Poison Pudding Problems - Columbus, Indiana

Summary

SMALL TOWN MURDER
Podcast: Small Town Murder
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Episode: Poison Pudding Problems – Columbus, Indiana
Release Date: April 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

James and Jimmie dive into the darkly bizarre story of a “picture-perfect” small town romance gone fatally wrong in Columbus, Indiana. With their signature fusion of deep research and biting comedy, the hosts lay out the case of Alan Duvall, a beloved local whose death in 2007 initially looked like a tragic mix of alcohol and heat—but quickly unraveled into a tale of financial desperation, a suspiciously timed life insurance policy, missing drugs, an over-the-top dessert, and a cold-blooded scheme. The episode explores small-town dynamics, peculiar personalities, and the disturbing planning often underlying “accidental” deaths.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

About Columbus, Indiana (05:42–23:13)

• Small town but not tiny: Population of ~50,000.
• Town’s motto: “Unexpected, Unforgettable.” Nickname: “Athens of the Prairie.”
  “Some balls on these people.” – James (08:04)
• Local culture: Not enough nightlife, restaurants, or engaging date ideas. Hosts mock the town’s lack of “escape rooms and axe throwing,” instead referencing its “Chuck Taylor Day” (celebrating the shoe legend with a giant fiberglass sneaker) and a renowned Ethnic Expo.
• Economic snapshot: Mixed college/family town, fairly affordable housing, but with high property crime rates.

The Victim: Alan Duvall (23:15–38:42)

• Background: Born 1945, Navy veteran, worked various blue-collar and sales jobs, “life of the party,” friendly and generous but not wealthy (“He lived in a hotel rent-free as maintenance man”).
• “He’s a koozie man... Always has a beer, rarely truly drunk.” – Jimmie (37:08)
• Active, healthy for his age, loved cars (especially Corvettes), family, and pickup basketball.

The New Bride: Tammy Smith Engelman Duvall (39:03–47:14)

• Background: 13 years younger than Alan, twice-divorced, worked as a CNA, “looked great for her age” (surgically enhanced), known as a “good looker,” but financially irresponsible and described by her ex as “shrewd, beguiling, sociopathic.”
• “There was one Christmas when I was short on money... she left $300 for my kids.” – Her friend Jennifer (44:08)
• Verdict from her own daughter: “A very beguiling, shrewd person.”
• Meeting Alan: Quick courtship, married within 12 weeks, lots of family skepticism.

Rapidly Tumultuous Marriage (49:09–56:31)

• Red flags:
  • Alan appears wealthy but isn’t.
  • Tammy expected lavish spending (honeymoon to Hawaii)—on her credit card, expects reimbursement.
  • Pushes Alan to leave rent-free hotel living, buy a house, and get a stable job.
  • Daughter (16) is openly hostile to Alan, leading to regular conflict.
  • Tammy’s restless shopping sprees create deep financial crisis—creditors, overdue bills, looming foreclosure, unpaid college tuition.
  • Alan's drinking a constant tension point; Tammy refuses to accept.
• “She likes to spend money like he likes to drink.” – Jimmie (53:13)

The Affair, Friction, and Financial Crisis (56:31–70:39)

• Tammy begins an affair with Gary Ruddle, a local insurance agent (described as torrid).
• Neighbor alerts Alan to Gary's daytime visits.
• Alan, hopeful for reconciliation, still helps around the house.
• Tammy allegedly calls police claiming Alan hit her daughter—no injuries/charges, but leads to Alan moving out.
• Tammy told friends she was “done with Alan”; Alan (heartbroken) believed they’d reconcile once the daughter left for college.

Missing Drugs and Suspicious Behavior (73:25–83:13)

• At her workplace (nursing home), a strong liquid morphine (“Roxanol”) bottle goes missing after Tammy is left alone; she blames a relative, but the evidence is fishy.
• Flexeril (muscle relaxant) disappears from Alan’s cousin’s home after a party both attended, with 100–200 pills missing.
• Tammy invites Alan over to sign “mortgage insurance” papers (it’s a life insurance policy in reality). Gary is present for the signature.

Alan’s Death: The Poison Pudding (84:15–89:07)

• Aug 23, 2007: Alan visits the house to fix the A/C. Tammy serves chicken salad and her “signature” dessert—chocolate dirt pudding (crushed Oreos, pudding, cream cheese).
• Serves Alan two Long Island iced teas despite pushing him to quit drinking.
• Alan goes outside “to cool down” and falls asleep in a lawn chair.
• Morning of Aug 24: Tammy finds Alan “dead” on the porch.
  “This is the healthiest dead person I think I’ve ever seen.” – Officer (87:23)
• Suspicious urgency: Tammy instantly requests cremation the same day, despite Alan owning a burial plot and wishing for a military funeral.
  “Why does he need to be cremated right this second when he owns a burial plot?” – Det. Mark Crutchen (90:13)

Investigation & Autopsy Results (92:18–105:15)

• Family, friends, and even Tammy’s own daughter and son-in-law call police, all suspecting her.
• Autopsy findings:
  • Blood alcohol at 0.436 (lethal for almost everyone).
  • Morphine in system: 6,590 nanograms/ml (over 100x the therapeutic dose).
  • Flexeril: 8x therapeutic dose.
• Detective officially opens a homicide investigation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On “Dirt Pudding” recipe:
  “You crumbled up some fucking cookie on some Jell-O pudding. Stop acting like you did this.” – Jimmie (83:14) “She came to the fork in the road and went straight, man.” – James (83:38)

• On her insurance tactics:
  “She convinced Alan to list her as a beneficiary on his life insurance policy by convincing him they’d eventually reconcile.” – James (102:27)

• On her history of poisoning:
  “Thanksgiving 2004, [Tammy] brings pudding to her ex-boyfriend, insists he eat it, then tries to get him to sign a policy with her as beneficiary. She takes the bowl when he won’t sign.” (115:01)

• On her wild lies to police:
  “Initially, she says he didn’t drink that night; later, it was two Long Island Iced Teas, then a bunch of tequila, then whiskey and morphine…” (114:42)

• On her string of explanations:
  “She believes, though, her final story, this is my final answer and I’m sticking to it, is that he accidentally drank himself to death. That’s what she said was her final story. Then she changed that...” (125:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Town background & reviews: 05:42–23:13
• Alan’s background & personality: 23:13–38:42
• Tammy’s backstory & relationship with Alan: 39:03–47:14
• Marriage and mounting problems: 49:09–56:31
• Tammy’s affair & separation: 56:31–70:39
• Drug disappearances & insurance policy setup: 73:25–83:13
• Alan’s last evening, death, and the pudding: 83:14–89:07
• Initial investigation, autopsy results, and family suspicions: 92:18–105:15
• Police interrogations and shifting stories: 108:14–125:06
• Case against Tammy – the trial & evidence: 128:05–140:55
• Similar famous “poisoning” cases: 162:03–171:23

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The Trial & Aftermath

• Prosecution’s case: Circumstantial, but damning; highlighted financial despair, insurance motive, serial deception, and drug access/opportunity.
• Steven Brown (ex-boyfriend) testifies: Tammy tried the same pudding/insurance combo on him years before Alan’s death (131:05).
• Defense: Leans hard on suicide theory; points to lack of direct morphine theft proof and the possibility of Alan taking drugs himself (149:18).
• Verdict: Guilty of murder, six counts insurance fraud, and three counts obstruction of justice (152:41).
• Sentence: 60.5 years in prison (157:22); earliest release date: Dec 2040.

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Reflections on the Case, Similar Incidents, and the Perils of Trust

• Hosts discuss notorious other “poison pudding”/“deadly wife” cases (Sabrina Limon, Stacey Castor, Audrey Marie Hilley, etc.) (164:59–171:23), noting the particular premeditation and psychological makeup required for poison killings.
• “You have so many opportunities to change your mind... So anyway, five months of planning this. That’s not, ‘I shot him in a moment of anger’—that is fucking sick.” – James (171:55)

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Closing Thoughts & Personal Touches

• James reflects on how much we trust others with our food (“We go to clubs and eat cookies strangers bake us”), and how much easier it would be for someone to slip you something deadly than anyone wants to admit (179:54–181:54).
• Jimmie: “I’d feel bad to ruin a steak with poison, honestly. Their last thought would be, ‘Jimmy makes a shit steak.’ No, I don’t!” (181:07)
• Alan remembered fondly: “He seemed like a party. He seemed like a fun guy. Not a dude to kill over 100 grand, that’s for sure.” (182:03)

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Essential Takeaways

• Alan Duvall’s murder was a meticulously-planned, cold-blooded killing driven by financial desperation, pattern behavior, and a shocking lack of empathy from his wife, Tammy.
• The evidence was largely circumstantial but painted an unescapable picture thanks to a pattern of deception, similar prior acts, and a string of coincidental drug disappearances wherever Tammy went.
• The case is a classic showcase of how “nice towns,” “nice people,” and “accidental deaths” are often far more complicated—and dangerous—than they first appear.

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Recommended for listeners who enjoy:

• True crime with comedic commentary
• Bizarre small-town stories
• Cases with layers of deception and dramatic twists

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Notable Quote to Remember:
“She is a stone cold killer, plain and simple. She killed her husband, a person who I feel truly loved her. And all she could see was $100,000 stamped on his forehead.” – Prosecutor during sentencing (153:15)

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If you loved this episode, check out the Small Town Murder Patreon for bonus episodes—including the highly recommended Corey Richins murder drama, another “black widow” saga!

Transcript

[A]

I'm no designer, but I know my brand inside and out and I know a generic looking website when I see one. Wix Harmony has blown me away. It's a website builder that lets me switch back and forth between using AI and hands on editing tools so I can create a website exactly the way I pictured it. I even get a personal AI agent that's an expert in web design and helps me out try it out for [e-mail] Harmony that's wix.com Harmony.

[B]

I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. I figured out that Shopify was a thing. I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free [e-mail] this Week in Columbus, Indiana. After the suspicious death of a man in his estranged wife's backyard, detective detectives assume that it's just a sad tragedy. But when people start coming forward with information, they must decide whether he did it to himself or if a certain dessert item could be the culprit. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[A]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[B]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely wild edition of Small Town Murder. As you know, we had a serial killer for the regular episode last week. We've had a lot of crazy stuff here and this is no different. So buckle up because it's going to be nuts here before we get into this. Definitely head over to shutupandgivemerder.com get your tickets for everything, all the live shows that are out there. First of all, the next live show with tickets available May 2nd in Denver. Still some seats for that. Yeah, they're going so fast. They're going fast. And then Royal Oak, Michigan too. I think there's a few left for that one as well on May 30. And then after the summer, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown in Boston and then our funerals in early December. So that'll be a nice thing. You can all come to that and you can all mourn us. So that's how that's going to Work. Definitely do that. Shut upandgivemerder.com also get yourself patreon. Do yourself a favor, get yourself patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports just like the name of the other show that we do that you should listen to and you will love. Even if you don't like sports, it's a great show. Do that, anybody, $5 a month or above, you get everything. Everything we put out immediately. And that is including as soon as you subscribe, you're gonna get hundreds over 300 back bonus episodes. Whole big catalog of those to binge and then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And how much of that do they get? All of it. Every damn drop of it. That's right. This week is no different, Patreon. This week for crime and sports we're gonna talk about the believe it's the Ecclesia Athletic association, which was a program in California for inner city kids to get them off the streets and get them into sports. And what do you think happened there? It turned into a somebody's pants came down weird cult thing and it's creepy. And then for small town murder it is Cory Richens Part 2. People can't wait for that. We are excited. That's the woman who poisoned her husband and then wrote a grief book for her children about it, which is unbelievable insanity. We'll get to all that and more. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of these regular show as well. And then you get everything we put out. Crime and sports, your stupid opinions and small town murder all ad free with your Patreon as well. You can't beat it, everybody. That said, disclaimer time.

[A]

Here we go.

[B]

Hey, this is a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. Unfortunately, people are gonna die here. And whether we do a show about them or not, they're still dead. That's the thing.

[A]

Still dead.

[B]

Still dead. And we still didn't kill them. So don't be mad at us for that is what we're saying. We are going to make jokes and people are going to die. And you go, well, how does that work? Well, we follow a very simple rule that I think helps a lot and that's we never make fun of the victim or the victim's family.

[A]

Why, James?

[B]

Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? See, that's it. I think everything falls under those parameters. Things happen, you know, there's crazy stories and crazy stuff. Going on behind. And that's where the jokes all come from. We'll make fun of a small town because who cares? Everybody's from a small town to make fun of. It doesn't matter. We'll make fun of murderers. We'll make fun of a police force that screws everything up and lets somebody kill a bunch like they did in the last episode. And so that's what we do here. So, yeah, if that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, this might not be the place for you. Or it might be. That's the thing. You never know. I say give it a shot. No complaining later. What do you say, everybody? That's the important part. So I think it's time everybody, to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. There we go. Here. Arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Let's go on a trip, shall we?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Let's do this. We are going to Indiana this week. Columbus, Indiana.

[A]

Can't fuck that up.

[B]

There's a Columbus everywhere. Oh, they'll. I'm sure there's some pronunciation that's wrong. Columbus. Ooh, the Louisiana people. You guys are brutal about these columboose. Listen, L.A. there is not a. You barely speak English down there, first of all, so how dare you say anything about pronunciations. Whatever you're saying, you're saying it wrong. I'll just say that. We'll tell you what the English translation of it is for you.

[A]

Or the French. Fuck you.

[B]

Yeah. Or say it in French. I don't know. Then I wouldn't know what you're talking about. But this is in south Central Indiana. About 50 minutes to Indianapolis, about an hour and 10 to Louisville in the other direction. So to mediocre cities within an hour's drive of you. And then about an hour and 45 to Williamsburg, Indiana. That's our last Indiana episode. Episode 654, A Death in the Family, which you'll want to go back and listen to because it was crazy. Now, this is in Bartholomew County. Bartholomew area codes 812 and 930. It's got two area codes because it's also got a nickname and a motto. So they're living it up here. The motto here. Unexpected, unforgettable. Oh, yeah, those could go both ways. It's like a Calvin Klein ad from the 80s. To people dressed in flowy white clothes. With windblow and making out and they say, unexpected, unforgettable, and Justin B.

[A]

Pointing down, going, my pee pees in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you see that Kate McKinnon sketch? Ah, you probably didn't.

[B]

No, it's one of the best.

[A]

It's one of the best things done in the last 10 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

That's that. There's, like, two things. So, yeah, Kate McKinnon and the CK had it. I gave up on SNL a long time ago.

[A]

She's incredible.

[B]

Oh, she's great. Yeah, she's great. But, yeah, they didn't have anything funny going on for a while. And it's not even their fault. It's just that. How do you collect? It's all been done. Well, it's all been done by Saturday. That's the problem. There's no more commentary that needs to be said. It's been memeified all week.

[A]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[B]

So nickname of this town? Athens of the prairie. Some balls on these people.

[A]

Athens, Georgia or Greece?

[B]

Athens. Like, you know, where all the stuff comes from. Yeah. Diplomacy of the prairie. Yeah. Okay, a little bit of history here. The land developed as Columbus was bought by General John Tipton and a guy named Luke Bonesteel.

[A]

Bonesteel.

[B]

Bonesteel. He has. Talk about. I've never seen anyone leave such a lucrative country music career on the table as Luke Bonesteel. Cause, I mean, honestly, whatever you did,

[A]

are you sure he did?

[B]

He wasn't a country music star. So no Luke Bonesteel.

[A]

He might have been.

[B]

No, not in 1820, unfortunately for him. Tipton built a log cabin on Mount Tipton, a small hill overlooking the White River. And the town was first known as Tiptona. Tipton. With an A. Tiptona. Named in honor of Tipton. They changed the town's name because it was stupid onto Columbus.

[A]

Cause it sucks.

[B]

Cause it was real dumb. And people were making fun of them. On March 20, 1821, all the other towns around were mocking them.

[A]

What did it last? A year. How long did it last?

[B]

Yeah, about a year. Not long. People believe that Tipton was upset by the name change, but we're not sure about that. But either way, he founded the town and built the first everything and then left after they changed the name. So I think he was pissed off about it. I don't think they liked him very much here.

[A]

Ah, that's funny.

[B]

In 1821, basically, there was three or four log cabins developed around the ferry landing, and then they added a store in 1821. So that's what there was later when

[A]

you got a good strong name like Columbus, you gotta have a store around here.

[B]

Like Tiptona. You gotta have a Tiptona.

[A]

Didn't have a store.

[B]

No store in Tiptona. And then it was later that year the county was organized and Columbus was incorporated as a town in 1864 and then as a city in 1921.

[A]

Very much like Columbus, already established. And throws his name on it.

[B]

Throws his name on everything. Hey, there's people already here. I found this. It's Columbus. Reviews of this town. Since, you know, we've never been here and hopefully won't be anytime soon, we have other people's opinions. This place has 3.9 stars out of 174 reviews on Niche. So well reviewed. Here's 5 stars. Columbus is a city I would visit if I didn't already live here.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Wrap your brain around that. Unravel every day. Just say that Columbus is a city I would visit if I didn't already live here is the dumbest sentence ever uttered. With architecture and plenty of activities for weekend stays, it combines small town charm and big city diversity in one. I would, however, like to see more unique activity shops for dates. Activity shops for dates. They mean like escape rooms. Escape rooms and fucking axe throwing and whatever douchebags do on dates.

[A]

Have you seen those? They do those now.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Cookie dates, James.

[B]

Cookie date. Whatever happened to having a couple of glasses of wine and seeing where this thing goes? What are we doing? What are we doing here?

[A]

Seeing what their genitals taste like. What are we doing? Be adults. Jesus Christ.

[B]

I don't want to hear people blaming anything else. Oh, oh. There's too much birth control. So there's a population. I don't hear any of that shit. This is the problem. When you go on your first date to paint a fucking cookie, you're laying down. No sexual undertone to that whatsoever. None. Nothing's going to happen.

[A]

The exact opposite, actually.

[B]

The exact opposite. Of course. Yeah. You're neutering the relationship for the rest of it right there. It's just. This is our relationship.

[A]

Ridiculous.

[B]

Just like two ants that get together to make cookies. That's who we are. So yeah, I would like to see that. As well as diversity in dining, I guess. More than just the Taco Bell. Maybe a real Mexican joint. Here's five stars. Columbus has so many nice people. It has a small hometown feel. There's plenty to do and it is beautiful.

[A]

Yeah. And if you lived here, you'd already be home.

[B]

You'd already be home.

[A]

Remember that?

[B]

That's what the sign says. Here is three stars. I love the architecture and beauty within Columbus, but drugs have become such an epidemic that I feel it's losing its beauty.

[A]

Yeah, it's every town.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, not drugs. Really. Very unique that you have drug addicts there. Here's two stars. This is not a town that promotes young adult growth. I don't know if you have to promote it. They're growing. No matter what, they're gonna grow. You can't stop it.

[A]

It's just nature, babe.

[B]

It's just nature. And honestly. And honestly is not very popular amongst well mannered individuals.

[A]

Oh, it's only the surly folks.

[B]

So yeah, this town is not popular amongst well mannered individuals, apparently.

[A]

What's the population? Did you say that yet?

[B]

Not yet, no. It's in a minute. We'll get to that in about 15 or about a minute. Yeah. Two stars. Lots of people get kicked out of their homes because they stop paying rent. Well, that's what happens. Yeah. Cause and effect. Because it seems most of them do drugs because of all the traffic in the houses and the houses stay vacant for long periods of time. You just describe drugs. That's drugs. Yeah. One star. The nightlife here is awful. Really? In Columbus, Indiana? I'd expect it to be.

[A]

I just found out about it. Yeah, I haven't been yet.

[B]

There's nothing for adults to do except get into trouble. Well, there are only a few decent bars here and I would not even say that they were decent. I would rather drive 45 minutes north and go to Indianapolis than stay here in town also. That's what you do. Yeah, that's your 45 minutes. But I guess if you want a drink or something that's not fun, then you have to Uber. That's an expensive Uber.

