Serial Butcher Killer - Parkersburg, West Virginia

Summary

Small Town Murder: Serial Butcher Killer - Parkersburg, West Virginia

Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman | Released on June 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Small Town Murder, hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman delve deep into a chilling case from Parkersburg, West Virginia. Combining thorough research with their signature comedic flair, they explore the dark underbelly of a seemingly quiet town and the horrifying actions of a serial killer with a background in butchery.

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Background of William Dean Wickline Jr.

William Dean Wickline Jr., born in 1952 in Reynoldsburg, Ohio, emerges as a central figure in this narrative. Growing up in a blue-collar family, Wickline exhibited troubling behaviors from a young age. Described by peers as "very direct and didn't smile a lot," his early years were marred by violence and antisocial tendencies.

• Notable Quote:
  Jimmy (25:31): “He’s a weird, real weird guy.”

Wickline's path took a darker turn post his involvement in the Vietnam War. Struggling to reintegrate into society, he turned to drug dealing, establishing himself in the underworld and earning the nickname "the Butcher" due to his gruesome methods.

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The Murder of Charles Morgan Marsh

On November 20, 1979, the tranquility of Marsh's household was shattered. Marsh, a 33-year-old Vietnam veteran and drug dealer, was found brutally murdered. His head was severed and left on a nightstand, accompanied by a chilling note: "I came, you weren't home. I love you."

• Notable Quote:
  Jimmy (26:08): “He’d had his throat cut and his head cut off, obviously. They have his head sitting there.”

The dismemberment suggested a level of expertise typically associated with butchers, hinting at the killer's possible background in the trade.

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Investigation Challenges

The initial investigation proved difficult. Police found no fingerprints, signs of forced entry, or other physical evidence linking anyone to the crime. Marsh's involvement in the drug trade added layers of complexity, with money and illicit substances intertwining in the case.

• Notable Quote:
  Jimmy (35:19): “This is a scene you would tell people about for years. What's the craziest thing you ever saw? Well, let me tell you something. It's this.”

Wickline's subsequent arrests for unrelated drug offenses scattered evidence and made it harder for authorities to connect dots across different states.

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Connection to Other Murders

Over the years, more cases surfaced that bore striking similarities to Marsh's murder, all involving dismemberment and decapitation. Theresa Kemp, a close associate of Wickline, testified about her involvement in these gruesome acts, implicating Wickline as the mastermind behind the killings.

• Notable Quote:
  Jimmy (69:12): “Wickline is the most dangerous man I've ever encountered in all the years of my career.”

Despite the mounting evidence and witness testimonies, Wickline maintained his innocence, leading to prolonged legal battles and appeals.

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Trial and Conviction

In a high-profile trial, Wickline faced charges for the murders of Christopher and Peggy Ann Lurch. The prosecution painted him as a calculated and remorseless killer, citing his meticulous methods of disposing bodies.

• Notable Quote:
  Jimmy (132:10): “Katherine Ramsland ... she knows a lot of gross. A lot of gross shit here.”

Wickline's defense attempted to discredit testimonies, particularly those of Theresa Kemp, arguing coercion and financial motives behind her statements. However, the court found him guilty, resulting in a life sentence for one murder and the death penalty for the other.

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Appeals and Execution

Wickline's journey through the legal system was fraught with appeals, all of which were denied. By 2004, his execution was set for March 30. Despite his efforts to argue ineffective assistance of counsel and highlight mitigating factors, the courts upheld his convictions.

• Notable Quote:
  James (166:35): “He doesn’t care.”

On the day of his execution, Wickline was portrayed as a composed and unrepentant individual, further cementing his image as the "Butcher" in the annals of Ohio's criminal history.

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Post-Incident Revelations

Years after Wickline's death, revelations came to light confirming that Chester McKnight was the true perpetrator behind several dismemberment murders, including the Lurch case. McKnight's confession in 2008 exonerated others wrongly convicted, highlighting significant failures in the initial investigations.

• Notable Quote:
  Jimmy (170:11): “Chester McKnight, confessed in 2008. That is fucking wild.”

These developments underscored the complexities and challenges law enforcement faces in solving intricate and gruesome crimes.

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Conclusion

This episode of Small Town Murder serves as a sobering reminder of the fallibility of the criminal justice system and the enduring quest for truth. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, James and Jimmy shed light on a case that intertwines violence, deception, and the relentless pursuit of justice in small-town America.

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For more in-depth discussions and upcoming episodes, visit shutupandgivemurder.com and follow Small Town Murder on Instagram and Facebook. Don’t forget to support the show on Patreon for exclusive content and shout-outs!

Transcript

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

NMLS 696891 this week in Parkersburg, West Virginia. What at first appears to be a simple yet horrifying drug murder turns out to not be so simple, but ends up leading to a serial killer with no remorse and a background in butchery who has killed many times before. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[James Petregallo]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today. We have a absolute wild show for you today. This guy is a monster. And just a some people kill for like, you know, a reason. They want insurance money, they want this person out of the way. They want, you know, there's a lot of reasons. This person really likes it. He just loves it. Bloodlust is a certain type of killer and this guy is wild. We'll talk about all that and more. Definitely. Before you do that, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com to get your tickets. Well, first of all, get all your merchandise at and wear that merchandise and bring it to live shows starting back up in the fall. A lot of them are selling out right now. The ones with tickets right now are Irvine, California there outside LA at the Irvine Improv. We have Seattle in November, Portland sold out the night before, and then we have D.C. and Philly in December as well. And there's some tickets left there too. So get your tickets now if you want to go because they sell fast. So thank you to everybody that's done that. Shut up and give me murder. Don't also listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which we are starting a long series on the i5 killer, Randall Woodfield, who was a football player for about five minutes and then a murderer for years and years. So we'll talk all about that and also your stupid opinions where we go all over the Internet and find people's opinions and reviews of things and trash their reviews. So that's a lot of fun. Do that and then get yourself patreon. Yeah, patreon.com crimeinsports just like the name of our other show that will get you anybody, $5 a month or above will get you everything. Hundreds and hundreds of back episodes you're gonna get immediately upon subscription and new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small tau burger, and you, my friends, will get it all. This week we're gonna talk about. For crime and sports, we're gonna talk about the Liver King. That lunatic. This guy who said if you eat liver, you can look like a 1980s professional wrestler without steroids or anything. Turns out none of that's true. And I can't believe he's alive. I thought he was dead and then I found out that he's not. Then for small town murder, we are gonna talk about some weird alien stuff. Let's go down the alien rabbit hole and talk about what we thought in the 40s and 50s, what we're thinking now. There's some conspiracy stuff about alien whistleblowers, UFO whistleblowers being murdered all over the country. It's crazy stuff. We'll get into all of it. We're gonna smoke a little weed and just go right down the rabbit hole with this. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Patreon Do Crime in sports is where you get all of that and more. And you get a shout out at the end of the show too. Jimmy will try to pronounce your name correctly. But names are hard. Let's be realistic here. You might not recognize your name, but damn it, he'll say it. So there you go. That said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. That does not mean that anything in the show is not real, though. Everything is excruciatingly and horribly real. We wish it wasn't. If I could make up stories like this week after week, first of all, I wouldn't be doing this. I'd be living next door to Stephen King, I'm sure, because that's the level of crazy you'd have to be to write that many stories. So everything is real. Nothing is embellished for comedic effect. Unfortunately. This is all just horrible, horrible reality. And there's jokes to be made about that. But here's what we do to make it palatable here. We don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[James Petregallo]

Why, James?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Because we're assholes.

[James Petregallo]

But.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? That's perfect. So I think if you, if you think that, you know, true crime and comedy never Go together. You might not like us, but if you want to give it a shot and want to not complain about it later, I think it's time everybody to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we?

[James Petregallo]

We have to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We're going to West Virginia this week again. Oh, we are back. West Virginia never disappoints us. We'll say that. That is. It's kind of. It's.

[James Petregallo]

It can.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, we're disappointed in what happened, but. Yeah, but like, if you're a new listener, like, when it's West Virginia time, all the established listeners are real excited. They're like, oh, it's a West Virginia. Here we go again. Because there's so much crazy there. And this also Ohio, you can take some credit, too, for this crazy. This week, we're going to believe West.

[James Petregallo]

Virginia has a song that everybody knows.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They all. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They don't deserve.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a wild state, man. Yeah, it's. Whenever you look at, like, statistics of, like, you know, 1 to 50 in something, they're always 49 or 50 and everything. And that's. I feel bad.

[James Petregallo]

They're not doing great.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, it's. It's a tough state to live in here. It's pretty. I've driven through it. Hills are nice. It's the ones.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I like green Fucking freeway speeds.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the thing. Do it from 75 miles an hour. It looks great. Parkersburg, West Virginia, we're going to here. It's in northwestern West Virginia, kind of on the side of the chicken. It's like a chicken West Virginia. If you look at it laid out, it's kind of on the side of the chicken there. It's about an hour and 50 minutes to Columbus, Ohio, where some of this is going to take place. About 2 hours and 50 minutes to Princeton, West Virginia. Our last West Virginia episode, the Fugitive Temptress, which was a good one. That was again, West Virginia, always. This is in Wood county, area code 304. It has a lot of nicknames and. And mottos and everything else. Here. Here's the nicknames. The Berg, which is. Pittsburgh already has that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The next one is P. Berg, which again, they certainly. Pittsburgh, again, home of the world champion Steelers. Is that next we can put up there. What are you talking about?

[James Petregallo]

You guys also have a billboard of Lynn Swan welcoming you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Is that at the airport? Franco Harris thing, like in Pittsburgh Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You're a statue of Franco Harris.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what greets you. Franco Harris. I love it. That's why I like Pittsburgh. It's great. The savings bond capital of America. Which. That's exciting, right?

[James Petregallo]

Can't be right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The marble capital of the world.

[James Petregallo]

I don't think that's true.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't think that's probably right either.

[James Petregallo]

I think that's Italy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think so. And then the motto here is where West Virginia began. Which it's sort of. I see that on the edge of the state. So kind of. I guess if you're coming from Ohio, if you're coming from the east, it wouldn't be. But whatever.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know a lot of West Virginia history. I'm gonna say this. I know zero West Virginia history. But I don't think any of that is true.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a lot of. No. And they're not the Pburg either or any of that shit. They're out of their minds.

[James Petregallo]

None of that's real.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know what they're trying to do here. Little bit of history. Settlers first named the city Newport when they settled here. And then realize there's about 100 of those and usually have to touch water to be a Newport.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know, that was right after the Revolutionary War though. A town section was laid out on grand on land granted to Alexander Parker for his exemplary Revolutionary War service. So. And then Parker's burg. So Virginia made grants of land to veterans for their war service back then. So there was title conflicts between Parker and the city planners of Newport. And they settled that. And then they renamed the town Parkersburg in 1810. So it became a major oil refining center in the late 1800s. So when we were first refining oil, I guess there was nearby oil fields by here. So West Virginia, they will extract some shit from the earth. Oil, coal, everything we got. If it's in there. They just wish everything could. They could just turn the land upside down. That would be perfect for them.

[James Petregallo]

West Virginia over.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Can we just do that?

[James Petregallo]

Just getting our ass.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get this over with. Yeah. The Camden Consolidated Oil Company, which was founded in 1866, was the big refining business. Who was later. And it was later sold to Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company. Oh yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Here's how Rockefeller got rich. By turning West Virginia into fucking underground fire mine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's how a lot of people got rich.

[James Petregallo]

Really?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. By sending people in terribly unsafe conditions to die in a mine.

[James Petregallo]

Mr. Rockefeller.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh yeah. That's a robber baron. Why do you think they're called robber barons.

[James Petregallo]

It's not a good point.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know what I mean? Bad word reviews of this town. Five stars. Here we go. Parkersburg is a jewel of a town. A jewel. Wow. Situated on the banks of the Ohio river, it has the friendliest people and ranks very low in criminal activity. Not according to every other goddamn review I've read, but that's fine. Located less than half a day's drive from Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, or Washington D.C. yeah. Makes Parkersburg the perfect place for a weekend trip. Or a great place to relocate. No, no, don't think so. The weather allows for relocation.

[James Petregallo]

I have not considered West Virginia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I haven't said, what about the Pburg? What about that? The weather allows you to enjoy all four seasons, but usually not brutally cold or hot conditions. I've lived in nearby states and I wouldn't want to live anywhere but here. Loves it. Here's four stars. I wish we had a bigger town with more options to do around here and possibly fix the roads, but other than that, the people are nice. Other than the roads, other than there's nothing to do and you destroy your car trying to do them. But the people are nice people.

[James Petregallo]

Smile.

[Jimmy Wissman]

When you blow out a wheel or knock your axle off your car. Someone will pull over and try to help you. That's nice.

[James Petregallo]

This happened to me last week.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't worry about it. Happens all the time.

[James Petregallo]

I got zip ties. Hold on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yep, put that muffler right back on. Get your wheel going. Here's one star. This place is the worst of the worst. Not the worst of the worst. The worst of the worst of the worst.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, the worst.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The worst.

[James Petregallo]

How did you do that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know, but it hurt my brain and I had to read it four times.

[James Petregallo]

How do you get one right and then fuck up the next one?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That made me go, am I wrong? That was one of those, right? Is this my bad? And then I was like, no, it's not. That's a statement. Thieves and addicts everywhere, needles all over the place, even at the parks. It's ridiculous. I can't wait to move. Yeah, you can see people see things very differently through different prisms. Here's another one. Lots of rehab facilities here. Plus several high profile murder missing persons cases involving young women are active in the area. Just Google Gretchen Fleming for one. Cindy Ball is another. If I were a young single female, I would not relocate here. So somebody.

[James Petregallo]

What is going on?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Somebody responded to that review with a review of that review. Quote, you're being ridiculous. Any missing person Is too many. But Parkersburg is hardly unsafe for a single woman. There are Gretchen's and Cindy's everywhere. Don't be so dramatic. What? What the hell is going on here?

[James Petregallo]

People go missing all the time. Shut up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Calm down. Who cares?

[James Petregallo]

A missing person. That's a dead lady.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably somebody's head's missing. It happens all the time. This is crazy. One star. Parkersburg is the worst place to live. I've been here 20 years. No jobs unless it's fast food. Nothing to do except bars. Drugs are thick in most areas. Thick, thick, thick. Drugs. Never heard that term before, have you?

[James Petregallo]

This is why West Virginia is so fascinating.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Drugs. Seems like only people who grew up here and never lived anywhere else like it. In fact, I'm moving in two months. Not only out of Parkersburg, but out of the state.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Godspeed, my friend. Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Don't write that and then disappear.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's the thing. You're gonna disappear. Is your name Gretchen?

[James Petregallo]

Cindy, perhaps?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, no, it's a. It's a review from Gretchen. Oh. Not to mock that, but shit. People in this town. 29,910. So not a big town, not a small town. Yeah, it's kind of. I mean, it's a small town, it's not a big city. But it's not like a little tiny hamlet like some of the ones we've been doing lately. Men and women, it's about even 50, 50. Female is 50. 50.2. Median age is a few years older. It's 42 and 0.3. So a few years older than the average. Less married people than usual. It's usual. 50, 50. Here it's about 43%. Little higher divorce rate. More people single with children here. Race, Racial breakdown in the town. 93.4% white, 2.1% black, 0.3% Asian, 0.2% Native American, 1.2% Hispanic. So there's breakdown. We have religion, 45.6% religious, which is actually below the national average of 50%. But the high one, it's a horse race. There's other Christian faith. There's Methodists here. But Baptists are going to take it. Sure.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So we know Baptists are the Catholics of the coal region. I guess. I don't know. Not sure. Turner overs, not positive. Unemployment, little bit high. A little bit above the national average. Median household income, definitely low. In the rest of the country, it's a little. Almost 70,000, basically here it is. $38,960.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, it's doing okay. That's A rich man in West Virginia.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, here. Well, let's find out. Cost of living in this town. 100 is regular. Average here it's 78.

[James Petregallo]

That's not bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not that low. The housing is the low one. That's. Everything else is kind of high actually. Healthcare is like really high. Median home cost here, $133,400, which is not a lot here. So if we've convinced you you don't care, that's. I got a new motto for you. Who cares? Just move to Parkersburg. We have for you the Parkersburg West Virginia real estate report. The average two bedroom rental here goes for about $830 a month, which is well below the national.

[James Petregallo]

Pretty, pretty affordable. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Here's house number one. It's nothing spectacular. I got a picture for you. I'll move the screen so you can see it there.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean it's awful. Not awful, not great.

[James Petregallo]

My childhood home.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The curtains are West Virginia university blankets.

[James Petregallo]

That's a. Oh, those Mountaineer blankets.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But there's one up there and then one. One window has an actual curtain in it. So that's a bad sign. Sheets or their sheets. One of the two, three bedroom, one bath. It does not tell you the square footage. It looks like about. About a 1200 square foot house. I'm going to say.

[James Petregallo]

Is that upstairs down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that two stories? Two stories, but it's a small little box there. This house, I mean it's not terrific, I'll say that much. But you could live in it. $45,000 for that.

[James Petregallo]

Not bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean if you need a place to live.

[James Petregallo]

And when have you seen a $45,000 actually livable home?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what I mean. Yeah. I mean it's not like I said, it's not ideal. You're not going to go on hgtv, but it's. You can live there.

[James Petregallo]

A bridge between your settled place.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. There's a bathroom with a toilet and stuff.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's say you just want to. You just want to get away from people and you don't give a shit. And you don't even need a house. You just need a tree to live under. Here is 85.76 acres of it. Looks like a whole hollered all to yourself here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This 85.76 acres, $100,000. So that's only a slightly over 1,000 bucks an acre. That is cheap. Cheap.

[James Petregallo]

They got me considering West Virginia now, James.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. And then Here is a six bedroom, six bath tea bowl for each and every B hole. 5,800 square foot house, I assume.

[James Petregallo]

Show me this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You have to be like the head coach of the football team of the college.

[James Petregallo]

What the fuck?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It looks like an English. It looks like something that.

[James Petregallo]

Is that all brick?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. It looks like something Prince Harry gave up to move to California. That's what it looks like.

[James Petregallo]

It's like live with a friend.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It looks like an old English crazy cottage chateau. It's wild. It's only a third of an acre. But the house is crazy.

[James Petregallo]

That's all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The whole house, all the land? That's it. And your little front yard. That's it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

675,000 bucks for that. It's 6,000 square foot house. Beautiful too. Inside it's nice. Classy. It's built in 1939. Anyway, things to do here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

All right. Number one, the Honey Festival, right? Oh, the West Virginia Honey Festival. It's actually about honey too. It's not a euphemism for anything.

