few minutes through the darkness and there's nothing there. So Leslie is in the back seat. She starts to feel a little bit uncomfortable, as one would, even if they've been drinking a little bit. Finally, Bobby stops the car and he turns and says, I gotta take a piss. So stops the car and gets out. What she does is decide, this is my only chance. Yeah, this guy's in the backseat. He can't do shit. That guy's over there pissing. She fucking swings the door open and jumps out of the car, starts running and starts running back toward the highway. Unfortunately, they're five minutes down an isolated dirt road. They're nowhere near anything. And she hears Bobby screaming, hey, come back. What are you doing? Hey, come back. So then they get in the car and they drive up, pull up next to her, and Bobby says, where are you going? I told you I'd give you a ride, didn't I? What are we doing here? What the fuck? Get back in the car. What are you doing? What are you crazy or something?

[C]

What the hell's going on?

[B]

So she looked out. She's in the middle of the desert. What the hell is she supposed to do? So she gets back in the car, she's like, well, I'm stuck out here, I can't do that. So she realizes I'm kind of fucked here. Here. So she gets back in the passenger side and Bobby's like laughing like, what are you crazy? Like, trying to make it real friendly, like this is okay. Whatever. I mean, hey, I get it, but don't treat me like a weirdo. Yeah, like what the fuck? So they drive a short distance back down the dirt road. And then he stops the car again. Okay, he gets out and starts going around. Now she tries to get out as well.

[C]

Uh huh.

[B]

But he's like there at the door. Before she can even get out, he grabs her by the hair and pulls her out of the car. Oh boy, this is terrifying. He's trying to get her down on the ground. He's wrestling with her. He tells Leslie to hold her legs while I get her clothes off.

[C]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

Jesus Christ. So she's struggling, struggling, struggling. He's got his eight inch bowie knife.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He sticks it in her chest. It only goes in about 2 inches though. That's far enough, which is far, but not far enough to kill you. So it penetrated the breastbone and the heart sac, but did not pierce the heart.

[C]

Oh my God.

[B]

That close. Okay, now she's a fighter, Betty. She's not going down easy, obviously. She pulls the knife out of her chest and throws it toward a ravine.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Which is both. I mean, I think you start swinging that motherfucker is what you do. You pull it out and you hang on to it. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, get close to me, I dare you. Start swinging it like a maniac. Just windmill that shit. Screaming like a lawnmower. Yeah, just. That would be the. That's the best way to be safe in that Moment. People are just gonna. They're gonna give you three feet, you know what I mean? But she's just trying to get away, fighting for her life. She just takes it and throws it so they can't stab her more, which is crazy. She tries to run away again. She gets up, tries to run away, but they catch up to her and tackle her and remove her shirt and pants. Now Leslie goes to look for the knife also. Got to have that. So at that point, she tried to run again.

[C]

She got up again.

[B]

She's trying to get away. She's fighting, she's fighting, she's fighting. So this is wild. Then Bobby goes to the car and gets a 10 pound sledgehammer out and comes over while Leslie's wrestling with her and smashes her in the back of the head.

[C]

Good God.

[B]

At least three and up to five times.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Huge 10 pound sledgehammer. Disgusting. Just terrible. Then Bobby and Leslie drag Betty's body into the bushes by the ravine. Okay. And they also kicked articles of her clothing off the road into the dirt on the side of the road, which is where we found them in the beginning of the story.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

At 4am as he's trying to leave. They're all done with the murder now. They've dragged her into the bushes. Bobby gets his car stuck in the soft sand because it's a Ford Aspire. Because it's a Ford Aspire. And they call Bobby's parents, Gloria and James Fry, who are asleep at home. They get a call at 4:00am by the way, they believe the call that he made was using Gloria's county issued cell phone for her job.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Okay. So they said, can you come pick us up? We're out near a dirt road by the twin mounds. The car's stuck. So they show up in a pickup truck, which also gets stuck in the soft sand.

[C]

Shit.

[B]

Son of a bitch. So now they're like, what the fuck do we do here? We're all fucked. So what they do is. And by the way, they're all standing

[C]

feet, feet away from the body. Yeah.

[B]

Put a body with mom and dad. Okay? So this is fucking crazy. Now here's a different thing. There's two different versions of what happened here. One is the Forensic files, and one is from the Albuquerque Journal newspaper. So whichever one is right. But the Forensic files version says that all three of the vehicles, the Aspire, the pickup and the tow truck, all the got stuck. Ultimately, the owner of Bloomfield Towing, Charlie Bergen, the guy with the phone from the beginning, had to Come out and pull all three of them out.

[C]

Got it.

[B]

That's one story. But the Albuquerque Journal reports that they reported that Gloria and James Fry, the parents, didn't initially get stuck. They pulled up, got Bobby out, and drove Bobby home so he could change clothes, clean up, and drive Leslie Ng home. And then they went out separately to the desert again to retrieve the Aspire.

[C]

So mom and dad were definitely out there post murder anyway.

[B]

Either once or twice. That's the only thing we don't know.

[C]

And these two men that just stabbed and bludgeoned a woman, they had to have had blood covered.

[B]

They're covered in blood, covered in blood.

[C]

How do these people not?

[B]

That's the point.

[C]

The fuck?

[B]

What the fuck? Now this account also has the truck getting stuck on the second trip out instead of the first trip. Either way, kind of irrelevant, kind of academic at this point.

[C]

This is a lot of time after

[B]

two, oh, so much time. So they go home, Bobby cleans up fresh clothes and gets dropped off at his place. Gloria and James go to whatever, get the. You know, retrieve the car and everything like that. We have Charlie Bergen either dragging two or three vehicles out of the soft sand, depending on whichever there. Either way, Charlie Bergen saw Bobby, saw Leslie, saw the Ford Aspire. He didn't know what was going on. But then later on he figured it out because that's. He dropped his cell phone while he's doing all this. If he didn't drop his cell phone, the cops have got nothing. The fact that they dry. He dropped his cell phone was the only connection they had to go on.

[C]

Also, they could call that this man dropped his cell phone within fucking feet of a murder. Murdered body.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

And had nothing to do with it. That's the first time that's ever happened.

[B]

That's what I mean. That's what they were like. We got our suspect. Here he is.

[C]

It's always that guy.

[B]

And he's like, yeah, I was out there towing. Sure. Thanks for finding my phone. And they're like, hold on a minute here.

[C]

Love to have it back.

[B]

Yeah. So Bobby and Leslie, either way, they got home before sunrise, changed their clothes, did all that shit. Bobby threw the bloody black T shirt and his work boots just into a pile in his bedroom, just on the floor there. That's how much he was so confident he'd get away with this. Then he went to sleep.

[C]

They never talked to him ever. May as well.

[B]

Yeah. So that same day is when the electrical line inspector finds the body that we talked about here. Being a little too curious now, the evidence that they find here is way different than the Tosi or to see Soci crime scene here. That was like in the desert. No DNA, no preservation. It was there for a month. He was there for a month. The eclectic scene had been cleaned up. Evidence and shit like that, that this was totally different. Fresh body, still warm. Blood everywhere. Three sets of footprints. Fresh tire tracks. A still bloody knife off in the bushes. A still bloody sledgehammer near the road. Articles of women's clothing that belonged to the victim on the side of the road. I mean, this is a different story.

[C]

It's messy. And it's messy because the man drives a Ford Aspire. And the Spires are going to do a spire thing.

[B]

They're going to aspire to do something. If you see anybody with three different tires, that is a window into their soul.

[C]

It's probably a Ford Aspire.

[B]

It's a window into their soul. They have mismatched shit going on in their brain. That's what's going on.

