Murder In The Neighborhood - Lafayette, California

Summary

Small Town Murder – “Murder in the Neighborhood: Lafayette, California”

Podcast: Small Town Murder
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Episode Release: June 26, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, James and Jimmie delve into the affluent community of Lafayette, California, to explore the 2005 murder of Pamela Vitale—wife of high-profile defense attorney Daniel Horowitz—at the hands of a 16-year-old neighbor, Scott Dyleski. The hosts blend deep research, their trademark irreverent humor, and biting social commentary, unpacking the crime, its bizarre build-up, the ensuing investigation, trial, and lingering public debate over Dyleski’s guilt.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Lafayette, California (04:41 – 12:35)

• Lafayette, CA: Painted as a wealthy Bay Area suburb (median home price: $1.77 million) with an exclusive, almost insulated community vibe.

  • “Ten pounds of murder in a two pound bag.” – James (01:31)
  • Median household income is nearly $100,000, but home prices are astronomical, which becomes a recurring point of satirical banter.

• Community Vibes: The hosts read local reviews, noting the town’s insularity, privilege, and competitiveness among residents.

  • “What are you complaining about? My neighbor's house is bigger than mine.” – James (08:34)

• Annual Event: Wine & Arts Festival draws tens of thousands, highlighting the town’s affluence and outsider curiosity about ‘rich people living.’

2. Introduction to the Crime (12:35 – 21:53)

• Victim & Husband:

  • Pamela Vitale, a Bay Area tech-marketing exec and indie film producer.
  • Daniel Horowitz, a defense attorney and high-profile TV legal analyst, known for coverage of the Scott Peterson and Susan Polk cases.
    • “He always carries a gun too... being a high profile one, he’s got some enemies.” – James (14:31)

• 2005 Setting: Daniel and Pamela living on-site in a trailer while constructing a 7,000 sq ft mansion in Lafayette.

• The Crime:

  • On Saturday, October 15, 2005, Daniel returns to find Pamela’s car in the driveway, blood on the front door, and her body just inside—grievously beaten.
  • Quick summary of Daniel’s alibi: airtight, corroborated by many.

3. The Crime Scene (23:03 – 33:20)

• Brutality:

  • Pamela suffered massive blunt force trauma (at least 26 hits), facial fractures, defensive wounds, and a fatal abdominal stab wound.
  • Unusual "H"-shaped carving on her back, dubbed a “satanic symbol” by the press, likely to confuse or mislead investigators.
  • No evidence of sexual assault or robbery: “No robbery anybody could identify. Nothing missing, nothing rifled, nothing like that.” – James (23:03)
  • The murder weapon was likely a local rock, implying lack of premeditation.

• Physical Evidence:

  • Blood everywhere, bloody shoeprints, gloved handprints, bloody mug (later discussed in defense theories).
  • Extensive forensic trail—gloves, shoes, and mask—would ultimately tie Scott Dyleski to the scene.

4. The Unlikely Suspect: Scott Dyleski (33:36 – 54:17)

• Who is Scott?

  • 16-year-old, artsy, introverted, from a hippie family living hand-to-mouth in a wealthy community.
  • “Imagine if you, like, plucked Damien Echols out of white trash Arkansas, and put him in an affluent area. That's what we have here.” – James (42:46)
  • Had a history of social alienation, tragic family losses, and a recent turn to goth style and interest in dark artwork/serial killers.

• Scott’s Life:

  • Lived with his mother, Esther, in friends’ guest rooms due to poverty. Poor, bullied, and an outcast at school.
  • Low self-esteem and trouble fitting in lead to “stupid teenager” choices: attempts to procure grow lights for weed using stolen credit cards.

• Build-up to the Murder:

  • Caught in a botched credit card fraud scheme targeting neighbors, with clumsy attempts to mask his tracks.
  • Hours before Pamela’s murder, Scott is seen returning home with fresh facial scratches and a suspicious story about falling in the woods.

5. Investigation, Arrest & Forensic Evidence (54:17 – 70:16)

• Investigation Unfolds:

  • Housemates quickly suspect Scott after credit card evidence surfaces.
  • Scott’s own behavior is erratic: changing alibis, admitting to the fraud, offering odd stories about being grabbed by a woman matching Pamela’s description.

• DNA & Physical Evidence:

  • Essential items (gloves, mask, shoes, overcoat, t-shirt) bearing Pamela’s blood and Scott’s DNA discovered in Scott’s bag and the property van.
  • Bloody shoeprints at the scene match Scott’s footwear.
  • “They said that a profile [DNA on mask] expected in roughly 1 in 780 trillion Caucasians.” – James (66:05)

• Destroyed Evidence:

  • Scott’s mother attempts to burn incriminating items, resulting in her being charged as an accessory but later agreeing to testify against Scott.

• Scott’s Written Plans:

  • Sheets of paper found with a chilling list:
    • “1. knockout 2. kidnap 3. question, question 4. keep captive to confirm, pins 5. dirty work, dispose of evidence (cut up, bury)” – discovered during room cleanup (70:14)

6. The Trial (71:39 – 78:22)

• Prosecution Case:

  • Position Scott as a deeply troubled, potentially homicidal youth, drawing on his obsession with gore, serial killers, and violent art.
  • Carving on Pamela’s back linked to symbols found on Scott’s personal bumper sticker (separation of church and “H”ate).

• Defense Case:

  • Portrays Scott as bullied, kind, and incapable of violence—trots out character witnesses (teachers, former Scout leader).
  • Argues DNA is circumstantial, result of contamination, and accuses prosecution of demonizing him for being “weird”.

• Key Moment:

  • Scott’s mom testifies against him, describing burning evidence (76:18).
    • “[She] found shit with the victim's blood on it and threw out, burned a bunch… that's incriminating.” – Jimmie (75:19)

• Outcome:

  • Jury convicts Scott on all counts (first degree murder, burglary, weapons enhancement).
  • Sentenced to life without parole as a juvenile; later eligible for parole in 2030 due to changes in California law.

7. Appeals & Ongoing Doubt (79:09 – 81:47)

• Innocence Arguments:

  • Some advocates (e.g., ex-detective Ralph Fernandez) argue evidence was mishandled, partial DNA matches are dubious, and Scott’s conviction was a rush to judgment.
  • “There is a huge group of people that say he's innocent based on a spot of blood on Pamela's foot. What about all the other blood?” – James (81:23)

• Hosts’ Take:

  • The evidence against Scott is overwhelming—DNA, self-incriminating statements, behavior, and physical evidence.
  • Dismiss comparisons to other high-profile wrongful conviction cases like the West Memphis Three.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wealth in Lafayette:

  • “If you have 1.8 million dollar houses, I guess you go, ‘everything is great.’” – James (09:03)

• On Guilt and Evidence:

  • “Why does he have her blood if he never met her?...That’s unexplainable.” – Jimmie (81:38)
  • “You, young man, may fuck off. Maximum sentence, life in prison without the possibility of parole.” – James, delivering the judge’s tone (78:23)

• On Scott’s Meltdown:

  • “He’s such an idiot. It’s almost like he's 16, right?” – James (64:30)

• On the Carved ‘H’:

  • “Not a Zorro here, but two horizontal cuts about four inches long crossed by a four and a half inch vertical cut forming an H shape.” – James (25:58)

• On the Outlandish Defense:

  • “Guns don't kill people, I kill people.” – Scott’s artwork, quoted by James (44:38)

• On Girlfriend’s Perks:

  • “If you have a girlfriend of any stripe...you're immediately in this tier, you're above that tier.” – James (56:46)
  • “Stay out all night.” – Jimmie, mocking lax parenting (57:56)

---

Key Timestamps

• Lafayette Background & Laughs: 04:41–12:35
• Victim/Husband Introduction & Crime Discovery: 12:35–23:03
• Crime Scene Forensics: 23:03–33:20
• Suspect Background (Dyleski): 33:36–54:17
• Physical Evidence & Investigation: 54:17–70:16
• Trial Coverage: 71:39–78:22
• Appeals & The Debate: 79:09–81:47

---

Summary

James and Jimmie dissect one of Lafayette’s darkest chapters with equal parts empathy for the victim, scalding sarcasm about the town’s privilege, and exasperation at the clumsy, tragic ambitions of the teenage killer. The episode is an incisive, entertaining look at what happens when ‘affluenza’ and alienation intersect with violence, and how a thoroughly documented crime still spurs fierce debate about guilt, adolescent psychology, and justice.

The verdict in the kitchen is clear: the evidence points squarely at Scott Dyleski, and any doubts are more a reflection of his defenders’ philosophical hang-ups than the facts of the case.

---

For true crime fans and newcomers alike, this episode offers a compelling listen—in equal measure thoughtful, irreverent, and darkly funny.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.

[James Pietragallo]

A burst pipe, a dead water heater, the AC calling it quits.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who do you call?

[James Pietragallo]

HomeServe is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe. Right now go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast. Savings compared to renewal price void in Florida.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Foreign.

[James Pietragallo]

Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yay and choo choo.

[James Pietragallo]

Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co host, Jimmy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Pietragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder Express. And this one, oh boy, it fits the bill perfectly. It's nuts.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

It's wild.

