Serial Killer Search - Poteau, Oklahoma

Summary

Podcast Summary

Small Town Murder | Serial Killer Search - Poteau, Oklahoma

Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Release Date: October 23, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Small Town Murder delves into a gruesome crime spree that rocked the small town of Poteau, Oklahoma, in 1984. The hosts, James and Jimmie, combine copious research, sharp wit, and their signature comedic banter to explore the tragic story of Gary Allen Walker—a man with a deeply troubled upbringing whose horrifying crimes led to a multi-state murder investigation. The episode navigates everything from small-town reviews and balloon festivals to one of Oklahoma’s most disturbing serial killer cases, ending with reflections on justice, the mental health system, and the legacy of Walker’s violence.

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Important Timestamps

• 05:03 - Show disclaimer and core philosophy
• 19:31 - Overview of crime rates in Poteau, Oklahoma
• 20:25 - Start of the murder case: Discovery of Eddie Cash’s body
• 43:09 - Introduction of perpetrator: Gary Allen Walker’s background
• 73:40 - Walker’s confession details begin
• 114:24 - Arrest and aftermath
• 124:00 - Trial, defense, and subsequent convictions
• 173:58 - Execution and episode wrap-up

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Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: Poteau, Oklahoma

• The episode kicks off with a comedic dive into Poteau’s local history, odd town reviews, and quirky real estate listings.
• James & Jimmie highlight the town’s high property and violent crime rates which set the stage for the brutal events to come.

“Crime rate in this town ... is almost three times the national average. Property crime is almost three times the national average. ... There isn’t even 9,000 people here. It’s crazy.”
— James Pietragallo (19:31)

2. The First Crime: Eddie Cash

• May 8, 1984: Priscilla Crane, after failed attempts to reach her father (Eddie Cash), visits his home and finds a bloodbath.
• Eddie had been beaten to death with a brick and strangled with a vacuum cleaner cord. His shoes and van were stolen.
• There was no forced entry and Eddie was known for helping strangers (including picking up hitchhikers).

3. The Crime Spree: Multiple Victims

• 37-year-old Margaret Ann Bell Lydick disappears after encountering a stranger at Henry’s Bar.
• Over the next few weeks, several more women (Jane K. Hilburn, Janet D. Jewell, and Valerie Shaw Hartzell—a local media personality) go missing or are found murdered, pointing to a serial spree.
• The killer’s method includes abduction, rape, strangulation, and dumping bodies across state lines.
• The hosts emphasize the randomness and barbarity:

“He would just pick up people and, you never knew what he was gonna do ... It might be the most brutal, crazy rape and murder. It might be, ‘You give me a ride, then I give you gas money and leave.’”
— James Pietragallo (105:14)

4. Investigation Breakthrough

• The major break: a pawned anti-theft “club” from Valerie’s vehicle, registered to her and pawned by Gary Walker using his real name and ID.
• Walker’s fingerprints are found across multiple crime scenes and vehicles.
• Story of law enforcement collaboration—and historical failures—in tracking serial criminals across state/jurisdiction lines.

5. Profiling Gary Allen Walker

• In-depth examination of his traumatic childhood: severe physical abuse, sexual molestation by his mother, stays in psychiatric institutions, and repeated brushes with the law.
• Diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, schizophrenia, and subjected to electroconvulsive therapy.
• History of criminal behavior but no prior murder convictions until the spree.
• Hosts’ commentary reflects on the “monster recipe” shaping Walker’s psyche.

“This makes a monster... If you wanted to make monster soup, this is what you would put in the pot. ... Not an excuse ... but you gotta fix it.”
— James Pietragallo (50:47, 127:44)

6. Walker’s Confession and Motives

• Upon arrest, Walker gives a full, chilling confession—detailing his crimes and often expressing confusion as to his own motives.
• The randomness of his choices; at times, he lets victims go if they are “nice,” at others, he commits heinous acts for trivial reasons.
• Memorable quote:

“I know right from wrong, but I don’t know why I killed all these people. Let me tell you what happened, okay?”
— Gary Walker (73:53)

• He admits to killing, raping, kidnapping, and robbing multiple victims, often in horrifying detail and with an eerie lack of remorse.
• In some cases, he mutilates and dumps bodies, then returns with authorities to point out their locations.

7. Legal Proceedings and Appeals

• Multiple convictions for murder, rape, kidnapping, etc., resulting in a death sentence, several life sentences without parole, and hundreds of additional years.
• Defense efforts focus on his mental illness and insanity; prosecution leans on the brutality, premeditation, and confession tapes.
• Legal twisting: at one point, a conviction is overturned due to violation of Walker’s right to counsel; he is retried and again found guilty.
• Discussion of the challenges in the mental health system and the limits of criminal justice in predicting/containing potential future offenders.

8. Execution and Aftermath

• Walker’s final meal: three cheeseburgers, sliced tomatoes with extra salt, French fries, and a strawberry malt.
• His last words, expressing regret and asking the victims’ families to let go of their hate with his passing:

“I hope that when I go that the hate that you have ... that you would let that go with me.”
— Gary Walker, final statement (176:33)

• Executed by lethal injection, January 13, 2000.
• Despite the scale of the crimes, Walker remains relatively unknown in true crime history, a fact the hosts remark on in closing.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Because we’re assholes, but we’re not scumbags.” — James, on why they never make fun of the victims (05:04)
• “He whipped me so long I couldn’t scream no more and I couldn’t get up.” — Walker, on his stepfather’s abuse (47:35)
• “Put a little love in your life, what are we talking about?” — James, sarcastically replying to a friend’s notion Walker just needed love (128:18)
• “I just want to plead guilty when they take me to be arraigned. I just wanna plead guilty. I don’t care, just as long as they don’t kill me.” — Walker, after his arrest (119:42)
• “You sir, may fuck off...death penalty.” — James, summing up the sentencing (136:28)

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Tone & Style

James and Jimmie expertly balance the grim reality of Walker’s crimes with their brutal, irreverent comedy. Their tone remains respectful to the victims and their families while injecting darkly funny commentary on the absurdity of the justice system, mental health institutions, and small-town quirks. The episode’s narrative pacing allows for deep dives into psychological and legal context as well as the hosts’ trademark asides and riffs.

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Final Thoughts

This episode stands out for its careful research, thorough timeline, and frank exploration of both systemic failure and evil. The story of Gary Allen Walker is presented as a cautionary tale about the limits of diagnosis, the unpredictability of violence, and the sobering reality that sometimes, monsters are indeed made—not born.

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For further episodes, ticket info, and bonus content:
shutupandgivememurder.com

Support on Patreon:
patreon.com/crimeinsports

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This summary covers all essential elements, contextualizes memorable quotes, and is structured for both engagement and comprehensive understanding. For anyone who missed the episode, it provides a clear, in-depth roadmap of this terrifying and tragic serial killer case.

Transcript

[James Pietragallo]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about a new series from Prime Video, Lazarus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Harlan Coben's Lazarus.

[James Pietragallo]

You know it. Best selling mystery writer Harlan Coban, excellent writer, returns to television with a twisted tale of lies, murder and long buried family secrets. Excellent stuff. Harlan Coban has like 37 books and they're all real page turners where everything comes together at the end. He's excellent. And Harlan Coben's Last Lazarus stars Sam Claflin and Bill Nye and can only be seen on Prime Video. This looks cool. Seen the trailer? It looks like. And from what I've heard too, from the actors and interviews, a lot of carnage going on here, right? You want some blood? This is the place to do it. I'm telling you, binge it. Have a good time. It comes out October 22nd. Watch Harlan Coben's Lazarus now streaming on Prime Video.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This week in Poto, Oklahoma, small pieces of evidence lead detectives to believe they have a serial killer on their hands after a string of bodies, including that of a popular, popular local media personality. But what they find is worse than anyone could have thought. Welcome to small Town Murder. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Small Town murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yay.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Pietragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely bonkers edition of Small Timer. This is a lot today, boy. Man, this is one bad, very, very bad person. We'll talk all about it here. Serial killer time. So before we get to that though, we must say head over to shut upandgivemerder.com you can get your tickets for the virtual live show October 30, the day before Halloween. Just like a regular live show. Only difference is you can watch it anywhere in the world. With Internet, we'll have the same thing. The screen, the pictures. We're gonna dress in costumes, look like idiots. It's gonna be a really good time. And it's available for two weeks after that too, so you can buy it ahead of time. Watch it a whole bunch of times. You can buy it during that two week period. Anytime after it goes two weeks, you can get that. That's shutupandgivemerder.com also get your tickets for Philly because there's a couple tickets left in Philly, I found out, so. Oh, is there only a few? But they're there, so very few. So if you want them, get them right now for Philly in December, do that. And definitely also listen to our other two shows, Crime in sports. Very fun. Multi part series on Billy Martin at this point. Old timey fighting guy there. Well, he's a baseball player, but he fights more than a boxer. He has more fights than a professional boxer. And then also check out your stupid opinions, which is just hilarious. We're going to talk about reviews from everywhere and they're so fun. Then get yourself Patreon, you need it. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus materials. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get it all. Hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription to binge on. Then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder. And you get it all my friends get it all. This week, what you're gonna get for crime and sports, we are gonna talk about Deshaun Watson and all the accusations against him. He's a quarterback who's had just a plethora of horrible accusations against him. There's so many, it's disturbing. And then for small town murder, it's Internet salad time. All right, we are gonna go around the Internet and see what's going on in the world. Everything except politics because nobody wants to hear that from us. So we're gonna talk about all that stuff. We'll talk about that comedy festival that everybody kept talking about and kept asking us about too. We'll talk about all that good stuff there. Patreon.com and in addition to that, you get all of our shows, Crime and sports, your stupid opinions and small town murder all ad free with your Patreon. All of it ad free. And then on top of that, you also get a shout out at the end of the show too. It's all we can give you, everybody. Patreon.com CrimeInSports that said, Disclaimer time. Hey everybody, this is a comedy show. It's also a murder show. Nothing is embellished to make the things funnier or anything like that. That's the point of the show is some of this stuff is so crazy that it doesn't need anything. I mean, we Couldn't write these stories week after week. That'd be crazy. So every last detail is true and they're insane. And what we don't do though here is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why is that, James?

[James Pietragallo]

Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. Very simple way to be. That's it there. So if that sounds good to you. Oh, you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together. Maybe we're not for you, but I think you should give it a shot. I think maybe we are. Either way, no complaining later. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. What do you say here, let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we? We're going to Poteau, Oklahoma. And man, it was an interesting one trying to find the pronunciation on this town. P O T E, A U is Poteau. Sure, sounds good. Poto, Oklahoma. It's in eastern Oklahoma. It's about three hours to Oklahoma City. So it's nowhere near there. Oklahoma City's kind of in the middle of the state. It's about four hours to Dallas if you go down south a little bit. And then about two hours to Allen, Oklahoma, which is our last Oklahoma episode. That was the Bigfoot murder conspiracy. You remember that? Where he said he was is killing his friend to send a message to the big feet that were that were watching him in the distance. So interesting. This is in Lafleur county area codes 539-918. History. Little bit of history here. During the 1700s, the late 1700s, a large French outpost was at Fort Smith. Like Arkansas, which is near there. It was called Bell Point. And further up the Poteau river was a secondary post at the base of Canavel Mountain. So the river was called the Post river. And then they ended up calling it the Poteau River. And the outpost, they just called it Post or Poto. That was it. Poto is a French word meaning post.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Post.

[James Pietragallo]

There you go. That's how this happened. Not too complicated. The Poteau Chamber of Commerce wrote that the community was founded in 1885 as just a few houses and Bud Tate's general store.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, Bud Tate.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, Bud Tate's in on this here. At the time of its founding, it was in a different county which was part of the Choctaw Nation. It was incorporated as a Town in the Indian territory by the federal government in 1898. And once Oklahoma became a state, the governor declared Poto as quote, a city of the first class. Yeah, there we go. First class city, everybody. Let's find out what people think and if they think it's first class. With some reviews here. Here is five stars. It's a great place. Entertainment is cheap. What does that mean? I don't even know what that means.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know.

[James Pietragallo]

Do they mean like ladies on the street? I don't understand what a. Cheap. Drinks at the bar. I don't know what it could. That's weird.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything's, I guess, cheap.

[James Pietragallo]

It's all cheap.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything you want to do for fun.

[James Pietragallo]

This next sentence is odd. It's a big town with a small town feel to it. No, it's not a very big town. By the way. It's easy to get from one place to another quick and safely as well. And has lots of different places to eat as well. Whatever it is that you are in the mood for. Okay. The college life is easy as well. Everyone is so respectful and down to earth. I hope this person isn't in college because they didn't. No punctuation for a long time. And they say as well three times in every sentence. So they need some sort of. Take English Miss North Carolina.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That said as well too. Yeah, over and over and over again.

[James Pietragallo]

Same thing. Same thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

South Carolina.

[James Pietragallo]

I think one of those. Yeah. Three stars. Poto is a decent town. That could develop more. Most definitely. It is getting a Whataburger soon. Should be done any day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shit.

[James Pietragallo]

It's all done. Everybody. That's the finish.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Any day now. Mustard, cheeseburgers. Let's go.

[James Pietragallo]

The cherry on top is always a what? A burger. That's the cherry on top of the town. It's all finished then that's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's when you know you're a Met. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Put the old bow on it. Everybody. Three stars. I live in a considerably nice neighborhood, so I haven't had very many issues. I just wish the sewer lines didn't bust almost once a month. Holy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The what?

[James Pietragallo]

The sewer lines apparently are bursting on a monthly basis.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't understand how many.

[James Pietragallo]

What are you doing in this town?

[Jimmy Whisman]

We've been to so many giants. I've never seen a sewer line bus.

[James Pietragallo]

Never. Well, how much steak are you eating? You're busting the sewer lines. I guess they like beef in Oklahoma. But guys, mix a salad in once in a while.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You do not need a water burger.

[James Pietragallo]

You are. Yeah, you're breaking the sewage with this. Good Lord. One star. I had a very bad experience with this city. It contains a horrible beast. Whoa. Not even beast. Something worse. But he is named Bladen and he was my horrible ex. AKA the worst mistake I've ever made. He's a beast.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She had a boyfriend named Bladen.

[James Pietragallo]

Bladen, I think you asked for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We have exhausted the Aiden suffix. Also, if we're down to Bladen and.

[James Pietragallo]

This man's in his. He's not even like a seven year old. This is an adult man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a 20 year old man at least.

[James Pietragallo]

Laden. Wow. Worst mistake I've ever made. And he is being contained there with his horrible personality.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Being contained in like a cage.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah. It's his cave. With a big rock pushed in front of him. The taxpayers keep him at bay. He likes siege. So that kind of makes sense why he's so horrible. And it looks like he ran into a moving pile of cutting scissors to frame his haircut, then tried to me say it was good. But then I publicly made fun of him because he blocked me and said I was crazy. And I quote, always run back to him. He was only half right. So I don't care because he's blocked for good now. Mostly because I don't have a phone. Oopsies. What the hell are you talking. What does that have to do with this town?

[Jimmy Whisman]

She took out her relationship woes on this town.

[James Pietragallo]

On niche. On a niche town review. That's insane.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Amazing.

[James Pietragallo]

That is wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Way to go, Blade. And you destroyed this woman.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. That's what Facebook is for, you know what I mean? To complain about this type of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

100%.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay? People in this town, 8741. So not a huge town. Not a tiny, tiny town, but just a little town.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Very small.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. More men than women. Here it's 50.6% men, which is odd for a town with people, you know, with more than a few hundred people in it. Median age here is 35. There's a college nearby, so that'll lower the median age every time. Only 42 and a half percent married. Again, you get the college kids. They're not really married that often. 20% are single with children. Race in this town, 69.5% white, 1.8% black, 8.2% Native American, which is very high in terms of. Compared to other places. And this used to be. This was the Choctaw Nation, I mean, before this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So a whole bunch of natives there. That's great.

[James Pietragallo]

For sure. 14.1% Hispanic here, religion, 57.6% religious here, which is well above the national average. And the one that takes the cake is Baptist. 38, 38%. As we know. Baptists are the Catholics of the plains, I guess. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Kind of the south, isn't it? I mean, it's south of that line, right?

[James Pietragallo]

I guess. But that's the plains out there. Slightly high unemployment. A lot of the reviews said there aren't a lot of jobs around here. It's hard to find jobs. There's not a lot of big cities around here to really commute to, so it's kind of tough. Median household income here is 4,40,711, which is well below the national average of 69,000. Cost of living overall, 100 is average in the whole country. Here it is 77, so cheaper. And the housing is the lowest thing here the housing is. Median home cost $146,000, which is very low compared to the rest of the country.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can do it here.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, it's 338 in the rest of the country. So not too shabby. And if we've convinced you that this is the only place for you, you need to be in Poto, Oklahoma. We have. You don't have an ex there. You're running from another town where your ex lives. We have for you the Poto, Oklahoma real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for $770, which is. Which is extremely way below the national average. Usually almost 1300. House number one. I don't even know if it's livable at this point. It looks like it's seen better days. Two bedroom, two bath, technically. T bowl for all your b holes there. 1365 square feet. It's on a half an acre. And you can see from the front there, it looks like it's seen some better days.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, not good. Weird color.

[James Pietragallo]

This is the end. I don't know what this is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

It's got a dirt. There's a hanger hanging from the beams for some reason. I'm not sure. 59,000 bucks for that. So not very much there. Next up, three bedroom, one bath, 2035 square feet. The house. Not again. Seen better days. You can see it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, it wouldn't take much to get it in pretty good shape.

[James Pietragallo]

No, the inside, though, not that great. But outside there's like a pile of debris with just a tire in it, which is bad. It's a bad sign.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The purchaser needs to have a tractor.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And also a trampoline. Next to the dirt next to your tire pile, which is a bad sign. Also. Six acres. This is, though.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That is wonderful. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

$92,000. Not bad. A 2,000 square foot house on six acres. Six acres for 90 grand. Wow. You should be able to make that work, I would imagine. Figure next up is a very blue house. Four bedroom, four bath, t bowl for all your B holes. Everybody. 2784 square feet on a two and a half acre lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

It's the bluest house you've ever seen. The whole house is blue. The roof is blue. It's blue metal. So I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything's blue and then it's got some white accent.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. A lot of porch there. It's blue. 475,000 bucks for that though.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How many acres with that?

[James Pietragallo]

One? Two and a half acres. 27 square foot. And the house is like nice inside. It's up to date and all that kind of thing. So not too bad there. Now, things to do in this town. Let's find out what we have. The only thing going on is the Poto Balloon Fest.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh yeah. We know that's going to happen here. Get yourself a balloon fest. Go to the Balloon Fest. Fun times. Carnival night. Armband only. $25. That's for Thursday, Friday the 7th, or Friday the 17th of October. You had the. What is that mean? Machine? Monster truck rides.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

That's fun. Fuck yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Rides.