[James Petregallo]

Bringing your gal.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's held inside the city park where we celebrate the many uses of honey, educate the public about the significance of the honey bee and offer a diverse range of honey products. That's the festival.

[James Petregallo]

Is there more things to do with honey than ingest it?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know. I think you can, you know, apparently you can build a house with it. You can mortar some breakfast. A lot of stuff to do with honey. And then there's the Mid Ohio Valley Multicultural Festival. Multicultural Festival?

[James Petregallo]

Is that multi?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's find out. Their description is where can you find a Chinese lion dancer, hula dancers, a Middle Eastern belly dancer, Italian dancers and an African drummer all sharing the stage at the same time? Well, in my nightmares, that's one. Just because that sounds like an awful performance, I don't want to watch all those people doing all these disparate things at the same time. It just looks like a mess. One at a time, everybody, is what I'm saying. Where will you find Latin, Celtic, Native American blues, reggae and roots musicians all performing at the same event? Where can you eat traditional Polish, Polish pierogies, French grapes, Thai noodle bowl, Italian pizza? That's exotic.

[James Petregallo]

Probably Italian pizza prowl in Vegas somewhere.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Any main street of any decent sized town in America. Basically you can go down and do that. Kettle corn, Southern pulled pork ribs and brisket, old fashioned ice cream, fresh squeezed lemonade and an all American hot dog within steps of one another. It's only here at the Multicultural Festival. Yeah. We have Master Sen Gao performing Canine Yoshida.

[James Petregallo]

Sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sean Booker. Damn It Band.

[James Petregallo]

Sean Booker Dammit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sean Booker Dammit Band. That's literally the name of those guys. High schools that rock. And that's actually kids. Harriet Tubman will be performing at 1205. I don't know. We raised Harriet Tubman from the dead and now she's.

[James Petregallo]

She's not.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The first thing she did when she came back from the dead was say, I really want to perform at a festival in West Virginia. Mad Maudlin Allegro, Josh Donaway, Jensuya and Folkloric are all. Oh, also Grupo Fuego. I think we can say the Fire Group. The Fire Group. Steve Free and some hula dancers. So there you go. Wow. Oh, boy. There's some kind of show there. Crime rate in this town where you're interested in property crime, almost double the national average. Wow. That five star review was full of shit when it said no crime anywhere. Because that is a lot of crime. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and of course assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime. A little bit high above the national average, but not like double or anything like that. But still a little high. Seems like there's a lot of drug issues around here. If you've ever seen the wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia. Yeah. I mean, Boone county mate call and he shits.

[James Petregallo]

I've never seen a documentary on West Virginia that wasn't. Look how crazy the amount of drugs they do.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, it's a lot. So that said, let's talk about some murder here. Wow, we're gonna clog the pipes with murder this week. There's a lot. So let's go back in time to November 20, 1979. So back a good ways here. This is just for everybody. This is barely cable, obviously. No Internet, no cell phones.

[James Petregallo]

46 years ago.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, this is. I mean, if you had. You were hot shit in 1979. If you had a beta recorder, beta mics. Yeah, you're like that. VHS is a fad. That's going away. I'm sticking with Beta, man. That's what this is. So November 20, 1979. Let's talk about Charles Morgan Marsh is his name here now. Charles Morgan Marsh, he's born in 1946 and apparently everybody calls him Swampy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Which doesn't sound complimentary.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Or. Or West Virginian.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, he's not from there. He's from North South Carolina.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I know there's swamps there, but if you are a swampy person, I mean that's like dank and moist and stinky and yeah. There might be like unknown bugs popping out of it to Give you weird diseases and shit. It's. Anything could happen there. So at this point, though, he is. What is he, 33 years old? He is a Vietnam veteran. He was in Nam and he's from South Carolina. He has been wandering for the last few years a lot, just wandering.

[James Petregallo]

Where's he going?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Trying to figure it out. He was one of those guys that came home from Vietnam and had no idea what the hell to do with himself and no idea how to settle or what to do. It was a lot harder. It feels like guys that left for Vietnam and then came home. Society seemed a lot different when they got home than when they left. And they didn't really know where they were. Whereas, like World War II society was kind of. It wasn't from when they left and when they came home, it was kind of the same thing. You know what I mean?

[James Petregallo]

Except people are mad at them now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, not in World War II.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah. They came home, everybody was thrilled. And on top of that, it was kind of the same, you know what I mean?

[James Petregallo]

Vietnam, you come home and people hate you now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. World War II, the country was on pause, you know what I mean? Like, even, like Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio were in World War II, so.

[James Petregallo]

And nobody had anything. We were sending everything to the war effort.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. There's rationing and all that, whereas Vietnam society kept going. And there was also Vietnam. So it was hard for a lot of these guys. So what he did was get into dealing drugs.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He got into dealing drugs. He was like, well, that seems like a good idea. You know, there's Steve Earl song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, walking down the road with a.

[James Petregallo]

Stay away from Copperhead Road. James, we're learned a few things from Charlie.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't, you know, don't you know. So November 20th, here we go. He's got a girlfriend named Debbie Hannah, and they share a house together on Dry Run Road, which is a gravel. A gravel road. It's a country road just outside of Parkersburg. Not in like a town, it's just, you know, on the. On the outskirts of Parkersburg, but up in the holler type of deal. So on this day, November 20, 1979, it's a weekday and Debbie leaves the house around 9am because she works part time at the DMV.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So they're very. Lead very different lives. He sells drugs and does like a lot of they call it. They say he's like a mule, basically. He'll. He goes back and forth between South Carolina and West Virginia and hauls large amounts of weed with him. That's how. That's what he's doing. And his girlfriend works at the DMV part time. So she. About noon, she decided to go home for lunch, as she often did. She came home for lunch and couldn't find Swampy. Where's old Swampy? Well, no, she looked all around. Swampy. Swampy. Can't find him.

[James Petregallo]

No Swampy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No Swampy. So she walks into the bedroom. He's not in the living room. He's not doing anything. I can't find him. And she finds him in the bedroom. Uh. Oh, boy, does she find him.

[James Petregallo]

A lot of him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, different parts of him in different places, as we'll talk about. He is handcuffed. He's on the bed, handcuffed. But he has no head. What? So he's handcuffed. His head is off his body completely. Luckily for her, though, the head is in a very convenient place. It is right next to the bed, on the nightstand, next to a lamp.

[James Petregallo]

They just left it there?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Like, I have a picture of the crime scene after they removed the head. And it's just got, like a blood puddle under it. And it's just on the nightstand, like where you'd have an alarm clock or where, like nowadays you put your phone. Like, instead, he's just. There's his head sitting there. And the fucked up part, his hair is perfectly combed in style.

[James Petregallo]

No.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. And she said he didn't do that in the house at all ever. Unless he was going to, like a job interview or a fucking probation officer meeting or something. He didn't comb his hair. So whoever killed him, handcuffed him, sawed his fucking head off, and then combed his hair neatly.

[James Petregallo]

That is crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's disturbing.

[James Petregallo]

That's a bad person that's willing to hold a body part and do hygiene to it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's staging. That's. You're telling somebody something. They always say in Mindhunter there. You look at the.

[James Petregallo]

What are you saying?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Look at. You don't look. You want to find the artist. You look at the painting and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're painting a picture for you.

[James Petregallo]

That's some brush strokes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They're trying to tell you something here. Then. Speaking of trying to tell everybody something.

[James Petregallo]

Is there a letter?

[Jimmy Wissman]

She looks, you know, kind of. Because, I mean, imagine you walk in and you see this. You're like, oh, my God, there's blood. You'd see that. You'd see your boyfriend handcuffed. Oh, my God. Then you see a head Sitting there. So.

[James Petregallo]

Right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Things are moving quickly, I would imagine in poor Debbie's mind at this point. Then she looks up on the wall and written, written on the wall is, quote, I came, you weren't home. I love you.

[James Petregallo]

Whoa.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. So I.

[James Petregallo]

That's. Yeah. BTK letters.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck is that about? Yeah, that is her name.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, after midnight or whatever this is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Remember he wrote that letter to the old lady that he was in her house and she didn't appear or whatever the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Is this person looking for this lady and she cut this guy's head off instead?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think maybe that's what the, you know, that's what person wants her to think, possibly. Or what they want the cops to think or whatever the fuck is going on here. Or maybe someone really loves her and she wasn't there and they were upset about it. But. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to get the best night's sleep you're possibly going to get with coop. Sleep goods. Coopsleepgoods.com that's right, Coop. That. This is it. I am a terrible sleeper. We both have sleep problems in the show. We have all this stuff and I'm up and it's hard for me to get to sleep. I got to sleep at weird times. Plus I'm a hot sleeper.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unless it's 60 degrees in the room and I am sweating. And we have found the solution, everybody. And it is Coop. Get yourself these incredible, incredible pillows. They're adjustable, first of all. You can take stuff out. You can make them as big or small as you want. And then. Tell them, Jimmy, just tell them. Tell them about it.

[James Petregallo]

It's got a zipper. You can fill it. You can take stuff out. You can make it firmness to your. But my favorite thing is that it's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tell them the cool part.

[James Petregallo]

So cold.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The coolness of it.

[James Petregallo]

Yes, it's wonderful. I can roll over and snuggle it. I've never slept better.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm telling you. Cool is the other side of the pillow. Cool is both sides of this pillow. They are the best. I'm telling you. We're actually getting good sleep, both of us. And we're not even sharing one pillow. They gave us each one and we love them. We really do. You go to their site there, coopsleepgoods.com, you take the sleep quiz, find the perfect pillow for you. You get a free pillow consultation with a sleep expert to optimize your sleep. 100 night free trial. 86% of coop sleepers reported better sleep after switching their pillows to Coop. 100,000 five plus 100,000 plus five star reviews and you can add two more to that. We love it. Visit coopsleepgoods.com Smalltown Murder to get 20% off your first order. That's C O O P sleepgoods.com Smalltown.

[James Petregallo]

Murder now back to the show.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the most delicious food that you're not gonna eat. Smalls. Smalls.com that's right. And you're not gonna eat it because it's not for you. It is for cats. And let me tell you, my cat, Brandy, who I recent addition to the family here, she's about a year old, she will not eat anything but this Smalls. We had given her other stuff and at first she started, I like that, I like this, I like that. As soon as we gave her the first batch of Smalls that we got, they sent to us.

[James Petregallo]

It's all Smalls or nothing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She will not. She'll just meow and meow and harass us and we have to give her the Smalls because she loves it and it's so good. That's how she's so. She seems so happy getting it. I can't give her anything else. It's so good because she seems thrilled here. I'm telling you, it's so good. We love you love your cats. You want them to be good and that's why you've got to try Smalls here. I'm telling you. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients that you'll find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's why Katz.com names Smalls their brand best overall cat food. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends and a few years later served millions of meals to lots of cats Everywhere across the US and after switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported health improvements. That's a pretty big deal. That's huge. The team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat won't eat their food for a limited time only because you are a small town murder listener. You can get an additional 35% off Smalls plus an additional 50% off your first order by using our code STM that's an additional 50% off when you head to Smalls.com and use the promo code STM. Again, that's promo code STM for an additional 50% off your first Order, plus free [e-mail] now back to the show. Either way, Night Stalker also wrote shit on walls, too.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

To be gross. And of course, Manson. But that was a whole other thing. So she freaks the shit out, obviously. I mean, imagine walking into your house and finding your significant other in this condition. Imagine finding anybody. Never mind. You could find a stranger like this.

[James Petregallo]

No, thanks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You'd never get over it, probably. So she runs out of the house. Just runs. There's nobody around. There's no neighbors. They live in the middle of nowhere. They moved out here because he's got a little weed operation and there's no neighbors to be nosy watching.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So she has to run three miles. She runs.

[James Petregallo]

Doesn't have a car.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She just ran. I don't know if she didn't have a car or what, but she ran out of the house screaming. And I think once she got a half mile away, she probably said, well, fuck it, I'm already going this direction.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So she ran all the way to a bar three miles from the house.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

First of all, you're like, line them up and this is what happened.

[James Petregallo]

And then we'll talk.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm doing, like, four shots before I'm even starting. And I'll talk in a minute, like an old cowboy. I'm just going to pick it up and, like, pull the cork out with.

[James Petregallo]

My teeth and then just swing right from the bottle.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So. And she's screaming the whole time. And she bursts into this bar, screaming, they've killed him. They've cut his head off. That's what these. Some sleepy little tavern. And they turn around to some lady going, ah, they've killed him. They cut his head off. So. Wow, that's a lot. So the police arrived and they discover that the house has been ransacked. By the way, she barely even noticed that. But under the mattress that old Swampy was on, they find $30,000 in cash.

[James Petregallo]

That he was laying on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He was. It was under his mattress. Which, literally. That's a cliche of hiding it under your mattress. Like, that's the first place you would look for money, I would assume would be under the mattress.

[James Petregallo]

At least under it, if not in it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And also they find cocaine on the premises, too. Like a decent amount. And some weed, too, and shit like that. So he's definitely in some drug business that they're figuring out. Nobody has that much cash and a bunch of coke at the same time unless they're doing something. Especially in 1979, Coke was just starting to get really, like, available and a little bit less expensive and prohibitive. Like regular people were just starting to do coke at this time, but not really in West Virginia, I wouldn't think that's probably like, probably Miami, New York, L.A. yeah, Dallas or something. There's probably people doing coke a lot.

[James Petregallo]

That were a car and a. And a rock in their pocket.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, well, this was like regular people started doing it because it was starting to become affordable.

[James Petregallo]

So this was like, you know, Corollas were doing it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Huh? Professionals were doing. Yeah, just somebody who works at a dentist's office was doing it some blow on the weekends and shit. So things started to change. So they ended up the Parkersburg pd, the, the Wood County Sheriff's Office, and the West Virginia State Police are all coming because this is crazy. They probably just all want to see the head. That's wild.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This, this is a scene, you know, you would tell people about for years. What's the craziest thing you ever saw? Well, let me tell you something. It's this. So they have all of these agencies, so they have their best people, crime scene people going over the crime scene. They find zero fingerprints, not a one. Zero signs of forced entry, zero clues. They scour it. They find nothing. No hair, no physical evidence of any sort. It's like a ghost fucking walked through the wall, decapitated this man, combed his hair and then left and wrote some shit on the wall.

[James Petregallo]

It was 30 grand and walked out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, yeah, ghosts don't need money, so maybe that's the explanation. So then they also find that his green pickup truck was missing as well from the house. So that they did steal. But they find it in Williamstown, just over the Ohio river, with not a.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking fingerprint on it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not a fingerprint on it. And also parked neatly in a parking lot. Not like, you know, a door open at the back of a parking lot. Just parked like, you know, in a Walmart parking lot next to other people. Like it blends right in. That's a few days later. So they have no evidence and no clue of what happened here. There's no ring doorbell footage or any shit like that. There's no, you know, he was posting on Instagram an hour earlier. We don't know what happened. He's just ghost batting, tired of this shit. Yeah, that's It. So the case goes cold as fuck.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Tonight.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. By the end of the day, they had nothing. When they found the truck, they were like, ooh, maybe there's stuff in there. Oh God, nothing. So really, really difficult. Then around 1983, so four years later, there's a woman named Lawana Joyce Norton. She goes by Pixie. Okay, that's what everyone calls her, Pixie. Now, Pixie, as we'll talk about. She's born May 27, 1947. So, you know, she's in her 30s here too, mid-30s. She's from Merced, California, but somehow ends up in Ohio and West Virginia. In that area, she's got a friend named Debbie Dills. D I L L S Debbie Dills, which is not a great name. Don't name your kid Debbie if your last name's Dills.

[James Petregallo]

Any kind of alliteration at all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, Dill's is like pickle. So there's dick jokes. And then she's Double D. So that's gonna get her picked on. Like, you can't do that to a girl. It's a poor young lady. She must have had a hard time in high school, man. Just hillbillies fucking with her.

[James Petregallo]

We had a friend named Lauren and we just called her Double D, but it was because she had huge boobs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what I mean. She could be flat chested and they're all calling her Double D, which at that point is an insult. So. Or Double D. Maybe she doesn't want that attention when she's 15 or something, you know what I mean? Or she's just creeped out by it. Who knows? Yeah. So she is involved in this as well. These two women, now they. I'm sure they were arrested for something else or something, but they end up talking to Columbus, Ohio detectives and they are interviewed during a federal drug investigation. Okay, now they're trying to, I'm sure, get out of whatever charges they have on them or otherwise they wouldn't be talking at all. They just go, I don't know what you're talking about. Fuck off. So they end up saying, we know stuff about a murder. Oh, we know stuff about a murder. We know stuff about Swampy Marsh's murder.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And they go, well, how do you know that? And they said, well, we know it very well because the guy who killed him came to the house and he basically said that they drove him to the house, this man. They drove him to Swampy's house, told them to wait in the car. He was in there for a While then came out covered in blood.

[James Petregallo]

What?

[Jimmy Wissman]

So I mean, that's a pretty good clue, I would say. Yeah, yeah, they said that. They said, well, who is this guy? And they said, well, it's kind of a known drug associate of ours and a romantic partner of Pixie, of course, Pixie's boyfriend at the time. It's a guy named William Dean Wickline Jr. W I c K L I N E. And of course it's a Junior.

[James Petregallo]

I watched him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah. Covered in blood junior.

[James Petregallo]

He did it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He did it. We know from crime and sports, if you've listened at all, there's just an inordinate amount He's a bad guy, Jr. Action that happens here. Now. William Dean Wickline Jr. He's born March 15, 1952. Let's find out a little bit about him. He's been accused of murder here. So that's a big deal now. Cause you never know if that's true though, because it is. People in a federal drug investigation, they're probably looking at 25 years for having some coke on him or something. So they're willing to talk. And a lot of those people are willing to make shit up too. So let's investigate this and see if it tracks. What do you say, everybody? Let's do this. Okay. William Dean Wickline Jr. Born in Reynoldsburg, Ohio. He grew up in a blue collar stable financially, but not wealthy by any means type of deal. His dad's a truck driver and a mechanic. And you know, his mom works as like a roadside diner waitress. So they're not making a ton of money. But blue collar folks. Yeah, they're not getting kicked out of their house or anything like that. You know what I mean? They're hard working blue collar folks here, but this is. We're Talking in the 50s, a truck driver, mechanic. You come home and you drink hard and you take a lot out on your family back then apparently because that's what this guy was doing here. Yeah, mom didn't make much money as a diner waitress either, so they weren't wealthy, which doesn't help. But William is the youngest of three brothers. Apparently here considered a weird kid in school. Really little weird. Everyone said he's very direct and didn't smile a lot. Just kind of.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But would like stare at you like in a weird way that kind of creeped the kids out a little bit. He's a weird, real weird guy.