[James Pietragallo]

Ten pounds of murder in a two pound bag. We'll get into all that and more very quickly though. Top of the show here, shut upandgivemerder.com is where you go get all your tickets there. First of all, tons of new merch there too, so check that out. But tickets, tickets, tickets. September 18, Pabst 3 Theater, Milwaukee. Not a lot of tickets left for that. So if you want to go to that show, go ahead and get your tickets now. Then the next night, State theater in Minneapolis. Get your tickets for that. September 19th. Get those now. Milwaukee's currently beating you. Minneapolis. I know you don't care for that. I know you don't want Wisconsin to beat you at anything. So let's up the game there. And then we have Dallas on October 3rd and then later on in October, San Jose, Sacramento, and then November, Tarrytown, Boston. So that's shut upandgivemerder.com where you get all that stuff and more. Also listen to our other two shows, crime and Sports. We have a long series going on about the Yahweh Ben Yahweh cult and all their many, many murders. And that's crazy. And then your stupid opinions come on. You gotta hear that. You gotta hear, it's so funny. It's just hilarious. Then get yourself Patreon. Everybody. Do a favor for yourself. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. All you have to be is $5 a month or above and you get every dollar damn second of every ounce.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Every second.

[James Pietragallo]

Every ounce. Yeah. We like to measure our output and weight is how we like to do it. Volume, volume, Pure volume. So do we do water displacement tests really, to make it perfect? So patreon.com crimeinsports$5 a month or above. You get everything we put out, including, as soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back bonus episodes you've never heard before. New ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And you get them all, baby.

[Jimmy Whisman]

May as well.

[James Pietragallo]

This week what you get here is for crime and sports, we're gonna do Hostage Situations Part 2. Because the first one was just so damn fun. We were like, okay, we need more. And we had another show's worth on our notes. So we said, let's do that. Then for small town murder, it's prisoner dating game time. Everybody. Need we say more? It's prisoner dating game time. You know you want to sign up for that. Four bachelorettes, four bachelors. I line them up for Jimmy. The only thing they have in common is they're all incarcerated, violent felons for

[Jimmy Whisman]

a very long time.

[James Pietragallo]

He gets to pick it based on just what they say about themselves, and then he gets to find out what they did afterwards and if he made a terrible choice. So it's a crazy, crazy show. And good times. Patreon.com crimeinsports get every pound that we put out right there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You bet.

[James Pietragallo]

Right there. And also you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. And you get all the shows we put out. Crime and sports. Your stupid opinion. Small town murder, all ad free.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ad free.

[James Pietragallo]

Can't beat it. That said, I think it's time, everybody, let's do this. Let's all sit back, clear the lungs here. What do you say? Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

We're going to California this week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Lovely California.

[James Pietragallo]

Northern California. Love Northern California. That's my favorite up there in the bay area, like Carmel and all that. It's real nice. This is Lafayette, California.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure. Well, the Bay area north and west. You don't want to go northeast.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no. Then you end up in the middle of nowhere.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. North coast, fine.

[James Pietragallo]

In the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Let's stay close to the water is what I'm saying. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't get too inland.

[James Pietragallo]

You don't want to do that. So Northern California, by. Where we will be, by the way, in October on the 16th and 17th in San Jose and Sacramento. So get your tick for [e-mail], but Northern California, it's about 35 minutes to San Francisco, about 3 hours and 15 minutes over to Reno, and 4 hours to Springville, California. Our last episode there, which was episode 667, the most interesting Murderer in the World. Remember, he had all his. That was a wild one, man. That guy was nuts. This is in Contra Costa county, which is very hard to. That's very Contra Costa county. Area code 925. Population here, only 25,000, 384. So it's small to be outside of the major cities that close to it. 35 minutes. Mainly because it's expensive as we'll get into here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of course it is.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. Median household income here, 97,946, which is about 30 grand above the national average, but nowhere near what you'd need to deal with this house cost here. This is insane. Median home cost here, $1,767,400. Median. That's the median.

[Jimmy Whisman]

One and three quarters.

[James Pietragallo]

Holy crap. That's balls.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, a little bit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The country is about a million three short of that.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, no shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

So history. It was named after the Marquis de Lafayette, who was a French military officer of the American Revolutionary War, because they were on our side, because they've been hating Britain since the beginning of time. So the name Lafayette came together with the community's first post office. In 1857, the owner and manager of a hotel and general store applied for a post office for the community. At first he wanted to call it Centerville, and then they told him, there's already a Centerville in California.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Of course there is.

[James Pietragallo]

Can't have that. Yeah. What do you think you're the first one who thought of that? You're not even in the center of anything. Makes no sense.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do you want to call it the street that goes right up the middle? Do you want to call that Main Street?

[James Pietragallo]

Main Street. Is this an outside the box idea that you have this little theory? So he suggested Lafayette, and they said, yeah, right, fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's one in Louisiana, but all right, that's fine.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, his wife was from Lafayette, Indiana.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay. And there's one in Indiana.

[James Pietragallo]

There's one in Indiana too. They went back and forth with the spelling. In 1857, it was Lafayette, but one word, but with a capital F. Okay. Then in 1864, it was Lafayette. One word, lowercase F. Lowercase. Then a little bit later, by 1890, it was Lafayette. Officially changed. Oh, I'm sorry. Before that, they made it two words, Lafayette. Then they changed it back to Lafayette. Then by 1905, it was back to two words again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Good Lord.

[James Pietragallo]

And then finally in 1932, the post office was officially changed to one word, Lafayette, lowercase f. And that's what it's remained for the last hundred years or so. So reviews of this town. It has 4.2 stars on niche, which. Not bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's pretty good.

[James Pietragallo]

There's nothing under three stars. It's all three, four or five. So here's the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's all wealthy people that are happy.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. What are you complaining about? My neighbor's house is bigger than mine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My house cost me a little bit more than I want.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Other than that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With that comes some benefits. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Here's five stars. Lafayette is very good. I like every part of it. I love the schools and lifestyle of everything. Everything is great. We've never had that in a review before.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's very Legos.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Everything is wonderful.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything is awesome.

[James Pietragallo]

When you have 1.8 million dollar houses, I guess you go, everything is great. We can all afford to live in fucking $1.8 million houses.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We're all paying for 1.8 million. Do our houses every day.

[James Pietragallo]

We're doing great, doing fantastic. Here's three stars. We'll do this one quick here. I've never lived in Lafayette, but I went to school in that city since I was 7 years old. Being Caucasian in such a white rich community was tough at times.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What? I'm dying at times.

[James Pietragallo]

The only reason I put this review in here is because I don't understand. Being white in a community of rich white people was tough at times. Oh, I know it must have been brutal for you. Blending in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, blending in and all that. Lack of seasoning.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No diarrhea.

[James Pietragallo]

Just all solid, very plain, boneless, skinless chicken breasts. Yes. I made a few friends in my grade school through high school years, but overall, people are not as welcoming and open to outsiders and newcomers. Especially if you don't live there. Yeah, that's how rich neighborhoods are.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, this guy was looking for some ethnicity, it looks like.

[James Pietragallo]

Wanted some culture, just wanted something here. Academics are excellent, but extracurric have Their flaws. A lot of favoritism, Too much pressure within the children. Parents tend to be too competitive and hard on their children. Yeah, it's rich people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A lot of sailing clubs.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

This person's like slums of Beverly Hills over here, just on the border of the school district to go to a good school. And they know that he's not one of them. That's what it is. Things to do here. Okay. The Lafayette Wine and Arts Festival.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Pietragallo]

And over in last year, 2025, over 75,000 people were there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

Over the course of the few days

[Jimmy Whisman]

that it goes on, everybody's fascinated with how rich people live.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I mean, it's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We all want to see it.

[James Pietragallo]

And this is like, you know, local food and micro brews and wine and all that kind of shit like that. Sounds like a fun day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's why we put up with Robin Leach's horrible accent. Just to see how fucking Oprah grills steaks.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Just. Yeah, we put up with that. What is that, Australian English. It's in between. It's a mess.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't even know what it's like. It's an abrasive English. Yeah, it's very.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, I'm Robin Leach. She's like, fuck you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It was very throaty.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Oh, I'm Robin Leach. She was. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This house costs $3 billion.

[James Pietragallo]

This house should make you feel like a loser. You feel like a. You limp dick fuck. Look at this house. That's a real man lives there. You punk. You fucking punk.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gargle some salt. Robin, calm down.

[James Pietragallo]

There's also music. You get Jimbo Scott and Yesterday's Biscuits. That's a band.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a good name, Chip. Music. I'm sure.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm sure. The Bell Brothers Band. You get Midnight Fire, who was really mad that Midnight Rider was already taken by the Allman Brothers and really upset.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Or Midnight Oil.

[James Pietragallo]

East Bay. Or Midnight Oil.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They're like, damn it. It's all taken. East bay mud with two Ds, charged particles. So ions, basically. Freestone peaches. The big jangle.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Maybe my favorite name of all time. Lonesome Eddie and the Saddle Sores.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And the Saddle Sores. Sores.

[James Pietragallo]

S O R E S. He's got saddle sores.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Poor Eddie and his fucking blistered ass.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, poor Eddie. You poor bastard. So that said, let's talk about some murder here. What do you say?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay, we got a wild case here. Let's start out in 1994, and then we'll work our way up because the whole murder thing happens a little bit later. 2005. Ish. So let's start out with a man, an East Bay lawyer. Daniel Horowitz is his name. Okay. East Bay criminal defense attorney.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Pietragallo]

And always on TV as a like talking head legal analyst. He's one of those guys, he's like

[Jimmy Whisman]

talking about the case and defending the person that's on trial or like giving an analysis.