[A]

You get a hotel again, this is what you do when you don't live in the city.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. But people a lot of times they don't have the money to go to a city and go to get a hotel just to get drunk for the night. You can drink at home, I guess, but yeah, that's what I mean.

[A]

Shuffle the handle and shut up.

[B]

I get what you're complaining about, but you know what you can do? Not live in a small town.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the solution to that. I would rather drive 45 minutes north and go to Indianapolis. Also with the restaurant, I would rather drive 30 minutes to Greenwood and eat up there. The variety is much greater than here. So same complaints not enough restaurants. Stupid date options. Okay, population here, 50,718. Wow, this has gone up a lot. In 2000, they had 39,000 people.

[A]

So it's no nightlife with 50,000 people.

[B]

50,000 people. You'd think there would be some.

[A]

I think there's a problem here.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's Indiana is the problem here. Let's see. Women in this town, 49.3%. 50.7% men. So more men than women in a big town. That's not great for the guys there. Median age here, 35.7. It's a little lower than the national average because there is a college here as well. Indiana University, Columbus. Oh, is that right? Yeah. So you would imagine there would be bars at least if there's colleges. That makes no sense. Family in the city.

[A]

Although, James, when it's a town like that and you go to a bar in a town that's. It's the fucking worst to go to a college park.

[B]

I live in Poughkeepsie.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I live five minutes.

[A]

Tried to go up here to the derby.

[B]

Go there.

[A]

Halloween. Not a chance.

[B]

No, Go there.

[A]

Packed with college kids. I'm going.

[B]

Packed with them. Yep. See ya. Yeah, they're the worst. And these, they're uppity little shits, too.

[A]

Oh, James, they got way better cars than I have.

[B]

Indiana University, Columbus. They might be a little more down to earth. These Vassar kids are all like, you know. You know, my dad was in a sitcom. Well, fuck you. You know, it's all that shit.

[A]

They're driving $80,000 lifted trucks. These kids, I feel like, drive Kias for sure.

[B]

This is a Keogh University here. 53.5% married, despite the young population of college kids. So the rest of it is very kind of suburban family, all that kind of shit. 17.7% are single with children. So that's a little higher than the national average race in this town. 79% white, 2.5% black, 10.4% Asian. Must be a decent college.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

And 5.7% Hispanic here. 49.5% of the people here are religious. So that's just about the national average. And it is a hodgepodge. There is nothing real. Lutheran has the most, and that's 9%. So it's a real hodgepodge. 17% other Christian faith. So don't know what that is, but that takes the day. Low unemployment rate here. Median household income, little bit higher than the national average. 72,380 bucks. So not Terrible.

[A]

Dang.

[B]

Especially for a college town. Usually they're pretty low. Just to take into account the college kids. On average cost of living here, 100 is regular. Average here it's 83. So a little bit low. And the housing is even lower. The housing. $230,100 is the median home cost.

[A]

Kind of a great place to be if you just want to.

[B]

Not bad.

[A]

Be in bed by seven.

[B]

That's the thing. Yeah. If you're just real boring and you like to, you know, you like to sit around.

[A]

Sounds awesome.

[B]

It sounds great. And if you do like to sit around and if this sounds perfect for you, you're in luck. We have for you the Columbus, Indiana real estate. Average. Two bedroom rental here goes for 1,070 bucks, which is below the national average. Not bad for a college town. House number one. Two bedroom, one bath, 840 square feet. It's a little house built in 1900. Very kind of a cool old house. That's kind of cool. The problem is it's like four feet from the tiny, cool little old house next to it. That's the other. It looks like you could reach out a window and like touch the siding on the other house.

[A]

Hand somebody with sugar.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's a little. Yeah. You could be like Godfather 2 and hand. Veto the hand. Veto the tablecloth full of guns and say, here, hold on to that. That's what's going on here. 110,000 bucks for this. I mean, it's in fine shape and all, but that's. That's expensive for a house. No. Here is a three bedroom, two bath, 25, 28 square foot. So two story. You can stick your family in there. Built in 1948. Again, not a big lot. Pretty small lot, but nicely done on the inside. Fireplaces, hardwood floors, decent house. Just had a $15,000 price cut. Good news, everybody. $220,000 for that bad boy. 2,300 square feet. Not bad. And the next house is. It's a gigantic log cabin. It looks like a resort, like a ski lodge. It's a big one. Three bedroom, four bath, t bowl for each and every B hole. 5,580 square feet on 220 acres. Oh, it is just the woods. It's awesome. And it sits like. And you can't even like, see it. It sits up on a hill behind a bunch of trees. It's like a ski lodge. It's cool as shit.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

You're gonna pay for it, though. $4,490,000 for that, that's fine.

[A]

Unload. Yeah, unload some of the land and make it more affordable. I don't know. That seems like a decent deal.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know what this land is worth without the house. And vice versa type of thing. I'm not sure. Things to do here. Okay, we have Chuck Taylor Day. What, that Chuck Taylor? Yeah. The inaugural Chuck Taylor Day was held in June of 2025, celebrating the local basketball legend and creator of of course the Chuck Taylor Converse there. And they're attempting to get a Guinness world record for the most Chuck Taylors in one place. People wearing the sneakers, shoes. Yeah, yeah, most people wearing them.

[A]

I mean, I think that's Kohl's, but I could be.

[B]

Yeah, probably. They also have live music that they don't feel necessary to even tell you about. Oh, no, we have those. Then there's also unveiling of a giant 10 foot fiberglass sneaker. Not of Chuck Taylor, the guy, the sneaker. A giant fiberglass sneaker.

[A]

Imagine that.

[B]

That is amazing.

[A]

Imagine when there's a. In 60 years, there's a Jimmy and James Day and they just unveil a 20 foot microphone.

[B]

Just a big, big dick of a microphone sitting there. Sure, why not? That's perfect. Just a Usurme fuck off shirt. That's what they'd make.

[A]

A big. A 20 foot fiberglass one.

[B]

By the way, somebody got that on their middle finger. I saw tattooed ysl. I was like, wow.

[A]

Tattooed.

[B]

Pretty damn badass. Awesome.

[A]

That is fucking cool. I guess it's a choice to make.

[B]

It's a choice. It's a strong choice. But I mean, it's on your middle finger, so it's making a statement.

[A]

It's the right one.

[B]

Live music from the Born Mountaineer and the Revelators. Two separate bands. Revelators, okay. And there's also food trucks. There's also the Ethnic Expo that will be there.

[A]

That's all the music.

[B]

That's all the music you're getting for Chuck Taylor. Yeah, for Chuck Taylor Day. The Ethnic Expo is the one everybody talks about because they have good food. It's their own little world's fair, it seems like, where they have good food from everywhere. Very interesting group of musicians here you have the Mariachi Sol. Jealous Science. You got that? Then you have the Southern Indiana Taiko. DJ Smooth G will be there. Gotta have him. And then closing it out, Bruce Humphries. Everybody knows about old Bruce Humphries. So.

[A]

Good morning, DJ.

[B]

Yeah, Bruce Humphries here giving you your top 10 at 10 this morning.

[A]

Brums, 97. 5.

[B]

Bruce Humphries, 97. 5. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They all sound like driving weather. Driving weather. Crime rate in this town. This is wild. Property crime, usually a little higher in a college town, but this is obscene here. Almost double the national average.

[A]

God damn, there's a lot.

[B]

And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime, that's about half the average. So, okay, that seems like just a lot of college bullshit goes on here. Yeah. That said, let's talk about some murder. What do you say?

[A]

Here we go.

[B]

All right. Here, let's talk about a man, first off. Here, let's talk about a dude, Alan Duvall. Here. A L, A N. There's just a million ways to spell Allen. And then Duvall also. D, U, V, A L, L. That could be one D, one L, one, two Ls. You never know. He's born November 6, 1945. Okay. So, you know, kind of post war. Just post war, baby boom. His dad got home and got a plowing, you betcha. He still had his. He still had the top of his Navy uniform on and that dumb fucking hat. He just took those white pants off and went right to work.

[A]

The photographer stopped taking pictures when he dipped and kissed her.

[B]

Well, when he lifted her skirt up. When he lifted her skirt up, the photographer was like, I better turn this way. This is gonna be. This is gonna be salacious. Yeah, they'll never run this on the front page. So he's born in Indiana. His parents are Joe Duvall and Mary Robbins. Alan enters the Navy when he's a young man. Oh, so follows there. I think he's in the late 50s.

[A]

Well, you get 60s, huh?

[B]

Yeah. This would be like 1963, something like that. Terrible timing for Vietnam, by the way. Couldn't be worse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To join the military in 1963 or four, not great.

[A]

Was that a lot of Navy involvement there?

[B]

Fuck yeah. Yeah, tons of. There's a lot of everybody involved. I mean, the army was your main. You're sitting on the front lines, whatever. But the Navy, they were over there. Shit, they were sure as hell sitting over there, you know, doing all that shit.

[A]

So not a lot of fire coming to them, but not too much unless you're in a fucking helicopter, I guess.

[B]

But yeah, or one of the poor bastards in the. When they did the whole bullshit thing of blowing up the ship for. Oh, yeah, one of those poor bastards. So one of his friends said after he got out of the Navy, he worked on the oil field. I think out in Oklahoma or somewhere out west.

[A]

He's choosing some tough gigs, man.

[B]

He just goes west toward the oil fields. That's where he's going.

[A]

Go until it turns brown. Stop there and pull out a drill.

[B]

Go until everything looks dead. And then just start. Start attempting. So he worked for years as a jewelry salesman, also at a Columbus jewelry store in Columbus, Indiana. After that, after it went out of business, then he never really got. He never really had a steady gig from then on out of, like, really didn't work at one place for 10 years or anything like that. After the jewelry store, he went from job to job. He did a lot of maintenance. He did, like, landscaping and maintenance for local hotels.

[A]

It's a tough gig, too.

[B]

Yeah, he lived at a hotel also where he got free room and board for being the maintenance man. So that's what he does. Hey, everybody, Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you the gift to get your mother this year for Mother's Day with an aura frame.

[A]

Auraframes.com Absolutely.

[B]

All the memories, all the magic. You can relive it all the time and do that for your mother. Moms love pictures. They love it. They love seeing pictures of you seeing pictures of your kids, seeing pictures of the family.

[A]

My mom loves this frame.

[B]

Oh, my mom loves it. My dad. Everybody I know loves this frame. They all have it, and it's everybody. It doesn't matter what age they are, anything. Everybody likes this to see pictures. And you can do this and, you know, kind of give mom a sense of that every day. She can look over and see you as a little kid. She can look over, and it's just cool, you know? Give mom that magic that she wants here. You know what I mean? It's cool. We all have, like, those old pictures of our mom, too, when we're kids and stuff. Put those on there. They're a lot of fun. Share the moments with them. And the only way to do it is with an aura frame. It's the best. Aura frames keep these moments alive. Everybody's always looking at it when you're over at the house, oh, there's grandpa. And you keep going. It's cool. And they have free, unlimited storage. You can add as many photos and videos as you want. You can share your photos and videos effortlessly. Download the aura app or text photos straight to your frame. It's the best gift you can do. Make Mother's Day special with aura frames named number one by wirecutter. You can save on the gifts. Mom love by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time, listeners get $25 off their best selling carver frame mat with the code Small Town Murder. That's a U R A frames.com promo code small Town Murder. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[A]

Now back to the show.

[B]

Hey everybody, Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you how to make your cat's litter a little less stinky with actually a lot less stinky with poxy cat.

[A]

Boxycat.com b o x I e cat.com that's right.

[B]

I love my cat. I have a little brandy kitty and she's awesome and we love the cat and she's great. But the only bad thing about having a cat is there is a box that needs to be dealt with. And it needs to be dealt with pretty often. And that's a problem. You can have some smells, you can have things like that. It's tough. But this podcast is sponsored by Boxee and they're gonna fix it for you. Boxee is the last cat litter you'll ever switch to. And their Boxy Pro Deep Clean is the best cat litter money can buy. And they are not kidding. The pro in Boxy Pro stands for probiotics, which Boxy puts right into the litter that just gobbles up odor causing bacteria and keeps the box continuously odor free. Odor free continuously. Not for 10 days, not for 20 days. For infinite days of continual odor. Freshman. And your cat won't smell anything either. As in it's not fake sense or any, you know, things that make the cats sometimes avoid the box if it's stuff they don't like. None of that. They won't do any of that. They go right in there. They love it. And for a limited time, you can get 30% off your first order plus free shipping. When you head to boxycat.com smalltown murder and use the code Small Town Murder. You need to do it. It's the best litter you're going to get. They sent us the boxy cat, the Boxy Pro Deep clean and you can, we can vouch for it. This is good. It's a clean smell. You don't even know your cat's doing anything in there. You're like, are they using the box? What's going on? They're using it. I'm just not smelling it, which is fantastic. And plus, with Boxy, you do not need to do full litter changes. You scoop, you top it off with fresh boxy litter and that's it. It couldn't be any easier. Makes your house smell better. And boxy holds themselves to a higher standard with 100% US sourced clay and thoughtful ingredients with no additives or filters. If you're tired of switching litters, look for the one. Get 30% off your boxy. Order at boxiecat.com smalltown murder and use the code smalltownmurder. That's boxycat.com smalltownmurder and make sure you use our code Smalltown Murder so they know we sent you.

[A]

Now back to the show.

[B]

Now, in spite of this, despite his seeming lack of steady and really substantial income, he apparently really likes fancy things. Everybody says he likes nice things. Oh, fuck.

[A]

Doesn't he?

[B]

Well, some people don't care. Some people don't like fancy things.

[A]

Yeah, I guess that's true, too.

[B]

Some people, if you get him a Rolex, they'd rather have a Casio. It's just the way they are.

[A]

He's got. But he's got a real penchant for it.

[B]

He's got it. Yeah, he wants it. He likes a good car. He likes to wear a little jewelry here and there. Oh, by the way, not even Italian, by the way. From before. Yeah, weird. He strange, right? What's his excuse?

[A]

You guys aren't even privy to this. God damn it.

[B]

So he needed. Yeah, that's a.

[A]

That was before we even started this shit.

[B]

Yeah, it was. Yeah, that was before. It's a long story. That's a long story, guys. But, yeah, anyway, he needed three jobs to keep up with shit sometimes to

[A]

keep up with his spending habits.

[B]

Hey, if you want to have fancy shit and you're willing to work three jobs and make enough money to get it, good for you, you can work five jobs. If you don't mind working five jobs so you can get a nice watch or a necklace or a nice car or whatever the fuck. He's married for a while. He has two sons from his first marriage, and he lived with his wife in Kentucky and ran his own business for a while as well. And that didn't work out. And he ends up back in Indiana after they get divorced. And like I said, he has two sons now. People love the guy. He's described by a lot of people as the life of the party and just a real fun guy to be around. His cousin described him as just a wonderful man. Wonderful. They said he was life of the party, but not obnoxious at all. Just actually making people feel comfortable all the time. Very socially apt and that sort of shit. People who they said he'd also, like, you know, he was very boisterous but not obnoxious. Yeah. And there's a line there. There's a very thin line where that treads into obnoxiousness. Oh, yeah, big time. And he doesn't. Apparently, he stays on the right side of that line. People said that, you know, if you were sad, he'd make you laugh. He'd always be smiling. His one cousin said he was just like an angel. Just the sweet, sweet man that he was. He was always making you laugh. He'd get out on the dance floor with you at the movies and just dance around. What movies have dance floors? Huh? I've seen, like, tables where they bring food in and shit, but.

[A]

Well, maybe they mean, like. Like drive in. Is there a dance thing there? I can't think of another place where there's a movie.

[B]

That's. That's. That's about as good a thing as. I can't think anything better. Yeah, maybe the. I don't know.

[A]

Imagine whatever the dance floor is. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. He'd get you out on the dance floor with you, or he'd get out on the dance floor with you at the movies and just dance around. Take that for whatever it is. I don't know what that means, but apparently he's fun. That's a translation here.

[A]

He's a good time.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, he was just always saying something funny as he gets older, even into, like, the early 2000s. So, you know, he's in his 50s, pushing 60. He's very active. Everybody said he really likes. He likes his cars. He likes hanging out with his family. He plays a lot of weekend pickup basketball games. He loves.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

In his 50s? In his 50s. So, yeah. Oh, God, I hated those guys. Hated playing against those guys. They're the sweatiest men. Their shirts are soaked. Either that or they take their shirt off and you had to have your forearm into their sweaty back hair. Those are the options. Those guys are brutal. I'm not saying that's him, but their body's so slippery. It's slippery and it's heavy in a weird way. And as a teenager, I hated that when the older guys were playing.

[A]

And they always want to lean their shoulders into you, like Shaquille o'. Neal.

[B]

It's like, bro, it's to put their sweat on you. They know you're gonna lean back. Cause. Oh, God. You're not gonna let that touch your face.

[A]

We're not getting paid, man.

[B]

No. Oh, horrible. Especially in Arizona. Horrifying.

[A]

I don't want to on me.

[B]

Oh, God damn. So, yeah, he liked to pick up games of basketball. His one cousin said that's all he'd talk about. He loved playing basketball. His stepbrother said he was one of the best guys you'd ever meet. He also said he never touched drugs, but he does like to drink. That he likes, as we'll talk about. He enjoyed cars as well, is his other passion. He likes cars, particularly loves old Corvettes.

[A]

Really?

[B]

As a guy who was born in 1945, that makes sense because, I mean, when those Corvettes came out, they were.

[A]

These Corvettes were crazy.

[B]

Yeah, there was. I mean, they. It was like an experiment. That car.

[A]

No other car looked like that.

[B]

No. So. So. And I still don't. You got like the 63 with the split window is cool as fuck. And they're. They're cool cars.

[A]

So, I mean, they're. Through their evolution. No car looked like them at all. Even. Even the Camaro, when it had the slanted nose, it's still way the off.

[B]

Yeah. Didn't look like that. No, totally.

[A]

Dodge never had an answer. Ford never had an answer. Foreign cars never had an answer. Until now. Now Corvettes are competing with every supercar on the planet. That's what they are now.

[B]

It was always like a bullet until it. That's what it looked like. And then in the late 70s, they put like a four cylinder in it, for Christ's sake. And that didn't work out well. And then in the 80s you got those terrible. Those terrible fucking square ones from the 80s that are just awful. Yeah. A guy who doesn't pay his alimony drives one of those. You know what I mean?

[A]

I think that's exactly what Sam Kinison died in was an 80s Corvette.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know you're gonna die in it when you get it. It's one of those.

[A]

It's a bad car.

[B]

So. Alan loved his family. People said to loved hanging out with his family here. One of his relatives said he'd just pop in and we'd say we're going to plant a garden today. And he'd just jump in and help.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's what he's into. He's into whatever he also likes. He likes to drink.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Everybody knows he drinks and he wouldn't tell you otherwise. He's not going to say he's a teetotaler by any stretch. He likes to drink. He is the type of guy that people say that you never really see him drunk, but he always Has a beer in his hand. Yeah, I'm gonna call it right now. He's a koozie man. He's a koozie man.

[A]

Unless. Unless it's a mixed drink. But yeah, I'll bet he does have a koozie.

[B]

Always has a beer.

[A]

It's always beers.

[B]

Always beers. He's a beer guy. I mean, he'll drink once in a while. Other shit if other people are drinking it. But you see him, he's got a beer. That's a koozie guy.

[A]

There's a beer in his koozie, in his glove box.

[B]

Because we talked about it. My dad always has a beer in his hand, but he's never drunk. Cause that's koozie. Guys, they have a koozie. Cause it keeps the beer cold. That way.

[A]

They don't.

[B]

Because that's why you end up pounding the beers. Cause it starts to cool down. It starts to warm up a little bit, and you're like, gross. So you drink it before it gets too cold or too warm. But if you have a koozie, you can nurse a beer for two hours and then get another one. You can always have a beer and never get drunk. It's great. So that's what he does. That's what I understand. He's just. But he loves a beer.

[A]

He'll drink all day, but he'll never be noticeably hammered.