[James Petregallo]

Looks but doesn't talk. Don't like that guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's weird. That's what I Mean stares, but doesn't smile or talk. Is a strange guy.

[James Petregallo]

Uncomfortable.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No. And he's a big guy to grow up to be over six' three, you know, six' three, £200 plus. He's a big dude too. So in school, if someone's a big kid too, and they're like that, that's even creepier. He does some odd shit while in school, including he is caught behind the school. He had killed and was in the act of dissecting a squirrel. A squirrel? Yeah, in the. Not in science class. Just in the back of the school.

[James Petregallo]

Free range.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just. Yeah. Pocket knife. Yeah. So the teacher brought him inside and said, what are you doing, dude? Like, what are you trying to do? And he said that he, quote, just wanted to see what was going on in there.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy. I've heard about that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just looking to. Yeah, it's like I've done that when I'm on mushrooms, you know, I want to. I just want to twist my head off and take a look inside and see what's happening. But you know, outside of that, it's. I don't need to know what's going on in there. So he said he wanted to see what was going on in there. He's very interested in anatomy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Which means you could be a doctor or a psychopath, one of the two at this point. So in junior high he got in a shitload of fights. A lot of fights. He was just always fighting. He once beat, pummeled a smaller kid and younger kid with a sneaker. Just beat him unmercifully with a sneaker like a grandmother because he didn't like the way the kid looked at him.

[James Petregallo]

Oh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So he pummeled him with a PF Flyer apparently, because that's all the kids were back then. Back then. Put the kid in the hospital.

[James Petregallo]

What did he do with a shoe?

[Jimmy Wissman]

With a shoe? Just pummeled him.

[James Petregallo]

What kind of fucking shoe is this? A steel toe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, I guess if you hit him with the heel enough times in the eyes and face, he could break his nose.

[James Petregallo]

Caterpillar.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus, that's wild. So he got a three day suspension for that, by the way, which doesn't seem like a lot. And there's a reason at home, a lot of violence. Dad's a heavy drinker and there's a lot of police activity going on at the house. A retired officer from that area at the time, in the 50s and 60s, said that he was called out to that house, quote, more times than he could count, really. Just always being called out to the house because dad was having a shit fit in one regard or another. No one ever got arrested, though, back then. They wouldn't arrest you to go out to the hills in West Virginia where a man and a woman are fighting. And they just go, all right, sleep it off. That was what they do.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, sober up and try again tomorrow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You put ice on that and you sleep it off and, you know, see if y' all can't get along tomorrow. And that's what they used to do back then. It was just wild. So one of his cousins said that his dad would beat William unmercifully and the family dog, too. Those were the two that he really liked to beat was William and the family dog. Real into that. Everyone said the dog would cower when he came in, and so would William. He'd cower, too, which is worse than a child's cowering. I don't. I didn't hear an awe out of you from that. You should probably awe that too.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, but I don't know. It's a little.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, the dog will be dead in eight years, and he's gonna go on to murder people. So that's why it's much more important. I get that. It's cute to say that. Oh, the dog's so much. In reality, though.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You could put the dog. You could take a dog and pay someone to. You could pay someone to murder it right now. Say it bit a kid and they'll kill all your dogs. That's terrible. I love my dogs.

[James Petregallo]

But you could tell the kid why he's getting it. Because I'm a monster. That's why. The dog still will never understand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The dog won't affect society. This guy will, is what I'm saying. I'm going on. I'm going on a global. I don't want him beating anybody. But the kid is at least as bad as beating the dog. To pretend it's not a little bit.

[James Petregallo]

Silly seeing a dog cower, Seeing a kid cower. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe it's just a.

[Jimmy Wissman]

From beatings.

[James Petregallo]

It's just an event. But we don't know that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Kids don't cower from not beatings. Do your kids ever cower from you? There's a reason why they don't. Because you don't beat them. Start beating them. They will.

[James Petregallo]

They stand up to me, and I fucking hate it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes, because you've instilled confidence in them, you dummy. That's what happens.

[James Petregallo]

I go get out of my seat. My daughter goes there's no assigned seats. I go, it's my seat. No, it's not your seat. I own this. That's my seat. And she wants to fight about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's hilarious.

[James Petregallo]

I should have beat her more.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is mine. I should have knocked you around when I had the chance, dammit. So a friend said that if you weren't useful to William, he wanted nothing to do with you.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that's what they taught him through that was, you know, people are transactional. The friend said you were furniture to him if you didn't mean anything, if you couldn't help him for a while. He did pretty well in school. He didn't like team sports, but he liked wrestling. So he wrestled on the high school team a little bit, which is very individualized. And from what everybody said, he had the potential to go to college for wrestling. They said he had potential to be a very good wrestler, but he didn't follow through on it. Instead, he started failing classes, committing stupid petty crimes that we're talking about here. Started using whatever drugs he get his hands on at about 16, which is 1968 also. So, I mean, you know, think about the time you're in here. He never lived up to his athletic promise and his grades fell off too. So college kind of became a background that ain't gonna happen thing.

[James Petregallo]

Student comes first and student athlete. So it doesn't matter if you're good at whatever you're doing. If you can't make the grade, you can't make the team.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I mean, well, back then you could. They didn't care as long as you really. Oh, shit. Back then they didn't start all those laws that you can't participate unless you have grades until like the 80s and 90s when you were kids. Yeah, they were doing that. Yeah, we got fucked. You could have been dumb as shit and get straight A's before that. It was fantastic.

[James Petregallo]

Feels like we got fucked a lot of different ways.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. When we were teenagers, it was the. We were the scourge of the ear and everyone. It was like a national thing to put teenagers in prison and fuck those kids.

[James Petregallo]

No tolerance laws made by a bunch of assholes that got to do a bunch of drugs. And they told us no, what the fuck?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what I mean, exactly. The hippies came back to bite us, man.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So now school officials remembered him having affectionate parents, but they didn't go home with him at the end of the day. They said he wasn't a flagrant troublemaker, but he hung out with kids that were really, you know, the troublemaker kids here. There was some suspicion that he was involved in drugs in high school, but he was never charged. But he does have some other problems in high school. We'll talk about one of the which, and this isn't really a police matter, but he was caught egging his high school principal's car, which is a total kid prank. I mean, fuck the man. What more of a kid prank is that? We'll egg the old man's car. Fuck the man.

[James Petregallo]

That guy knew when he took that job he was gonna have to wash his car a lot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He cut down all the trees in his front yard. Because otherwise they'd just be toilet paper holders.

[James Petregallo]

Those are toilet paper holders, and your car's an egg carton.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's it. You knew it. Get a garage and cut the trees down, Principal. Or live in a different town. But he and an accomplice ended up cleaning up the next car. The car the next day, because he got caught. So they cleaned up the car and they even waxed it, even though they didn't have to.

[James Petregallo]

You have to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. It wasn't like part of it. He said, just clean it. But they waxed it and washed it. So a friend who knew him said that he didn't become a criminal in high school. Really? He didn't have that one. Said a woman that he knew, a young lady at the time said he was more like a flower child. He had maybe two pairs of jeans and some T shirts and hair down to the middle of his back. He was anything but a charmer. He's just a typical 1968 hippie kid. Yeah, normal. Then he gets into some shit, though. Starting at about 69, 70, things start going wrong for him. His juvenile crime records include shoplifting, theft, assault. He was arrested for pulling a knife during a fight at a skating rink. Which is some weird, you know, some old timey shit too. Sounds like it's out of Greece or something. The charges were eventually dropped there. At one point he sent to juvenile hall briefly, where he thrived in the structure, but also thrived in, like, the criminality of how to be a criminal in an institution type of thing. He loved that shit.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, yeah. He's one of those people. It's an environment he can control and move people around. It's weird. A probation officer said, quote, wickline displays dominant behavior over other youths, lacks remorse and appears to enjoy inflicting fear. Attempts to steer him onto a different path. Vocational training, religious instruction, military recruitment were short Lived. So he wanted no part of anything structured or organized that could, you know, things that are considered in society. The straight road. He didn't want any part of that shit. They said he had traits of antisocial personality disorder, which is not great.

[James Petregallo]

It's not good.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What they said worse about it was he's very calculating and careful and would never lash out in front of authorities or anything like that. He's the type that would smile and say, everything's okay here. And then when the guard leaves.

[James Petregallo]

Psychopath.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. Then when the guard leaves, he'll turn around and beat the shit out of somebody because he wanted to kill them. He's a dangerous man. One of the bad kids schools he was at for a minute here. A teacher there said, oof. Wickline is the kind of kid that would stab you with a pencil just to see you bleed. Then he'd ask for another pencil. That's how he's described. That's not good, man.

[James Petregallo]

No.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And this is. He's not even an adult yet.

[James Petregallo]

No.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is disturbing.

[James Petregallo]

Bad kid.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's refining it and there's a few other things. In January of 1969, so he's, you know, 17. He got caught out past curfew and drinking. Minor in possession of alcohol. They just released him to his parents. In May of 1969, he's busted for drinking again and he's released to his parents. Then on September 22, 1969, he's arrested for breaking and entering. That's different. Him and a co defendant allegedly broke into some cottages at Burr Oak. And they said enforcement withheld on that one. So that's the. So we think maybe they gave him some kind of like, you know, you don't get in trouble for a year. Some kind of deferred adjudication or whatever the fuck. So he gets out of school and he has a few odd jobs here and there. Wickline, he does some construction. He does some mechanic work here and there. He works a bit as a bouncer. Just kind of a bunch of stuff, but nothing for long. He does not like authority. He doesn't like to be told what to do. And the second you tell him what to do, he quits and goes somewhere else. That's kind of how he works here. He does find an activity, though, and a vocation to get into that doesn't require any of that stuff. No boss or an education. And that's selling drugs. It's great.

[James Petregallo]

Be your own boss.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Be your own boss. He's really good at it too. Yeah. This is a work from home.

[James Petregallo]

This is like Found, the product that sells itself.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. An old timey like midday commercial. Are you bored? You need some extra income?

[James Petregallo]

You just gotta have it. It'll move.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No shit. Now, they said at this point, by the way, a psychological testing later on said there's no evidence of a thought disorder or a psychotic reaction. They said psychological testing reveals that he's functioning in the superior range of general intelligence and has an IQ of 124, which is pretty fucking good.

[James Petregallo]

More dangerous.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's what I mean. He thinks shit through. He's smart enough to come up with a plan that is disturbing. This is what movies are made of. Movie bad guys are smart. That's the. Luckily in real life, most really bad people are stupid. Most?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's selfish. Yeah. The number one indicator of violent behavior is stupidity. That's statistically. That's the most violent people are stupid. But when you get the ones that aren't, that is dangerous.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Because they have the mental capacity and the intellectual ability to work this shit out and not go down that road, but they do anyway. And then they put all their brain power into it.

[James Petregallo]

And then the other ones figure out how to fucking do it and get away with it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the worst. Yeah, that's scary. So, yeah, 1971, he's 19. He gets busted for gun possession, then burglary, then grand theft, then drug charges. This is how his 70s are gonna go here, the 1970s for him. He's gonna go on to serve time in prisons in six different states. So he's gonna get around doing shit all around this area here.

[James Petregallo]

Everywhere he goes. He's bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes, he's arrested between 1971 and about 1982, he's arrested at least nine times that we know of. He served time in prison prisons in Columbus, Mansfield, Chillicothe, Orient and London. And in Ohio and then other places too. He would enter a guilty plea pretty much every time. Cuz he knew he would get less time if he entered a guilty plea. So he'd enter a guilty plea and do his time and that was that. And he'd get out and do it again. Didn't care. One investigator remembered that Wickline didn't seem bothered by the prospect of going to prison. When they were talking to him, he's like, I don't care. I'll just go to prison again. Great, fine. Send me to prison. Good. They said it gave him time to concentrate on his pastimes, such as lifting weights. Because when you're an intelligent psychopath and you're also 6 foot 3. You want to be jacked too. On top of it.

[James Petregallo]

Build a tool. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. Think about how scary that is. It's a killing machine is what he's making himself. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns Early. Acorns early is a smart money app and debit card for kids that helps them learn the value of money. This is very important. It's acornserly.com or get the app here.

[James Petregallo]

Acorns early app.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, really important to teach your kids about money because you normally you teach your kids, you know, stay away from strangers and eat your vegetables and stuff like that, but you don't teach them how to make their money, do anything, or how not to just blow it on candy. You don't teach them that. And it's hard not to. You know, you gotta do that sort. Nobody ever taught me about money.

[James Petregallo]

No, no. We had to have it for them to teach me about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's it. Or you might do a chore and you get a couple of bucks and then you go blow it and you don't know what you're doing. And that's. You gotta teach your kids a better way and we can do it now. Acorns Early's chores tracker helps kids learn the value of a dollar. You set up chores in the app, set a payment amount, and then tick the chore off when it's done. And Acorns early lets parents pay allowances automatically so you don't have to rummage around your pocket for cash here. Oh God, I gotta give this kid 5 bucks I promised him. Now kids can spend what they earn with their very own debit card and they'll enjoy the sense of independence. And it feels like an adult thing. And there's 35 plus customizable card designs too, so it's really cool. They have simple parental controls that deliver extra peace of mind. You get real time notifications when your kids spend. You can set spending limits and instantly block lost or stolen cards. Help your kids turn saving into a habit. It's very good. Here. Kids can use their app to set savings goals. They can even choose their own target dates and turn on the optional autosave feature to help them get there. So grow your kids money with bite sized financial lessons. The Acorns early app has tons of fun interactive courses that help kids learn all things about money. Head to acornserly.com or download the Acorns early apple to help your kids grow their Money skills today Acorns early card is issued by Community Federal Savings bank member FDIC pursuant to license by MasterCard International. T&C's apply monthly subscription fee starting from $5 per month unless canceled Every day.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Visit notoprotect.gov so together we can stop online child exploitation. That's k n o w the number.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[James Petregallo]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let me check this pocket.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm a mom.

[James Petregallo]

Wait, wait one sec. Got cupcakes in the car.

[Jimmy Wissman]

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[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

If you pay off early or cancel see t mobile.com at one time in jail he takes some college level courses. While in prison he said that he wanted to become a psychologist anyway. Fucking analyze yourself first and then worry about help people. I don't know. See a lot of people that are fucked up want to become psychologists so they can understand themselves. Though that's very common in murderers. Murderers are real. Interested in psychology even. Remember the Iceman? He sat there with Park Dietz because he said tell me what's going on with me.

[James Petregallo]

What am I doing?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, why am I like this? They want to know.

[James Petregallo]

Then he reads it all to him and he sits back in his chair. He Goes, huh? Is that right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

And that's something.

[James Petregallo]

And you got me. Huh. Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. Damn. She kind of nailed that.

[James Petregallo]

He didn't even ask is there anything that can be done? He just like goes, oh yeah, no.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know, he just, man, he just wanted to know what did this. Was this all my fault or was this nature or nurture? I think he was after.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you for that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And Park Dietz told him it's actually both with you, which is rare. You have both. You're dangerous. The most dangerous. And I think that's what we got here with this guy too. Similar thing. He's smart, he's 6 foot 3 and jacked by the time he gets out of jail. Thick necked and, you know, ready to do bad things. Here by this time he's doing his specialty becomes drugstore burglaries. Because that's two birds right there.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You get drugs and money and you roll out and you roll out. If you've ever seen Drugstore Cowboy with Matt Dillon and Heather Graham and Kelly lynch and it's a real great movie, but that's what it's about. It's about people in the 70s in Portland that drug addicts that would go around and they'd have Heather Graham fake a seizure on the floor and everybody go to her and then they'd jump behind the counter and steal whatever Dilaudid they could fucking take or whatever and, and bounce and they did that all over the place. That was a big deal back then. So he'd do that. He also got into pimping.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know, was running a narcotics house at one point. So that's nice. Just a drug house he's running. Very nice. He's arrested for possession of a dangerous weapon in Newark, New Jersey in 1972, which is interesting. He stated that he was in possession of a 22 Derringer and that he was able to buy his way out of difficulty. So that's what he tells later on investigators he said, yeah, Yeah, I had a 22, but I slipped the cops some cash and then I paid off the judge or whatever the fuck he said. Later on he admitted that he'd come to New York to buy heroin. That's why he was there, obviously. Then he has a breaking and entering in Columbus, Ohio. He and a co defendant are indicted on eight counts of breaking and entering and all occurring at apartment complexes. So they were breaking into all different apartment complexes. Then again, breaking and entering at a construction company where police were waiting for him when he came out. They came out with shit. And the cops are just outside waiting for him. Hi, guys. Turn around, drop your shit. There you go. Okay, so he is sent to prison at this point and given one to seven years consecutive with a half year to five year sentence for the other breaking and entering. But that's in. Okay, that's in that he ends up doing the plea in March of 1973. March 2, 1973. Then in April, 4-12-73, a month later, they give him what is called shock probation, which means, I guess everyone's shocked that you gave that guy probation. Can't believe it, right? Hey, you're shocked, huh? Didn't expect that, did you?

[James Petregallo]

All right, well, like panic.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus, that's fucking wild. Then he gets right back to it. October of 73, violating drug laws in Columbus. A search of his residence and of him and another man named Peter Johnson. And the auto of a man named Peter Johnson, which is two words for dick, by the way. Yeah, your Peter Johnson. That's not good. Revealed a large amount of narcotics, all stolen from drugstores. Okay, so you know what he's doing there. That's not great. He also. So he's going to get two to 15 years they're going to sentence him to there.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. I hate these like one and two and the minimum. No good. We need to give a solid little window.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, well, he ends up. By the way, they add another charge to that, too. It was breaking and entering in Columbus, Ohio, where he broke into the Allen Pharmacy and was arrested at the scene. And that's where they found all those drugs. And so he goes to jail. He's out by 76, though. So he goes in at 74. He got the two out of the 15 and he's arrested again for giving false information. And he gets a $50 fine for that. He just has no real desire to follow any sort of society norms. He has no goals.

[James Petregallo]

He has no goals whatsoever?

[Jimmy Wissman]

No. And he's a scary guy in prison, too. They said that he's known as a pro, as a burglar. He would never carry a gun during a break in. So then he couldn't be charged with armed robbery, which is a lot more serious than breaking and entering, which is smart. Again, he knew the law. So during a decade in prison, basically he's in and out of prison all the time. He became. This is from a newspaper article. He became more and more deeply involved with what one friend of his called the prison mainstream.