[James Pietragallo]

Analysis, yeah. If Nancy Grace is talking about Casey Anthony, he'll come on and talk about the legalities of it and how you defend it and that kind of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Talk about how sometimes if you hit a raccoon, it makes your trunk stink.

[James Pietragallo]

That's right. And Henry Hill. I hit a raccoon, Karen. All right. I hit a skunk, Karen. All right. So it's not a raccoon, but he could have made it a raccoon. So he defended murderers, drug dealers, you know, criminal defense attorney.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Isn't that what she said she hit with that fucking sunfire?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes, yes. She said she hit a raccoon. Yeah. I just brought it back to Henry Hill. Cause I always do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was just making sure I was

[James Pietragallo]

on the right path, you know, you had it right. You had it right for her. Now this. He became real big during the Scott Peterson trial. Cause that happened in the Bay Area right there. He's a Bay Area defense attorney. Nancy Grace loves him. He's on the show all the time with her. And he's also. Poor bastard. And he's also a regular with Dan Abrams, who I actually think is pretty good. He does a good job. He's the Live PD guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a little. He's a little pompous, but he's good.

[James Pietragallo]

But he's been doing a lot for like, you see old clips and you're like, is that fucking Dan Abrams? How long has he been around? Cause he looks like Sarah has the best nickname.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not young at all. No, that's an old man.

[James Pietragallo]

And the way he dresses. Sarah calls him a haunted ventriloquism puppet. She calls him a haunted puppet. And I'm like, that's exactly what he looks like, A haunted puppet. That's perfect.

[Jimmy Whisman]

His face looks very plastic.

[James Pietragallo]

It really does.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Smooth.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Like a ventriloquist dummy. So he is. He's very theatrical, very egotistic. He's a defense attorney. A big time defense attorney. Those guys happen. Usually have a little swagger to them. Sure. He always carries a gun too. Because being a defense attorney and a high profile one, he's got some enemies. And also Just people. Not even if you don't win. If you do win, then there's a lot of people mad at you. Want to kill you for getting somebody off. In 1994, he's shopping a screenplay around, which is strange. This is before he was on TV as a lawyer all the time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

True story one.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. I'm not sure. Screenplay. I just picture the Warden from Arrested Development. James Lipton there, pitching a screenplay all the time, but that's what he's doing. And he's down in Hollywood trying to pitch his screenplay. And he meets a lady down there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

A lady that he really likes. About the same age as him. Here. This is Pamela Vitale. V I T A L E. She is born about 1953. So when they meet, she's about 40 and so is he. About the same age. She is a marketing executive for tech company type things in the Bay Area.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jet gal.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, no, she's. Yeah, she's not a. She's not somebody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not a Hollywood gal.

[James Pietragallo]

Not a Hollywood party girl. Not looking for some lawyer, screenwriter. She doesn't need that shit. She's got her own shit. She produces independent films as well. She's got like money and interest in that sort of thing. And gets into a lot of projects. One of her friends said, Pamela is just the sweetest, nicest, most selfless woman you'd ever want to know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How about it?

[James Pietragallo]

And she's got two kids from a previous relationship, Marissa and Mario. Something tells me she was married to an Italian guy. That's where Vitale came from.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On her own. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

I know a couple Vitales growing up. Big fat guineas. So that's how it works.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mario Vitale does not sound anything but.

[James Pietragallo]

No, you're. Or Marissa too. Marissa Vitale is like, holy shit. So, yeah, she has two previous kids. Daniel's fine with that. They're almost grown at this point anyway. And they'll be out of the house soon. So they get together in 1994 and hook up. Or I think 93. They get together. By 1994, they're married to each other.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How about it?

[James Pietragallo]

They're both from the Bay Area. Why not? High powered couple is what they are. She does her thing, he does his thing. By 2005, she is managing databases at his law practice. And her main project, and both of their main projects is a house that they're building.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell yeah. Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Nightmare. Oh, man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, just building it, not remodeling it. Building.

[James Pietragallo]

Redo one room in your house and have a divorce lawyer on fucking. Yeah. Not Even the kitchen. Redo the half bath. That's somewhere. Redo that and you'll kill each other. It's horrible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Redo the closet in the room that has no water. There's no plumbing.

[James Pietragallo]

No plumbing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Redo the closet and see. Strangle that bitch and see if that asshole doesn't make you want to put a.38 to his head.

[James Pietragallo]

Not even an outlet in the closet? No.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No electricity.

[James Pietragallo]

One overhead and that's it. So how about they're building a 7,000 square foot house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's so much house.

[James Pietragallo]

That's so much house. 7,000 square foot house overlooking a canyon in Lafayette. They're doing great. And it's like an exclusive area of Lafayette. Like they are killing it money wise. In the fall of 2005 here though, they were, I guess for a little while they were living in a trailer on the property while it was being built.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

They were living as like a manufactured home here. And it was parked right there at the property. This is on Hunsaker Hunsacker Canyon Road. And it's big trees and rocks and it's beautiful. By fall of 2005, Daniel has a high profile trial. A woman named Susan Polk. Have you ever heard of her? P O L K. No. She was in Orinda, California. She was a housewife accused of stabbing her psychotherapist husband to death in 2002. Holy. Yeah. Which is interesting.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I can't imagine that relationship goes very easily either.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, the guy deserves something. Not saying he deserves to be stabbed, but they met when she was 14 years old and was sent to him as a patient because she had panic attacks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't like that at all.

[James Pietragallo]

A, 14. Even if they met in any other circumstance. Not okay. And B, a therapist should never go out with their patient ever. Even 20 years later. You don't do that. It's not ethical at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That feels very grooming. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

That's the most grooming relationship of all time. Totally.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Especially since she was so young.

[James Pietragallo]

She's 14 and completely under his care. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's gonna stabulate her for this.

[James Pietragallo]

Poof. You have to trust a therapist, you know?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. So.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And also, if she. If she is like lashed out in a fit of psychosis, he should have known. That's your job, man.

[James Pietragallo]

He didn't do a very good fucking job fixing her up. Terrible, terrible, terrible therapist. She was still there. So you're a pervert and a bad therapist. So I don't know. And now he's dead. He was stabbed 27 times.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck, that's a lot.

[James Pietragallo]

She claims self defense. The prosecution called it premeditated murder for the estate. And it turned into a big giant mess, obviously. And Daniel Horowitz is the guy retained by Susan Polk to defend her. It's a big high profile case. So Saturday, October 15, 2005. Daniel, he's been doing this for weeks. He's in the middle of this case. He leaves the trailer that they're living in at 8am Pamela's still asleep. He gets up, he meets with his team, the legal team. He runs some errands, he goes to the gym, he picks up some groceries, has a day. Basically. He keeps trying to call Pamela during the day, but she's not picking up the phone. So he said, oh, who knows? She's going to a ballet that evening. She's probably busy, I don't know. They're both busy people, so if they play phone tag, not a big deal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got a lot of shit going on.

[James Pietragallo]

So 6pm, Daniel pulls into the driveway and long day. He's got groceries and his computer bag. But the first thing he sees is Pamela's white Mercedes is still in the driveway. And she's supposed to be at the ballet right now. Like definitely gone on the way to the ballet. So he carries the groceries and the computer to the front door. And it's closed. And he sees smears on it of what look like blood.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh oh.

[James Pietragallo]

And he's like, what the fuck? Later on he described. He said he knew in that instant that something was really wrong. Duh. If I see blood anywhere on the outside of my house, smears of it, yeah. I'm assuming there's a problem. You know, I would think I called the police.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cause there was blood droplets on my grandfather's patio and nobody was home. The cops showed up and my uncle came home, he had a nosebleed. Well, thank God.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm glad for that. Good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm glad you're a cokehead.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that's good. I'm glad you're just a goddamn mess with horrible nasal passages. So he said, he opened the door, Pam. He sees Pam lying just inside the entryway. And he said there's so much blood, he knew immediately she was dead. And he says, he claims he dropped everything, collapsed to the floor and screamed. Now neighbors said they heard screaming around 6pm so that lines up. He calls 911 from the house and then he goes back to her body. Now this is one of the things he said. He said this to Dan Abrams on msnbc. He said, quote, he said that he touched her temple, he said, to see if she was alive. Even though he knew she was dead. He said he told her a million things. He screamed, he cried, and he told her he loved her. And the problem is, he didn't really call 911 properly. That's the issue.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How'd he do it?

[James Pietragallo]

He should have been telling them some shit and not her. Well, he started the. This is a weird thing, and I don't know how true this is, but they say that this is by some account. So I don't even know if this is a fact or not. He started the 911 call, threw the phone down, and then shortly after, dialed the regular police phone number. Non emergency, Non emergency. Now, not sure if that's true or not or what. We don't know. That's just been brought up later. Later and everything. Now. Police respond. Counter Costa. Sheriff's deputies respond here. A spokesman said yes, a woman's body was found in the entryway. It was a homicide. And there's no suspects in custody. Basically, is what they tell the world inside the house, Pamela. No sexual assault. Number one. No robbery anybody could identify. Nothing missing, nothing rifled, nothing like that. The autopsy is insane. What this poor woman went through, this is horrific. She died of blunt force trauma to the head.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A beating?

