B (3:06)

Here we go.

A (3:07)

There you go. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get everything that we put out, including huge back bonus episode, catalog of bonus episodes you've never heard before. As soon as you subscrib there's almost 400 of them on there. So tons of them. And then you get new ones every other week. They're just gonna keep building. One crime in sports, one small town murder and you get it all.

B (3:33)

All of it.

A (3:34)

This week we're gonna take be done with Corey Richins and we are going to do an Internet salad break.

B (3:40)

Great.

A (3:40)

This is gonna be a lot of fun. We go over whatever's happening in the world minus politics, we try to stay out of that. And just the world, minus the world, all the shit that doesn't matter we like to go over and make fun of and it's the best palate cleanser. And it's so fun and it's kind of popular demand. People keep asking for another one. So let's do it. That'll be a lot of fun. Patreon.com CrimeInSports Then on top of that, you get all. We put out your stupid opinions. Crime and sports, small town murder all ad free with your patreon. And you get a shout out at the end of the show too. Jimmy will mispronounce your name even though he'd love to get it correct.

B (4:18)

That's a certainty.

A (4:19)

That said, that's disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. We're going to make jokes and there's, there's a lot of death on the show. There would be kind of false advertisement if there wasn't. So it's called small town murder. So I mean there's going to be death and we're going to make fun of it. And you go, well, how do you do that? How does that make sense? Well, we kind of think it's actually kind of a less creepy way to do it. You know, putting like ominous music in the background and talking about a dismemberment is kind of creepy, in my opinion. I'd rather it's kind of just to ease the tension around it a little bit. But what we don't do to make this okay is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

B (4:57)

Why's that, James?

A (4:58)

Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? And that's kind of how the line we like to walk and toe there. So there you go. If you think that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever go together. I don't know why you chose the show, but you should. You should give it a shot anyway and see what you think. But either way, no complaining later. That's what I'd like to say. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs here, arms to the sky, and let's all shout. Shut up. Give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

B (5:40)

Okay.

A (5:41)

Let's go on a trip, shall we, Jimmy? Let's do this. We are going to Texas this. This week. Yeah. We'll also be in Dallas on September 3rd. So we will be in Texas. This is in Axtel Texas. A X T E L L. Hard to Small place. Outside of Waco. Yeah, outside of Waco.

B (6:03)

Oh, boy.

A (6:04)

Oh, yeah.

B (6:05)

Western side.

A (6:06)

It's in east central Texas. Is where Waco.

B (6:08)

Is that not.

A (6:09)

No, it's east central Texas. Is that not west Texas? Nope, that is east central Texas.

B (6:14)

Is Plano west there?

A (6:16)

No, Plano's outside Dallas. It's a Dallas suburb.

B (6:19)

I'm not real good with my Texas geography. I just know that the whole state sucks.

A (6:24)

Yeah. Amarillo's out west. That's what we know.

B (6:27)

That's up in the top, isn't it?

A (6:28)

In the panhandle? Yeah, but that's like western otherwise. El Paso. There's not a lot in western Texas.

B (6:33)

Where the fuck is Baylor?

A (6:35)

It's hot and desert. Baylor is Waco Dallas or it's in one of the cities, like around one of the cities. This is east central Texas. About an hour and a half to Dallas. About an hour and 50 to Austin.

B (6:48)

It's way over there.

A (6:49)

Yeah. Kind of in between there. It's about three hours and ten minutes to Fredericksburg, Texas. Our last Texas episode, episode 652. One of my favorites. Madness, murder and multiple personalities.

B (7:00)

That's where the hometown.

A (7:01)

That's where the guy took all the furniture out of the house and buried it in the front yard in the exact arrangement that he had it in the living room, which is insanity. That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard in my life. This is in McClellan county, area code 2, 5, 4. This is a small place. I mean, it is not a big place. When you do, like, the statistics and stuff, you gotta do it by the zip code. Like, the town itself doesn't even have its own stats. So.

B (7:28)

Wow.

A (7:28)

So it's just the zip code, which means kind of the encompassing rural areas and kind of suburban Waco, too. It was established in the early 1880s as a rail stop here between Corsicana and Waco. This is, you know, when the railroad was expanding in the 1880s. This was, you know, the big time they were doing now.

B (7:49)

Oh, God, I just had. Because you said Corsicana, I just remembered the Corsican brothers. And now I'm watching that movie tonight. What a great movie that is.

A (7:57)

Yeah, that is Cheech and Chung, Cheech

B (7:59)

and Chong stabbing each other. And the other one feels it. That's amazing.

A (8:03)

No, it's good shit. They got a post office in 1882. It was named in honor of a railroad officer. So, again, very exciting. That's where Axtel came from. They opened up a state, the Axtel State bank in 1912. And that was good for the local businesses because then you could get some loans and stuff like that. Apparently Axtell reached a peak of population in the town proper of about 400 in 1914. So it's been a while. Wow. That was their peak. That was their peak then that year. There was severe storms and floods in the fall of that year that damaged and destroyed crops and property and made it impossible to make loan payments. So then nobody repaid their loans to the point where rather than the bank being able to just foreclose on stuff, the bank had to close because nobody was returning shit. So that was that.

B (8:55)

You just wait out the bank.

A (8:57)

That's what you had to do. Because otherwise, if they took the property, no one else was going to buy it. It was all flooded and squirted up. So it's best known for being the site of Mount Carmel Center. Oh, yes. Which is the site of the 1993 Waco siege. David Koresh. Koresh Branch Davidians, all that shit that didn't happen in Waco like You hear it happened in Axtel, actually. But Waco is the closest place anyone's heard of, so that's why it's there. That was the. If you don't know if you're very young. In 1993, this was a 51 day standoff between the FBI and. And basically the federal government and a group of lunatics. A cult leader who raped children and took everybody's wives. And a cult, an insane cult of lunatics that basically entrapped these poor children to die in a building.

B (9:49)

Entrapped a whole bunch of people.

A (9:51)

Yeah. And then the government's response to it. We could do 10 episodes debating Waco and crazy.

B (9:57)

There's a lot of mistakes made.

A (9:59)

There's a lot of crazy on both sides of that that went nuts. So either way, this was a 51 day standoff that resulted in a giant fire with explosions and 86 people dead by the end of it. That was including federal agents, including 20 to 28 children.

B (10:16)

Oh, sweet jeez. 28 and of course 22. Why is there a discrepancy?

A (10:22)

I don't know if that's discrepancy of who's considered a child or not.

B (10:25)

Or maybe 17, 19.

A (10:27)

That's what I'm saying. I don't know, but that's what they say between 20 and 28.

B (10:31)

Wow.

A (10:31)

Okay. So that's what this is famous for, this area. What up town flooding and the Branch Davidians. Wow. It's a farming community. Otherwise like agriculture. Reviews of this town. There's a few here. It's hard because you have to like really look for reviews of this town. Here's one person and there's no stars on these reviews, so we'll have to decide what they think. I've lived in axtel for over 20 years and couldn't be happier.

B (11:00)

One star.

A (11:01)

Yeah, one star. It's a safe and friendly community where everyone knows each other. The cost of living is low and the schools are great for kids. Who else would they be good for? The schools are great for grandpa. He really loves them. That's work it. Axtell is a beautiful place to live, but job opportunities are limited. It's a great place to raise a family, but not ideal for young professionals looking for career growth. So raise your family in a nice rural environment and then send your kids off to actually be able to work

B (11:33)

and get a job so the government can't peer on you.

A (11:36)

Oh yeah, or you can just collect a bunch of them in a giant building. Here is another one here. I moved to Axtel for the peaceful and quiet lifestyle. And I haven't been disappointed. You'll get a lot of quiet. That's one thing you're gonna get here. The town has a lot of charm and the people are welcoming. However, there's a lack of entertainment options and you have to drive to nearby cities for more activities. Yeah. There's nothing here.

B (12:02)

Nobody's coming out there.

A (12:03)

No. And then finally. I love living in Axtel. It's a close knit community where everyone looks out for each other. The cost of living is affordable and the town has everything you'd need. Which apparently doesn't include entertainment options or activities of any kind.

B (12:17)

You don't need that.

A (12:19)

You don't need that. You can get water and clothing and shelter here.

B (12:22)

Food, water, shelter, that's what you can get. We got it.

A (12:25)

I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. So there's that. Yeah. It's weird when I looked like on niche for reviews. There's none of that. They only have reviews of their school district niche.

B (12:37)

Wow. I guess it probably locally and even in the surrounding areas probably still has that shit hanging over it.

A (12:47)

I would. That's a kind of a big thing for a small town to shake. That's huge.

B (12:51)

That was front of the news. The whole fucking country.

A (12:55)

If I say the word Amity or Amityville, what do you think of?

B (12:59)

Yeah. I think of a murder in a house. Yeah.

A (13:02)

And flies, you know, on the windows. And you think of all that stuff. And Amityville is like a beautiful community. It's beautiful. But that's what they think of. So this is 100,000 times worse than Amityville. Amityville is one. Amityville was just one fat shit killing his family. This is a.

B (13:21)

It didn't even happen, James.

A (13:22)

It's not even a real place. They just filmed it in New Jersey. I read a book on the filming of that. They just filmed it in New Jersey. They don't care.

B (13:29)

But people still talk about how any lake called Crystal Lake is not a good place to be doomed. It didn't even happen.

A (13:36)

Never even happened. Never even happened. It's like the Rocky statue in Philly. This is not real. You know.

B (13:42)

Didn't happen.

A (13:44)

People in this town now. This isn't in the town. This is in zip code 76624. So big area. It's 2065 in the town. I think it's a couple hundred. Few hundred.

B (13:57)

And that's going to be sparse and sporadically dotted homesteads.

A (14:01)

Exactly. And it's a lot of kind of big Farms that are broken down like one of our families in our story. Big giant, long properties where the family has multiple houses where their whole family lives like on a street basically. Places like that. It's way more men than women in this town. 55.1% men. It's a lot of agriculture work. So not a good ratio for the fellows here. Median age, 45.3. So a little older than the national average, which is about 38. The other stats here, 62% married. This isn't a place to live a single swinging lifestyle. There's nothing to do here. Only 8.8% are single with children. So it seems like it's just so rural. If you're married, you just stay together because where am I gonna go? Where are you going? Race of this town, 97.8% white, 1% Hispanic and then 1% two or more races. I assume half white, half Hispanic would be my guess because it's 0%. Anything else? 62.8% of the. It's amazing that they haven't intermixed more. There's. You know, that seems odd, right?

B (15:17)

I mean I get a wouldn't.

A (15:20)

I don't know.

B (15:22)

Not very surprising really.

A (15:24)

Well, usually fucking breaks down all borders and it breaks down all walls between people and you know, if you look at.

B (15:32)

You hope so.

A (15:33)

Yeah. If you look at like the most interracial porn viewing, it's always wherever the clan is the strongest. You know what I mean? It's always that. So there's a duff protest too much thing to it there.

B (15:48)

And it's mostly. When you say interracial porn, it's mostly a lot of big black guys banging blushes. One white girl.

A (15:56)

Yeah. Fucking some farm looking chick. Yeah. Religion here, 62.8% are religious. So way above the national average of 50. 50. And the highest one here is Baptist by a long shot.

B (16:11)

Really.

A (16:11)

We know Baptists are the Catholics of the southwestern desert region. Southwestern desert Plains.

B (16:18)

Desert plains.

A (16:20)

Unemployment is about average here. Median household income, you'd think it might be lower, but it's not.67,972 about. They're doing well below the national average. Not doing terrible at all here. So cost of living here is 83 out of 100. So 100's regular average here it's 83. And the housing, you would think some big properties kind of make for a little more expensive, but the housing's an 89 out of 100. Median home cost, 332,900 bucks.

B (16:55)

And you probably got several acres that's the thing.

A (16:58)

And we're going to find out what you get here with the Axtel Texas real estate report. All right. The average two bedroom rental here goes for $940. I don't know if there are any two bedroom rentals, but for what, you're much lower than the national average by far. About 300 bucks lower. Here is house number one. Not great. One bedroom, one bath. So technically T bowl for each and every B hole.

B (17:28)

But for that one B hole.

A (17:30)

Just one B hole. 696 square feet. So you know, like a size of a small one bedroom apartment essentially built in 1946. It's not great, no frills. And there is one picture and it's from the outside, so that's a bad sign. 79,000 bucks for that though.

B (17:48)

Is there a studio home? Does that exist?

A (17:52)

That's probably what it is.

B (17:53)

That's kind of what this is.

A (17:54)

Yeah, that's what it seems like. Otherwise they're very small rooms. Here is a four bedroom, two bath, 1465 square feet. Not a big lot. Kind of wedged into a bunch of other smaller lots here. But it's a nice house. It's brick, nicely done on the inside, nice wood floors, Nothing wrong with it at all. Built in 1962. 175,000 bucks for that.

B (18:20)

Yeah.

A (18:21)

Any basic family house. 175,000 and then the next one. This is a great deal if you're looking to buy a house at this price. But four bedroom, three bath on 2,703 square feet, very nicely done on the inside, very nice on the outside. Right on a pond. It's got like a big pond in the back and it's got like a boat dock thing or like a swimming thing to jump off of out there. It's pretty cool. 58 acres.

B (18:50)

What the fuck?

A (18:51)

58 acres and there's trees and shit. It's not just like the desert, it's trees. 899,000 bucks for that. That's not bad.

B (19:00)

The land alone is incredible.

A (19:02)

That's a lot of land. It's not bad. That's a pretty good price. They just had a $26,000 price cut on that bad boy. And it's dropping, it's dropping, it's dropping. Get in there. Built in 2010. Things to do here. The Mount Calm Spring Festival. I found this is nearby and it's like a two minute drive to the next little town. Here they have a softball tournament, a barbecue, an arcade. They also have entertainment.

B (19:30)

Yeah.

A (19:31)

Yes, they do. They have. Let's See the Blue Sundown Band. The Chance Haas H A S S E. Yeah, anything. Colton Hawkins, which you might as well just.