[B]

No, no, no, no. He's not a messer. He's never sloppy or anything like that. From what I understand. One of his cousins said, too, at his age, you would have seen. If you would have seen him, you wouldn't have thought he was that old. He was very healthy. Skinny. He was very, very active skinny, too. Yeah. Despite drinking, because he's playing pickup basketball all weekends, and his job is landscaping and physical work. So he stays in pretty good shape. So in 2005, this in shape guy, picture a little bit of gold on him. Fun guy.

[A]

Beer on his breath.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Koozie out of his pocket, asks you if you need one.

[A]

You bet. Corvette keychain hanging out.

[B]

Corvette koozie. You know, that's what's on there.

[A]

Says got that on it.

[B]

Yeah. This Chevy symbol with got vet in the middle. So. But he's an easy Christmas present because, you know, you can just get him some Corvette and he'll.

[A]

Oh, my God, Amazon's full. Full of that guy's gift.

[B]

No problem. Easy done. Now, 2005, he goes to a friend's wedding and meets a lady.

[A]

All right.

[B]

At the wedding. So good for him, he meets a young lady a little bit younger than him, about 13 years younger than him, named Tammy Louise Smith Engelman. Engelman is her. She just got divorced a little while ago, and Engelman's her divorce name, but Tammy Louise Smith. But he meets her, she's a certified nursing assistant, cna. She's a single mother with teenagers, two older, that are kind of out of the house and in college or whatever, and then one that is almost college age.

[A]

So she's in her 30s, almost 40s. Yeah, she's in her 40s.

[B]

58. So she would be 47 at this point. Yeah, she's 40 years. 13 years. Yeah. He's born 45. She's born in 58. Now she's in her late 40s. But she, everybody says is a stunner. Really, She's a real stunner. Her ex husband. Her ex husband has some descriptions about her, but whose ex does? If I asked your ex wife describe Jimmy, you wouldn't want. You would not want what she said being public. I'm sure. And if I asked you. Well, I have. I didn't need to ask you, actually. You just tell me. But if the things you say about her. So, you know, exes you can't really trust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't need to give Jimmy too much prompting. He'll give you his opinion on it.

[A]

Have you ever been married? Boy, have I.

[B]

Boy. Let me tell you something. You turn around, there's a spinning bar stool that's empty. The guy ran away. He's like, oh, he knew it was coming. Have I ever? Let me tell you a story. Hey, where'd you go? Hey. So this is Don Engleman. Her ex husband described her as, quote, a very beguiling, shrewd person.

[A]

Those are not good words.

[B]

Read between those lines, and you barely even have to read between them because the words themselves are pretty close to being between the lines. Anyway, shrewd is what you'd call like a con man who screwed you over. Like a shrewd businessman to me, means he fucks people over to get ahead.

[A]

That's a guy that's into business to a point of stealing yours and not giving a dime of his. That's what that guy is. Yeah.

[B]

He also says, quote, I'm not a psychiatrist, which is a great way to start a sentence, by the way, but

[A]

I feel like she needs one.

[B]

I'm not a doctor, but he said, I'm not a psychiatrist. But she falls under the definition or category of a sociopath trying to figure out how to avoid society's rules and regulations, which is. I could put that description on a lot of people I know.

[A]

Yeah. Sociopath.

[B]

You're always trying to get around something. You know what I mean?

[A]

It also means unfeeling. You don't feel things that normal people feel.

[B]

So more psychopath is not feeling sociopath. No. Empathy.

[A]

That's the word.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Empathy. That's more attached to psychopath. Sociopath is more tenant. It's not a diagnosis. It's features of something. Traits. Trait. It's a trait more than like a psychopath would be a diagnosis, sort of. But sociopath isn't really a diagnosis. Neither is really a psychopath. That's like, you could put a label of that. That person's a psychopath without apathy. A sociopath is a little more nebulous, from what I understand. Again, I'm not a psychiatrist. We're not doctors here by any stretch, everybody.

[A]

I was not diagnosed as one.

[B]

Don't mistake that. We are. I know you were probably watching this, thinking, wow, these two gentlemen are doctors. We're not. I'll tell you right now, they're discussing

[A]

the subtle nuances between psycho. Socio.

[B]

We dropped out, you know, last week of residency, so we're not quite doctors, but. No, we're not doctors and we don't know shit.

[A]

Not to be boring and tedious, yeah,

[B]

but traits of murderers are something that we have studied.

[A]

I'm pretty good at that.

[B]

Yeah. I would say you could put most psychiatrists up against us sitting here, and we'd probably know just as much about a lot of that shit just from doing almost 700 episodes of this. It's a lot. So now Tammy, she's divorced, obviously, but she doesn't look like she's in her late 40s either.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She always wears makeup and wears her hair very careful. Always dressed nicely, and according to other people too, she's been medically enhanced as well. She's had her back, tummy tuck, breast implants and more, the whole nine and quote and more. So I don't know if that's the ass or what, but the lips, she's

[A]

really getting after it.

[B]

Yep. Don Engelman, her ex husband, said she was attractive. She could fix herself up to be a knockout. She was what they call a good catch, according to people in the area. A good looker, as they said. That's her ex husband. A good looker. She's a good looker, everybody.

[A]

He said she's a good catch. Well, here's the thing. I mean, by looks you'd want to fuck her, right? That's what she is.

[B]

That's what he broke it down to. According to her friend, Jennifer Melton. She's also very generous. This is her friend Jennifer. Said, there was one Christmas where I was a little short on money and my kids were younger, and she left $300 for my kids. Tammy always seemed like a really great person and a really great friend. Now it was Jennifer who introduced Tammy to Alan at the wedding. She felt the two. And this wasn't just a random. You know, they were talking, this guy walked up, hey, you don't know Alan. This is Alan. Alan Tam. She purposely went out of her way to make sure to make these two connect.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And to introduce them. She said that she thought they both had matching personalities.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Friendly, outgoing, also very kind. And Alan was also attractive. And he looked younger than he was, too. So she thought, this is a perfect match. One of Alan's ex girlfriends, Maribeth, said he was the type of guy who, when you walked into a room. When he walked into a room, you turned around and noticed. You noticed him.

[A]

Alan was.

[B]

Alan was.

[A]

You rarely hear that about a guy.

[B]

No, exactly. Yeah. Cause who the hell cares? There's a million.

[A]

Yeah, that's not me.

[B]

Whole room's full of dicks. We don't care. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, look, another one.

[B]

Great. And then people said, alan's very confident, and he also has a great ability to make people feel good about themselves and feel good. So these two seem to be a match made in heaven here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they get together and, I mean, they hit it off immediately.

[A]

Good for Al.

[B]

They are into it. Crazy part is they are at the altar getting married in 12 weeks. 12 weeks. That's three months, everybody. That is way too quick. Fast. Imagine that. Three fucking months. I guess if you're older and you think you're. Hey, this is great.

[A]

Yeah. But get me in my 60s and have me look at a gal that looks great naked and wants to show it to me a lot. I'm gonna take her to the altar before she can change her mind.

[B]

That's what I mean. He's 60 years old this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I think if you're older, you might just be like, ah, well, if we get along, what are we wasting time for? I'm 60, you know, so that's it. And they barely knew each other, but they're in there now. Alan's family, according to his cousin, was worried about this marriage from the beginning because it was such a fast thing. Like, what's going on. But, I mean, he is 60s, not only he's 19. Probably make his own decisions by now, I would say. Right.

[A]

He's been in the Navy.

[B]

If not now, when? You know what I'm saying? So anyway, they said they were a little skeptical. His cousin Zyla said, I think Alan's heart was 100% in it. Tammy's, I think she was just in it for one thing.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

There's only two things that women are in this for. Right?

[B]

That's the sad part. As guys, that's what we think. Does she want money or does he have a great dick? Which ones? Yeah, that's pretty funny. No money. All right. They think it's money because Alan looks to be.

[A]

Looks like a million bucks.

[B]

But he also lives in a motel. By the time you marry someone, you know they live in a motel. I would think you'd been to their room. You'd think, this guy isn't wealthy. I get that he has a nice watch and shit, but he probably bought that in better times, you know what I mean? Obviously, this isn't the best time right now, but. Yeah. His cousin Zyla said if you looked at Allen, he looked rich. The way he carried himself, the clothes he wore, the jewelry he wore, he looked rich. But that's it. According to a friend of Alan's, Tammy had likely been attracted to Allen's money and what she thought that he probably had, based on what he looked. Yeah, According to his cousin David, he said after he got out of the Navy, he worked on an oil field, I think, out in Oklahoma, he said, but he was just juggling a bunch of jobs like he wasn't rich at all. So he said that she was barking up the wrong tree, basically. I mean, he lived rent free in a hotel.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah. Good.

[A]

Sick watch, if I had that.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I don't have to pay any rent. Holy shit. I'll tell you, my Corvette would be in top tier shape. He said everyone was really happy for them because they really seemed in love and very, very happy. So we were all like, this is great. It's a friend of his. And he didn't seem like he was being dragged into it. He's the one that proposed within a month of them meeting, and they get married. And the cousin said she wanted a honeymoon and she wanted to go to Hawaii.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's what she wanted. And so they went. Now they went on Tammy's credit card. That's how they did this. Tammy, you didn't know, this is interesting. Yeah. So they have a great time. When the honeymoon ended, apparently she expected. According to her people that know her, she expected Allen to reimburse her for what she'd spent on the trip.

[A]

Yeah, but what's yours is mine. What's mine is yours.

[B]

Yeah, so she's like, at least, you know, half of it. Whatever. She also demanded that he move out of this hotel where he lived for free and buy a house with her. Let's get a big home in a nice neighborhood. This is ridiculous. We need to. She still has a daughter living at home, you know, so she wanted that. The cousin said he knew it was over his means, and it was over her means. They both knew it, but he did it for her.

[A]

He bought the house.

[B]

So he bought a house. He's gonna figure out how to pay for it. Essentially. Yeah. Which is tough. The one thing that she couldn't really get Alan to do because she. I mean, think about it. She can pretty much direct him where she wants. And if you love somebody, you'll listen to them is part of it too.

[A]

Yeah. There's compromise. There's a talk. And figuring out common ground, so.

[B]

But she could not get him to stop drinking. Yeah. She didn't want him to drink. And he was like, oh, no, I drink. That's what I've done. This is what I. Yeah, a long time. This is part of my personality. You know what I mean?

[A]

This is not changing.

[B]

No. See this koozie, the Corvette on it? These are the two things I like. I'm a koozie man. He's in there.

[A]

I can't not drink. I'm a koozie man.

[B]

What am I gonna do with all these koozies?

[A]

What am I gonna put in these?

[B]

I mean, what am I gonna lose?

[A]

Change?

[B]

Make them into flower pots? I can do nothing with these things. It's a bunch of. What is that? Like, neoprite or whatever the fuck it's called?

[A]

It's neoprene of some sort.

[B]

Neoprene?

[A]

I don't think it's biodegradable. I think it sticks around forever.

[B]

I think you gotta dispose of them in the same place you put batteries, right?

[A]

Yeah. Otherwise a turtle will get it stuck in his face. Yeah.

[B]

There's koozie recycling centers you can go to and special. Like the battery ones.

[A]

Yeah. They chip them up and pave freeways with them.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. They use it as mulch. Sometimes I feel like it's cushy. So he said, this is. A friend of his, said this man who drank very often. Every time I saw him, he had a beer in his hand. Yeah, that's fair. Now Tammy's got her youngest daughter still living at home. When they get married, this daughter will be a constant source of problems for Alan and Tammy here. Lot of friction. Apparently she's very disrespectful toward him, which. She's 16. And now I'm stepdad. Yeah, sorry, dude, I don't know you. You met my mom three fucking months ago. It's not like they've been dating for a few years. And you're used to him. He's just some guy you just met and now this is your new dad or this is your stepdad. I'm fuck out of here.

[A]

I've seen her tits more than you have. Shut up.

[B]

Yeah, fuck that. Yeah, that's ridiculous. So I don't think I would have reacted well to that as a 16 year old.

[A]

I don't know that I'd be like,

[B]

strange guy coming in.

[A]

Yeah, we're not gonna be pals.

[B]

Yeah, you're not gonna tell me what to do. Certainly. No, you've earned none of that.

[A]

Is there a koozie in your pocket? Get the fuck outta here.

[B]

No, I don't need a koozie. I'm fine right now. I'm 16, I can't even drink beer. So she disrespected him a lot. And Tammy spoiled her kids from what people said too. And said that she let her daughter treat Alan like complete shit. She didn't say, hey, yeah, he doesn't tell you what to do and everything, but at least respect him for the guy who owns the fucking house with me and helps pay the mortgage. And she didn't do that. So Tammy's daughter was an issue. And Alan's drinking and Tammy is pissed off at that. And Tammy's got a problem of her own and it's spending. She doesn't drink, she likes to spend money. She's a shopper.

[A]

Shit.

[B]

And she likes to do that. She likes to get clothes all the time. She'll go out on huge shopping sprees that she can't afford. Absolutely. Financially, they're in deep shit. They have creditors calling all the time.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

It's not good.

[A]

It's so new.

[B]

This is immediately. I mean, we're talking car payments, overdue credit cards, this, that, everything overdue. The house is getting close to pushing into the foreclosure area already. It's not good. Also, the youngest daughter's going to go off to college. And the tuition was coming due and they didn't have that either. And it's a lot. Now Alan recently had started a new job with a glass installation company. This is at the request of Tammy. Also Tammy wanting him to stop bouncing around from job to job and get a solid career that she can count on, that he'll be there and she'll know his salary and they'll know what he's going to make every year and all that kind of shit. So he does that, he tries to placate her and do that and everything like that. Now Tammy, she likes to shop, like I said, she likes clothes, she likes plastic surgery, she likes expensive shit that makes her look better, that's what she likes. So she started hitting the mall all the time, just shopping it up. And she kept a secret bank account, but that doesn't really matter because there's not. Basically she's got bills that she can't pay that are normal bills. And then she's trying to also run up credit cards on clothes and shit like that. They said she had clothes she never even took out of the closet.

[A]

She has money to make a secret bank account when we don't have enough money to pay for the other accounts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean this is like an addiction. Like if he was putting money aside for like pills or something, you know what I mean, or whatever the fuck, it'd be a similar thing. And this is her thing here. And her ex husband said she would get it under control for a little bit and then she'd turn right back around and just start over again like people, like addicts do. That's what happens. So he said that was pretty tough. So they're a year into their marriage, this is early 2007 and they're bickering all the time. Tammy and Alan just more fighting than anything else is what a friend said. They're just fighting constantly. Now Tammy's family owns a pretty substantially sized farm, pretty big farm. And she told Alan she's gonna one day inherit this whole thing. So Alan was like, oh, that's also here. There's money down the line, some relief eventually, but I mean, who knows how long her parents will live. That could be. Forget it. So during all this there's a lot of turmoil. They've only been married a year and change. There's a bunch of turmoil, financial turmoil, just a lot of things fighting with them, it's ugly. With the teenage daughter bickering, things aren't great.

[A]

It's a 90 day relationship turned into a marriage that's not good.

[B]

That's crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. It's funny because if you watch 90 Day Fiance, you go, this is too soon. It's just too soon. And those people knew each other sometimes for years, online and over video chats and all that shit for years. And you still go, this is way too soon.

[A]

Too soon.

[B]

This is incredibly too soon. They never even saw each other before they met. That's crazy. So she ends up. Here's the problem. She has a patient of hers as a CNA who's an older guy. And this patient's son is an insurance agent named Gary Ruddle. R U D D E L L and this Gary Ruddle comes to see his father or mother or whoever's in there that she's working on. And Tammy takes a liking to Gary. Oh, boy. So much so that they're having a pretty torrid affair pretty quickly.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. The neighbors started noticing a man coming and going from the house during the day while Alan's at work.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

So one of the neighbors told Alan about. It was like, hey, you know. Which, by the way, that is how a murder suicide with people that I know happened up the street from me.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Was exactly. That was somebody. Don't tell them, hey, what's the words we always say to people? The big three words.

[A]

Mind your fucking business.

[B]

Your business. Mind your fucking business. All of you. I know you want to help, and that's great, and that's a nice instinct, but you don't know what this could unravel. You know what I mean?

[A]

They'll figure it out. And when they do, that's on them.

[B]

It's none of your goddamn business either way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a neighbor, well, he comes to

[A]

you and says, did you ever see her funk? Oh, I thought you knew.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

What are you talking about, bro? It was so fucking obvious.

[B]

I figured it was a. You know, it's. Hey, your guys's business. I don't know what you guys are into, you know, I don't know.

[A]

Relationships happen nowadays. It's fine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but this happened a while ago, around Christmas, actually. People I met at a Christmas party there. Exact same thing, two days before. Two days before. Except the opposite of this because they had been married for 40 something years, almost 50 years, rather than, you know, barely knew each other and. Same thing.

[A]

He caught it.

[B]

He came home and it was a murder suicide. And it was ugly.

[A]

Sold all his tools or gave them away.

[B]

Gave them away. Yeah. Yeah. It's a crazy thing. I was just telling people it's the shop, you know, Take my tools. Okay? You know that something's going to happen if somebody's giving their. All the tools of their trade away, right?

[A]

Nobody gives away all of their tools. Even the Crescent. Even the Crescent. All right? What's the matter with you?

[B]

While they're sobbing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

The star tools, the hex heads, you're giving me those, too?

[B]

Come on. All of them. No, no, no, I'm not buying it. Yeah. Hey, let's sit down.

[A]

Let's have a beer. I got a koozie.

[B]

Hey, this one's for you. This one's for you. Hands it out. Hey, hold on a minute. There you go. Hey, what do you want? What do you want? Corvette or Chevy logo? Which one? I'll let you pick.

[A]

Corvette or just all Chevy products encompassed?

[B]

Yeah, just a straight Chevy one.

[A]

That's a sketch.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Yeah, that's a mental health. Immense mental health scan.

[B]

Yes, it is just always scary.

[A]

Ta da.

[B]

And scene. What do you think, guys? Good.

[A]

My wife and kids survive. All because he had two koozies.

[B]

He had multiple koozies. See what happens when you bring koozies around? This is why my father's lived a long and happy life, I think, because he's always got multiple koozies on him. So Alan comes home and catches Tammy in the middle of it in. Oh, yeah.

[A]

No, catches somebody else in the middle of it.

[B]

Well, she's in there, too, certainly.

[A]

But he's in between it.

[B]

So she. His name is Gary Ruddell, of course, as we met. Or Gary Ruddle there, the insurance salesman, one of Tammy's sons, our patient's sons. And there they go. Alan finds out about it and he decides that the only thing he really does to Recti. Doesn't leave or anything, but he closes their joint bank account and opens a bank account solely in his name. Like, okay, well, you're not shopping with my money anymore, essentially. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a much better way to feed your dog with Ollie.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Right?

[B]

It is really great. We love Ollie. I mean, we love this food, the food that they have fresh recipes developed by real chefs, backed by vet nutritionists. They are obsessed with making the best meals of the highest in quality, quality ingredients.

[A]

Right?

[B]

These are meals you will be jealous of your dog. That's the sad part. I put it in there and I'm like, well, that looks better than what I'm eating. That's not fair.

[A]

How many veggies do you eat? Because my dog eats a lot.

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[A]

Now back to the show.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about Chime Chime.com Absolutely. Don't you want a bank that's on your side? That's what chime is. They're gonna get you your paycheck early and you can get rid of all these ridiculous fees. This is what you need. These are people that are on your side. Go with chime, everybody. Chime is changing the way people Bank. They offer the most rewarding fee for free banking. This is fee free banking. It's built for you, everybody and me and Jimmy and everyone. It's built for us as people. They're not like traditional old banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. They have thousands of fee free ATMs. Why do you want to pay to get your own money? It's your money. You put it in there. You don't need to pay to get it out. It's built for you. Not some 1% people out there. For real people, Chime members can benefit from up to $1,150 in annual rewards fee free. It's awesome. It's the best. Direct deposit unlocks the most rewarding way to bank at Chime. Chime is rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. Real humans 24 7, you're not just going to be switching banks. What you're doing is you're upgrading to America's number one choice for banking. With a chime checking account. Get 5% cash back on Chime card. In a category of your choice like gas or groceries, you get savings that grow faster with 3.75% APY. That's good stuff. Can't beat that. And that's nine times higher than the national average. That's real. That's real money in your pocket. Plus you get premium travel perks like airport lounge access and 247 travel concierge included with your Chime card. You can even get up to $500 of your pay when you sell. When you say with my pay. So they also have Spot me which lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. This is the only way to go, everybody. There is no reason to pay ridiculous fees. There's no reason to get your money later. There's no reason for any of it. Chime just does it better so you can do this. It's so much better than what you're going to have. We love Chime. It's awesome. So get in there and do it. Chime is not just smart, harder banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com smalltown murder that is chime.com smalltown murder it only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services from MyPay and Chimecard provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Stated annual percentage yield and Cash back for Chime prime only. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on a J.D. power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, MyPay, Spot Me and travel perks, go to Chime.com disclosures this show Small Town Murder is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com you know it, because we all have problems and we all have stresses and we all could use somebody to talk to. And better help is the place to go. And especially when you're having financial stress that's bearing down upon you, that's, that's

[A]

so much, you already feel terrible. And then the financial stress stress just makes you feel like even more worthless.