[C]

That is a life of chaos.

[B]

Yep. Where they're very poor, which, either way, that is a life of chaos.

[C]

Chaos, yeah.

[B]

But you can't help at that point. They've been there. Now, the body they figure out is Betty Jean Lee. She'd been stabbed in the chest and bludgeoned in the head. Jesus. So chest stab was a contributing factor? Not the cause. The blunt force head trauma is the cause. Three sets of shoe impressions at the scene, one belonging to the victim, meaning there's at least two assailants as well. Three different tire treads, meaning there's mismatched tires and somebody's a mess. So they find the cell phone and all that kind of thing. So it's 2pm June 7th. They have a body, a name, an autopsy going on. A knife, a sledgehammer with prints and DNA on them, mind you.

[C]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Three vehicles worth of tire tracks. A cell phone belonging to a guy who has business records that will link them to why he was there with Bobby Fry. First thing they did here, they called Charles Bergen, like I said. They found out all of that, that it's an Aspire, blah, yada yada. Bobby Fry and Leslie Ng. So by the afternoon of June 7th, they're on their way to the Bobby Fry house with a search warrant. At this point, by that afternoon. Okay.

[C]

That's amazing. That tow truck really fucked his life.

[B]

It fucked his entire. If he doesn't get stuck in that sand, nobody knows a goddamn thing. This guy keeps on killing for God knows how long because otherwise it seems like they're pretty inept around. They don't seem to really be doing much well. So they search Bobby's home. They find a pair of work boots, size 10 and a half with visible blood on them.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

They're like, all right, well, that's exactly what we're looking for. Couldn't possibly have anything more with blood on it. I mean, a shirt you throw out, but shoes you keep. You're wearing them.

[C]

You got some pants, anything?

[B]

Well, a black T shirt crumbled in a pile of laundry in his room with visible blood on it. So that's interesting. Oh, by the way, the boots are consistent with the shoe impressions at the scene. And that's nice. And also, witnesses describe him as wearing a black T shirt the night of the killing before he left the bar and everything. That's not good. The car, which is sitting in the driveway, has blood on the steering wheel, blood on the passenger side door interior, blood on a flashlight in the glove compartment, and a single earring on the floor of the passenger side. That does not belong to any female in the Fry household. Oh, okay. That does belong to Betty Levy.

[C]

Yeah, to Betty.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. The. There's so much blood. There's blood. Everything's got fucking blood on. There's blood everywhere. Yeah, he. Interesting. So the. They said that the blood on the knife and sledgehammer and the car, the shirt, the shoes and flashlight all match DNA samples from Betty's Lee. Uh oh. So in addition, they seize a pair of black sneakers belonging to Leslie Ng with blood on them that also matches Betty Lee's DNA. Also, there is a blood spatter expert that will say that the bobby shirt and shoes and Leslie Ng's shoes indicated that while many of the blood stains on the shirt and shoes were created by medium velocity impact spatter from a blunt instrument striking a blood source in front of the person wearing the shirt and shoes. Eng's shoes contained only low velocity transfer stains and no spatters or projection type stains. Based on the blood stains as well as the spatter stains on the sledgehammer, the expert says that the person wearing the clothes with the spatter, that is Bobby in his black T shirt and shoes, was leaning over the victim and repeatedly striking a source of blood with a sledgehammer. Whereas the person wearing the shoes without the spatter did not strike the victim with the slasher.

[C]

He's getting cast off.

[B]

He's getting cast off just from the hardness of him smashing her.

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

A witness, by the way, because they take knives. One of the knives at the scene, the big. The eight inch bowie knife. They take it around to places to see if anybody knows of this knife. Did you sell this knife? And somebody said they sharpened it for a kid named. Named Bobby Fry about a week ago. I know that knife. Interesting. And the tire tracks. If it wasn't enough, the tread on the three different treads were determined to be consistent with all three of the different tire treads on his car. Couldn't be worse for him. No, Leslie, by the way, we said with his spatter and all that kind of deal. Now, by the way, they also said Leslie Ng's bedroom walls were. Were, quote, papered in violent and gory images.

[C]

Okay. He's got a lot of choir posters.

[B]

Yeah. Who gives a shit? So the police talk to Bobby, this is the day after the murder. He tells them, I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't wearing a black T shirt and I wasn't wearing those boots. I don't know shit. I don't know anything. And then he just stopped talking. He just said wouldn't speak again for the rest of the interrogation. Okay, well, first smart thing he's done.

[C]

He's got some shit to explain though, doesn't he?

[B]

Not if you don't want to.

[C]

Yeah, I guess. Take me to trial then.

[B]

This is it. I'm not. I have right to remain silent. Fuck off. That's it. Okay, you're under arrest then, stupid. The victim's DNA is all over you, dummy. You know, what are you gonna do? So now Aang is brought in, he sits down and basically immediately broke. He was quickly, quickly.

[C]

The baby chicken couldn't handle the stress.

[B]

Jane couldn't do it. It's a long interrogation, but it's because he's giving all the details. He gives the location, Bobby's role, his own role. He said that? And he even confessed. This is horrible, man. He said that he could hear Betty making gurgling sounds and making sounds for some time after Bobby finished swinging.

[C]

Oh, fuck.

[B]

He used the word begging like she was begging for her life. We're not sure, but they think basically her brain stem was producing reflexive sounds in a. That's probably it. She was probably already dead. You make sounds sometimes after you're dead. Still, they said the sounds were probably involuntary, but in Eng's mind, they were begging, which should haunt this asshole. I would hope.

[C]

I hope so.

[B]

The police, by the way, Eng keeps talking and they get a bonus murder. Oh. Cause he's like, we killed somebody else too. And they're like, did you now?

[C]

Is that right?

[B]

Donald Tosi got him too. Yep. He told them everything. The turnaround. We jacked him for plasma money, the shovel, the broomsticks. They know he's telling the truth because

[C]

he's hoping he doesn't know. They've got nothing.

[B]

No, he has no idea.

[C]

He has no idea this is a. And they've got nothing.

[B]

He just starts spilling it. He just starts doing like fucking Chunk and Goonies. And then I did this in the third grade and then I threw up and I blamed it on my brother. That's what he just starts doing. I'll admit to everything. I don't care. Just don't hurt me. Tells him he pushed him off the cliff. Gives the details of stabbing in the eyes that only the killer's gonna know. And they said, well, why did you do this? Why did Bobby do this? And he said, well, he said Donald had cash and looked drunk and Bobby liked to roll Indians, so that's what we do. He gave them all of that shit. So they're both arrested, obviously.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now the charges for Betty Lee, for Bobby at least, are first degree murder, kidnapping, attempted sexual criminal, sexual penetration and tampering with evidence. Not good. Not good. Then Harley Pollack comes in here and they arrest him as well. Well, he's arrested on June 8th. Now, he wasn't involved in these murders, but they get him basically. Oh, he's not arrested. I'm sorry. He's reading the paper on June 8 and sees Bobby Fry got arrested for murder. He's like, oh. Oh. He must have freaked the fuck out at that point. So late 2000, few months later, Bobby finally. Or Pollock there, finally goes to the cops. Yeah, he goes to the cops. He contacts investigators he asked for immunity, saying he had information.

[C]

I'm Harley, I got a story to

[B]

tell which is not. I stabbed a guy a bunch of times, which is what he did. He came in and gave the first version of the story where he came out of the bathroom and he's a passive bystander. And Bobby killed Joe and Matthew alone. But they were like, listen, stupid.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

When you're ready to admit the rest, we'll talk to you more. Otherwise, go sit in a fucking jail cell. So eventually, over a series of statements over months, he gave the second version, which is probably the truth, where he came and did the second.