[James Pietragallo]

Rides. Yeah. Not touching them. Rides. Take me around. Let's do this. From 12 to 6. The what? The Cockrills. Country critters. C O C K R I L L S One word. Cockrills. I don't either. Carnival opens at one. Live music begins. Then also the Tulsa Tyrants. Knights in fighting armor. People from Tulsa who pretend to be knights. Helicopter rides begin. There's going to be tragedy there. I have a feeling. No. Kansas City Barbecue Cook off. We have. That's pretty cool. Tethered balloon rides later on in the day. So earlier you can go up all the way you want in the balloon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And then you can do all kinds of. All kinds of air travel. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Then we're just going to tether it from then on here. Saturday we have the Kansas City Barbecue Championship Cook off, which. That sounds wonderful. I would love that. That sounds great. I'll judge a championship cook off any day of the week. That's good. Shit. More helicopter rides. Little Miss and Mr. Balloon Fest pageant. Do we need this?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's enough.

[James Pietragallo]

It's enough. It's a balloon. It's a balloon fest. We don't need to have done them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We know.

[James Pietragallo]

We know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Live music again. Southwest Aerosports paragliding show. Jesus, they are looking for tragedy here. Anything else you want to put in here?

[Jimmy Whisman]

All kinds of rudimentary air travel things.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. This is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stop doing this.

[James Pietragallo]

This is terrifying. What are you doing? What else are you going to have here? A demolition derby with, like, babies driving, just the most dangerous shit you can think of. Carnivals, all that shit. Then at dark, a quote, super huge fireworks finale.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Super huge.

[James Pietragallo]

Super huge is in all capital letters too. Super huge. Huge. Then there's also some sort of champions thing here for hot air ballooning. I don't know what this is all about. It's very weird. But first place wins $400.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So first place ballooner, I guess.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. I don't know. This is for the Kansas City Barbecue competition.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, great.

[James Pietragallo]

$400 for first place. 350 for second. 300 for third, 250 for fourth and 200 for fifth place.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're gonna cook $500 worth of meat and the out money for winning.

[James Pietragallo]

That's right. You're gonna spend so much on dragging your shit there and all the meat and everything else. The Kansas City Barbecue Society Oklahoma State Championship barbecue Competition. This is for the state title. Everybody get your there. And so weekend of hot air balloons, delicious barbecue and family fun. Okay, crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, is almost three times the national average. Property crime is what, three. Three times property crime is almost three times the national average. What the hell is going on in this town?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is that?

[James Pietragallo]

And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is slightly above average, too. So what is happening in this town?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's dangerous.

[James Pietragallo]

There isn't even 9,000 people here. It's crazy. So, Oklahoma, calm it down. Oklahoma. That said, let's talk about some murder, because this is a deep one here. So, okay, let's start out May 8, 1984. All right, here we go. Priscilla Crane. Okay. Is a woman here. She's calling her father. Father's about 63 years old. Father's name is Eddie. I'm just trying to call him. He missed his morning coffee. He was supposed to come over for morning coffee this day and didn't. So normally he's pretty dependable with that kind of stuff. He comes over, sees the grandkids, say, 63. Yeah, he's like 63. Comes over, sees the grandkids, has some coffee.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I like it.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Yeah. He's had quite the Life we'll talk about here too. So, yeah, his wife had died a few years earlier, so, you know, he's lonely too, so he likes to come out and do that sort of thing. You'll find out that he's lonely, he's bored alone. And his daughter Priscilla didn't really like him living alone either. Thought he was. She was just worried about him, you know, thought he was lonely and sad. So she tries to call her dad here and the phone rang and rang and rang and rang. She calls a second time and the phone rang, busy after ringing a few rings. So it rang a few rings and then a busy signal came on, which I don't even know how that works.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I guess you pick it up and hang it up and then you have it off the hook.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm not sure. But if it was off the hook, then it's. I don't know. Yeah, I guess you'd have to pick it up, hang it up, put it off the hook. I don't know. But then that would end your phone call. If they picked it up and hung it up, you wouldn't hear.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You'd think so, but I don't know, sometimes the phone lines get fucking goofy, right?

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know. I have no idea. And I haven't used a landline and in so long. So long. I have no idea. So after these calls go unanswered, she said, hey, let me just go over there and see what he's up to, have a look. So she came in and she comes up to the house. His car's not in the driveway, which is interesting. But nothing looks amiss on the outside of the house. The door is locked. She unlocks the door and goes in and she walks into the living room and just sees ceiling to floor, blood. I mean, it is bloodbath, spatter everywhere. Looks like somebody exploded in there. She freaked out, sees her father on the floor as well and calls 91 1. So the cops come and they say, you know who, who do you know who could have done this to your dad? Who? He has enemies. And she said, doesn't have any enemies. He's a normal guy. Everybody likes my dad. I don't get it. Yeah, doesn't make sense at all. She said, I saw my dad lying in a pool of blood and I don't know. The cops also find a blood covered brick on the coffee table near his body.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A brick?

[James Pietragallo]

A brick, absolutely. Now this is Eddie. Oliver Cash is her dad. That's his name, which is kind of a cool name. Eddie Cash.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's not bad. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So. Yeah, it's sad, I guess. She said this is a Monday morning. She had last seen him alive on Sunday. He came for Sunday dinner and did all of that. He's fully clothed except for shoes. He has no shoes on his 1976 Dodge van and his shoes were stolen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shoes.

[James Pietragallo]

That's shoes. Shoes and van stolen. So he has no known enemies. They talk to all the neighbors. The neighbors are. It's a quiet neighborhood. They're shocked that this guy who didn't do anything to anybody got obviously beaten with a brick to death in his house. That seems like a lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that what it is?

[James Pietragallo]

So two Broken Arrow police detectives, Detective Homer Miller and of course Detective Rick Ross. Got to have him in the mix.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Yeah. They said, quote, we walked in the door and we found the body lying in front of the coffee table. There was a lot of blood on the red carpet. The victim had a vacuum cleaner cord wrapped around his neck, tied in a knot. Still attached to the vacuum, by the way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Oh my God. So they didn't cut it off. The. It's. Oh man.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Drug of. Imagine fucking dragging a Dyson behind you while you try to strangle somebody. So they take the blood spattered brick found on the coffee table as obvious evidence here. They said they found no evidence of forced entry into the house. They said that the death, you know, was possibly killed. The best they could think is maybe he interrupted a burglary. That's all they can imagine here. So while they're investigating this whole thing and we'll find out a little more here. Eddie Oliver Cash was born in 1921. He's lived in Broken Arrow. He's described as a gentle, kind hearted rancher and humanitarian by his friends. He was drafted into World War II when he was 20.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

Sent to the front lines. Yeah. A World War II hospital card shows him wounded and sent home. So he's wounded in World War II.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And then came home after that.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a Purple Heart guy. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Which is tough. Yeah, you're wounded in battle. He meets a wife here named Ernie is her name Ernie Foster and they get married. They have two children together including Priscilla here that we talked about. I guess. His sisters died in 1972 and 1974. That made him real sad. And then in 1981 his wife died as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He has seen a lot of death in his life.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, he's pretty lonely. He lives alone in a single story home. He's known for helping strangers and always offering Rides to hitchhikers. He's lonely.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I like that first part. That second part I'm not so keen on.

[James Pietragallo]

Nope. He's lonely and he likes the company.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You know, and we find out that while the day before, while en route to visit relatives, he picked up a hitchhiker in Broken Arrow, that we know. He said he was on his way from Broken Arrow to Owasso. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. On the afternoon of May 7, he saw a man hitchhiking. And he pulled over to see if he needed a ride. And the man was dressed in jeans with a shirt and dirty blonde hair. And he dropped the man off in Owasso. That was the last time he saw him. So that doesn't make. Doesn't seem like. Doesn't seem like there'd be a real connection there. He continued along the way to visit a sick relative, and that was that. So that's. That's all they know, that he picked up a hitchhiker but dropped him off. So because he told his family, I picked the guy up and dropped him off all the way the hell over there. So the forensic pathologist said that Eddie had suffered at least five blows to the head with the brick, presumably with the brick, and was strangled with a vacuum cleaner cord as well. Now, that is not great. Now that's May 7th. That same day, a family reports a woman missing. This is Margaret Ann Bell Lydick. L Y D I C K. She's 37 years old. She's described as youthful looking for 37, and brunette and quote, pixie. Ish. I guess that means small, I suppose.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I imagine. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. She lived with her family, had a nice suburban home. She. This particular day, she had stopped for drinks at Henry's Bar, which is a kind of a local bar in Poto that all the locals hang out at. Everybody knows your name type of joint near the Arkansas border. It's a local bar. Basically. Nobody else would know it's there or stop there. Somebody saw her that night, described her as wearing tight slacks that, quote, looked like they'd been put on with a spray gun.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Pietragallo]

Very tight. Yeah. She met a stranger at the bar, a man, and struck up a conversation with him. Because this is the type of bar where if there's a stranger, everybody notices him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's weird. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You know, it's just. Who's that guy?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a weird guy.

[James Pietragallo]

Now they start talking. The bar closes around midnight, which is earlier than it normally closes. I guess it was slow and they decided to close. So Margaret offers the stranger she's been talking to a ride in her white Cadillac. I guess he's staying at a nearby motel. He told her he's a truck driver. That's trucks on the fritz. So he's just waiting for it to get fixed. And so she has a white Cadillac and they said, hey. She said, I'll give you a ride. And then she disappears because the next day her family reports are missing. She didn't return home that night. She didn't show up for work at all. The initial police response is not great to this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Pietragallo]

First of all, they don't even put it in the same category with Eddie Cash. That looks like a burglary thing that went wrong. And this is a younger woman. The victims aren't the same. Nothing makes any sense. So they said that there was vague rumors that she would just disappear for days and then suddenly show up with little explanation. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about something delicious. Omaha steaks. Omaha steaks.com oh my God. I love them. Omaha steaks. They're juicy, they're tender, they're delicious. It's fall, it's perfect. Time to put some steaks out on the grill. You can tailgate. It's perfect for a busy night or whatever you want. It's just so good. They have handcrafted steaks to delicious fall favorites. Omaha delivers the world's best steak experience. And we can, we can definitely stand by that. They are delicious. They have everything from USDA certified tender steaks, juicy burgers, cozy and convenient meals. Then they got like tailgating stuff, really good, like chicken wings, smash burgers and big deli style franks, those big old hot dogs that are delicious and they're really good. And now during their semi annual sale, you can get 50% off, 50% off site wide at Omaha steaks.com plus our listeners get an extra $35 off of that with promo code small town at checkout. Unbelievable. I love the Omaha steaks. It's the best. You get that box and you just know this is some goodness. Some dinners are in here. Some stuff I don't have to worry about because I know I can make this and it's going to be delicious.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All the way to dessert. I'm super excited about that cinnamon apple tortel every time.

[James Pietragallo]

So. Oh my God, that's so good. It's delicious stuff, I'm telling you right now. And Omaha steaks, it's just amazing. They offer unrivaled quality and variety. And every bite is backed by their 100% guarantee. You could get grass fed, grain fed beef, the marbling on it. That's what you want. That's what it is. That's what the steakhouses want. That's what you want because that's where the flavor comes from. Since 1917, it's a family owned company. They have it all, from desserts to seafood. Chicken, pork, steak. It's the best. Bring home the legendary flavor and everyday convenience of Omaha Steak. Visit OmahaSteaks.com for 50% off site wide during their semi annual sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code SMALL TOWN at checkout. That's 50% [e-mail] and an extra $35 off with promo code small town at checkout. Terms apply C site for details.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about a new series from Prime Video. Lazarus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Harlan Coben's Lazarus.

[James Pietragallo]

You know it. Best selling mystery writer Harlan Coben, excellent writer, returns to television with a twisted tale of lies, murder and long buried family secrets. Excellent stuff. Harlan COBEN has like 37 books and they're all real page turners where everything comes together at the end. He's excellent. And Harlan Coben's Lazarus stars Sam Claflin and Bill Nye and can only be seen on Prime Video. This looks cool. Seen the trailer? It looks like. And from what I've heard too from the actors and interviews, a lot of carnage going on here, right? You want some blood? This is the place to do it. I'm telling you, binge it, have a good time. It comes out October 22nd. Watch Harlan Coben's Lazarus now streaming on Prime Video.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

But we don't know really where that came from. But that's the idea the cops got. So we don't know exactly how hard they were looking for at first.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is she unreliable or does she just. That seems to be she has shit to do and doesn't come around. Or does she have nothing to do?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, seems like she would just disappear. But we don't even know if that's true or that's what one person said. Either way, they realize it's serious and they mobilize the sheriff's department. They bring in bloodhounds and everything, I mean dogs. And they do a huge ground search, news bulletins. I mean, they're looking for. She's a pretty woman. We're gonna find her. Or at Least try. So that's how that goes. There's no connection to Eddie Cash the day before. Obviously no reason to link the cases. Different towns, different victim profiles. And they originally thought Margaret took off on her own. So they definitely weren't looking at that then. May 14, 1984, less than a week later, there's a woman named Jane K. Hilburn. She is 35 years old. She's a grocery store clerk and a mother. She is from Veneta, Oklahoma. I don't know if that's how you say it or not. V I, N I T A. No Oklahoma town name seems to be pronounced the way it's spelled.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They are not.

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know one of them. Nope. It's probably Venetia or something. I don't know. So she lived with her kids in a home about nine miles east of town. She was trying to sell her house on her own so she didn't have to pay a real estate agent the commission. So she had a for sale sign in her yard and everything like that. She has a couple of kids. I know at least two. That she has a six year old daughter and an 18 year old son named Doug. And that day her six year old came into the house to discover her dead body.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Found her mom's dead body. Called the 911 cops game. Found her there. Now her car is gone as well. A 1987 black Camaro is also gone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not bad. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

No, those were shit. Those camaros, man. Those 80s sucked. They were terrible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There are headlights.

[James Pietragallo]

No, those aren't the flip up headlights. No, no, no, 87. No, 87 is the square headlights. My dad had an 87.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Iraq? That late?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes, my dad had an 87. IROC.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's that we're always recessed under the hood.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep. Yeah, that's. He had that one. But the Camaros of that era were like really weak and shitty. They weren't good cars at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're putting six cylinders in them.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, they were lousiest. So then, May 23rd, 1984. So this is all within two weeks. Here, Janet D, Jewel. Here. J E W E L L. She's 32 years old, divorced mother. She has three kids. She's from Beggs, Oklahoma. B E G G S. Beggs, Oklahoma. Real energetic, friendly woman. And she was out job hunting in Tulsa. She's also gonna get married. She's planning a wedding for August of 1984. And she's looking to get a job and put some extra money together. Her Dodge Dart ran out of gas in downtown Tulsa. No, that's miserable.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a bad car to run out of gas in.

[James Pietragallo]

Fuck. Yeah. Now her car was found abandoned at the Town west shopping center in Tulsa.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And right away they went to her boyfriend because they thought. But her boyfriend was watching the children at the time, so couldn't have been any. Nothing to do with him. He's just home with kids that aren't his. And now she's gone. So I don't know where they go. So that's May, that's May 23rd. Then May 24th, 1984, the next day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Valerie Shaw Hartzell, 25 years old, she is a very well known local person. She's. Like I said, 25. She's a radio reporter and newscaster for KRAV in Tulsa. So she's very KRAV, very well known locally. Especially back then you knew all the local reporters. This is pre. Social media and pre, you know, a lot of people didn't even have cable in 1984 to get. You knew your local shit. So yeah, she's known as a local celebrity and everybody likes her. She also has three kids, including a baby and lives in Tulsa. She goes to the Town West Shopping center, the same one that the last woman disappeared from in Tulsa. She was going to get diapers for her 22 month old and disappeared into thin air. Not great. Now the white Cadillac, remember the one had a white Cadillac from the bar, offered a ride to the trucker, to the motel. That's found later on the vehicle is traced to Margaret Lydic, but there's not a lot of evidence inside of it. As far as there's no like dead body or anything like that here. So they don't know who they're looking for at this point. It's. They find some evidence but nothing that really. This is in Missouri as well. They find it so it's not even Oklahoma. Back then, agencies did not really talk to each other that much. If you watch anything about any serial killer. Most of the reason they got away with it so much back then was because the agencies didn't communicate. Yeah, they didn't communicate like we did a long crime in sport. Crime and sports on Randall Woodfield, the i5 killer. And that's how they caught him. Was cooperating between department. Same thing with Ted Bundy. They started putting it together through.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And then when he, when he, when he escaped then they started really going, well, we got, we got to talk to some people. Yeah, this is a bad man. We can't just have him out there.

[James Pietragallo]

Before that, everybody was like, no, we're getting the bust. It's ours. Okay, next up, the thing that they find here, the piece of evidence that's going to help them, is that the Valerie Shaw Hartzell, the newscaster there, she, in her truck, had a club on it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Remember the club on the handle on the steering wheel?

[James Pietragallo]

If you're really young, you might not know, but it's this thing that people put across their steering wheels. An anti theft device. Very simple, very popular in the 80s.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Extremely popular, very easy to get around if you have a hacksaw. But.

[James Pietragallo]

If you have a hacksaw, but.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And you don't give a fuck about.

[James Pietragallo]

This car if you're not. If you're not carrying around a hacksaw. Right, right. That might be difficult. So it's an extra step.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes.

[James Pietragallo]

The point was not to stop people, but to make them go, yeah, not that one. Pain in the ass.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a nightmare.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I'll go to the next one. Yeah, I don't feel like hacksawing this thing off the steering wheel. So that's the thing. The club was in the car and someone went and pawned the club. Hers from her car? Yes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How'd they know it was hers? Does it have a serial number?

[James Pietragallo]

Well, that's the funny thing here, which is interesting. They were made with. They're solidly built and they have serial numbers on them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All these clothes, they do have a serial number.

[James Pietragallo]

Each was registered at the time of purchase as well, usually if you registered it. So.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

Valerie had sent in that little card that comes with it to register it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God, so diligent.

[James Pietragallo]

So diligent. So there's one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How many times have you gotten one of those and were like, fuck this and throw it in the trash?

[James Pietragallo]

I've never filled out one of those, even for something big like an appliance. I'm like, well, I don't know. If it dies, it dies. I don't know what to tell you. What am I gonna do if it dies? He dies.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm gonna come calling for help.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, what do I need? What am I gonna do with this thing? So. But she did this, filled out the little card. And Valerie's truck was new that year and got it for the family. She's got multiple kids. And whoever stole this car and her presumably took the club to a pawn shop. And it was a pawn shop that this person visited often as well. So the owner knew who he was and the person who worked there could identify the person easily who brought in the club. And the person who brought the club in used their real name and photo ID as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Pietragallo]

So that's all written down. So they got the police get a call from the pawn shop owner and gives them and says, hey, this guy came in. This is coming back stolen. Because anything that's registered, they have to check it out. It's coming back stolen. And they said, well, do you know who brought it in? And he said, I absolutely do. It's a guy named Gary Walker. I know him real well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm familiar with him.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, know him well. He comes in all the time here. Around the same time. There was an officer in Rogers county talking with a detective from Tulsa trying to talk to each other. And they find some connections as well. They also find fingerprints in the white Cadillac as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

And we'll find fingerprints in other places here. So they know. And this all comes back to this Gary Walker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gary's got the fingerprints, too.