[B]

You can't sleep at night. It's horrible. It keeps you awake. And really it affects more than just your bank account. It takes a serious toll on your mental health and your relationships. 88% of Americans feel some form of financial stress starting out in 2026. That's crazy. And that's. It's tough, man. You gotta, it can, it can bring you down. And money worries bring anxiety, sleep disruption, depression, one of the leading sources of conflict for couples as well. That happens so much. So this month we want to normalize the emotional weight of financial stress and remind you, and remind everybody that struggling with money doesn't mean that you failed. Sometimes it's about accessing the right kind of support and God, we know that therapy is everything. It's incredible. And whatever your problems are, whether they are financial, romantic, health, anything, it really, really helps family conflicts. It helps so much just to talk to somebody. They have quality therapists at Better Help. They work according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work with you to get you with a therapist that's going to work for you so you can, you know, concentrate on what you're doing. They just do a short questionnaire, helps identify your needs and preferences. They have over 12 years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate. So they'll figure that out and who to hook you up with. But if they don't get it right the first time, doesn't matter. You can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. It's phenomenal.

[A]

And with no additional charge either.

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That's the thing. They just want you to get some help and get better. Your financial stress doesn't need more stress because you don't like your therapist. You know what I mean? With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. They served over 6 million people globally. And it really works. They have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Small Town Murder. That's Better H lp.com Smalltown Murder now

[A]

back to the show.

[B]

He's pissed off, basically. And apparently he makes more money than her. CNAs do not make a lot of money at all.

[A]

No, that's the bottom rung of nursing.

[B]

Yeah. Very little money.

[A]

They're literally ass wipers. That's what they do.

[B]

A lot of it. I mean, they do.

[A]

They do tough.

[B]

They do a lot. If you've ever.

[A]

It's a lot of bottom rung work. They don't do IVs, they're just doing.

[B]

And that's not to disrespect it, because if you've ever had a parent or a grandparent or anybody relative in any kind of like long term care or anything like that, these are the people that, that keep them alive and keep them running and everything else.

[A]

But the point is that that job for your, for your RN thing or on your way back down.

[B]

Why would you go back down?

[A]

Like if you, if you, if you're done nursing and you just get a

[B]

sitcom and then you, from there you do this and then you're back to stand up on the.

[A]

You've lost your audience.

[B]

That's not how real jobs work.

[A]

It's when an RN is caught in a sex scandal.

[B]

Yeah. Then they knock you down to it

[A]

when they're caught DMing people on Snapchat.

[B]

And then after that it's a CNA. What's the middle rung? Because there's a CNA and an RN. Yeah, yeah. There you go. They become an LPN, they go back down again. That's very, very sad. Downfall of nurses there. That is. You go back down. You said it like it was a comedy club. This is where you either come up or go back down, guys.

[A]

Ah, it's so fun.

[B]

Oh, the Chuckle Factory in Toledo. Yeah, that's an up or down. You know, not when you're up here.

[A]

Yeah, you get on the way up. You'll see. Yeah, you'll see Paulie Shore there this weekend. You might see somebody that's gonna be on Saturday Night Live in six years.

[B]

It's possible. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Or just got off of Saturday Night Live, which I've seen from people, you know, so Anyway, that's what's going on here, Alan. And they're, you know, they're fighting a lot. Basically. He's. Apparently, he moves out of the house. But this is not to end it. He wants a reconciliation.

[A]

He wants to fix this.

[B]

Yeah. He's still coming over to mow the lawn and do all that shit. He still helps out around the house, and he tells his friends that they're getting back together. They're just going through a rough patch. Poor Al. That's where Gary. That's where Gary was in the middle of, too. A rough patch. He was in there, too. That's in the rough over there. So Tammy was telling friends that she wanted Gary and that she was done with Alan and that she's not getting back together with him at all.

[A]

She's just taking the.

[B]

Yeah, the lawn mowing. Now, there's an incident here where Tammy allegedly gets a call from her youngest daughter, the one who still lives at home, claiming Allen was drinking and hit her.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which kind of goes against what everybody says of his character. But when people are drinking, you never know. Anything's possible.

[A]

She's also a disrespectful little shit. So maybe he got drunk and she mouthed off and he.

[B]

If you got a mouthy teenager and a person who, you know, drinks all the time, you could see something happening there. 2 and 2 equals 4 there. But.

[A]

And he may not have even hit her. He just may have walked through a door and went, nah. Just made contact with her face.

[B]

The officers who responded to the call found no marks because she reported to the police that he was drunk and violent. The cops came, they found no marks at all on Tammy's daughter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they filed no charges or did nothing because they said. And this is in the 2000s. So they said, this is bullshit, and they left. They didn't think that anything happened. But Alan spent the night at a hotel at the request of the authorities, and then he returned home. This is when he moves out for good. For a while. He returned home to find that the locks had been changed.

[A]

Oh, what?

[B]

Yeah. So now they are. It's not quite their second wedding anniversary, and they already have changed locks, which is a game. Yeah, but Alan wanted to make this work. His friend said, I think Alan truly loved Tammy, and when you truly love someone, it's hard to cut that off. Now, Tammy has some problems at her job. She was working at Miller's Merry Manor, which is a nursing home in Columbus. And the charge, nurse, Charles Rose, his talk show was on hiatus, so he was doing this.

[A]

Did he get fired? Unceremoniously, Charlie, Yes.

[B]

He had some accusations. Let's just say maybe this is what he's doing now. This is what he was doing in 2007. He was still in a black background talking to celebrities, though, so he's on the way back down. That's how it works. First you have your own talk show and then you have to be a charge nurse. And then if you fuck up more, you're a cna, then you're out of the business. That's how it works.

[A]

It's over. It's over.

[B]

And if you want to have your own talk show for decades at a time, you gotta start as a cna. That's how it goes. That's the way up the rungs. That's it.

[A]

It's not our rules. We just live by them.

[B]

So Charles Rose said that he left a nearly full bottle of Roxanol R O X a N O L on a hospice patient's bedside table. Now, Roxanol is insanely strong liquid morphine.

[A]

And you say, is it syrup? It is syrup.

[B]

It's. It comes in an eyedropper, an eyedropper bottle with a lavender colored liquid. And it is, apparently, it's insane. It's used for dying patients in extreme pain in their last days of lives. Yeah, it's literally you're dying of cancer, some horrible disease, and it's to just make you comfortable for your last couple days as you die. That's what it's for. And from what I understand, they say a lot of times, sometimes people who are in really bad states, they give them a little bit of extra of this to kind of push it along a little bit too. They kind of push the envelope of what they can give them to put them out of their misery type of deal. So that's what it's used for. It's extremely potent. A therapeutic dose is measured in the low hundreds of nanograms per milliliter.

[A]

Tiny bits.

[B]

Very, very, very tiny doses.

[A]

This shit is strong.

[B]

Now this Charlie Rose went to get the bottle after lunch. He realized he left it there and was like, oh, shit. And it was gone.

[A]

No.

[B]

Now, Tammy was the only staff member present in the wing at that time, but they didn't have any evidence she took it or anything. And when asked, Tammy said she never even saw the bottle. Has no idea what anybody's talking about. Didn't see it. I don't know. I was over in the other part of the wing. I have no clue. She suggested Maybe a visitor took it. That's possible. Somebody came in to visit anybody. She said this patient's daughter comes to visit all the time. Maybe it's the daughter that did it. But Charlie, it.

[A]

And at that point, it's much less the who took it and more the who the fuck left it out to be taken.

[B]

Well, that's a problem. Who left it out? It all looks. This is all terrible and irresponsible. And now Charlie Rose knew that the daughter couldn't have done it, cuz the daughter's a schoolteacher who never visits during the day. Oh, until the. I mean, it could have been a half day. These kids have so many half days, by the way. And days off and days off. It's crazy how many half days and days off. I'm like, they just don't. What's the point? God damn it.

[A]

The half day for my daughter is literally an hour less. It's like, why don't we just stay? What are we doing?

[B]

What are we doing? Yeah, why bother?

[A]

This is so dumb.

[B]

Unless they're getting out at like 11am what are we talking about?

[A]

Yeah, it fucks my whole day to get there earlier. It ruins everything.

[B]

It's hard now. The director of nursing at Miller's Mary Manor later told investigators the last day she worked for us, we were really concerned because we had a bottle of morphine sulfate turn up missing.

[A]

And now morphine's gone.

[B]

Yeah. Now there's another issue here. In the summer of 2007. So this is months later. That was March of 2007. In the summer of 2007, Tammy had left that job. She apparently was at Allen's cousin's house, Zyla Thompson, who we got a lot of quotes from. Apparently Zyla would always leave a large bottle of Flexeril on the table just inside her front door. Oh, in case she was out of, like mini Snickers during Halloween. You gotta give the kids something. They'll throw eggs at your house. You know what I mean?

[A]

Is it Flexrol? Like for Flexoril?

[B]

Yeah, it's a muscle relaxer. Yeah. And a prescription. One it's not. You can't buy it over the counter, nothing like that. It's strong shit. So she leaves that for some reason. Always just leaves a big bottle of it there. Just in case. In case anybody needs a Flexeril. Or two. She had a block party during this time that both Alan and Tammy attended. This is whether they talk for a minute, then they're mad at each other and they talk and they're Mad now, after the party, the Flexeril is way less full than it was before the party, which, I mean, that shows it's a good party, right?

[A]

Shows that that shit works.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. She says that she estimated this is how big this bottle of Flexeril is, by the way. She estimated somewhere between 100 to 200 pills were gone.

[A]

What, you get this from Costco?

[B]

That's what I mean. It's gotta be the size of like a fucking protein jug.

[A]

A creatine junkie.

[B]

It's gotta be ridiculous.

[A]

Does it have a scoop inside too?

[B]

It does be good. What? I got about 30, 40 of them in there and you scoop it into your morning shake. I don't know what's going on, but that's a lot of pills right there. I don't know what the average prescription is, but it's gotta be less than 200 pills, right?

[A]

I can't imagine. You got. Why did she have that 200 pill? This can't be a prescription one.

[B]

How unrelaxed are her muscles?

[A]

Yeah, how fucking tight are you, lady?

[B]

What the fuck? So early August 2007, okay, so that goes by. So now Tammy's been around drugs disappearing in two separate places, okay? Now when Tammy, Tammy invites Allen over and says, listen, you need to come over and sign some papers. It's related to mortgage insurance, so you need to sign it. It's important. She told him that, listen, once the daughter moves out and goes to college, maybe we can try and reconcile this and see if it works together if we're here by ourselves and all that kind of thing. But you need to sign this mortgage insurance paper. That's going to help out a lot too.

[A]

And also after the mortgage crisis, they were making us have fucking insurance.

[B]

Exactly. In 2007. It makes sense this whole time. And so he said he would sign the mortgage insurance policy, no problem. Basically, one of them said, quote, he couldn't move home. This is somebody they knew. He couldn't move home until he could prove. Oh, this is Tammy. I'm sorry. He couldn't move home until he could prove to me that number one, he could hold down a job for a long period of time and get good evaluations. She's looking at his fucking.

[A]

What?

[B]

She's looking at his quarterly fucking. Yeah, we're looking at my report check ins over here.

[A]

What are we doing?

[B]

And that he had to not necessarily quit drinking totally, but not drink on a daily basis.

[A]

Okay, There needs to be some improvement, some improvement shown.

[B]

And somebody said later, she said that she Was encouraging Alan to go home and said he would later. And he was drinking and drinking quite heavily. This was after the insurance thing. So he signs the paper and then he's leaving now. Also there while he signs the paper, Gary Ruddle.

[A]

Yeah. Cause he wrote the insurance policy.

[B]

He wrote the policy. I'm not signing shit. Well, I call this guy balls deep because I found him balls deep in my life. I'm not signing shit. Where you get a cut. You get commission off of this. Fuck you.

[A]

I'm not signing anything with the donut filler here.

[B]

No, not at all. Yeah, so anyway, that's what's going on here. And he's telling friends and coworkers that once the daughter goes off to college, we're gonna get back together and everything's gonna be fine. And the daughter's going to college, like in September. So this is early August, so it's happening. But he also said that he was getting kind of suspicious of Tammy and her motivations. He told apparently, friends and neighbors in August, basically, and in July of 2007, that if you ever find me dead, just make sure it's thoroughly investigated. That's all. I'm in pretty good shape, besides the drinking, so, you know, that's what he said, man. Make sure they thoroughly investigate it. If I get found dead. In a weird way, that seems to

[A]

be a very common thing to say to people nowadays.

[B]

People say that all the time.

[A]

I've heard it but so many times in these stories. Dateline 48 hours, I think our last

[B]

story, somebody said that. Yeah, fun.

[A]

Dead. They did it. Or have a look at them or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, they even. Yeah, who. Who to look at? They even. Give you a goddamn. I'll give you a lead on my future murder investigation.

[A]

It'll tell you to look at. Even Chris Watts's wife said that. A Shenan lady said it.

[B]

It happens all the time. It really does. Now, August 23rd, 2007. Okay, Alan comes over to Tammy's home here on Lake Crest Drive, the family house, okay? Now, Tammy asked him to come over to work on an air conditioning unit that wasn't working right in the Indiana heat in August. It's sticky in Indiana. Real sticky. So Tammy made dinner for him and them. That's nice of her. She describes the dinner as chicken salad, fresh fruits and vegetables, and her signature dessert. This is her dessert that she loves. It's her jam, and it is chocolate dirt pudding. Why does all these. Why do they have to have terrible names? All these desserts? It's a dump Cake. It's a shit pile.

[A]

It's a fucking dump cake sore.

[B]

It's all, that's all in our dirt. I don't want any of that. I want none of that shit.

[A]

Yeah. And that dirt pie or dirt pudding, whatever the fuck. It's not your recipe.

[B]

No.

[A]

Stop acting like you're so special. You crumbled up some fucking cookie on some jello yogurt. Jello pudding. Stop.

[B]

It's Oreo.

[A]

Acting like you did this.

[B]

Oreo cookie crumbles, obviously. Vanilla pudding and cream cheese. Whoa. She really. Wow.

[A]

Boy, did you go crazy on your three ingredients.

[B]

She came to the fork in the road and went straight, man. Just blew my mind right there. Did you see that? Holy cow.

[A]

With an armful of three things from the grocery store.

[B]

And cream cheese. Oh, no. Now see, that's what that done blowed my mind right there.

[A]

And cream cheese, jello pudding, Philadelphia cream cheese, Oreo cookies. You're telling me. You combine those and it's delicious.

[B]

Wait a second. Cream cheese. You put cream cheese in there and it was good.

[A]

What she's saying is

[B]

unbelievable.

[A]

Boy. Mind blowing.

[B]

Mind blowing.

[A]

Wait a second. Eddie Crocker.

[B]

Yeah. So she makes his plate. He takes a couple of bites of the chicken salad, one slice of tomato, and then goes to the pudding and eats some of the pudding also. She says she made him two Long island iced teas. I don't want you to drink anymore. Let me make you the drink with the most booze in it possible.

[A]

All the alcohol.

[B]

What is that? You're sending mixed signals. If you're making someone who you want to quit drinking. A Long Island.

[A]

I, I don't think there's an ingredient in that that doesn't have booze in it.

[B]

No, it's all booze. Yeah. Well, this is the thing that you're gonna get the sweet from. Oh. It's booze still. And then the acidity is from this.

[A]

The brown is soda. And that's what makes it look like tea. But everything else is just booze.

[B]

Yeah. So he starts to get hot and goes outside. He goes outside to cool down. He sits down in the lawn chair on the back porch outside to cool down. A little bit stuffy in the house. He came to fix an air conditioner.

[A]

He's got a nice tea and he

[B]

falls asleep in the chair out back on the lawn chair, which plenty of 60 year old guys have a couple of drinks after dinner and fall asleep on a nice comfy lawn chair. That'll happen.

[A]

Fall asleep where I sit?

[B]

Yeah. Yep. So 8:04am the next morning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, August 24th, Tammy calls 911. Uh oh, okay. Now 911 calls. She says emergency 911, which is. They got 91 1. She says emergency 91 1.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Domino's Pizza. Domino's Pizza, yeah, that's what we said. She said, yes, my name is Tammy Duvall, I live at Lake Crest Drive and I think my husband is dead. That's what she says. She tells the operator he's a heavy drinker. She says that he came over the night before to fix an air conditioner. This is on the phone to 911. She's giving the whole story.

[A]

This is not necessary.

[B]

Nope. She said he became overheated, he went outside to cool down, and she went and ended up falling asleep. And she found him in the chair. The next morning. This is what happened.

[A]

What are you doing?

[B]

So 8:20, the first responders arrive and it's a quiet neighborhood, everything like that. They get there, they find him slumped down in a lawn chair on the back porch. No signs of a struggle, no signs of violence, no torn shirt and some blood on him or anything like that. The back porch is basically a concrete slab, just a little concrete slab. Had a couple of lawn chairs. And that's where he was sitting. Eyes closed, not moving. There he is, 61 years old and dead as shit. Damn it. They said no blood, no signs of a struggle, no torn clothing, no defensive wounds, nothing to indicate violence of any kind. They said you could tell his color was off, but they said the position he was in looked peaceful. Looked like a guy who looked like he fell asleep and didn't wake up.

[A]

Comfortable, man, Comfortable. Damn nice chair.

[B]

The responding officer said, this is the healthiest dead person I think I've ever seen. There's no sign of trauma to the body.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

So there we go. Police photographs show him in the chair. His shirt is off, but we assume that cause he's hot. So you take his shirt off first. It's August. Yeah, they said he just looks like he's fine. Now, the initial ruling is probably accidental. Alcohol poisoning mixed with heat exhaustion.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They said you mix those two together and you get a guy who's 60 years old, drinks a little too much, especially a bunch of different liquors in one drink, and then the heat exhaustion, and that's what happens in the chair.

[A]

You're liable to never wake up again.

[B]

That's it. Poor guy's dead, that's all. So they kind of think, oh, that's tragic. That sucks.

[A]

Terrible even.

[B]

Yeah, it happens. It happens. So this is the same day, August 24th, same goddamn day that they found him in the chair. Tammy is already on the phone trying to arrange cremation. Oh, that day.

[A]

We're gonna burn them up now.

[B]

Yes. She said she wanted it done today.

[A]

Oh, can we do that today?

[B]

Yeah. Cause obviously cremation isn't something you make an appointment for six months in the future. They work on a generally fast. However comes schedule. Yeah. So usually it's tomorrow or two days from now or the funeral's this day. Have it done before then. Instead, she said, I need it done today, now. Right now. And they said that was really weird. Especially because Alan owned a burial plot that he wanted to be buried in.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Then what the fuck?

[B]

Which is strange. He had told members of his family he bought a burial plot and he wants a military funeral because he was in the Navy. So he wants the whole thing with the flag and all that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, there's no reason to say spend any money on anything.

[B]

And they'll do that for you.

[A]

The government will do that.