B (19:49)

What the fuck, man.

A (19:50)

That came out of an AI country name generator is what that did. You're Colton Hawkins. Sounds good. Get a guitar and start strumming. Start talking about beer and you'll sell some records. And then I think the headliner the one night is Josh Ward. Don't know who that is. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. The next night we are going to have DJ Best. DJ D Best. Sorry.

B (20:15)

Oh, he's D Best.

A (20:16)

D Best. Mary Beth Bird will be there. All right, and then maybe my favorite name of all time, DJ Cowboy Confucius. That's fucking. That's just good stuff right there. Yeah, you can't beat DJ Cowboy Confucius. That's fucking funny.

B (20:36)

Amarillo by morning over the Yin Yang Twins beat or some shit like that.

A (20:41)

That's just too much, man. Holy shit. So, yeah, there's gonna be all this stuff and that's what they got going on. There's also a holiday market and then place I want to go, the Dr. Pepper Museum is there. They have a Dr. Pepper.

B (20:56)

Was it invented around here?

A (20:58)

It's Dublin, I think is the place, but it's in Texas. And I have a glass bottle. Hey, Dr. Pepper, sugar Dr. Pepper. And that's what you get. Well, I figured, what the hell. These are hard to find, by the way.

B (21:10)

Yeah, it's so good though. The real sugar Dr. Pepper does not compare to very little sodas compared to it.

A (21:17)

It's so clean and good. Yeah, well, you can do different things here. You can do. Make a soda which is $20 per person. So $20 to make your own soda and then have a soda or just

B (21:28)

go to the store, man.

A (21:29)

Get a shot. Yeah. $5 per additional bottle purchased at the time of your experience. If you want extra, extra for one bottle for each bottle you make, by the way. So you can choose from one of seven signature Dr. Pepper flavors. You can do Dr. Pepper Diet, Dr. Pepper 7Up, or Big Red as your base. And then add a variety of simple and artisan flavors to create your own unique soda. You also get a soda jerk hat and a soda expert sticker.

B (22:02)

Yeah. And then short for jerk off. Right. But not soda jerk, right?

A (22:08)

No, it's Soda jerk is somebody that made sodas in an old timey soda shop.

B (22:12)

He would jerk the handles. That's where they came with jerk.

A (22:15)

Exactly. Then there's also a paranormal experience. Yeah, I Don't know what that.

B (22:21)

I mean, I can think of 20 to 28 of them.

A (22:26)

No, they're gonna have. The museum is haunted, apparently.

B (22:30)

Oh, okay.

A (22:30)

So they go around, they give you flashlights and investigation tools and a glass bottle of Dr. Pepper that looks something like that.

B (22:38)

Is that how you trap them in the bottle?

A (22:40)

And then there's the extreme pepper experience.

B (22:43)

Here we go.

A (22:44)

Which is all of the above. You get the guides, you get a bottle of soda, you get to make your own, you get a stupid hat, you get to find ghosts. And you do everything. That's $100 a person. $100 a person. Wow. That's wild.

B (23:01)

Go to Disney. What the fuck? That's crazy.

A (23:04)

Oh, my God. That said, crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here is about property crime. About one quarter under the national average. So that's good for property crime and violent crime. Murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. Right. At the national average.

B (23:19)

Really?

A (23:19)

Yeah, but I mean, that could be. Two guys beat the shit out of their wives and that small of a town made the crime rate shoot up, you know? Or two idiots got in a fight at a bar. Who knows?

B (23:30)

Oh, so that's the ones. I guarantee it.

A (23:33)

That said, let's talk about some murder. What do you think? Here we go. All right. Let's go back to 1989, everybody.

B (23:40)

Yeah.

A (23:40)

Oh, baby. Where were you in 1989?

B (23:42)

I was nine, that's where.

A (23:44)

I was a child. Small child. Yeah. Sitting there grooving to Milli Vanilli. That's what you were doing. You were blaming it on the rain is what Jimmy was doing in 1989. So at this point, Axtell itself has 105 people.

B (24:01)

105.

A (24:02)

105. To describe what Axtell is, they say it sits on farm Road at 1330 between U.S. highway 84 and State Highway 31, eight miles northeast of Belmead in eastern McClellan County. Okay, that's what's going on now. Let's talk about a woman here first. Let's talk about Karen Vica. There's been so many different pronunciations of this name. Vika is what we landed on, I believe, because Vicia is how it's said a lot of the times, so I had to figure it out. But in Texas, they made it. Vica, give it a hard C, V, I, C, H, A Karen Vica, born somewhere around 1949. We'll talk about that. But as of 1989, she has three daughters. Two teenagers, a 16 year old, a 14 year old, and about a 10 year old.

B (24:55)

She's 50.

A (24:56)

And she's in this time. Yeah, about 50. She's got Ann Marie, Tracy and Heather are her kids. She had been twice divorced. And by 1989, she's got a new husband that we'll talk about. A new husband that's quickly getting old as we'll talk about. And she lives by her parents. She lives in one of these places where the whole street is her family. All different houses. She lives in a trailer on this street of different houses. Apparently they have a lot of yellow brick houses, is what the family built.

B (25:28)

I don't know.

A (25:29)

Yeah, I don't know.

B (25:31)

Why is it painted brick or they found yellow bricks?

A (25:34)

Not sure. No idea. Oh, like the road, I guess. But in a house form.

B (25:40)

Yeah.

A (25:41)

Who knows?

B (25:42)

I've never heard of it, other than that movie.

A (25:43)

No. That's what I read, though. Yellow brick houses, which I was like, that's weird. I thought the same thing. I was like, that's strange. I mean, maybe you'd paint them so the sun wouldn't make it hotter. I don't know. Dark color attracts heat.

B (25:55)

Maybe they're just yellow brick houses.

A (25:57)

Maybe yellow brick, but no brick. There couldn't be anything less pertinent to the story.

B (26:04)

I get it.

A (26:05)

Yeah.

B (26:06)

I'm on board.

A (26:07)

No, no, that's what we do. We will veer off into that. I'm like, this does not.

B (26:10)

Corsican brothers, James.

A (26:11)

Yeah, that's what we do.

B (26:12)

Get distracted very easy.

A (26:14)

We do it all the time, my friend. Her parents live across the street. They are Robert and Zelda, as in the legend of. Her father is Robert. He's 64 years old at this point. He's a retired plumber, just retired a couple of years ago. He's tired of getting under your goddamn sink. And he's had it.

B (26:33)

He's been tired. Tomorrow he'll be retired again. And tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. I'll never stop being tired.

A (26:41)

This man has seen the shit of every person in town. And everybody hates.

B (26:46)

And their hair and a couple of their tampons for sure.

A (26:51)

And probably like a baby, I assume, at some point.

B (26:55)

Yeah.

A (26:57)

He's like, ah, fuck, I hate calls after prom night, God damn it. And then he has to. Zelda is 60, Karen's mom, she still works. She works for a foot doctor, I believe in Waco. And yeah, they seem like a happy couple. They're doing their thing. They have not only Karen, but Karen's got a brother named Bobby who is 39 years old. And he is in 1989. He is an 18 year veteran of the Waco Police Department. He's a sergeant in the Waco Police Department. He also lives in his own house just down the street as well. So they all live on the same deal. He's got a daughter and a son. His son's name is J.R. and he's 11 years old in 1989. Yeah, we'll talk plenty about him too. So hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to get a better night's sleep on a Casper mattress.

B (27:53)

Casper.com Absolutely.

A (27:56)

You know when you've had that long day, that long day and you can't wait to get to that bed, you've been, we've been on the road or you've been out, you had a long day at work, a presentation, the kids had games and all that stuff. You want to crash out. A Casper is the way to do it. It is. So the mattresses are excellent. They're so good. Honestly, you spend a third of your life asleep, why not get that good sleep with Casper? This product is sponsored by Casper. Casper makes reliable, high quality mattresses designed to deliver consistent, comfortable sleep night after night. Casper's mattresses are highly rated by Consumer Reports and out of 99 mattresses, Consumer Reports named Casper the 1 mattress. Their top rated all foam mattress of 2026. So if you're in the market for a new mattress or a mattress upgrade, we could all use one. Get in there and do it. Head to Casper.com and save up to 20% on the mattresses that you deserve. That's the thing. You deserve this. Casper's mattresses are built to be durable and long lasting. So you're not replacing your mattress every few years either. Their products are designed to withstand, stand the test of time, maintaining support and comfort over the long haul. They have 100 night risk free trial. So you can give Casper's mattresses a run risk free. You're going to love it though because they have over 110,000 5 star reviews and you're going to like it as much as we do. I think honestly these Casper mattresses are comfortable. They're great. No matter what kind of a sleeper you are, what kind of a mattress you like, they have it for you. Firm, soft, somewhere in between. There's something for you@casper.com honestly, you're going to like it. And they make my neck feel good.

B (29:36)

Yeah.

A (29:36)

Which is I have a bad right into the bed.

B (29:38)

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A (29:39)

It's really great. So get in there. And do it. Plus they just launched a brand new kids mattress too. So even the youngest sleepers in your family can get the same comfort and quality that you do right now. Save up to 20% on mattresses when you go to Casper.com one last time. That's C-S-P-E-R.com and save up to 20% on the mattress you deserve.

B (30:00)

Now back to the show.

A (30:03)

Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you the gift to get your mother this Mother's Day. An aura frame.

B (30:11)

Auraframes.com Absolutely.

A (30:14)

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B (31:46)

Now back to the show.

A (31:48)

Now Karen is twice divorced and about to be or trying to be thrice divorced. Yeah.

B (31:55)

You say she's 50 and her mom's 60, I think.

A (31:58)

No, no, she's not 50. I apologize. I meant she's younger than that. Her date of Birth. I've seen five different dates of birth for.

B (32:05)

Okay, got it.

A (32:06)

So I'm trying to figure it out exactly when she's born. She is younger than this guy, but not by a ton. I think she might be, you know, 10 years younger than him. So Billy Wayne Coble is who she marries. Who's the new guy she's trying to get a divorce from. Now, Billy is B, I, L L, I, E, meaning his name is not William. No, he's not going by Billy as a nickname. His name is Billy.

B (32:35)

Not a lot of Billy's like that, unless they're ladies, usually.

A (32:38)

No. And most of them are exactly where you'd expect them to be.

B (32:41)

You betcha. It's like Jimmy's with an ie.

A (32:45)

Yep. So Billy Wayne and Coble is C, O, B, L, E. Like noble with a C, because he's not noble at all. And a lot of people call him Billy Wayne. Yeah. Old Billy Wayne there. Billy isn't enough of a name for him. He's born September 9, 1948. Now, Billy had met Karen when she was in high school, and he had been at the time, I believe he was, like, on leave from the Marines in Vietnam.

B (33:13)

Oh.

A (33:14)

So you know what I mean? It's that kind of situation. Or right after that, I guess they talked a few times, and then they never really kept any connection with each other.

B (33:26)

Sure.

A (33:27)

Then they met again at a nightclub in 1987, and that started a relationship. And they'll end up being married in 1988, as we'll talk about. Hey, we got to know about Billy Wayne's background because it's really quite the spectacle here. Okay. His father never around. Gone from the start from jump. His mom has a lot of problems. Mental problems. Oh. Lot of issues. So basically, for his first, like, four years of life, his mother was in and out of institutions, and he was raised by an alcoholic stepfather who, you know, beat the shit out of him and all that kind of thing and didn't work. And they were really poor and real poor. You know, like rural Texas poor. Very poor. Rural poor. Dirt poor. Dirt poor. He's got a brother and a sister now. From the age of four on, his mother gets pretty much permanently institutionalized.

B (34:27)

Billy Wayne's mom.

A (34:28)

Billy Wayne's mom institutionalized at the Austin State Hospital with a psychoneurotic disorder.

B (34:36)

Oh, boy.

A (34:37)

She had a crazy fucking meltdown and they took her away and she never came back.

B (34:43)

See, he's not with the alcoholic stepdad.

A (34:45)

No. He gets sent to a state children's home. Perfect in the early 50s, which.

B (34:51)

Yeah, nice place.

A (34:53)

Beautiful place. I mean, those places suck now. And we actually try now a little bit anyway. When there's funding anyway. But back then it was just like.

B (35:02)

I'll tell you that.

A (35:03)

Yeah, back then it was a different type of deal. So. To be raised in a rural Texas children's home in the 50s is brutal.

B (35:12)

It's a school for orphans.

A (35:14)

Basically, you're unwanted. Now. His brother and his older sister were packed off to the Corsicana State Home for Children and they were sent somewhere else and he stayed by himself. So they split up the kids and the family and sent them to different places. His sister eventually. Wow. While at the state Home for Children was. Got in trouble for, quote, promiscuous acting out. So got in trouble for fucking guys and got sent to a convent. They forcefully made her a nun.

B (35:49)

You will be a nun now.

A (35:50)

They forced her into the nunnery because she was too friendly, because she's an angel. What do you think's gonna happen in the nunnery? Yeah, she's been raised in a children's home. She's probably been molested since forever, including by alcoholics. Send her off into the nunnery. Yeah, she won't. That'll shut it all right down.

B (36:11)

All right. That'll fix it.

A (36:13)

That's what they used to force people into. His brother was placed under the Waco Probation Department because he was fucking up, too. But Billy Wayne stayed at the home for 12 years, from age 4 to age 16.

B (36:26)

16. Jesus.

A (36:28)

He lives there now. He has some workups done on him when he's 15 and he's got some mental problems.

B (36:35)

Is that right?

A (36:35)

You might imagine here the institution brought in a psychiatrist named Dr. Hodges. And Dr. Hodges described him as paranoid, distant, deliberately not smiling, as if he must deliberately keep people away from him to avoid the hurt from further rejection and hostility.

B (36:57)

Yeah, interesting diagnosis. He's adapted A to B. Yeah, he's adapted to not being cared for by way of pushing everyone away so that they don't try to.