[C]

If he's got immunity.

[B]

He doesn't, by the way. No, the version has the samurai sword and chopping wood. It's all that shit. It makes it lines up with the evidence, much more better. So now his statements will be sealed under his immunity arrangement at first. But then in 2004, he's gonna have problems and it'll be unsealed. We'll get to that.

[C]

Oh, shit.

[B]

So Eng flips as well. Eng pleads guilty to first degree murder and kidnapping. And he must testify against Bobby at trial. That's part of it. So Bobby here, he's suspected in others, too. The San Juan County Sheriff's detective, Detective Tyler Truby, tells the press that he's also a suspect in the Purnell Tewen Ganatowa murder. And Travis Killen as well. They said Fry cannot be ruled out as the suspect in those two killings. There's also an unidentified woman found near the animas river in 1997. That was never solved. There's also a stabbing victim found in a Farmington alley during that same time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And none of them have been tied to Bobby because they don't have any evidence to tie him to Bobby. But they all seem like shit. Bobby would do.

[C]

Oh, boy.

[B]

They said. The detective said, in fact, he would definitely meet the criteria of a serial killer, adding that the FBI will make that determination in the end. But if I had to say, is he a serial killer? He's a fucking serial killer.

[C]

He's certainly got a lot of problems.

[B]

I would fucking say. Yeah. And he's done at least three separate acts now as a serial killer. That's what that is. Very little benefit out of cool down time.

[C]

Yeah. And very little benefit out of any of them except for the actual act of murder.

[B]

Yeah. And he's drunk every time, too. Another thing to look at now. Christina Trekker, Matthew's mother, blames the cops.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. She said law enforcement made a serial killer out of this fucking guy by not arresting. She said, quote, he wouldn't have been a serial killer if they would have arrested him 48 hours after he killed Matt.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Which is. Can't argue that all those people would be alive, but they had no evidence. 2002, trial for Betty Lee. Death penalty firmly on the table here. Absolutely. Now, the federal prosecutor here. The federal prosecutor wants to introduce testimony which claims. Claims that Bobby Fry told people he hated Indians, quote, unquote.

[C]

All right.

[B]

The defense attorney objected in court, saying, quote, they just want to portray Mr. Fry as a mean redneck. Yeah, that lines up. Yeah. That's what he is. I would call him a mean redneck.

[C]

It's a problem.

[B]

That's a good way to put it. Yeah. What are we talking about? Here they just want to portray Jimmy as a guy with a beard and glasses. It's strange. It's a problem. Weird. So the prosecution's case is Bobby Fry kidnapped Betty from the from a payphone with the intent to commit a sexual assault, attempted to commit that sexual assault, killed her in the course of the attempt, and then tampered with the evidence afterwards. Those are the charges. The aggravating circumstance offered for the death penalty was murder committed with an intent to kill in the commission of a kidnapping. So they bring in the convenience store clerk who saw the encounter at the payphone and placed both he and Ed with Betty. Also a friend at the restaurant who heard Bobby say he was going to stick somebody tonight with his blade. Another guy who sharpened the bowie knife for Bobby a week before the killing. And Charlie, the tow truck driver who identifies both of them as the guys he pulled from the sand at 4 o' clock in the morning. This is not good. All of this. Then they bring in the blood spatter expert. Expert Ron Englert, who is a retired Portland area detective or deputy who built a second career as a leading blood stain pattern analyst. So he testified. By 2002 he had testified in 300 cases across 25 states. He takes the stand and said there's medium velocity spatter, which happens when a hard object strikes a wet blood source. Tiny droplets, you know, aerosol eyes back at the swinger. Low velocity transfer which happens when blood touches fabric incidentally, without high energy impact. Sure. So he talks about all of these shirts. He said that the, you know, Bobby had the black shirt and the work boots and the, you know, they had the other guy's tennis shoes. And they talked about what we talked about before, that Bobby's shoes, based on the spatter and his shoes means that he repeatedly was swinging that over his head. And they said, not with Leslie though. They bring up Leslie Ng. He testifies. Really, he fucking spills it all too. The defense cross examines him really hard, calling him a self interested liar who had to cut a deal to save his own life. Like you would. It's, you know, every co conspirator they do that with. But the defense, their theory and what they're putting forward is that Eng did it all by himself and was framing Bobby. Oh, they said, well what about the blood spatter then? Yeah, and he said the analysis was flawed.

[C]

Yeah, it doesn't sound.

[B]

That's all. It's just fake. Yeah, they said the DNA, sure. That's not great, you're right. But it doesn't place Bobby as the swinger of the sledgehammer. Yeah, he was there, but he wasn't the killer. Killer. That's their story. The defense brings in its own blood spatter expert who disagrees with some particulars but really doesn't challenge the central theme of he has the higher velocity shit. And he's there. The verdict comes in. Guilty of everything.

[C]

Got him.

[B]

First degree murder, kidnapping, attempted sexual penetration and tampering with evidence. Okay, sentencing comes around here. Okay. The state brings in four witnesses for victim impact testimony. Betty Lee's brother, two of her sisters and her minor daughter at the time.

[C]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

Yes, we will definitely not give her name. They wanted to hide it then, so we really want to hide it now. So the brother here described Betty Lee. He described her as a sister who left Shiprock to study nursing. He described her as a divorced mother of five who wanted to come back to the reservation and serve as a child nurse and help the people.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. She was going to come back and practice medicine on the reserve. What an angel.

[B]

That's why she was going to dip. He described her as gardening. And he said that she tried to call him from the pay phone and was unable to reach him. Two sisters. I'm sure he was talking about it. Yeah, because his ringer wasn't loud enough

[C]

because he was asleep at 2:30 in the morning. And phones don't oftentimes wake you up.

[B]

That's what happens. Yep. So the two sisters talk about Betty Lee and say that they grew up with her and now her kids have to grow up without her. And Betty Lee's daughter also made a statement here saying how horrible it is to lose my mother. Obviously can't imagine. Can't imagine. So basically the legal question, did the aggravating circumstances, which is kidnapping with intent to kill, outweigh any mitigating circumstances offered by the defense? Now, I don't know what mitigating circumstances he could possibly have here. Think about it. What does he have? He's not like he doesn't have like a 68 IQ. No, he wasn't like tortured as a

[C]

child, but I did see ketchup smeared on people.

[B]

Thank you. I was hoping you would catch on to that. That's exactly the ketchup. That's what they talk about. He saw ketchup when he was three.

[C]

Yeah. I can't even use Heinz anymore.

[B]

I can't do it. I can't do it. I only eat hot dogs and only with mustard.

[C]

I skip that aisle at the grocery store. Can't even get peanut butter and jelly. Same aisle.

[B]

Same aisle. It's all there, babe. Salad dressing. I get it. Dry lettuce.

[C]

For the last 20 years, I've never had ranch.

[B]

I don't know what it is. It looks good on the commercials, but I don't know.

[C]

I've heard white girls love it on pizza.

[B]

That's what I hear. So the psychologist testifies that Bobby, given a life sentence, would be. Be statistically very unlikely to commit further violence. He put the probability of violence against other inmates at less than 10% and the probability of violence against guards at less than 1%. So this is a risk assessment thing that they try to put on here.

[C]

It's gonna be great.

[B]

Crap. Yeah, it's all good. You put him in there, he'll just. You don't have to worry about him forever. Lock him up. Throw away the killer.

[C]

You don't have to kill him.