[James Pietragallo]

He's got Gary Walker's fingerprints. Gary Walker selling the club at the pawn shop.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pawn shop.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep. Yeah, Gary Walker is at least a guy we got to talk to here for sure. I mean, he might have just bought some stolen shit off of somebody, we don't know, but he might know who, where that came from. So this is May 25, and this is when they're starting to realize this isn't just one or two cases. They're connecting them to all these other cases. They're like all this shit is happening all with the same kind of M.O. and so this is crazy. And people are really looking for Valerie because she is known, she's like a celebrity in the area. So they're looking for her hardcore. Her family's driving around looking for her search parties. Days pass and she doesn't come back. And she's very dependable, has a job to do and has three kids, so she's not going anywhere. So as this all happens, they're. They're starting to worry that they're not going to find Valerie alive here. So much so that the FBI joins the case on May 31st after they connect everything together. So, yeah, it's still very difficult and they can't find anybody, but they want to find Gary Walker here. Walker here is another thing he did. He. Apparently his fingerprints are all over the Dodge Dart they find in the parking lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And the Dart.

[James Pietragallo]

The Dodge Dart they find in that same parking lot that the Town west shopping center where Valerie was abducted from.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So, yeah, they find that his fingerprints all over the Dodge Dart. So now they're, they're looking for him hardcore. I mean they have the plates come back to another missing woman. Yeah, this Gary Walker's clearly involved in this. Now they get a phone call from a teller at a local Tulsa bank. This is the bank that Valerie Shaw Hartzell banks at all the time. And she described Valerie coming and cashing checks for $500 with two men in the car. Two men. She said Valerie was in the passenger seat, had to reach over the driver to give the check. Okay, now who the hell is Gary Walker?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who the hell, Gareth?

[James Pietragallo]

All right, Gary Allen Walker. And it's a L A N. That's important because his, that's not his born birth name. He's born September 25, 1953 as Gary Allen A L L E N Edwards. That's his original name, Gary Allen Edwards. He thought lose a letter on the Allen, make it a little easier and change it to Walker. So interesting here. Now here is his mom and dad. Little about his family here. His mom and dad are John Henry Edwards and Betty Lambert. Now the problem is he's going to be given the name Walker by one of his string of stepfathers that comes along nice, that's going to kind of adopt him officially. Now Gary's mother was known as very young and from the Arkansas backwoods. So some 16 year old shoeless backwoods girl got married and just to get the hell out of her. Yeah, escaping from God knows what situation at home or whatever. So now John Henry Edwards dad here was a pilot. He flew like small Cessna planes and shit like that, which is interesting not at first, but later on he'll become that. They met sometime. His parents met sometime about early 1950. Betty was a little skinny kid from the backwoods. She was 16 years old and John was 21 and he's tall and handsome and all that. They get married on November 9, 1950. There John Henry worked as a railroad switchman, which is a tough job.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yep, you gotta move those things to the next track.

[James Pietragallo]

That's tough. He had, they had a son before they had Gary. And it was hard work in the 50s being a switchman here. Tulsa's a railway hub with several of the cross country lines connecting in Tulsa. So there's a lot of jobs anyway. So in Tulsa there's a spartan aviation school and that is, they train pilots obviously. And John trained to be a pilot and had his license by the time Gary was born. Born as Gary Allen Edwards. The marriage though is a problem. His parents marriage Is no good. Betty is an alcoholic. Yeah. And also, as we'll find out, likes to find the company of plenty of other men as well. So it's not good here. So John ended up leaving the father, ended up leaving her. So my wife's a mess, she's an alcoholic, she doesn't take care of the kids. I'm gonna leave all the kids here with her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm outta here.

[James Pietragallo]

That's good parenting, John. Great job. Great job. I don't want to see it. I'll know what's happening, but you know, I'm gonna wash my hands of it. So anyway, his mom is a bit friendly, we'll say here. Now, gary was born September 25, 1953. Okay, that's great. We know that much. Now. The problem is apparently she married an Otis Walker who was a farmer from White county on April 27, 1954, and didn't divorce her husband until a month after that. So she was a bigamist for a month. For a month, for about a month here, which is very interesting here. So Gary ends up adopting the name Walker after his stepfather, but it was never officially adopted by Otis. They just started calling him that and that was his name after that. So now really, really weird. Now they said that they didn't know there's some question whether Gary is John Henry's kid or not, or if it's this Otis guy's kid. We're not sure. Oh, like they think Betty might have changed the name to Walker because he's actually Otis's kid. All right, okay. Either way, it doesn't matter. Otis is a terrible father or stepfather. He is an abusive lunatic. Yeah, absolutely abusive. Now they're going to have a bunch of kids together, Otis and Betty. Otis would beat him within an inch of his life. Gary. Oh, threatening him with rifles and shotguns as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why not?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, might as well put a gun on a 10 year old. Gary apparently drew the most, the most anger from his stepfather. He would. That's. He's the guy who's gonna really bring it out of him here. They said that basically there was often times when Betty and one of Gary's sisters and whoever else was there had to like throw themselves on top of him to stop Otis from killing the boy. This is when he's like 9 too. This isn't like a 16 year old going fight back or any of that bullshit, some crazy lunatic shit. This is a child. Basically he was beaten regularly. Gary said, quote, I couldn't figure out why my daddy hated me. I got A lot of whippings. He whipped me so long I couldn't scream no more and I couldn't get up. That's pretty crazy. This dates back to when he's, you know, five, six, seven years old. He was made to collect trash in a suburb of Tulsa as well, to help his dad with his job, apparently. He said he was beaten with a washtub. I don't know how you beat someone with a washtub. You gotta pick that thing up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, I mean, it's a basin, I suppose. And you just.

[James Pietragallo]

What is it like? It's like a WWE move, though. It's gonna make a bong when you hit him with it. It's gonna be a good noise, make.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Him out of several different things.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And people scream ecw, Ecw. Over and over. It's great. He was whipped with a garden hose, beat with pieces of wood, nearly drowned to death in a trash can full of water. And of course, threatened with rifles and shotguns.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Also, he said that he got a small radio for Christmas when he was 10.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Pietragallo]

And he was so excited. It was all he wanted was a little. Some connection to the outside world, you know what I mean? Where you could lose yourself in it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You could just disappear and listen to whatever.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that was the Internet for a kid back then. You know what I mean? I mean, there was stations. You could tune in. Maybe I can get this one from that town. Oh, there's a baseball game on. And whatever it was. So his stepfather was so mad at him that he got something he liked, that he broke it just because he liked it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ah, damn it.

[James Pietragallo]

Made sure to break it. Oh, you happy? How you feel now?

[Jimmy Whisman]

You love that?

[James Pietragallo]

I'll destroy it now if that's not weird enough. His mother, Betty, is fucked up. Um, not only would his mother bring men over and have sex with them in front of him, she also had sex with him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Pietragallo]

With Gary. And Gary's friends as well, when he's 12. We're talking about. She'd like, say, hey, all the 13 year olds in the house. Yeah, run a train on me. Which is, wow, what happened to Betty when she was a kid? You know what I mean? My God. Jesus Christ, that's awful. So not a good upbringing for Gary.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, this is terrible.

[James Pietragallo]

Little education, lot of sexual and physical abuse. He was actually left at one point. Two different injuries from his physical abuse. He had a crushed chest, like he had broken sternum or something. And a crushed testicle at one point when his stepfather beat his testicles.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yikes.

[James Pietragallo]

This makes a Monster is what you just. That's a recipe. If you wanted to make monster soup, this is what you would put in the pot, you know what I mean? Mix it. Oh, mom fucked his friends too. And him. Yeah, mix that in. Sprinkle that in like a bay leaf and stir it around. Now school he did not do well in as you can imagine. He was diagnosed with a personality disorder at 13 with antisocial personality disorder and having poor impulse control as well. He is apparently ends up at the Children's Medical Hospital we'll talk about here at age 14. Gary, by the way, must think like, hey, maybe my real dad will come get me one of these days.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Because that's a fantasy people kids have. You know what I mean? Maybe my real dad will come, he'll say, yeah, even though he left and doesn't care about me, he'll save me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Then when he's 14, John Edwards dies in a plane crash in Washington state. The pilot was dad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So now dad, dad is dead. So now it's just Otis and Betty. Those are his only parents. No one he did him, his brother. Nobody attended the funeral or anything. Never even got to go to his dad's funeral. Not great. So the plane was a light plane that John Henry was flying from Wichita, Kansas to Seattle and he veered off course and crashed on Denny Peak, 50 miles southeast of Seattle in the Cascades. Now Gary was doing so poorly in school, the school recommended an evaluation at the Children's Medical center in Tulsa. That's when the schools, you know, they would say you should go there, you should get him off of our hands, basically. Get him off of our plate if you could.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We would rather not deal with him.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, he can go. So his parents were like, yeah, sure, why not get him the fuck out of our life too. Sounds great. So he spends time there having, getting treatment and stuff like that as well. And he said this is the happiest time of his life. When he was in there, no one was beating him or molesting him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

He said they're actually nice to him in there. They actually like he was like recovering. So they were actually, they treated him like it was a hospital, not some maniacs doing crazy shit to him. And you know, his mother and stepfather are severe alcoholics as well and everything else. He stayed for a three month evaluation and it was recommended to the parents that he should not live in their home anymore.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

He came here all fucked up and he's much better after three months. You guys are the problem. Apparently his parents were like, oh, no, no, no, he's our kid and he's coming home with us. So the state just said, okay, that's fine, and they sent him home. So this is insane here. Now, between the times he was in school, which is always acting out, always getting in trouble in school and everything else, he would just skip school, he'd leave school. When he went to school, he didn't attend all the time. And when he did attend, he'd show up with bruises on top of bruises. And back then in Oklahoma, though, that wasn't. That just meant your daddy disciplined you, right? Literally.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it's not necessarily even just Oklahoma. I'm sure, I'm sure that's in a lot of places.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no, no, that's just the time. That's the time. New York, fucking Oregon, you name the place. It's just how people were back then. A lot of times I just used Oklahoma for the accent because that's where we are. So he starts attempting to run away from home as kids do. They find out through studies that kids that run away and try to stay away, not kids that leave for a day and come back, they're sometimes trying to prove a point, you know what I mean? Or whatever, assert themselves. The kids that run away and actually keep going and try to stay away. 99.9% of the time, those kids have been abused horribly. That's why they do that. There's no other reason a kid leaves home unless it's so bad here, I have to get out of here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

As soon as you spend one night on the street, if you're not abused, you're like, yeah, it's not so bad.

[James Pietragallo]

I'll go back, I'll go back. Exactly. I'm hungry, let's go. We have Hot Pockets in the freezer. I'm going home. So the first two times he was brought back home and beaten just fucking unmercifully for the attempts here. Later he tried again and lived with a cousin, but they would just live in, like, they'd find vacant places and live in them and they didn't like have anywhere to go or anything like that. So it was bad. Now also, when you're out of the house as a kid and living in vacant places, you're committing crimes to stay alive.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

It's not like he went and got like a real nice paying middle management job and settled down like he's like fucking 14. So Gary stole a car here and was ending up. Ended up in juvenile detention. So that's what Happened there. He was sent to the Eastern State Hospital at that time because of his age and his recent stay at the children's hospital, they knew he was fucked up. It was in the records that he was all fucked up. This was a state mental facility that required a judge or a prison warden could say that he should go there and they would send him there, basically. So at age 17, he ran away from this home twice, this place, and the second time successfully and went and joined the army.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How?

[James Pietragallo]

He was 17, they let him do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You could just do that when you're.

[James Pietragallo]

17, I guess he went and joined the army. This was also during Vietnam and shit. So they'd probably take whoever would sign.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Up, you know, take some bodies.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah, we'll fudge your date a little bit. We need the bodies. So he joined the service at 17, but he received a general discharge because of mental problems almost as soon as he was in there. He doesn't do well in a structured environment like that at all. Now by age 19, he's been hospitalized at the Eastern State Mental Hospital eight times by 19, eight times. Diagnosed with severe schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and treated with antipsychotic drugs like lithium. And he is subjected to tons of electroconvulsive therapy as well. Wow, tons of this shit. It's crazy. He received more than 20 electroconvulsive shock treatments during the time he was in there. That's a lot. That is a lot. But yeah, he's diagnosed schizophrenic and all this type of shit. He's got a lot of problems. Now these electroconvulsive treatments during the 70s and 80s were not something they did willy nilly. Think like, oh, you know, someone comes in a little bit weird, they go shock them up. Like it wasn't even like that. It was for extreme cases. That's how bad Gary was. He was not in good shape, so it wasn't used as often as it seems like it was. So it's very, very interesting here now his criminal history. 1970, he's caught driving without a license. Yeah, that's fine. 71, he's a bunch of petty crimes. He and his cousin got together and robbed two houses in Creek County. They were caught. The stolen items they had were clothing, food, a TV and a shotgun. I mean, the last part, yeah, two things to sell, two things to have is what that is. So I mean, they were Both charged with second degree burglary and received a two year deferred sentence. Gary was only 18 at that time. February of 1970, 3. He and an accomplice named Marion Holland were both arraigned for knowingly concealing stolen property there. The stolen property was a saddle and bridles from Charles Ray Gann, who was a horse guy, apparently, which is. Those are pretty traceable, aren't they?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Generally, yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Real specific. They.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Look, there's. I mean, you can just buy a regular ass. Boring one. But most cowboys like a real nice one. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. That's what I mean. They probably have their own. Yeah, they might have their initial. That's what I mean. Some shit like that. So that's different.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Paisleys that are very specific.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Seems like a dumb thing to steal. Very personal. Yeah. October 1973. He is out on bail for the original charges of the saddle when he wanted to go somewhere but didn't have any gas.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

He also doesn't have a car, so gas, money and car. So he ends up at the parking lot of Pretty Water School. It's a public school in Sepulpa, Oklahoma. It was having its monthly PTA meeting. So all the parents were there, all the cars were in the parking lot. So he got to choose what he wanted to. And they're all gassed up. These are suburban people. If you go to PTA meetings, you're probably pretty responsible and have gas in your car. You fill out warranty cards. You send back the club card.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The tags on this vehicle are up to date.

[James Pietragallo]

Everything's up to date. So he stole a car, which was recovered in Providence, Kentucky, and he was arrested and brought to face the charges. So now he obviously stole a car. He went across state lines with it and everything else. But he still only served three months in jail due to the Tulsa Work Release Center. So they put him in that instead. They still think he has a chance, but in 1974, he just walked away from the work Release center. He wanted to go get drunk, and so he walked away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

So February of 1975 is when he's finally captured. That was October 74. So he's gone for months.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They sent him back to prison now saying, you're going to serve the rest of your sentence. And he said the only reason he didn't return to the center was because he'd been drinking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

I didn't want to get in trouble for drinking, so I figured I'd just stay away for four months. That makes sense. Yeah. He said that he took. He said a lot of the guys while they were out, they'd have a couple of drinks or whatever, but he took it to an extreme. And was afraid to go back here. Reporting back to the center intoxicated were reasons to get thrown in prison like you get put away for that. So this also meant that parole was revoked for whoever did that and they would be sent back to finish out in jail. So at this point he's got theft, burglary, narcotics abuse, carrying concealed weapons, prison escapes because he tried to escape from the work release program, in trouble for assaulting inmates as well in there. He's got a lot of problems. He spends a lot of the next few years, 76 through the early 80s in prisons and psychiatric facilities, including the federal medical facility in Springfield, Missouri where he was deemed a paranoid schizophrenic as well. Again, in addition to being deemed that at an earlier age, he's sent to another place for a second degree burglary. He sent to the Oklahoma State Penitentiary at McAllister which is known as Big Mac. Nice place, that prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh yeah. It's known as one of the worst prisons in Oklahoma which is saying something. Oklahoma and like Louisiana are known for having particularly bad prisons and this is one of the worst ones there. Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about a new series from Prime Video, Lazarus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Harlan Coben's Lazarus.

[James Pietragallo]

You know it. Best selling mystery writer Harlan Coben, excellent writer, returns to television with a twisted tale of lies, murder and long buried family secrets. Excellent stuff. Harlan COBEN has like 37 books and they're all real page turners where everything comes together at the end. He's excellent. And Harlan Coben's Lazarus stars Sam Claflin and Bill Nye and can only be seen on Prime Video. This looks cool. Seen the trailer? It looks like. And from what I've heard too from the actors and interviews, a lot of carnage going on here, right? You want some blood? This is the place to do it. I'm telling you. Binge it, have a good time. It comes out October 22nd. Watch Harlan Coben's Lazarus now streaming on Prime Video.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you how to be much safer with SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

SimpliSafe.com S I M P L I safe dot com.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, you know what? I'm telling you, we hear horrible. This is small town murder. The stories we hear are horrendous. So many awful things that could.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And they happen.

[James Pietragallo]

They happen all the time. Listen, we have 600 something episodes of it and a lot of these could have been very Easily prevented by Simplisafe. That's the thing. I'm telling you right now. Yeah. There's so much craziness out there. Can a home security system really call itself security if it's only responding once someone's inside? That's not really security. What good is that? You're being murdered. Who cares at that point? Yeah, come and mop up later. Doesn't matter. You need them to be there beforehand. And that is where simply self. Simply safe. I'm sorry. I love Simplisafe. That is where Simplisafe comes in. There's now a way you can actually stop someone from entering your house. It is SimpleLife. And they're AI powered cameras. They detect threats while they're still outside your home and alert real security agents. They can even talk to them and yell at them. It's amazing. This is a game changer. The agents take action while the intruder is still outside. They confront the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera and that police are on their way. And they even sound a loud siren. You can trigger a spotlight if needed. This is how you stop a crime before it starts. That's real security. Other systems have cameras that let you talk to intruders, but they require you to see the alert yourself. And then you have to do it. Simplisafe takes care of all that for you. Their monitoring agents have your back and talk to intruders even if they aren't there. There's no long term contracts or hidden fees. You can cancel any time. Named best home security system by U.S. news and World Report for five years running. 60 day money back guarantee. So you can try it and see the difference for yourself. I'm telling you, we use Simplisafe. Have it on my house, have it on my office, the studio, everything we have. Is Simplisafe protected Because there's just no better way to do it than the way they do it. I'm sorry. It's just great stuff. And right now, our listeners, you guys can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com Small that's simplisafe.com Small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show. Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[James Pietragallo]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's designed to be the most powerful.

[James Pietragallo]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[James Pietragallo]

Nice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[James Pietragallo]

T Mobile is the best place to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for launch?