A (37:11)

He pushes everyone away because no one's ever cared for him. Whenever he thinks someone's going to be nice to him or when you're a kid, you're looking for someone to be the mother figure or father, and they're not. Then after a while you go, well, fuck all these people. Then I'm not going to be friendly. They're not going to be nice to me. So I'm not even going to pretend like we're going to fucking get on. So it makes perfect sense here. Yeah, it's bad. He also said he was extremely hostile to women.

B (37:37)

Oh, that's interesting.

A (37:38)

Which Tay hates. His mom made very deprecating remarks about them and seemed to have a very low opinion of women. These are all quotes from the doctor's report, which is not good. The final assessment basically, is, quote, this boy represents a sociopathic personality disturbance of the dissocial type. Noted that he and people like him gratify their own desires without regard for the cost of others. And then he said, the long term prognosis does not look good. Doomed to a life of fuckery from

B (38:15)

the start as a boy, 15 boy, check them out. Does not look good for the.

A (38:21)

Not look good. And they don't go, okay, so let's get him into some serious therapy, especially get him a woman therapist that he can trust and build. They just go, nah, he's fine. And you know what they do? They encourage him to join the Marine Corps, which is what he does.

B (38:37)

Oh, my.

A (38:39)

I mean, what else? I mean, that's fine. You want to join the Marine Corps, but what else can he do? Like, he just.

B (38:45)

Nowhere to go back then. Very few women in there.

A (38:48)

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Very few women. And that's a good place. And plus, if he's aggressive and he's angry and all that, the Marines, I

B (38:54)

mean, we got a war to fight back then too.

A (38:57)

They would go, maybe that'll, like, we could shape that into something useful, basically.

B (39:01)

Mold him into following rules and order.

A (39:04)

Yep. So he joined at age 17, which would be about late 1965. Guess what's going on around that time. So he is sent to Vietnam.

B (39:13)

Yeah. As a big CR fan.

A (39:15)

Big. Yeah. His fortunate son is a constant loop,

B (39:18)

and it's like he can't stop.

A (39:21)

He hears that and he just hears chopper start going. And that's the thing. He was a machine gunner in combat too. So he's a. Wow. Yeah. He later told someone who interviewed him that the killing always stayed with him from Vietnam. He said he could still see the first person he killed in Vietnam just as vividly as the day it happened. Oh, Jesus said that. Thirty years later, he serves four years in the Marines altogether. We'll talk about how he ended up getting out and everything, but while still in Vietnam, he returned home from Da Nang to meet a woman or to go back to. He had a fiance at the time, don't know who she was, but basically he came home. I don't know if it was a surprise visit. I feel like if you're coming home from Vietnam,

B (40:16)

there's been a notice.

A (40:17)

People know when you're coming, right?

B (40:19)

Yeah.

A (40:20)

Oh, he's getting here today, and he's at the airport. You imagine that somehow his fiance missed the note or missed the telegram or missed whatever, because when he came home, he found her in her apartment in the middle of fucking a guy who clearly wasn't him.

B (40:37)

Oh, my God.

A (40:39)

Now imagine being that guy.

B (40:42)

Yeah.

A (40:42)

Imagine if you didn't know any of this. You're just, hey, guy, I got lucky with some chick. And then her machine gunner fucking fiance comes in on leave from Danang to fucking kick the door open.

B (40:55)

Oh, my God, you're gonna get a Forrest Gump ass kicking. That's my Jenna.

A (41:00)

This is bad stuff.

B (41:02)

Jesus.

A (41:03)

He threatened to kill both of them, became enraged, which seems like A to B, I would say, for this guy.

B (41:10)

I mean, I've never been to war. I think I might say those words.

A (41:14)

Yeah. I'm not just coming home from where they're like, just kill as many people as you. It's weird.

B (41:20)

Just unload it and then reload it, unload it again, do that all day.

A (41:24)

It's super strange to send someone like, hey, you're gonna go on a break from combat quick and go home and be normal and then come back and kill again. We really don't have any idea how the human brain works, but you can't turn it on and shut it off like that. I don't know how we expect football players to not be crazy when they get off the field, never mind people who've been told to literally murder as many people as you can.

B (41:46)

The hyperbole in the NFL locker room is enough.

A (41:51)

Yeah. This is actual.

B (41:53)

This is legit.

A (41:54)

Yeah. Bring me back ears.

B (41:58)

Take them apart. Yeah.

A (41:59)

Wow. So he ends up getting in a fight with the guy. After that, there's a big fracas and melee after he threatens to kill them during this fight. He had a knife at some point. Uh.

B (42:12)

Oh.

A (42:12)

And we know that because he accidentally stabbed himself in the right leg with it, in the right thigh. So he ends up hurting himself.

B (42:21)

He got tangled up so much. He hit the wrong leg.

A (42:24)

He hit the wrong leg. But his story was that it wasn't an accident. He said he deliberately tried to stab himself in the abdomen and missed, which is a pretty big miss.

B (42:34)

Yeah.

A (42:35)

I don't know how you'd miss stabbing yourself in the abdomen and get your thigh. That's.

B (42:39)

Wow.

A (42:41)

Now, there's a military medical report from this incident that noted that he revealed evidence of a lifelong maladjustment from this

B (42:51)

Is that what we're calling that?

A (42:52)

We're saying he's a fucking maniac and a bit of a crazy person. And that's from the Marines, by the way. They want you to. Their whole thing is kill, kill, kill. And they're like, hey, this guy's a little fucked up in the head, so you gotta be super fucked up.

B (43:08)

Yeah. Full metal jacket. What did they have on the helmet? Did it say license to kill? Born to kill.

A (43:13)

Born to kill. Yeah, that's it. They don't even have. There's no. They don't even have, like, medical staff. Like they have it on a base or whatever, but they don't have, like, their own doctors. The Navy doctors do. The Marines. Because the Marines teach people to kill. And that's all. That's it. So. And that's fine. It's a military. That's what they need to do. But I'm saying it's weird when they say, hey, he's a little off.

B (43:34)

He's a bit much.

A (43:35)

Yeah, he's a little too violent for us. You gotta be really fucked up.

B (43:39)

Yeah.

A (43:40)

On the hospital ward, he was described as hostile and belligerent before slowly beginning to conform to the ward environment. After a while, he received an honorable discharge, but was explicitly not recommended for re enlistment due to a series of violations and convictions. During his time in service. Is what was honest.

B (44:03)

You don't gotta go home, but you can't stay here.

A (44:05)

Yeah, we're gonna give you honorable. That's nice. But we're done with you at this point. Yeah, you're not welcome. That's like somebody breaking up with you because they're moving and they're very sorry, but they have to go. That's basically what they're saying.

B (44:19)

But, you know, it's not you, it's us.

A (44:21)

I just have to. I have to. My job. There's no choice. So he does that. When he comes back from Vietnam, he is diagnosed with ptsd. Called something different at the time, I'm sure. And bipolar disorder as well. So picked up a little bit of that. Yeah. He was hospitalized when he returned due to trauma he experienced during the war. And his sister said that he was never the same after he came back from Vietnam. He was a different guy. Can't imagine as probably tens of thousands of people.

B (44:55)

I'll bet that number.

A (44:56)

Everybody said that from that war.

B (44:58)

I'll bet that number's somewhere around 80 something percent.

A (45:01)

It's a lot of not the same. Yeah, they were never the same.

B (45:05)

And the others were people that didn't see combat, no.

A (45:08)

Yeah, that's true. World War II people were fucked up, too.

B (45:12)

Yeah.

A (45:14)

They just. You could still smoke two packs a day and drink a bottle of whiskey every day. And people just thought you were a man back then, so it was fine and you could cover it up. Plus, those people grew up in the Depression.

B (45:24)

Yeah.

A (45:25)

So a lot of those guys going to war was like, oh, shit, this is the first time I have nice clothes and I got steady meals every day. So they were. It was a little less. Whereas if you were coming from this era in the mid-60s in America, a little bit of a softer time for kids to come up and then go to Vietnam, I don't think they were ready for that shit. That was.

B (45:43)

There's also a side. When they came back from World War II, they came back as victors, whereas the other side, they did not.

A (45:50)

No, they came back as. They didn't even know what the hell they were doing over there.

B (45:53)

Right. There was no plan.

A (45:55)

There was no, hey, we'll go ahead and beat Hitler. There's no cartoon of Bugs Bunny kicking Hitler in the dick. Like, we didn't have any of that from Vietnam. It was just this kind of nebulous, weird thing.

B (46:07)

I'll bet you there's not a lot of people that can name the bad guy of Vietnam.

A (46:12)

Well, I mean. Yeah, I think that's a matter of opinion, probably.

B (46:16)

Yeah, probably.

A (46:16)

Yeah.

B (46:18)

That's the problem with war is that there's supposed to be a decidedly bad guy that we're fighting against.

A (46:25)

It was before that. We always had that before. I mean, World War II, we had that. World War I seemed pretty clear cut. Yeah. You know, but then when it gets a little more.

B (46:34)

Then it gets foggy after that out

A (46:35)

in the ether there.

B (46:36)

It's crazy.

A (46:37)

So 1970, he's gonna meet his future bride here. One of them. This is Pam Woolley. W O O L L E Y Woolly. She'll later be Pam Gumbert, which is a terrible name. Poor Pam.

B (46:53)

Both of them are.

A (46:54)

Yeah, he's 22 at this point. And Pam, he meets her and they get married pretty quickly. He adopts her young daughter Charlene, after they get married, 1970, trying to make a family. They're also going to have two children.

B (47:12)

Wow.

A (47:12)

Including a son named Gordon, who goes by GW Which I assume is Gordon Wayne, not Liddy, not. Let's. Yeah, exactly. So Gordon will talk about plenty. That's why I'm making a. He's going to have a lot to say later. Now, Pam Said to Bill, I was perfect. I'm not perfect, and I can't be perfect. And it was just strange the way he thought about me. That's what she said later. Okay, so by 1974, he doesn't apparently think she's so goddamn perfect anymore because he becomes a violent monster by 1974, within four years. He would beat her mercilessly all the time. He liked to beat her on the head so her hair would cover the, you know, marks and wounds and stuff.

B (48:05)

There would be actual wounds?

A (48:07)

Oh, yeah. No, he's beating her. He's punching her in the head and stuff like that. He's a fucking monster. A girlfriend introduced Pam to Billy Wayne, by the way, so thanks a lot, asshole. How do you feel if you introduce somebody to somebody who then beats the shit out of him? You don't have to feel horrible, right?

B (48:25)

The guilt would be crazy.

A (48:26)

Yeah, I'd feel awful. But she said. The woman who introduced them said she was struck by his good natured personality. Seemed like such a great gregarious guy. He did have trouble at his job at the Central Texas Ironworks. He's a welder, by the way, and I think electrician later on, too. And they have a lot of bills and things like that. And he's starting to get abusive and violent. And he's not a drinker. Doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, which to me that shows if you can be crazy and violent and you're not even drunk,

B (49:00)

thank God you don't drink.

A (49:01)

That's what I mean. You're not even drunk. Imagine doing anything like that. Sober drunk, even. I'm a happy drunk, so I can't picture a drunk. But imagine sober. Yeah, that's wild, man.

B (49:15)

Nothing even clouding the reason for your frustration and your leap to violence. It's just that's who you are.

A (49:22)

That's just who you are. That's what comes out naturally with no adjustment of anything. Maybe he needed a drink. Maybe that would have mollified him.

B (49:32)

I'm terrified to try it, you know,

A (49:37)

maybe he would have been one of those guys who has like three drinks and falls asleep on the couch, you know, Maybe that would have just calmed him right down. Well, some guys, they'll calm people. You give them booze and they get crazy. Maybe it works the opposite. Maybe it's like Ritalin, you know? If you're real hyper, it'll make you calm. If you're real calm, it'll make you hyper.

B (49:53)

At least for a little while until he builds a tolerance. It's certainly gonna be. It's gonna be a sedative. It'll put him to sleep for a minute.

A (50:01)

I'd probably try anyway. So he would knock her to the floor with open hand slaps at one point. Well, he hit her with a baseball bat a couple of times, hard enough to send her to the hospital. He hit her in the back. One point he sat on her chest and repeatedly punched her in the face and broke her nose. He's a horrible. This is horrible. She said that he once beat her so bad that she had black eyes for six weeks.

B (50:28)

Oh, my God.

A (50:29)

You know how deep that has to be to last for six weeks? Anybody ever had a black eye? It goes away in a week.

B (50:36)

And not just how deep, but how much bleeding. Cause that's what a black eye is. It's bleeding and it's so much collection in there, it shows through the face. For six weeks.

A (50:49)

Six weeks. The man hasn't been able to digest a decent meal in six weeks. Six weeks. Six weeks. One time she cooked something that he didn't particularly care for, so he threw the plate at her and hit her with it when she then threw something back at him. So now we got a food fight in the kitchen, which sounds like fun, but in this situation, it's really not because he's a terrifying monster. She threw something back at him, so he got up and hit her with a sledgehammer. A sledgehammer?

B (51:20)

Why is that in the kitchen?

A (51:22)

I don't think it was. I think he went to the garage and got the sledgehammer, came back in the.

B (51:25)

Came back in and blasted her with

A (51:27)

it, hit her with the sledgehammer. Luckily not in the head. She described him as capable of going, quote, from normal to extremely angry in a split second, and that he always blamed her for his violent acts, which all these abusers do. That. Why'd you make me do that? Is what they say, why'd you make me do that? Rather than, why can't I control myself?

B (51:51)

Why'd I make that decision?

A (51:53)

Why did I make that horrible fucking decision? Which is the question you should be asking. So that's what's going on here. But from normal to extremely angry. Boom. Like that. And this is, like I said, no booze, no drugs.

B (52:06)

That's crazy.

A (52:07)

Nothing. Like, get this man some weed. He needs it.