[B]

He'll throw. They also, they have actuarial tables, clinical. All sorts of these crazy things here. So the jury. Yeah, basically they're saying, if we lock him up forever, it'll be all good. You don't have to worry about him. The prosecution does not cross examine psychologists heavily on the methodology. The state's judgment was. The jury is not deciding whether he's dangerous. He fucking kidnapped with intent to kill. That's what we're talking about here.

[C]

I don't care if he's dangerous to other inmates. He was dangerous as fuck.

[B]

As fuck. So they definitely bring up the ketchup incident. That's a big deal. There's also a pastor they tried to pull this shit with. Corey Richards and her sentencing, too. They read a letter from a pastor in jail who says she tries to help inmates come to the churches and find Jesus. I don't give a fuck if she's helping them find M&MS. Jesus, fucking whoever you want, Buddha. It doesn't matter what. What the fuck difference does that make? How does that mean? Oh, they're a good person.

[C]

Right?

[B]

I don't understand why that makes them a good person. It's ridiculous that we equate that. So fucking stupid.

[C]

And the way that that person is convicted of a crime, the crime that person's convicted of is fucking wild.

[B]

Yes. If she was.

[C]

I don't give much shit what she's done.

[B]

If she was that into Jesus, maybe she shouldn't have done that shit. I don't know. So the pastor testifies that Bobby has grown spiritually in prison.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

He also reads aloud letters from two of Bobby's sisters describing his childhood, the babysitter, the catch up, the bullying, forcing to be switched from left to right handedness, the volunteer fire department, the dying accident victim, all of it. It just was too much for him. He described Bobby as he goes to Bible study in prison and has conversations with Bobby about repentance. And letters describe Bobby as a young man whose darker tendencies had been visible from childhood, but whose family had loved him through them. The letters described the babysitter incident, the bullying, volunteer fire, all that stuff. The pastor was convinced that Bobby has found God in jail and convinced that given a life sentence, he'd be a genuine penitent. Penitent. For the rest of his days, he will be sitting there just saying his sorrows, saying his sorrys every goddamn day.

[C]

Drag the tin cup across the bars.

[B]

That's right. Gloria testifies his mother, Just don't kill my son. His father, James, asked the jury for mercy, saying, don't kill him so we can keep visiting him.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

The defense plays a videotape from the maximum security wing of the penitentiary of New Mexico depicting the conditions that he'll face as a lifer. Look at how shitty this place is. You really want to fuck with him? Put him in there forever.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You're giving him an out if you kill him. Yeah. The argument was, it's worse than death in there. Okay. Bobby speaks as well. He apologized to Betty Lee's family, admitted what he did. He didn't admit it out loud, but he said, I did this and I'm sorry. And it was horrible. At least he gave him that much. And he asked the jury to please spare his life for the sake of his loving parents.

[C]

Oh, he's afraid to die.

[B]

Sake of his parents. Now, before sentencing here, the trial judge talks to the jury and instructs them that under New Mexico's current parole math, a life sentence for first degree murder, plus the other consecutive sentences in this case, would mean Bobby would not be eligible for release police for 67 years. Oh, which would be in his over to the age of 90.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So basically, if you give him life, he will die in prison. He ain't getting out, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Unless he's 100 years old. Unless medical technology comes a real long way in the next couple years. They said he will die inside. And the jury says, okay, that's great. And then they return a verdict. You, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty. They didn't give a fuck. They were like, good, he'll die in there.

[C]

Let's make it as fast as we can.

[B]

Oh, he'll Die in there for sure, they said.

[C]

Yeah, you bet you will.

[B]

So the prosecution here was talking about this and said there's no motive or no past acrimony. He just kills people. And apparently he enjoys killing people.

[C]

That's what it sounds like, yeah.

[B]

He just likes this. There's no other explanation for it. 30 bucks from Plasma is not enough to kill someone now. Mom. His mom, Gloria Fry, is in some trouble, by the way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. A coalition of local victim Advocates delivered a 250 signature petition to the San Juan county government demanding that she be removed from her position. She's a probation, misdemeanor person. The petition cited the cell phone, her car at the crime scene, meaning her truck was at the crime scene scene. By the way, that was a county issued vehicle that ended up at the crime scene. The truck.

[C]

She drove the county truck to go

[B]

pick up her son who was using the county phone, allegedly and apparently. Oh, my God, that's not good. So they said that she showed up later on, by the way, when the officers were still processing the crime scene. She showed up at some point. That's according to the report, though she was, as per the early reporting, allegedly trying to find her son, which doesn't make sense. She already taken him home. So I don't know how that worked unless. Unless she took him home and then he disappeared again. I don't know. She said she drove to the scene because she had heard or suspected that he was in some kind of trouble there. Got out of the car, per multiple officers present. The deputies were still photographing the body location and bagging evidence. Evidence? Don't know if that's true or not. Don't know. But that's in the documents of her, of the petition and everything. On June 7, 2002, she is fired. So that's it for Gloria. Now. Leslie Ng pleaded guilty to first degree murder and kidnapping in the Donald Tsi and Betty Lee cases. His negotiated sentence was, you, sir, may fuck off. 40 years.

[C]

That's it?

[B]

That's it. Which is against the state's recommendation. They asked for more. Yeah, 40, that is. Wow. So they go to trial for Donald now as well. Ang testifies Bobby Fry. Just the same shit used to roll Indians after getting drunk. A second witness corroborated Bobby's pattern of rolling Indians. Not our term, by the way. This is what they say. The defense attempted to put the killing on Leslie Yang again.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. They said, well, he's the backseat strangler over here, this guy. Remember that? So, you know, and they said, ang Had a personal interest in framing Bobby. Did he also? That's what the defense said. The defense said, you know, he's got interest in framing Bobby because he's the one strangling the guy. Verdict comes in, he's a guilty again. Uh huh. Okay. By the way, death penalty on the table again here.

[C]

Uh oh.

[B]

He says, Bobby speaks again. He says, quote, I ask you today, God, please don't kill me. I don't want to die. There was no damn excuse for what happened to him. That's what he tells. Yeah, that's about right. Now you're getting it stupid. He is sentenced to. I'll get the gavel out this. You sir, may fuck off. Life in prison to run consecutively to the death sentence. After the death, yeah, we'll grab his corpse and bring him back in his cell and sit him there for another 40, 50 years. So if that ends up getting taken away, he's still consecutive with life in prison. So he's fucked. Now Harold Pollack, remember OL Harley?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

2004. He will have plead guilty at this point point to being an accessory in 2004. That is because he refuses to testify against Bobby at the upcoming trial. He doesn't want to do it even though he's supposed to because he's an idiot. He refuses to testify. This is the eclectic trial of those two murders. He refuses to take the stand. So the prosecution reads his preliminary hearing statements into the record of the trial over the objection actions of the defense. This testimony here is the second one where they're trying to chop his head off and all that kind of shit. Okay. They heard. I saw Bobby on top of Joe, wrestling with him. Bobby had his hands around Joe's throat. Stood up, stepped on Joe's throat. He was wearing work boots. It was like chopping wood. We can do this. We can be each other's alibi and of course let's cut his head off. Which is crazy. The state called other witnesses here, Medical examiner. They called Larry Hudson, Bobby's friend, who testified to the knife collection that he named the knives. He brags about violence. They called in witnesses that described the. That basically said that Bobby described the eclectic murders to them. Exactly how they actually happened. Yeah, they brought him up. They said what did Bobby tell you he did? And they. And they would describe it and they'd go, sounds like the record, doesn't it? Okay, I've heard of that. Bobby takes the stand. This time he described what he called this is amazing. His theory of how these killings might have happened. Here's a theory.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he said that the prosecution argued that they were basically. That. It's just they're. I'm only here because they've heard shit that I say. The prosecution said it was too close to reality to overlook it. Basically, the stories knew shit that only the killer knew wasn't publicly released. So they said his hypothetical of how the killings could have happened. Was so close to actual forensic record. That it was like a soft confession. Yeah, it did, because he gave his. During while he talked to the cops. He gave a polygraph at one point giving his theory. Which was exactly what happened. It's just with different people doing it.