[James Pietragallo]

Well, among other things. They counted at least eight distinct injuries on the right side of her head. Eleven on the back and seven on the left side of her head. This is obliterated. And he said the count was probably low because a lot of the wounds overlapped and it's probably less than that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Probably gonna hit in the same spot from time to time.

[James Pietragallo]

Totally. Also a broken nose. Two teeth knocked loose from her upper jaw. Defensive fractures to her left hand so bad that the bone is exposed. Yeah, that's wild. Bruising on her right foot consistent with trying to kick or trying to kick somebody away. They believe the weapon was a smaller, irregular, hard object like a rock. Now, in Hunsacker Canyon, where they are, it's the site of an old quarry, and it's nothing but rocks outside. So it fits perfectly with a rock. Which is not a real great planned murder weapon to use.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Pietragallo]

Especially if you just grab a rock.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's clearly the target. Was to kill her. And if your idea is to show up to a house and kill a woman and you brought nothing.

[James Pietragallo]

Brought a rock with you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Picked up a rock as I walked in.

[James Pietragallo]

That'll do. Put it in your pocket.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's a terrible hitman or whatever

[James Pietragallo]

that's A bad murderer. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And now her back is the really disturbing shit. There are three intersecting superficial incisions. So someone carved in her back. Essentially we have not a Zorro here, but two horizontal cuts about four inches long crossed by a four and a half inch vertical cut forming an H shape.

[Jimmy Whisman]

H. Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay. Now they said this was made while she was alive.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yikes.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. There's also a deep stab wound to the abdomen that penetrated her stomach and bowel inflicted right around the time of death.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Now they called the, the, the, the H or whatever the signal was. They, the press called it a satanic symbol, calling it a cross of Lorraine. That's what they call them, Horowitz. A gothic carving. Yeah. Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to sleep with Casper.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Casper.com.

[James Pietragallo]

oh, you know what I'm telling you, everybody's looking for a new hobby and I think sleep is my favorite hobby.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's the one.

[James Pietragallo]

It's the one. It gives you everything you need. It really does. And the thing is, a great mattress will make you a pro sleeper. Pro level, elite sleeper. You can do it. And yeah. This podcast is sponsored by Casper. Casper makes reliable, high quality mattresses designed to deliver consistent, comfortable sleep night after night. Casper's mattresses are highly rated by Consumer Reports and out of 99 mattresses, Consumer Reports named Casper's The1 Mattress as their top rated all foam mattress of 2026. If you're in the market for a new mattress or an upgrade on a Mattress, head to Casper.com and save up to 30% on the mattress. You deserve. That's the thing, you deserve it. Casper's they're amazing. They're durable, they're long lasting. So you're not replacing your mattress every few years when you get a Casper because it's good stuff. Their products are designed to withstand the test of time, maintaining support and comfort over the long haul. And nothing to lose here because Casper has their 100 night risk free trial. So you can give Casper's mattresses a risk free try. Although with 110,000 plus five star reviews, we're pretty sure you're going to like it. That's there. I'm telling you, I love my Casper mattress. I sleep great on it. And I noticed a huge difference from the last mattress I had to the Casper. I mean, it was like, oh man, my sleep is better. I'm not waking up as much. So that's the big thing. I think I'm sleeping deeper, which is huge. That's how you can restore yourself. Casper has a wide range of mattress types. A huge range of them. So whether you like it firm, soft or somewhere in between, there's something for [e-mail] plus they just launched a brand new kids mattress. So even the youngest sleepers in your family can get the same comfort and quality that you do. It's amazing. Nothing to lose. Get in there and get yourself some quality sleep right now. Save up to 30% on mattresses and up to 35% on everything else. When you go to Casper.com one last time. That's C A S P E R dot com and save up to 30% on the mattress you deserve.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about the best security you could possibly have. SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

SimpliSafe.com S I M P L I Safe.com Absolutely.

[James Pietragallo]

In the United States there's a break in every 26 seconds. That means over the course of this ad like 3, 4 break ins will happen. That's a lot of break ins. And if you've listened to this show that you're listening to right now, small town murder. You know what can happen when a break in happens? Bad things. So the problem here is most security systems only alert you after the break ins already started. Which you know by this show is way too late.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Way too late.

[James Pietragallo]

Way too. Half your family could be murdered by then. That's why we chose Simplisafe to secure our homes and businesses and everything else. Simplisafe makes us feel good and secure and have peace of mind. Using safe. That's the thing. Using the Outdoor Camera Series 2 and advanced AI alerts, SimpliSafe's US based live agents identify threats on your property and help deter them. Stopping crime before it starts. That's peace of mind. Literally. They come up and they're like, get out of here. We're calling the cops. Cops will be there in two minutes. People run away. It's what it is. Telling you it's so good. We use it for everything that we have. Homes, offices. If I had anything else to put it on, I would. It's so good. I bought it as gifts for people that want home security. It's so good. Simplisafe has been a real game changer for us and we love it, I'm telling you. And there's no long term contracts. That's a huge thing. It's so important that you're not locked in you don't want to be locked in in case your life needs change, maybe, you know, whatever. Simplisafe gets it. That means Simplisafe has to earn your business every day, and they don't mind doing that. And also, you know, you think about this, and I see so many shows we do where I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so glad we have Simplisafe, because this is. This could happen to us. You know what I mean? And it's so inexpensive, too. The monitoring and deterrence plan started around a dollar a day. A dollar a day to secure your family, your home, your things, your pets, everything. It's ridiculous. And setting it up is so easy. I can't put together Ikea furniture, and I can install a Simplisafe system. It's excellent. And we want you to do it, too. We want you to experience the same peace of mind we do, which is why we've partnered with Simplisafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now, you can get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com that's half [e-mail] small. There's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

So that's what they called it. Now, physical evidence. There's blood fucking everywhere, as you can imagine. Walls, floor, everywhere. There's an overturned plastic storage bin lid by the front door. And on top of that, a shoe print in blood. A fabric print on the bin is consistent with a gloved hand. I think someone was wearing gloves. Blood smears on the inside of the door consistent with someone in a long sleeved garment. But Pam had a short. Pamela had a short sleeved T shirt on, meaning the long sleeves must have belonged to whoever killed her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Somebody covered themselves up in long sleeves and gloves.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, absolutely. They're landscaping or murdering one of the two. Finger marks in blood all over the room with fine linear striations. Fabric, not fingerprints. Consistent with gloves worn throughout. A heavy flashlight near the entryway, covered in blood. Pieces of molding with blood on them. Possibly used to beat her with, but not the murder weapon. Just other things. In the kitchen, there's an open water bottle and a bowl, both with blood on them. There's a mug with blood on it. In the sink. In the bathroom, there's a hand swipe of blood on the far wall. Contact transfers on the shower curtain and hot water knob. But no sign that anybody ran the shower because the smears would have washed away. Right, so this is a Lot. This is a scene, man. I mean, there's fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They went in the bathroom to do something, but their hands were. The gloves had too much blood and they couldn't operate the knob or something.

[James Pietragallo]

They couldn't do it. Or maybe that. Or they can't figure that out quite of what's going on. Maybe they went in there and thought about it and then said, I should probably get out of here first before I start.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I should probably just leave.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, maybe one of those. Now, there is a police consultant that NBC uses and he said this beating implies something very personal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they're mad. Oh, boy, are they pissed.

[James Pietragallo]

Doing a lot of shit. And the carving in the back would be what, to throw somebody off the scent or something like that now. So they go, okay, what did Pam do this day? So they go back and it's 2005. So you can forensically look at a lot of digital footprints here. And she was doing real boring shit. She went on her laptop at 8:07. She got on her laptop and she's just dicking around. She surfed genealogy websites.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, really?

[James Pietragallo]

Check out if I got a new cousin that popped up on ancestry news sites. You know, current events, just shit like that. Also, even just normal shit, she used her computer, just basically was on it for about two hours. And the last keystroke is logged at 10:12am okay. Now, first thing the cops think is exactly what you said. What are you thinking here?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, somebody showed up to do something really terrible, but they are very. But they brought a knife.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, but she's the target for sure. Yeah. Well, the first thing everybody says, cops and everybody else is the husband. Yeah, let's look at him because that's just more likely.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's just slam dunk.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So he basically the first place you look. Is there. So problem is, he's got stone cold alibis all day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he's been gone all day.

[James Pietragallo]

Friends, coworkers. He's been with people working the case since 8 o' clock in the morning. So there's no. I mean, besides going to the gym and going to get groceries, which he's accounted for in both of those places. He did go to the gym and he did get groceries. So he's pretty booked up that day. So Sunday, October 16, there is an association meeting of all the people who live on this road. This is the day after the murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, the HOA meeting?

[James Pietragallo]

Sort of, yeah. An unofficial hoa. Now, there's a woman named Karen Schneider who called the meeting. She had reported the day before Pamela Died. She had reported some credit card fraud to the Lafayette police and called a meeting of the association so she could warn the neighbors about the fraud. You think they go, we have bigger shit to worry about now. Fuck fraud.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, but somebody went to Target on me.