B (52:12)

God damn. If you do that bad, seek help fast. That's so fucking crazy.

A (52:17)

The court should order him to, number one, never go near her again, and number two, should mandate 10 bongloads a day for this Guy, he needs to bring it all down a little bit.

B (52:30)

I think he also needs a collar with a geo fence around it that just goes house to work. House to work.

A (52:37)

That'd be good. Like a dog. Like an electric fence. Yeah, that'd be good.

B (52:41)

Geofence. You're not allowed to leave.

A (52:44)

So he then told her that if she ever filed for divorce, he would, quote, fix her so no man would ever look at her again.

B (52:54)

Okay. So that would be scarring.

A (52:56)

Or I will maul you so you'll be.

B (53:00)

I'll disfigure you.

A (53:01)

Disfigure you. She did file for divorce in 1975. Oh, boy. She said, for the safety of my children and myself. But then he got all sweet all of a sudden. I'm so sorry. You come back, everything's going to be different. Please forgive me. I made all the mistakes and I didn't know, and my family and my daddy was never around, and I don't know how I'm supposed to act and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, okay and took him back. This is horrifying. So what's her dad like? You know what I mean? Yeah. I've seen nobody who didn't come up in this would put up with this. Yeah.

B (53:38)

And the daughter that he adopted, what's that girl's father like? Yeah. Because he's not around to be. She's available to be adopted.

A (53:47)

He has given up parental rights completely. So that's what I mean. So she's not picking winners. So what happened there? So then it goes downhill now. This poor girl, the daughter. This is the house she grows up in. So. Fuck, it's horrible. So now there is. I guess we'll call this section the Good, which is hard to even say, especially because. Wait till I tell you after this. He served as a section leader in the US Army Reserves, and he was well respected by the commanding officers and troops and did a great job there. Everybody said he was great. He also did. He was a member of the Waco jcs, which John Wayne Gacy was a member of the jcs. Was a youth.

B (54:34)

Constantly. Lack of credibility.

A (54:35)

Yeah. Was a youth.

B (54:37)

Those should have dissolved.

A (54:38)

Yeah. Youth football coach, which, again, I don't trust that at all. And he once owned a welding shop and was included in a book titled Outstanding Young Men of America. I'd love to get a copy of that book. Who else is in there? Young Jeffrey Dahmer. He's a star. There's this young man trying to get into law school in Utah. We really think you're gonna take a shine to. He's got a magnetic personality. The young women really like him. He drives a champagne colored vw. He's excellent.

B (55:14)

Wait till you hear about Kansas ADT Salesman of the year.

A (55:17)

Oh my God. Wait till you hear about the community officer of the year there in Kansas. Holy shit.

B (55:29)

Dennis Raider, what a guy.

A (55:31)

This is crazy. Now the bad. Now I've given you bad. He's a monster. Beats his fucking wife mercilessly. A horrible, horrible, horrible piece of shit monster. I've given you the good. He's an outstanding young man in America. He teaches kids football and does well in the army reserves. Now here is the ugly, the worst than bad. This is the ugly. This is his true scumbagness. Comes out here. Okay. He molested Pam's younger sister. Not the daughter, the younger sister. And punched her in the mouth. He then molested the kid's 13 year old babysitter.

B (56:16)

Yeah.

A (56:17)

And this was while he under the ruse of taking her to teach her how to water ski. He took her and molested her. A 13 year old.

B (56:27)

Yeah.

A (56:27)

He also groped and molested another neighborhood girl. Okay, so what the fuck. In 1979, he was 30 years old. He raped his own cousin who was 15 years old at the time. So you can put that in a fucking.

B (56:50)

He's got.

A (56:51)

That's rape, incest, child molestation, it's all in one.

B (56:55)

He's got severe psychological damage that started probably around 10 years old.

A (57:01)

Shit, four years old.

B (57:03)

Right. There's obviously that. Yeah, but in that between 4 and 10, perhaps they coddled him a little bit, but somewhere in between, I don't think so. Eight to 14 year old window, there is horrible abuse that happened. Absolutely. He's targeting children of that age. So that's where he sees himself.

A (57:26)

But he's also targeting girls.

B (57:28)

Yes.

A (57:29)

So that's usually not how that goes. Well, you know what I mean, most of the time it does happen. But I mean a lot of the times the molested guys molest boys. They don't molest girls, certainly.

B (57:39)

But perhaps it wasn't perhaps boy that molested him.

A (57:43)

Yeah, not all the time. And we don't know. But he hates women, which is another thing. So he hates his mother.

B (57:49)

It's a psychological obvious hot take there.

A (57:53)

Hot take. Unless we could figure out what the hell happened to him at the state house he was raised in.

B (58:02)

Something happened.

A (58:03)

We have no idea. I mean we know what happened from zero to four and that's enough. That's enough. Honestly, what happened? Just in the womb was probably enough. Think about if his mom's nuts and she's around this crazy alcoholic asshole and all this shit. God knows what was going on. Can't be good. We don't know. So that's easy. He rapes his 15 year old cousin. Then there was an incident with his niece. His 15 year old niece, by the way. She's sitting in a chair wearing a nightgown. This is horrifying. He grabbed her ankles and spread her legs apart and made a gesture with his tongue as if he was going to perform oral sex on her.

B (58:42)

That is in front of people apparently.

A (58:45)

So.

B (58:46)

It's documented.

A (58:47)

How the fuck. I mean, she told. We know later that same day he forcibly kissed her. So now he's done two different things. When he was done forcibly kissing her, he threw a $5 bill at her and said, have that. So keep. Remember the $5 bill, by the way? Okay. Throws a $5 bill at her, was like, there you go. She told on him anyway. Good. Now Pam, back to Pam, his first wife. She said that in 1979, she can vividly remember him being enraged, sitting on her chest and beating her silly with his fists. After she told him that she wouldn't change her mind about the divorce because now she wants a divorce again. In 79, he threatened to kill her entire family and said he would keep their son Gordon and disappear if she divorced him. Okay, okay. Which is crazy. That's what's going on here. She sought medical treatment twice during their marriage. Once after he threw a baseball at her. A baseball hit her in the back, causing her lung to swell. Oh, God.

B (59:56)

God damn it.

A (59:57)

Guys get hit in the back with 98 mile an hour fastballs and take their base. So he drilled her from close. That's not like a. Not from 60ft.

B (60:06)

He crot and stare. But her lung is damaged.

A (60:10)

This isn't from 60ft, you know, he probably did it from five feet away. This is crazy. So they divorce in 1980. Pam gets away from this fucking monster. Thank God for her and her daughter.

B (60:20)

Did she get. She had just got her daughter out of it. Gordon stayed behind.

A (60:23)

Yeah, well, Gordon goes with her, I believe. But Gordon stays very close to his dad. Really, as we'll find out all the way. For the next 40 years. Gordon's close to his dad. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a better way to feed your cat the food. My cat loves Smalls.

B (60:41)

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A (60:43)

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A (65:42)

So then he meets another young lady. He's 35, she's 18. He's got it tight. Too naive to know that he's a shithead is the type. That's what it is.

B (65:55)

From a background of tumultuous beginnings. And that lends to being a trapper probably.

A (66:00)

Yep. So this was in 1981. She was working at a takeout chicken restaurant in Robinson, Texas. And yeah, Billy Wayne's welding shop was nearby. Oh, if that's not a match made in heaven. He comes in, you know, pulls his fucking mask up, welding bibs on. Yeah, welding bibs, burns on his arm, pulls his mask up. She comes out in her little chicken smock and it's love at first sight. I picture her with a hat, a paper hat shaped like a chicken. That's what I picture for some reason.

B (66:32)

Welder wears a real stupid hat too, underneath that helmet.

A (66:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (66:37)

Real tight cotton thing.

A (66:38)

But I picture him wearing the helmet pulled up over there. How you doing there, darlin'? Just trying to show that he's employed.

B (66:44)

You know, some of those welding caps are hilarious. Cause they have a bill on them for some reason.

A (66:50)

Yeah, what is that? I don't want the sun to get in my eyes. Even though. Yeah, I can stare at an eclipse and it'd be fine. But the sun, it gets in your eyes. I gotta get a little bill on that thing. I think it's just so you can adjust it and feel like you're adjusting something. I really feel like that's what it is. Guys just want to be able to grab and adjust a hat.

B (67:10)

What a wild fucking. It's a weird profession in the first place. But the safety equipment is insane.

A (67:15)

It's crazy. It's crazy. So his welding shop is there and he would stop by at the restaurant to not only get some takeout chicken, but also to talk to her. You know, the young teenager that works at the goddamn Chicken shack.

B (67:28)

Oh, boy.

A (67:29)

So this is Candy Ryan, her name is. And she's very impressionable. Her father surprisingly disapproved of their relationship.

B (67:38)

Is that right?

A (67:39)

Crazy, right? I don't want my daughter to go out with this 35 year old asshole twice her age. Divorced, fucking police record Marine lunatic. I don't want all this shit in Vietnam. Bipolar, divorced father twice her age, by the way. So he threatened the father as well. Oh, he threatened the father. I don't understand. This is Texas. I don't get how the father didn't shoot him.

B (68:07)

I mean, I think that's legal there.

A (68:10)

Well, it might be. It's probably legal to threaten your daughter's boyfriend. That's probably legal, I'd imagine.

B (68:14)

Right.

A (68:14)

And if he fires back at you, I think it's legal to shoot him there. Probably.

B (68:20)

On your own property.

A (68:21)

Yeah, if it's a property. On your own property. If you invite him into the front lawn. He was dumb enough to come. I feel like that's part of the law, or at least was Castle doctrine

B (68:29)

if I've ever heard it.

A (68:30)

Yeah. Because I tell you what fought and died for if that's my daughter.

B (68:35)

Yeah.

A (68:36)

When I say stay away from my daughter and you threaten me, oh, I'm coming for you. I'm going to kill you. And that's. I'm not even. You know, it's happening. You're going down.

B (68:46)

Yeah. It's not hyperbole.

A (68:48)

Yeah, that's it. And the dad was right. Not surprisingly, after about a year of the relationship being all nice and everything, then he started regularly beating the shit out of Candy as well.

B (69:00)

They're dating anyway.

A (69:02)

These guys do not change their stripes. No, by the way, whatsoever. He regular hit her regularly hit her in the head. He would grab her by the hair and repeatedly slammed her head against the cabinets and the floor.

B (69:14)

Oh, boy.

A (69:15)

This is. These guys don't change. He threw a small sledgehammer at her. He's got a real thing for sledgehammers.

B (69:21)

Yeah. What is that?

A (69:23)

I don't know. Then after she tried to leave him, he would stalk her. He stalked her during the marriage. And after she tried to leave, he would sit in his car outside the gas station where she worked and then he would come in to intimidate customers who he felt said more than the thank you, have a good night to her. Anybody talked to her for more than a couple of seconds, he was in there yelling at them and intimidating them. He just burst through the door. Get away from my wife. Which is crazy. He would call her late at night to tell her where she'd been. So you did this, this and that tonight. And you were with Connie and you were with Bill, and you were with this one. You were with fucking all these people. And then even say, I like that green shirt you wore tonight, though you look pretty in that. In other words, I'm stalking you. Get away from that.

B (70:16)

He's using the information to do anything other than terrorize her. He's letting her know that he's doing it.

A (70:23)

Psychological warfare. He's not breaking up her evening. He's calling her after he knows she's home and saying, I saw everything you did tonight.

B (70:32)

I know what you did.

A (70:33)

Yep. This is the equivalent of someone calling and being like, I'm watching you in your house. Yeah.

B (70:39)

In the event that you want to do something that I wouldn't approve of.

A (70:43)

Understand that.

B (70:44)

I've already seen it.

A (70:45)

I've seen it. You can't hide from me. Her father tried to help her leave. He then threatened her father again. Now, this is twice.

B (70:53)

That's two. What do you do in that moment? Is that a challenge?

A (70:58)

I think you killed this man. And you call the cops and you go, guy's been beating the shit out of my daughter and won't let her leave. And then threatened me twice. Challenged me twice. What are the laws here anyway? You know, Candy described him as a, quote, switch type personality changing from sweet to nasty in a split second. She said that's what everybody keeps saying about him. There's no ramp up, there's no, she doesn't do that. He goes from that to, fuck you, I'm beating you. No warning, no nothing. You never know when it's coming. She said, Candy, that he would beat her regularly when she did something that he didn't. Like. Once she came home late from a meeting at work. He suspected she was having an affair. So that's one of the times he knocked her down and then repeatedly slammed her head against the kitchen cabinets and the kitchen floor. That's 80s linoleum we're talking about.

B (71:57)

If you believe that, then leave.

A (72:00)

Yeah, I would say, please leave, but I don't know. I think she's. I mean, he even threatened her dad. I think she's scared. You might be right.

B (72:10)

He does all that and he threatens the one guy in your life that is your protector outside of him. Then what choice do you have?

A (72:18)

I think you're terrified. I really think he terrified this poor woman, and she's scared that if she leaves, it's gonna be worse. That's what happens. That's scary. She finally, finally, finally got out of there. She grabbed her last paycheck and she had been giving her father a little money every week to hold for her as an escape fund. This is like Omar giving Butchie his bank, basically. And this is what happened. She got her last paycheck and the money. She had her father gather up and she fucking took off. Basically. She ran away when he found out. Billy Wayne told her father that he better watch his back because I know you helped her. Oh, that's three times. Yeah, that's three.

B (73:05)

I don't. I mean, if we're giving leeway at all.

A (73:08)

Come on. I gave him three chances.

B (73:10)

There's not a jury in the land.

A (73:12)

Three chances. He's. Yeah. Beating my fucking daughter and threatening me. Sorry, but I think anybody would go, how do you not fucking murder this guy?

B (73:21)

Like, how do you not at least lash any. Any at least.

A (73:26)

Isaiah. Pistol whipping at the least. Right.

B (73:28)

Some sort of violent to tell him you think you're not fucking around.