[James Pietragallo]

Dude, my work here is done. The 24 month credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credit send and balance due if you pay off earlier, Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256GB $1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Ooklab Speed Test Intelligence data 1H 2025 is it t mobile.com it's not great. Now he, while heading there, he was in the Pittsburgh County Jail first and McAllister, Oklahoma is the county seat for Pittsburgh County, Oklahoma. Now, Walker was waiting for a bed to be free at the Big Mac facility because it's already overcrowded. They had had a big riot there in 73. It was a fucking mess. So 1976, August 2nd, he's at the county jail, which is a piece of shit apparently. So this time he and a few others were invited to a, quote, private party in a cell down the hall from his. Oh, in that cell is a female mental patient who escaped confinement at the asylum and had been picked up and brought to the Pittsburgh County Jail. Instead of being held at the Eastern State Hospital or someplace for mental patients, they just put her in jail. And apparently one of the guards brought her in here so they could all run a train on her. Some poor mental patient. This is disturbing. So she was. They fucking raped her. Four inmates and the jailer all raped her. Prison guard. So a month later, Gary Walker confessed this to a part time guard and photographer by the name of Larry Ingham. He told him about this. So he gave the statement and a lot of the people said that they were basically, they wanted the jailer first because he's obviously trusted. So if he did this, that's the first guy they want in trouble. So they want all the prisoners to tell on him, essentially. So. And that's what they do. He tells on everybody. Gary does. And Larry Ingham, the guy who he told was charged with communicating with a convict without authorization rather than pat him on the back.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

For doing that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They charged him with a crime for extracting this information. The jailer's name was Danny Scott. And apparently he's the guy who invited these guys into the cell and brought this girl in there and put together a little party in his mind. He was suspended the moment the investigation began. And four inmates were also involved here, like we said, Gary Walker, David Kemp, John Warren, and Roy Brown. And they were all charged and held over for bail. But the problem is the girl, the woman who they attacked was sent back to Terrell, Texas, where she was from. And then apparently she was interviewed and never was found again. Then she disappeared. They couldn't find her again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

So they had to dismiss all the charges against everybody because they have no witnesses or anything like that. They don't have her as a witness. So that's not great. They had to dismiss everything. Danny Scott was reinstated as a guard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got his job back.

[James Pietragallo]

Got his fucking job back. Wow, that's balls right there. Imagine saying, even asking for it back.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How do you justify that?

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, man. Well, they made some new rules, and they said that ought to cover it. That ought to do it. Gary Walker had the charges dropped against him and. But there's still. He confessed to a detailed gang rape in writing. So that goes in your permanent file, I think, at that point. So. But there was no other evidence except his confession. So they said, given his status as already being in jail and considered a paranoid schizophrenic who's in and out of mental hospitals, he can't be the only witness against anybody. So that's fine. Wow, that's fucking terrible. So he serves. Sentenced to three years in prison in 77 for second degree burglary. Released in 79. He entered the federal prison system in 79 when a U.S. district Judge revoked his parole on the 1977 charge of feloniously receiving a firearm. Okay, he's got a lot going on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No shit.

[James Pietragallo]

So he was sent to a federal facility in Texas before being transferred to the federal medical facility in Springfield, Missouri, in 1982. So they think he's too much to handle in a Texas federal jail, so they send him to the mental institution in Springfield, Missouri. During his time in Springfield, he made several unsuccessful attempts to escape as well, obviously. So February 1984 seems like a good parole risk, right? He is dangerous, dangerous man, but he's not really in there for anything that you can hold him forever on is the problem. So he's paroled in February 1984. He's released. He stayed with his sister she said that while he was there, he was a perfect gentleman. Oh, he was great. She thought he was all fixed. All fixed up now. Sure, sure. Then. So that's who they're looking for is Gary Allen Walker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's doing great.

[James Pietragallo]

This, that's. Yeah. You look down him, you go, okay. At least with all he did, this all tracks anyway. That's the guy who would do this, probably. But he's never done anything really violent before. That's the thing. He doesn't really have a history of violence. It's mainly thefts and things like that. Except for the gang rape, which isn't really officially on his record. Even so, who knows? Now they finally catch up with him on June 2, 1984 in Tulsa.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Pietragallo]

He's arrested at a Tulsa mobile home park after a week long manhunt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fantastic.

[James Pietragallo]

Lovely. Right. He's arrested at the home of Marshall George Cummings Jr. Remember that name? Because he'll come up again later. This is at the 8900 block of East Admiral Boulevard. Apparently they had met earlier that night at Dorothy's Tavern and struck up a real friendship there. So police went to the trailer after Cummings brother told officers he saw this wanted guy at the bar. So apparently they went straight from the bar back to Cummings home and. And when they busted in there, they were just hanging out, drinking beer and eating pizza. Hanging out. So they question anybody. Pepperoni?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

They questioned Cummings at the mobile home, but they had no reason to arrest him because they didn't think he was with him this whole time or anything like that. He said, I just met this fucking guy partying with a dude I met. So they bring old Gary Walker in and sit him down. Okay, now what do you think he's gonna say? He's had plenty of time in the system. Yeah, plenty of time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What's he gonna say?

[James Pietragallo]

He fucking knows better than to say anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So the detective here, they take, they sit him down and. Okay, he says, I'll tell you everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything.

[James Pietragallo]

I'll tell you what happened. I'll tell you everything. As a matter of fact, he's not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gonna tell him anything.

[James Pietragallo]

Every goddamn thing that happened, I'll tell you. He says, I know right from wrong, but I don't know why I killed all these people. Let me tell you what happened, okay? Eddie Oliver Cash, May 6, 1984. He's the hitchhiker Eddie picked up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

It was Gary Walker. He gave him a ride and over the course of the ride found out his name, found out what town he lives in, found out he lives alone. Found out all that shit. So when he's dropped off, he looks him up in the phone book, finds his address, and goes to his house to rob it. That's what he did. Exactly what he did. So he showed up to burglarize it. Eddie continued along the way to see a sick relative, and Gary Walker called directory assistance to see where he lived.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

So, yeah, they had. Apparently Walker made mental notes as he listened to him. And he's a fucking scam artist. I mean, that's what he was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So he figured out where he lived and he went to his house to rob him. Now, Eddie, as he's coming up to his house, didn't see that Walker was on his porch ready to break into his house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Didn't even see him.

[James Pietragallo]

No. So apparently Eddie didn't see Walker duck around the corner of the house and wait for Eddie to go into the house after he saw Eddie go into the house. And then he said, shit, what if he saw me? He's gonna fucking call the cops if he saw me creep him around out here. So he knocked on the door and Eddie opened the door and he forced his way inside. He beat Eddie with a brick, then tied a cord from the vacuum cleaner around his neck and strangled him with it. He left the fucking bloody brick there. That's right on the table, as we'll find out here. He said that he just wanted to burglarize the house. That's all he was interested in. Didn't want to kill the guy, hurt anybody. He said as he fled, he grabbed a brick and then returned to the house to beat him more. He said, I came back and was like, I don't know if he's dead, because what if he didn't kill him and then he'd get up and call the cops? So he said he went in and hit him some more with the brick, just to make sure. He said, that man picked me up. He said I was hitchhiking and he told me his name. And I later got to thinking I should just go burglarize his house. Said he came out, he came up while I was there. I beat him to death with a brick. That's what he said. He said that, yeah, the brick was the thing, like where he left. And he was like, oh, shit, he's here. Then he came back and said, if I go in there, I better have something. Let me get this brick. And that's what happened. So he takes Eddie's van and his shoes for some reason, and he goes on A six hour trip back to Poto here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And yeah, he did all of that. And I don't know why he would steal his shoes. Same size, maybe we can't sell them. So he drove until late into the evening and then he came upon a salvage yard just outside Summerfield, Oklahoma. He sold Eddie's van and also sold anything else he stole out of there. So now he's got a bunch of cash, so he moves on. And this is 5-7-84. Now he left Eddie behind. That's when he found Margaret and Bell Lydich, the 37 year old.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And now he's just going to go around the country. What are you going to do?

[James Pietragallo]

Kill as many people as you can? That's what I mean. I don't know what, I don't know what the ultimate plan here is. That's the thing. What's the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just going to get away with forever until you get that, that coveted day job that you're looking for.

[James Pietragallo]

Eventually they'll hire me. Is that what it is?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

I have some applications in, but until they get back to me, I'm going to murder a bunch of people and steal some shit. So this was. Gary had just arrived in Poto. He had just dumped off the van and did all of that. So he hitchhiked to Poto and checked into what he called a quote, roach trap motel.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Roach trap? The whole hotel traps people.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, not a roach motel, a roach trap motel. He said he freshened himself up and went out looking for something to do. Okay, looking to party, that's when. And he had a bunch of cash and you know, why not. So he wanted to do something. He walks, he finds Henry's bar and that's. The motel is within walking distance. So he goes to go for a drink and finds Margaret with her sprayed on pants. So. And she's pretty, she's got a nice smile, nice eyes, all this type of shit. So they have a drink, he buys her a drink and they chit chat and all that. Apparently Margaret had also worked for a radio station. This is the weird part really. She worked for a smaller radio station, KLCO in downtown Poto. She used the name Sabrina on the air, so she was like a dj. So that's very strange. Out of all the fucking people he found. He wasn't targeting people in radio, but he ended up with two people in radio. It was a family owned station. Margaret and her brother were both brought up in the family business. Her dad started the station, which is interesting here. She's known very well this is a small station though. Obviously this is not a big station here. Now, Margaret told her. Margaret had told her daughter she was going to stop by for a drink at this place and then she'd be home. That's the Henry's bar, which is a little everybody knows your name type of joint. He saw her. He was seated at the bar and they chit chatted for a while. He told her his name. He said his name was Gary. He's got a room up at the motel. He said, he's a truck driver, his rig is down. And she said, oh well, whatever, and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. But she said, I'll give you a ride up the road. That's fine. I don't want to make you walk it. That's stupid. So they climbed into her white Cadillac and once she was seated, once she was seated and they were both inside the car, he pulled a knife out and he said, I'm gonna kill you if you fight me. So you drive. So she drove off. Walker forced Margaret to drive him across the Arkansas line, all the way to Tennessee and then Kentucky. Really all the way. That's a long ride. Sure enough, that's a day trip. He used her credit cards for gas and food along the way. Every time they stopped, he would rape and sodomize Christ every stop they made. So, yeah, that is, if he had to pee, it meant he was going to fucking rape her. Walker let her ride in the front seat sometimes, but then would tell her no and throw her in the backseat. And then he would throw her in the trunk sometimes too, depending on his feeling, it was either front seat or trunk. And he would just turn the radio up to ignore her. He said, how's that? Now, inside the Cadillac, this is a long bladed knife, obviously. Jesus Christ. All over the place, though. All basically rural stops on the highway. Raped her at the first stop, kept driving, raped her at the second stop, made her keep driving. And then he took over and did all of that. So he went from Oklahoma to Arkansas, from Arkansas to Tennessee, Tennessee to Kentucky. Knife always out, always threatening. Forced to drive to our own horrors here. He said, quote, this is his quote. Raped and sodomized her more times when we stopped for gas, multiple stops specifically for assaulting her, just specifically to rape her. And then this goes on for days. Obviously, it's a long trip. He finally strangled her to death. Where? In the car. He kept her body in the Cadillac and continued to drive around with her corpse in his car. In her car, in a stolen car. He spent nearly a Week with her in the car.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Just decomposing. Yeah. The stench was nauseating, but he didn't mind. He said it was fine. Wow. Now, in Branson, Missouri, on the way back, the Cadillac breaks down. Oh, he said it breathed its last breath. That's what he said. It hissed and coughed and stopped dead. It was on the side of a remote road, so he abandoned it. Now the body's still in the car.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Left the body in the car.

[James Pietragallo]

Left the body in the trunk. Later, came back and moved it before police found the vehicle and took the body somewhere else.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

He said he went to Princeton, Kentucky, and hid it in a haystack near an abandoned barn.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay. So he hitchhikes back to Oklahoma. Some fucking buddy drove him there and lived to tell about it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Good Lord.

[James Pietragallo]

Yes. He had it all out of his face.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's the only person so far.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So, yeah. He strangled this poor woman, though, the one that he had taken around and raped constantly and hit her in the haystack, which is wild. May 14, 1984, was Jane K. Hilburn. This is the woman with the for sale sign in her front yard who was looking for a job in Tulsa. Yeah, that's. Wow. She's a grocery store clerk and she drives the 87 Camaro. She was trying to sell her house on her own. So she was trying to do all this. She's showing the house, she's working, she's doing all this type of shit now. He said he wanted to look to buy a house. He ran into her and said, oh, you have a house for sale? I'd like to see it. Yeah, okay. So she ends up leading him through the front door of her home. And he looked around. Oh, yeah, look at this. Oh, there's a nice sized bathroom and all that kind of thing. Did all the small talk. She was telling him all about the house and all that kind of thing. She said that the neighborhood in the background, you know, there's that nice neighborhood and all this type of shit. She showed him each room. He walked behind her. And what he's really doing is checking to see if there was anybody else in the house. That's what he was doing. Once he found out no one else was in the house, in the hallway, between bedrooms, he just attacked her from behind. Knocked her down to the floor. She fought, but not very well. He reached for the nearest cord, cut it from a lamp and choked her to death with it. Strangled her with the cord. He then just stepped over the body. He robbed her, took all that he Wanted to. And then grabbed her Camaro and left. He said it was a pity she didn't have much in her wallet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck, man?

[James Pietragallo]

At least she didn't leave the tank empty on the car. So that's what she said? That's what he said. He said that? Yeah. Wow. That's crazy now he pulled away from the house and drove away. That was that. When school let out that day, the six year old daughter came home and found her mother's body. That is fucking horrific. Wow. So yeah, he keeps on the move. May 15, 1984. Yeah, okay. An 18 year old girl is leaving her home to swim. Walker pulls up in the stolen Camaro and offers a ride. Yeah, yeah. He introduces himself as Gary Edwards, which was his real name. They talk about her possibly having a modeling career. I don't know if he says he took pictures or something like that. That was a big come on back in the day. So he takes her for a ride in the Camaro. He tries to rape her at one point and she escaped.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

She got out of it and he said later I picked up a girl and I was gonna kill her, but I didn't. She got out of the car and ran. He was planning on raping and killing her, but she got away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck?

[James Pietragallo]

Once she started running, he goes, yeah. Then it's a spectacle. If you go chase after. Gonna fucking chase people around. That's a little immature, don't you think?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not on the fucking road.

[James Pietragallo]

May 20, 1984. Okay. He picks up a young man and a young lady hitchhiking in Harmony. He dropped the boy off and took the girl on. He rapes her at an Osage county oil lease location. By the way, he's still driving the black Camaro.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the hell?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, he decided to dump the car at the site of the oil lease. The tag on the Camaro had already been switched earlier. He stole it from a vehicle parked near U.S. 75 and State Highway 16, which is very interesting here. Now this is the cop that interviewed him, said, quote, he told me how he had brought her through Bristow to State Highway 16. They stopped at a little git and go, G I T. Git and go. Oh yeah. And got some groceries. Then he took her over by Slick and was on an oil lease. We tracked it all the way, just like he said. We found the boy who was an oil pumper and he said he had to honk at them to get them out of the road. Meaning him and the girl were walking down the road. He honked at them. They were walking to Chuck Wells. He said they were both in the car asleep. This is what Gary told him, that she was asleep and he got on top of her and that's how this whole thing started.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Started it while she was asleep.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, she was asleep May 23, 1984. Is Janet D. Jewell, the 32 year old. She's the one whose Dodge Dart ran out of gas in downtown Tulsa. It's mid morning. She's a pretty smart lady. Out job hunting she was. She ran out of gas at Peoria Avenue between 3rd and 4th Streets in Tulsa. She, you know, she ended up walking to go get gas and was on her way back with the gas tank when here comes Gary. Okay, she's alone and she looks like she's in distress. She's having car problems. So you know, why not, why not attack? As this asshole would see it here he sees her carrying a gas can. She's wearing a. She's wearing, going looking for a job outfit too. She's dressed real nice and he approached her and he's an average looking guy and he was dressed like a normal guy. He doesn't look like a monster. That's the thing. If he looked like a monster, he wouldn't be able to do any of this shit. The fact that he looks pretty normal helps him blend in, you know, he's got the Bundy thing going on there, you know, so he appeared very non threatening. He offered to help her get the car started. He told her that you got to. You're going to need to prime the carburetor for this. Yeah, it's a 66 Dodge Dart.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, and shittiest ones.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. Yeah, not even the V8. Yeah, so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, it might have been, right? 66.

[James Pietragallo]

No, specifically says it wasn't the V8 model. Yeah, not the V8 model. There is a V8 model, but she didn't have that one. So she said sure, why not? And pop the hood, basically. I mean that's. What are you gonna do? So she popped the hood. He pulled the starter wire off the distributor cap. So the car's not going to start. Yeah, obviously. So, yeah, so he, he's doing this. He had her try to start the ignition a couple times, but then he's like, oh, you don't want to run the battery down while your flashers are going. So you know, calm down. So he's messing around under the hood for a few minutes and you know, he's taking a couple minutes to do it to make her, you know, make her seem like he's really doing something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really working hard for her. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So he plays around under the hood and he's doing all this type of thing. He put the wire back on and he says, okay, try it now. So she moved over and turned the key, and it started right away. So he said, great. So then he popped in the car, sat down next to her with a knife out and said, shut up and don't move. He held the blade at her stomach there and drove away. He drove her out to Beggs, where he raped her and strangled her to death, which is obviously fucking horrible. Here he said he raped her repeatedly while threatening her with a knife and didn't kill her till the next day. Held her hostage. Held her hostage so he could repeatedly rape her and then kill her, which is fucked up. So, yeah, he said. The cop said about this. He said he thought he would take her down there, meaning two miles south of Beggs, and they'd have dinner. They had some potato chips and drinks. So he took her down there, and then he had her hands tied with a cord. He said that he, you know, raped her, as he'd done many times before, he said. And then he said he decided to kill her near the creek bank. He said it wasn't even premeditated. It just came to him quickly. He was like, huh? I should kill her? I should kill this mother of three. Why not? So the cop said. He said he thought it was time to go. She was laying over there with her back to him. He took a piece of the cord and wrapped it around her neck to cut the air off. Okay, so then he said he needed. The thing he needed to do was carry her down to the creek and throw her into the water. And that's what he did. Had to get rid of the body, which is pretty fucked up. Just dropped her like garbage next to the creek bed. That's it. And she's not even far from her house either, which is pretty fucked up. This is 1.8 miles east of Beggs, which is the town she lives in. So then he took her Dodge Dart and drove to Tulsa's Town west shopping center on May 24th here, okay? He's going to park and he's going to wait for another victim. That is when he sees Valerie Shaw Hartzell walking up the newscaster here. She stopped for some diapers. He grabbed her. He held her hostage for 24 hours, repeatedly raped her, forced her to cash checks of $500, tried to cash a check of $650, but 500 was some limit they had on the day for self cashing checks or whatever. So he had to go back with 500. Then he strangles her with strips of towel that he makes her make. He makes her rip the towel up saying he's going to tie her up but he's going to strangle her with it. Yeah. Which is unbelievable. So Walker said that he thought, quote, thought I was going to go. Thought I was going to the car next to her truck. She thought that he went like a key out going to the car next to her truck. She unlocked her truck and I walked up behind her. I had the knife and I told her to get in. The thing that made her really upset was that there was two police officers in the parking lot that did not see this at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God. They didn't even see it.