[C]

But what are you. Detective Tench. What are you doing?

[B]

Yeah, he knows. I'll tell you exactly how it went down.

[C]

Holden.

[B]

So the. Holden. What's up? Holden? We're going to profile this guy now. The verdict comes in 11 hours of deliberation.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

That's a lot.

[C]

Is it? That's pretty days, right?

[B]

That's a good amount. Fuck, yeah. Wouldn't take me 11 hours on this one. I don't think so. Basically, Pollock's hearsay testimony was a problem for some jurors. That they admitted his testimony. They said our only real evidence is this guy who's not even here. Like it's a piece of paper. We can't even look at the guy in the eye and tell if he's lying or not. But they come back and find him guilty. Two counts of first degree murder. Plus larceny, tampering with evidence and intimidation of a witness. Because he. He allegedly tried to scare a witness off cooperating with the original investigation.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off again. Two consecutive life sentences. Consecutive to the death penalty. And the other consecutive life sentence.

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

He's got hundreds of years and a death penalty now.

[C]

Are they gonna keep doing more?

[B]

Oh, they're gonna keep doing it. Plus the larceny and tampering and intimidation. Time all tacked on consecutively at the end there too. Total sentences. One death sentence, three consecutive life sentences. Plus various decades worth of shit for the other stuff. Literally like 300 years and a death penalty he's gotten. It's no possibility of parole, no matter what, even if the death penalty is taken away. Christina Trekker, Matt's mom here. Now I get it. She's pissed off. She said that she would. This is a wild thing. She said. Said that she would like to put the needle in his arm herself.

[C]

Really?

[B]

And then in the same breath said. But she's pro life.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Those two things that cross, I never will understand at all. It's the weirdest thing in the world. I don't get it. But that's fine. She said, I do think he got his just desserts for what he did to Matt. And she served as a mom. I totally understand what she's saying here. She said she doesn't like. This is ridiculous, too. She doesn't like to think about him being wined and dined in prison. Have you seen what maximum security prison is?

[C]

She thinks that they get the final meal every day.

[B]

She watches a certain channel where they probably tell you constantly how easy the prisoners have it. They don't have it easy. It's shitty. The food's terrible. They have to pick bugs out of it. It's disgusting.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

The whole thing's terrible. He's not being wined and dined in prison. That's crazy. Crazy. First of all, that's dumb.

[C]

But why did anybody think she thinks he gets to his pick every day?

[B]

That's such a. You hear tons of people saying that. Most people will say, these guys are in there living it up in prison. Really? Been to a prison, Stupid.

[C]

I've seen a prison hooch and snort cocaine smuggled in somebody's asshole.

[B]

A guard's asshole. Coke that came out of a man's asshole.

[C]

Imagine that's how you're living.

[B]

Look, I get that her son's been murdered and she's pissed off. I totally get that. I totally get her saying, I don't want him being in prison. I don't want to pay for him to eat anything. I don't want to pay for him to eat slop. But to sit and feed him.

[C]

I mean, what do you.

[B]

Wined and dined. I mean, that's. Oh, new cutlery, please. This place setting has got spots on it. You know what I mean?

[C]

He's got a lot of Silverado bottles on the wall. A lot of Caymus.

[B]

Well, when they come to the table, they're like, white or red. And then they take the other glass away because they have a red glass and a white glass.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Swirl it a little bit. Yeah.

[C]

Make sure it's not vinegar.

[B]

She said, I just wish the death penalty they gave him for Betty Lee would be carried out and get it over with. Get this garbage off the face of planet Earth. Like I said, totally get it. Understand, Harold here, because he wouldn't testify, he is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. Two life sentences.

[C]

Holy shit.

[B]

Yeah, he went to the cops this fucking morning.

[C]

He fucked up he didn't have to

[B]

do any of this shit. He's just an idiot. So that's crazy. Now in jail, Leslie does some interviews. So does Bobby. We'll talk about the chicken. Now here is an article from Emily, but spelled weird. I M I L I E. Yeah, that's a weird Emily Carrick Cerusco. She has been apparently really working on this case. Here's a quote. I remember the day I first interviewed Leslie in the San Juan County Detention Center a few months after he confessed. Although I had seen him before in court appearances, we'd never met face to face. I sat waiting in an interview room that was completely filled by a large metal table and chairs. When the guards brought him in, unlocked his handcuffs and left him there, I was amazed at the fear I didn't feel. He offered his hand for a limp handshake. He barely met my eyes. He sat, his shoulders slumped as if he was trying to take up as little room as possible. His hair was blonde, cut short, and he wore wire rimmed glasses that gave him a bookish look. His jumpsuit was short sleeved for summer and as he sat down, I noticed the tattoos across his bicept. The demon tattoo across one arm gave my stomach its first nervous jump. His face showed little reaction to my presence. Although his voice, nervous and hesitant, betrayed him as eager to please. He punctuated nearly every sentence with a high pitched laugh. We talked about the first meeting, icebreaker type things, his favorite books. What did he do to pass the time in jail? His life before all this. I was surprised to learn that not only was he an avid reader of Nietzsche, his philosophy, but he was also a card carrying member of Amnesty International and a passionate advocate for independence in Tibet. Those are all great things, but you can't kill a bunch of people first and then be like, hey, free Tibet, motherfucker.

[C]

Why are you in love with this man?

[B]

Yeah, she's mind blowing. He told me how he spent much of his time helping his cellmates, leading Bible study sessions, helping the literate, the illiterate learn to read and teaching them about their rights. He became known for firing off letters to the ACLU when the prison guards got out of hand. Something that has made him a favorite target of the authorities. He said. Yeah, when he was not helping others, Leslie was busy writing short stories and poetry, oftentimes using media, meditation or yoga in his jail cell as a way to get his creative juices flowing. We spent much of my first visit speaking of flowing juices. Jesus, it's enough glowing shit here.

[C]

Take it easy, lady.

[B]

We spent much of my first visit discussing philosophical questions. What exactly is art? How could one succeed within society's definition of success while staying true to their art?

[C]

What?

[B]

Start a podcast? Works great. You can do whatever you want. If people follow it, awesome. If not, fuck it. Maybe Netflix will put you on. It's weird. That's how you do it.

[C]

Who are we? What does we mean?

[B]

Who am I? Who am I?

[C]

You're gonna sit there with a murderer and have that conversation?

[B]

Well, he says this, quote, mainly, I'm a poet.

[C]

Mainly, you're a murderer.

[B]

My poetry is really a piece of my soul. I write a lot of abstract and freelance poetry. Freelance? Like he's gonna be contracted to write? Yeah, like they're gonna say, hey, Po, please, there's a magazine. We really need some poems from this dipshit.

[C]

I've heard more about his murder, about his murders than his poems, so I'm gonna say mainly, he's a murderer.

[B]

He said, once you get the structure, you sacrifice the art for me. I don't want the success if I have to go that way. Success, yeah.

[C]

I don't want commercial success.