A (73:32)

Exactly. I'm not fucking around.

B (73:34)

I'm 100% not.

A (73:36)

He put an extra shotgun in his truck rack that he has in his cab there. Now, during their separation, she said that he would call her frequently and beg her to come back, though Billy Wayne on several occasions. She said he called and threatened to kill her and her small dog.

B (73:55)

And your dog too.

A (73:57)

And your little dog too. Because she left and the dog is still there. So he's got the dog, okay? So he says, I will kill your dog. I'll hurt your dog since I have your dog here. She said to drive home. His point, he would hurt the dog in some way to make it Yelp on the phone, pinch it or does do something to this poor little fucking dog to make it Yelp. They were finally divorced in December of 1987. So for over six years she put up with this fucking guy, okay? Now at this time he's doing some electrician type work. I assume he's not like licensed and bonded and all that shit. He's not in the union, probably.

B (74:40)

Probably not, no.

A (74:42)

He also works at a drive in movie theater doing maintenance. That seems like more his speed. So it's at this time that he meets Karen, who we talked about. Karen Vica, who we talked about before. Now Karen will be his third wife. Like I said, she brings three daughters to this at the time. A 15 year old, a 13 year old and a nine year old. You want to put them in his wheelhouse. But she doesn't know about any of this stuff, though. She has no way of knowing this. He's never been arrested for child molestation or domestic violence, so she couldn't even get a. You know, look it up and find out. Even back then.

B (75:19)

Yeah. Not only has it not been. He's not been arrested. It's just not even been documented yet.

A (75:23)

It's not been. Yeah, I mean, it hasn't been documented, so she has no way of knowing any of this. To her, he's a charming guy.

B (75:29)

Yeah.

A (75:30)

And like I said, she's twice divorced, looking for somebody, you know, friendly and whatever. And anyway, yeah, so she. At this point, she is 35 here, so that would make. Yeah, so 34. That's what she is. She met him when she was about 16, but now hasn't seen him in a long time. Meets him again around 34. They apparently ran around in the same groups even though he was a little bit older. And then they met at a Waco nightclub where Karen was out with a friend dancing, and he was there. And she had no idea, like I said, about any of this stuff. All she knew was he was a funny guy who seemed easy to be around and quote, and this is a gross quote, genuinely interested in her three daughters. I would say probably more than, you know. That's gross.

B (76:24)

That's such a flattering thing to say about a guy that you're dating that, like, he's genuinely interested in them.

A (76:31)

He cares about them.

B (76:32)

Cares, Right. Cares about the children.

A (76:34)

Genuine interest. God damn it.

B (76:37)

How much has that been ruined?

A (76:40)

God damn. That used to mean you were a good guy.

B (76:43)

Ignore your girlfriend's children.

A (76:45)

Don't even tell them all the time.

B (76:49)

That's much more appealing than the opposite.

A (76:51)

Listen, you have a father and then ignore them.

B (76:56)

Get the fuck away from me. I'm trying to bang your mom.

A (76:58)

Yeah, you go. Good, good.

B (77:02)

Yeah, that's a good guy.

A (77:04)

That's a good guy. At least he's not trying to fuck those kids. Karen said he could be different people. He could lie to you and make you believe it. That is so strange to think that I was so gullible. I feel pretty much taken in, just as Pam and Candy were. That's what she says once things get going. But they'd both been married twice. They were both looking for a stable family environment. They both have kids. So In July of 1988, they get married. Wow. It's happening. Karen works at a jewelry store and he is working at a local drive in movie theater. And they're living in her trailer in Axtel, on the road with her family. Same road.

B (77:44)

Oh, boy.

A (77:45)

Okay. Now 1989 comes around and, I mean, we are like six months into this marriage, newlywed, still.

B (77:53)

It's brand new.

A (77:54)

Things are already falling apart. Really? Yeah. It took him like three years in the first marriage to become a monster. Took him about a year, the second marriage, and now he's got off. He's got down six months now.

B (78:07)

She's streamlinely abuse.

A (78:08)

He really is. He's getting really streamlined with it, which, you know, after a while you start to figure things out and you start to figure out how to be more efficient, really.

B (78:16)

That's just a guy that's good at what he does.

A (78:18)

Psycho. Yeah, yeah. He's looking for efficiencies and he's looking on how to maximize them.

B (78:23)

What a piece of shit.

A (78:24)

God damn it. So she noticed his personality switches, the way she called it. And she was worried by his interest in watching young girls. Yeah, that's. Any interest in that whatsoever is dangerous. Then at one point, Pam, first wife ends up talking to Karen. Oh, yeah. They end up chatting on the phone. Now, I don't know if Pam called Karen or Karen called Pam, but perhaps.

B (78:55)

Perhaps she called to talk to Gordon.

A (78:58)

That's possible. But however it happened, they got on the phone and Karen found out that basically that Billy wayne had fondled two teenage girls who lived near him about 15 years ago when she was still married to him, two neighborhood girls. So he denied the allegations, but still she confronted him. Karen went and said, did you fucking molest a couple of girls? And he said, no. No. What are you talking about? So he denies it, but she was still like, okay, this is weird. And she wants out. And the thing about it is, she comes from a healthy family, right? She comes from a nice family. So she hears one thing and says, fuck that. I'm out of here.

B (79:37)

Great.

A (79:38)

Do you know what I mean? She's not putting up with that shit. She doesn't take her 10 years. So that's it. She wants an uncle. She said, I don't want a divorce. Uncontested. We don't have kids together. We don't have assets or anything. You live in my trailer or. Let's just call it a day.

B (79:51)

You take your stuff and get the fuck out of here.

A (79:53)

Yeah, take your four garbage bags and go. That's it.

B (79:56)

Take your fucking sledgehammers.

A (79:59)

But he did not want to do this. Basically, he wanted to try to get her car from her, because that's what she loved. She had a 68 Mustang.

B (80:10)

Oh, not bad.

A (80:11)

So pretty cool car. And he wants it. And he threatened because she is gonna keep it. He ends up threatening to destroy it. Said, I'll wreck your car. I'll take your car apart, I'll fuck it all up. He started randomly calling her at work. He'd show up at her job unannounced and just act crazy, which is interesting. Then Karen called Pam back and said, by the way, you told me about the molesting and all that, but when you were married to him, did he treat you this way? The stalking and the craziness and. And Pam's like, let me tell you 10 worse stories than that.

B (80:50)

I got a lot of them.

A (80:51)

Yeah, yeah. I'll show you some medical fucking history. And you can see.

B (80:55)

Keep the baseballs away from him too.

A (80:57)

Yeah, he's real good with a bat and a sledgehammer and a ball too. Now, August 20, 1989. So they've been technically married a year, but it's over. It's over. They're estranged at this point. Karen goes out to a bar with a girlfriend one night. Sure. She came out to the parking lot to go to her car to drive home. Normal gets in her car, starts the car, starts driving completely uneventful, like any other. Like you can get out anywhere and drive home. The Mustang. Yeah. Then out of nowhere, the back seat folds down. Oh, no. And from the trunk emerges Billy Wayne with a knife in his hand.

B (81:42)

Oh, my God.

A (81:43)

Imagine how terrifying it is. It's one o' clock in the morning. You're driving on a dark rural Texas road and all of a sudden your seat pops out and your crazy ex, soon to be ex husband pops out of the trunk with a knife.

B (81:57)

That is so scary. And she saw him come in there like before he grabbed her and you know what I mean, she heard the

A (82:06)

seat came down and he's right there. Hey. He's talking shit and he's got a knife in his hand. She probably. They screamed, swerved. I mean, how terrifying would that be?

B (82:14)

Worse than bees being in your car, right?

A (82:16)

Way worse than bees. Way worse than fucking. This is crazy. He's gonna stab you. So anyway, that means he was hiding in her trunk the whole fucking night.

B (82:26)

He locked himself in her trunk for

A (82:28)

God knows how long.

B (82:30)

How knows?

A (82:30)

We have no idea. He popped out of the trunk with a knife, jumped over the console halfway into the front seat. So he's like kind of got his one foot in the front seat there and kind of half in the back seat, and he puts the knife up against her ribs and told her to keep driving until they reached a field.

B (82:50)

Oh, my God.

A (82:51)

He then told her to stop the car in the field. And he told her, quote, if I can't have you, then no one else can.

B (82:57)

Oh, Jesus, that'll just horrifying.

A (83:01)

He then pulls out a roll of black electrical tape. Okay? Now, anybody with any radar for anything would know they're in a very bad spot right now. She can't run because he's holding her. He's got a knife on her. But she talking. She can talk. Once she sees that electrical tape comes out, she's like, I better start talking real fucking fast. So she talks and talks and gets him to just talk for about two hours and wears him down and convinced him that. But you showed me how much you love me by what you're willing to do here. I'll reconsider the divorce just to get out of the car.

B (83:37)

Yeah.

A (83:38)

You tell him anything at this point? Oh, yeah, you're great. Yeah. You run for president, I'll be your campaign manager. Whatever the fuck you want to hear. I don't care. You're the best guitar player I've ever heard.

B (83:48)

We're going to make.

A (83:49)

Whatever he wants to hear. Yeah, whatever he wants to hear. You tell him at that point. So he let her go. Yeah, he let her go.

B (83:57)

Let her take her car. And he got out. Or he took her car.

A (84:00)

I assume she drove. They drove to a mutually advantageous point or whatever. But. Because at that point, the way she's saying it is, we're gonna work it all out. We're gonna work it out. I'm gonna go home and think about it. And I'm sorry I put you through all this, and obviously I've made you crazy. I feel bad. She played every card she could to be safe and good for her. But she got home and immediately called her brother Bobby, who is a Waco Police Sergeant.

B (84:24)

18 years.

A (84:25)

18 years. And Bobby said, fucking report the kidnapping. What are you doing?

B (84:30)

You gotta report you were kidnapped tonight.

A (84:32)

This is kidnapping at knifepoint. This is crazy. You have to report this.

B (84:36)

This is a big felony.

A (84:38)

It's really fucking wild. So now the complaint, basically, they send another cop to talk to her. And this cop, and she explains the whole thing. But she says that she would. She said, I don't know what to do. She tells the cop, I don't know. I'm gonna wait to decide whether I wanna file charges until after. Whatever. She said that she would defer her decision about whether to file charges. To the cop, she said, I don't know what to do here. The cop, I'll go talk to him. Yeah. The cop said, well, I'll go talk to him and find out anyway. He's arrested for this kidnapping.

B (85:17)

Yeah.

A (85:18)

He's released on bail. Officer James Head, who made the arrest, recalled something later on. He said he looked in his patrol car rearview mirror, you know, from. You can see the guy in the backseat and saw Kobel staring at him. He said with a look that made the hair on the back of his head stand up. He said, gave me the heebie jeebies, or the hee geebee gees as they're known here on small town murder. The old Hiji Bee Gees. The Hee Gee Bee Gees. That's what, Oregon. The Oregon pig farmer case. You can hear why that's the heejeebee gees.

B (85:54)

The employee said that a lady gave him.

A (85:58)

She gave me the heejeebee gees, man. So this is a cop who. I mean, everyone in the back seat is not happy to be there.

B (86:06)

Yeah.

A (86:07)

I would assume a lot of them are giving you dirty looks.

B (86:10)

Yeah.

A (86:10)

And he's like, this look was different. It was creepy. Then after a pause for effect, Billy Wayne says, they're gonna be sorry, who's that? Oh, no, they. They're gonna be sorry, who's that? Who's they? The cops. Karen, my ex wife. All of them. Who knows Overtold.

B (86:31)

Yeah.

A (86:32)

Yeah. So he said that this officer was so unnerved by it. Again, guys talk shit in the backseat all the time. But this struck something different. He called Bobby directly and warned him about Billy. This guy, I think he's gonna fuck with you guys. I think he's gonna try to do something to you guys, so you better watch out. And Bobby took it seriously, too. He's not fucking around. No. And a cop. He's seen this before. If you've been a cop for 18 years, you've seen domestic violence that started off with you going there because someone slapped someone or pushed someone. And then you go back five years later because someone killed someone. You've done it as a cop. So he knows this is bad. So he gets Karen a guard dog for her house.

B (87:11)

Okay, Fair.

A (87:12)

A big German shepherd that's trained to bite people.

B (87:15)

Dang.

A (87:16)

Probably an ex police dog, I would assume.

B (87:20)

German. Those are frightening.

A (87:21)

Yeah, those are scary dogs. And it's supposed to basically be both an alarm system and a protector.

B (87:27)

Yeah, sure.

A (87:28)

About five days later, three days later, he, Billy Wayne calls Karen and says, oh, I see you've got a dog now. That's a big mean dog you've got there. Two days later, she found the dog dead in the front yard.

B (87:43)

Oh, my God.

A (87:44)

We don't know what killed it, but dead in the front yard. So we don't know if he poisoned it. There was no blood or anything. So it wasn't like a stabbing or a murder. We don't know if this threw him a piece of poisoned meat or something like that. Killed the dog, Meatball? Yeah, yeah, killed the dog. Allegedly.

B (88:00)

Yeah. The dog is dead.

A (88:02)

Dog is dead. So while he's out on bail killing dogs and such, he's also doing some wacky shit that people are starting to get worried about. He starts throwing away all of his prized possessions. Oh, things, metals, things that he had. Things that are important to him. Just throw them. Just tossing them, getting rid of them.

B (88:20)

Throw them in the trash.

A (88:21)

Yep. He started talking about Vietnam all the time, which everyone said he'd never talked about anything about combat before. And all of a sudden now he's just talking about Vietnam. Throwing out prized possessions or. Like, this is weird. And everybody starts.

B (88:35)

Yeah.

A (88:36)

People start thinking he's suicidal.

B (88:38)

Yeah. A huge percentage of the guys that were in Vietnam do not talk about Vietnam.

A (88:42)

No. Most people.

B (88:44)

It's not a thing that they. No, they don't want to talk about.