[James Petregallo]

What is that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

They said those are groups of inmates who use fear and violence to Control the illicit activities within the prison population. Basically the people who run shit in jail.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The people who sell the drugs. The people who, you know, fucking sell cigarettes and do all that kind of shit. The one friend said, once you get in the mainstream, you don't get out. Is that like the precursor to the Aryan Brotherhood in there or some shit like. That's what it sounds like.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking prison gang.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And he.

[James Petregallo]

I had a friend that robbed banks that didn't take guns. And that's why. And then he. I knew him after all that, and I only knew him because he didn't take a gun. If he'd taken a gun, he'd gone longer. And I met the guy, violated probation. He's in prison for life now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, there you go. But still, he didn't have to. That's the point.

[James Petregallo]

Smart. At the beginning, he got real and.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Desperate banks, their policy is they don't need to be threatened into giving you money. You just say it and they do it. And then you get arrested. That's right.

[James Petregallo]

Right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They just fall insured, not hurting anybody. So while in prison, he's lifting weights. He's studying psychology and he's also studying something else. He's working in the prison slaughterhouse as well.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, butcher.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes, the prison. Certain prisons had slaughterhouses. So he is doing butchering.

[James Petregallo]

We are delivering live animals to prisons.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Well, they would have their own farms where they would raise them and butcher them out and then feed the people on them and sometimes sell them, too.

[James Petregallo]

Do I like that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't think I do, no. Because it's prison labor used for outside industries.

[James Petregallo]

You've got killers doing killing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you're teaching them how to slaughter things.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's interesting.

[James Petregallo]

I don't like that at all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

His supervisor at the prison slaughterhouse said that his butchering work was exceptional. He was amazing at it. But he also said, quote, he's just a scary guy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now he's huge and gigantic and knows how to take how to part you out, like.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So they said that his intelligence set him apart from the run of the mill criminal. A woman friend of his said what makes him so dangerous is that he's so smart. He had everything in the world going for him. Well, everything if you want to be a drug dealer and a criminal in the real world.

[James Petregallo]

He got beaten with the family dog. He had nothing going on ever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You and the dog, cut that shit out. God damn it. So another close friend said that she saw him change every time he got out of Prison. She said each time he got more serious, meaning after he was released, he'd come out and be more and more angry and serious and mean. You know, as prison is change as a person not.

[James Petregallo]

They saw him every time he cut out. And yeah, I'm like, why does it matter if they've seen him naked?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's the goddamn difference? So in the early 70s, too, he was getting involved in the heroin trade by the mid-70s. And a lot of that was what he was stealing from drugstores and all that kind of shit. It's believed during this time that he killed a rival drug dealer because a couple of informants came out and said that he told them about this rival drug dealer who did disappear around that time. And he said he killed him and disappeared him. And the body was never found of this person. So it's a drug dealer, too, though. So they might have just gone to Cancun. We have no fucking idea. They might have just taken off because they were on the.

[James Petregallo]

To the south of France.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Totally. Might have changed his name and moved to fucking Ottawa. We have no idea.

[James Petregallo]

His name is Jacques now. Having a great time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's doing wonderfully. Yeah. Salute. So one prosecuting lawyer said it was practically impossible to offer any potential witnesses deals that were attractive enough to convince them to testify against Wickline. People were so scared of him, no one would testify against him because they heard, he'll chop you up and disappear you and shit. So they're terrified. The prosecutor said, quote, they were terrified of him. Unquote. There you go. So he was really, for lack of a better term, lack of a less gross term, carving a little niche for himself here.

[James Petregallo]

Indeed. He's figuring it out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So he didn't really care about. He didn't do, like, street level drug dealing. He's more into the enforcement, intimidation, murder, end of the whole thing. He likes that. He likes taking people out and taking over their shit. And you can just rob people. It's quicker, kill them.

[James Petregallo]

Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So, yeah, he would. At first, he started enforcing debts, and he would be transporting shit for people and act as muscle if somebody needed a couple of guys standing behind him while they go talk to somebody. He looks pretty scary, but they said that he wasn't a brawler. He wasn't an emotional guy. You couldn't get a rise out of him. He'd just murder you later if he was upset with you. Like a gangster. I mean, like a mobster. It's pretty wild. So he starts getting a little good underworld reputation as a Guy you don't fuck with. Essentially a badass kind of a guy. Someone who liked violence even. So people were extra scared of him. It's not like, oh, he'll. If he has to, he'll do some shit. Don't give him an excuse because he wants to. So they said that. They said that he would beat people and leave them barely alive. He would like just snap bones on people on purpose of where he wanted to snap them and shit like that. They said that he had a quote, detached professionalism that would unsettle even the worst criminals. It was so. To be that detached while doing shit like that is just creepy. It's just weird. One guy here described him as more pitbull than man. That's an associate. An associate named Slim said that, by the way.

[James Petregallo]

More pitbull.

[Jimmy Wissman]

More pitbull than man. They said he never heard him raise his voice once.

[James Petregallo]

Calculated, cool and calm.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what he's like.

[James Petregallo]

He's detached while breaking hands and arms.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's how he is. He's one of those guys like Paulie from Goodfellas or something terrifying.

[James Petregallo]

That's who watch out, Superstar should have as their bodyguard.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But exactly. Yeah, but not if they're ambitious and smart.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You need a dumb guy that has those qualities. But a smart guy will kill you and take that shit over. You don't want that guy under you. That's terrifying. So they said that he was calculated. One guy said he was worse than the regular criminal because he was calculated. He didn't want to scare you. He wanted to make sure that you never got back up. That's what they said. So they could not. Even though he's kind of in the orbit of a lot of people who disappear and are beaten half to death. No one will testify against him. No one will give a tip even, even an anonymous tip on this fucking guy. No one wants to testify. He's really. He has a love of knives, which if you're into butchering, you like, ask a chef about a knife. They'll find a chef and just go, tell me about your knife. A half hour later when you're still hearing about how it cuts onions just perfectly at the butt, you're going to be fucking annoyed, you know what I mean? So he loves knives. He collected knives. He cleaned them obsessively. Like if you're going to have good.

[James Petregallo]

Knives, it's a good, good quality. Yeah, you got to clean them, man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Girlfriend said he would stand in front of a full length mirror and practice his slicing maneuvers. Like knife fighting. Like swinging his knife around. Yeah, like De Niro in fucking taxi cab, you know, Taxi driver, but with a fucking knife instead of a gun. And he would talk about using them and how, I'm going to cut people up with these. On the street, he earned the nickname the mechanic, people said, because he could take you apart like a car.

[James Petregallo]

Tune you up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tune you up a little bit and fix problems as well. So he's the mechanic. Real weird. He told an inmate when they were talking, because he was telling a fellow inmate that, yeah, if you kill somebody, you got to dismember them and get rid of them. What are you, stupid? You're gonna leave them there? You get caught, that's dumb. No body, no crime, motherfucker. As we all know, as we know isn't true. What people think is true. He told a fellow inmate, it's all plumbing, tubes and wires. If you know where to cut, it all shuts down. Oh, so that's how he thinks of a human being, as plumbing with tubes and wires. Whoa. That's. Think about how detached. Think about what that says about a person, how detached that is from everything.

[James Petregallo]

Tubes and wires. That's all that's in there. If you cut him, then they don't work anymore.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. Yeah. Just like anything. A car, if you cut that off and it doesn't work anymore. Weird. So he also is involved in what a lot of friends are saying did ritual animal sacrifices during this time, too, which is a really strange thing for a busy drug dealer guy. One friend said he witnessed Wickline performing a mock sacrifice using another man's chest as a human altar. So he put it up there. You know, like when people eat sushi off a hot chick. It's like that, but except creepy and gross and covered in blood. So another former friend said that sex, drugs, and some real weird shit and some occult stuff were all enmeshed in his lifestyle. They said at time he was involved with a group that engaged in animal sacrifice rituals in which a male member of the group would use his chest as a human altar on which the animal was sacrificed.

[James Petregallo]

I don't like any of this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't like any of this. Anything from sacrifice is all creepy.

[James Petregallo]

When animals get involved and we're just opening shit. And with humans opening it up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No. Then he's considered. By the way, he's got tons of women. Yeah, he's a big guy. He's a handsome guy, too. People say they like him, like back in 70s handsome. He's got some long hair. He's got drugs. Sure. He's got confidence. Like he draws women to him like flies in the 70s, man. It's crazy. So he would even to the fact that he would have relationships with several different women at the same time. And even after the relationships were broken off, he'd still get them to do shit for him. And like, he still had a spell over them, basically. They'd still do whatever he asked and still, you know, weird shit. They bail him out of jail even though they haven't talked to him in a year.

[James Petregallo]

He's a big bad man and I love him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They like him. Yeah, they love him. So on. In July of 1977, he is arrested for breaking into the Rusers pharmacy. He was arrested at the scene on that one. And then he's given a 1/2, 6 months to 5 years in prison for that. Seems like that's what he does. And we should probably give him a little more now. Right?

[James Petregallo]

Right. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It seems like he keeps doing this one thing where he likes to break into drugstores. But then in 1978, a little over a year later, he gets a sentence modification where they let him out.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But he's declared a parole violator at large by March of 1980. He just stops going to his parole officer and just does whatever he wants.

[James Petregallo]

It's violation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Now, Pixie. Remember Pixie girlfriend.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who started this whole thing and opened this William Wickline fucking door? Well, Pixie says that everything started to happen. He got very violent during a temporary breakup in their relationship. This was during about 1979 when he was getting out for that last thing. Apparently he. She said that she was abducted by somebody, which in the drug world, that happens. She was abducted, but Wickline did not believe her and just insisted that she went willingly. And now she's lying to him. So. Yeah. Now he's released from jail in November of 1979. Wickline is. And the Pixie said after that he was never the same.

[James Petregallo]

No.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And 11-20-79 is when Charles Swampy Marsh gets. Oh, Marsh is also kind of another word for swamp. That also.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that he gets out right before the Charles Swampy Marsh murder happens here. And that happened like we said, November 20th. A little bit about Swampy here. He's born in Georgetown County. His parents are Edgar and Nell. And in his obituary, he's described as a wholesale antique dealer. I don't know if the drugs were very old that he was selling, but he wasn't selling antiques.

[James Petregallo]

That's a pawn shop.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, he was selling drugs, but it sounds better to say, quote, he was a wholesale antique dealer and an Air Force federation. That sounds much nicer than another drug dealer beheaded him and then combed his hair. That sounds worse.

[James Petregallo]

Wholesale antiques are pawned, right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think so, yeah, pretty much. Or founded an estate sale or some shit. So then he landed in Parkersburg somewhere along this way because he had gotten. Wandered all the fuck around. A little bit about him. He attended Columbia High School in South Carolina. Now, federal agents say he was involved in the drug business for about 10 years. And during that time, he lived in several counties and in several other states. He would hold odd jobs for different periods of time. And he always listed his occupation as salesman or construction worker. Whenever he would be arrested and forced to list an occupation, he was identified as West Virginia by West Virginia authorities as a construction worker when he was. And said he was a salesman during the. When he got charged with a DUI in 1968. He was also arrested in 1972 for. Looks like, possession of marijuana. In 1972, local agents said that he was a mule and he had the contacts to distribute large amounts of drugs. They said he dealt mostly marijuana and cocaine and that his network extended through most of. Throughout most of the Southeast and that he had moved up the ladder of a. Of a drug organization, essentially.

[James Petregallo]

All right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

One a federal agent said, Charlie was one of these people. We'd have to consider the man an importer to South Carolina.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So a bigger guy, basically. After he moved to West Virginia, he was dealing from Parkersburg down the eastern seaboard all the way to Florida. A veteran DEA agent said, yeah, so they had the house with Debbie. She came home, found him, his hair's combed. Holy shit. So medical examiners determined that Swampy had been. He had his throat cut and his head cut off, obviously. They said that his head had been severed with, at the most, two cuts, but possibly one cut. Wow. Imagine how familiar you have to be with where vertebrae are and where shit is in the throat, where something soft enough, the gristle is to get through it. That's wild.

[James Petregallo]

And a very sharp knife.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Absolutely. They said that the bait. The medical examiner said, based on the cut, it looks like whoever killed him might have been a skilled butcher. They said that's how clean the cut was. It was really clean. So they said also that he may have still been alive when he was decapitated as well. Oh, yeah, they said that. I love the medical examiner trying to. Even the medical examiner is like, oh, listen, it's nothing. Happens like this around here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The medical examiner said this is, quote, not a typical homicide found in West Virginia. He said it was an execution style killing and said, quote, this is a big city type of homicide.

[James Petregallo]

Minneapolis homicide.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a real Columbus, Cincinnati, big Toledo kind of homicide, if you know what I'm talking about. He said a revenge type homicide. Somebody hated this guy pretty bad and involves hatred and revenge, which I don't think you're an FBI profiler, so I don't think you really. You're a medical examiner.

[James Petregallo]

Calm down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, tell us that the guy knew butchery and move on. Yeah. Leave the behaviors to other people, they said. But they thought it was definitely before he died because there was a great deal of blood on the bed. And they said that if he had already been dead, there would have been way less blood because his heart would have stopped pumping. So the way it. And the direction it went and everything like that, they think his heart was pumping. Might have been unconscious because they think he was strangled before his head was cut off. So. Wow, that's interesting. The investigation led police to believe that the murder was a contract killing. And the decapitation was a warning to the others in the drug trade who might be. Might be considering expanding their territory, as Swampy had tried to do so.

[James Petregallo]

Real Colombian necktie.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes, exactly. But he just really likes cutting people's heads off is what we're gonna find out.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So police also developed information from sources early in the investigation that the killer was someone who had been a meat cutter while in prison and had earned the nickname of the Butcher. Oh, Jesus Christ. So the police say right after this murder, about two weeks later in the newspaper, the headline is decapitation weapon sought. A fruitless search for the weapon used in the decapitation murder of a man suspected of trafficking drugs. Took scuba divers from Wood county into the muddy Ohio river on Sunday. Wow. They said that deputies said they had seized several thousand dollars worth of uncut cocaine and about $30,000 in cash at the home where the body is found. And so that's, by the way, Debbie actually gave a shit about him because a crackhead would have said, I'm gonna get the coke and the money and then I'll go tell about this murder. But I'm gonna go hide that shit outside for later first. So she's actually a decent person. They said that they used a sharp knife. So they were searching the river for a knife. 1980. There's another theory in the Swampy murder here, by the way. Okay. There's so much more murder coming. This says this is January 16, 1980. So just a couple months later, the headline in the Columbia Record from South Carolina is Man's death tied to seven state probe. Oh, listen to this. This is. You're going to get left fielded here. A Columbia man linked to a seven state coal field crime investigation. Coal field. I said seven states coal field crime investigation after his decapitated body was found in a West Virginia house was a local drug dealer suspected of organized crime involvement. Police said Lexington county authorities were seeking Charles on a three year old warrant charging him with possession of 220 pounds of marijuana with intent to distribute. So he was a fugitive. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That doesn't feel personal use Holy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, that seems like a lot. Even I don't have that much. That seems like a lot. So they said. An official of the Alabama Securities Commission named Tom Krebs said the killing figured in a seven state investigation of crime in the nation's coal fields, but he wouldn't elaborate on the connection. A West Virginia securities commissioner said that Marsh is suspected of being involved in investment hoaxes, but said that authorities believe that his death was not related to an illicit tax scheme. Yeah, people don't kill over tax schemes. Normally. Carper was reluctant to discuss the probe, but said Marsh had crossed paths with persons thought to be involved with bogus tax shelters and limited partnerships. Again, they don't cut heads off and write shit on the walls in blood. That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Tax shelters? I don't think so.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, he said. You'll get blood all over your white collared shirt at that point. You can't do that. He said investigations are underway in West Virginia. Other West Virginia investigators told local authorities that organized crime and coal worker unions have collaborated in the past. They said they're concentrating their investigation on Marsh's drug network after seizing some of his records, though they cited no specific connections between Marsh and the coal industry. The investigators, who were in the Columbia area just after the death, said they knew of his involvement in drugs and organized crime in West Virginia. They said Marsh and John Bynum Williams were charged in Lexington county after the 10-14-76 bust on Buff street in West Columbia where bricks of Mexican marijuana were seized. Williams fled when he was released on bond and was and was tried in his absence and a sealed sentence was handed down. Marsh was not arrested. Marsh had not been convicted, which means he told on somebody. Marsh had not been convicted of any local drug charges, according to investigators. In fact, his records Show Only a 1968 conviction for driving under the Influence of, yeah, he's informing on somebody, which is why his head is sitting next to him. This has nothing to do with anything else but that probably now they. The next day they come out with decapitation and investigation are linked. So they're saying now that it's definitely linked, they said, which is crazy. The police, though, are saying that their investigation has been based on the assumption that the death is drug related. So they don't know, basically. By the way, they think he was strangled with a length of cord that was cut from the lamp next to him and then placed on the. The head was placed there, which is insane. His feet were also bound there. Now, the Alabama investigator Krebs said that a four year old probe primarily focuses on bogus tax shelters and shit like that. He said fraud extends to the billions of dollars and cited one example of an equipment financing firm that was bilked out of $25 million. In another case, an illicit partnership was established in Massachusetts to buy land that turned out to be federal property. So scams, they said this led to a huge amount of money allegedly flowing to the coal industry, but very little of it actually got there. What does this have to do with a guy selling coke in a fucking the sticks in West Virginia, but he's selling fake land?

[James Petregallo]

That's crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So weird. They said the seven states primarily involved in the probe are Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Indiana, New York, Pennsylvania, Virgin Virginia. But the investigator said states from South Carolina to California also assisted on the probe. They called it a true interstate partnership. Weird. Now, they said Marsh was. Obviously they were looking for Marsh and they found him with no head. But anyway, so 1982, Wickline is arrested again in jail for burglarizing a pharmacy. While he's there, he starts telling some stories.

[James Petregallo]

Boy, what's he got?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, he tells other inmates about torturing and decapitating a man in West Virginia and leaving his head on the nightstand and writing shit on the walls.