[James Pietragallo]

Didn't even see it. So he drove to the Kellyville oil lease where he kept her overnight. Obviously attacked her all night long, which is fucking horrible. So she's got three kids and a husband named Randy at home waiting for. Never comes home. Jesus Christ. They said at one point Valerie Shaw Hartzell became very upset that the two police officers in the parking lot didn't see what happened. And he thought that was funny, Gary.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hilarious.

[James Pietragallo]

He thought it was hilarious. So yeah, kept her overnight in the truck there. The next morning he drove around Tulsa with her before taking her to an isolated rural area of western Rogers County. There he forced her to tear the towel into strips. This is a towel that's in her car that her husband uses to wipe the dew from the pickup truck's windows in the morning. And wow, these people are really prepared. She fills out. Yeah. Warranty cards. He has a towel for morning dew. I live in New York. Dewey play. I never bring a towel to wipe the dew. That's wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wet around there, right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that just happens. That's crazy. These people are prepared. So he bound her hands with the towel, strangled her and disposed of her body in a ravine. He then stopped at the Keatonville Hill grocery store there and bought a Dr. Pepper and went to a Claremore car wash. Then bought Western boots, jeans, shirt, belt and cowboy hat. He bought himself a fucking costume. Yeah, he's like, you know what? It's almost Halloween. I think I'm a cowboy now. Great. He bought a full fucking rig, man. Then he went to a local bar to play pool and drink beer, which is where he met that other guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's what you do. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yep. The next morning he drove around Collinsville area. Jesus. Christ. He talked about strangling her and all this type of shit. He tied her hands. He said he used his hands and arms to put her into a sleeper hold. That's how he killed her. He tied her up with the towel and then did that. Asked whether she fought back, he said, well, sir, if you know what a sleeper hold is, there's not a heck of a lot you can do. They pass out real quick. Then he tied the towel strip around her neck and strangled her with it. So he just put her to sleep with the. With the sleeper hole.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So she's out. And that's kind of chicken shit, right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Got to put her out first and then did that. Jesus Christ. That is fucking insane. Then he drives the truck down to the same salvage yard that he sold at his van. Yeah, this is a brand new truck. It's that year, right? Brand fucking new. And sold the truck to this salvage yard guy who apparently doesn't ask as many questions as the pawn shop guy does about a fucking club. Jesus Christ.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not real curious to sell the club. Much easier.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Doesn't sweat the details. This guy doesn't care. So asked why he killed Valerie Shaw Hartzell, he said, I couldn't tell you any more than why the wind blows.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, I mean, I could tell you why the wind blows.

[James Pietragallo]

I mean, he couldn't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He should be able to, right?

[James Pietragallo]

I don't think he went to science class very often. I don't think he knows why the wind blows. He said, I didn't have no feelings at all. That's what he said. And feelings without a G. Without a G in the paper and everything. Now his voice during the confession is choked up. He's got some sobs at several times. He's remorseful, he says, and he wanted to do the right thing. And he believed that cooperating with the cops is the right thing. He said he was tired of running and lying. He says, this is the only way I know how. I hope and pray that people understand, but I know they won't, and I just can't blame him for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nothing I can do about it.

[James Pietragallo]

He said, I just want everybody to know that I'm sorry. He said, he's obviously hurt, but not as much as the people who's lost. Lost loved ones. He said, I'll never be able to pay back what I took. Then he said, I just want them to let me go to court, plead guilty and put me to death. There's nobody that's been any colder than I've been. Let's do that now, May 26, 1984, that's when he went on a drinking spree. After he killed Valerie, he goes to Claremore and Tulsa, going on a drinking spree, then takes her truck to Veneta, where he then kidnaps another young woman, holds her for a couple of days, raping her repeatedly. He said later the girl was nice to him. Even after several rapes, he liked her and decided to let her go because he felt bad because she was so nice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They do that sometimes.

[James Pietragallo]

It's the most fucked up thing, but there's no way to predict is the problem because sometimes if you're nice, that pisses them off, you know what I mean? That makes them mad. They don't want you to like it. They want you to fucking fight and hate it. That's what they want.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be upset and hurt.

[James Pietragallo]

Right? That's what they're into. Yeah, that's. It's crazy. And then some guys are like, you can charm them, basically. And that's what happened here. He said he decided to let her live. He drove her back to a street near her home and let her go. Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about a new series from Prime Video. Lazarus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Harlan Coben's Lazarus.

[James Pietragallo]

You know it. Best selling mystery writer Harlan Coben, excellent writer, returns to television with a twisted tale of lies, murder and long buried family secrets. Excellent stuff. Harlan COBEN has like 37 books and they're all real page turners where everything comes together at the end. He's excellent and Harlan Coben's Lazarus stars Sam Claflin and Bill Nye and can only be seen on Prime Video. This looks cool. Seen the trailer? It looks like. And from what I've heard too, from the actors and interviews, a lot of carnage going on here, right? You want some blood? This is the place to do it. I'm telling you. Binge it, have a good time. It comes out October 22nd. Watch Harlan Coben's Lazarus now streaming on Prime Video.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Pietragallo]

They didn't even like take her to the middle of nowhere or anything. He just said, all right, you got, you have a good one. Wow. Then took the pickup down and traded it for a Western style.22 caliber handgun. From there, he went to Van Buren, Arkansas and tried to rob a grocery store with the.22. The female clerk ran screaming, so he fled without getting any money. He pulled out and said, give me all your money, she said, and ran out the door.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's no money.

[James Pietragallo]

I don't know how to open the register. And she's gone. So I'm out of here. Yeah, that's my favorite thing, by the way. When there's videos of people attempting to rob a place and everybody just either ignores them or walks away and then eventually they just leave. That's the funniest thing in the fucking world. I love that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not bad.

[James Pietragallo]

That's. I saw a video where some guy tried to rob. It was a nail place and everybody that worked there was like Vietnamese or something, and I don't even know if they spoke fucking English, but he came in with a gun. He's like, give me your money. Do all this. And they were just looking at him and continuing to do nails and shit. Like, fuck you, dude. And like, no one would do shit. He's like, I'm gonna kill you. And they're like, okay. Shrugging and so mani petty, like, what do you want from us? You know what I mean? Full set. They have no idea what he's talking about. So he eventually, after like two minutes of yelling at each individual person with no response, just runs out the door. Gotta run. Doesn't know what to do. Either kill everyone in here or fucking run away. So, wow. Now, about the Vanita woman who he let go. He said she was nice to me even after I sodomized her. This guy is fucking cold. When he drove her home, he kissed. He kissed her goodbye.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And she ran to her house and immediately reported him to the police. Obviously she been kidnapped and raped. So he left that scene and went to a nearby motel where you'd think he's going to relax for a minute. This guy sounds like he could use a nap. Yeah, look on that room key and order that dominoes and sit down with a big belly full of fucking thick crust in your stomach there. Instead, he quickly captures a motel employee, kidnaps her and forces her to help him kidnap a second employee to lure them in. He made the two women drive their car for a few blocks and then he had them stop so he could drive. And in the switching of seats, they managed to run away and escape in the fire drill. Jesus Christ. This is after he'd already assaulted the maid, though, back at the motel. So, yeah, that's fucking crazy. He was trying to get them to get into the trunk of the car. Trying to get two people into a trunk is a rough one because one's gonna run one way, you turn to get them, the other one's gonna run the other way. It's not easy, it's not good yeah, you're definitely, definitely trying to herd ducklings at that point. It's not gonna work. So that's when they took off. He took off in the car to dump it in the woods. Because they saw the car and they knew it and everything. He figured they'd be calling the cops here. So he dumped the car, their car, minutes later, and broke into a trailer. This is insane. Think about what he's been doing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's so busy.

[James Pietragallo]

That's the end game.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, but how? How are you gonna get away with that?

[James Pietragallo]

He doesn't have a job. He can have two jobs for all he's working. That's the fucking thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a lot of work.

[James Pietragallo]

All the murders. Then he stops the motel. This one, that one. Picking this one up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So busy.

[James Pietragallo]

He's picked up several people and not killed them too, and raped them and everything else. Like he's just so fucking busy. So he breaks into a trailer. Two women come home unexpectedly. He abducts them and takes their car. The younger woman is pregnant, by the way. So now he's got a pregnant woman at bay here. Jesus Christ. He promised not to harm the women if they'd give him a ride to Tulsa, and they said okay. They drove him to Tulsa and he let them go. After he got to Tulsa, he told the truth. He said, you take me to Tulsa, I'll let you go. He told the police that the women wished him luck and urged him to keep their car as a getaway vehicle. He agreed and decided to release them at a restaurant. I don't think they said, please. Please take our car. Take my wife, please. No, he didn't say that. He said, I'm gonna take your car and not kill you. And they said, yeah, no, totally. Take it. Great. I don't give a fuck. Yeah, don't rape or kill either of us. Terrific. Take the car. No problem. No, no, we want you to have it. That's probably what it was. Yeah. None of them had any money, though. And he stopped and sold the gun he had at Claremore. He gave the women some money and dropped them off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's no rhyme or reason to what this man's gonna do.

[James Pietragallo]

Nothing. You never know what he's gonna do. It might be the most brutal, crazy rape and murder. It might be. You give me a ride. I threaten you, but you give me a ride. Then I give you gas money and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Leave like you might get away unscathed entirely.

[James Pietragallo]

It's so fucking weird. He even said that Walker said they offered to wait an hour before notifying the cops. And they actually did. They waited a fucking hour before they called the cops, just like they said. He said, quote, I kissed them both on the cheek. What the fuck is going on? I mean, good for them. They figured out to cooperate and it worked for them. But holy shit. So he decided on the afternoon of June 1st. It was a nice day. So he would drive to the area around Figure 5, which is Kentucky with the states. Jesus Christ. Everybody's looking for him, by the way. Everybody, they're all looking for him. Oh, figure five is in Arkansas. It's a small community in Arkansas. It's one above the figure four, you know what I mean? The figure four leg lock. Until you put the figure five on them, they're giving up right away. It's an unincorporated town in Crawford County, Arkansas. It's near Van Buren, Arkansas, which I think we've done as a. An episode. Pauline Mullikin and her daughter Laurie Smallwood went out shopping that day. When they get home, guess who's there in their small trailer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gary.

[James Pietragallo]

It's fucking Gary. Hanging out in their small trailer. By the way, if you're looking for valuables to sell, maybe stop going to small rural trailers.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't have much.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah. Find a big ass house and go break into that. What the fuck is wrong with you? They might have jewelry and shit these people don't have.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Probably. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Or anything expensive in that small trailer. He takes Pauline and her daughter Lori hostage. Obviously. Now he knew in his mind he needed the car and at least one of the women because he knows people are after him, so he needs to have a hostage in case the shit gets hairy. So now that's what's going on here. They have like fucking bloodhounds looking for him. I mean, there's literally everybody here, so this is goddamn crazy. Anyway, here we go. He made his way to their mobile home and he broke in and waited. Got the hostages, got them. He was hiding in the mobile home. When they came home, he had found a gun in the bedroom.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

25 caliber he found. And it was loaded and ready to go. He rummaged through the house some more. And he's doing all of this shit. He ate their food and everything while he waited for them. When they pulled up, Walker met Pauline as she came in her own front door. He held the gun on her. Pauline gets marched back outside to get her daughter. Laurie held her hands up and did what she was told. He took cords to tie them up, forced them both into the trunk of Pauline's Car after throwing out all of their groceries that they just came back with. He had to empty the trunk of groceries to get them in the trunk. He threw the. Also searched through their purses and threw the purse's contents all over the lawn. As he was looking for money and keys. He took the keys for Mrs. Mullikan's car, then threatened both women with what he would do if they didn't get in the trunk. So they were like, okay, now they got in the trunk and took off. The husband, Mr. Mullikan, comes home around that time, and they live off this dirt road in a rural area. He pulls up. He told the police he returned home around noon that day and thought he saw someone he didn't know driving his car, but went, that probably not my car. He passed them on the road.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Look at that. They drive in similar cars, man.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, look at that. Same car as me. Weird. And he didn't see his wife or daughter with him. He just saw a guy driving a car. Is he gonna do fucking throw it sideways in the middle of the road and go, your car looks like mine? Yeah. That's crazy. So that's how it goes. Now, his wife and daughter were in the trunk of the car.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

As it passed him. So he pulled up and found the yard filled with groceries and the contents of his wife's purse strewn about and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A car that was probably that, right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So now he's like, what the fuck is going on here? So that's strange. But they just waited to hear from them. They just sat and waited. Oh, they must be out. They'll be somewhere. Wow. Not long before they're going. En route to Tulsa, Gary Walker moves the women from the trunk of the car to the front seat next to them, next to him. Come sit next to me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Come cop a squat here next to me on the old bench.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And they know nothing about him.

[James Pietragallo]

They don't know what he's wanted for. They don't know anything. They just know he's a psychopath who held him at gunpoint and forced him into a trunk. They were terrified but compliant. They talked to him. They just talked to him about all sorts of small talk. They let him do most of the talking. They did everything. Now they get to Claremore, Oklahoma, where out of nowhere, he decides the mom has to go in the trunk for a while again. He's tired of her. So while in the trunk, she could hear her daughter's voice talking to Walker. And he kept the gun on the seat pointed at her with his Hand on it, she listened anxiously, she said, not wanting to hear her daughter be raped or killed or anything like that. So not long after he did whatever he had to do in Claremore, he moved her back to the front seat from the trunk. He's like, you're good. You can come up now. He had traded the gun for $25 for gas money. That's what he did. So now he's got no gun.

[Jimmy Whisman]

None.

[James Pietragallo]

So he has no dirty there, but he's got gas but no gun. They don't. I don't think they realize he doesn't have a gun at this point for a minute. So they continued to talk all the way into Tulsa. And Walker decided to pull over at one of the Tulsa intersections in front of Facet's jewelry store. He kissed each one of them on the cheek and told them they'd been nicer than the others. Said, you guys, get out. You've been nicer than the others. Go on now. So they got out, he drove away. They ran into the jewelry store and called the cops. So. But this is insane.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cops don't know that it's him.

[James Pietragallo]

No, but they have an idea because it's the same description of everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it just keeps happening.

[James Pietragallo]

It just keeps happening. They just keep getting calls. Same guy attacking this people, kidnapping them in the trunk, raping, murdering, letting some people go with nice words for some reason. There's no rhyme or reason to what he's doing or when or why or how or what causes him to do things. It's the strangest thing in the fucking world. So the next day on June 2, he's at a bar in Tulsa and the cops are slowly kind of tightening the noose around him here. Yeah, so. And he's got to be tired, for Christ's sake. Has to be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At some point you're gonna just quit, right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I would imagine he goes sleepy time now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That, I mean, that's why the tall fucker turned himself in. He was just tired and he was done.

[James Pietragallo]

He's tired.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Too tired. Edmund. Kevin.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes, there he is. Bingo.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, just too tired.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Couldn't do it anymore.

[James Pietragallo]

Just did a lot. And he didn't even have. This guy's had a wild last month. Oh, he's been busier than we are in the last month, which is a lot. And also no raping with us either. So that helps too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, I live alone. There's nothing happening over here.

[James Pietragallo]

We go on the road. There's no rape happening. It's mainly just live shows and bad travel. Live shows and plane delays. Okay? Now, Walker pulls up to this bar in the stolen car from these two women, which obviously they're looking for the car. A witness saw him at the bar and recognized him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. He's driving around public in a stolen car with his picture plastered on every news broadcast in the state saying, we looking in four states, saying we're looking for this guy. So it's pretty interesting here. There's people all looking for him while he's at the bar. He made a new friend and decided to go back to that friend's house. And they went back to the house. Multiple patrons from the bar called the police and said, that guy that I keep seeing on TV was just in this fucking bar, and he left with Marshall Cummings. So you might want to go do that. So they did. The guy, Marshall Cummings, was known to the people in the bar. So they gave the cops his address, and so he's probably over there. So they traced the mobile home, surveilled it. Walker and Cummings were both in the trailer drinking beer. Walker, during the surveillance, decided to go out for pizza. So that's when they arrested him, and they took him without any violence. He surrendered. Everything was fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Pietragallo]

He just. He walked outside. All the cops are there. They said, freeze. He went, okay. After all of that, after all that, he's got no gun or anything. So that's it. They take him down. He says, by the way, quote, this is wild. When they get him sitting down, this is how you can tell remorse. Some people have remorse and some people don't. But when someone says it like this, you can tell they're just teeming with remorse. I'm sorry. I killed five people. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm sorry. Okay, Good enough. Just five people.

[James Pietragallo]

That's like a guy would tell his wife, sorry, I forgot to take the cans out to the curb. Okay. Sorry. Both of them. The fucking trash will come next week. I don't know what to tell you. Sorry. That's. That's how you'd say that. Enough. Ball break. This is crazy. I'm sorry. I killed five people. Okay? Jesus Christ. So June 8, 1984, is when he starts. Because there's bodies that they don't know where they are, right? He says, well, I know where they are, and I'll show you. No problem. So, yeah, the cop said, there are things in my mind that tell me, not only did he kill these, but maybe he killed numerous other people that he's not being linked to by the charges. You think? Jesus Christ. So the cop said, when he's shackled and handcuffed. I introduced myself to him, and he stuck his hand out like, howdy, how you doing?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Howdy.