[B]

Trust me. Yeah, my cheap ass grandmother definitely took advantage of those things for her dead husbands. She said she wanted it done that day. And the detective in this situation who had just looked over the scene, because they have to have a dead. They have to have a detective sign off on a dead person that it's not a homicide and they can bag him up. Basically this detective said she wanted to have it done that day and I had to try to stop it somehow. Wow. Now that's tough. Because she is the woman's husband or the man's husband. They're not legally separated or anything like that. She has all the rights of a spouse. So he didn't know. This is Detective Mark Crutchen and he's a veteran guy and he said something just didn't smell right. Why does he need to be cremated right this second when he owns a burial plot?

[A]

Trying to get an Amazon prime cremation deal done?

[B]

Yeah, I need it done today. No, same day. Same day.

[A]

Right now.

[B]

Right now. Domino's cremation, they call 30 minutes or less.

[A]

I need it by 4pm

[B]

The 911 call itself was just off to him. Just thought it was off. He said it wasn't anything that you could name anything or you said, oh, she said that that's wrong. But he said it was just a weird vibe. And it was. Something about it just seemed staged.

[A]

Just kind of the whole whole thing,

[B]

this performed or something. The tone she had was of a woman who knew approximately what was about to happen versus a woman who had genuinely stumbled upon her husband's dead body. It didn't seem to him like she was just like, oh my God, where's my husband call? I don't know, blah, blah, blah. It seemed like someone who was very controlled and whatever. But you'd also think that someone from a hospice nurse or a nursing home nurse. Death is not a oh my God panic thing if she walks in and finds somebody dead. You know, I get this as your husband, but you'd still, your initial reaction wouldn't be that initial normal freak out people have when they see a dead body.

[A]

And she's very well aware of the process of how this happens because she has absolutely changed a bedpan. Come back 30 minutes later and that person is no longer there for sure.

[B]

Yep. So they said within the first hours he places a hold on the cremation. So he gets that, gets an order to stop that and he orders an autopsy to be done. And he'd like a background investigation on Tammy just based on her suspicious actions here. So then he starts getting phone calls.

[A]

From who?

[B]

Well, from a lot of people. Number one, from Alan's cousins, from Tammy's ex husband, from Tammy's own daughter, from Tammy's son in law, the daughter, not the one from the house, the one who's already moved out of the house. All of them said, look at Tammy,

[A]

have a look, see it mom, look,

[B]

just keep an eye on her. So that's when he puts the hold on the cremation and orders the autopsy. And he said he listened to the 911 call over and over and over again. And he said it just didn't seem right. He said that or this is. Court documents later on said several of Tammy and Allen's family members contacted the Columbus Police Department to convey their suspicions. And that's when this all happened. Now he's gotta wait for autopsy results because that takes a while and get toxicologies and all that kind of thing. So while they're waiting, Tammy keeps asking when the department plan to close this investigation because it's fucking up her efforts to get the life insurance policy to cash in. It's like I can't cash in until you close this thing. So is this almost over or what? What are we doing here? Then the autopsy comes back. Now, number one, blood alcohol level is insane, really insane.

[A]

0.4. That is a hammered individual.

[B]

That is so.

[A]

That's so deadly.

[B]

That is, I believe higher than John Bonham had when he died.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Who was the. Led Zeppelin's drummer who was famous for being the craziest alcoholic on earth, and he died with, I think, less than that in his system. If you don't know who Led Zeppelin is, let's see how to explain that.

[A]

Best cover band of all time.

[B]

Yeah. So it's insane. It's an insane amount of booze in your system.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My mom ruined.08 is legal.

[A]

Yeah. My mom ruined Thanksgiving or an Easter by going to a wedding and being taken to the hospital with a 0.4 and nearly died.

[B]

That is. You're lucky to not die.

[A]

Danger. Yeah. She was in bed for, like, four days afterwards drinking nothing but Gatorade and then throwing it up, I bet.

[B]

And that was consistent with Tammy's account that he's a heavy drinker. He's always drinking. She made him Long island iced teas and all that kind of shit. And who knows what he drank before he came over. So that's consistent. But then they get to the rest of the autopsy. They found that he has 6590 nanograms per milliliter of morphine in his system.

[A]

That doesn't happen naturally.

[B]

The therapeutic maximum is about 60 nanograms per milliliter. And he has what, 6,000, 590.

[A]

Literally 1,000 times more.

[B]

100 times the therapeutic dose. Yeah, 100 times the therapeutic dose, which is insane. Also cyclobenzaprine, which is Flexoril. Flexeril. Remember that he has 3,229 nanograms per milliliter, which is about eight times the therapeutic dose.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Now, some people, if you take a lot of Flexeril, maybe you could probably get up to a tolerance of that and be fine. But 100 times the therapeutic dose of morphine will kill you so much, period. Yeah. So the pathologist confirms that Alan died of a morphine overdose.

[A]

Not even the booze.

[B]

Not even the booze. They said the alcohol and muscle relaxants were contributing factors. Just basically made a huge. He said this would have rendered him unconscious almost immediately and it would basically kind of cut off his respiratory system from the inside.

[A]

Close it down.

[B]

Yeah, and screw them all up.

[A]

That is not two long islands either.

[B]

No, that is way more than that. They also said that his stepbrother Henry said, my brother enjoys a drink or two, don't get me wrong. But he said, I've never heard him do any kind of drugs. He's just not a drug guy. He's a booze guy. A lot of people are booze or Drugs, and especially if you're like old military guys. Those guys are booze guys. A lot of times they either are booze guys or not booze guys. So they said Allen barely had any contents in his stomach, but they did find a substance consistent with the consistency of pudding in there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. So this is when the detective says, let's go ahead and start this homicide investigation now. We got a thing here. Yeah. So he immediately does this, and he looks into their background. And he said that creditors were continually calling the marital residence to discuss the delinquencies of various consumer accounts and past due vehicle payments. The marital residence was a subject of foreclosure proceedings and college tuition for the youngest daughter had become due and weren't paid. So they looked and found that Alan had recently started working with a glass insulation company and that Tammy's income as a CNA wasn't nearly enough to cover anything that they do, basically. But Tammy was blaming Alan for the money troubles, even though he made a lot more money.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She'd often complained to those around her, including friends, coworkers, and her daughter, that Allen was unreliable and failed to provide adequate contributions to the family's finances. She told everyone that.

[A]

Not a man at all.

[B]

So they go around asking Alan's friends and family about, you know, what does he do on the side? Does he take a, you know, maybe a muscle relaxer here and there to chill out? One here, a guy named Tim Harris who worked with Alan said you couldn't even get him to take an aspirin he didn't use. He didn't believe in legal or illegal drugs. He didn't like any drugs, which is like booze. Yeah. He said, I'll make it feel better. Don't worry. Grab a couple of sips. He said that he saw Alan at a local club the night before he died. And he said that Allen was planning to go to his wife's house that next night to try to reconcile their marriage. Alan thought this was a big step this next day because she invited him over for dinner or whatever. So this guy said he seemed to be happy to be going back home and to work at it. Tammy's son in law, Josh Turner, said he once heard Tammy say something that made him a bit uncomfortable. Well, they were watching an episode of csi, and in the episode, a character tried to poison someone, and Tammy said that the character was doing it wrong.

[A]

That ain't it at all.

[B]

Which you automatically start sliding over your chair a little bit as from someone doing it wrong.

[A]

What are you talking About I'm doing it all wrong.

[B]

Oh my God. He said he recalled the comment when he found out that Alan had died. And he said it gave him a trembling feeling.

[A]

The heejeebee gees.

[B]

The heejeebee gees, as Oregon guy would say there. So another one of Tammy's daughters, Caitlin, that is that guy's wife, that son in law's wife, said that she sent an email to Columbus Police Department concerning Allen's death without knowing her husband had already called the police. They independently, without even discussing it with each other, both felt that they needed to contact the police.

[A]

And I can see calling on your mother in law, but calling on your own mother, that tells you how bad this is.

[B]

Yeah. And the fact that they both felt that strongly without even like, should we call? No, no, they didn't even do that. They just both were like, he called

[A]

and was like, I'll tell her when I get home, I'll deal with the backlash. And she said, I'll tell him when I get home, I'll deal with the backlash.

[B]

Already emailed, no problem. So they said later on they'll be asked. So you both independently contacted the police with suspicions that your mother killed her husband and they both said yes, that's right, you got it. So the police have to talk to Tammy, obviously. So Tammy tells the cops that he'd been by her home the evening before. She had an air conditioner that needed repair. And he's a real heavy sleeper. And since she'd moved out, he'd taken to drinking even more heavily than before because she's not breaking his balls about it because he's on his own. And so he was drinking heavily and he just passed out on the back porch. She said.

[A]

She was like, that's where he sleeps.

[B]

He just, yeah, he fell asleep on a chair. And you know how it is when you got a drunk, you just let them sleep where they're sleeping. You're wake them up. It's rude. It's rude. She said also that he'd been feeling depressed, that she'd moved out of their house or they don't live together anymore and that they're no longer together. So that's how it goes. She also said, my husband drinks a lot and honestly, I'm kind of suspicious that he's been doing drugs recently as well. She said. He said, well, what kind of drugs? And she said, I think possibly cocaine.

[A]

In my estimation, he's been real high.

[B]

That's right. So I think he's been even higher than I thought. She said they said, well, what happened when he was over there? And she said, I had made chicken salad and cut up fresh fruits and vegetables and had made this cool pudding dessert. Cool, meaning to cool it down?

[A]

Yeah, meaning it had Cool Whip on top.

[B]

Cool Whip cream cheese whipped up. So that's what she said. Now they went, all right, so they get her initial statement and they're like, okay, well, we'll see if we can poke any holes in that. Then they find out from acquaintances that Tammy's been having an affair with an insurance agent. An insurance agent that drafted up Allen's policy.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

The cop's like, what, Pol? Whoa. I don't know that she's having an affair. I don't know about an insurance policy. I got a lot to find out. So they said Tammy had gotten involved with someone else. And according to witnesses here, Tammy had been saying she intended to file for divorce.

[A]

Oh boy.

[B]

But that she'd managed to persuade Alan to list her as a beneficiary on his life insurance policy by convincing him that they would eventually reconcile. This is what she told her friends. I scammed him and they put me on his life insurance. And the policy had been filled out by hand and signed in front of a restaurant in Columbus a month before Alan died. So one of the worst things to come from this was Tammy's own daughter with the email. That's bad because it's like you said, it's one thing to get something from the son in law. That's like hearing from the ex husband. My mother in law is a pain in the ass. Okay, well, whatever.

[A]

I'm sure she is.

[B]

Sure. You're not the first person to say that. Great. But a woman's daughter turning her in or pushing the police that way, that is serious. So they said that's a big deal. And Tammy had once described to her, she said in abstract terms what the perfect murder would look like.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Yeah, she's been thinking about this and that was quote, poison someone and request immediate cremation. That's how you do it right now. Which is exactly what she did. So they were like, oh, that's not good. And also she said that she was a big fan of TV crime shows and had claimed she knew how to kill someone without getting caught. Wow. Okay, now other witnesses come forward. As if that wasn't bad enough. This is really bad though. This is where her story gets real shitty. Now, this is before the 911 call that came in at 8:04am on the 24th. There's a store clerk named Kim Foster, who knows Tammy very well, spoke to Tammy when she opened her store sometime before 7am

[A]

she left the house, saw

[B]

him sitting there, went to the store,

[A]

came back, he's still sitting there.

[B]

Yeah. So maybe he's dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Tammy appeared distressed. She asked what was wrong and Tammy responded that she found Allen dead that morning. This is an hour and a half before the call to 911. So that's crazy. Then a neighbor, Jennifer Melton, gets a knock on her door around 7am it's super fucking loud, super early, so she's got to get her shit together. By the time she gets to the front door, whoever knocked is gone. So she looks out her back window and sees Tammy in her yard tying up her dogs. This is little after 7am tying up her dogs who are now sniffing this poor man's corpse.

[A]

Yeah, in an hour from now there's going to be men here.

[B]

This is wild. Then at about 7:30am, Gary Ruddle as we all her boyfriend there, Gary receives a phone call from Tammy. And Tammy had told him that Allen was outside and unconscious. That's what he said. So this is all these different stories. So someone said that she knew he was dead well before 7am right then she's stopping at neighbors houses, tying up dogs, calling her boyfriend, doing all this different shit. And then. Which is very odd. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you the best home security available out there. SimpliSafe.

[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Now back to the show.

[B]

So Tammy, by the way, she's going to get talked to a whole bunch of times by the cops and she is in a position where she can't just say fuck you, I need a lawyer. She has to act super cooperative.

[A]

Yeah. Because she didn't do it. She had nothing to do with all in accident.

[B]

Yeah. And she needs the insurance money to be released too. So over the course of this she has slightly different versions every time too, which that happens. There's minor inconsistencies of people up a detail or something. So they said to her. It's also the fact that you did not walk in the door at 8:04 and call 91 1. You were doing something in that house for 14 minutes before you called 911. That's when she came home. And we have an eyewitness that puts you there an hour before you called 911, tying up the dogs in the backyard. So they're like, what up with that?

[A]

Yeah, what the hell, lady now, her

[B]

excuse for this is, well, yeah, I might have made a few other calls before I called 911. And they go, why? And she goes, well, my memory's not so good, so I don't really remember that morning so well. But she said, it's got to be shock. It's got to be the shock of finding my husband's body. I went into such shock from it. I couldn't call 911 for an hour, but I could go to the store and call my boyfriend. That I could figure out, but easy. You know, the shock makes you do weird things you don't want to call.

[A]

Yeah. When you're in shock, I'll just sit there on the phone going, yes, 911. Yes, 911. Yes, 911.

[B]

911.

[A]

Just back and forth.

[B]

Yeah, 911.

[A]

I had to wait for an hour.

[B]

So, yeah, you know, I didn't want to be frustrated.

[A]

Gotta let that wear off.

[B]

She also tells this cop that she one time found a bottle of 90 pills hidden with her husband's belongings and confronted him about it. And she said her husband told him that his cousin gave him the pills. So that is, I assume, to say that it's the Flexeril, probably because that's who they're saying gave him the pills. Also, during the same interview, she said she called 911 immediate immediately after arriving home in the morning, and that's where they were like, well, not really.

[A]

You didn't though.

[B]

Yeah. And she said, well, it was shortly after that. And then they challenge her story and show phone records that she called a friend at 7:50 from her home phone and didn't call 911 until 14 minutes later and said, what were you doing during that 14 minutes? And said, look at all these other phone calls you made. You were home for 14 minutes from the first time you called Rhonda to when you called 911. And you also called your boyfriend Gary in that 14 minutes. And she just said, I don't know. I just don't know.

[A]

What about an hour and a half ago you already knew that he was dead.

[B]

Yeah. No. Nope. And then she said, well, I probably panicked and just tried to calm myself down. And that's. I called people that would help calm me down. Okay, call them as 911 is there. You can call them all you want as the medics work on him. That's fine. So they push her a little more, and she said, well, okay. And she started crying and she said, you're going to think I'M a horrible person. You're going to think I'm a horrible person. And they go, try us. Yeah, give us a run, see if you can make it. So we think you're worse than we think you are now. Yeah, let's see if we can get there. And she said, okay. He showed up intoxicated. He was shit faced, man. Just showed up wrecked. He said that he just wasn't willing to live if he couldn't move back home and have free reign and do the things he wanted to do. Hmm, I need free reign. He said that Allen then went to his truck and brought in a container of liquid with an eyedropper and was drinking whiskey. So he's got liquid with an eyedropper now. She's a nurse, she would know what it was. And said that she. He put, quote, a couple droppers full of the liquid in his mouth.

[A]

Oh, he's just dropping droppers like a bird feeder.

[B]

Boop, boop. Yeah.

[A]

While he's hammering whiskey.

[B]

Yep. Like it's some sort of like a vitamin C supplement or something he's taking.

[A]

It's a wild syrup that he's making.

[B]

So she suggested that they said, well, how would he get some weird liquid? I don't understand how he would do this. And they said, well, a guy I used to work with named Jamie at a nursing home, he might have been the source of these drugs. That's the guy. She said after she found Alan dead, she said she threw everything away. This is what I didn't want to tell you, but I didn't want to make him look bad, so I just threw everything away.

[A]

Oh, she threw away the eyedropper, got

[B]

rid of all of his drugs and got rid of everything. And she said the pill bottle and bottle of liquid were both empty, by the way. So she was just getting rid of the bottles. She told the cop that she just felt awful about it and she couldn't help it. She also said she cleaned up the foam that had come out of his mouth too. She gave him a little. Oh, God. She gave him a little deal. Cleaned him up, washed down the scene, you know, just didn't want to make him look bad. Wow, that's not a good story. No, it's a terrible story.

[A]

I cleaned up. The body is not good.

[B]

Yeah. And, well, it's especially bad because during a conversation with Alan's ex wife, Tammy initially said Alan hadn't been drinking at all, but later mentioned during the course of the evening that he consumed a beer and a shot. And then when he Spoke. When she spoke to one of the children, Tammy said Alan had been pounding tequila the entire night. So went from not drinking at all, had one shot and one beer, a shitload of tequila. A bunch of whiskey is another story. Or two Long Island Iced Teas is another story.

[A]

It's one of those.

[B]

What did he drink? Yeah, 0.436. All of that has to be. So that's when, during this investigation, shit takes a bit of a different turn. Because they're like, okay, we have a lot of kind of circumstantial shit. And she looks bad and all this, and her story is fucking terrible, but we don't really have anything to really go on. Then an old boyfriend comes back to haunt her.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yes, this is Steven Brown, Tammy's former boyfriend. And a statement from him, they discover a statement that he gave to a Farm Bureau Insurance investigator in connection with a completely separate matter that had nothing to do with Allen.

[A]

The FBI. The Farm Bureau Insurance.

[B]

Yes, Farm Bureau Insurance Investig. I'm with the FBI, ma'. Am. I'm investigating something. No, the Farm Bureau Insurance FBI.

[A]

Eye.

[B]

So Tammy had accused this Steven Brown of stealing her property, which he denied. And I think they found later that he didn't at all. But over the course of this interview. So Stephen Brown dropped a detail on them, saying. Which didn't matter at the time because it wasn't germane to the stealing at the time. So no one ever followed up on it. It just sat there in a report for a later homicide investigator to find. He said that. Thanksgiving, 2004. This is right before she met and married Alan.

[A]

Yeah, three years ago.

[B]

Yeah. Tammy arrived at his house with food. She had a pudding that she insisted he eat. Yeah, it's my famous dirt pudding. She said, my daughter made it especially for you. Don't be disrespectful of my daughter, who went out of her way to make you a nice pudding. He said he took a few bites, but he said it tasted, quote, like aspirin dissolving. And then he felt, quote, very out of it for several hours. This is after just a couple of bites. Okay. Then Tammy, after she had given him the pudding, pulled out a life insurance policy application. Yeah. She said she needed his information, his Social Security, his signature, with her as his beneficiary. Sign it now before you die from what I gave you.

[A]

Yeah, for my dump pipe. Kills you.

[B]

He said no, refused, wouldn't sign it. So she got mad and left. And he said that she left. When she left, she took the bowl and Plate with her that he used.

[A]

She took the whole thing.

[B]

She took his bowl and plate with her so it couldn't be found. Wow, that's wild. Okay, so both of these meals included the same one thing? Yeah, that dirt pudding, her specialty.

[A]

That's pie.

[B]

Yeah, that pudding is her specialty. Then they find out about missing drugs from her job. Oh, morphine missing from her job. What did he die of? Morphine overdose? No, they're just finding out about that, man. They didn't press charges or anything because they had no proof that Tammy stole it, so she just left there and

[A]

they just looked like assholes for leaving it out.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So they just said, we'll let that go, and now it comes back. And they said, as a certified nurse's aide, Tammy was not permitted authorized access to patient drugs, so it had to have been a theft. They said that Rose will testify later in a hearing that Tammy was working with him. Charlie Rose, on March 2, 2007, in a particular ward that housed a hospice patient who'd been prescribed Roxanol. Help this person die, basically. Another nurse's aide, Rita Bell, had been on duty with Charles and Tammy. Charles went for lunch with Rita and left Tammy alone on the floor to serve lunches to the bedridden patients. Gee, thanks, guys.

[A]

Yeah, good looking out.