[James Petregallo]

Did he say anything about a lamp cord?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Didn't say anything about that. But the details pretty matched up pretty good here. Yeah, it's not good. Then there's a confidential informant also that says that he bragged about killing and disposing of bodies. There's a guy basically facing a 15 year federal drug sentence that tells on him. In exchange for leniency, he offered names, locations, and everything that Wickline confessed to. He said that Wickline once told him, if you cut from the collarbone to the groin, the organs just slide out. No mess, no noise, you know, like a Deer?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They. Yeah, but they said they believed him, but he didn't have any corroborating evidence. So what are they supposed to do with this? Basically. But Pixie does have some. So let's get back to Pixie and her story. Okay. She, by the way, had remained loyal to him well after this murder, even after coming out covered in blood and everything else. She even tried to make bail for him after his last arrest, and he went to. She even went to pick up his impounded car.

[James Petregallo]

Really?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Another woman said that Wickline threatened her on at least two occasions, but that she still loved him, even though he's threatened to kill her multiple times. She still loves him. Yep. She said, quote, nobody ever says anything good about Bill. So she's a fixer. She felt bad. She's so fucking codependent that she thinks she's offended because no one says anything nice about this drug dealing, fucking murderer.

[James Petregallo]

Tired of it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She feels bad. Yeah. Wow. She maintained Wickline could do all sorts of drugs without losing control as well. He could really hold his drugs. But, quote, it was only when he was drinking scotch that he'd go crazy.

[James Petregallo]

It's the only time he's a bad guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Isn't that weird that everybody has that one thing? You know, I can drink this, I can drink that, but if I drink tequila, I'll fucking stab my mother. You know what I mean? Everyone has that thing that they have, and his is he can do heroin, he can do coke, he can do fucking meth, but you give him some scotch.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get out of the way, man. She also said that she has details about another murder that he committed. A gambler named Tori Gaynor. Basically here, I guess this was to retrieve some drug money. This is Torrey James Gaynor, who was born June 2, 1946. He was from Parkersburg, West Virginia. And his occupation was he ran gambling places and small time book making and, you know, he'd have a couple of slot machines and take bets and that kind of crap.

[James Petregallo]

He sells hope.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He sells hope? Yes. So he ran. It's an illicit underground gambling operation, basically, and catered to local clientele, including Wickline.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, Wickline's a gambler.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's a gambler, too. But Feb. 11, 1980, Tory doesn't show up for a scheduled court hearing in federal court concerning his gambling business. Business. So that's not good. He's known to be heavily involved in all sorts of illegal gambling operations in southeastern Ohio and central Ohio. Disappeared sometime in 78 or 79. They're not sure, even though when.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No missing persons report was ever filed, but they believe he was murdered. Informants told police. Several different informants told police that he was killed and dismembered, and his body parts were left in different landfills around Fairfield county, which, when we hear more about Wickline, tracks perfectly with what he does. So police considered Wickline a suspect here. He was, they believe, dismembered and everything else. By the way, his car was found just like Swampy's car, Parked real nice. Parked real nice at the Columbus airport. And do you know how they fucking. How they know how it got there? Because Pixie helped dump it with Wickline. And Wickline said, yeah, killed this guy. Gotta leave his car at the airport now. So that's. She's been present for two murders, essentially, at this point. Now, Marsh, basically the connection. How does this. How did Swampy get connected to Wickline? He apparently. He apparently owed someone some money, they believe. And Wickline wanted the drugs that he thought he had. So he thought, you know, and I. And I guess somehow this Tory Gaynor was involved in this as well. Somehow he wanted a cut of this, too. I don't know if he was involved in the money that. I don't know if. If Wickline was sent to, like, take this guy's shit and give it to the other guy, I'm not sure. But investigators later theorized that Wickline tortured Marsh for hours trying to get information because he wanted the money, and he wanted also to know where his girlfriend was. But Marsh wouldn't give it up. So his girlfriend was at work, and luckily that this all got done before noon, because if she walked in with a Subway sandwich in her fucking hand in the middle of this, it would have been ugly, I think. But, I mean, who you can't trust. Can you just trust Pixie? You.

[James Petregallo]

Who can you trust?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Maybe Pixie's facing all sorts of charges on her own, and you can't trust her. But what about if another woman comes forward and says the same shit? What if in a different. In addition to Debbie Dills and. And Pixie, we also get a woman named Teresa. Joe Kemp in this mix here. Teresa, yeah. While Wickline is in prison, Teresa tells the cops some stories as well. And these. They're separate of each other. Pixie and Teresa, they know each other. They all know each other, but they're not coming together as one package here. Teresa was his girlfriend, but was also a friend of his common law wife at the Time. But Pixie was also his girlfriend. He's a pimp. So he's got.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, there's a bunch of gals in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

His orgasm, as we'll hear later on, what they think he was doing as well. It's interesting. So Teresa says, I have a story to tell you about this Wickline guy that you're going to be very interested in. On August 12, 1982, we'll talk about this is in Blendon Township, Ohio, just outside of Columbus. Okay. This is Chris and Peggy Ann Lurch. L, E, R, C, h. Chris is 28. Peggy Ann is Peggy's 25. They're a married couple. And yeah, now they're also involved in the drug trade here. Chris Lurch had been convicted of drug trafficking in 1977 and is kind of always in the mix of all this shit, basically. Now, on August 25, 1982, a missing persons report was filed by Chris's parents concerning Chris and Peggy. They were last heard from on August 12, 1982. And Teresa Jo Kemp has an explanation for that, basically. Now, when the cops showed up to look for them on August 25, they found their house completely empty. Their car is in the garage, and a half drank glass of iced tea sitting near a lawn chair out front, like on the porch. So someone was just like lounging out.

[James Petregallo]

There and took a break after they.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Moved, they vanished, essentially.

[James Petregallo]

Their car.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, left their car. So first, Teresa Jo Kemp denied having any knowledge of any killings committed by Wickline. But later on, she cracked and told police the Lurches were murdered on August 14th by him. Oh, no one had seen him since the 12th. And there was a good reason for that. That's because they had spent the whole weekend partying together with the Lurches. Peggy and Chris and Wickline and Theresa Kemp. They spent two days drinking, snorting coke and having sex. Things going on, whatever they're doing here. Party time over here.

[James Petregallo]

I've never had one of those parties.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fuck, that sounds wild. I'm too old for it now. Both of us are too old for.

[James Petregallo]

It, but that's fucking crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Our hearts can't take two days of that at this point.

[James Petregallo]

Booze and sex.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

I can only take one of the three.

[Jimmy Wissman]

At 22, that would have been wonderful, but not so much now. So you can only take one of the three. Which one?

[James Petregallo]

You can't combine any of them.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Roll the dice and see whichever one. So they were heavily involved in drug trafficking here. Apparently there was an argument with wickline over a $6,000, drug debt. But they've probably done that much coke over this whole weekend, so what difference does it make?

[James Petregallo]

Six grand doesn't seem like that much in comparison when you're doing a whole weekend of it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No. So it's. Apparently they spent hours and hours taking drugs, drinking heavily. The argument didn't start over money until after the four of them had partied all night at the Lurch's residence. Think about this. This is when arguments break out. You've been up for two fucking days drinking and doing coke, so nobody's brain is working anywhere near at fucking top capacity here. Can't possibly be at one time, I guess. Well, they were. They. The argument doesn't start, though, till after they partied all night at the Lurches residence, like I said. Then the next day, they went to Wickline's apartment to party. Let's move this bitch over to our house. All right.

[James Petregallo]

We need new scenery in this party.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's do it. Yeah, it makes it more fun. At one point during the argument, apparently Chris Lurch was handcuffed to the kitchen table and being beaten in the head. Which. That doesn't sound like an argument at that point.

[James Petregallo]

That's. That's a fight.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's. Well, if one of the person's handcuffed to something and being beaten, that's just a beating, I think at that point. So shortly before the. Before. Well, after all this, all this is going on. Chris apparently taunted Wickline, which doesn't seem wise, by saying, oh, yeah, well, I fucked Teresa Kemp, too. How about that? Okay, now that's. Apparently after all that, everything settles down. I don't know if everybody does a little more coke and cheers up or what, but everything calms down after the argument. I guess he's uncuffed and everything. And Wickline asks Chris to come upstairs. Wickline's upstairs, and he asks, can you come up to this bathroom, man? My fucking. My drain is clogged. I need your help with this.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So apparently Chris runs upstairs to help out, and he leans over and looks into the tub in the drain. He goes, look in the fucking drain. Can you see anything in there? So Chris leans himself over the tub, and when he does, Wick lines, cuts his throat.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Which is very convenient for disposal.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's why he did it. Put it. Put the. Put the neck over the drain.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He basically had somebody dig their own hole, then stand next to it, and you shoot him in the head and they fall into it. That's basically what he Did. So he then apparently turns to Teresa and says, well, we can't leave Peggy now. He's dead, so we can't leave him. She's going to be a witness. So apparently they went downstairs while she was sleeping. Peggy's sleeping at this point. She passed out. He makes Teresa hold down her legs, Peggy's legs, while Wickline strangles her.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay. That's what he does. So she helps. She holds down the legs while this happened, while a giant man strangles a sleeping woman. He needs someone to help him, which is pretty shitty. He apparently, then, according to Teresa, cuts up the bodies in the bathtub, dismembers them, which is exactly mob style. They have, like. I read this book about. We did a bonus episode about that guy. Remember him? They called him the Butcher. And he would basically. What's his name? Tommy. Fuck. Tommy Patera. Tommy Pitera.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He would. He had a whole routine, and he'd show other guys how to do it. This is what you do. He talked out of high voice. He'd say, you bring him in. You strip down naked, you get them in the tub, you cut them up here, here, here, and there. That way you can clean everything off. And he had a whole routine that he did. People who kill people, a lot know to do this. This is not a new thing. So apparently, he decapitated them first and then cut them all up, Places their parts in trash bags. And then him with another guy, who we'll talk about later, calls another guy to help him dispose of these trash bags. And they drive all over the county disposing of them in various dumpsters, which, again, is a smart way to do it.

[James Petregallo]

Common thing to do for people are thinking it through.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And they said, while we're doing that, he told Teresa Kemp to stay here and clean all the blood.

[James Petregallo]

Is that a better idea? Move them around, because that gives more places to be found.

[Jimmy Wissman]

More places to be found, but they'll never be found altogether. If you found a bag of an arm, that doesn't do shit for you. In 1979, in 1982. But if you found the head, that would help you.

[James Petregallo]

If you only find a piece, that means there's a fucking crazy person on the loose.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that would be. Yeah, that's wild. So she said that, by the way, Teresa lived with him, so this was their apartment. So she's like, I guess I'm cleaning now. So that's a lot, man. She said she was horrified by all this. She said that he came downstairs after Killing Chris and said, I took him out. She said, I don't understand what you mean. So he took her upstairs and showed him. Showed her. This is what I mean.

[James Petregallo]

This is what I did here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Then made her hold the legs. She said that Wickline later held up. Oh, God. Held up Peggy's severed head and said, look what I've done. Check it out. Yeah, look at that. And that. Neat. She said that he then cut the bodies into small pieces and put them into garbage bags, Telling her he was going to put them in trash bins throughout the city. She said he loved knives. And they believe that he used a 15 inch long folding knife with a serrated blade to dismember the Lurches.

[James Petregallo]

That's a big folder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a big folding knife. And we'll find out why they know that later on. Yeah, that's. That's a lot, man. All around Franklin county left in dumpsters. Now, there's no body. There's very little physical evidence. But she does have something. She has a storage unit where she keeps some of his shit that he. That Wickline told her to keep. Theresa.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And in that. Because all they have to go on is there's some human blood in the caulk from the tub in their apartment. That's all they have, which isn't good. Some dried human tissue. But she scores them bloody handcuffs. Dried human tissue on a. And blood on a folding serrated 15 inch blade knife. And Peggy's wedding ring.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

For good measure. Now, no, Teresa is not going to get a single thing for this. She's going to get completely off on all of this.

[James Petregallo]

100% immunity.

[Jimmy Wissman]

100% immunity to this shit. Which is. I could probably the only way they could get her to say this shit about him. So they probably had to guarantee he will be going to prison. You can't, you know, whatever. So that is between the time that the Lurches disappeared and the time the police began their investigation. That's when he's incarcerated on another unrelated offense. Wickline is. So while he's in jail, Teresa just marries another guy and has a baby.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, Theresa.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But while she's doing this, she continues to visit him in prison and do things for him. That's what I mean. He's got several women that he's not with anymore visiting him in prison and like putting money on his books and doing all that kind of shit. So at the direction of him, of Wickline, Teresa took care of his personal belongings. She placed some items in storage Placed jewelry in a safe deposit box and led the police to the belongings, which served as all the evidence she needed. He described his relationship with Kemp as one that had gone sour. That's. Wickline was telling someone. Ah, she's just being. She's just upset because the relationship's over. She said he came. She came to visit while I was in prison all the time. Even though she's married with a kid. And eventually he told his friends that I told Teresa that our relationship's over. You know, you're married now and everything, so I had to break up with her. Think about what kind of weird world we're living in. When someone gets married, you go, well, she got married. Well, I'm breaking up with her, then.

[James Petregallo]

That's it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Yeah, I think she broke up with you. He said when he got out of prison, he's gonna be trying to make it on his own. Doesn't need her. I'll find five other fucking women to do shit for me. Now. The police, by the way, have fucked up most of these crime scenes royally.

[James Petregallo]

As they tend to be doing. Goddammit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Apparently, all over the place. This is. The whole Karen Reid thing just ended today. So it's like, yeah, there's red solo cups involved in your police investigation. You've done it wrong.

[James Petregallo]

Anybody got a Piggly Wiggly bag?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Anybody? Yeah, I'm gonna put this hand I found in it. Yeah, I'm just gonna. No, I'll tie the top up. I'll tie it off. Don't worry. Throw the hands out, would you? Oh, Jesus Christ. Crime scenes here had been compromised. Yeah, just contaminated reports were misfiled in wrong places and couldn't be found. A critical fingerprint card from a suspected murder weapon was inexplicably lost. Oh, can't. That's not helpful.

[James Petregallo]

It's lost. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. A retired detective from this area said we weren't ready for someone like him. Sounds like you weren't ready for any crime at all. Just anything. You're not ready for a DUI investigation. This is ridiculous. You're not ready for kids fucking TPing their principal's tree. You're not ready for anything.

[James Petregallo]

You're not ready for a cat in a tree, motherfucker.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nothing? No, he said we weren't ready for someone like him. He played by rules we didn't know existed. You should know, since you're the detectives.

[James Petregallo]

These are your rules.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But they said eventually, through all the work with federal agencies, about the drug, because everybody in here is in drug. Involved in Drugs. So that means they're all up for huge mandatory federal sentences. Which means they're all willing to tell on everybody. So that's how this whole ball gets rolling. They also said they couldn't tell if maybe he was getting sloppy doing this shit in front of people. Yeah, Wickline is sloppy. Maybe he's overconfident. Or maybe he just doesn't give a fuck anymore.

[James Petregallo]

He doesn't care.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bloodlust. Speaking of bloodlust. October 17, 1983. He is out of jail at this point. A young man named John Anthony Muncie. M U N C Y Some. Some sources have it as I. E. And that will. You'll not be able to find shit if you look for that, trust me, because it took me a long time. So John Anthony Anthony Muncie. Goes by Tony. So using a short and shortened middle name. Yeah, he's 15 years old, Tony Muncie. He's in the ninth grade. He had withdrawn from Ridge Walnut Ridge High School to attend a parochial. A parochial school called Rosemont. And apparently his mother phoned the Delaware County Sheriff's Department after she had heard that a body had been found. She said her son had been missing since 1pm on Saturday when he went to visit a friend and never showed up. So she wants to see if that's her son. They found a body. This is horrifying. An area resident was driving along South Galena road at about 8am when he saw garbage bags littering the embankment between Alexander and Golf Course roads. How many times have we said this? It's never something good.

[James Petregallo]

Never.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's always something bad. It's either leaves or something terrible. One of the two.

[James Petregallo]

Or Arizona. The chain gang left all their shit there and so it worked later. Either way, it's just trash or a body.

[Jimmy Wissman]

One of the two. It's never going to be that piece that fell off the armored car truck. That bag that fell out that they didn't get back at any time.

[James Petregallo]

They don't put that in Glad Bags.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, they don't. So he stops to investigate this whole thing. He was going to a local grocery store to buy milk, this guy. And he was looking for deer on the way home. That's why he was looking off to the side of the road. And then he saw the bags. He said, quote, I thought I saw an elbow sticking out. So we stopped. What? So we did what? Why?

[James Petregallo]

Why would you do that?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Go home and call the cops if you think it's an elbow. You guys look at it. I'm not Fucking investigating this. An elbow. So we stopped and it turned out it was a leg. So we called the sheriff. If it was an elbow, we wouldn't have called. Yeah, it was an elbow. We would have let it go. But we said, oh, a leg. We gotta call the sheriff. Turns out to be the nude and dismembered body of 15 year old Tony Muncie. Yeah, yeah. He was stuffed in three plastic garbage bags. Yeah, this is sounding very familiar. Along the side of South Galena Road, the body was first spotted by Richard Pestle, was the guy's name. And yeah, he said the boy's arms. Yikes. Were severed at the shoulders and put in one bag. His mutilated torso was found wrapped in a separate bag and his clothing in another. His body was found wrapped in several garbage bags. All wrapped up, too. That is horrifying. And his torso was mutilated with a knife or other sharp object. I think we know it's a knife here by now. This is wild. So they said that they go crazy investigating this. It's a teenage boy found fucking dismembered.

[James Petregallo]

And newly taken apart.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, yeah. And they said at the first few days they were uncovering all sorts of leads, but nothing panned out. There was nothing at all. His mother said. Tony's mother said she thought her son was staying with a friend, but became concerned when he didn't come home Sunday morning. And then he heard that she heard a body was found of what looked like a teenage boy. That's why she called the cops. She thought he was at his friends the whole time. But it turns out he never arrived at his friend's house, didn't get there. She said, if this can happen to Tony, it can happen to anyone. I am fearful for my other children. As you should be. They just find out that, wow, he died from stab wounds. And some were just to mutilate. They weren't even just to kill. They were also to mutilate. They did find out that he had not been sexually molested, though. So that's, I guess, just straight up murder. That's positive, I suppose. Well, it also fits into Wickline's mo. Yeah, they first thought it was drug related because his autopsy showed traces of marijuana. It's drug related because a 15 year old smoked a joint with three other guys after school. So it must be a drug related. He's in so deep with his trace amount of marijuana that someone wanted to fucking dismember him and put him in bed. Wow, that's a lot. They said he was A known occasional user. Oh. Oh, my God. I'm gonna go hide and lock all my doors because I'll be dead any day now.