[James Pietragallo]

Howdy. He said, sheriff, I'll be glad to show you where her body's at. I said it was almost like he was giving directions, just, you know, telling him. He recounted for them how he had abducted the woman from Beggs. And the two left Tulsa immediately after the abduction, headed for the rural area. They find Margaret and Bell Lydich's body. He led them all the way to Kentucky. They had to go just like he said. An abandoned barn near Princeton, Kentucky. They found exactly where he said it was, in a field near the I24 Princeton exit. And in a haystack. That's exactly what he said they called it. The police officer called it a disturbingly rotted cadaver. Oh, God, it's been weeks. So severely decomposed, by the way. At this point, the press has a new nickname for him. Really? Well, a nickname. Not a new one, a nickname. It's not bad. The Roaming Rapist. Yeah, that's something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Pietragallo]

That's. That describes a lot of what he does here. Then there's Janet D. Jewell. Remember her? Found her skeletonized after the confession. They found her badly decomposed corpse in a heap by a Creek out near 266th street near Beggs. The rains had washed it about 150ft down the stream from the original dump site. Walker led these cops to the creek where he dumped Jules body. And while showing the location, they said he had no hint of regret. The cop said he was just cool and collected. I've never seen anyone that way. Except for Steven Van White. Steven van White attacked two women at the Wagging Tail store in December 1982. One victim was stabbed to death. The other was stabbed and beaten, but survived miraculously and got him busted. Next up, they're going to find Valerie Shaw Hartzell. And they said she died from asphyxiation. The ligature was found still around her neck and they said, tied extremely tight. Now, her disappearance was the key to connecting everything. Apparently, Valerie Shaw Hartzell, he did not wipe any evidence away or even tried to hide his face when he was at any of these places. So he left fingerprints and hair in the Dodge Dart. Fingerprints on her truck, fingerprints over here. His evidence is everywhere. They found towel strips and his fingerprints on parts of her truck. So the murder weapon and his fingerprints all over the same place. Which was recovered from an auto shop in Poto. Her purse was also found in the toilet of a public restroom at a Fort Gibson resort where Walker told the cops he disposed of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Couldn't be throwing her away hard enough.

[James Pietragallo]

Nope. Fucking unbelievable. Probably put it in, like, the back of the toilet or something. Now he told the cops he's crying during these interviews. And he said, you know, I didn't have any reason to kill those people. No reason. They just hadn't done anything to me. He would repeatedly say out loud, quote, if you really thought about why you did do it and couldn't figure out why, it seems like you'd stop. But I didn't. No, keep doing. Why am I doing this? I don't know. I should stop.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can't stop.

[James Pietragallo]

Guess not. Can't stop, won't stop. He's gonna keep fucking doing it. So he. Wow, he's gonna face homicide charges. Rape, kidnapping, burglary, car theft, you name it. He said, I just wanna plead guilty when they take him to be arraigned. I just wanna plead guilty. I don't care. Just as long as they don't kill me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

He said, I thought he wanted to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Die a minute ago.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what he said. Now. He said, no. That's what he told the child. He's not into it now. Once he got in here, he's like, it's kind of chill in here. I get meals and, you know, this is better than, I'm tired. This is going to be a good rest for me. So he said, I would just as soon after all this is over that they let me go into court and plead guilty and let them put me to death. Because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, there's nobody that's been any colder than I've been.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sounds like it.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that's what he told the cops. He also says, quote, a person brings whatever he does upon himself. It doesn't make any difference whether it's good or bad. If you do something good, you get something good. If you do something bad, you get something bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, you get what you put in.

[James Pietragallo]

Karma, Oklahoma style.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You do something bad, you get bad.

[James Pietragallo]

Just ask a dummy how to explain karma. And that's it right there. So the investigator for the DA's office said that on June 6, Walker said, I know I'm gonna die for what I've done. If I were free, I would do it again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You bet he will.

[James Pietragallo]

So, yeah, he's like, don't even feel bad. Cause I'm. Look, I might rape you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm a bad, bad man.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm a bad, bad, bad Man. There's an editorial in the newspaper around this time to the editor here and it said, who released Gary Allen Walker? To the editor it says, quote, the American citizen has always been very alert to the causes of accidents and especially tragedies that befall our loved ones. Now we must get to the actual cause of all these loved ones being murdered. Why in the name of justice and common sense, was Gary Allen Walker released from a place where those in charge could somehow some way keep control over him?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, that's the same thing happened to John Hinckley Jr. The doctor was not interested enough in his patient to realize his condition was one of urgency. How many more Gary Allen Walkers are going to be released upon innocent people who are taken from their own homes and brutally murdered? Those of you who are alarmed when these murders occurred will surely try to get to the cause of these terrible tragedies. Who's responsible for the release of Gary Allen Walker? We can see a mad dog coming and do our best to seek safety. And yet when we're forced out of our homes and murdered, then we must find out who's responsible for the release of this madman. The problem is he hadn't done anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What did he do?

[James Pietragallo]

He hadn't committed crimes besides that rape. But there was no charge there for that in jail. He hadn't committed any crimes of violence. That's the problem. He's a guy who did a bunch of dumb shit and he just all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of a sudden decided he was doing everything.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And when he's not success and when he's not escaping, he's pretty successful in these mental health programs.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

That's the other thing. He takes his medication, he does what he's supposed to do. If he's not escaping, so how long can you hold the guy for? And if you held him forever, then these people would be complaining. How long do we have to pay for this guy?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why do we keep.

[James Pietragallo]

Tell him to get a job.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

There's no winning.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can't just babysit everybody.

[James Pietragallo]

No, we can't just go. This guy's probably going to do something bad. Let's just keep him. You can't do that. It's a free country. You're free to do something bad and then get caught for it and go to prison. That's the. That's part of it. So, I mean, obviously we could see the future. It'd be different, but no one can see the future now. The salvage yard owner, by the way, there's a guy who owns a salvage yard who is Held for committing the crime of receiving stolen property as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So many things.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yeah, it's crazy. He was caught. This guy was caught with the van he stole with the Dodge van from Eddie Cash and the truck belonging to Valerie Hartzell. He had them both. This guy, the salvage yard owner, received two years in prison for receiving stolen property.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Good Christ.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Stop buying fucking stuff.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Goods.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. If the guy comes to you with two different cars in three days, you pretty much know that these are not his cars he's selling off for $25 or drug money or whatever the fuck it is. Now the defense here is if you're a defense attorney and you come into this, how do you even.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What do you do?

[James Pietragallo]

He said, that's the thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He said, I'm sorry. I murdered five people.

[James Pietragallo]

This is a totally. This is a total John Wayne Gacy situation where like he's spilled it and then you come in and you go, what do you even do? I guess he's not competent. He's been in mental institutions a whole bunch. Got a bunch of electroconvulsive therapy. Maybe that's what we do. So he undergoes mental testing since his arrest. The legal test for sanity in Oklahoma, as we know, it's different in different states. Just focuses on whether he knew the difference between right and wrong at the time of the crime. That's it. So he's diagnosed with having an antisocial personality disorder back in the day that we know about. So they evaluate this Walker during five one hour interviews and then a two hour session where he was injected with sodium amytal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God. Is that truth serum?

[James Pietragallo]

Truth serum? Yeah. Something that they'd give you if you're a spy. He also examined records of previous treatment provided to Walker. And Walker had experienced delusions and hallucinations and told this guy that he idolized his brother Wayne, who was killed a few years ago in a car accident. But he doesn't think he's dead because he talks to him at night.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, dear Lord.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what he told him? Yeah. That's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's scary.

[James Pietragallo]

That is terrifying. He's like, yeah, my dead brother talks to me and stuff, so it's totally fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

He also tells this. This doctor that when he was beating Eddie to death there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

He was Eddie Cash to death. He actually saw his stepfather and thought he was beating his stepfather to death.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Which would be understandable, obviously.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now that's psychosis. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Here's the evidence. They have. They have vehicles recovered. They have Cash's van in the salvage Yard. The Cadillac from Liddic in Missouri. The Camaro from Hilburn in an oil field. Jules Dodge. Janet. Jules Dodge Dart in the shopping center. And the pickup truck from Shaw Hartzell traded for a gun with the salvage guy. Right. Also lytics, credit card receipts, bank records from forced cash checks. 500 and $650 transactions. We got forensic evidence. We have fingerprints from multiple vehicles. Switched license plates.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Obviously, towel strips. There's a lot. Witnesses, fingerprints everywhere. He does have one friend. Yeah, one friend. Here. This is Lehman. A good Godwin is his buddy. He's a retired railroad worker. And they said he sat quietly in the court and mourned missing a chance to perhaps have salvaged Walker's life. He figured, he thought he could have stopped this. He said Walker occasionally stayed with him at his home in the weeks preceding the alleged killing spree. He said that Godwin and Walker's mother. Okay, Godwin and Betty, were living with him and his half brother. Walker would sometimes come to visit over at the house. He said Walker was a disturbed, moody guy, but a man who could have been saved. I don't think so. I think his head is real fucked up. Yeah, I don't think he's. I think he's up in the head, period.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think there's. Yeah, I think there's problems here.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And it's not even like. Like with. Again, like a Ted Bundy. Where you go. Where does this come from?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

We know where this comes from. It's obvious. He was. He was beaten to, molested.

[Jimmy Whisman]

His childhood is fucked.

[James Pietragallo]

Not an excuse. It doesn't matter. A lot of people are beaten and molested. You can't go kill people. You're going to prison. But you gotta.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You gotta fix it.

[James Pietragallo]

We get what the reason is. You know what I mean? This guy said he's a likable boy. Boy. Likable boy. He's in his fucking 30s. He's a murderer. If it had never happened, I wish he would have stayed. I'd have kept him. I raised three different families. I had four kids of my own, and I took four of them off the streets and got them through high school. I can tell you where every one of them is today. So he's like, I take in stray cats.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, I love them.

[James Pietragallo]

And I would. He could have been one of my strays that I helped.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes.

[James Pietragallo]

He said all Walker needed was a little love and understanding. Hey, I think he's beyond that. A little love and understanding. Try a little tenderness. What are you talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes, Try a little tenderness Put a little love in your life what are we talking about?

[James Pietragallo]

This is tlc. Everything would have been fine. No problem at all. Holy shit. He said that he came from a desperately unstable background and was beaten and molested and everything else. Now, Walker's also charged this guy Godwin, who's hanging out with him. Walker's also charged with forging a $350 check on that man's account when he was staying there. That was a little amount he stole. It wasn't enough. We thought he. It's as much as I can get without maybe him noticing, I think is what it was. What's that number? It sounds like a negotiation in his head. So he said he took. Godwin, said he took the forged check to police before he realized Walker might have been the forger. He said, otherwise, I wouldn't have taken him. I wouldn't have busted him. He said that Walker stayed at his home on and off for four weeks, leaving on May 2nd. He said, quote, he'd have moody spells. But he thinks that this is all happening because Walker has a death wish. He says he had an older brother. He really looked up to him. His brother was killed in California in a car wreck. I believe Gary wants to die because he ain't got nobody and got nobody, Nobody, nobody. Nobody cares for him. No. What the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a real look, man. Lonely, Socks.

[James Pietragallo]

So sad and lonely.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, Sad.

[James Pietragallo]

Lonely, sad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Lonely so hard.

[James Pietragallo]

That's what I'm saying. So anyway, because he ain't got nobody, he said, I'm sorry that he's gotten this deep because I figure I could have been a big brother or a daddy to him then.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Jesus, where were you when he was a kid? You know what I mean, Right? Then this guy says, I'm retired and I've got a big house. If Gary would have stayed there and hadn't done this, he could have been a fishing buddy to me and everything. We could have went down and caught some crappie together. This is bullshit. This is. The walleye are going now. This is terrible. So he said that he would try to visit Walker while he's in the jail awaiting completion of a preliminary hearing. He said he last talked to Walker when he was in this guy's hometown for his initial appearance on the Jewel killing. All of this is separate. He's going to have to go to different jurisdictions for everything that he's going to here. He said. Gary told me. He said, I know I'm going to die, but I'd like to Live long enough for them to find out why this happened and maybe prevent it from happening to somebody else.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Study my brain is what he said.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay, here comes court. By late 84, he's already going to trial.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yeah. No time wasted. That was fast. Real fast. A couple months. This is the Eddie Oliver Cash trial. The first man jury of eight women and four men. They questioned 59 potential jurors, and they said potential members of the jury were asked about their views on the death penalty, whether they had formed an opinion about Gary's guilt or innocence based on news accounts and what they thought about psychological or psychiatric testimony regarding mental disorders. His whole thing is, I'm fucking crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm nuts.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, totally. The defense attorneys have tried to have his statements suppressed, but unsuccessfully. They're. They're in. Yeah. He was read his rights and he gave statements, Period.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

What are you going to do there? So the prosecution here. Okay. In this trial, testimony by witnesses called indicated that Cash, Eddie Cash, spent a normal Sunday chatting with neighbors, dining with his daughter, attending church, picked up a hitchhiker, and then ended up dead. That's how it happened. Now they have Dr. Thomas Goodman, a Tulsa psychiatrist who testifies for the defense, supporting an insanity plea. He reviewed records, conducted exams, including the sodium amytal deal. And his opinion was that Walker knew right from wrong but believed he was killing his stepfather.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

He said he's had psychotic episodes and severe disorders since age 13. And this is just part of it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, another psychiatrist examined Walker for all of this. And Walker, again, to this guy, claimed he saw his stepfather and felt that it was not wrong to kill him. It was perfectly fine to. It's perfectly allowed to kill your fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's my stepdad. If I see his face, he's a dick. Throw a brick.

[James Pietragallo]

That's it. So accused here, he's going to testify. And on the stand, Gary admits that he beat Eddie to death in an attempt to burglarize his home. He made the admission while being questioned here. Now, his whole strategy is, yes, I did it, but for all the right reasons, essentially. So the jury's hearing the tape. They also hear the tape recording of his full confession of killing Eddie as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So, like, okay. And he admitted that. Is his voice on the tape. I don't know what the. Yeah. And crazy. He's not really. He knows right from wrong. I mean, they'd have to think he's so delusional that he could look at one person and see another person. I guess that's the Only way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, I mean, but. But if he sees, I don't know, he sees his dad.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, you'd have to think he was so delusional that. Yeah, he sees things. Literally has hallucinations, which is the definition of delusional. So. Oh, I mean, that's him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do it.

[James Pietragallo]

That's a tough one. Yeah, that's a. That's a tough fucking thing to convince people of. I was seeing my daddy. Were you now? Especially. Especially if he's sitting on the stand seeming reasonably lucid.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You're like. Unless he gets up on the stand and starts doing like the Three Stooges, slapping his face up and down and fucking doing that shit and doing some weird fucking Daffy Duck shit running around the room, I don't think you're going to get away with this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Tough to do.

[James Pietragallo]

The verdict comes in. He's found guilty of everything. Car theft, burglary, murder, you name it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The whole damn thing.

[James Pietragallo]

Whole wall of wax. He is guilty. That's a Freddy Cash. Now the other murders get brought up during sentencing. They get submitted over defense objections here obviously. So that's. They think that's going to be an issue later. Walker does so defense here. During their final arguments, the public defender begged the jurors to spare Walker's life because of his lengthy documented history of mental illness.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

He said an illness was noticed 20 years ago. He was sick then and continued to be sick treatment after treatment after treatment. He argued the fact that Walker had never been convicted of a violent crime in his life but committed a series of killings within a three week period. That's evidence that he's fucking crazy. K. He just all of a sudden goes nuts and goes on a murder spree. Who the hell does that? That's insane. He said that Walker's remorse, his eagerness to do anything he could to help authorities recover the bodies and resolve the cases indicated that he has some worth and shouldn't be sentenced to death. He has some worth in society, at least in prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, yeah, we can, we can use him in one way or another.

[James Pietragallo]

Not sure how, but you know what I mean? That's what he's saying. He's like, I don't know how we're going to do it, but we'll figure it out. He said, quote, in a small pitiful way, he wanted to try and make things right. Far too little, far too late. But he tried. Okay. He is sentenced to you, sir, a fuck off death penalty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hey.

[James Pietragallo]

Plus other bunch of other years too. Forever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's got no redeeming qualities.

[James Pietragallo]

They said, we've. We found nothing to be redeeming.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We've weighed this very carefully. We got out of deli scale and.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, we really put the bass in the grocery store. The real good one came up zero. Zero. But this arugula weighs three quarters of a pound, so that's good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But he is zero.

[James Pietragallo]

He is zero. So he says he's gonna appeal. His public defender said one matter that to be stressed on appeal is the prosecution's use of other pending murder charges that he hasn't even been convicted of yet for during the penalty phase. They use that to convince the jury. He said, as far as we've been able to determine, this is a case of first impression. We have a unique set of. Set of circumstances. So they think they can get an appeal. June 1985 is the Valerie Shaw Hartzell trial. Okay. Now, defense here, this is a big one in town too. It's a big old deal here in Tulsa. So his defense attorney told the jury to consider the horrible childhood he was subjected to. Consider it and will be related by expert testimony of two qualified psychiatrists. Before 1984, he had never hurt a single soul. Can you tell me in 19 days he wasn't crazy, that something didn't happen?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hmm.

[James Pietragallo]

So he's going with this. This didn't work in the last trial, but he's gonna try it again. They also talk about his past beating, sexual abuse, crushed testicles and the like. Washtub beatings, testicles, you know. So they said that he has been in and out of state and federal mental institutions 11 times. Diagnosed schizophrenic, manic depressive and paranoid, saying, quote, he was wildly hallucinating and incredibly angry when he admitted. When admitted to a Springfield mental Institution in 1982. They said each time he was admitted, doctors would regulate the symptoms with mood altering drugs, then release them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Which is kind of their job.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's.

[James Pietragallo]

It's a state run facility, so it's not a private place where they're going to keep you forever. It's a. I'm not saying that's good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

I'm just saying the state is cheap and they're not going to fucking pay for you to be in a mental institution forever. Especially in the 80s when all that shit was getting slashed to nothing. Yeah, Mental health care was decimated in the 80s. I mean, fuck it, we've never recovered.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It took. It's taken till today to start getting people to be. To accept it and actually, actually give it a run again.

[James Pietragallo]

But I mean, the systems aren't there anymore and they'll never be there because all the funding was slashed for them. So no one's ever going to put more funding into that. That's never going to happen. So that's what's going on. Yeah. Anyway, they said doctors would just send him on his way. They said Walker's mental history and abuse and withdrawal from mood altering medication pushed him to commit murder. He said, quote, he had an incredibly bizarre behavior after he was kicked out of the mental Institution on February 7, 1984. On May 25, he killed Valerie Hartzell Shaw. So they're saying that he was released and he was off his meds and the withdrawal from his meds and everything else made him do all of this from February to May. Took three months for him to really get it going. But interesting. Now the defense says, why are you blaming him? He wasn't alone when he attacked Valerie Shaw Hartzell. He's got an accomplice, right? Oh, yeah. In his opening statement, they claim that several pieces of evidence raised the possibility that Walker may have been with another man when he allegedly kidnapped Hartzell from a Tulsa shopping center, held her overnight and killed her. Now, he's made repeated statements to authorities saying he killed the woman and acted alone. But his defense is going to say different. He tells a seven man, five woman jury that a drive in bank teller will testify that he saw Hartzell on the day of her death with Walker and another man. Oh yeah. Walker's attorney admitted a number of facts tie his client to the murder, including the discovery of fingerprints inside her pickup truck, quote. But as many facts are known in the case, that many more are unknown. Not only were the fingerprints of Gary Walker found, but there were fingerprints of. On some other person or persons. Wow. Now they also. The defense accuses the police of ignoring the bank tellers report said that the teller, Terry McBroom on two separate occasions identified both the woman and Walker from photographs but couldn't identify the other guy. I think this person was just mistaken. There's no evidence of a second person here whatsoever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But he wants that person to be credited terribly.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Real bad. And really push that on the second person. So the prosecution here says no, probably didn't. Yeah, there's no two guys. He said the. The prosecutor said I didn't see any evidence that I considered to be credible that there was more than one person involved in any of the Walker homicides. As far as a responsible investigation that was considered. Considered.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Now here's where the second killer theory Came from.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's go.