[James Pietragallo]

This is crazy. Yeah, somebody's ordering a makeup re up on me. This isn't right. I don't like it. So there are multiple people there. There are Fred and Kim Curiel, who will come up in this, and also a woman named Esther Fielding. They all live in the same house and we'll talk about that. Now, the neighbors talked about the murder. They're like, fuck your fraud. This is a murder that happened on this little street and they're speculating about who did it. Now, near the end, Esther Fielding yells at Karen Schneider for not taking responsibility for running over a dog. All right, okay. So she had ran over a dog recently. It was Esther Fielding's son's dog, as we'll talk about. Okay, now they said what she did. Schneider pulls out faxed order forms. This is where the fraud came from. She pointed out that the orders used the Horowitz's address, used Pamela and Daniel's address and appeared to have been placed by somebody else, but had it delivered there and then picked it up. So Esther Fielding and Fred Keriel looked and they were trying to figure out basically on the papers of the order forms, Esther Fielding's name is on them. On Karen Schneider's credit card thing, an ordered to Horowitz house. Yes, and ordered it to the Horowitz house. So she said that the orders used the Horowitz address and appeared to have been placed by Esther Fielding. But they said, no, that's crazy. Now, Fred Curiel is a computer consultant by trade. So he gets home and he said, I'm inspecting every computer in the fucking house. If it came from here. Okay, including Esther Fielding's 16 year old son, Scott's computer as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The kid with the dead dog.

[James Pietragallo]

The kid with the dead dog. Him. Scott and his mom Esther have been living with the Curiels because they're kind of have some hard times. So they've been living for a couple years with the Curiels.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hard times. Living in paradise.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, well, before that it was shitty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'd never leave either.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, well, hard times before they got there. Now it's fine. But the browser history on Scott's computer had been cleaned, wiped out. But this guy's a computer guy, he knows how to find it anyway. So they find files that show Scott's computer had been used to access a specialty lighting website where the fraudulent orders were placed. So they're like, oh, that's why Scott's the one who did it. He's scamming. So let's find out who Scott is here. Scott Edgar. Edgar is your middle name. Dyleski D Y L E S K I. He's born October 30, 1988 from San Francisco. His parents are Kenneth and Esther. Kenneth Dilewsky and Esther Fielding. They split up when he was 2. And Scott was basically only raised by his mother here, basically to run down his parents. Esther's like a kind of a. I mean, she's way late for it, but she was like a wannabe Haight Ashbury hippie type. Oh, wanna be like real hippie type. But well, after that was done in

[Jimmy Whisman]

the 80s, she showed up around 82.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what I mean. Yeah, it was strange. Ken was a draft dodger and had a master's in psychology who believed that the government kept a file on him and liked to tell people that he personally helped stop the Vietnam War. Good job. Good job, Ken.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He should have done it earlier. You fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

It's crazy. He was a real obsessive crazy guy. Like, he did a lot of weird shit, according to his ex wife, anyway. Repetitive weird rituals, strange things with food. Like he was a weird guy. He paid $400 a month for child support and basically wanted nothing to do with Scott is what the mother said. So they moved to Lafayette here around 1999 when they moved in with their old friends Fred and Kim Kiriel. And yeah, so that's how it went here. And they live on the same street as Pamela and Daniel. And they did the same thing too. They moved in, lived in a trailer while the house was built and all that shit. Now the school Scott goes to here is a big affluent school. Obviously in this area.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's going to be one of those kids in the white community that does not fit in.

[James Pietragallo]

The Caucasian that doesn't fit into the white community.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, he's Caucasian, not white.

[James Pietragallo]

He's Caucasian. The guy said, yeah, he's not white. So he doesn't fit in well with. There's not a lot of kids that are like poor who live in somebody's, you know, guest rooms. Like, that's not really how it works.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Late teen Ward somebody.

[James Pietragallo]

And like he came from like basic. He did normal kid shit. He played Little League, he was in Boy Scouts, you know, he's big into animal rights. He went out and Hung animal rights flyers at the mall with a girl from school. Don't know if he was into animal rights or he was just like, this chick asked him. He's like, sure, I'll do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This hot chick's into animal rights.

[James Pietragallo]

If you're 14, you will be into any cause some hot chick is into, you do not get. What is it? Animal rights? Yeah, great, fine. We'll go for a steak afterwards. Sounds good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's register them to vote. That's how hard I believe it is.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. I want them to have the right man. So. August 2002, Scott's half sister was killed in a car accident.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

A passenger in a crash. She was a passenger in a crash. It also killed the driver.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, that was his dad's daughter. He only saw her when he visited his dad. So they weren't close. Close, but it was still his half sister, still blood. It freaked him out, too. When. When you're young and someone your age dies, it freaks you out because you don't think it's possible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Especially when they die of things like, I mean, sudden. Yeah, the sickness thing where they, like, hang around a while and then they

[James Pietragallo]

die for eight years or something. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's fucked up. And everybody feels bad for them. But the blink where you saw them on Friday and Monday, they don't come to school. That's fucked up.

[James Pietragallo]

It's fucked up. So at her funeral, after the funeral, Scott basically turned into a goth kid. Started wearing all black and weird. You know, the goth look. Fucking makeup and black nail polish and black lipstick and weird hats and shit. He had good grades before. Then all of a sudden he's got D's and F's. And his mother said that he was quite sullen is what he said, or. I'm sorry, Kim Kiriel said that. He's also a little guy in high school, which doesn't help either. He's 56 and 110 pound.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Couldn't be more seen.

[James Pietragallo]

He's also poor in a rich town, so he is. Imagine if you, like, plucked Damien Echols out of white trash, Arkansas, and put him in an affluent area. That's what we have here, basically.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dirt head at some expensive school in New York City.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep. And he's a smart kid. He's very artistic, but that doesn't really get you anything in the rich crowd like that. He became a vegan during this time, too. He also. He got real into nine, 11 conspiracies. Because it's 2005, so, I mean, that's People that was hot at that time. He said that, you know, obviously he thought the government attacked the buildings himself and. Yeah, so people didn't like that. So they, they were, you know, they. People were not. They weren't real drawn to him in high school, let's just say not a big fan club. Yeah. People said that he was just kind of trying to get attention. People thought maybe because he couldn't get attention in the traditional high school ways of being athletic or popular or handsome or he was just kind of. So he's got to try to get. And that's what you do. You come up with a thing, right.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The popular kid at school is the guy that has everything. And here to have everything, you have to have everything.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what I mean. You could live in a $1.5 million house and people still think you're a loser here and you're a poor kid.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Poor piece of shit.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, and people said he was a nice guy, but some of the uppity kids were pretty freaked out about him. He had a lot of artwork as we'll talk about some of it. One was titled Live for the Kill with the words Style Gothic and hate underneath it. There were drawings of a man holding a severed head and a bloody knife. There was a face with a mouth stitched shut with X's. Just creepy, weird kid shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You give a kid a 16 year old a pencil and tell him draw things and don't stop, just draw all day. He's going to draw that exact same thing.

[James Pietragallo]

Weird shit. A razor blade, a swastika and a knife. I don't think I'd draw the swastika. I don't think I draw those. I draw the line there. And it one said guns don't kill people, I kill people. And then another one, it's like a picture of serial killers. And it said before Manson, before Bundy, there was gain, there was Gein. Sorry, so that's true. He's got it right. At least he's got his timeline down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He knows chronology.

[James Pietragallo]

He knows the chronology of murders. Excellent work. So 2002, 2003 is when Fred and Kim Curiel build a new house in this neighborhood. And until it was finished in April 2003, Scott and Esther lived in a plywood lean to fuck. Just they put up literally like, like shantytown, Hooverville shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They used the scraps and made a place.

[James Pietragallo]

It just made a shelter of some kind here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shit.

[James Pietragallo]

They built it quote, to keep the weather off them, right? There's no electricity in there. There's no plumbing. They use a porta Potty full time. That's crazy. No. Anything else here? Scott that maybe showered once a week, usually at his friend's house in Concord. So now he's small, skinny, poor and stinky. All the ladies are going to swarm to him at school here. So he'd get up at 4am to work at a deli before school for a couple hours, and then he'd go to work. This is not a good life for a kid. His father called Child Protective Services twice. Once in 1994 for general neglect, years ago when he was six, and then in 1995 for emotional abuse. According to the probation report that happened with this. CPS never even came out to investigate either claim. So we don't know what's going on now. Summer of 2005, he's got a best friend since the eighth grade and his name is Robin. Toward the end of summer 2005, they decided they're going to grow weed in Scott's closet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So Scott is basically. Him and his mom are living rent free in their friend's house in a beautiful area and he's gonna try to fuck it up any way possible. Let's get us kicked out of here so we can live in a fucking trailer in Reno. What do you say?

[Jimmy Whisman]

They'll never see it. Don't worry about it. It's in the closet.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, they'll never smell it. It's fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're not gonna smell that 2 ounces now.

[James Pietragallo]

Jesus, man. So now it's Robin's job to figure out what lighting to get. Hydroponic stuff, you know, websites that sell. He's gonna gather all the info.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's what the lighting's for.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what the lighting's for. The gross shit.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck is that?

[James Pietragallo]

It's Scott's job to find the money to buy this. That's what they're. Okay. And so he decides after failing to come up with some money, he's gonna steal his neighbor's credit card information out of the mailbox and use it to order the equipment.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy shit. That's stupid.