[James Petregallo]

What have I gotten myself into in my mid-40s?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fuck. I know. I might as well just cut myself up. You know what I mean? Forget it then. After a minute, though, they said they found no correlation between drug use or dealing and this murder. Nor did any substantial leads come from the early questioning of friends who allegedly saw him with several older teenagers at York Plaza, which is a mile east of where the family was living, the evening before his body was found. So, I mean, that's the night before, so who knows where the fuck he was. An interview with his girlfriend, Tony's girlfriend, several days after the murder also revealed nothing. So they said they couldn't find shit. They said, quote, she did not say anything of any significance. It's possible she was not completely candid, but I don't think so. I don't think she knows anything that could solve the case. So, yeah, this is just disappointment. Disappeared and was cut up. Now, the. They interviewed the girl. The girl's mother was there. Also two social workers and her attorney. That's a. That's a crowded interrogation room.

[James Petregallo]

Shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

To social work. Wow. Yeah, that's a. It's a lot of people in there. They said that the detectives were going to return to Rosemont School to try to get permission to interview more of the friends. They said that two other interviews Wednesday did not turn up any new information about Tony Muncie. They said they checked with a woman who said she thought she saw Muncie playing pinball Saturday with an older man on the west side of Columbus. They said that they do not. But the cop also said that they don't think that it's accurate. Another friend of Muncie said the last time he spoke with him was last week on the phone. And family members say they want to search. The cops said they want to search, interview family members and search the home, but the family is in Kentucky for the funeral, so they can't do that. About a week goes by, and they say that they have. The motive is just elusive. They'd have no idea. They said by this time, we usually have a feel for the case, but there's just nothing there yet. We're having trouble even coming up with any possible motive. Nothing. They said they even investigated 14 new names in an attempt to find motive. But they said basically they're feeling a little exasperated by the investigation at this point. They don't know what to do. The sheriff said there's lots of unanswered questions about this killing. We have no clear cut motive, nor do we even know where the killing occurred. Answers to either or both of those questions would be of considerable value to us. Yeah, you just have bags full of parts with no fingerprints on them. So they said that they. Whoever killed him and cut him up must have wanted the body to be found, they said because a few hundred yards away from where the remains were discovered was a creek and a heavily wooded area where the body could have easily been hidden for a much longer. This was on an embankment. This was find this body. Yeah, definitely. Which all these bodies, except for the Lurches, have been wanted to be found. Obviously the head on the nightstand, somebody wants somebody to see something there. So yeah, this is horrifying. They can't get anything on it and they really have a hard time with finding anything. And a year goes by and they do have a suspect for Muncie's killing and it's Timothy e. Hall, a 20 year old who is in the Franklin County Jail. They say he is the prime suspect in another murder, the Hubert Eugene Campbell murder in Columbus. The similarities to the two murders are there. And they said some evidence found in the Muncie killing points to Hall. They said they had hoped the case would have gone to trial long ago, but insisted the prospects of solving it are not getting worse. They're getting better now. They said, I think we'll solve this one. Even though most homicides are usually difficult to solve up here. That's a weird statement.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why are they difficult to solve? Quote up here?

[James Petregallo]

Why do you have so many too?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the other thing. Why can't you solve them? There's a valid theory that if a homicide is not solved within 48 hours, it gets harder and harder to to solve. But that's not true in this type of case. It takes a long time to gather evidence and put things together. He said it's a perplexing and frustrating case. We're not getting the feedback that we hope for people on the streets. We usually get a lot of leads to check. Even if they're fruitless here we're getting very little. We've done a lot of digging too. So they did say one clue they found was a plaid blood stained shirt found near the dismembered body. And they said that might be the key here. They said the shirt which may belong to this hall guy who's a mental patient. They said somebody said that he had a shirt sort of like that. That's the connection they have.

[James Petregallo]

He had a plaid shirt.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He had a plaid shirt in 1982 or whatever, whenever he was 83. Blood soaked, plaid shirt. Yep. They said the sheriff's department took blood and hair samples from Hall. A who at that point was a patient at the Moritz Psychiatric Hospital in Columbus. He go undergoing psychiatric testing after being charged with another murder. The sheriff said that they filed an affidavit to conduct the search warrant. He said it's certainly the most solid lead we have. He's the best suspect to date. We don't have a clear cut motive, but there's reason to believe that Muncie and Hall were acquainted. They said that, you know, they thought it was drugs at first, but now they don't think so. They said we're not ready to make an arrest as there's a lot more investigation, investigative work to do. But we have reason to believe that hall was involved. The hair and blood samples have been sent to the FBI lab for testing. Turns out, not hall, by the way.

[James Petregallo]

Whoops.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Whoops. They said it's his understanding. The sheriff said that hall was already a resident at the Columbus Psychiatric Hospital last fall, but had walked away sometime before the dates of the murder he's charged with and Muncie's murder. They said it's known that he was walking around free on the streets at the time of Muncie's murder. He said at the time of the killing, we found a shirt at the scene that did not belong to the victim. Since then, we've shown a picture of the shirt to relatives of hall and they indicate he had a similar shirt.

[James Petregallo]

One day.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Here's a picture of a shirt. Did your cousin have this a year ago? How the fuck do I know? It doesn't say anything on it that would make it, you know. Oh yeah, that's his fucking. You know, I'm with stupid shirt. I know that one.

[James Petregallo]

If it doesn't have a name tag on it, then let's move on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, shit. They said that this lead started to firm up around Christmas time. We began asking questions on the street. Began developing information that hall may have been involved in the killing. Importantly, it's known that Muncie and Hall knew each other. But just what the association was, no one has answers for. They said hall is also capable of a vicious crime like that. They said right now there's some evidence to indicate hall could have done it. We have some evidence and some testimony. But we have to dig up even more that would corroborate what we have. Yeah, it's not hall at all. So it's not him. Then there's another victim. In Florida. Informants tell police, multiple informants, that Wickline accepted a contract to execute a man in Florida in early 1983.

[James Petregallo]

Oh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Police then contacted Miami Dade county police, who confirmed that in January 1983, the body parts of a man had been discovered in a canal in a rural section of the county. Exactly where these informants told them that Wicklines told them that he put them. That's. They just looked where they were told to look, and there's the fucking body parts.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. They said that they were still trying to identify the man, but he had been stabbed to death, decapitated and dismembered. I think we got a routine here. So the Dade county detectives said that the medical examiner who assisted in the investigation had suggested police consider looking for suspects among the hog farmers of the area.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, hog farmers chop people up because.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They have obvious knowledge of butchery displayed by the killer. And it was an area where there was a lot of hog farms. They were like, this is.

[James Petregallo]

Toss out the. They would just feed it to the hogs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They would feed it to the hogs, and also, I mean, they make some bacon. Who knows? I don't think they just leave them. And how the hell would these people all know about it then?

[James Petregallo]

Right? Right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

If some random hog farmer did it, they wouldn't be informants in all over Ohio and West Virginia with this information. So the police at the time were told by the medical examiner, whoever killed this person, quote, really knew what he was doing.

[James Petregallo]

No shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So again, a pattern. Now, January of 84 is when Wickline is arrested for breaking into the Foster drugstore and is arrested at the scene. He's given a year and a half in jail for this. Okay, while he's in jail here, this is when Teresa Kemp takes the handcuffs, the jewelry, the wedding ring, the knife, and everything else belonging to Chris and Peggy Lurch to the cops. She takes him all to the cops and says, here you go. Now, there's conflicting reports of when he was arrested. By the way, it says in a report that he was arrested at the scene of the drugstore robbery. But then another report says that he was arrested in a shitty motel on the outskirts of Columbus, where he was using an alias named Cliff Harmon to stay there. Either way, everybody said he's armed or he's calm and eerily cooperative when taken into custody. That's what cops always say. Strangely cooperative. They said he didn't Run. He didn't flinch. Like he had already played the scene out in his head.

[James Petregallo]

He knows how this is going to go. I'll deal with it in the court.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yep. So there's several witnesses that allege that Wickline detailed killings with clinical detachment, discussing the best ways to dismember a corpse, how to silence a victim, and which cleaning chemicals worked best to destroy the evidence you leave behind as well. Your blood evidence. Best. Wow. That's a lot. So the prosecution is now coming up with these big timelines of where was he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one of those things. They have to figure out where he was, because wherever he was, at whatever time, you're looking for dismemberments around there. And, yeah, it's this guy. So they're looking for everything. They're tracking his movements, looking at call logs, bills that he's paying, everything. If they can get a phone bill from 1979, they'll get it. Like, they just want to know. One discovery they made that they were a little freaked out about was a receipt for large quantities of muriatic acid purchased under a pseudonym, which, by the way, matched the acid residue found at a suspected disposal site.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that's not good at all. He's. But this is what these hitmen do, though. They find the best ways to do things, and they really perfect it and get it just right. So the Columbus Dispatch newspaper quoted an unidentified police source as saying that Wickline may be linked to two other central Ohio killings. They quoted police as saying that the slayings were the acts of a, quote, psychopathic killer who robs for money and drugs and gets a kick from cutting the heads off of victims. My Christ. So December of 84, he's finally charged with murder. Oh, he is charged with the swampy murder.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He absolutely is. So they say. Besides the testimony of Pixie who talked about this, the case is also supported by evidence, including the fact that he has somebody else's wedding ring and all that kind of shit. So they're saying that he's a murderer. They call him publicly. Prosecutors contend he's a drug dealer and the leader of a cult of female drug addicts.

[James Petregallo]

The leader of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Those two things don't go together, though, because a cult is worshiping something. The drugs are the thing. So you don't need to say they're a cult. They're just drug addicts.

[James Petregallo]

They're cult worshiping drugs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes, that's exactly right. So that's just called a bunch of drug Addicts that hang out together and that's it. Or a pimp that has control over them with drugs and money. Another guy, this is a retired Columbus detective who interviewed Wickline. He said Wickline was just a scary guy. He's got those eyes and you can just tell, right? Okay. Peggy Lurch's mother here said they tried to interview them. And Peggy Lurch's mother said they got themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and then hung up on the reporters. That's all she wanted to say. So this is. Yeah, this is basically. I'll read this from a newspaper here at this time, William Wicklines Jr. S macabre methods were, to some homicide investigators, the mark of a professional killer. Carve up the victim, bag the body parts, scatter the bags where no one will look. No corpse, no crime. No body, no crime.

[James Petregallo]

Impressive. And he figured this out so long ago, and he was doing it all over the place.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Everywhere. Everywhere, they said. Here's another West Virginia police detective. Said he was the most dangerous criminal I've ever run across in this state. Now, he disagrees. Wickline, he says he's a hell of a guy. He says he denies killing the couple at all. He says this Teresa is just a jealous, spurned lover who invented this whole tale to keep custody of her then infant son after admitting drug use and sales to authorities. They told her they were gonna take your kid away unless you tell on this guy. So she made up this whole story, which happened to match up to the evidence perfectly somehow.

[James Petregallo]

Incredible.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Incredin that weird. She must fucking be a psychic. You know.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So Teresa, you would think she'd be charged with something because she held a woman's legs down while she was strangled to death. But she was never charged because the way the prosecution put it, quote, she didn't do much to help kill Mrs. Lurch.

[James Petregallo]

Not much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Are you joking? Are you kidding me? That's crazy. She fucking held her legs down. That's crazy. And that prosecutors couldn't find evidence of intent to kill. Okay, now another charge also here while he's in jail for this, Columbus Police Department match a set of his prints with an August 29, 1979 ADA, Ohio, Breaking and entering of a pharmacy. So he left prints and they matched him up a 5 year old breaking and entering. So they're going to charge him with that, too. So, yeah, he at the time had used an alias and was released. They didn't have his fingerprints going, so then they. Yeah, so but now they matched him. When he was in this time. Now, there's another thing that they think he's a prime suspect for.

[James Petregallo]

Go on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And that is a murder in Logan, Ohio, which we've done an episode in, but not this. A murder in Logan, Ohio, where the man they convicted and was already sentenced to death is on death row. And they think, oh, shit, this guy might have done it. That's not good. So they said. In addition. This is from the newspaper. In addition to the six killings to which Wickline has been linked in some fashion, detectives in the Columbus area Police Department believe he should be investigated for a possible connection to two other dismemberment murders. The 1982 killings of 19 year old Todd Schultz and his 18 year old girlfriend, Annette Johnston, whose body parts were found in and near a cornfield in Logan.

[James Petregallo]

Ooh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

In 1984, Ms. Johnston's stepfather, Dale N. Johnson, was convicted of those killings and put on death row. Yeah, not good. So they say there's possible links. The killer of Ms. Johnston and Schultz dismembered and decapitated the victims. Obviously that sounds like Wickline. Unlike the other cases already linked to Wickline, there was an added element of mutilation in these murders, though the sex organs of both victims were cut off and never found. Which is gross. And you say that's a specific thing. But if he also sometimes cuts heads off and puts them on nightstands, this guy might be. He just might be exploring or, you know, fucking trying new stuff. Trying new shit out on the road. You know what I mean?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Trying some new jokes on the road type of deal.

[James Petregallo]

Burying a new one in the middle of the act.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what I mean. They won't notice between these two good jokes. So, yeah, that's interesting. So they said that. A three judge panel convicted Dale N. Johnston. Prosecutors portrayed Johnson as an insanely jealous stepfather who had an incestuous relationship with his stepdaughter Annette, and who went into a jealous frenzy over her plans to marry Schultz. The prosecution focused on the situation within the Johnston household. So no evidence on the murdered couple's lifestyle or any possible drug involvement was presented at trial. Because it was all in the house. Despite the verdict, some Columbus area homicide detectives have said they still believe Wickline should be the suspect here. The Beacon Journal published a series of articles that raised questions about the police conduct in the investigation of the Logan killing. At that time, police sources said that Logan investigators never seriously considered any suspects other than Johnston and that they doubted the killings could have happened in the manner alleged by the prosecutors, they said. But does all this make Wickline a better suspect than Dale Johnston? Well, if he's never dismembered anybody, probably.

[James Petregallo]

I would say so, yeah. And he was there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And he was there. Investigators in three different police agencies say they believe the question of Wickline's possible involvement should be investigated further. One police investigator and one prosecutor, however, say they don't think that Wickline committed the Logan murders. They said, based on cases in which they investigated Wickline, he was strictly a professional killer. Thus, the sexual mutilations of the Logan victims would not be characteristic of Wickline. Well, then it wouldn't be characteristic of him to write shit on the walls either. But he did. Also, there was no drug angle brought out in the Logan case. Again, there's no drug angle in the Muncie case either. I think he likes killing people.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, that's that. Columbus lawyer Don Woolery, who represented Wickline at his murder trial, said he was convinced Wickline did not murder Schultz and Ms. Johnston, but added that he could not divulge why he was so certain. I just know, but I can't tell you why. Woolery charged that some police investigators might be trying to clear their books of some unsolved crimes by trying to blame Wickline. That's not true. It's as solved as it gets. There's a guy on death fucking row for it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's already closed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Super solved. Yeah. Another friend said he didn't do it. One friend said she had put the question directly to Wickline after she heard of the Logan murders, asking, have you been out playing again? Yeesh. Yikes. But Wickline denied he was involved in that at all. He also denied that he was involved in the two murders he was convicted of as well. So you know what he's gonna be convicted of later. So, I mean, come on. They said some people investigators, some police investigators are haunted by the possibility that one man may have committed all these murders. And we'll find out. So here's the police theory that he did it. They said the notion that there could have been two such sadistic butchers operating at the same time in the same small area of Ohio. Yeah, it's a little bit too big of a coincidence. Yeah, that's. That's one of the things they said. Only rare, rarely, is a killer capable of this behavior. And to have two of these guys in the same place. What kind of hell on earth was Columbus, Ohio, back in the day?

[James Petregallo]

It's not much better today.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. Yeah, no shit. Wickline was living just a few miles from Logan when Ms. Johnston and Schultz were slain. According to a friend of Wicklines, he left Columbus after the Lurches were killed in August 82 and moved to a trailer in the rural community just north of the Hocking Fairfield county line. Wickline continued living an active outlaw life after he moved to the Logan area. And police sources claim he was part of a burglary ring that specialized in breaking into drugstores, then dealing the stolen narcotics. The same sources confirmed the ring was active in the Logan area. Wickline's Last arrest in January 84, occurred 15 miles from Logan in Nelsonville, where police arrested him during a thwarted drugstore burglary. Wickline's arrest there, they said. Now, Ms. Johnston and Schultz were known to have friends in the Buckeye Lake area of northern Fairfield county, an area among the first where police were dispatched to search for the two after they were reported missing. Wickline also frequented that area, stashed stolen goods and drugs there, and had friends and relatives in the same area. Wickline also demonstrates the proclivity and expertise for committing murders like the ones in Logan. Law enforcement officials from three different agencies said that dismembering his victims was more than just an efficient means of body disposal for Wickline. One said, quote, he really seemed to enjoy it. It was like a sport to him. He was good at. He was good at it and he liked it. Officially, the Johnston case is before the state Appellate court, from which a ruling on Johnston's motion for a retrial is expected within the next month or two. Logan Police Chief Steve Barron said that he could not comment on the case because it's still adjudicated. However, he said he'd be willing to discuss the case with any legitimate police investigator. He said if anybody's got any questions and they have a real lead. He said, anytime a police officer has any information on a crime in my jurisdiction, any crime, I want to talk with him.

[James Petregallo]

Him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But under the provisions of Ohio's home rule laws, crime is largely a local matter. Issues such as when to close or reopen an investigation and whether to cooperate with other police agencies in a multi jurisdictional investigation are decided solely by local authorities. Now, attorneys Thor Dale Johnston say they're watching the charges against Wickline closely.

[James Petregallo]

Really.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Johnston has been sentenced to death, obviously, and his attorney called the similarities in the murders which Johnston was convicted and the slayings in which Wickline is a Suspect pretty striking, I would say.

[James Petregallo]

Get him out of there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. So little bit of a psychological profile of this guy, of this someone who would take people apart. This is a lot of. This is from Katherine Ramsland, Dr. Ramslin that wrote the book about. She wrote a lot of books about serial killers, but especially btk. She's gone over his shit with a fine tooth comb. So she knows a lot of gross. A lot of gross shit here. They say that it's a decapitation is pretty rare in a murder. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, number one. And it's pointless is the other thing.