[James Pietragallo]

Not only the bank teller, but apparently there was several. They said that McBroom, the bank teller's on the stand, they're talking about the truck color, and he got the truck color wrong.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Pietragallo]

So he said, I'm just sure it was a truck. So the district attorney said, isn't it true you've changed your version of the story three times already? Uh, oh, different colors, different people. And he said, rick Broom, the teller, there's several versions of the story. I've lived the story many, many times. Okay? That doesn't mean shit. Everything you say dismissed at that point. Also, the problem is Emil Shaw, who is Valerie's mother, told reporters on May 31, 1984, that her daughter had been seen with two men at the. At the bank. So she heard that report from the cops. The cops told her the teller said she was with two men. She goes to the newspaper and tells them, and now everybody says there's two men. Okay, it was shit. They didn't want released yet. But there's another person here, Sally Dick, who owns a grocery store in Keatonville, a town west of Claremore on State Highway 20. And Walker came into Dick's store on the day of the murder and bought two soft drinks. She said he bought a Pepsi Cola and an Orange Crush. We know this because they found the bottles in Valerie's truck later.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, at Walker's preliminary hearing, a former sheriff said that Walker told him he stopped at the store after he killed Valerie. So why did he buy two different sodas? They're saying that that's proof there was two people. Bought a Pepsi and an Orange Crush.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I got two drinks all the time.

[James Pietragallo]

I was just gonna say maybe he wants Orange later and Pepsi now. Who knows?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I do that so much.

[James Pietragallo]

It definitely doesn't mean there's two fucking people. Yeah, we were on the road. I bought a Mexican Coke and a Mexican 7 up. Does that mean that there's two of us?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just one guy?

[James Pietragallo]

Just me. Just got him for later? Yeah, just for later. That's all. They said that Walker, in many of his interviews with police, was rather vague about whether he bought the sodas before or the strangling. So they said one of them might have been for her. We don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Pietragallo]

So the verdict here comes in. They find him guilty of kidnapping and killing Valerie, obviously, which is not a surprise, for my opinion, anyway, not a surprise. But the jury reached its verdicts of kidnapping and first degree murder charges at 12:40pm after returning to the courtroom at 10am a couple hours earlier to resume deliberations that were suspended Friday night. At 11:40pm because of an 11 to 1 deadlock, there was a holdout.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck?

[James Pietragallo]

I guess convinced by the second, either way he was. Even if there was two guys, he was one of them. What are we talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So the prosecutor said they were surprised by the lengthy deliberation, but they said it's difficult for a jury, any jury, to find someone guilty of first degree murder based on what comes from that. He said the jurors took their responsibility very seriously. And he said, I'm satisfied that they reached a fair verdict. The defense attorney was disappointed by the verdict. Really? Do you expect. Wow, some people are just real optimistic. Yeah, some people just expect the sun to shine, don't they? Just like it's going to be out. He said, I think the jury had to ignore some unrefuted testimony given by two psychiatrists that Walker was insane. He said, this man is, was and continues to be insane. That's what his lawyer says. Yeah. Yeah. He says he believes the sentencing phase of the trial will go much quicker since the jury has come to grips with the problem of finding somebody guilty of first degree murder. And he said that for Walker's sake, he would have preferred to continue through Saturday with the sentencing phase despite the weariness of all involved. Instead, they waited till Monday. Sentencing comes around you, sir. A fuck off. Death penalty plus 110 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

All consecutive sentences too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my.

[James Pietragallo]

Just all end to end, lined up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So in trouble.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, absolutely. They deliberated nine hours over two days, by the way, for this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. They jurors deliberated until late Monday but announced they were split 7 to 5 on a recommendation of a sentence for Walker for death. Then the jury came back and said they had, you know, all figured out. We got it. So now they're talking about, do we start doing plea deals for this guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Or what do we?

[James Pietragallo]

Well, the district attorney said that he spoke with his lawyer, with Walker's lawyer after the second death penalty was given to Walker. He said the conversation centered around the state entertaining plea deals of something less than death on the first degree murder charge. He said that it was decided to recommend the maximum sentence on all other charges, but not the death penalty. There he said, we agreed that there was little likelihood that there would not be a conviction if the case went to trial. So what are we talking about here? The DA said that he could not see spending several thousand dollars of the state's and county's money to obtain a third death penalty conviction against Walker, which would just be subject to appeal anyway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it's. Yeah, it's useless. We're never gonna cash that one in.

[James Pietragallo]

And it's gonna. It's years and years and years of more appeals we have to go through because it's a huge pain in the ass. They said they make a deal with no appeals and then he's put away and that's the end of it. We can all forget about it. He said that the county sentences cannot be appealed. After a 10 day period, Walker informed the judge that he's satisfied with the way his representation has represented him. And yeah, now they say this is. He said, I think common sense tells you even that after a while cost effectiveness does come into play at some point. We're just wasting money on trials and appeals, trying to be cost effective. He's already fucking going away, which makes sense. Totally. So he said, I feel very. This is the prosecutor. I feel very strongly we could get a third death penalty. He's already got two death penalties against him and obviously he can only be put to death once. Yeah. So more ain't gonna help. So on September 4, 1985, he pleads no contest in the Hilburn murder and is sentenced to you, sir, again, may fuck off. Life in prison without parole and a bunch of other shit too. Next day or two days later, they're talking about Janet Jewell. Is there gonna be a trial there? Look like it. He enters a plea of no contest to all four felony counts against him there as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Terrific.

[James Pietragallo]

That's first degree murder, first degree rape, kidnapping, all this shit he is gonna be sentenced to you, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison without parole on the murder and rape charges, then 10 years each on the kidnapping charge and a fourth charge of uttering a forged instrument. And all these sentences run consecutive, not concurrent too, so everything all consecutive.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's gonna. He's so busy just all this time. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

So much time. So many places. July 1986, July 25, the Court of Criminal Appeals upholds his conviction in the Eddie Cash murder case. Subsequent appeals are gonna go to the US District Court. Now, August 1986 in Kentucky, Margaret Ann Bell Lydich. Remember he dumped her off in Kentucky, killed her over there. That trial here they're talking about, he's going to be flown to Kentucky for a court appearance. The Commonwealth Attorney said he's expected to be flown to Kentucky to face a murder charge from that. The body was found in the wooded area off Kentucky139 south, about three miles from Princeton. That is the. The hay bale woman who was found in the hay. They said the process of bringing him to Kentucky on the murder charge has been going on for about six months and involved cooperation between five different agencies.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Because you got to get everybody involved. They're flying him there. Yeah, he's got to get over here. Then the state people have to have. I'm sure the FAA is involved. If he's. I don't know. Maybe. Who the fuck knows? I don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Government ship.

[James Pietragallo]

Who knows? I don't know. So they were scheduled to be in court Thursday, but weather problems with the flight were scheduled to expect flight schedule. We're pushing it all back to Friday. Yeah, he's expected to plead guilty here in Kentucky. But who the hell knows if he doesn't plead? If he pleads not guilty, who knows he can. He then will never know we're gonna have an arraignment. So he ends up pleading guilty again, pleads guilty and receives. You sir, may fuck off. Another life sentence without parole in Kentucky as well. The chief prosecutor said he had been almost certain that Walker would admit to the kidnapping and rape of Margaret Bell. He said her body was found June 8th off Kentucky139, three miles from Princeton. And so Walker had been transported to the Kentucky State Penitentiary to be held for trial. But he pleads guilty. So they send his ass back to Oklahoma. That's life plus 20 years. Fuck off again. Yeah. Now, July 12th, 1986, you remember Marshall George Cummings Jr. Where's he been? Trailer man there? Well, he's been busy himself. Okay, I'll read this from the Tulsa world newspaper. A 36 year old Tulsa man being held in Tulsa County Jail for questioning in the murder of Deronda Gay Roy last week was with convicted murderer Gary Allen Walker the night Walker was arrested. MARSHALL George Cummings Jr. Was arrested by Tulsa police on outstanding traffic warrants after Rogers county authorities pinpointed his whereabouts Friday. Cummings, a friend of the Roy family, was the last known person to see Mrs. Roy at about 10pm on Pine street and Sheridan Road the night she was killed. The 24 year old beggswoman's nude body was found in a secluded area of the Rocky Point Recreation area. Her bra was wrapped around her neck and she was strangled. The Rogers county asked Tulsa to place a hold on Cummings to allow them to question him. The hold, which required Tulsa to notify Rogers county authorities when Cummings was released, was still in effect and they said Cummings is being held on two charges of no car insurance. That's who's being held on a $225 bond on each count there. And a $60 bond for speeding and a $25 bond for no inspection sticker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Traffic being held on.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, traffic is being held on. Literally $310 worth of bond, and he can't make it. The Rogers county prosecutor said there are similarities in the way Mrs. Roy was killed and the Walker murders, particularly the murder of Valerie Shaw Hartzell. The district attorney said that the method of strangulation was the same and both women's bodies were placed. Not thrown in secluded areas. Oh, placed very specifically so. That's a weird touch.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's frightening. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

What's going on? You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Which one is which?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Yeah. That's fucking crazy. July 26, 1986. The Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals has unanimously upheld the death sentence sentence of Gary Allen Walker, who was convicted of killing a broken arrow man two years ago. Walker also has been found guilty of murdering three women. As we know about there. So they said that Walker was. They keep talking about insanity. And the judge, Ed Parks, who presided over the three member appeals court, wrote the court's opinion upholding the death sentence and said the evidence in this case reveals that the appellant, in particularly callous manner, bludgeoned an elderly man to death with a brick and strangled him with the cord from his own vacuum cleaner.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Pietragallo]

Would it have been less if he brought his own like his vacuum cleaner to strangle him with? It would be, yeah, his own. Put a little stank on it. December 1986. The US Supreme Court refuses to hear an appeal from Gary Allen Walker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not a word out of you, sir.

[James Pietragallo]

They declined to hear it. Yeah, him and another guy, another murderer from Oklahoma. They were rejected. All were decided by votes of 7 to 2. So the only ones that were dissenting were William Brennan and Thurgood Marshall, who opposed the death penalty. So they said no matter what, they're voting against it. February 21st, 1987. Old Marshall Cummings Jr. There. Oh, boy. He pleads no contest to second degree murder in that strangulation as well. So he's sentenced to 25 years in prison with half the term suspended. Holy shit. That's quite the plea bargain. He strangled a woman.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He got 10 years.

[James Pietragallo]

25 years. Has a 12 and a half.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He got 12 and a half? Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

What the fuck?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

He'd been charged. Wow. They must not have had good evidence.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sweet deal. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

That's the only thing I could think of, because otherwise they Wouldn't. If that's a death penalty eligible case, they're not going to be like, yeah, give him 12 and a half. It's fine. So. Wow. That is fucking crazy. His arrest. This is so weird because these two guys just like, were attracted to each other.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

As far as friends, like, I like to strangle women and rape them. Me too. Do you think they talked about it or you think they just. Yeah. Do you think it was just positive and negative ends attracted to each other?

[Jimmy Whisman]

They gotta know, Right. If you're friends with somebody long enough, you know what they. You know, some of the.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, you knew them a day. He didn't even know him two hours. They had a few beers and they went back to the trailer to drink. Who knows if they're talking about murder yet they can't possibly. That'd be crazy, wouldn't it?

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know what I like to do?

[James Pietragallo]

I mean. Yeah. Woof. That sounds weird. Anyway, it's getting late. I'm gonna run. See me looking at my watch here? So, June 1, 1988. He wants, Gary wants a competency trial. He said that if the jury finds that he was incompetent and didn't understand the charges against him and could not aid in his legal defense, that the murder conviction could be nullified.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

So the district judge ruled that it's still feasible for a Tulsa jury to determine if Walker was competent when he can. When he was convicted four years ago. So, yeah, he set a mental health trial up for September 12, 1988, which is interesting here. No competency hearing was held in November 84, when he was tried for the death of Eddie Cash. They didn't have a competency hearing. They just had psychiatrist testify for him. So that's very interesting. This is his first actual competency test. Yeah. Apparently in the Hartzell trial, a judge denied funds for additional mental testing for him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Now, the assistant Appellate public defender, Lloyd McCoy, said that if brain tests had been authorized, there's a good possibility that a brain tumor would have been detected.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Like he must have a fucking brain tumor if he's acting like this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a good possibility.

[James Pietragallo]

I mean. Yeah, it seems like it. Christ. So he is found competent, they said after a trial for this or court hearing, they said there's clear and convincing evidence. He failed to present clear and convincing evidence that he was incompetent and could not aid in his defense and didn't understand the nature of his charge. So he can keep on fucking off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Pietragallo]

November of 1988. There is another federal case that if it goes a certain way, could wipe away his death penalty. Oh, yes, they say, quote, if a federal court decision in another Oklahoma case stands up, the Tulsa county death sentence of convicted multiple murderer Gary Allen Walker will be reversed. A prosecutor said. Moreover, the ruling threatens all Oklahoma death sentences. In particular jeopardy. In particular jeopardy are those cases where a defendant offered any kind of mitigating evidence at all. Okay, they said that Walker's death sentence is history if this is law. The new one. Last month, apparently, the 10th U.S. circuit Court of Appeals overturned in 1960, 78 death sentence handed to Robin Leroy Parks. The simple absence of the word mirror from a standard instruction to Oklahoma jurors was crucial in the decision. Mirror an exclusion in a 33 page decision. The circuit court spent five pages on it. The prosecutor said it's a little surprising that a modifier like merely has such a significance. Yeah. And they said that death penalty cases receive an incredible amount of scrutiny. As they should, they said. By a 6 to 4 vote, the 10th Circuit reduced parks sentence to life. It determined if an instruction to Oklahoma county jurors not be influenced by scent, sympathy, sentimentality, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, that doesn't go through and his shit stands. 1990. He's gonna appeal the Valerie Shaw Hartzell thing here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just that one?

[James Pietragallo]

Yes, just that one. Citing U.S. supreme Court rulings, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals said it was an error to show Gary Allen Walker's videotaped confession to the jury. The confession leading to the reversal of his conviction could happen in Rogers County. Um, in Rogers County, Walker signed a waiver attesting that he was advised of his rights and didn't want a lawyer to be present there during that. Walker was convicted of the kidnapping, obviously. Um, so also improper confession. His public defender is appointed to represent him and said that he counseled the appellate for approximately an hour and a half on June 2, 6th and two hours on the 7th, and said that he informed Walker that he'd be present in any future interviews with authorities, that the appellant would be warned of any attempts to move him. So think about what that is. He gets arrested. He has a lawyer, Tulsa county public defender. The counsel tells him, you know, he informed him that I'll be present in all future interviews and told the cops the same thing. If you interview him, talk to me with. The authorities said that he would be also, they told him that the lawyer will be told if there's any attempts to move him to a different facility. So essentially, he's got a beg to Talk to you after that and say, I don't want my lawyer. I waive my Miranda rights. Like Dahmer did.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, Right, Right.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why do they want to do that?

[James Pietragallo]

This lawyer also said that he made an agreement with the prosecutor to the effect that Gary would have a counsel present before any future questioning. They question him already about Eddie Cash. This is about Hartzell. Because this is a separate county. He had to go be questioned for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Pietragallo]

So on June 7, this lawyer represented him in an arraignment in Tulsa county on information alleging three counts of first degree murder. One of These was for Ms. Hartzell, of course. Shortly after the arraignment, after he'd been taken back to the Tulsa county jail, Walker was informed by the authorities that he was going to be moved to Rogers County. At that time, he asked to see his attorney. An attempt was made to call the attorney, but he couldn't be located right away, so they just moved him to Rogers county without being afforded the opportunity to speak with his attorney. On the morning of June 8, 1984, he was taken to Rogers County Sheriff's Office, where video equipment was already set up. They were waiting for him. He was advised of his rights and did not request his lawyer be present. He signed a waiver and everything. He was then asked questions, and he gave a full confession. Now, the decision is. Upon review of this case, we have found the facts to be particularly egregious and troubling. Why we were able to affirm, were we able to affirm we would do so, convinced that the appellant wholly deserved the punishment he received. However, it's the duty of this court to determine whether the appellant received a fair trial. They said, although there's a specific case called Edwards, although that case dealt specifically with requests for counsel made by an accused during a custodial interrogation, the court also found that an accused, having expressed his desire to deal with police only through counsel, is not subject to further interrogation by authorities until counsel has been made available to him, unless the accused himself initiates further communication exchanges or conversations. Like, remember, they told Dahmer, you have to call us. We can't call you. You have to tell the jailer, I want to see those people. Call him, or else it's illegal and we can't do it. They didn't do that here. That's the fucking problem. They cut corners. They got so excited, they cut some corners, they said. Although the appellant statements in his first confession made in Tulsa county were much the same as those made in the videotape Conf. Confession in Rogers County. We cannot find that the Rogers county confession was merely cumulative or that it was harmless error for the trial court to admit it to evidence. Conviction overturned.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

Got out of it. Now the prosecutor's office, they say, oh, we're going to retry him for that. Don't you worry about that. But the District attorney, Patrick Abital, has disqualified his office for me trying the murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Pietragallo]

He said the state attorney general's office had assured him that an experienced prosecutor will be assigned. Abital said a prosecutor would be named soon. Abital said he didn't like having to withdraw. He said, I think it's my job to retry it. There's no question we could do an efficient job, but I didn't want to do anything to jeopardize the case. In the light of the district attorney's controversy, questions arose about a possible conflict of interest or appearance of impropriety because Jack Jordan, Jr. Jack Gordon Jr. One of Walker's attorneys, represented the DA Abatol before the Oklahoma Supreme Court in a battle over whether Abatol or Donna Priori was the real district attorney.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So they're just gonna muddy this so much that they're gonna lose everything.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. So they're gonna give it to another prosecutor. So it doesn't look bad. So it doesn't look like these two guys are there. So 1991, there's a retrial for that, don't you worry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

In opening statements, they said that, you know, they're trying to pull the same thing. He was insane.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You should have seen him slashing prices. He was insane.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a wild man.

[James Pietragallo]

He's a wild man. He said that in no way he understood the wrongfulness of his acts. Now the jury disagrees and found him guilty as. Fuck. Guilty. And the sentencing here, though, you, sir, may find off life without parole.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not good.

[James Pietragallo]

That's plus a bunch more.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. All right.

[James Pietragallo]

But he's still only got one death sentence left.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just the one.

[James Pietragallo]

Just the one. His total. His total sentences are death, six, life without paroles and 700 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Most of it in consecutive sentences.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. What are the.

[James Pietragallo]

What are we doing here?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Would you rather do.