[B]

Gee, maybe bring me back something. At least you guys are having a. Wow, that sucks. Now, Bell had seen a bottle of Venoxanol on the patient's table, but did not pick it up because she wasn't in charge of the medicine cart that day. And that would have been. She's not supposed to touch that. So when Charles asked Tammy if she knew what happened to it, Tammy flatly denied taking it and blamed the missing drugs on the relative that we talked about. According to Charlie Rose, he kind of knew better because the daughter was a teacher that never visited during the daytime but had no proof, so he had to let it drop. Then they find out about all of the things, about the financial strains all the relatives are coming in, talking about. He'd recently signed a mortgage insurance on the property and all that kind of thing. We find out, then the cops are like, so he signed mortgage insurance. Let's find that policy. Then they find out what he really signed, which is $100,000 life insurance policy naming Tammy as the sole beneficiary as well. And obviously, Gary Ruddle was writing the policy. And she told her friend Rhonda Brown that if Alan talks to you, make sure that he doesn't find out. He Signed a life insurance policy. Make sure he thinks it's mortgage insurance.

[A]

Make sure of that.

[B]

Yep. She showed Rhonda after that. She said, make sure he thinks it's life insurance or make sure he thinks it's mortg. Mortgage insurance. Then she whipped out some small, round, yellow pills, which, by the way, that's how Flexeril come. Small yellow pills. And asked her, quote, if he took the whole bottle, would he die? Okay. Now, Rhonda said she didn't believe anyone was actually gonna do that. She thought Tammy was just being funny. You know what I mean? Tammy's being Tammy. She has a personality.

[A]

Better asking you than Google.

[B]

Exactly. What do you think here? She said she should have called someone right then. Rhonda said, but she didn't because she didn't think anything of it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then they talked to Dennis Thomas, a motorist's life insurance investigator, and he received Tammy's claim on the $100,000 policy and signed investigator Dennis Thomas to look into the circumstances of the death. He interviewed Tammy multiple times as well. So she's being interviewed by two sets of investigators here, all over the place. Yeah, but he just takes his findings and shares them with the police. So everything he gets, they get too. Yeah. So she is under a lot of pressure every time she was interviewed. She had to try to maintain a story and to keep your story straight. What did I tell this one as opposed to that one and all that. But it doesn't work very well. Tammy starts to kind of break down a little bit.

[A]

Well, they tend to ask you specifics, and if that specific changes because you forgot, that's on you.

[B]

Yeah, they tend to ask you specifics, and if you don't answer, they tend to go back to that one question.

[A]

Wait, what'd you say?

[B]

Yeah, can't bullshit your way out of it. So then Tammy said, or they talked to Gary Ruddle, and he said, I only sold her the insurance policy. I had no idea beyond that she had any intentions to do anything with it like that. He said, also, I haven't been in contact with her since that time period. He said, oop. Never mind when she started being investigated. I'm sure the investigators probably told him, dude, stay away from this lady. She's dangerous. Then Tammy's dad, Lowell Smith, said he recalled Tammy telling him Allen had foam coming from his mouth when she found him dead and that she had wiped it away. Okay, so here's their theory. Sometime between 1am and 6am while he was sleeping, he's asleep in his chair. Unconscious Having too much morphine, Flexoril and alcohol. They said his breathing slows. And according to the theory, while he was incapacitated, they believe Tammy may have administered additional morphine directly. She might have dropped more in. That would explain why his blood concentration was so insanely high. They don't think he would have been able to get all that in him basically before being out. So they said it has to be. They think that Tammy must have given him more later. Like she probably came outside, looked at him and said, fuck, he's still breathing.

[A]

The chest is moving.

[B]

Yeah, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. Okay. See how that does type of thing. So the insurance situation had really been the initial red flags here. Allen's family suspicions, even Tammy's family suspicions, her rushing to get cremated, wanting to skip the autopsy, everything. One of the cops said, I was suspicious of it at the start. He was in too good of health and all of that shit. And in her own story, it kept shifting just to go over her lies. When she called 911, she said, I found him and I immediately called. We find out she called several other people first. First, not only that, she was in a store in town before 7am already telling people Allen was dead. Boyfriend Gary gets a call at 7:30am saying Allen was unconscious. The 911 call came in at 8:04, and when confronted with this, she said she was in shock. To the 911 operator, Tammy said that he's a heavy drinker, implying alcohol was to blame. To Allen's former girlfriend, he said he hadn't been drinking at all. Then said he had one beer in one shot. Then to her son, saying he'd been drinking tequila all night. They'd been drinking tequila together all night. Then later on, at least two Long island iced teas. And then at one point, whiskey and morphine. All of those. Initially, she had no idea where the drugs came from. Then she said Allen must have had a secret drug life she didn't know about. Had to. Then at another time, she described seeing Alan produce an eyedropper bottle with a lavender liquid consistent with Roxanal. Then Allen had gotten Flexeril from his cousin Zyla. Then she said she cleaned up the pill bottles to protect his reputation, you know, and then she comes up with an even crazier one. Here we go. He committed suicide. Yeah, that's.

[A]

Yeah, I could see it.

[B]

It's suicide. It's suicide. You know, she had. I don't know.

[A]

It's not her job to come up with the reason or the how he Died. It's just give. That's their job. Let them do it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But it's either. It's clearly either murder or suicide because,

[B]

well, there's no other answer. Yeah, he had to have done. The dogs didn't do it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So her thing is he must have committed suicide then. To the. On the insurance policy, to the investigators, Allen had initiated the policy himself. To her friend Rhonda said, don't tell him it's life insurance. And to Allen, she told him it's mortgage insurance. So she lied to everybody there. It's a mess. She believes, though, her final story, this is my final answer and I'm sticking to it, is that he accidentally drank himself to death. That's what she said was her final story. Then she changed that. And according to her, he drank the medication and swallowed the pills because he wasn't willing to live if he couldn't move back home and have free reign to do the things he wanted to do. Like we said before, and she said he hides stuff and he had to have hidden shit from her. And he has a secret double life with all sorts of stuff and all sorts of drugs. And they said that the cousin admitted that she had left medications, including Flexeril, out in plain view at her house and that she recently had a block party attended by Alan and Tammy. However, those who knew Alan, including Zyla, the cousins, insisted Alan was opposed to ingesting drugs.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And additionally, Tammy said on the night before Allen's death, she'd seen him with an eyedropper filled with the lavender color liquid and all that. Here, the problem is here they said that this Roxanol is a liquid form of morphine prescribed to hospice patients. It's not a street drug.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This isn't something readily available.

[A]

Just get that and then be addicted to that.

[B]

And police officers later on will testify that neither Roxanol nor Flexeril is a drug typically abused and available for street purchase in 2007. Anyway, they said evidence showed that Tammy had been in the proximity of both drugs shortly before Allen's death. Now, Flexeril, I've heard people taking, that's muscle relaxers, this Roxanal shit, that's crazy.

[A]

I've never heard of it before. I imagine it's amazing and right on par with Dilaudid.

[B]

Something like that. Yeah. So she said, I want you to know I am not this horrible person. I did not murder my husband. She tells the police, fair enough, but fair enough. But on August 6, 2010, she's arrested for murdering her husband. Ah, shit. So that's not good. Murder. Six counts of insurance fraud.

[A]

Six.

[B]

Three counts of obstruction of justice. And that is for her saying she threw out the pills and wiped the foam from his mouth. That's obstruction of justice.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

Yes. Telling her dad she wiped the foam from the mouth. So in her initial appearance in court. This is the balls this lady has. Okay. She asked if she could be set. If she could be released from her jail so she could return to the job she loves at a Louisville children's hospital.

[A]

Yes, you may.

[B]

Huh? Yes. Murderer. Suspect. Let's go hang out around children more. That's what we want for our murder suspects.

[A]

You want to go volunteer? We get it.

[B]

No, no, her job, she loves it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's very important to her.

[A]

Very important to the community.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That you go dick around around kids. The judge said, no, first of all, no. And then said that but you're going to need an attorney to file a motion for a special hearing before I could even consider bond. And she said she couldn't afford an attorney and could she have a public defender. They said, have you looked for an attorney? And she said her boyfriend has made calls on her behalf, which Gary said he hasn't talked to her since the incident. So who is this boyfriend that she found now? We don't know.

[A]

I'm glad to know.

[B]

She said that they're asking for 30 to 50,000 to retain their services.

[A]

That's a high powered one.

[B]

That's a decent lawyer. And she said, I don't have that kind of money. There was a lawsuit with the insurance company that had gone on before this where she and the company reached a $40,000 settlement. So they ended up giving her $40,000

[A]

instead of the 300,000.

[B]

They gave her 40,000, but they said that 40,000 is going to go against your lawyer fee, so.

[A]

Oh, so just to a lawyer.

[B]

Yeah, There's a cap on the public defender of 25 grand. So at least 25 grand of that is coming to your lawyer, basically. Or at most 25 grand of it. So April 11, 2000 or April 2011 is the trial. Now one of the main things they're fighting about in pretrial. This is one of those cases where there's a lot up in the air because they don't have proof she had morphine. So this is a lot of circumstantial evidence. And the way the trial goes down is everything. If you've seen anything on the Corey Rich and stuff, that was their whole approach is we don't have any proof of this, of her doing this. But there was two adults in the house. He ended up with too much of this in his system. And we don't think he did it to himself. So by process of elimination, had to have been you.

[A]

And we have text messages from one person in the house trying to procure

[B]

the shit that he died from asking for the Michael Jackson stuff. So anyway, this shit, it's a very similar thing, though very circumstantial. And it's just based on process of elimination. Couldn't have been anybody else. Had to have been her. The main thing they're going to fight about is Steven Brown.

[A]

Okay, yeah.

[B]

The ex boyfriend who said she tried to poison him on Thanksgiving or near Thanksgiving with the aspirin taste and hours of feeling out of it and being almost being forced to sign insurance papers and how she left with the bowl

[A]

and plate in the weakest and worst pie on the planet.

[B]

Yeah. Terrible, awful pie.

[A]

It's not cooking. Stop it.

[B]

So one of the big deals here is whether Steven's testimony about this could be admitted into trial. Because this is a big. I mean, this is a knockout blow. It involved Indiana evidence rule 404B, which you've heard a lot of if you ever watch a trial which generally prohibits using evidence of prior bad acts to show a defendant has a propensity for crime. Okay, it's the prior bad acts thing. Now, before trial, Tammy's attorneys successfully argue that Steven Brown's testimony should be included. Unless the defense opens the door, and that's always the exception to this. The prosecution can't bring shit up. But if you open the door on something to try to say she's a good person, you try to open some character door, you're getting blasted with this. And that's how it works here. And the prosecution agreed, and that was fine. So he's not allowed to testify. All right, prosecution's opening. They have a timeline, and they'll do it for about an hour. The whole timeline and detail, Allen and Tammy's relationship, financial records, employment history. He portrayed Tammy as financially irresponsible and dishonest. They alleged that Tammy had, quote, hid $25,000 from her creditors in Alan Duvall's personal checking account so that she could file for bankruptcy and have a $55,000 debt erased. Okay, so that's all shady shit. That's one of the counts that she's up for. They also pointed out that 17 months after the bankruptcy erased her debt, she had accumulated $170,000 in new debt by purchasing houses, vehicles, clothes, shit like that.

[A]

$170,000.

[B]

Yeah. The Duvalls are frequently late on their loan payments. Their house is being foreclosed on, and the house was being foreclosed on before Tammy paid up five months of delinquent mortgage payments after she got the insurance settlement. They said by the time Tammy purchased insurance on Alan Duvall's life, she was facing a major financial crisis. And then they played clips of interviews of police and insurance investigators conducted with Tammy and showed her in her own glory. Here. They played audio of clips, interviews by that he said proving the insurance fraud and obstruction of justice charges were the easy part because Tammy's caught on tape lying to an insurance investigator and confessing to cleaning Allen Duvall's body and the area around him when she found a him debt. They said Tammy concealed and misrepresented her insurance claim history and her level of participation in insuring Allen's life. They said, quote, she tangled herself up in her web of deceit. I love when prosecutors try to turn phrases and it just kind of falls flat like that.

[A]

She's a real black widow, James.

[B]

She tangled herself up in a web of deceit. Oh, boy, you know how that web goes. Gets tangled. Telling, they said, telling lies that she ever evolved. That evolved. As the investigators got more evidence, her lies would just kind of go around what that evidence was. They said Tammy concealed and misrepresented all this shit and tangled herself and she's doing everything. They also said that Tammy did not show. This is in court this day. They show a picture of Allen slumped over dead in the chair and his cousin started crying. But Tammy showed no reaction in court. Then later in the argument, she began crying when the prosecutor played an audio clip of her explaining that she saw Allen take the drugs that killed him. That's the part I gotta cry at. That's my emotional part. Her attorney gave her tissues. Oh, you poor thing. The defense opening was this. It's a suicide, period. It's gotta be suicide. It's a suicide, period. They argued that Allen had taken the drugs himself. He was devastated about the state of his marriage. And he told Tammy that he didn't just couldn't live if he couldn't move back home. And that the morphine and flexor all were his and that Tammy was an innocent woman, just innocent.

[A]

And he's gonna feel so bad if his suicide locks her up forever.

[B]

This is. He would feel, do you want to hurt this man even more?

[A]

The man's dead, for Christ's sake.

[B]

Let him rest. God, he's been through enough. The man hasn't been able to digest a decent meal in six weeks.

[A]

Six weeks.

[B]

So they said an eyedropper full of morphine is the thing he had when he died. And the delay was just Tammy finding him dead and, quote, freaking out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's all it is. Didn't matter. They said the state has no proof that Tammy stole a bottle of morphine from Miller's Merry Manor, which is such a weird place for something that has hospice care, by the way.

[A]

A merry manor. I know.

[B]

Miller's Merry Manor sounds like something at Six Flags.

[A]

It sounds like the whole ass Six Flags.

[B]

Yeah. This is Miller's Merry Manor. It does not sound like back there is the hospice care Rio. Yeah. Right past the snack shack is the hospice care Six Flags over.

[A]

Miller's Merry, man.

[B]

Yeah. That's so weird. Now, her lawyer acknowledged that, yeah, Tammy might be financially stupid. Sure. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, she is.

[B]

That's a thing. And, yeah, you know, Allen's motives in marrying Tammy was also questionable. He said that they then are now accusing him of having violent behavior toward her. He also questioned police interview techniques in which a detective misled and exaggerated the case against Tammy to get favorable testimony from other witnesses. That does suck, but it's also legal. That's the problem. They said the cases against Tammy come down to one word. Sure. That's what the defense attorney said. Sure. Like in, yeah. When asked about during her interview whether she would take a polygraph, Tammy said sure. Without hesitation. They said she had nothing to hide. But the authorities never followed through on their offer of the exam. I think because it was academic at that point. They had her lying six different ways, so what does it matter?

[A]

And maybe they asked and didn't have the machine. It's 50,000 people here. Maybe they're waiting for it to come up.

[B]

They could have gone to Louisville or Indianapolis or something. If you can go to Indianapolis for a drink, you can. You can certainly go for a polygraph. I would hope. Her lawyer said that Tammy also did not hesitate when asked questions. That when asked questions, he had evidence to prove she was lying. As an example, he said Tammy told a police detective that the bank had never foreclosed on her home, but he had court documents to show that in his hand. They said that Tammy is a good liar until all her stories are compared. This is the prosecution and rebuttal here. And so that's that. Now, in opening statements, still here, it's all suicide. And, you know, that's it. Now the Problem is, when they do this, they describe. The defense attorney argues that Allen had committed suicide, describing a specific scenario in which Allen brought his own drugs to the house and told Tammy he didn't want to live and self administered the lethal dose. Now, somehow the prosecution immediately argued that this opened the door to the prior poisoning evidence. Oh, and to show that Tammy's intent was murderous, not that Allen died on his own. So they said, you should bring in that other. That Steven Brown testimony about the Thanksgiving shit. And the trial court said, okay, you're right. And now this guy's gonna testify too.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Which is terrible for her. Terrible. To have somebody explain the exact scenario again is terrible for her.

[A]

Not good.

[B]

The only thing their lawyer can say in cross examination is, so you didn't die that night, right? No, that's your witness. That's all I had to see. He's alive still. So it's not the same.

[A]

There's the old bumper sticker that goes, but did you die?

[B]

Yeah, that's what they need. That's exactly what they die. Did you die? So the medical examiner, they question whether something other than the pudding could have killed her, could have killed him, could it have been in anything else?

[A]

Even if it doesn't have drugs in it, it's certainly gonna make me throw up.

[B]

Certainly sounds gross. So he told the medical examiner, told the attorney, that the stomach contents were not tested to determine what they were or weren't, or determine what they were or whether they contained any kind of illicit drug found in his system. Because there was no mystery to that. Didn't matter. So they also testified that nothing indicated whether the morphine or muscle relaxants were in the food or how they were administered to Allen or whether someone else had administered to them.

[A]

Can you test the stomach contents for the drugs?

[B]

No. No. And this is the same problem. You could test to see if there were still drugs in his stomach, if they take pills or something. Because that's in the Corey Richens case. We're gonna find that. And that's what we find out kind of from that in that Corey Richens case is that's what the defense keeps bringing up is, well, do you have any. Do you know how he took the drug? And they were like, no, we don't know. It just had to have been in something he ate if he didn't take it voluntarily. And, you know, and then they put the circumstantial stuff together and you end up with that.

[A]

It would be nice to find out if he took it on purpose.

[B]

But no way to know.

[A]

Doesn't seem like he did.

[B]

No. So the tests on Alan's blood and urine samples also don't indicate whether the morphine was Roxanol, which is the brand that disappeared from the nursing home. So they don't know that. Or if it was just morphine, any kind of whatever, generic, whatever, even though it was five months before he died. So Tammy, remember Tammy suggesting that Allen took the morphine that killed him and that possibly Jamie Payne, a nurse they knew, gave it to him. So she had a source. Well, they definitely bring in Jamie Payne to testify. Oh, yeah. And he said, well, I've only met Alan once for a brief moment when he was with Tammy at the nursing home where I worked with Tammy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he died. Definitely wasn't his drug connect. And he said that also, I'm a drug addict personally. He said, but I never gave Tammy any other drugs other than a couple of diet pills one time. So that's it. I didn't give her any morphine. I don't know shit about shit. Then Tammy's son testifies, uh, oh, this is a Jansen Engelman. He testifies that his mother seemed calm when she called to tell him about Allen's death, but that he could tell from her voice that she was upset.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He said she said she thought he died of a heart attack. He said his mother never told him about buying a life insurance policy for Allen, but he'd heard from his younger sister that she had talked about it with her. He said it seemed odd. I knew they were separated at the time, so it seemed odd that that would happen. Then they bring in Rhonda Brown. Rhonda said she had brought over some pills in an unmarked bottle. And she said, do you think if a person took enough of these pills, it would kill them? And I'm like, why? Are you planning on killing somebody? And she said, you just don't believe anybody's going to actually do that. Yeah, no. They bring in Charles Rose here. He's the nurse who left the bottle out. And he said that he knew that her explanation was false, but he had no evidence to try to bust her on it, basically. And like you said, probably was embarrassed about it to begin with. I don't know if he's testified to that, but that's gotta be a fact. Zyla Thompson saying that Alan never, to her knowledge, had taken any prescription drugs and that the bottle was basically half empty of this giant Flexoril bottle after Tammy was there. Then there's Jennifer Melton, the Neighbor who said she saw Tammy in the backyard at 7am tying up her dogs. It's not good at all. Not good at all. They said Tammy sat quietly writing on a notepad. They said. Jennifer Melton, who works with Tammy at a nursing home and was her friend, testified that Tammy was calm and giggling while talking on the phone the same day that Alan's body was discovered. That's bad. Giggly, Giggly. Just tee hee hee, tee hee. This Melton said that when she stopped by Tammy Duvall's house that day, she already had insurance papers out on her table and said she was going to have her husband cremated because it was the least expensive option. That's fucked. Wow. She said her attitude that morning of was not like someone who just lost her husband. If I lost my husband, I'd be crazy. She wasn't even crying.