A (88:47)

No. That's kind of how you can tell if someone's actually been there in places like that or not. If they want to talk about it,

B (88:52)

probably they want to tell you stories that are either lying or they're psychotic as fuck.

A (88:58)

One or the other.

B (89:00)

Or they just weren't there at all.

A (89:02)

No, but his family and people around him start. Like his older sister, they start thinking that he's suicidal. He's doing all sorts of weird shit. On August 29, 1989 in the morning, he threw his truck keys at his older sister and said, if anything happens, the truck is yours, and then leaves. Doesn't give any further explanation of what he's doing or where he's going. Then later that day, at the old Vica family houses. This is the whole line of houses. I'm going to read this from a newspaper article here. The houses are engulfed by sprawling pastures, old trees and country quiet that reflect the family's agricultural heritage. It was in this area that Czech farmer Rudolph, he was probably Visha back then. Settled with his family after arriving in 1913. This has been family land for 100 years, seeking a better life among his countrymen. Already settled in Central Texas. His wife bore six of the couple's seven children in the area. And their descendants cluster there still. They said all our lives the Vica family has lived here. A neighbor said, we thought it would be a better place to raise a family. Everybody helps everybody. Everybody is concerned about everybody. We're a close knit family, right? So that's the street. This is a close family that's been close for 100 years. This asshole doesn't fit into this group.

B (90:27)

No, not at all.

A (90:28)

Not at all. These are decent people. So on this day, early afternoon now, okay, Bobby's girlfriend arrives. I think Bobby is divorced because he's got two kids. He's divorced. Bobby's girlfriend arrives at Karen's house. Okay, now arrives at Karen's trailer because I think she's gonna pick up Bobby's kids who a lot of times go there after school if Bobby's still at work. Or Bobby's kid, J.R. the 11 year old, he'll go there after school to be with his cousins and whatever. Cause why go home to an empty house if you're 11, you know, or

B (91:04)

just be watched in general.

A (91:05)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they said that the trailer is well set, well back into a pasture. It's a tan double wide trailer home. What she does is she arrives, looks through the window and sees a terrifying thing. She sees Karen in handcuffs, clearly freaking out and in some sort of distress. Now she doesn't know where Bobby is, her boyfriend, this is Bobby's girlfriend. So she gets in her car and drives to Bobby's house. She left her in there because I think. Because what's she gonna do, go in there? What if something's going on? Now you're a hostage too. She doesn't necessarily. Right, I'm in trouble.

B (91:52)

Yeah.

A (91:52)

But still she drives down the street to Bobby's house and she gets out and looks around outside of the house. There's blood everywhere. There's blood everywhere. There's plants and furniture upended. There's disarray.

B (92:07)

Oh boy.

A (92:08)

So it's at this point she calls the sheriff's department and says, just saw my boyfriend's sister in handcuffs. And I come down here, there's blood everywhere. There's something going on here at the old compound. You better come out. Better come out and see. So the police arrive, they arrive at Bobby's house. It's a cluster property, cluster on a stretch of a road in Axtell. And they first arrive actually here at the parents house. They arrive at the parents house. At the parents house, they find Robert, the dad. 64, inside the house, covered with blankets and towels on the floor. He's been shot. It's in the kitchen of his house. Then Zelda apparently got home from work and was shot in the garage.

B (92:59)

Oh shit.

A (93:01)

And she is shot. We'll talk about their injuries here. Then they go over and they find Bobby in his garage. He's also dead. So now you've killed the police sergeant. They're not going to be happy about this.

B (93:13)

You've killed three people. One, the police sergeant and his parents.

A (93:17)

And his parents. That's what I mean. Yeah. If you're. Wow. Bobby was shot multiple times in the neck during a struggle. His service weapon was used against him. Him.

B (93:26)

Oh, wow.

A (93:28)

Yes. A pathologist with the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences said that all three victims probably lost consciousness or died within seconds of being struck by gunshots.

B (93:39)

Wow.

A (93:40)

And we'll talk about their wounds and all that in a second here. But I don't want to lose the narrative of what's going on. So then they go to Karen's house and this they find an even more horrifying scene at Karen's house. Well, I mean, maybe not more horrifying, but. But different. Horrifying but terrible. Okay.

B (93:56)

I mean he's eliminating the people so that he can get to what his plan. Really?

A (94:01)

Exactly. And we know Karen was handcuffed, so she's been in contact.

B (94:06)

Yeah, and he's been shot in the neck. So he's going to exact revenge way harder on her.

A (94:13)

Yeah, no shit. Well, that's the thing. When they get to the house, you know who's not there? Karen. Uh oh, she's gone. But you know who is there? Four children. Her three daughters and 11 year old Junior Bobby's son. They are all handcuffed and tied to a bed with their mouths. Shit. Taped shut. But alive.

B (94:34)

Wow.

A (94:35)

They are alive but literally handcuffed and fucking taped to beds.

B (94:40)

And Karen is gone.

A (94:42)

And Karen is gone. Gone.

B (94:44)

Oh boy.

A (94:45)

Okay, so they're obviously looking for Karen and this idiot Billy Wayne. So they end up after dark. After a few hours, they end up finally locating him and her. And they have a high speed pursuit that ends up ending in a crash. He ends up there's some shit on the side of the road and he hits it and crashes and fucks the car up. They get in a nasty accident.

B (95:12)

The Mustang.

A (95:13)

Karen had to be. I'm not sure if it's the Mustang. Karen had to be cut out of the car with face lacerations and bleeding from several stab wounds inflicted by Billy Wayne, as they drove.

B (95:26)

Oh, Jesus.

A (95:27)

She ends up surviving this, though, somehow. Stab wounds, car accident, handcuffs, everything. She survives it. Now at the hospital, Billy Wayne has no qualms about what he did. He's telling everybody what he did.

B (95:46)

Doesn't give a fuck, which all do.

A (95:47)

Yeah, he literally was. He told one of the cops, said the guy telling the nurses, that he just killed three people while she was bandaging his hand.

B (95:58)

Oh, my God.

A (95:59)

At one point he said, have you ever seen somebody who just killed three people? He said it real proudly, they said, to a nurse treating him. So then he tells him exactly what happened. And also we know from Karen what happened from the forensic evidence. And we can piece it all together. And here's what this fucking psychopath did.

B (96:20)

He's telling the nurses, no.

A (96:22)

He tells the cops later, tells everybody. Anyone who'll ask, he doesn't care. Tell whoever. Early afternoon, Karen's at work. Empty house. He arrived. Billy Wayne arrived at the house and went inside and waited for her. He's gonna surprise her. But the children came home from school. Three daughters, 16, 14 and 10. They come home on the school bus. And there's also 11 year old Bobby with him as well. Okay. Or J.R. i mean, Bobby's son. Normally he'd go to his own house, but his father's still at work. So he said, I'll come over and hang out with the cousins. Basically. Now, J.R. describes it. He says, I can remember walking in and Bill was in there and so were my other cousins. I remember he took my lunchbox and set it on the table, which is a weird gesture. He had three sets of handcuffs ready, one for each of the daughters. This is a plan. He brought a set of handcuffs for each daughter and he brought an extra one for Karen. Now there's four kids, but he can't use Karen's cuffs on the fourth kid because he needs those for Karen. So that's when he gets some rope instead to tie up JR this is

B (97:40)

the variable that he didn't plan on.

A (97:42)

Didn't plan on the 11 year old being here. Yeah. A sixth grader throws a fucking wrench in the whole thing for him. J.R. said he took us into Ann Marie's bedroom and put us on one corner of the bed. Put us each on one corner of the bed. I don't remember what he used on me. Maybe some rope or something. Okay. Karen's oldest daughter heard him cut the telephone lines to the house. He taped their mouths closed. Imagine if you're these kids. How terrified are you? This is the Scariest thing ever.

B (98:14)

You can't use your mouth.

A (98:16)

And this isn't even a stranger. This is a person you know is dangerous because your fucking mother has told you how dangerous it is. He is. He then tells Karen's daughters, quote, I wish I had blown you away like I intended to. And then he says, well, you guys better say goodbye to your mother. And then he left.

B (98:36)

And took her with him.

A (98:37)

No, left. Karen's not even there yet. She's still at work. He just said, better say goodbye to your mother because she ain't gonna be around anymore. And then he leaves. And the kids are left tied up, thinking that this man's gonna go kill their mother. Now, okay, it couldn't be worse. So he leaves the house. Now Bobby comes home. The police sergeant just gets off his shift, comes home to his ranch. He starts doing work around the property. Normal shit that he would do. Water this, pick up that, whatever. He didn't know that Billy Wayne was already handcuffing the children and doing all that at the house. So Billy Wayne catches Bobby out in the open outside. He's just out there doing yard work, so he's got no way to go. Bobby saw what's happening and he dove back toward his car, going for his service weapon in the car because he sees Billy Wayne coming at him. He manages to get a shot off and wound Billy Wayne in the right hand. But somehow out of this, Billy Wayne gets. Now, Billy had his own gun, too. He had a.38. So I think he's shooting, too. But somehow he gets the service weapon away from Bobby.

B (99:52)

Okay.

A (99:54)

And somehow got him away and basically pressed the gun. It's a.357, by the way.

B (100:00)

Yeah, that's a lot of weapon.

A (100:01)

Presses the gun against Bobby's neck and fires multiple shots.

B (100:05)

Good Lord.

A (100:07)

With a.300 and.57, you're basically. There's no neck anymore.

B (100:10)

No.

A (100:11)

The prosecutor later said that he practically decapitated him when he shot him just with his gun. He's shot in the side of the neck at close range and in the thigh and in the right knee and in the index finger as well. These are all Bobby's wounds. He's later found, though, inside his car in the garage. So Billy Wayne put him in the car and moved it into the garage.

B (100:37)

Jesus Christ.

A (100:39)

That's why when the girlfriend came home, she saw a bunch of blood outside, but couldn't find anything, so couldn't find him. Investigators believe that they struggled over the gun when Bobby was shot in the leg. They think that he Scrambled back to the car to get his.357 that he carried while off duty and was hit by the fatal shot in his neck at that point. So then he goes back to the kid's house. Yeah, back to Karen's house. Back to four tied up kids. JR recalled that when he came back, he, quote, kept bragging about how he was going to be on America's Most Wanted. So he's not trying to hide anything. He's telling him, I'm going to be on America's Most Wanted. Wait till you see what I'm doing.

B (101:22)

That means he's going to run. You know what I mean? He's about to disappear.

A (101:27)

I'm not going to get caught is what that means. JR said later on, it's sociopathic, is what you call it. Narcissistic. That's a Jesus, to put it mildly, narcissistic. He's in the middle of a murder spree and he's like, I'm going to be famous.

B (101:41)

I'm going to get away with this.

A (101:43)

I'm going to get away with this. At least for a little while.

B (101:45)

AI this, AI that. I get it. I'm so sick of people telling me to just use AI.

A (101:53)

But weirdly enough, wix's new AI website builder really works for me. Me, it's called WIX Harmony.

B (101:59)

And here's the thing. I get to choose how to use AI.

A (102:03)

I get everything I need to create a website.

B (102:05)

And I can either have Aria, my AI agent, design things for me, or I can edit things myself.

A (102:12)

Try it for free@wix.com harmony so he left the children again. He went back just to talk shit to the kids. Literally just to say, I'm gonna be all America's Most Wanted. What do y' all think of that?

B (102:23)

I'm about to get a TV credit, y'. All.

A (102:25)

And then he left. Someone's about to get a job playing me in a reenactment. Everybody. So then he crosses the street and it's late afternoon, and that's where Robert Karen's dad, is home. He was inside his house when Billy Wayne just came through the door, guns blazing. Shot him in his own kitchen. Poor Robert. They found him later, like I said, covered in blankets and towels. They said that he was shot twice in the back of the head from a range of 3 to 4ft or beyond, but maybe a little bit more, but not much. So pretty goddamn close.

B (103:07)

Sounds like he didn't know it was Billy Wayne when he.

A (103:10)

No. Yeah. No. This poor bastard. I mean, this is Fucking crazy. Crazy. So then, early evening, Zelda returns home from work. The foot doctor? Yeah, she'd been at work all day. And she came home, pulled into her garage, where Billy Wayne was hiding and waiting for her. She never knew what hit her. She never knew anything. She came home, she was walking, and they said that she was shot in the left side of the face from a range of 6 inches to 2ft.

B (103:40)

Oh, he was probably popped up in shadows.

A (103:42)

What a. Popped up and said, hey, boom. And shot her. That's. That's disturbing. Disturbing. So then he goes back to Karen's house to wait for Karen. It's a very rural area. They're the only ones on the street or the family, so no one's called the cops about. Multiple.357 gunshot blasts throughout the neighborhood. Karen gets home from work, she walks in, and there's Billy Wayne waiting for her, coming out of one of the bedrooms with a gun. He said, quote, karen, I've killed your mama and your daddy and your brother, and they're all dead, and no one's gonna come help you now.

B (104:22)

Oh, boy.

A (104:23)

That is some disturbing shit. Karen didn't believe him at first. Didn't believe him. Thought he was full of shit.

B (104:32)

I mean, he has lied a lot.

A (104:34)

He's lied a lot. And that's something that would scare her. Then he'd be like, well, I guess I. You know, whatever. But he then showed her Bobby's service revolver on the kitchen table. That's your brother's gun. Then he pulled the curtains back so she could see her father's pickup truck parked behind the house. Your dad's truck right there. Then he showed her $1,000 in cash that he'd taken from Zelda. So I have all your people's shit. Where would I get that if I didn't do that? He told Karen, by the way, and this is the craziest fucking thing ever. He said, you're lucky I didn't molest your daughters, too. That's what he said. You're lucky. You're lucky I didn't molest your daughters. You should be thanking me.

B (105:22)

I'm just a murderer.

A (105:24)

I mean, I'm a molester, too, but not here, not with these kids. I didn't molest these kids today.

B (105:28)

I'm a lowly murderer.