[James Pietragallo]

That is very dumb. And these are people who. It's a small street in a remote canyon area like this is. It's gonna be found.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So I'm gonna steal my computer scientist roommate's credit card.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no, no. Their neighbor's. Yeah, their neighbor's credit card. They steal Schneider's and use it in the computer guy's house and have it delivered to a lawyer's house. So on September 17, Scott ordered a $267 vaporizer from a site called Vaporwares, using a credit card stolen from a neighbor named John Halpin, who was out of state for over a month and had no idea what was going on. The invoice billed Halpin would ship to Esther Fielding at their address. He shipped it to his own house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Idiot.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay, so Robin, they have emails back and forth. And Robin tells Scott to, he says, quote, keep each car charged small to avoid detectives detection. And so Scott wrote back, quote, stealthiness is my number one priority. Okay. Stealthiness.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't think he knows what that means.

[James Pietragallo]

No. So October 1, 2005, Karen Schneider is the one who hit the dog. This is Scott's dog. His name was Jazz. The dog had to be put down two days after Pamela was murdered, so lived another two weeks. Now Karen Schneider lives right next door to Horowitz and Vitale here. She didn't really know Scott, but she knew the curiels. Thursday, October 13, at 12:15am an order is placed online with specialty lighting. A grow light system is ordered shipped to Esther Fielding, 1050 Hunsacker Canyon Road, with the family's real phone number attached to the billing is to Karen Schneider, who's the dog killing neighbor. But the billing address is listed at the Horowitz Vitale home. So he's using one card to order it in one person's name over here. And then. So the address for the shipping and credit card billing are different, are separate. Okay, so that's interesting. Now four minutes later, a second order for more lighting. Eight minutes after that, a third order for cooling gear. Same email, same shipping, same billing. A fourth order that day used Fielding's, the mom's email, but billed the neighbor, John Halpin. And then later on they'd find another unauthorized charge for a liquid earth starter kit, hydro buckets and pumps. Okay, stealthiness number one priority. October 13, 2005, two days before the murder, Karen Schneider sits down and looks at her bank and credit cards accounts online and finds three charges she never approved from specialty lighting. So she emails the company. The next morning, the owner of the company emails Schneider back and faxes her the copies of the orders and all of this. So they see it's fraud here then and the company, apparently the company says we won't ship the merchandise then, and sends like an email saying it's a canceled order. Then the company gets a phone call from a mail caller asking about problems with the orders. And they said that that was bizarre because in this lady's experience people who place fraudulent orders don't call about them. Yeah, they're usually try something else. Exactly. And he said they sounded young and the person sounded like they were trying to disguise their voice as an older person. Hello. I ordered some lighting for. Well, my wife and family were growing some herbs in our. You know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes, this is Bill Curtis.

[James Pietragallo]

This is Bill. Hello, I'm Bill Curtis. I'm Robin Leach. I ordered some lighting equipment to this big fucking house. Can you deliver it please? There's a hot tub. It's wonderful.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I need hydroponics to a two million dollar house.

[James Pietragallo]

Two million dollar house. Seven thousand square feet. Oh God, that guy's a douche. So anyway, they said she said, you know, just was a weird interaction. Friday, October 14, 2005. Day before the murder. 3:54pm the caller calls the company back and asks can you ship to the billing address on. And the owner says the credit card company has declined the charges and you gotta take it up with them. So he says okay, fine. Both calls, by the way, came from the Curiel's home phone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

This is when everyone's still at a landline. The same Friday after school, Scott calls his buddy Robin and tells him that quote, some of it hadn't gone through and that he was trying to find a way to make it work.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm trying to call the company.

[James Pietragallo]

Cause stealth, stealth is my number one option. Number one priority. So now back to the current timeline. Monday, October 17, the day after the community meeting about the fraud, the curials and Esther confront Scott about the fraud. So his mom and those two. He denies it and said someone must have broken into the house and used his computer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, here we go. Wow. They used the. They were the ones for the porn too.

[James Pietragallo]

This is. Yeah. Oh yeah. They like big tits too. Yeah, that's what they're into.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They beat off all over the place in here.

[James Pietragallo]

All over. Yeah. If there's anything on there with girls with huge asses, someone must have broke in and looked at that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I guarantee they like thick Latinas.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm not into it. Zesty Latina mamacitas. That's not me. I don't look at that. I didn't do it. So he denies it. And Esther is like, she doesn't want to get thrown out. This is a sweet gig for her. It's a nice deal. So she tells Scott he gets one chance to get rid of anything connected to this credit card fraud and never do it again. She said she had not even thought about anything else. Just Trying to help her son. So that same Monday, Kim Kiriel tells Scott how sad she was about Pamela's death. The neighbor. And Scott replied, quote, well, these things happen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They do.

[James Pietragallo]

They just happen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're 16. They don't happen to you.

[James Pietragallo]

No, that made her go. That was weird. So then let's go back to Saturday, the murder day, and go through what Scott was up to. Okay. Saturday, October 15, 2005, 10:45am this is last keystroke for Pamela was 10:12, remember, okay. Scott walks through the curio's front door, walks in, and everybody says he looks strange. They said he was walking with an exaggerated step and he was smiling broadly. And he announced, I had the most beautiful walk this morning to everybody in the house. Kim notices. Kim Kiriel notices his hands are shaking a little bit. She also notices scratches on his nose that are actively bleeding and three or four small scratches on his cheek that are also bleeding.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's bleeding right now.

[James Pietragallo]

Bleeding. Currently bleeding. Well, yeah. He said that he was walking home from this whole thing, from the best walk he's ever had, and he got whacked by a bush. A bush caught him in the face. He says he was looking for a waterfall that the family had mentioned. And Kim says, there's no water in October. And he says, yeah, I found that out. So they get some ointment on his nose. Kim grades a paper because she's doing teaching stuff and leaves with her husband and kids to shop for Halloween costumes at the spirit store. Another person that lives there, Michael Sikima, he's downstairs making oatmeal for his kids. How many people live in this fucking house? Another family lives here. And this is about 10:20am he saw Scott come in. He said close to no later than 11 o' clock is what he says. Downstairs, he says there was fresh gouge marks on his face that hadn't been there the night before. Scott told the same waterfall story. Then Scott's mother gets home. Esther, she notices the scratches and a red palm that he has, too. And now he says he slipped climbing rocks and grabbed for a branch and hit his hand. That's how that happened. So early afternoon of that day, Saturday, October 15, Scott talks on the phone to Kim Kiriel's brother, complaining his hand and wrist are swollen and asking what he should do. He tells the waterfall story. But now he says he fell into a ravine and landed on his wrist. So this story is beautiful.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This walk kicked your ass, Scott.

[James Pietragallo]

Then his girlfriend. Yes, he has a girlfriend. That's the Thing in high school, there's levels of you're not doing well or whatever. If you have a girlfriend of any stripe, right, you're immediately in this tier, you're above that tier.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like boy who's actively attempting to get penis touched. Yeah. Is doing much better than boy who's not.

[James Pietragallo]

And she has a car. She picked him up at 2pm doing pretty cool.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Come on.

[James Pietragallo]

They spend the afternoon together. She notices the scratches, the swollen wrist and all that. He tells the same story. Then at 6pm, Daniel Horowitz came home, discovers the Pamela's pamela. Then at 8pm, Scott and Jenna, who's his girlfriend, arrive at Robin's house. Scott hands Robin $40 to buy weed from him and he had never bought weed from him before. Now he has $40. Then his mom calls Jenna's cell looking for Scott. She tells him there's a rumor someone in the canyon has been killed and the police have blocked the road. So he should try, don't try to come home. Just stay at Jenna's. Just 16 year old. Just stay at your girlfriend's house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stay out all night.

[James Pietragallo]

Great parenting. And then Scott starts saying, he says that if Jenna takes him home, he said, ah, they have, there's been a murder and there's, you know, he says if Jenna takes me home, I'll have to be questioned by the police and it'll be too much of a hassle. So I'll just stay here.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey guys. Finding the perfect gift for the food lover in your life is easy thanks to Goldbelly. Goldbelly ships America's most iconic foods straight from world famous restaurants right to your door. So if you want to treat someone to Joe's Stone Crab from Miami, Franklin Barbecue from Texas or desserts from famous foodies like Ina Garten or Martha Stewart, Goldbelly has you covered. Just go to goldbelly.com and for a limited time get 20% off your first order with promo code gift. That's promo code gift.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A burst pipe, a dead water heater,

[James Pietragallo]

the AC calling it quits. Who do you call? Homeserve is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans for covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of Scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe. Right now, go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal price void in Florida. So the three of them start guessing who got killed. And Scott says it was most likely at the Horowitz house. Because he says Scott Horowitz is a prominent attorney. And he mentions that he saw someone on his walk that morning and wonders aloud if maybe that was the killer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

He also recites a Lizzie Borden rhyme.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, the wax thing.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah. He says if you wanted to kill someone, the most painless way would be to shoot them, but if you wanted to cause pain, you would bludgeon the person 36 or 39 times. He says, after that. Alrighty. Pamela had been struck in the head somewhere in that range, by the way. But the number, none of that was public yet. They didn't even know how. The public didn't even know how she was murdered yet. Okay. Then Scott and Jenna went back to her place, watched a show, and drank absinthe. Because they're douchebags. Yeah. So, Tuesday, October 18th. Okay, this is interesting. The curials are talking to him about the fraud again, pressing him. He's denying it. Fred Keriel told him it didn't look like anyone broke into the computer and asked whether Scott understood that using the Vitale's phone number and address could tie him to the murder, even use her phone number and address. Then she got murdered. That doesn't look good for you. So Scott said he understood. And then he started pacing. And then at some point, Fred said, I'm not saying they're going to think you murdered her, but I'm just saying it's going to cause questioning probably.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It looks bad.