[James Petregallo]

And you got to have a lot of time and willingness to stick around. There's all kinds of shitty reasons to do it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And it's not for identification purposes because there's plenty of other ways to identify the body. So they said when it does occur, it's often about domination and symbolic control. So they said, like Katherine Ramsland said, that murders who decapitate and retain body parts frequently fall into two categories. Mission oriented killers and sexually sadistic psychopaths. I think our guy falls more in column A. Yeah, I think he dips a toe in column B once in a while, but not much. What sets Wickline apart is the absence of a clear sexual gratification. Instead, his profile aligns with what criminologists call a power assertive dismember. This is someone who removes the head to dehumanize and to erase identity and to send a message.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, but to who? Anybody in particular?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Anybody? In Marsh's case, they said the placement of the head combed and displayed and the eerie note on the wall suggests not just cruelty, but theatricality. Yeah, it's a look at what I did. It's a show off thing. Wickline was known to have studied anatomy and psychology. He didn't just kill. He curated the scene. Psychologists argue that keeping ahead or even just being present for a beheading serves as a way to mentally own the victim forever.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, but it also signifies a real trouble and problem behind the. Behind the mask. Being capable of doing that is fucked up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, yeah, if that's your thought process. If I do this, I'll own them forever. That's a pretty weird fucking thing to think. I wouldn't think like that. They said it's not unlike trophy hunting. You don't just want to win. You want to mount proof above your fireplace. That's what they. That's their trophies. For Wickline, the severed head was likely a confirmation of dominance. The Same could be said of him keeping Peggy Lurch's wedding ring. Which is a lot of times why they keep trophies. Yeah. And sometimes. Here's what John Douglas said. And this is an interesting quote. It fits perfect. It's not always about lust or rage. Sometimes it's about craftsmanship. Sometimes they just want to ply their craft.

[James Petregallo]

John, why are you writing advertisements for murder?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's true. He's saying the truth. It's the truth. An artist wants to paint. Not because they have to, because they feel like it. They like it because they're good at it. And they want to show how good they are at it. It's about craftsmanship. It's creepy, but true. So they said no single profile fits all offenders. Obviously, certain psychological patterns frequently emerge. Psychopathy and sadism. Obviously. They said that offenders who behead may display high levels of psychopathy. Including lack of empathy, grandiosity, manipulativeness, enjoyment of other suffering. I think this all sounds like him. These individuals may derive psychological gratification from the acts. Experiencing a sense of dominance or godlike control. They said also in rare cases, it can be some sort of psychotic disorder. Some delusional. They hold some sort of religious. Or some kind of, you know, God told me to do it, some shit like that. Those happen when they believe the victim's possessed. Hallucinations, commanding the act, paranoid delusions. A lot of times that's a schizophrenic. Severe paranoid schizophrenic and shit like that. They said beheading can be symbolic. Especially in an intimate partner homicide or a revenge killing. The head represents identity, face, voice. So removing it may symbolize erasure of the person. Ownership or control of the victim. Or punishment and dehumanization. So after Wickline is indicted for the Lurch case. Because that's what he's arrested for. Because that's what Teresa came forward on. That's when West Virginia and Columbus police Start sharing information with each other. And that's when he's indicted for the Swampy killing as well. For killing Charles Marsh. Now, he had an accomplice in the Lurch murders besides Theresa.

[James Petregallo]

Really?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. Thomas J. Dillon. Let's enter. You could open this up to a whole other avenue of scum here. Thomas J. Dillon, who at the time this all was going on. Was on trial for cocaine distribution charges here. Is also charged in killing a lawyer in Knoxville, Tennessee. So he's gonna go on trial in Ohio for the murders of the Lurches. Wickline is. This is Wickline now. So Teresa is gonna be the star witness. Obviously, she told. And also Pixie as well. These stories match up to police reports and everything like that, but they also have a lot of fucked up timelines and dates because, you know, this happened three years ago, and they're all on three to six years ago. And everyone's doing a lot of drugs all the time, so you can't expect it, but you expect just those big details. If they match up, it's probably a pretty good idea. Especially having the wedding ring. Having the murder weapon.

[James Petregallo]

That's not good. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Having those people's blood in your bathtub, you know, So I guess his common law wife, whoever that was, was barred from testifying. And a friend told prosecutors that they wouldn't testify because he was afraid Wickline would kill him.

[James Petregallo]

Oh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And so he was charged with contempt because he wouldn't testify. They find one pretty bad piece of evidence for Wickline. Here would be a jailhouse letter seized by correctional officers.

[James Petregallo]

What did he write?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Written in his handwriting.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It included a diagram detailing how to efficiently clean a crime scene using industrial strength solvents.

[James Petregallo]

Yeesh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It said, make sure to remove baseboards. Blood gets in everywhere.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it does.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. He's. He's smart. He knows how to clean across. How many fucking people is this guy killed?

[James Petregallo]

It's gotta be so numerous.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's all over the place. Different states, everything like that.

[James Petregallo]

You don't learn that after two.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, this is all. This is experience. He was telling people in the 70s how to gut people.

[James Petregallo]

Removing baseboards, that's so much work.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's serious, man. Yeah. You got to know construction in addition to murder. You have to know how to be a finishing carpenter in addition to the murder. You got to put the cabinets back on. Right. Teresa Kemp testifies to everything we already said, she said about the Peggy Lurch killing. Quote, I held Lurch's legs because I was afraid I would be next to die if I did not do exactly what Wickline said, I would be next. Which is probably right, honestly. Yeah, she probably is right now. Dylan. Also, they get him to testify. I don't know if he's getting a break or what, but recounted being, at one point in the 70s or whatever, being summoned to Wickline's garage where a body had already been partially dismembered. And he said Wickline handed him a hacksaw and pointed to the legs and said, quote, he told me we got work to do. Like it was a Saturday chore. Like we were going out to Trim the hedges or something.

[James Petregallo]

Pointed at the legs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Holy shit. Another former associate said that Wickline once demonstrated how to sever arteries to minimize blood spray. This is how intricate and in depth he's gotten into this. Think about how many times you have to kill someone to where you're so calm you can be like, well, let me do this so it doesn't spray too much. Wow. He said that Wickline talked about killing the way most guys talk about fixing cars, hence the mechanic. They said the defense counsel grilled both of these men about their past lies and contradictions and plea deals and all that kind of shit, but. But their details hang in the air like fucking, you know, like. Like spores just dancing in the. In the evening breeze. So the defense calls witnesses during the trial who? This is the defense. They have. They have people who claim to have seen people they said looked like the Lurches a short time after they were killed.

[James Petregallo]

Huh?

[Jimmy Wissman]

They go, yeah, I think it was them. I saw. Are you sure? Not positive, but I think so. Think they're alive. So the defense contends that the Lurches are alive, by the way, and in hiding over some cocaine debt or whatever. Now the verdict comes in. By the way, he waived his right to a jury trial and instead gets a three judge panel. Three judge panel. This is so all three. He is found guilty with two counts of aggravated murder, and that's in the deaths of Christopher and Peggy Ann Lurch. Now the sentencing comes around. Okay. The three judge panel returned the guilty verdict. And the council, Wickline's counsel turned the mitigation turned to the mitigation statute of the Ohio public defenders manual dealing with the mitigation hearing. Counsel went through each mitigating factor with Wickline. This is where we're going to say this, that counsel advised Wickline that he could have a psychiatric report. But the counsel said he chose not to have one for two reasons. First, Wickline said he wanted nothing to do with psychiatrists or psychologists. So if he's not going to cooperate, it's pointless. Second, the council felt like a psychiatric report would reflect negatively on Wickline. They'd call him a cold blooded fucking monster psychopath. Yeah, psychopath with no remorse. Counsel also advised Wickline that a pre sentence report delving into his background could be prepared. But Wickline, quote, wanted nothing to do with this with the probation officer. So the council requested to speak with Wickline's family. Wickline was, quote, very strong on this. He did not want to drag his family into this thing and basically told us no as far as his family was involved. So everything they said, this is how you mount a mitigation defense. He said, don't do any of that. I don't want any of that done. They also said they were concerned that if they put witnesses on the stand to testify about his good character, that would open the door for the prosecution to bring in all of his other bad acts. So you can't do that. And they said that evidence would definitely hurt him in a sentencing phase, that this isn't the only time he's killing people and shit like that. Counsel reviewed Wickline's prison files, but chose not to prevent them, to avoid highlighting his numerous incarcerations. Because the jury doesn't know about that, that he's in and out of prison forever. As far as the jury knows, he went nuts one day and did this all on a whim. So after two or three meetings to discuss their strategy, Wickline and his counsel decided to argue that Chris and Peggy facilitated the murders. Facilitated them by attempting a drug ripoff. So that it was basically self defense. They asked to be dismembered by trying to rob me. Yeah, that's. That's interesting. So the council felt that it would be best to focus on their strongest mitigating factor. Avoid the danger of opening the door to harmful information and not clouded up with stuff we couldn't prove. He said, though. But Wickline has the final decision of how they proceed. By the way he speaks during this sentencing hearing. All about Teresa Kemp. That's all he wants to talk about.

[James Petregallo]

She's a bitch.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Pretty much. This fucking bitch. He contends that his arrest is the result of a jilted woman spreading rumors to friends.

[James Petregallo]

Jilted.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jilted. Dump that. Dump that bitch. And now she's telling, I went out.

[James Petregallo]

To the bar too many nights and didn't tell her. And now she's telling people she held down legs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's so jilted that a baby jumped in her stomach right afterwards. That's how jilted she was. Held down. The legs. Yeah. One of whom was the wife of a jail inmate who gave police the tie, which led to his arrest. So Wickline believes that the police intimidated Teresa into describing the murders by threatening her with the death penalty for her involvement, which they probably did. They said, if you help, that's a death penalty crime. He described Kemp as the one who would have no problem lying to police. And he's even as the one who stood to profit Financially. From the story she told, he claims that Teresa now has $10,000 worth of possessions, which she took from his apartment after his arrest, even though he told her to take the stuff and please put it in a storage for me. In his statement, he attempts to discredit the testimony by pointing out Teresa's weakest points of testimony. He contends that he had the Lurches jewelry as collateral for the $6,000 that Chris owed him for cocaine. Wasn't I didn't steal it. I took it as collateral. Further, he says that it was the Lurches who were fighting and not himself and Chris. He said, I wasn't fighting with Chris. Peggy and Chris were fighting each other. We were just there. He said the argument involved Chris Lurch's infidelity. And in that context, Chris made the snide remark about being with Teresa Kemp at a hotel. He said it wasn't, as Teresa related, a comment, directed at me to piss me off. It was directed at his wife to piss her off. Oh, duh.

[James Petregallo]

Sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He then denied that he and Chris ever even argued that morning. He said, we didn't even argue. He claimed to have no involvement in their death at all. And then he says this about that's the one comfort I have is the hope and the belief that they will be found and that I hope they are found alive. But even if they are found dead and in one piece, then will she be made to pay back what she has done to me?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, what she's done to him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. He says, what if they find him alive? What if they find him dead but not dismembered? Then she lied and it's all, then what? Then she can apologize to me and she can pay back with what she's done to me. The judge has something to pay back to him. The judge says, you, sir, may fuck off. For the Chris Lurch murder, life in prison.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And for the Peggy Lurch murder, death penalty.

[James Petregallo]

There it is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So, yes, that's what he got. Life and death.

[James Petregallo]

Only two.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's only the two. Now he's still up. He's still indicted and ready to go to trial in West Virginia on the Swampy Marsh murders. Here. Now, after the trial, the prosecutor said that after the trial, the two experienced Columbus homicide detectives independently came to his office, closed the door, and asked him to ensure that they and their families would be notified if Wickline ever left prison. These are the detectives, not the victims families or someone who testified against him. The detective said, he's going to come dismember my family if he gets out.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. He said, this is the prosecutor. These were not people who did things like that. There was true fear. I'd never seen it before, and I've never seen it since. Homicide detectives don't do that. They go, I have a gun. Come to my house, and I'll shoot you between the fucking eyes. They don't care. Now, Teresa Kemp never charged because she didn't participate in killing Chris Lurch and, quote, didn't do much to help kill fucking Peggy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And prosecutors couldn't find evidence of intent to kill on her behalf, so they just didn't charge her. They made a deal. You get immunity. That's what it is now. After being convicted and sentenced to death, Wickline moved for a new trial based in part on his counsel's failure to investigate mental health evidence. So they said, you're fine. Fuck off. Keep going on the directed people. Now, Swampy they're talking about. This is 10-10-85. The. The headline is Ohio man to stand trial and murder case. And they're saying he's already on death row, but he's charged with the murder of Charles Morgan Marsh. Police claim that he tortured him for two hours before strangling him with a telephone cord and cutting him up, putting his head on the nightstand, combing his hair. Right. And shit on the wall. Police contend that the killings drug related still. And so they say they're going to definitely prosecute him. Then a month later, on November 14, they say he might not be extra. Extradited to stand trial after all.

[James Petregallo]

Really?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. At one point, the prosecutor says, well, if they want to bury him in Ohio, really, who are we to. We don't want to stand in the way of that. Basically, if he didn't get the death penalty, we might do it, But, I mean, he's already got the die there.

[James Petregallo]

So what's it matter?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And basically, if. If they don't kill him, then we'll bring him over here. Who cares? But for now, let's see if they kill him first before we waste a bunch of money. Because West Virginia. One thing about West Virginia is it is not a rich state in terms of. No, it's the minimum of everything in government spending and things like that. So it's not a very wealthy state. So they don't want to spend money on a big murder trial that they don't have to spend, essentially. So, yeah. And they said that he waived his right to a speedy trial, which means that they don't have to Return him. They don't have to extradite him right away. And the prosecutor's office will. Now, they can wait and see basically as long as they want on this. All right. 1990, he appeals his conviction and sentence. More than a dozen points of law, including a claim that Ohio's death penalty is unconscious constitutional, were raised here. They say the Supreme Court turned down the appeal of death row inmate William Wickline. The justices let stand rulings that Wickline knowingly and intelligently waived his right to a jury trial in the case. That's what he tried to say. I didn't really want the three judge panel.

[James Petregallo]

I want to go back.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, well, when they do that, they ask you like three times so you're positive no one's coerced you, no one's promised you anything. That's. That's why they do that.

[James Petregallo]

No threats, right?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. So he was. That's crazy. 1994, they're still talking about the Logan murders.

[James Petregallo]

Really?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Wow. They. Annette Johnston and Todd schultz. This is November 27, 1994. Headline Killer lived near Logan. Police have never questioned him. They say there was an accomplished butcher of human beings living as an outlaw on the run near Logan at the time of the murders Here. His name is William Wickline. Two months before the bodies were discovered, Wickline murdered a Columbus couple here. Wickline's now on death row. Police suspect Wickline in three other killings in Florida and Ohio. The victims in each case were dismembered. According to two of Wickline's girlfriends. He had connections in this area, too. Wickline was regarded by police as a professional burglar, as well as a hitman and drug dealer. Wickline was never questioned or investigated in connection with the murders of Todd and Annette. He refused a request to be interviewed for this article as well.

[James Petregallo]

He didn't want to talk about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Didn't want to talk about it. 1996, he appeals again. They have some. These are basically like clemency interviews. Interview people with the case involved in the case. The former assistant prosecutor who was interviewed in 1996 said this, quote, Mr. Wickline should never be let out of prison and should never have his sentence of death reduced. He is the most dangerous man I've ever encountered. Wow. Ever. The prosecuting attorney, Michael Miller, said, I've never seen police officers fear a criminal like they do this man. I'm totally opposed to any leniency give being given to Mr. Wickline. We believe he has, in all probability killed in several other people. And if released, would kill again.

[James Petregallo]

Probably, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Immediately he'd go for revenge on whoever was fucking. Wrong guy. He's a terrifying man. Retired Detective Rich, she's BE of Columbus Police Department, said, this Mr. Wickline is the most dangerous man I've ever encountered in all the years of my career. We know he killed many more people and was not charged with their butchering. We could never prove these murders as Mr. Wickline so expertly disposed of their bodies, leaving no evidence. If he is ever released, he will most likely kill Lawana Flowers. That's Pixie Teresa Kemp, Jimmy Dennis and George King or two other guys that gave bits of information on him, but not as much as the other two. We didn't have time to get into them. In response to the victim notification issued by the parole board, a letter sent from the mother of Christopher Lurch, quote, another story for Wickline was a disappointment to myself, family and friends. All of the unhappiness and torture that this creature represents. Creature I like that he should not be living. There were even two other murders that they were certain he committed. How horrible does a person have to be? Personally, it's affected my life as to health and everyday living. Peggy sister said, this individual was convicted and sentenced to death. He's been allowed to take criminal justice. Take the criminal justice system to its limits with appeals granting stays of execution and more existence on earth. My family will never have closure of this tragedy unless this sentence is carried out. Please keep in mind the risk to survivors and all other citizens that are affected by his stay of execution. Well, it's not like they're letting him out on the street. He's still in maximum security prison on death row. Prolonging the inevitable only gives Wickline right rights. Rights he gave up the day he took other lives, man. His attorney, though, says his attorney for this phase, the appeals said his counsel did no investigation for the penalty phase of the case. Zero, they said. Now, in 1990, they said that wouldn't have mattered because backgrounds including child abuse and being forced into crime by his parents haven't dissuaded judges from imposing the death penalty in the past. You can't say my parents were mean to me, so that. That doesn't work.

[James Petregallo]

That's not a mitigator, dog, you guys.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's not a mitigator. Yeah, it would have to be. You know, my dad fucking sold me to gypsies or some weird crazy 50s story or some shit, you know. So a three judge panel rejects his request For a stay saying it was an old argument. He asserts a number of grounds for his petition saying all sorts of shit. Ineffective assistance of counsel number one. And this is why the three judge panel's knowledge of inadmissible prejudicial information, the extensive prejudicial media coverage and the failure to request a change of venue. Where? What state You've killed people everywhere. Arbitrary and capricious application of the death penalty. I think this is kind of what it was written for. Right?

[James Petregallo]

The people murderers. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Multiple that dismember people for fun.

[James Petregallo]

It seems like it's not him. Who is it?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what I mean. If it's not him, definitely get rid of it now. Failure to request defense experts Ohio Supreme Court's application of a lesser standard of proof for harmless error and failure to present mitigating evidence. Each of the six allegedly omitted issues either lacks merit or was raised by appellate counsel on direct appeal. So to demonstrate the court was that to the court that the council's performance was deficient a defendant much much show that the council's representation fell below an objective standard of reasonableness. You have to be insanely shitty to where people are like what the hell happened here? Wickline argues his trial counsel was ineffective for failing to investigate and present mitigating evidence in the penalty phase. He said his counsel should have investigated his mental health history and presented expert testimony on his psychological condition and also his background, character and all that shit which we know strategically would have been terrible for him.