A (105:30)

Yeah. And he wanted to, I'm sure, too. Believe me.

B (105:33)

She was really tempting me.

A (105:35)

Wow. And then he told her to say goodbye to her children.

B (105:39)

Okay.

A (105:40)

Okay. So she kissed them goodbye with her hands cuffed. This is around the time must have been when the girlfriend came home and saw her through the window with hands cuffed. Wow. Then he takes Karen and drives away. I think they're in the dad's pickup truck, if I'm not mistaken. He would later tell Karen about Bobby. He put up one hell of a fight. I chased him down the road one way and I chased him back. And then I shot him. And he was going for the gun in the car and he wouldn't die. So finally I had to blow a hole in that big neck of his.

B (106:17)

Oh, boy.

A (106:20)

Yeah, that is crazy. And then she tells her about her mom, too. She says, I really hated to do that to your mom. And then we know this isn't true because she never got in the house. But he said, but when she found out about your dad, she just went crazy. So I had to. But she never found out about the dad. He just snuck up on a senior citizen woman and shot her like a pussy. That's what he did. So then he takes Karen for a ride. She's cuffed and in the car. Oh, it's into her car, into the Mustang.

B (106:52)

All right.

A (106:53)

He said he was going to take her away for a few weeks to torture her. And then I'll kill you. But you're going to be tortured for weeks first. So he drove. Now, as they drove, Karen is not taking this lightly. She's struggling, she's fighting. She managed to get one hand free from the cuff somehow. So she grabbed the steering wheel and made the car swerve into a ditch. Trying to get somebody's attention is essentially what it is. She then grabbed one of his guns and pointed it at his stomach and pulled the trigger. But it was empty. It didn't fire. Nothing happened. So they end up fighting over the weapon. He grabs it and he pulls it several times and it still doesn't fire. The gun's fucked up. Somehow he tried to kill her. He's going to kill her right there. So then he pistol whipped her until she was so bloody she couldn't even see. Just pistol whipped her head. Then at that point, a woman drives past them screaming, what are you trying to do to that woman? So he drove at. Because this is in the ditch on the side of the road. So someone probably pulled over to try to help them and was like, what are you doing to that woman? So he drove out of the ditch with her covered in blood in the passenger seat. He shouted at her for getting blood on his clothes. And he said, for that I'm gonna fucking kill you because you got Blood on my fucking clothes. Pissed. Then he. I don't even know how to explain this. We've had a lot of weird people on our show before. This is small town murder. We've had some of the craziest fucks who've ever existed on this show.

B (108:37)

Yeah, we really fucked.

A (108:40)

We've never really had this. No particular thing that's gonna happen. Now he starts simultaneously rubbing her crotch. This is while he's driving, mind you, rubbing her crotch. And at the same time telling her, because you pressed charges for kidnapping, you've ruined my reputation.

B (109:02)

What is that?

A (109:03)

So I'm gonna, like, you know, sexually assault you while I tell you that you've ruined my reputation because I'm a scumbag and all.

B (109:10)

You've made everybody think I'm a piece of shit, As I.

A (109:14)

As I clearly am, as I sexually assault you after I murdered your family and handcuffed your kids and said, you're lucky I didn't molest your daughters.

B (109:23)

You made me be the worst thing ever.

A (109:26)

Wow. You made me. What are you gonna do? He said, I had no choice. He said he then drove to a deserted field. This is in Basque county, okay. Or however you say that. And threatened to rape her in the field. I'm just gonna rape you in this field. Okay? He told her that? Yeah. He said, I'm gonna keep you hostage for about two weeks and torture you. And then they're in the field and it's waiting for it to get dark, basically, so they can drive more, but they don't want to be on the road. He doesn't want to be on the road. He said, once it's, you know, while they're waiting. He said, look, I know I'm a dead man. I get that. He said, but you're gonna have to live with what I did to your family for the rest of your life. I'll be dead, but you'll have to live with this shit. So after dark, he left. The field creeps away. Unfortunately for him, a 68 Mustang kind of stands out. Yeah, it's not. This is 89. It's not an 87 Honda Civic. You know what I mean? It stands out. So a sheriff's patrol car spots the car, turns around and follows. So they're in pursuit, lights on and everything. It's at this point that Billy Wayne grabs his knife and began stabbing Karen just randomly in the passenger seat. In the chin, in the forehead, in the nose. He's literally keeping his eye on the road, just stabbing her face while he's Going, oh, boy. Saying, I don't want to die in prison. I don't know how stabbing me is going to help right now. So you got a cop behind you. Should worry about him. He then floored it and intentionally. They feel like rammed into a parked car.

B (111:02)

Thought it would kill her or whatever.

A (111:05)

Thought it would kill him. They thought it was an attempt to kill them both. But they both survive. After the crash, they're sitting there and there's steam and shit dripping and a post car crash. He turned his head over to Karen and said, I guess now you'll get a new car.

B (111:25)

Oh, boy.

A (111:27)

And then the cops come and they get him. The one cop said the chase didn't last very long. The guy sped up to 80, then intentionally ran into a truck that had pulled over to the side of the road. That's what he was trying to do. Suicide and another murder. That's what it is. Now, inside the car, they find two handguns. Here they retrieve a.38 caliber revolver and a.357 caliber revolver. In the car after the wreck, they found six spent.300 and.57 caliber shells and two spent.38 caliber shells in Billy Wayne's pocket. After they pulled him out of the wreckage, they had to get the Jaws of Life to cut them out of here. It was crazy. They also found a wallet belonging to Robert, Karen's dad, and $916 in cash that was taken from Zelda. So they have that. Wow. So he's gonna be released from the hospital after a while and transferred to jail. While Karen's gonna remain in the hospital to undergo treatment for all of her cuts and wounds and stabs and everything else here. The driver of the truck that they hit, that was a person in that truck, also remained in stable condition after the hospital. In the hospital as well. So obviously they arrest.

B (112:46)

Yeah, you don't.

A (112:48)

Yeah, yeah. I'll read this from the newspaper here, quote, a battered looking and wheelchair bound Billy Wayne Coble, identified by family members as a non smoking, non drinking Vietnam veteran, perhaps with mental problems. Perhaps.

B (113:05)

Yeah.

A (113:06)

Okay. Associated with the war, appeared yesterday before a Waco judge who set bond at $500,000. So they're gonna charge him with three murders. They're gonna charge him with kidnapping. I mean, the charges are. Jesus.

B (113:19)

So much trouble.

A (113:22)

So much trouble and even more Trouble. As the McClellan County Chief Deputy Don Weinberg said, I fully anticipate capital murder charges will be filed. It certainly justifies it and warrants it.

B (113:34)

You killed a cop in Texas. I don't give a Shit about anything else in this case.

A (113:38)

Oh, yeah. You killed a cop and his parents. Yeah. And then kidnapped his sister and tied up his son and nieces. This is like. This is above and beyond.

B (113:49)

You're gonna die by fire ants here.

A (113:51)

Well, I mean, yeah, they do that. Just if you shot a cop who pulled you over, and that's just one cop on the side of the road that's not going to his house and killing him with his own service weapon, that's an extra level of stank. So Karen remained at the hospital. Like I said, she's in stable condition, so it's not good. Her cousin, who was kind of speaking for the family at this point, said he's a dangerous man and this was a cold blooded act. We hope that there will be a very speedy trial and swift justice. And there's no doubt. He told everyone he did it. He told everyone at the hospital he did it. That whole story came just as much from him as from anybody else.

B (114:33)

You're not getting a plea bargain offer, right?

A (114:35)

I would hope not. For what? They have all the evidence.

B (114:38)

Right? That's my point. They've got a slam dunk here.

A (114:40)

Absolutely. The attorney said that despite the warning signs, he believes that Karen was unprepared for what happened. The guy said, I don't think she expected this. The potential may have been there, they said, but she just wanted to get out of the marriage. She thought the biggest risk to her was her car being taken from her. This guy, there's another guy here says his advice to families when they feel they're in danger is to get out, whether by going to a shelter or moving away from the threatening relative. But it's not always that practical. And one person said, I doubt in this situation they could have done any differently. She got away from him. She called the cops. Her brother is a goddamn police sergeant that lives next door with a gun. She has a dog and her family. I mean, she did every goddamn thing she could have done. And you can't account for this kind of crazy shit. Someone who's willing to go down with the ship, you can't account for that.

B (115:32)

Right. She needs Secret Service level protection. She needs a bodyguard at all times.

A (115:37)

At all times.

B (115:37)

Unfeasible.

A (115:38)

And then how do you pretend that her family's in trouble too?

B (115:42)

Whatever it is?

A (115:43)

Yeah, not feasible. In addition to that, the dad, Robert, his sister ends up dying as well after cancer surgery, like the next day after all this happened.

B (115:57)

God.

A (115:58)

So this woman, or yes, something like. Oh, no, it's the mother that's right. This is the mother.

B (116:07)

The mother of who? Robert, I believe.

A (116:10)

Robert. It's Robert's mother.

B (116:12)

Oh my God.

A (116:13)

An old woman. Put it this way. Harry Pottsek, who's the 77 year old woman's son. Okay, nevermind. It's not Robert's mother. It's. I think it's Robert's sister. Okay, Robert's sister, I guess this would be Robert's nephew said her death is fine. I have no problem with that. She went out like she wanted to. She's with the Lord, she's happy. But this other is totally senseless.

B (116:40)

She went out like she wanted to.

A (116:42)

She's an old lady who died of cancer. You know what I mean? That's fine. Yeah, but she died probably surrounded by her family is probably what it is in couple A, you know, not. It was a peaceful in her garage

B (116:53)

with a slug in her chest.357 in her fucking neck.

A (116:57)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is horrible. Yeah, that's. The dead woman's brother was Robert. So this would have been Karen's aunt that died here. They said in her living room of her house, just a few hundred yards from where the shootings occurred. That woman, Rosie Wood, 61, sat with her husband and tried to make some sense of the death. She said it's horrible. She's Angela's sister, the dead woman's sister. It's so senseless all this happening. You read about things happening like that. You never really think it can happen to your family.

B (117:30)

Right.

A (117:31)

So the investigators are building the case. They have all the evidence. They know he did it, but they're trying to figure out what's the motive here, Why. I mean, why did he snap like this?

B (117:42)

You could chase that all you want,

A (117:43)

but yeah, they said, the prosecutor said right now there's no motive. There's really no explanation that I know of. There are a lot of people involved as far as witnesses are concerned. It's just a slow process of putting it all together. And they were trying to build the motive. You don't need. That's not one of the necessary elements you need to prove is motive in court. You don't have to have any motive. But it helps when you're telling the story.

B (118:07)

It's nice. Yeah, right.

A (118:10)

The jury's like a narrative. They like a story. Whoever tells the better story wins basically. And if your story doesn't include a why, people think that's a missing part and they tend to have less to it. But if he's told you everything he did, the why doesn't matter at that point.

B (118:26)

And a fun part is when he's told you all of that, you just tell that story about how he told you all that and then go, if you want to know why he's right

A (118:36)

there, he's right there. Tell him to get on the stand.

B (118:38)

Ask him.

A (118:40)

Yup.

B (118:41)

So.

A (118:41)

But, yeah, it's more. In a case where the person is denying the murder, it's a much bigger deal to have a motive, obviously, because you're trying to tell the story. But anyway, they said his long history of violence against women that never really resulted in any criminal charges except nine days earlier when he kidnapped his wife there. But, yeah, the whole investigation, it comes out the abuse of Pam, the abuse of Candy, the molestations, raping his cousin, the $5 bill incident with his niece. And this is all gonna come out in court, too. Former wives, former neighbors. None of these people have spoken publicly or to law enforcement or anything. This is all coming out new here. So the prosecution, basically, their case is, he did it. This what he did this day. But this is 20 years he's been doing this for.

B (119:29)

Right.

A (119:29)

This is just the culmination. This is his peak moment here. Karen said, all of my life, we've been mother and daddy and brother and sister. This has been our family all my life. Now they're all gone, and I got left behind, and I am not the strong one. Bobby was always the strong one. She said, up until a month ago, we still slept with every light on in the house, and I would get up three or four times in the night to make sure the doors were locked. Until recently, we would still check all the closets when we come home. That's how scared they were of Billy.

B (120:01)

Wow.

A (120:02)

They were scared of him. Terrified. And that's a quote from much later. So she's like, it's been so long. Now, the thing that they're trying to push with the defense and the real question here is, is he crazy?

B (120:18)

He's certainly erratic and not.

A (120:22)

Yeah, he's got ptsd, he's got bipolar. But that doesn't meet the legal requirement for. Doesn't know the meaningfulness of his actions. Does it know consequences type thing?

B (120:33)

He said, adam Walsh's dad is about to roast me. So.

A (120:37)

Yeah. But he also said, I know I'm gonna go. You know, I know I'm a dead man. I mean, he's. Given what he's doing, he's aware.

B (120:44)

Yeah.

A (120:45)

Yeah. So his best friend James Steele, later told a journalist that interviews him, a journalist named Susanna Reid, who's a British journalist. She'll do an interview later. That's why I'll give her name now. She said that something bad had to happen for him to do what he did because Billy Wayne wasn't that type of person. Okay. Others disagreed here because they said it had to be war. He was talking about the war, something that had to have happened to him in Vietnam. One of his other friends said there are thousands of people who shot people in war and don't do stuff like this. I don't buy that as an excuse. I think it's just a legal tactic.

B (121:21)

Excellent. Excellent.

A (121:22)

I think it's a little of both, probably, but you can't kill people. No matter how fucked up you are. You can't kill anybody else. Kill yourself, I guess, but not everybody.

B (121:30)

Yeah. No matter what you do, when you go to court, you've gotta mount a legal defense. And one of them is creating a strategy.

A (121:37)

And they have no way to say he's innocent. None. The kids all. He tied everybody up. There's a million witnesses. He admitted it. There's fingerprints, the forensics. He's dead to rights. So his only case is he's crazy. Don't kill him. Spare him the death penalty. Because they're going for the death penalty.