[James Pietragallo]

It looks bad. So Scott said, well, what do you mean? And Fred said, I was just thinking out loud. He said, well, if Pamela had struggled with her attacker the way Horowitz told the press that she had, then it was pretty guaranteed there's going to be DNA under her fingernails and things like that. Hair, footprints, stuff like that. So, I mean, you don't have to worry about it because the physical evidence is what matters. Scott just got quiet and didn't respond.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He said, oh, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Then Kim said, where were you Saturday morning? Uh, oh, they're like a pair of homicide detectives, he said. He said, out for a walk. They said, did you see her talk to anyone? And he thought For a while. And then he said, oh, yes, I did. He said, a woman driving a four door sedan, white, with long straight brown hair and big glasses, she rolled down her window, stopped the car, reached across and grabbed his arm and said, you've got to believe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, okay.

[James Pietragallo]

That's, by the way, an exact dead on description of Pamela Vitale that he gave. Oh, okay. They said, did you know Pamela or did you know the woman that stopped? And he said, no. And then he said, well, she grabbed me. She grabbed my arm so she might have my DNA under her fingernails. And then he showed them fingernail marks on his right arm and said, she even left marks like the fucking Sea hag in Widow's Bay over here. He's gonna follow you home. Then he said, first he said the woman was driving down the canyon. And Kim pointed out that if he was walking up toward the barn, she'd have had to reach all the way across the passenger seat to grab him. So he said, oh, no, no, I met her coming home. I was heading uphill. I made it backwards.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right?

[James Pietragallo]

Then Fred said, well, Pamela was found in a T shirt and her underwear. She hadn't been out of the house that day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

These are the kids that are saying this to him.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no, this is Fred and Kim.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

The Curiels, the people they live with. So they said, she didn't leave the house that day, so you didn't see her out there. And then Scott said, what if my DNA is there? Fred was like, what? So Fred said, if you weren't there, your DNA won't be there. And he said, but what if it is there? Scott said, Fred said, well, that would mean you were there, and that would mean you're going to do a lot of time. And then Scott started getting real nervous and shaky over the next day. The woman on the road story would move around a bit. Now, next day, it's a man and a woman in a car. The woman reaching over the man to grab his arm. He told his mother, I can't believe this is happening. And he told one of the housemates that the whole thing is just a big hallucination. And then he told the housemate's wife, quote, my DNA is on Pamela Vitale.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay. So finally he admitted that he did do the credit card scheme and he lied and he started crying. Now he's like, if I admit to this, maybe everything will go away. So he said he wants to get it fixed. He wants to get it over with. So he told Robin he's going to confess to the fraud, partly to clear Robin's name and partly because he was afraid of them thinking he was a murderer. And he said that he thought owning up the fraud would separate him from that. Meanwhile, it makes it worse.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's so bad at this.

[James Pietragallo]

He's such an idiot. It's almost like he's 16, right? When Robin asked what the connection between the fraud and the murder even was, Scott that just didn't give a coherent answer. Robin said, so. Wednesday, October 19th. Here. Robin's father had been told about the fraud. He confronted Robin and got the whole story, hired a lawyer and went to the police.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice move.

[James Pietragallo]

Robin was granted immunity in exchange for information. On Wednesday evening, October 19, he reported. It's reported that basically Scott gets arrested here. Now, they also talk to the Curiels, who tell them all this shit about the DNA and all that stuff. Okay, so they're like a sheriff's detective clocks the walk from the Vitaly Horowitz residence to an abandoned van on the Curiel property where bloody clothing would be found a little bit later. They say it's about 10 minutes, which gives him plenty of time. Now, the double cross, T there, the cross of Lorraine, as the press was calling it. The prosecution, the cops are going to tie this to a bumper sticker found in Scott's room saying it's the same symbol. Then Scott's mother flees to her sister's place, and Jenna and her mother drove Scott's backpack and belongings up to Esther. Scott's mother. Esther went through the belongings, found scraps of paper with credit card numbers and names. Schneiders, the Halpins, a date book, a box of gloves, clothes, a pair of scotch shoes, a knife, a book on mass murderers and cult leaders, and empty absinthe bottles. This is what he carries around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Plural? Yeah, keeps the bottle.

[James Pietragallo]

So Esther Fielding throws the papers, the gloves and the journal into a wood stove and burns them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why'd she do that?

[James Pietragallo]

Because she's an idiot. And by the way, that will get her arrested for as an accessory after the fact and have her on $500,000 bail.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

But the charge will later be dropped in exchange for her agreement to testify against her own son.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Eesh.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay, but in Scott's backpack, what she didn't burn was a T shirt with blood on it, a pair of Lands End slip on shoes, the same shoes he'd worn to a Renaissance fair with Jenna the day of the murder. And the general tread pattern of the Land's End shoes matches the bloody shoe print on the storage bin. Lit at the scene. A criminalist will later say that Scotch shoes or another shoe with the identical pattern made the print. And then there's the duffel bag. On October 20, deputies search Esther's abandoned Toyota van, a vehicle that sat on the property for years. And behind the driver's seat, they found a duffel bag. And they said it stood out because it looked newer than everything around it. Everything else has been sitting there for years. This thing looks brand new. Inside it, there's a dark pullover, a blue head mask, a long costume style black evening glove, each of them turned inside out and apparently bloodstained. Also an overcoat identified as Scott's, with safety pins on the cuff. The way Scott wore them. All the goth kids did that. The bag had a 2003 airline tag with Scott's name on it from a trip to Hawaii from two years ago. The lab work here found Pamela Vitale's blood on the duffel bag, the glove, the mask, and the shoes. Uh oh, and on the mask, four of six tested areas matched Pamela's blood on the spot corresponding with the wearer's mouth. There's no blood there, but a single source of DNA matched Scott. So he was wearing the mask Slobber. Yep. So there's. They said that a profile expected in roughly 1 in 780 trillion Caucasians. Trillion? No, no, there's never been a trillion people that have ever lived on the planet all put together. Nevermind 780. And they said it's rarer still in other populations. Then there's a swab from the bottom of Pamela's right foot. A mix primarily of Pamela with a minor contributor that's a male, not minor meaning young, minor meaning smaller. A partial profile matched Scott, but not a full one on that. So they said to confirm the male component from one man they sent out for chromosomal testing and all that kind of shit. And across 17 markers, they said that the male component was indistinguishable from Scott's DNA. So there's a lot. Now, at this point, we're in January 2006, they're cleaning up for a party at the Kiriel house. And Fred's brother David, who now has moved into Scott's old room. They need to have a million people living there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shit. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Found five loose sheets of paper. Four had account names, numbers, access codes, addresses, and birth dates, including John Halpin's credit card, security code and online passwords, all in Scott's handwriting. Wow. Two of the five sheets carried Scott's fingerprint. And in the fifth, in Scott's handwriting, there was a vertical list of five points. One was knockout, kidnap, then question, question, then keep captive to confirm, pins, then dirty work, then dispose of evidence. Spelled with an S instead of a C, by the way, followed by the words cut up, bury in parentheses.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Good Christ.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay, now, there's a lot of. There's differing views, by the way, on this kid. A lot of people think he's. The prosecution is saying he's a monster. They talk about Invader Zim, which was a cartoon on Nickelodeon in the early 2000s, about an alien who's incompetent in trying to conquer Earth here. And they talk about that a lot. The prosecution zeroed in on his reaction to an episode, Dark Harvest, in which the alien Zim harvests human organs to look more human. They say that's his favorite episode. That must mean he's a killer. Scott talked about being curious, according to his girlfriend, about how the human body would work without certain organs.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It wouldn't, Scott. That's hot.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And he also talked about beating and breaking the necks of children, which we've all fantasized about that. Let's be honest. There's a few. So ever go to a Chuck E. Cheese? Yeah, it crosses.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ever go to fucking fifth grade class?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. I mean, as an adult, though. So the defense said they were jokes, just kid talking shit, you know, being silly. By the way, the Susan Polk case, because Daniel had trouble with that. The joke judge declared a mistrial, citing in the avalanche of news that the killing had triggered. And Susan fired Horowitz and represented herself.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How'd that go?

[James Pietragallo]

That's crazy. Then publicly blamed Daniel Horowitz for murdering his wife.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can't do that.

[James Pietragallo]

She said. I'm concerned that Dan was involved in her murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my.

[James Pietragallo]

She also told the jury when she represented herself that she had psychic powers and could have stopped 911 if her husband would have let her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why didn't you stop the killing of your husband then?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, right. Her own son got on the witness stand and called her, quote, cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, which is great. She was convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 16 years to life. Scott's trial, by the way, his first lawyer had to step aside for a conflict of interest because he represented the driver who killed Scott's half sister in 2002. What are the fucking odds of that? There's a million public defenders.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The guy that defended the guy that killed his sister.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. So he had to pull out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

So then it went to a Ellen Leonida for another public defender. And that's a big deal. They try to get a change of venue. There is a million newspaper articles, broadcasts, web things. I mean, this is a big deal in this area. As you might imagine here, roughly half of the jurors they got in there had heard of the satanic symbol carved into her back. The judge denies the change of venue. Okay, so the prosecution opening said that basically he's steeped in death goth artwork. He's obsessed with Jack the Ripper. That's a big.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He knows who Ed Gein is, James.