[A]

No, she's bereaved. She's not a SAP.

[B]

No, I'm not. What do I look like, a schmuck over here? So they talked to the convenience store clerk who talked to her that morning and told her that her husband was dead, saying that she knew already. They talked to Gary, Tammy's boyfriend and insurance agent. That's important. Testified that Tammy immediately tried to collect the policy despite his advice to wait. He said, don't try to collect it right now. It's gonna look terrible. You just got it a month ago.

[A]

You're not gonna get the money and you're gonna look suspicious. Don't do it.

[B]

Yeah. And so he also testified about the phone call at 7:30am he's not charged with any crime, although the defense tried to to paint him as maybe he had something to do with this. But the investigators likely determined that he likely didn't know shit about what was going on whatsoever. Alan's family, multiple cousins, family members, all testifies to Alan's character, his opposition to drugs, his general happiness of spirit and

[A]

being just a pleasant demeanor.

[B]

Yeah. His hope for a reconciliation with Tammy, everything. They also testified that Alan had, in one or more of his, one of his more prescient moments, they said, told people, if I die, make sure it's investigated. He told them, like individually, if I die, make sure it's investigated. That's a witness quote right there. The defense case. Okay. All you can do is it's, you know, can't say it's self defense.

[A]

No, you gotta say it was a suicide. We didn't have anything to do with this.

[B]

So they call Dr. John Pless, a forensic pathologist hired by the state to review Autopsy results. He will say that he believed that Alan died of a morphine overdose and that there was no way to tell who administered it. He said the drugs found in his system could have been used throughout the day that he died, and that he thinks that the morphine and muscle relaxants were administered by first. Then Alan ingested the alcohol. So he took in 100 times a therapeutic dose of morphine and then said, I need a drink.

[A]

I am so thirsty.

[B]

Imagine. Okay, remember on the wire? Let's go back to that. Do you remember after Bubbles shoots up, what does he do? What does he do? He sits there. And does what? Drools and fucking nods. And that's like stepped on street shit. This is pure pharmaceutical, hospice quality.

[A]

Fucking morphine hospice quality.

[B]

This guy's gonna die anyway. Just make it not hurt.

[A]

That's what you're getting fucking pure.

[B]

Pure is the driven snow. So that's what we're talking about here. I mean, this is a totally different thing.

[A]

It's quality.

[B]

That's what it's.

[A]

That's what I want my plug to say when I call him for anything.

[B]

Yeah, I want my drug dealer to go, this is hospice quality shit right here.

[A]

You want hospice quality? That's what I got. It'll distract the dying.

[B]

So how the fuck would they ingest all of that? Like. Yeah, 50 times a bubble's dose. And then he'd be like, I need a drink.

[A]

It's gotta be. It's gotta be. Try this amazing recipe of three ingredients. Right.

[B]

You know, this is wild.

[A]

There's actually six.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, there is six. So they said that the manner of his death, in his opinion, was homicide due to the level of morphine found. He said no one can give themselves that much.

[A]

No way.

[B]

He said he'd never seen a level of morphine that high in a dead body ever.

[A]

Yeah, 600 times the pharmaceutical dose.

[B]

So in closing, the defense tells the jurors that he doesn't think the state proved that Tammy killed her husband.

[A]

He doesn't think so.

[B]

Just doesn't think they proved it. He said this whole case is speculation.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Speculation. He said that the state provided a lot of evidence. True, true. But they left enough room for plenty of reasonable doubt.

[A]

It's enough for error. And that error is a reasonable doubt, and you must acquit her.

[B]

And then he does. This is like when someone steals a song, but changes it just enough. This is one of those things. He's heard every prosecutor, every defense attorney use this particular analogy. And he's gonna take it Steal it, but twist it just a little bit so he doesn't sound like such a hack.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Nice baby. He compared. Yep, he could hear it goes. He compared the state's case to putting together a child's toy. Not a puzzle. Every other puzzle. It's like a puzzle. Sure, there might be a few pieces missing, but you see the picture. That's what every attorney says. And then the defense attorney will say,

[A]

how's this like a child's toy? I'm riveted.

[B]

He said, this is like putting together a child's toy. It has hundreds of pieces and instructional steps, but it just doesn't come together right.

[A]

Don't let your kids play with the shit you build them, sir. What are you talking about?

[B]

He's like, I don't want to use that tired puzzle, one that everybody uses, that's just tired. What if I, I want to talk

[A]

about the time that I built a tricycle out of my kid's four wheeled car.

[B]

That poor kid. We had another one after the funeral, you know, we. We rebuilt our lives, you know, we didn't want to let it go.

[A]

Yeah, we named him Charlie too.

[B]

Yeah, that's how we did it. But what kids toys besides Legos have hundreds of pieces, by the way.

[A]

Not hundreds. No, it's usually very simple.

[B]

I'll tell you what, if I bought my kids a toy like Christmas time, and it had hundreds of pieces, I would hurl it through the store's front fucking window.

[A]

I'd send it right the fuck back to Amazon, which is where I found

[B]

it before Christmas morning it started. Yeah, fuck that. He said that if Tammy was smart enough to orchestrate the murder by stealing a bottle of morphine five months in advance, buying an insurance policy, and convincing her husband to not only sign it, but then eat poisoned food, don't you think she would have had a better escape plan? That's the other thing I love. No, first few things, this murderer would be less stupid is a terrible defense.

[A]

Other point is he just painted how fucking easy it was and how diabolical she is. She's had five months planning this and she didn't give herself an out. Cause she thought this was good. That's what it is.

[B]

And they said, don't you think that if she was that smart to plan it that long, that she'd have a better escape plan? Her escape plan was cremation that day. Yeah, that was the escape plan.

[A]

She thought she got away with it.

[B]

That's it. As soon as cremation wasn't happening, that Day. That's her escape plan. The whole thing's fucked. She had one escape plan, she had plan A.

[A]

Plan B. Fuck plan B.

[B]

And they said, obviously there's no proof she stole it. So what are you gonna do? Fuck yourselves. That's what they said.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

So during sentencing or during a verdict, here comes in not sentencing. The jury is seven women and five men. Okay? Six hours of deliberation, they're talking about it.

[A]

Seven women may have reason why they would want to kill somebody.

[B]

Yeah, I could see it, you know, one of those where they go, I'm not saying I'm. I'm not saying she didn't, but maybe not. After six hours, they find him guilty of murder and six counts of insurance fraud and three counts of obstruction of justice.

[A]

Everything.

[B]

Everything they put out there, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. During sentencing, the prosecutor said, quote, she is a stone cold killer, plain and simple. She killed her husband, a person who I feel truly loved her. And all she could see was $100,000 stamped on his forehead. That's it. Big stamp. The defense attorney argued that Tammy, she has almost no criminal history. So, I mean, she had a theft conviction more than 20 years ago. Who cares? And she has maintained employment for a long time. Besides that time, she had to leave that job because there was fucking morphine missing. But besides that, she's very well employed and she's been a productive member of society for most of her adult life. Wow. Okay, so Tammy also tells the judge that she is dissatisfied with her legal representation because her public defender did not call some of the witnesses or present some of the evidence she suggested.

[A]

So the fuck what?

[B]

You're not even an rn. You're definitely not a lawyer.

[A]

You're not even an ln.

[B]

You didn't even finish nursing school. Yeah, you didn't even finish nursing school, never mind law school. What the fuck are you talking about? That you see, you can't. And whenever you see crazy shit, by the way, going on with a lawyer, and you go, why are they doing, like, the Corey Richards case? The whole time I was saying, this has to be Corey. This has to be Corey. No lawyer would come up with this as a strategy. This has to be what Cory wants, otherwise it makes no sense.

[A]

What you're saying is you didn't have my green chili chicken enchiladas.

[B]

I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. That's what you're saying. That's what you're saying. So that's what I mean, you got that. And the other one too. Fucking. It just makes sense on that. And all of that goes together. So during this hearing, she's not satisfied. Oh, Sarah Boone. That's what I was thinking. Sarah Boone went through. She was on like her eighth lawyer by the time of the trial because none of the lawyers would do what she told them to do.

[A]

None of them are doing a strategy because it's gonna fucking get slammed back in our face.

[B]

That's right. So then she found some guy to fucking do it. Some Hammond Egger, who in my opinion, probably just needed the publicity and doesn't have that thriving of a law practice. Like I said, allegedly, in my opinion.

[A]

Bet she's having a good day.

[B]

Having a good day, but finally got somebody to fucking do what she wanted him to do. So they said that she believed that this is. She's not guilty. That's it. And Tammy also said that she told the judge that she believed that the police had plotted against her, basically telling people things that weren't true to get them to say bad things about her. And the prosecution countered with they believe she was plotting to defraud the court by having the county pay for a transcript of the trial for her appeal. And that's why she's doing this. That's the only reason why she's saying this, so she can get the court to pick. Transcripts are really expensive. Oh, I'm sure they cost thousands of dollars. So she's trying to get the court to pay for it. If you don't have money, you don't have right to just have them print it for you.

[A]

Transcribed. Yeah, that's.

[B]

You have a right to an attorney, but you don't have a right to a transcript, unfortunately. That's tough.

[A]

I don't see that one anymore.

[B]

No, there's certain circumstances where they have to give you it, but not if you're doing it all. The judge found no circumstances that mitigated her sentence, but cited certain aggravating factors, including her character and the nature of the circumstances of the crime. That's great. An aggravating circumstance is your character. You're such a shitty person, it's literally an aggravator at your murder trial that you're a dick. And he said the murder seemed planned well in advance. You, ma', am, may fuck off. 60 and 1/2 years in jail.

[A]

And a half.

[B]

And a half and six months. 55 for murder, four for insurance fraud, and a year and a half for obstruction. Year and a half just for wiping that foam. That's what you get.

[A]

Fucking 18 months for that.

[B]

Earliest possible release date, December 8th, 2040.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

She'd be 81 at the time.

[A]

Uh.

[B]

Oh, that's not good. The reaction. Members of Allen's family said they were pissed off by the sentence.

[A]

It doesn't seem like that much.

[B]

They said she should have gotten the max on everything. She's a murderer. She plotted everything. Duvall's cousin said she's a con artist. Killing Alan was her ultimate con. It's just not right taking someone's family away like that. The husband saying she's beguiling and shrewd really starts to beguile. If she was that beguiling and shrewd, she would have got away with this, I think. But yeah, this is. She could have. I guess the max was 80 years. That would have been the max she could have gotten, which really doesn't make that much of a difference. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The only difference it could have made is maybe then she would have been eligible for parole when she was 90, which means she'd be dead. More likely to be dead than when she's 81, I guess. But you go to prison from like, you know, 50 to fucking 81, you're not going to last. That you're going to.

[A]

They gave her as many years as they gave her. The earliest is going to be out at 20, 40. That's still so far away.

[B]

So long. It's so far away. Yeah. Another 20 years maybe would have added, since it's what, 20, 40. That'd be 40. So it's about two thirds of the sentence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that would add it another 13 years or some shit to it, which, I mean. Yeah, yeah, that might be the difference,

[A]

pretty much that she dies in there, but so maybe she'll. Maybe she'll get out and she'll have to have a CNA take care of her for the rest of her life,

[B]

wipe her ass and hopefully overdose her on something. But this is. I guess that's the difference between Maybe parole at 81 and maybe parole at 95.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is. So, yeah, they could be right about that. And that's their opinion. They're glad to have it. So this trial was covered really a lot locally. The Republic newspaper in Columbus, it took over their whole front page for a while there. Later featured on Oxygen Snapped. Any time a woman kills a man, it's on snapped, period. That's all it is. Season 17, episode 8 After the Verdict and also different specials. A Recipe for Murder, the Poison Pudding Murder.

[A]

I mean, that shit's Poison in the first place.

[B]

I love pudding.

[A]

Yeah, but not Jello, right?

[B]

Oh, not. What do you mean? Jello or pudding or Jell o pudding? Jell O brand pudding. Yeah.

[A]

That shit's disgusting.

[B]

I think it's great.

[A]

Do you?

[B]

I love it. Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Not the instant.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

I will not eat instant pudding.

[A]

It's just stir it up. That's disgusting.

[B]

One bite. Throw that shit right in the garbage. In a cup. Disgusting.

[A]

In a cup. I'll pour that in your asshole and eat it out, gents.

[B]

That's so. Yeah. I was like, are you crazy? Pudding cups, especially the mix with the vanilla and the chocolate together. Are you kidding? Not only that, the caramel cook and serve. The cook and serve is my favorite thing in the world because that has the pudding skin on it. And I am a huge fan of pudding skin. I make the cook and serve and I'll make two packages and then I gotta go on all my cabinets looking for things that are flat. So he makes the most pudding skin. I don't want tall and deep. I want short and wide. I don't care. So I love it and I don't care who knows it. Jimmy, I'm not embarrassed.

[A]

How do you do it? Is it like a chicken soup?

[B]

I mix it in. I mix it in with the pudding. That way every once in a while you get this little chunk of pudding.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I can see that.

[A]

I thought you were peeling it like a scuffle.

[B]

No, I'm eating all the whole pudding. No, no, no. So I have all of these containers out all over my counter and there's like boiled pudding everywhere, all over my countertops and floor. And then I have to take all of our good food out of the fridge and fill that with all these containers of pudding. And then I eat like seven of them in one night and I get myself super sick.

[A]

You're a monster.

[B]

I'm a monster. That's what happens when you smoke a bunch of weed and it's 2am and you have too much pudding in your cabinets.

[A]

They start adding pudding in their cabinets.

[B]

Like, fuck, I gotta eat that pudding. And then I have to wait for it. So I have to go in there and feel it. Is it still warm? No. I want to wait for it to get cold. Very impatient. I do. Fucking Jesus, I'm stoned. Well, I'll smoke more and then I'll come back and I'll have more pudding skin. I gotta do that. It's been a while since I've had any of that. So she goes to prison DOC. Number is 215966. She's in the Rockville Correctional Facility in Indiana. And we'll talk about her appeals in a second here. But a few similar cases because this is a very common thing that goes on poison. Very common. Yeah. Poison of a. I made you this, and it's poison type of shit. That's crazy. Like. But you know what? It shows planning. Like, if a man was trying to poison you, they'd grab you in a headlock and go, you fucking this in your fucking mouth right now. And they try to, like, stuff it into your face. You eat the fucking poison. Yeah, that's not.

[A]

We don't make desserts. We make, like, cheeseburgers and steaks. You gonna put some fucking poison on a cheeseburger? I will not ruin my cheese.

[B]

You show up with a pudding recipe, someone's suspicious.

[A]

Somebody's gonna ask a question.

[B]

Timmy doesn't make pudding. Did you crumble cookie on that? I don't believe it for a second. Not buying it.

[A]

It's asphalt, isn't it?

[B]

No fucking way. Yeah. What is that? What'd you put on there? Is that ashes? Is that cigarette ashes? What are you doing?

[A]

So much.

[B]

So.

[A]

You know what? My daughter just had a volleyball thing, and we made cupcakes and took them to the girls. And I just dropped her off with the girls. And then the girls were like, where'd these come from? And Presley was like, my dad and I made them. They didn't eat a single fucking cupcake.

[B]

You don't look like a reliable cupcake source.

[A]

Apparently he's saying that bald guy with the beard made him. That nobody's eating.

[B]

They're like, there's at least beard hair in here somewhere. Never mind. They're not eating it. I go.

[A]

I go press out with the cupcakes. And she goes. She goes, oh, we threw them all away. I was like, all of them? She goes, nobody ate any of them. I'm like, why not you? And she goes, I didn't want one.

[B]

I was like, what the fuck? I eat your cooking all the time.

[A]

What the fuck, man? They were delicious. They were funfetti. I loved them. I ate them.

[B]

I had those before.

[A]

I sent them with her.

[B]

Those are good. As with the.

[A]

With the little inside. Yeah.

[B]

The speckles, the big chewy.

[A]

Yeah, not the. Not the sprinkles. We. We get the good ones.

[B]

Yeah, it's in there. Yeah, it's in the. So this is. That's why men don't usually have this poisoning thing. And we usually go about it a little more of a violent way. Whereas a lot of times a woman, you know, if they're smaller or they don't have whatever, this is the way they have to go about it. So this is mainly a womany crime here. Number one, Corey Richards. First of all, I mean, first and foremost, this is a very similar case to Corey Richards. Very similar.

[A]

Minus the food, right?

[B]

No, she put it in a drink. But she had tried to poison him with a sandwich.

[A]

Oh, with several things, yeah.

[B]

A month and a half before that, or on Valentine's Day with a sandwich. Tune into Patreon for more on that. But she had tried to poison him with that shit and then just kept at it. She's like, you never give up is what you do there.

[A]

Keep making food that tastes shitty. He's gonna eat one.

[B]

Yeah, he'll get used to it. He'll just think, maybe my taste buds are going wrong here.

[A]

Maybe it's me.

[B]

Maybe it's me. There's also Sabrina Lyman, who, in California was convicted in 2017. She and her lover, a guy named Jonathan Hearn, who was a firefighter, plotted to kill her husband, Robert Lyman. They first attempted arsenic poisoning by lacing his favorite banana pudding. We're up to pudding again, I guess. Cause people think it's real sweet, and if you mix it in, you don't see it. So it'll kind of dissolve in there.

[A]

They eat fucking plugs of that shit.

[B]

Yeah, people just eat pudding, but they know what pudding tastes like, is the thing. I know I can pick a shit pudding out. Oh, gosh, gross.

[A]

Caramel and chocolate blend. If I take a big plug of that and it doesn't taste like what I know it tast, it's going right back in the sink.

[B]

That's it. Right in the garbage. And sending it to work with him. Sent the pudding to work with him. Sabrina reportedly placed it in his lunch, but later called to warn him not to eat it because, quote, the bananas had gone bad. Maybe they were spoiled. I realized I used spoiled bananas. So don't eat it.

[A]

Maybe she called to say that after he took. After he ate it. To try to be like.

[B]

To try to cover her, maybe possible. Or she had second thoughts, it's gonna get traced back to me. One of the two. Because that she. Because if you send it to work with him and then he drops dead at work now, that banana pudding is not in your control anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they're gonna take that banana pudding and test it the same way she made sure with that Other guy to take Tammy, made sure to take the bowl with her. And when they showed up with Corey, Corey Richards and all that, none of the glasses had traces of fentanyl in them. Cause they'd already been washed, you know what I'm saying? So it's shit like that. So anyway, that failed. Then they later staged a workplace shooting to look like a robbery.

[A]

That's how they did it.

[B]

This is fucking crazy. Hearn testified extensively, the firefighter about the pudding plan, including testing arsenic on a neighbor's dog. Oh, my God, could these people get worse? Some poor innocent fucking dog is gonna take the brunt of this.

[A]

What are you, head and shoulders? You're doing animal testing, you piece of shit.

[B]

This is fucking disgusting. Holy shit. A dog, too. Sabrina was convicted of first degree murder and conspiracy, but acquitted of the attempted poisoning charge due to lack of physical evidence. She got 25 to life, though. Wow, that's crazy. Here's another one that's sort of similar here. Stacey Castor. In New York, 2000 and 2005, she poisoned both of her husbands with antifreeze.

[A]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

Her first husband, Michael Wallace, died in 2000. Initially ruled a heart attack. And her second husband, David Castor, in 2005, initially staged as a suicide with a glass of antifreeze and a suicide note. She used a turkey baster to administer the poison. I hope she wasn't putting that in other places. When suspicion arose, she attempted to kill her daughter by spiking her drinks with pills and vodka and forging a note framing her daughter for the murders.

[A]

Oh, this bitch is crazy.

[B]

Somehow she's worse than the last one we just talked about with the dog. At least they didn't try to kill her kid, her daughter, and blame her for it too.

[A]

Frame her for the second for her second. She was going to kill a third and frame the third for her second for her second.

[B]

Now exhumation. I guess she got away with it. Pretty much. And then exhumation. Toxicology revealed antifreeze in both husbands. Wow. She was convicted of second degree murder for her husband and attempted murder against her daughter. How is it second degree murder? This is planned as fuck.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

You can't. Poison on a whim.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know what I mean? Or whatever. Wow. They had a fucking suicide note and shit and everything. That is diabolical. She died in prison in 2016.