[B]

I do things for the art. I'm real free spirited about a lot of things, which, of course, jail doesn't help a lot with. Said when Leslie and I and I eventually spoke about Betty Lee and Donald Tosi, he was clear about what he perceived to be his responsibility. Quote, I don't like being in jail or anything. No one does. But I realize where I was wrong, and that's the price people pay. Okay. He also felt a certain pride in putting Bobby behind bars. He said while he's able to explain his involvement in Betty Lee's death on a rational level, Leslie seems oblivious or obviously shaken, which is he talks about that night. He says, quote, I grabbed her legs when I was told to, and I looked for his knife. Leslie told me as he looked down and carefully inspected his hands, his voice barely above a mumble. I didn't look real hard for it because I just heard screaming. Something that I won't wish on anyone to hear. It was real agonizing. Even worse was the stop to the screaming because by then, especially after he stabbed her, she was running. He went to catch up with her. Her, the screaming was just horrid. I wake up in cold sweats to this day. But even worse was the sudden stop to the screaming because there was no doubt what had happened. The article goes on to say, he stopped then and looked up for a second, but didn't meet My eyes. When it came to Donald Tosi, whose death was arguably equally brutal, Leslie showed little emotional reaction. He said, that one wasn't as hard to deal with because I didn't know he was dead until the cops asked me about. About it.

[C]

You didn't know you threw him off

[B]

a cliff after you strangled him and threw him off a cliff? Yeah. Jesus Christ. He treated him like a discarded roadrunner accessory. Just fall off the cliff and make a poof at the bottom, he said. I knew Bob had beaten him up. I guess I should have figured in some ways, but in other ways, I just figured he got beat up and walked away. Leslie said he only strangled Donald to keep them from getting in a car accident. He said he was restraining him so that he and Bobby wouldn't. So that he wouldn't fight Bobby while he was driving the car. He says he thinks about Betty and Donald every day. He's considered writing letters to their family to apologize, but decided that any contact from him might do more harm than good. Leslie goes on to say, I often wonder if Fry thinks about his deeds. He wrote in a letter to me, meaning to the reporter, I myself try not to, but can't escape my guilty guilt. Sometimes I think how much easier life would be if I was a sociopath. Just kidding. Lol. Jk. Yeah. What the fuck? San Juan County Sheriff Bob Melton was the lead investigator on Bobby and Leslie's case. He never believed Leslie's innocent act. He said, quote, I don't buy that. He was terrified of Bobby and feared for himself if he didn't do what he was told. I think he was into it. Yeah, I think I agree with that. He seemed to show some real fervor for it. Some real aptitude as well. I think he's into it.

[C]

Rachel Gusto held the legs for Christ's.

[B]

Yeah. They said Sheriff Melton stood out in San Juan County. He became a police officer because he wanted to help people. After years in law enforcement, he developed an intuitive sense about people that helped him cut through the stories and get to the truth. Sheriff Melton and I worked together often during my time at the Daily Times, and I came to respect. Respect his intelligence and compassion. Melton said about Leslie, quote, I can see a person being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but not twice and maybe more. That's the truth. When he initially strangles Donald, he is sitting directly behind him and has his belt at the ready. Sounds pretty planned to me. Yeah. Yeah. They also talk about the shit in his bedroom, saying his walls Were plastered with pictures of blood and gold. And he said the room looked like it was inhabited by someone who reveled in cherished and revered violence. That's a little. That's crazy. Okay? They said the quote. Even for Melton, the seasoned law enforcement official. The sight sent chills down his spine. I try to picture this room in my mind. I try to picture Leslie the Nietzsche reading. Amnesty International member, fellow prisoner teaching Leslie. Selecting these images and carefully placing them on the walls of his intercession sanctum. The place where he is who he is. And no one ever has to know who is the real Leslie. I came to believe that Leslie is no better than Bobby. In fact, with his ability to conjure up compassion. To imagine his way to sensitivity. He just might be a whole lot worse. He just might be. She started out that article with practically, you know, we're going to the homecoming dance. And then at the end, she. He's worse than the other fucking guy. Fuck him.

[C]

I think he might be worse. Yeah.

[B]

Cause you don't know at least the other guy. You know what you're getting? A psychopath. This guy, he can play. He's like Ted Bundy, this guy. He's playing the role. So here's a problem. The lawyer who represented Harold Pollock. During Pollock's plea negotiations on the eclectic charges Was Randall Roberts, a Farmington attorney. Randall Roberts was simultaneously representing Robert. Robert Fry on a different unrelated case. At the time, he was negotiating Pollock's plea against Robert Fry.

[C]

Why would he do that?

[B]

Because he's a fucking asshole, apparently, who wanted to make a few extra bucks. That's all I could imagine. I don't know. Allegedly the same attorneys working both sides of this. Can't do that at all. Couldn't be more of a conflict of interest. Crazy. So also Sandra Price, the District Attorney of San Juan county, knew about the conflict. Conflict. Knew about it was okay with this? The state's Attorney General's office. In the appellate briefing coming up. Conceded that she had known about it. So even the fucking office admitted she knew about it. And the AG's office characterized her conduct as having fallen short of the ideal. But argued that it didn't rise to the level of a conviction. Turning overturning violation.

[C]

Really?

[B]

By the way, Price would end up going on to win an election as a state district court judge. And remains on the fucking bench today. This fucking idiot. Okay, great. By the way, I better hope I don't get pulled over in Farmington.

[C]

Don't go to end up in front of Mexico. That's What I do. It's a bad place.

[B]

No problem. Easy. That's an easy one. Done and done.

[C]

It's a bad place. I swear it.

[B]

We're not going there for the show. That's never on our tour schedule. And I can't imagine going there just to see the sights.

[C]

If I ever had to drive to Oklahoma, I would certainly go. Go around.

[B]

Go up and around. So. 2005, Bobby appeals to the State Supreme Court. Now they unanimously affirm his conviction of first degree murder. But the Chief justice, Richard Bossen, dissented from the court's decision to uphold the death sentence. So it's still upheld, but he dissented. He said that he should have been remanded for a new sentencing hearing, contending that jurors weren't properly instructed on the legal standard needed for capital punishment in New Mexico. He said the new sentencing hearing was needed to make certain that the jurors understood that the intent to kill for the kidnapping aggravated circumstance was different than the intent necessary to convict him of felony murder. Oh, so there's a very fine line there. He said the jurors must be properly advised of those legal distinctions to ensure that the death penalty is imposed fairly and reserved for only the worst crime. I agree with that. 2006, Bobby Fry speaks from prison.

[C]

Why?

[B]

He says, by the way, he's not guilty of any of these crimes.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Even though he apologized during sentence.

[C]

We got the wrong guy.

[B]

The wrong guy. It's mistaken identity. There's another fat guy in a misfit shirt walking around with his blood all over him.

[C]

Square one.

[B]

Yep. He said, as far as for me being imprisoned for what I've been accused of, for what I've been convicted of, I still say I did not commit these crimes. Crimes.

[C]

A lady's blood was on your shirt in your bedroom.

[B]

Well, that's okay. He said, that's fine because he's made peace with God now. He said, quote, the hardest thing for me has been to ask for God's forgiveness. Well, yeah, that's been hard. So hard for anybody. So hard. Obviously. Adding that he feels sorrow for the victims families. He said, quote, do I feel sorry for the families of those who died? Yes, I do.

[C]

Good.

[B]

And I said so in court. And I told each family member, I'm sorry for your life loss. And I was and still am. Okay. Now, Christina Trekker heard that Matt's mom and said he's a liar who enjoys killing. I hope he rots in hell. He says he doesn't think that's going to happen because Fry says, quote, everybody's guilty of sin. Some have greater sins than others. He's.

[C]

Hold on.

[B]

Religious bullshit. It's all the same as long as you ask for forgiveness. Jay walking is the same as Mar. Oh, that's his whole fucking. That's what he said.