[James Pietragallo]

He knows Ed Gein is a small. This is pre true crime boom. Of everybody knowing it. The organ harvesting cartoon, the live for the kill poem, the bullet point list, you know, they said he was humiliated by a neighbor over a dead dog. The address. Sitting in his own fraudulent billing field and mask and gloves and a rock and a knife going over everything. Scott's own writing they read to the jury. You raised me to hate and hate I will, because now I live. Live for the kill. Which sounds like a song lyric. That just sounds like a Slayer song, doesn't it? Yeah, I think it's like a metal song or. He should write metal or something. Yeah. About the symbol they said seized from Scott's bedroom was a bumper sticker reading, I'm for the separation of church and hate. And the H in hate was drawn in the exact double crossed form of the symbol carved into Pamela's back. So they said that was like his own sign. That's his Zorro, you know? Then they said maybe Scott was there to confront or kill Karen Schneider, the dog killer, but got the wrong house because they're next door.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

Because he didn't know either one of those people, really. Because the billing address on the fraud was to that house, not her house. So they said, that is, ladies and gentlemen, that Scott Dileski thought Karen schneider lived at 1901 Hunsacker Road. There's just no other way to interpret that. So they said, even if it is a mistaken identity, it doesn't matter because it's still the same. It's still the same intent to kill. He said he's guilty. There's no reasonable interpretation of the evidence other than Scott murdered Pam. Okay? Now, the defense, they call him a gentle, small, bullied, artsy kid who valued human and animal rights and could never have done this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right?

[James Pietragallo]

His own mom testifies against him, so they have to do that. Yeah, they ask her also about burning the shit and all that kind of thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's Devastating. Especially in your case when mom says she found shit with the victim's blood on it and threw out, burned a bunch of your shit that's incriminating.

[James Pietragallo]

She also, in the middle of testifying, sees Pamela's daughter Marissa in the courtroom and says, oh, my God, she looks so much like Pamela. And then Marissa started crying more and she said, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to upset you. Why don't you talk to people from the. The defense case is character witnesses. A teacher who coached him in ultimate Frisbee and made him team captain. A graphic design teacher who called his artwork exceptional and noted that roughly a fifth of her students made gruesome art and none of them killed anyone. Friends of a friend's mother who'd never seen him be violent or angry. Scott didn't testify, and basically the prosecution did a four week case. The defense ran an eight hour case consisting of character witnesses and then rested.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Pietragallo]

No experts, no alibi. In the opening, she promised an alibi for Scott and never delivered that. The defense closing. They showed pictures of him playing Frisbee and said that someone else's DNA was on items attributed to her client. The blood on Pamela's foot was contaminated, she says, and the case was entirely circumstantial. Built by demonizing a kid over his drawings. 0 plus 0 equals zero. You can't take a bunch of innocent interpretations and mash them together with the volume of your voice. Okay. 18 hours of deliberation.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a while.

[James Pietragallo]

They find him guilty of everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

First degree murder, special circumstances. That it was committed during a robbery. First degree residential burglary and a weapon use enhancement for the bludgeoning, the burglary. Special circumstances made it a potential life without parole. No death penalty. Because he's only 16. He's a child.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Victim impact. Pamela's family, her sister spoke, called him a monster from the depths of hell. Said he no longer deserves to be called human. He has lifeless shark eyes. He was there at her last moment of life. All this, I mean, they're pissed, obviously. For mitigation, they bring back the same people they brought in for the character witnesses. They bring in his stepmother, who painted a bleak portrait of his parents, talking about emotional neglect and abuse and all that kind of thing. His former scoutmaster said, I don't believe I could misjudge his character to such an extent that I could say he did it. I don't believe he did it. Scott's mom is not allowed to testify for him here because she Already testified against him. The judge. Wow. The judge said she acknowledged that two jurors actually wrote letters asking for mercy because he seemed polite and intelligent and artistic. But she said, I've seen the autopsy photos. She described the deliberate.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nothing polite about it.

[James Pietragallo]

Nope. Deliberate planning. She told him the only time he showed any emotion was when the autopsy photographs were displayed and the pathologist described Pamela's injuries. He leaned forward, mouth open. Absolutely fascinated by your handiwork. You, sir. You, young man may fuck off. Maximum sentence, life in prison without the possibility of parole. Plus a year for the weapon. With a four year burglary term, too. 342 days credit for time served and no good time conduct.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Any fines?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, no fines. On his 18th birthday, he's transferred to San Quentin, becoming the youngest inmate in the California prison system at that time. Because they do youth authority till 21 usually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus Christ.

[James Pietragallo]

The public defender's office, three days later, resigns. The public defender defended him to, quote, move on. Now there's a bunch of appeals here. In 2011, he becomes a Wiccan in prison, which I don't know if you get any special meals or anything like that. Maybe 2006, 2009's the appeal. 2016 is a federal habeas appeal. 2018, there's a new law enacted by California Senate Bill 394 that gives juveniles tried as adults sentenced to life without parole an opportunity for eventual release. He's currently scheduled to become eligible for parole in 2030. It was reduced to 25 years. His sentence.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, that's too early.

[James Pietragallo]

So that's his first. Yeah. I don't think they're gonna let him out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, there's a guy named Ralph Fernandez, an investigator, former Miami Dade homicide detective, who thinks he's innocent and has been pushing it for over 10 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Going to the city council saying the DNA on Pamela's foot, a partial match, is not a cold hit. They argue it should be retested by an examiner with no ties to the county. They also said the broken bloody mug reportedly found in the kitchen carried saliva DNA matching Horowitz, which. He could have been drinking it and it got knocked. Bo, that's silly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's in his house.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of shit. The shoe print described by the prosecution's own expert is similar but not a definitive match. They said that the Land's End shoe tread carried Pamela's blood in a way the defense argued was inconsistent with someone who'd worn the shoes through a fair that had. Next day the glove and the duffel bag, Basically. He said it's very. He's trying to say he didn't do it. He is putting it. He's saying it's the husband.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

He said the husband. They said that, quote, it's very clear. He killed her, then walked around the house and moved a bunch of stuff. They didn't want to go after the husband at all, is what they said. Okay, so they say it's a third party. This goes on and on and on. They also claim juror misconduct, which. That sounds pretty on point, but Scott's currently incarcerated at Corcoran State Prison, which is not nice. And there is a huge group of people that say he's innocent based on a spot of blood on Pamela's foot. What about all the other blood? How did he get that on him? Why did he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why does he have her blood if

[James Pietragallo]

he never met her? Why is he full of scratch marks?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't have anything on the scene. Her blood is with him. That's. That's unexplainable.

[James Pietragallo]

Unexplainable.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So unless you say he was framed.

[James Pietragallo]

Unless you're saying he was framed. Exactly. So when Daniel Horowitz didn't even know him to frame him. So how the hell would he do that? Or anybody else?

[Jimmy Whisman]

And why is he. Why is he telling everybody my. My DNA is on her?

[James Pietragallo]

That's the other thing. So there you go. We ran a little long. Apologies for that, but this is a crazy case.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Could have gone even longer. So look it up, though. If you look up St. Scott Dialesic is innocent, you'll come up with a bunch of shit that people believe. That especially go down a Reddit rabbit hole. My fucking God.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

So, yeah, people want to compare it to, like, West Memphis three, but it's not even close to the same. It's not the same. They got him because he said my DNA is there, not cause he's weird

[Jimmy Whisman]

because he's got scratches all over him.

[James Pietragallo]

All over him. So shut upandgivemerder.com is where the website is, where you get all the tickets to live shows. September 18, Pabst Theater in Milwaukee. September 19, Minneapolis. Get in there. State the in Minneapolis. So do that. Then we're Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown, Boston. Get your tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Definitely do that. Listen to crime and sports. Listen to small town murder. Follow us on social media. Smalltownmurder on Instagram, Smalltownpod on Facebook. Definitely get yourself Patreon patreon.com crimeinsports anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything. We put out hundreds of back bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. One Crime in sports. One Small Town murderer. You get it all this week. Crime in SP Hostages Part 2 Small Town Murder. Prisoner Dating Game. I don't need to say anymore. Get your ass in there. It's Prisoner Dating game time. It's that time of year. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get everything. We put out ad free and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. So do that. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you go if you want to follow us on social media or know anything about the show. Thank you so much for joining us everybody. Have a good one and we'll see you later.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Bye. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey everybody listening to small town murder out there. Hi.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hello.

[James Pietragallo]

Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for for a product. This is an ad for tour dates.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes.

[James Pietragallo]

Come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham. March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets though to your stupid opinions. On the 21st of March, Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2. May 29, Buffalo, sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30 we have September 18, Milwaukee. September 19, Minneapolis. October 3 in Dallas. October 16 in San Jose. October 17 in Sacramento. November 13 in Tarrytown. November 14 in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're gonna meet so many people. You're gonna have fun. Make some new friends like crazy and make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and givemeimurder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

See you on the road.