[James Pietragallo]

What's the difference? This is the. The biggest six of one, half dozen of the other ever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's also dumb. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You're going to kill me. I'll either serve six life sentences or 700 years, which is more than six lives by far.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[James Pietragallo]

So that's insane. Anyway, Valerie's mom writes an editorial, by the way, this is called a mother's response. June 16, 1991, quote, I write this letter in the hope that somehow the people of Oklahoma will understand that the retrial of Gary Allen Walker for the murder of Valerie Shaw Hartzell was something we believe had to be done. There's a lot of people saying, why are we doing this? He's got a death sentence, five fucking life sentences and hundreds of years in jail. What's the fucking difference at this point?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I guess it's called justice.

[James Pietragallo]

That's it. A lot of people, though, are saying it's called tax money. And, you know, we cut. We're slashing school budgets, and we're gonna try this kid again. Like, what are we doing here? We'll try this idiot again. But I get it if the family, they want their day in court, too. So it makes sense. Everybody's view is plausible here, in my opinion, certainly. How could we not try to see that justice was carried out? How could I, as her mother, not do everything possible to see that her murderer was punished to the fullest extent of the law? My daughter was the only. Only one of five people that Gary Allen Walker murdered during May 19, 1984. He was tried, convicted, and given the death penalty in two of these murders. Valerie's was one of them. The other families were convinced to accept a plea bargain for life imprisonment. Perhaps not knowing that life imprisonment does not necessarily mean imprisonment for the rest of your life. These were life without parole. So they do in this case, which she knows that. That's intellectually dishonest. I'll be honest. You know what I mean? That's. She knows what she's doing, and that's not. It's not what he was sentenced to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So strategic game there.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, it's factually wrong, but trying to fire people up. But that's fine. Your daughter's dead. I get it. So she said the criminal becomes eligible for parole and can actually be released from prison after a few years. Oh, not if it's life without parole plus 700 years. That's not gonna happen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Maybe on a couple of things, but not, you know, I mean, like, maybe a charge will get knocked off, but that's because he's been in prison for a while.

[James Pietragallo]

Exactly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Give us some more time. Another one's gonna get knocked off. If he sticks around for 700 years, they're all gonna get knocked off.

[James Pietragallo]

All of them. Yeah, eventually. So, I mean, like I said, I totally understand where the woman's coming from, but that's just not honest. So the trial and conviction of Walker for the murder of Valerie was overturned by the Oklahoma Court of Appeals because, according to them, Walker's, quote, rights had been violated. Never put rights in quotes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We've all got. He's got rights.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, we all have rights. And you would want rights, too. So that's one thing I don't like is like, if someone gets caught for some people, like, he shouldn't have any rights. No, no, we are better than them. That's the point. We're. Yeah, we're actually doing this in, in a realistic way that, you know, reasonable. And we're humans.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

You know, and we're, we're not animals. So that's the difference. That's how we show them that they're wrong. Yeah, we don't act like animals. So anyway, so he said his rights have been violated. Now he only has one death penalty. Will that one be overturned also? Fucking maybe if it wasn't done. Right. That's how we do. Shit. Rogers County District Attorney Gene Hayes Haines and the family of Valerie Shaw Hartzell wanted another trial. We felt, and still feel that Walker deserves the death penalty. But in this trial, the jury was not even allowed to vote on it. Oh. Because they didn't want to deal with the appeals of it. So that's what they were going for was life without. That's the point. Judge James Sontag of Nawata county, in his infinite wisdom, decided to deny the prosecution the right to put on the aggravating circumstances that would allow the jury the right to consider the death penalty. In my opinion, Judge Sontag became judge and jury. The justice system failed. Did we read off the list of his sentences?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's got 700 years plus death, plus life. Yeah, I think justice was served.

[James Pietragallo]

I mean, it's. Yeah, it sucks because obviously, obviously you'd like to take the guy and kill him 17 times over and make you feel better for your daughter, but that's just not how life works.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You'd love for it to be the dark ages where you get to just go home, down, slaughter the man, but.

[James Pietragallo]

That'S not how we, we do things. That's fine. Like I said, I get her emotions. It's totally understandable. Valerie's husband and son, my other two daughters. And I have not. Not only have to suffer the overwhelming grief of losing a wife, mother, sister and daughter at the hands of a cold blooded murderer, but we also have to suffer again and again at the hands of the, quote, criminal justice system.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Criminal justice system.

[James Pietragallo]

They tried him once. Death penalty. They tried him again. Life without parole. What? How are they abusing you and kicking you? I don't understand it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a criminal justice system.

[James Pietragallo]

Fucking shit. Yeah. They didn't tell you to go fuck off. They gave you what you wanted. If she wasn't famous, they would have said, listen, we're taking a plea deal. If this lady wasn't an editorial writing machine, they would have just taken the plea deal. I bet if the family didn't care, they don't want to fuck, why bother with all this? They could have got the same sentence just doing a plea deal with them. So she says. I just want to thank everyone who supported us in this effort. It's been difficult. It's been a difficult time for our family. But it does help to know there are many out there who do care about justice and become just as enraged as we do when justice does not prevail. But, yeah, again, that's just. If it was you up there or your kid up there and they maybe didn't do it, you'd want every chance to get at it. Not that this guy deserves that, but everybody does. Unfortunately, if one person gets it, we all do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Pietragallo]

That's it. So, March, did you bring enough gum for everybody? No. Well, sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Throw it away.

[James Pietragallo]

Throw it away. March 1994. He is set to be executed already. So he's been given though a stay of execution to file a petition for post conviction relief. A judge, U.S. district Judge, scheduled the execution, and after the petition was filed, the Oklahoma Attorney General's Office has until May 23rd to file a response here. So anyway, he's got all this shit going on. 1999, he wants clemency.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, really?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, he wants clemency.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He takes it all back.

[James Pietragallo]

Well, his attorney said that they may ask the court to stop the requested execution of him because of his physical and mental condition. He's not feeling real well. Yeah, you know, Gerald McCoy, not fun of Oklahoma City, said his client's condition may have left him incompetent to be executed. He said if a person cannot. He said a person cannot be executed if he doesn't understand why he's being put to death. McCoy also plans to ask the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board for clemency. If they grant clemency, it would have to be approved by the governor as well. And the governor is a very staunch death penalty supporter, so that ain't gonna fucking happen. The lawyer said, I think any inmate should ask for clemency even though we have a Bunch of hard headed and hard hearted people. If we don't continue the process, it may go away. That's fair then. January 12, 2000. My man's out of options here. His lawyer McCoy said that he's exhausted all of his appeals and said after a discussion with my client and having evaluated all the issues, we came to a mutual conclusion that we would have to accept our fate. I think you're using our a little loosely here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

He's getting executed. You're gonna go home to your nice house and fucking eat dinner. What are you talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He just lost.

[James Pietragallo]

Hey. Yeah. Yeah. He said there's no legal avenues left for us to appeal. He says appealed to every appropriate court and must abide by their decisions. Although we vehemently disagree with them. January 13, 2000 is execution day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go. That's fast.

[James Pietragallo]

That's pretty fast. Sixteen years. It's not. It would have been sooner.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pretty average, but it seems pretty fast.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Fucking crazy. So he has, I guess some of his relatives there. He had a final visit from his two sisters, niece and two cousins came to see him. Last meal, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Pietragallo]

He's got a last meal. What do you think it is, Jimmy?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Steak?

[James Pietragallo]

Close.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Three cheeseburgers.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a lot.

[James Pietragallo]

Fucking cheeseburgers are good, man. It's hard to turn down a cheeseburger. Three cheeseburgers with extra salt. Because blood pressure be damned. Fuck it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who gives a fuck at this point?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Three sliced tomatoes. The salt might have been for the tomatoes maybe. Yeah, because they're good with a little salt on. French fries. And a strawberry malt malt. He had like a teenage Drive in 1950s Otter.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What exactly is the difference between a malt and a shake?

[James Pietragallo]

The malt is. A malt is a specific thing that you put in it. Malt, like the shit that's in Whoppers.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Like that's in it. It's a different taste.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, it's that. It's that shit in the center of a Whopper.

[James Pietragallo]

There's shit in the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not like a burger. If anybody listening gives a fuck about that.

[James Pietragallo]

No, no, the Malt Milk Balls. Yeah, but it's in like, you know, sprinkled form, the malt is in there with that thing. Because I asked somebody that once. Now, during his execution, more than 30 family members of the victims gathered to watch this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, yeah. A dozen of Eddie Cash's relatives, including his daughter who found him. Doug Hilburn, hoped that his wife. Hilburn there. He hoped that Walker would admit wrongdoing and seek forgiveness before the execution, which he tended with his family. Emily Pearson, who is Valerie Shaw Hartzell's mother. Before the execution she tore death row and was unaffected by it. Didn't feel bad at all and expressed nervousness about the last minute delays of this. That it might not happen. God, she is bloodthirsty. Oh, shit. She attended with her husband, daughter, son in law, Valerie's uncle and pastor. And they all got together and they said they hoped the execution would end. Sixteen and a half years of grief altogether. I think 31 people from the families. Now his last words. He had a two minute statement where he apologized several times.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seven times or several times.

[James Pietragallo]

Several. Several times. He said, I hope that when I go that the hate that you have and it's natural for you to hate me, that you would let that go with me. Which is actually a nice thing to say. Hey, listen, once I'm dead, don't let this rule your life.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't hang on to it, you fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

This is all you've been doing for 20 years. And it's ridiculous. Now there you go. He is pronounced dead, executed by lethal injection.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Pietragallo]

Now in media there honestly have not been a whole lot about this guy. Somehow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's a lot of people to kill to not be mentioned very much.

[James Pietragallo]

Dude. And then his spree. Otherwise too many people he rape and kidnapping. But this guy is like. He's a fucking serial killer and a bad one. I mean not even a good. Not even like a borderline. He's a bad fucking guy. Imagine if he kept going, he would have killed how many people? So there was something in 2007, the crime stories show. I don't even know what channel that's on or was on at the time. They did a show called the Roaming Rapist.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Pietragallo]

On him. So there's that once.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

And then there's an 82 page long book which is nothing. You get like an Ann rule book. It's like 980 pages. 80 pages is a pamphlet, for Christ's sake. I was like, oh, no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, it feels like.

[James Pietragallo]

But I bought it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

More than 80 pages in it.

[James Pietragallo]

I think this has 115 in this thing. So I put together a longer book. But I also did use a couple of things that they had in the book. It's called Oklahoma's Death Row. The End of Gary Allen Walker by Cassandra Moore. So there you go. That's. I got to give credit where credit's due. They did put together a pamphlet on the person. So they get credit for that. So there you go, everybody. There is Potaw, Oklahoma.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And what the man's terrible.

[James Pietragallo]

Bad, bad, bad individual man. That's a bad guy. So if you enjoyed that story, or I should say if you enjoyed the way we told the story, because you should enjoy that story. It's a terrible story. Get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars. It helps so much. We don't know why, but it really does help drive the show up the charts and that helps people see it. And then we get more listeners and everybody's happier. So do that, please. And then also head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your tickets for live shows, baby. First up, the virtual live show. You guys, you've seen all the pictures I know people follow on social media. They've seen all the pictures. All people posting. They have a good time. We put on a fucking hell of a live show. We throw down, period. Our shit is funny. We know what we're doing. And these virtual live shows are just as good as any live show. You don't even have to leave your damn house with warm up pants on with your own booze in your own house. Just like a regular live show. We're gonna have costumes because it's Halloween. It happens Thursday 30th October. It's available for two weeks after that. And we're gonna have a crazy story with a Halloweeny theme and everything. So you really wanted to get this. It's going to be so much fun. Shut up and give me murder.com and then there's a few tickets left for Philadelphia in December. DC is completely sold out, totally. Dc we released some of ours that we had, so now there is a few left. I don't know, not a lot, few dozen maybe, but that's it. So get in there and get your tickets for that as well. Also get yourself, oh actually follow on social media, smalltownmurder on Instagram, Smalltown Pot on Facebook. Then get yourself patreon. Patreon.com CrimeInSports, which is the name of our other podcast you should be listening to, along with your stupid opinions as well, which is fucking hilarious. You get Patreon. First of all, anybody $5 a month or above, immediately upon subscription, you're gonna get hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before. And there is good shit in there too. It's an awesome catalog, so well worth $5. Then you get new ones every other week. As if that wasn't enough. And this Week, which you're going to get like we always do. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all. This week for crime and sports, we are going to talk about somebody with almost as many rape accusations as this guy, Deshaun Watson here, who is a mess and I still in the league somehow, right? None of these charges come to fruition. It's all a legend. We don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he's there.

[James Pietragallo]

He's there. I mean, he's, you know, owns a uniform that they give him. He's got a locker with his name on it. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He should show up then.

[James Pietragallo]

For small town murder, we're gonna talk about. We're gonna do Internet salad again, which is where it's just a little breather here, where it's gonna be just fun and comedy. We're gonna go all over the Internet like we do and just make fun of anything that's happening. A little bit without. No politics is our rule here. Nothing that's no fun. We don't want to hear that shit from us anyway. So this will be a. To get your mind off of the world. We will talk about that comedy festival in Saudi Arabia a bit though, because we've been asked a lot about that, so. So we definitely want to give our opinions there. That's patreon.com crimeandsports and in addition to that, you get a shout out at the end of the show too, which is coming up in a second. But you also get every goddamn thing that we do. Crime and sports. Your stupid opinion. Small town Murder, all ad free with your subscription as well. You can't fucking beat that. Ad free. That's amazing stuff here. And you get a shout out. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most fan favorite fantastic people in the world who keep this show going. And honestly are just people we fucking love. Give me a goddamn. Give me the list, Jimmy. I need it right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This week's executive producers are Adrian and Jason, who just got engaged. Danae Pruner told me she's in a very nice.

[James Pietragallo]

Congrats.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Enjoy your engagement. Gary Howard in Grayson, Kentucky. I guess you're not doing Instagram anymore. What did you say?

[James Pietragallo]

I said good luck.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, that's not the best Verazan. Thank you, Tim. And then.

[James Pietragallo]

Isn't that a rice. A Rice brand.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is it? I don't.

[James Pietragallo]

Like a New Orleans rice thing. Oh, Zataran. Never mind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Zatarans.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, I remember the commercial. Okay, never mind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And the Payoneer Inc. Or Pioneer. I don't know they gave us a very nice thank you so much and exact solutions did it too. For all your tax and payoneer needs. See them, I guess.

[James Pietragallo]

Excellent.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thank you very much.

[James Pietragallo]

Jessica Lane, so much also.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thanks, Jessica. Yes. Pay your taxes, don't go to jail. Other producers this week, Peyton Meadows, Happy hour checking in. Lakenhurst, New Jersey. Ryan Bender. I don't know where that is. Like, oh, Lakehurst, not Lake and Hearst, New Jersey. Usually in Texas.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shiraz, I think. Chris Shiraz, Lexi Padrone, Elisa Sells, Kate Palmer, Cindy Shepherd, John with No Last name BK McGinnis, Brianna Brown, Miller Time Brooke Kelly, Tori Sandberg, Nicole Carney, Devin Rose, Sean Kistler, rkmk Ali Smith. Tara would know last name. Ross Crawford, Joff Elite, Joffalai maybe is no, the O is way over there. I don't know what it is. Jill Magard, Koda Perney. Ariel Sipley. Sipple. Brenna. Brenna Talbert. Jenny Johnson. Aubrey with no last name Jennifer Hatfield. Lenny with no last name Christian Vandiver, Penelope Polecat. Okay. Tori Weckerley. Nugent. Holly Conway, Andrew Powley, Lydia Stephon, Emma Paul, Megan Finn, Michelle with no last name Veronica Johnson, Shawna Edwards, Paul Caffaro, Gretchen Smith, Janelle Davis. Devin with no last name Julie with no last name Dustin. Trick, tricky trick. A Jonah with no last name Katie Rasmussen. Rasmussen. Kristen Ezidine. Ezidine. Easy Dean. Jennifer Allen, Amy H. Less with no last name Ken Private Jeff Turner. What is this? Samantha Dewitt Morgan with no last name Christine Von Knucklestein, Emily Lynn, Spencer Rat Fink 707 RAR Rachel R. Donnie with no last name Heidi Hoffman, Brianna Croco. Shy Royce. Bubbly City, Matt Yep. Nicholas W. D.W. welters, Andrew Edwards, Jason Vail, Aaron Giza, Nicole Galay Bahru, Kelsey Makada, Mada Emma with no last name Kathy with no last name Adriana Conklin, Sean Whiting Faltered with no last name Melanie Pruitt, Cheryl Corley, Krishia Koshia Moultrie Doran. Darren. Darren Ellis, Allison Ocheltree, Crystal ruiz, Carla Ortiz, J.E. cook, Dave Duncan. Emily with no last name JP Williams, Sarah Lee. They make the best ones. Adrian with no last name Becky Smith. You don't like him.

[James Pietragallo]

I said nobody doesn't like her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nobody does it better. That's why. Jennifer McVettie, Thomas Greeley, Zecca Zecca Crook, Zika. Lizzie Deshain. Deshain. Mark McDonald McDonald. Becky Smith, Cowboy Joe. I think I said that. Kimberly Cohen, Penny Lawrence, Jen Clemens. Clemens. Lauren McCarthy, Bethany with no last name. Deborah Colgan. Becca G. Amanda Lebrech. Yep. Giselle M. Ava Donaldson. Amy Stoniker. Hope Shuts. L. Wyra. Elvira. El. Wyra. It's probably Elvira, right? Flea. Fiat Co. It's a Bori with no last name. Sarah Taylor. Trep Gabbard. Haley Ferguson. Bridget Bennett, Carol with no last name. Colleen Pachoka Pacocha. Amy with no last name. Molly Schaefer. That's almost a bad word. Keegan Coulter. Connor Van Sickle. Tony Baker. Caitlin with no last name. David with no last name. Lundy Schneider. Hillary McKinney. Danielle McCullough. Hernan Villegas. What the. Hobbs. Susan Stitt. Jody Blades. Mackenzie Hackett. Alexis Garcia. Joseph with no last name. Peggy with no last name. Zenida Pickett. Aaron A. Archibald. And all of our patrons are the best. Thank you so much.

[James Pietragallo]

Thank you so much everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're amazing.

[James Pietragallo]

Fantastic bastards. We cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us. Honestly. Just thank you so much. If you want to follow us on social media, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com there's a drop down menu where you can get all your tickets and all the follows. Everything's there. Do that. Keep coming back every week and hanging out with us. And until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[James Pietragallo]

Jeff Bridges. Why are you still living above our garage?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So Dana.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system. Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[James Pietragallo]

Nice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[James Pietragallo]

T mobile is the best place to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get the new new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for launch? Dude, my work here is done.

[James Pietragallo]

The 24 monthly bill credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers + tax and 35 device connection charge credit sending balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance Agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1,099.99 A new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove Speed Test Intelligence data 182025 Visit t mobile.com.