[C]

James, I fucked a woman before we got married.

[B]

Well, it's okay. You might as well cut her throat afterwards.

[C]

I should get a dissection. Ask God.

[B]

Everybody's fine. God would have been cool with that.

[C]

Wait till he hears about the abortions.

[B]

Oh, man. He also says that he's come to terms with the rest of his life and what he faces. He says people can like me. They can dislike me, they can hate. Hate me in my life. I know there's some things that I've done wrong.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

I would say we're all guilty of

[C]

a little bit of sin.

[B]

Everybody sins a little. Trekker's mother said, I'm suffering for the rest of my life. I've got every day to remind me my son was a living, breathing human being who had a right to live. She said also she's going to write a book that will tell the real story of the eclectic. She says she's searching for closure and it's very difficult. She said Matthew was a good, loving kid and wouldn't do nothing to hurt anybody. And she also says she wishes there'd be more of a focus on the victims than on Fry. I hope we did as well as we could there. 2009. Okay. The new Mexico state legislature votes to repeal the death penalty in New Mexico, effective July 1, 2009. But the repeal is prospective only. It's not regressive. Okay.

[C]

Nothing retroactive.

[B]

Nothing retroactive. So it's basically, if you're on death

[C]

row, he's gonna kill the remainder of them.

[B]

But no more new ones on here. There's only two men on death row at this point. Robert Fry. And talk about the. By the way, we've done this. We did his episode. I believe. I believe this was Flora Vista, New Mexico. Timothy Allen. Talk about the. Not as nearly as bad as. I feel terrible for this guy. He's got to have that asshole's name. Can you imagine?

[C]

Loser's name.

[B]

I'd rather have a murderer's name than that. Heck. But anyway, so he's on death row for strangulation of Sandra Phillips, who is 17. I believe we did that episode nine years ago. So, legal findings based on this repeal, Robert Fry's lawyers file a bunch of motions arguing that prospective only repeal is unconstitutional. They need to apply it retroactively. The district court denies all that shit. 2011 State Supreme Court which by the way, the New Mexico Supreme Court consists of three coyotes, two jackrabbits, Snoopy's brother, and a chunk of turquoise. That's what sits up there. It's weird, the turquoise is the Chief justice too. That's the interesting part. And the hair of Geronimo, well, that goes on the side that's hanging on the wall behind them. So he appeals, they hear his arguments. That confrontation argument was the serious one about the attorney thing here. The sixth amendment guarantees a defendant the right to confront his accusers. Pollock didn't take the stand, but they read his statements in also the conflict of interest argument, all that type of shit. So basically the New Mexico Supreme Court said, nah, you're good. Death row's stick around. By the way, this prison sucks too. It had a huge 1980 riot that's very famous. And it's a mess. They've really beefed up Security. By 2002 when he's there. It's bad shit. Now, Leslie, in prison, he wrote letters from prison to the victims families begging for forgiveness before deciding that he was doing more harm than good in stomping.

[C]

Yeah, you can't do that.

[B]

You can't do that. Some people do that and they love it. I'm telling you, I listened to shit. And the Cory Richens sentencing where multiple people said they became close and tight with the people that killed their family members and tried to get them out of prison. Cuz they reformed themselves. It happens all the time.

[C]

What?

[B]

It's crazy as fuck you didn't watch that sentencing. You're out of dinner, you gotta watch that sentence.

[C]

But the victims have to invite the conversation. Right? You can't just.

[B]

No. Why? Sometimes they just write letters saying they apologize and then they think about it. And some people go, oh man. Well, you know, if they're real reforming, let me see if they're really trying. And then they write something back and who knows? It happens. I wouldn't do it personally. Don't get me wrong.

[C]

You're telling me Ted Bundy could have written the families of those girls from Florida State?

[B]

Yeah. If you wanted to write any letter you want to anybody, unless there's an active restraining order against you, you can write a letter to anybody that's so sick that you want. Yeah, and like I said, some people want it. I think it's crazy, but some people want. By the way, profilers that looked at him also think that he might have multiple Personalities. Leslie Yang, we're not sure. Yeah, he's currently Inmate 419862, New Mexico Department of Corrections. MSNBC did a documentary segment including an incel interview with Robert on camera in his prison clothes, holding a Bible. All he talked about was God and there's nothing he'd done that God didn't forgive him for. Didn't apologize. Eyes just said that God told me I'm good. 2013, Christina Trekker writes a letter to the editor that is just scathing. Basically, this is who my son was that you don't really care about. Essentially people out there. So it's pretty long. Otherwise I'd read it right now, the whole thing. But either way, she says, thanks to the McCormick Elementary School, I still have pictures of him as he grew, basically.

[C]

Oh yeah, you get one every year.

[B]

You get one every year because Fry cut the picture taken short. They also say that Alex was. They talk about another guy, the owner of the store. It's very interesting. It's actually an interesting letter to the editor, but never mind. June 2019, okay. Bobby's still on death row. There's tons of challenges. They don't have the drugs to do it anymore. It's a mess. So this is when he found Jesus. He's walking around with a Bible telling everybody that he's always holding a Bible. This is a prop for him that he can. Anybody ever holds a Bible up to show you how good they are, it means they're a fucking liar and should shoot that Bible out of his hand like Blazing Saddles. He's full of shit. So New Mexico Supreme Court there, by the way, in the last half century, they've only carried out one execution. Terry was his name, 50 years. Who was sentenced to death for kidnapping, raping and murdering a nine year old girl. He fucking earned it. He abducted, took her to his. Abducted her, took her to her brother's ranch where he tortured and raped her and shot her in the head. A nine year old. And her body was discovered in a shallow grave. Jesus Christ. So anyway, there's all these appeals here. There's Fry and then there is the other guy, Timothy Allen. They're both the two guys on death row row. So they go over the whole thing here and they said that there's no meaningful distinction justifying their continued isolation as the only two scheduled for execution. So the court vacates both their death sentences and resentments both of them to life in prison.

[C]

Commutes them.

[B]

Commutes them. But I mean, now he's got four consecutive Life sentences. He ain't getting out. Um, yeah, he's totally fucked here. Under New Mexico's math, though, Basically the math takes him out to 165 years before he could get parole, even go for a meeting.

[C]

There's a chance.

[B]

There's a chance. For Tim Allen, though, life MEANT an additional 25 years tacked onto his existing sentence. And so he would have to serve 55 years before beginning parole, which could actually happen. Wow, that's crazy. What did he do?

[C]

Just murdered somebody?

[B]

That. Yeah, he murdered like a 17 year old, I believe. No, a woman. It was horrible. I think it's Flora Vista. I want to say it's episode 82 of Small Town Murder Bobby in prison. He's at the Penitentiary of New Mexico in Santa Fe, number 56859, maximum security wing. Yeah, he's 165 years. Leslie Ng here has 25 years tacked on to his sentence consistent with the Allen tree treatment because he too has been involved in the cases. So he'll be in prison till at least his late 70s. Leslie Ng, the Eclectic is closed down. The building's still there. And people show up and do YouTube shots of the outside of the fucking joint there. Joseph Fleming was buried at the Greenlawn Cemetery in Farmington. Matthew Trekker's buried near him in the same cemetery there. So, yeah, Donald Tosi's family said they did a. Like a Navajo ceremony as quiet, private, religious, cultural thing. And I don't know where Betty Lee ended up, but I'm sure they took her and put her somewhere respectful.

[C]

It's fucking cold there, man.