[James Petregallo]

Don't do that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. So the court said even if counsel were deficient in investigating and presenting mitigating evidence, Wickline fails to satisfy the prejudice prong of this of a particular statute. Here Wickline argues that his trial counsel could have presented mental health evidence. But no, it doesn't matter, they said because in his psych profile it says there's no evidence of a thought disorder or psychotic reaction. And he's actually really smart and has an IQ of 124. So that actually hurt him. They're saying. So that wouldn't make fucking sense. They said the only thing they have is that he suffered from a mild depression sometimes. But there's no evidence that his depression made him cut people's heads off. Yeah, usually it's the opposite. So yeah, they said that. Wickline also argues his trial counsel should have introduced evidence of his good behavior during prior incarceration. But they said that would have made him. That would. That's a. That's a strategic decision not to do that. It's not that he was lazy and didn't do it. So. He also says that the council erred in presenting any evidence regarding his allegedly troubled upbringing. He vaguely states his relationship with his father was, quote, crucial to his development and the way he handled frustration and rage. And Quickline also asserts that the death of his mother, quote, devastated him. Again. Can't be killing people who care how devastated. Jar.

[James Petregallo]

I'm sad. My mom's dead, so I killed.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And the court said, while these experiences are unfortunate, they're not uncommon. It takes no citation of authority to state that many other people have endured similar experiences without resort to lawlessness or decapitation. Let's be specific here. 2003 is the U.S. court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit, and they reject him as well. So 2004. Execution is set for March of 2004.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So there's a clemency hearing and a written application with documentation outlining the reasons why he should receive executive clemency was filed with the parole board, and here it goes. Reasons expressed in favor of granting clemency are. He denied the murders. He never admitted it. But his sentence of death is based on uncorroborated testimony of an unindicted co conspirator, Theresa Kemp, who stood to gain financially from his incarceration. All the physical evidence that purports to connect Wickline to the crime was under direct physical control of Teresa Kemp before it was turned over to police. She did it. She dismembered a couple by herself. Yeah. Not the six' three fucking butcher, this lady. Wickline's record in prison has been exemplary. During the 1997 disturbance on death row, he took extraordinary steps to prevent other inmates from being killed and to bring a peaceful end to the disturbance. At considerable risk to his own safety and well being. This should mitigate in his consideration for executive clemency. Look at him. If you leave him alive, he'll do good things. He won't do bad things. Yeah. And also, it's improper to consider any other crimes he's not been convicted or tried for. There's no way to rebut these crimes. They've never been put to the test of legal proceedings. Crimes in West Virginia and other places should not be given consideration. Teresa Kemp says that she's been unable to sleep soundly for 22 years. Still haunted by the image of her lover holding a man's severed head in his hand, she said, do you know, I still walk into a bathroom sometimes and smell blood. That's what she told me.

[James Petregallo]

Christ.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The clemency board here, uh, Peggy's family, obviously said we vehemently, adamantly oppose any clemency. Still. No, that's not. You know, none of that's gone away. Well, the board said he's failed to accept responsibility for the crimes he's committed, expressed no remorse, done, nothing like that. And there was instant insufficient mitigation presented to outweigh all of the aggravating factors. And they say we recommend a 9 to 0. The board votes that he should go to fucking get executed.

[James Petregallo]

And on unanimous dime.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unanimous. You're the biggest piece of scum we have. Fuck off. Execution day is March 30, 2004. There's a big protest outside. A bishop, the leader of the Toledo diocese, says the church today feels it's very important to give witness to the sanctity of life. And that's what we're here doing tonight. That day, Wickline slept about five hours and visited with his brothers. Early Tuesday, they came to see him. He then showered and shaved. Had two cups of coffee and Rice Krispies.

[James Petregallo]

Nice.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Then he read the Bible and prayed. Okay, I don't think that's gonna do any good at this point. His last meal.

[James Petregallo]

Jimmy, here we go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What do you think he's gonna honor, Knowing him so far?

[James Petregallo]

Christ. Something very Ohio. I don't know. Corn.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's gonna be bloody or something. I know.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Something with blood. And eight ounce butchered. Eight ounce filet mignon.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Medium rare.

[James Petregallo]

Good choice.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's not a monster. He's a monster, but he's not an animal. That's good. If he said, well done. That's worse than killing six people, by the way. Destroying immediate filet mignon. Like that. Okay. Potato salad, six rolls with butter. Fresh strawberries over shortcake. And butter pecan ice cream. He also received four packs of Pall Mall cigarettes.

[James Petregallo]

He's gonna smoke four packs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Smoke up, Johnny. That's. That's a lot of four packs.

[James Petregallo]

He's gonna be gasping for air.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And six cans of soda, including three Mountain Dews. He's gonna be jacked and full of fucking nicotine and can't breathe. Can't breathe. Spent the day on the phone talking to his brother David and chatting with members of the execution team. Then about 4 o' clock.

[James Petregallo]

It's a bread guy. How about that, too?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, who's not a bread person?

[James Petregallo]

Six rolls, just meat. And a little bit of potato salad. A dessert. Fuckloads of cigarettes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I want a big loaf of Italian bread and four packs of cigarettes. I'd want Italian bread. Anyway, so about 4pm he served a special meal like we talked about. By the way, the steak came from the prison kitchen. They didn't even buy it outside. The other ingredients were bought at a local store for a total of $11.66.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So they're getting all this last meal, $11.66. Calm down. He also received four packs of Pall Mall cigarettes and six cans of soda too. We don't know what the cost on those was, but who knows what year 2004.

[James Petregallo]

It was a six pack. It was $1.29.

[Jimmy Wissman]

$20. Yeah. So the they take him out there to strap him in to be injected. His final words are, quote, maybe tomorrow, or I'm sorry, may tomorrow see the courts shaped by more wisdom and less politics. While I completely agree with that. Not out of your mouth though, stupid.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. But your. Your case is not one of them.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's exactly right. So they inject him. There we go. Lethal injection. So yeah, they also later on, little post game analysis. The defense didn't obtain a blood expert, nor were they allowed by Wickline to investigate the mental health evidence. On appeal, the defense argued that the prosecutor statements comparing the crime to the burning of Jewish bodies in Nazi concentration camps were prejudicial. But the claim was rejected. They went, murder's murder. Yeah. By the way, usually in Ohio. I'm sorry, A study done nationally, 2/3 of all capital cases are overturned due to constitutional errors. Ohio courts haven't had an 8% reversal rate.

[James Petregallo]

Oh my God.

[Jimmy Wissman]

66 to 8. A little bit different, right?

[James Petregallo]

All the time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Remember Dale N. Johnston?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. What happened?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, as of 2016, he's suing fucking everybody because he didn't do those fucking murders. Just like he said.

[James Petregallo]

Good for him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yep, he was. That's wild. He was convicted. The real killer, Chester McKnight, confessed in 2008. Confessed. That is fucking wild. So there we go. And by the way, they classified the case as the single most wrongful conviction and imprisonment in Ohio's history. And Lawana Pixie Norton died in 2016, by the way. We don't know why or how, but she was. She was almost 70 years old. So. Yeah. So that makes shit older than that. She was like 75, almost 80 years old. So that makes sense. So there you go. There is Parkersburg, West Virginia, and one fucking hell of a goddamn tale, I would say. Right.

[James Petregallo]

That's twisty. It's almost like not a lot of justice was done.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No. A lot of people got Nothing for their murders there. So anyway, very quickly, before we get to the end here, definitely head over to shut upandgivemerder.com all your merchandise, tickets to live shows. DC fucking Philly in December also definitely Irvine Improv and Seattle as well. There's tickets. Tickets for those. Shut up and give me murder.com follow on social media at smalltown Murder on Instagram at Smalltown Pot on Facebook. You want to do that? You certainly, certainly want Patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above. You get hundreds of back episodes. New ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder. This week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, the Liver King, that crazy documentary. And we'll talk more about the. The guy can't believe he's alive. I'm shocked. Small town murder, weird alien rabbit hole shit, conspiracy theories, everything we're going to get into. It's pretty good stuff here. Patreon.com CrimeInSports and you get a shout out right fucking now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never ever, ever dismember us and put us in a cornfield. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now.

[James Petregallo]

This week's executive producers are. Elena Zammel, Zammel Zamel. Gary Howard. Gary.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thank you, Gary.

[James Petregallo]

Isabella Gill. Who is this? Janice Hill, Ryan Paxton, Sadie Lanthier Hardy, Anthony Ayarza, Richard Dowd, Hank Haley and Timmy. Thank you all so much for what's going on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So much.

[James Petregallo]

You're amazing. Other producers this week are Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows. I need a dick in me. James. It's probably a person, I'm sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Legit.

[James Petregallo]

Real name Happy Hour.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Should have thought more before they named him.

[James Petregallo]

Happy Hour was in Eloy, Arizona. God damn.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow, my.

[James Petregallo]

I hope you made it out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus. My condolences for. It's a bad place Driving by Eloy.

[James Petregallo]

Wally Strickland. And happy birthday, Casey or Cassie Wright's husband, Garrett. I imagine it's Garrett Wright. Happy birthday, Garrett. Good for you. Larry Abercrombie. Shannon with no last name. Brian Murray. Allie with no last name. Jackson Brooks, Michael Bremster. Brem Sir Bremser. Carrie West, Victoria Amundsen, Sharon Jazzman, Terry Ellis, Samantha Fultz, Kenneth Tierney, Thomas Rutherford, Ryan Stiles. Oh, is it that one? Probably not. He's amazing though. That would be great.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I doubt it.

[James Petregallo]

I doubt it. Rissa with no last name. Shirley with no last name. Jennifer Roper. Widge with no Last name. Bobcat with no last name. Crystal Zimmerman. Chris Gian. Still Cinch. Kelby Marsh. Alicia Kruger Fallon with no last name. Don Guthrie. Lacey. Angevine Angiovini. Alibahu. Sheila sapienza. Terry Wozniak. Mr. Scooter Smith. The tripod cat. He's got three legs. James.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my goodness.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus. Good for you. Scooter Clay with no last name. Give Scooter a hug for me. Whoever's got that cat. Kelly Joe May whisper in that cat's ear. This is from Whisman. Make it real weird. Rowena Quinonan. Queen Anne. Chris with no last name. Deb with no last name. Emily and Shelby Hooper. Jessica with no last name. J.H. tesla. Nicole Judy Road. Amy Duplacy. Dalplissai Lane Vendesel.

[Jimmy Wissman]

One of those.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Kenzie with no last name. Kaylee Tengen. Tengen Tingen. Alyssa Finch. Casey Benjin. Benjamin Swan. Benjamin Swan.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Punjam and Swan.

[James Petregallo]

Sean with no last name. Samantha Spear. Jennifer Barton. Dorothy Katz. Rick Mazingo. Natasha Rustling. Parsons Rusling. Perhaps. Paul Long. Catherine Tucker. Yep. Sharon with no last name. Christopher Carmona. Jennifer P. Brad Sewell. Amy Stewart. Juan Esquivel. Heather Wong. Jonathan Brady. Sam Hunter. Michael Subject. Erica with no last name. Brian McKean. Alyssa. Oh, Melissa. Melissa Loud. Home Lodom. Damon Hansen. Kevin. Kevin Brookins. Kevin was his name. Kyla McDonald. Hannah Clevenger. Stephanie. Stephanie Long. Stefani perhaps. Victor Mancia. Nicole Geringer. Icy Blue. Jessica Lefebvre. Sonia. Sonja. Fighter. What? Schweifler. Schweifler. Schweifler. That is a brutal last name to try to say. Is there an L? It is. Schweifler. Alexandria Renkin. Jessica with no last name. Amber Daly. Amanda. Redact. Redact. Michael. Nope. That's Michelle Cotton. Yonji. Yonji. Yonji. Hong. Mike would. No last name. Kim Surratt. Melinda Burke. Lindsey with no last name. Maria with no last name. Sue with no last name. Gabriella Jurado. Nancy Kucer. Pigeon Couture. Holly Sullivan. That's gross. What? What are you wearing? This is Pigeon. Let's go tour.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's lovely. Don't get too close. It smells funny, but still, it's beautiful.

[James Petregallo]

It still has bugs in it. Holly Sullivan. Corey with no last name. Mites and lice. Tyler Laws. Ebony Miranda. If that's really somebody name.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Who would name their kid Pigeon?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. We're not sorry you got named that. Blame your parents. Don't fucking talk to us about Paul Thompson.

[James Petregallo]

Kathy Loves Jimmy. Tiffany Woolfolk. Melissa. My Lisa Miller. It's got to be Melissa. My Lisa.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, my Lisa. My visa.

[James Petregallo]

Karen McGuire. Sylvain LeBlanc. Terry Owens. Megan with no last name. Ryan. Christie. Danielle Nava. Shawna. Shayna o' Donnell. Big J. Swift. Eric with no last name. Brian Gandara. Colleen Overby. Emily Kaiser. Kelly Barnes. Malene. Melanie. Melanie McCarroll. Lisa Flan. Kathy Brown. Lydia the Librarian. Laura Harrison. Amy Hamill. Jerika Jerrica. Jericho Hopkins. Sicily. Sicily. Waters. Jules, Bernie. Danny Galuzo. Ken and Kels. Is that right? Khalees. Is that Kells? Did I do two Ls? What did I do?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What did I do?

[James Petregallo]

Jamie Simpson. Katie Reimer. Courtney Watson. Lynn's priest. Vanda with no last name. James Sumason. Jennifer Vertone. Craig with no last name. Kevin Rosenacker. Murphy Parker. Nicole with no last name. Addie McClain. Jane Kendall. Josh Ellenberg. Julia with no last name. Faith Kovacs. Amber Shannon Yvette with no last name. Kim Tinker. Cynthia. Nope. Sydney. Sydney Taylor. Diane Daggs. Sherry Kimball. Chuck with no Last name. Emily McGee. Ainsley McPherson. Jennifer Rush. CCB. SS2. River Devlin. Colin Riley. Martha Penny, Don Walker. Reuben. Robin. Robin with no last name.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hey, Jennifer.

[James Petregallo]

Jeff. Jeff. Almost called Jeff Jones. Jennifer Jones.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Close.

[James Petregallo]

All right. Lachlan Hodge, Jana. English. Ethan Pack. Jolene Hargrave. Jenna Jones. There's Jenna Jones.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's Jenna. She's there. Now, how did I do that? I think you knew you would write it down.

[James Petregallo]

Six words down. Lexi with no last name. Necco. Necro, Gross. Ace. Finch. Marie. Mary. Mary with an I. No last name. Becky Stewart. Heath. Roberson. Roberson. Roberson. Robert. There's no T. Cat, Newber, Gene or GM Fontaine. Jessica with no last name. Lydia Colness. Ellie. Eileen with no last name. Kelsey. Kelsey. Maybe it's Kelsey. Martin. Michael. Martin. Matt. Sona. Chevily. What? Matt Sanashville. Michael. That's a crazy last name. Sarah King. Nikki with no last name. Wyatt Lopez. Vivek. Dan to car. Jada Brown. Janelle with no last name. Rachel Fleming. Michael Genara. What? Dr. Alfred Moore Jr. Good for you, Dr. Alfred.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hey.

[James Petregallo]

Amy with no last name. J.D. pie. Sk. M.F. sarah F. Hanu. Ha Visto. Lindsay Karts. Lisa Dutzman. Tacy. Not Tracy. Tacy with no last name. F. Cuff. Miranda with no last name. Leo Bryan. Rory Karth. Clever girl. Jp Sherry with no last name. Or Cherry Kelly with no last name. Kimberly S. Cammie Smith. Corey Aldridge. Kelly with no last name. SDK Kelly Cottle. Kevin McAndrew. Sasha with no last name. Stacy Rebman. Kathy Phipps Heights with no last name. Terrace Weber. ATF Special Agent Gabe Itches. Okay, Gabe. Gay bitches. James.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes, I think. I think I gleaned that from you.

[James Petregallo]

I don't understand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't get it either, Lucius.

[James Petregallo]

Will Nassau, Maggie Salem, Jenny Cook, Courtney Ploucher. Crystal McGill. They fucking wanted it. Monica Rosen, Jen Arnott, Ashley Rose, Nikki Enix. Heather Allen, Harris Potts. But Ashley Rose. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Are not. R2 are not.

[James Petregallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Arguing.

[James Petregallo]

Harris, Potts, David Michael. Ellen Whaler. S. Clark. Lizzie Mc Matt. Matthew Hattersley. Eric Salivore. Salover. Rebecca o' Connor. Shanna R. Michael Peck. The Pecker. Princilla. Tiffany. The Pecker. It's the Pecker. Michael Pack. Tiffany Ice. Misty Johnson. Sarah Imperato. Matthew Johnston. Kevin Brown. Marianne D' Antonio. Scout Master Denny. Obviously. Jesse Piper. Heather McGarra. You know these people. Hope Gado. Chris Oliver. Elise Palmer. Rachel Chiramata.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Taro.

[James Petregallo]

What is this? Shira Matero.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. Nice. That sounds longer than mine.

[James Petregallo]

Paul Lopez. Carissa Comer. Connie. Obviously with no last name. Brad. They don't even have to give a last name. You know who they are. J. Allen Foster. Jacob Kennedy. Douglas Post. Jamie Anderson. Stephen Braley. Sam Cooke. Obviously. TARA C. Samantha McCormick. Lisa Howard. Melissa Karash. Maximilian. Sam Kramen. Megan Stroud. Darnell Cox, Jamie Kakash, Karen with a Y. Kevin with no last name. Kat Meow. Cameron Rance, Echo Lamb. Amanda Smith, Sarah Harris. What about Claire Elliott? Thank you guys so much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Thank you so much, everybody. You wonderful sons of bitches. Honestly, thank you for what you do for us. And by the way, we're still working on the ad free option. So give us another minute on that. We're figuring it out. Do that. You want to follow us on social media? Very easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com drop down menus. Take you anywhere you want to go. Keep coming back and seeing us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.

[James Petregallo]

Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in. You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T Mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16.16Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old phone. Up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it. There's always a trade in. Not right now. @ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for Karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[James Petregallo]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let me check this pocket.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm a mom.

[James Petregallo]

Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our first best iPhone offer ever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Switch to T Mobile.

[James Petregallo]

Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Apple intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your Phone up.

[James Petregallo]

To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying.

[James Petregallo]

Ported for well qualified plus tax and 10 connection charge.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Payout via virtual prepaid card.

[James Petregallo]

Allow 15 days credits and balance due.

[Jimmy Wissman]

If you pay off earlier. Cancel ct mobile.com Marketing is hard, but.

[James Petregallo]

I'll tell you a little secret.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.