[A]

Oh, that was fast.

[B]

Also, Joanne Curley In Pennsylvania, in 1991, she slowly poisoned her husband, Robert Curley, with thallium, which is from rat poison, over the Course of a year. She did this. That's diabolical. She started shortly after their marriage spiked his iced tea and food repeatedly, causing prolonged symptoms. And they're always misdiagnosed. And did we cover this one?

[A]

I feel like we covered this. Familiar.

[B]

Yeah. Well, also, it kept getting misdiagnosed as something else, because that I remember. And she finally gave him a massive dose in pizza and tea. And she pleaded guilty to third degree murder and served 20 years about. And was released in 2016.

[A]

Oh, Jesus. She's out there.

[B]

She's out there. Everybody take a look. And then finally, Audrey Marie Hilley in Alabama, convicted in 83. She's known as the Alabama Black Widow.

[A]

Oh, yeah. She poisons everybody.

[B]

She poisoned her husband Frank with arsenic over time, initially thought to be natural causes. Then she attempted to poison her daughter with arsenic while faking her own death and assuming a new identity. She collected insurance and remarried. And her second husband survived but got sick. Arsenic was detected and exhumed remains. She was convicted of murder and attempted murder. She escaped briefly, but was recaptured and died in prison.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

What a mess. Holy shit. Do I feel like we covered her, too. Marie, Hilly, perhaps.

[A]

Yeah. The women that do this, too are like, extra fucked up. Where they escape or they get out and change their name or there's an extra layer to their fucked up.

[B]

Yes. Cause to do this particular shit, you have to be fucking diabolical.

[A]

Over time is crazy. Over time, you're poisoning him eight, nine, ten times. And then finally a big one.

[B]

Well, even think about Tammy. Go back to Tammy. Five months of planning this, getting the drugs five months earlier. Think about five months. That. That's not. I'm mad and I choked this person to death or I shot them. That is fucking sick. You have so many opportunities to change your mind. Like, all the time in the world to change your mind. So, anyway, July 2011. Duvall's attorneys file a motion asking for the circuit court to correct errors in her trial and request that five of her insurance fraud convictions and two of her obstruction charges convictions and the sentences she received for those all be vacated in August of 2011. The judge denies the request to overturn seven of the 10 convictions and tells her, you're fine. Get your ass back to jail. September 2012 is her big appeal for the Indiana Court of Appeals. She appeals on these issues, whether the trial court abused its discretion in admitting Stephen Brown's testimony about the alleged poison, the prior poisoning. Because remember that they opened the door of the defense, and they're arguing they didn't so that's a real ticky tack legal thing they're arguing there. Which can overturn shit. Though. Whether the admission of testimony about the missing Roxanal at Miller's merry manor was fundamental error seems pretty relevant to this.

[A]

He's missing and there's some in him.

[B]

Yeah. Whether multiple insurance fraud and obstruction of justice conviction should be merged as a single continuing offense. So the murder conviction is affirmed. That's different. That's good. And then the judge wrote that as far as Stephen Brown's testimony, admission may have been technical error, but harmless. There was overwhelming independent evidence of guilt where they said, basically, if he didn't testify at all, you'd still find her guilty. Wouldn't matter. The rocks and all testimony. No fundamental error properly admitted as evidence of access to the murder weapon.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Makes perfect sense to me. And also insurance fraud and obstruction. The continuing crime doctrine applied. Six insurance fraud convictions were due to to one. Three obstruction convictions reduced to one. So they do that. They do the continuing crime doctrine. So those are all smushed into 1 rather than 6 and 3. So now there's that. October 24, 2012, her attorneys file a brief with the Indiana Court of Appeals asking for a rehearing. They deny her. They also petition the Supreme Court of Indiana to hear the case. In January of 2013, the Indiana Supreme Court declined to hear further appeal. We are sick of hearing from you.

[A]

Don't care. Yeah.

[B]

The court's refusal to hear her appeal means her only recourse is seeking post conviction relief by arguing a new point with none of the shit she's used, such as ineffective assistance of counsel. None of this shit has worked for her. She remains at the Rockville Correctional Facility. Her case got a lot of attention. Right. Nancy Grace devoted a full episode to it in August of 2010. What the. We can't get away from fucking Nancy Grace, man.

[A]

Oh, we never will.

[B]

We never will. She's going to just hear that voice always.

[A]

Always.

[B]

There's something. She's the most sanctimonious sounding human being ever heard.

[A]

Yeah. It seems like her tone. Yeah, she was right, evidently, a couple of times in her life somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And people loved it.

[A]

And now they can't get her voice. And I.

[B]

That's what I don't get.

[A]

I. I hate her.

[B]

I can't stand her. I can't stand her because.

[A]

Hate that word.

[B]

Her brand of prosecutor is a brand that is like. You know how you're going to act if you're a woman prosecutor in the South? And it's like her. Watch the stair. The trial in the Staircase. That lady that is like, exactly. She is the exact Nancy Grace prototype where she's like, he was bisexual, like, doing like that, like this. Mixing, like, you know, almost preaching in with this. Like, judge him for his lifestyle. Like, all. I just hate it.

[A]

He does not belong here.

[B]

Yeah. If you know what I mean.

[A]

You know where he belongs.

[B]

What I mean. Wink, wink.

[A]

Put him in there. Where he'll be happy.

[B]

Yeah. Where he'll be happy with all the others. They're gonna be floating around there. Just a float. That's the kind of thing that she sounds like to me. And I don't know if she's like that or not, but her voice. I don't like her. I don't care.

[A]

She just acts like somebody did this to her personally and nobody did. Nance, calm the fuck down.

[B]

She called it the Oreo Pudding Murder. Then there was the Snapped One Poisonous Love. That was the name of that episode. It was alongside the Nancy Kissel case, what we talked about. A double feature about wives who poison their husband. The ID Channel's Fatal Vows series covered the case in an episode titled Death for Dessert. Gross and his cousins, David Thompson, Donald Duvall, Barbara Honia Zilla Thompson or Zyla Thompson all appeared in the documentary coverage expressing grief and basically also the fact that they're just so mad for 100 grand. This is all for 100 grand. His cousin said she took a great guy out of all of our lives that we love dearly. He was just the light of the party and everybody cheered up when he showed up. He was just always so happy and so positive. They could have gave her 200 years. She ain't going to live long enough to live those out. So they gave her the rest of her life, but they didn't give her the rest of her life.

[A]

81. That's very doable.

[B]

That's doable. Yeah. Especially if she keeps in good shape. I don't know.

[A]

Especially a woman.

[B]

Yeah. Women live longer, period. Now this Crime Watch daily. This was 2016 also aired. This is season one, episode 84. Holy shit. How about a new season, guys? How Tammy Duvall Killed Her Husband Slash Placerville. Dead Husband slash Susie Bigamist. That's the name of the thing. They don't have Susie Bigamist.

[A]

They don't have enough episodes. Are they doing every 12 minutes a new episode?

[B]

I have no idea. How do you do it?

[A]

A murder in 12 minutes.

[B]

Crime watch Daily with Chris Hansen. He's like, I'll do your murder. I'll find out if you're a pedophile. I'll get it all done in 12 minutes.

[A]

Sally Bigamist.

[B]

We'll wrap up in a couple of minutes. Susie Bigamist. There was a book here that, I mean, we went through it, but it was mainly just the same shit from the court documents. There wasn't a whole lot of big revelations, but. But there might have been a couple of lines I got that only were in there, so I might as well give it out. Tammy Duvall, husband Killer is the name of it.

[A]

Right on the nose.

[B]

Nailed it Right on the Nose by Jesse Dillard. Jesse with an I. So, yeah, so there you go. Everybody there is Columbus, Indiana, and just some crazy shit. What is wrong with people?

[A]

It's unbelievable.

[B]

The more I hear about this stuff too. Like, we all, like, people give us food all the time. People we know. Oh, yeah, you go to people's houses.

[A]

We show up to clubs and people bring us fresh baked cookies all the time.

[B]

And we eat them and we fucking eat them.

[A]

We are morons.

[B]

We eat them and we don't even think twice about it.

[A]

We're absolute idiots.

[B]

We smell it and we go, that looks great. That smells great. We start eating shit.

[A]

I bring them home, I put them in my bag, put them on a plane with me, get them home and throw them at my kids.

[B]

Here. Kids eat this. You want to test this out? I haven't tried it yet.

[A]

It's my face. Somebody made that.

[B]

Think about, like, doordash, that's a stranger

[A]

that is bringing you food.

[B]

Or fucking Uber eats. Yeah.

[A]

The amount of hands between your mouth and that cheeseburger's beginning. It's like 11.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, and they've always had food delivery, but it was someone who worked for the restaurant that they, you know, hasn't poisoned anybody in the millions of deliveries they made. I don't know if this person's. Who knows.

[A]

We are very trusting.

[B]

We're very trusting, all of us, with our food. And I think about that all the time. And I think to myself, like, I get ridiculous thoughts because I'm like, is Sarah gonna poison me? And then I'm like, no, I don't think so. She doesn't seem like the poisoning type. And she loves food, so I feel like she wouldn't want to make food taste shitty, so she wouldn't want to do it. So she'd be like, I would make it taste bad. I'll find another way to kill them.

[A]

I feel bad to ruin a steak with Poison. I really would.

[B]

I would, too. Yeah, especially those first couple bites, you know, before they just keel over and die. They're going to be like, you suck at cooking. They're going to think your food sucks, and you're going to have to live with that. And then they drop dead.

[A]

Their last thought on Earth. Boy, Jimmy makes a shit steak. No, I don't.

[B]

Jimmy doesn't. Season this for. Put some bullshit on this. What do you put on this? Crushed up aspirin? This tastes like shit.

[A]

What'd you soak?

[B]

Would you soak this in Listerine? It's terrible. This is peak, too. That's the important part. Don't stop short of the peak, Jimmy. You know how it works. Holy shit. So there you go. There's Columbus, Indiana.

[A]

Unreal.

[B]

A goddamn crazy episode and crazy people doing crazy things. And honestly, Alan seemed like a party. He seemed like a fun guy.

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

Seemed like a guy you wouldn't mind hanging out with. Seemed like a cool dude.

[A]

Not a dude to kill. Over 100 grand, that's for sure.

[B]

Oh, give me a fucking break. Come on, man.

[A]

I'd rather get in a $100,000 Corvette with him with a scaracuzzi and move on down the road.

[B]

You got an extra koozie? Sure do, buddy. And then you guys pull off together. You're Thelma and Louise, Thelma and Cousy

[A]

over here cooking those T tops.

[B]

Al, it's T top time, baby. Let's do it. So if you like this story, tell everyone you know about it. And also tell the Internet, get on whatever app you are on and whatever app you listen on and give us five stars. And if you're watching on Netflix, pull up one of these apps and give us five stars. Who cares? You can do it. You have a podcast and tell Netflix you love it too. Yeah, the more you tell them, the better. So do that. Keep coming back and listening over and over again. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com tickets for live shows are there, as well as all of our merchandise. Anything you can think of, from skateboards to coffee mugs to shower curtains, we have it. And also live shows. Get your tickets right now. Next date with tickets available because May 1st in Salt Lake City is sold out. May 2nd in Denver has a few tickets left, so you can get in there and get those. May 29, Buffalo, sold out. But Royal Oak, Michigan, May 30 is not sold out. Few tickets, and I mean a few left for that one. So if you want to go that's so sparse. Yeah, you better get them right now. Get in there right now. Then after the summer. September 18th, Milwaukee. September 19th, Minneapolis. October 3rd, Dallas. October 16th, San Jose, California. October 17th, Sacramento, California. November 11th, Tarrytown, New York, the Tarrytown Music Hall. Beautiful, cool old venue. Really nice place. Just feels like comedy in there. It's good. And then the 14th of November in Boston, also at the Chevalier, which is also a great theater. Real cool place there too. So come out and see us. And it's not like in the trafficky part of.

[A]

No, it's up in Medford.

[B]

It's in the outskirts. So yeah, it's great. It's in Medford. So if you're like, ugh, I don't want to drive in there. You don't have to. You can go around it and you can avoid all those loops and circles and shit that they have there. So come out and see us there. We cannot wait to see you guys. That's shutupandgivemerder.com. you also want to follow us on social media. Smalltown murder on Instagram, Smalltown pot on Facebook. Then get yourself Patreon. What are you doing? Be a part of it. Our Patreon is. We're very proud of it, $5 a month or above. And you can put whatever you want. But anybody, $5 a month or above, and we're not raising it, we're not. Anything else can be as expensive as it wants to be. Our Patreon is five bucks, period. We don't want to price people out of it. We just don't. We've been told by so many, you can make more money, we don't care. We're not pricing people out of this. We want them to enjoy it and we want them to like it. So anybody, $5 a month or above. And if you want to throw more in, feel free, go ahead. But you're going to get everything that we put out, including, as soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back bonus episodes over 300, between three and 400. There's a shitload of them there. As many episodes as that lady had Flexoril pills in the bottle, tons of them. And anybody, $5 a month or above, you get everything. You get those subscriptions as soon as you get it, then new ones every other week. One crime in sports and one small town murder. This week is no different for crime and sports. We're going to talk about. I believe it's pronounced the Ecclesia Athletic Association.

[A]

I'll take it.

[B]

This was. That sounds Good. To me, this was an organization to keep inner city youth off the streets and help them with sports and things like that. And of course, it turned into a disgusting mess of horribleness. Then for Small Town Murder, Part two of Cory Richens, the most fascinating case I've ever heard in my life. And I've watched the whole trial and we're right in the middle of it and it's a lot checked out.

[A]

Bad wife.

[B]

Look, bad wife, bad mom, bad person. And if you're on the fence about checking this out, read the comments from Patreon about how much people loved this episode because they loved it. And we're going to give you more. They loved it. They're going to give you more. We're going to give you more. This week, the trials and even bigger spectacles. That's going to be awesome. Can't wait to do that. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all that and you get everything we put out. Crime and sports, your stupid opinions and small town murder all ad free with your Patreon as well. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right goddamn now. Jimmy, do me a favor and hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world whose cookies we can trust to not be full of poison. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now.

[A]

This executive producer Gary Howard and Gary Indiana. James. Gary and Gary Gary. Holy happy hours in Buffalo, Texas.

[B]

Buffalo, Texas. Wow, look at the lake effect down there. I feel like.

[A]

Yeah, exact Tax solutions also they that time of year. Your tax needs this time of year. That's A. Amy and Danny in Denver. I'll see you guys soon. Matthew Benitez. Thank you very much. Mel B. Not that one. Shelly McGlone and Sarah in Texas. Happy birthday, Sarah. What a big day.

[B]

Sarah in Texas.

[A]

Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender, Janice Hill, Ashley with no last name. Candice Yashaz. You, Shaz. Ria with no H. Heather Utt, Bailey Reynolds Chon with no last name. Connor Morgan.

[B]

Kenneth Marks.

[A]

It C, H, O, N. I think not.

[B]

Tron or Chong. Never mind.

[A]

No, it could even be an autocorrect. I don't know if I really wrote that.

[B]

Who knows either way? Sorry, John. I guess.

[A]

Yeah. Kenneth Mark. Sarah. Carlin Stearns. Kimberly Bowman. Toaster Bath Sounds lovely. Esther Cruz. Ari would know last name. Jenna Gooley. Jenny B. Jasmine Montanez, Jason Guyan. Gajan. Savannah Hill. Annie.

[B]

Jesus, you're all off there on that one.

[A]

Annie with no last name.

[B]

He brought out the Coffin on him.

[A]

Crossroad. Elise Miller, Henry Williams, Maggie May, Clara Absolan Nova D with no last name. Diana win Rich Koger. Ram 107. Megan DeShawn, Runjay Runge Runji. Chris Sager, Glenn Scarbaca, Ann Marie McCormick. 1, 2, 4. Pomegranates. I don't know if that's an address. Pomegranates or if they just don't do threes around there. Sean McGuire, Naomi S. Alexis Waf Wag Justin Collins. Nina Allen. Ben with no last name. Christian with no Last name. Justin McElroy. Kate R. Anthony Sheridan. Loose end. Oh, I got it. I see it there now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

L, U, C, E. And James.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. Teresa Sch School. Shah. I don't know. Nocturne Rich with no last name. Anne Marie Hefty. That's a lot of Anne Marie's. Has there been three?

[B]

Keaton Rayer, Ryer.

[A]

Rehear.

[B]

The most Anne Marie's. In all of podcasting, we have Anna Marie.

[A]

Yeah, like the. There's a song, there's a country song called Anna Marie.

[B]

I don't know it.

[A]

Google it. Frankie McDonough, Zachary Moffatt, AEV. Is that Ave or AV? I don't know. Briggy Smalls, Trisha Olson, Jennifer Coleman Vargo. Ben Newsome, Tabitha with no last name. Melanie Deaton, Parker Manning D Dub Chris Eagley. Ashley with no last name. Isabella Hall. Jeff with no last name. Charo with no last name. Garrett Albright, Liz Clark, George Stish, Samantha Hoffman, Krista Martin, Debbie Glaser, Matt Ramos, Kelly Gordon, Tyler Moore, Janan Gnn. Janan Hostin. Hoston. Matuse Benatch. What is Matuse? Binach is a name. Was there a Ben Newsome already? I don't know. Colby Hoff. John Thomas Gav with no last name. Emily Young, Elizabeth Brandon. Killian. Killian Killian. Hubble Hubell. Chrissy Brown, Quinn Richards. Are you related? Kim Reese. Quang. Quanked. Farm Crew. Quan Quant. Farm Crew.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The Quan Quant.

[B]

All right, say that 10 times.

[A]

I can't say it one time. Craig Shuchart. Jordan Butler. Dara Drew Evetz Everts Everett's Nicole Satka. Yasmine White. Heavy Cream. The Fat Housewife. What does that mean? Beach Girl.

[B]

Off.

[A]

I don't even want to chance it. Nina Gina with no last name. Gianna. Gianna Kefalis. Celeste Blythe. Bev with no last name. Melissa with no last name. Vicky Rose, Tim Endlich. Rachel with no last name. What is this? Rachel? All right. Elizabeth Peters. Stefani with no last name. That's probably Stephanie. Jacob.

[B]

Yeah. Stefani. Maybe it's spelled like Glenn.

[A]

I don't know. Jaco Jacob, Joe Jacich, Frisch, Lori H. Denbina, Cheryl Cushing, Oman, Matt Marshall, Christina Croke, Austin Winiker, Karen Miller, Dominique Delisandro, Dalesandro, Alaina Dick. That's with a Y. Audrey Baroque, Barack Baroque, Robert Bjorn, Hannah Crossland, Trish, Tracy Fisher, Darrell Baranowski, Nicole with no last name. Joey Benefiel, Hope Gato, Melvin Christ, and all of our patrons. You guys are the best.

[B]

Thank you so much, everybody, for all that you do for us. Honestly, you guys are incredible. We can't do any of this without you. Well, honestly, we probably could, but it would be really pointless.

[A]

I'm boring.

[B]

And boring, because we'd do it and then put it out and there'd be nobody to listen to it. It'd just be us talking about it. So stupid. We'd be better off just talking on the phone at that point rather than flying across the country to be in each other's presence to film all the time. That would be much easier. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media? Shutupandgivemerder.com has dropdown menus. Take you wherever you need to go. Keep coming back week after week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, everybody. Listening to small town murder out there. Hi.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad. But not an ad for a product. This is an ad for the best.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Come see a live show. The 2026. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets though, to your stupid opinions. On 21 March, Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2nd. May 29th, Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30th, we have September 18th, Milwaukee. September 19th, Minneapolis. October the the third in Dallas. October 16th in San Jose. October 17th in Sacramento, November 13th in Tarrytown. November 14th in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun. Make some new friends like crazy and make some new friends come out and see us. Shut up and give me. Murder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

[A]

See you on the road.

[B]

Group chat getting quiet Drop a TikTok clip.

[A]

Trends, memes, hot topics, instant reactions, endless

[B]

replies Keep the vibe alive.

[A]

Download TikTok now.