[B]

So in the media, this was a Forensic files episode, season 10, episode 24 on the floor, and also the book Monster Slayer by Robert Scott. So there you go. That's Farmington, New Mexico, everybody. What a fucking mess of a town and an awful story. If you enjoyed that story, well, you're sick fuck. And we love you for it. Thank you. And also, please give us a review on whatever app you're listening on or thumbs up on Netflix. All that shit helps tremendously. Follow us on social media. We are Smalltown Murder on Instagram, Smalltown Pot on Facebook. Shut upandgivemerder.com is where you get all of your tickets. Come see us for a live show. Also, merchandise. Everything from coffee mugs to skateboards. Come see us. Royal Oak is sold out, but we have Minneapolis and Milwaukee. Milwaukee, September 18th. Minneapolis, September 19th. Those Milwaukee tickets are getting low. Grab those tickets if you want them. Minnesota, get your shit together. Start buying some More tickets there. Dallas. You gonna let Milwaukee embarrass you? Give me a break. Dallas on October 3rd, San Jose on the 16th, 17th of October, Sacramento. And then November 13th and 14th, Tarrytown and Boston. Shut up and give me murder.com patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody five dollars a month or above. You get everything we put out, including as soon as you subscribe hundreds of back bonus episodes, almost 400 of them. You get immediately to binge new ones every other week. One crime in sports. One small town murder. You get them all. All this week, crime and sports. Christian power team. Bend a rebar and go thank you Jesus. After you've done a bunch of steroids and the leader of the thing ended up getting in trouble for some stuff, we'll talk all about it. Small town murder, Internet salad. Everything that's going on in the world as long as it doesn't have anything to do with politics. Not that we don't care, but we feel like you get enough of that and we're just going to give you a light hearted hour to chill out and relax. Patreon.com Crime in sports and you get every damn show we do. Crime in sports, you stupid opinions. Small town murder. Both shows all ad free with that Patreon and you get a shout out. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful, fabulous, fantastic people who would never ever strangle us and leave us in a desert to die. Hit me with them right now.

[C]

This week's executive producers are Alana Zemel, my favorite Canadian, Frank Lacroix. My God, sir, what a story.

[B]

Frank has a wild story. Frank. Thanks brother.

[C]

We'll get back to you.

[B]

Frank, Jesus, you got quite the tale. Thank you.

[C]

Yeah. Gary Howard is in High Point. I think that's north. Gary Mandilla, Dylan Carico and Beth Beau.

[B]

Thanks for the podcast.

[C]

Thank you all so much. You're amazing. Other producers this week are Brendan Abels, Liz Vasquez, Scott Sharkin, Penny Boyce. Happy hour checking in. And Texas Janice Film, Nathan Rose Monsandra. Happy birthday.

[B]

Happy birthday. These are like a lot of our old school favorites these days.

[C]

It's a bunch of people that jumped onto pow pal this week. Thank you all so much. Other producers this week, Olivia Colwell and then also another Olivia. I don't know if they're related. It's possible. Chloe Miller, Rain Ellery, William Inskeep. He's been around for a while. He may have just gotten right back into Patreon. Deanna with no Last name Ashley Carey, Matt Schertzer, Anna Pinero, Toni Bauer, Melissa Gerber, Lindsay Cook, Kiki with no last name. Boogie in your butt or don't I wish she didn't. Marissa W. Please don't. Kristen Elrick, Michael with no last name. Dustin Grace d', Angela Warren or deangela. I don't know. That wasn't an apostrophe. Tina Radon. Checketts. J. Nut, Michelle Davis, Cara Butcher. Butcher, probably. Jeanette with no last name. Leanne French. Nicole Smith. Anna's daughter, I imagine. Kelsey Jones, John Archer, Aaron Maxson, Julie Parrish. Ram with no last name. John Finnegan. Heather Page. Samara. Samara. Samara Jenkins. Probably Samara, right? Freddie Smith, Brian Dees or DS I don't know. Jonathan Gray, Matty Hall, Larry Baker Jr. Scott McDonald, Dustin Chenault, Karen Shoemaker. Danny with no last name. Ashley Marks, Alika Dodd, Denise Dage or Day. D, A, I, G, H, that's Dage, usually. Sandy Pecock. Pocock. Ingrid Mayer, Meyer. Maybe Kyla would know. Last name? Terry with no last name. Lauren with no last name. Sam Fenster. Laurie Sullivan, Elizabeth Height, Eileen Schilling, Melissa Hernandez. KK Sarah with no last name. No, no. With no last name. Please, no, no. Haley Yee Jackson Baxterson. Zach with no last name. Joey, Matthew. Heather Pates. Michael Penland. Penland. Trevor Wood, Shane Philbin. Patrick Haggerty, Alan Kress. Lil Pumpkinhead, whatever that means. Sarah Black. Jessica Roberson. What? What is it?

[B]

Tiny and orange. It's self explanatory.

[C]

Neil, I imagine. N, I, A, L, L. Is that Neil Gatton? N I, A, L, L. Or is

[B]

that Nail I A or Neal?

[C]

That's Neil, right? I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, it's got or Neal.

[C]

Foreign from America. Anne McGee. That's a. Probably a British person. Going foreign my ass.

[B]

Bollocks.

[C]

Joanne Sega Burke with no last name. Melcoss Az. I don't know what that means. Vanessa o'. Connor, Beth Churchill, Nigel Hanan, Hannon Camby with no last name. Byron Ma, Rhett Reed, Tyler Libby, Kitteny, Sharia, Kelsey. Check. Oh, like the Czech Republic. Jolene Navin, Cindy Gamble. R. This show brought to you by the letter R. Brian Crawford. Hannah Marie Mayer. Pluto with no last name. Chris. Kristen Hawks. Nope, that's Christopher. Holy fuck. Two different people. Jen with no last name. Emily Boyki, Nick. What is this? Rasuski. Lisa Vit, Alec Wakefield. Moosker with no last name. Beth Bed. Beth Goodhue. Adam Hosteller. Huh?

[B]

Hosteller.

[C]

Hot. Stellar. Joss or Jos with no last name. Stephanie P. Olivia Rodriguez, Cody Dilley, Jesse Fowler, Kiertan Kirsten Burke, Chris Carpenter, Zachary McCune, Zachy Atacky, HHR Zanaire with no last name. McLovin with no last name. Becca with no last name. Jake Lee, Jordan Pallanta, Sonia Fiddler. Yep. Fidler, probably Melinda Wheels, Wheel, Lys and Aubrey Shipman. And all of our patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you. Thank you, you fantastic bastards. We appreciate everybody, every goddamn thing you do for us. Thank you, thank you, thank you. If you want to follow us on social media, head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. Drop down. There's menus that take you everywhere to social media, by the way. All new too. We just redid the site. Check all that out. Get some tickets while you're there. Hang out with us and only go there.

[C]

Stop going to third party shits.

[B]

You don't do that.

[C]

We don't. No, don't, don't. We don't charge $800 for a ticket to see our show. That's insane.

[B]

Same any of our shirts. All that, get it at that site and it will be a decent price. So thank you for hanging out with us. Keep coming back and seeing us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad. It's the best tour dates. Yes. Come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 2nd 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets though, to your stupid opinions. On the 21st of March, Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2. May 29, Buffalo, sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30, we have September 18, Milwaukee. September 19, Minneapolis. October 3 in Dallas. October 16 in San Jose. October 17 in Sacramento. November 13 in Terrytown. November 14 in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun. Make some new friends like crazy. And make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut upandgivemerder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

[C]

See you on the road.

[A]

Want to be a star?

[B]

No problem. Anyone can shine on TikTok.

[A]

Post your first video today. Hey, real life, real story, real you. Download TikTok and get started.