B (121:52)

Fair. Yeah.

A (121:54)

The prosecution here. This is Ralph Strother, the da. He said, quote, there has to be an explanation for what he did. It wasn't just a situation where someone snaps and does something out of character. I mean, this wasn't like a heat of passion crime. He planned it. He had gone shopping, bought supplies. He built a silencer for his gun. This was premeditated.

B (122:15)

He had a silencer.

A (122:16)

Silencer. He had handcuffs. He had duct tape or electrical tape. He had all these different things, the

B (122:21)

right amount of handcuffs.

A (122:23)

Yeah, he went out. These weren't just in his garage. Oh, look, I have four. I'm lucky. He said, I need four. One for each girl and one for Karen. He also talks about Billy's wives here in court. They talk about the common thread among these women were, that is, quote, they had the misfortune of ever falling for his superficial charm. On the surface, yeah. On the surface, he radiated a lovable, nice, outgoing personality. But inside he was hollow. And on the inside was the viciousness. Every one of them, after they were with him for a while, realized the external glitter concealed a vicious interior. He also said that if we can get this going and you guys, all the jury, you know, can give him the death penalty. He said, quote, if this thing comes out the way we all want it to. You can call them three. The Three Merry Widows.

B (123:23)

Oh, boy.

A (123:24)

Which is an old. The Merry Widow is an old opera. So there's that. They also said he's vile and that he's. Would they say he's full of scorpions? That's what they said.

B (123:35)

Oh.

A (123:37)

Body full of scorpions. Full of scorpions, yeah. So weird thing to say in a court of law. The defense attorneys here, they said that they're gonna pull an insanity defense. He's a Vietnam combat veteran. And the experiences and the breakup of his marriage contributed to his unstable mental condition and prevented him from knowing right from wrong.

B (123:59)

Wow.

A (123:59)

But in the middle of it, he said, I know I'm a dead man and I'm gonna be on America's Most Wanted. So. Sounds like he knew right from wrong while it was happening. The prosecution presents the physical evidence. They have a confession. They have medical testimony, witness testimony from JR from the girls from the former wives and molested women. They bring in the girls he molested back in the day to testify against him. Karen. Psychiatric profiles assembled during his history. They have a lot on this guy. So Karen testifies and she says, he said, if he couldn't have me, nobody could have me. He said the divorce was all my fault and I could not treat him that way. She said that Pam had called her and Candy while she was married to Billy Wayne to ask if she had treated them the same way. Pam and Karen have remained friends mostly because Karen is close to. To Gordon, the son who goes to school with two of Karen's daughters. This poor kid. I feel horrible for Gordon too. He didn't do anything.

B (125:08)

He's got to see everybody every day now too.

A (125:10)

Yeah. And they gotta. Everyone in school knows your dad killed these kids. Family. That's horrible. They said Karen's girls have. This is Karen. Karen's girls or Pam? I'm sorry. Karen's girls have been a real supportive to Gwynne. That's Gordon. All of her family has. And Karen's been a great support to him. So. Karen's such a nice lady. She's still nice to the son, even. It's not like she knew him since they were four. They have only been together a year and a half. I mean, so that's really nice of her. So Karen said on the afternoon she got home from work and he popped out with a gun. And he said, I need to tell you that I've killed your mother and your father and your brother. Then she describes how she showed him the Proof. And here's your dad's pickup truck. And here's the service revolver. And she said. Then he told her to say goodbye to the restrained children because she would never see them again. That's what he told her. You're never going to see them again, so go say goodbye to your kids. And she said, I didn't want to leave them, but realized the only way that they would be safe would be if I got him away from the house and away from the kids, which is 100% true. If she causes a scene, it could be a bloodbath for everybody.

B (126:24)

That whole trailer is just soaked. Yeah.

A (126:26)

So her going, okay, yeah, no problem. Let's get out of here. That's a great way to protect your kids, honestly. I mean, it sounds crazy to leave them handcuffed, but it's better than them being murdered. I think she was brave to do that, to keep a brave face and go, okay, no problem. That's being a mom, you know, that's brave shit. She told the jurors how he described to her how he killed her brother after ambushing him. Then she paused, stared straight at Billy Wayne, and said, I hate you for making me go through all this again with my kids.

B (126:59)

I can't. Yeah.

A (127:00)

In her testimony, she said that. So the judge immediately called for a recess. His attorneys asked for a mistrial. Oh, this is a big deal. But the judge denied the mistrial and said, it's obvious that she would be upset about this. It's fine. There is a trial delay, though, not because of that. A threat against prosecutors was telephoned in during one of the court days here or before the court day. And they said, basically the man called and said that if Billy gets the death penalty, several people from the state will die, too, meaning the prosecutors. So there was a threat, so they had to do that, delay it. The molested girls testify. Two girls who were teenagers when they were fondled. These were the neighbors that Pam heard about. Yeah, I guess the two girls testify against him now, grown up, obviously, because they're, like, almost 30 now. His son has to testify also. And he took the witness stand to basically ask the jury not to kill my father, is what he did. Pam said, I think it was totally unfair for his lawyers and Billy Wayne to put his son through that. Probably right. But also, if you're trying to save yourself. Yeah. In closings here, the prosecutor said it was unfair for defense attorneys and witnesses to imply during the trial that the women somehow deserved the beatings. His defense was, anybody would have knocked her Around a little bit.

B (128:36)

Holy.

A (128:36)

That was his defense. Imagine going in front of a jury with that defense.

B (128:41)

What would you say?

A (128:42)

I mean, she's mouthy. What would you say? You know? Yeah, he didn't like what she made, of course. He threw the plate at her and then hit her with a sledgehammer. Who wouldn't?

B (128:49)

What would you do?

A (128:51)

I mean, what is he, a pussy? Come on, he's not gonna be punked out of his brud.

B (128:55)

Walk it to the trash.

A (128:57)

Well, now he has to find something else to eat. This is ridiculous. So, yeah, I don't know how you would even go about that, but the prosecutor said, we had extensive interviews with all three of his former wives. And despite the efforts of the defense to try to portray them as some type of hellions, they all seemed to us to be extremely nice, hard working, caring people who were victims of a brutal killer. They shouldn't be blamed for what he was. And that is what the defense tried to do. They were victims, just like a lot of people were who came in contact with this guy. Because basically, if you get the guy's ex wife up there to testify and she says all the horrible shit, as a defense attorney, you really have no comeback for that. Yeah, you don't. There's nothing you can say, well, didn't you do this so this would happen? No, she's talking about getting the shit beaten out of her. So that's one of those where you just no questions for this witness because you can't make anything good out of that at all.

B (129:52)

Yeah, that's tough.

A (129:53)

You don't go up and then go, didn't you do this? And didn't you deserve it? That's only gonna make the guy look worse.

B (129:57)

But what'd you make?

A (129:59)

Yeah, but honestly, did you put any effort into it? Be honest. You made Hamburger Helper and you burnt it. That hamburger was not helped by your actions, was it?

B (130:10)

Yes. You're a bad chicken. Can you say it out loud?

A (130:14)

Oh, my God, yeah, please say it out loud. So they said they should not be blamed for what he was, and that's what they tried to do. Yes, exactly. So the verdict comes in here and it comes back guilty of every goddamn charge against him. And they probably would have tried to add a couple more if they were allowed to. Hey, there's a few more things we'd like to blame him for. Maybe Watergate. Was he involved in that? Because, let's put it on him. Fuck this guy.

B (130:40)

If not, let's charge him with contributing to the terrible Water Table around here, please. With there's bodies, there's blood.

A (130:51)

There's gotta be something seeping into the water supply here. Come on.

B (130:54)

He did it. Yeah.

A (130:55)

He's ruining the aqueduct or the aquifer. That's what it's called. The aquifer is the fur.

B (131:00)

Same thing, right?

A (131:01)

An aqueduct, I think, takes the water while aquifer is the underground storage of the water. Yeah, I think I'm a scientist. Obviously, the doctor. Hey, everybody, I do know that we're not scientists, in case you're confused about the fact whether Jimmy and I were scientists.

B (131:17)

Aquifer is also an ointment.

A (131:20)

Oh, is it? That's right, it is. Yeah. It goes good on rashes and shit. So under the version of the Texas statute from which he was here to impose a capital sentence, the jury had to answer two questions in the affirmative. This is in Texas. Okay. The first is, is he a human? And the second is, do you like the look on his face or not? No, I'm kidding. That's not the two questions. The first special issue addressed whether the defendant had acted deliberately and with reasonable expectation that the death of the deceit. You know, dead people or another, would result. So, okay, did he deliberately do something that he figured a normal person would infer that they would die from on purpose? And the second question is whether there's a probability that the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a continuing threat to society in the future. In the future. See, this I don't understand. Because if life in prison is the only other option, then his continuing threat to society is zero.

B (132:29)

What's that?

A (132:30)

Prison isn't society.

B (132:31)

Yeah.

A (132:32)

It's just not. That's not society. It's different. So, I mean, society.

B (132:37)

What does it matter what his threat level is if he's not gonna be out anyway?

A (132:41)

Exactly. If it's in a supermax, what does it matter? But they try to say that basically that if he's violent in prison, then that's more shit the state has to do. And that's more people that can be hurt. And they're considered society when it helps them kill somebody, but they're not considered society when they want medical care and things of that nature, then they're not considered members of society. It's very convenient how they use the prisoners here.

B (133:06)

Whatever benefits us monetarily, that's what we.

A (133:09)

Whatever works. Yeah. And also politically, you got to understand, too.

B (133:13)

Somebody's got to understand, I want to keep this job.

A (133:15)

Every four years, someone's got to go on TV and say, vote for me because I'll fry the more of them than the next guy will fry. Running for DA every four years. And that's what it is in Texas. Whoever kills more is the winner. So the exhibits for aggravating circumstances here. A psychiatric report, the one from when he was 15 years old. Yeah. Which seems a little crazy.

B (133:39)

It comes back to bite you in the ass.

A (133:42)

Yup. In the report, he admitted to several illegal actions and they were. So that's included. Things he did when he was like 13 years old in a group home is now evidence in his murder trial

B (133:54)

when that's supposed to be quote, unquote expunged or at least forgotten when you're 18.

A (134:00)

I would think so. And it wasn't a court ordered thing, so I would think it would be pretty. I guess if it wasn't a private psychiatric consultation, then it's not private. I suppose it can be subpoenaed. Yeah.

B (134:13)

I mean, at that point, what's it matter what he did back then? Because he's done way worse since.

A (134:18)

Hey, let's go post Vietnam with the beatings and the molestations and everything. I think that's good enough, right?

B (134:24)

I think we got pretty good idea who this guy is. Think.

A (134:28)

Yeah. I got a hint. I think we know this man. There's also a Veterans Administration report of a medical examination of Billy Wayne by a neuropsychiatrist performed in 1970. A Veterans Administration rating decision relating to him dated February 20, 1970, and a clinical narrative relating to him dated November 22, 1967. So that's like the documented stuff. Then they bring in Pam, they bring in Candy, they bring in molested girls. They bring in everybody who he's ever wronged to say what a monster he is. And now he has no remorse whatsoever. The defense, their mitigating circumstances are Vietnam service. He did join the Marines and volunteer and go to Vietnam. He has PTSD and bipolar disorder and he has these problems from fighting for his country. They have that. He had a troubled childhood. He spent his entire childhood in a state home. You know, don't kill this guy. Basically. He's had a shitty enough life is what their thing is.

B (135:31)

You didn't have much of a chance.

A (135:34)

No, no. Then they bring in Dr. Stephen Mark. Now, keep in mind this is. He's testifying for the defense here, okay? Defense. All right. This guy's a psychiatrist who said he examined Billy Wayne on more than one occasion and found that he was a violent and suicidal person due to the depression caused by his PTSD and bipolar disorder. All right. He stated that his psychiatric disorders and his unique history of separation from his mother and previous wives caused a total loss of control.

B (136:07)

Huh?

A (136:08)

Yeah. He also testifies that he suffered from two psychiatric disorders, PTSD and bipolar. And stated that he's prone to become potentially explosive and potentially aggressive and assaultive. And also suggested bipolar disorder might be by heredity. Which is all fine and dandy, but you're saying things that are reasons to not keep him around. Basically. Hey, he could explode at any time, spare his life.

B (136:37)

Yeah, but they've got to say that stuff to try to win favor.

A (136:41)

Yeah, well, it gets worse too, this guy. He also indicated that the illnesses made him more susceptible to severe mood swings, which resulted in days like the day of the murders when he loses control completely. He did indicate that he would be less likely to be violent if he took medication. He admitted that timely hospitalization and treatment with mood stabilizing drugs could have prevented the murders and that his psychiatric disorders could easily be controlled. They pointed to evidence presented by the state that implicated that apparently later on the attorneys and this expert disagreed over what the export and what he was gonna testify to. Apparently he's saying some shit on the stand that they didn't ask him to say, want him to say or hire him to say. He's just saying it. Yeah. According to the attorneys, they believed that this doctor would testify that he would not be a future danger, not that that he's super fucking dangerous. That's why they hired him.

B (137:42)

All right.

A (137:44)

He testified that he'd be less likely to commit them, but he said that recently developed antidepressants, this is 1990, would help block the symptoms from coming out. He testified that the medical treatment would probably control his mental illness and that there would be less likelihood of any criminal acts if he was adequately treated for both of his disorders. So there's that. The lawyer said they were surprised by the testimony and that they would not have called him as a witness if he had known what his testimony was going to be, essentially. Now they also bring in a Dr. Grigson. Okay, this is interesting. He testifies that he was suffering. That Billy Wayne was suffering from severe depression at the time of the murders and that it was very improbable that he would ever commit this type of offense again. It was just. He had a bad run of it Again. Again.

B (138:42)

Go lean in on a man who's murdered the police chief.

A (138:47)

It's a police sergeant and his parents.

B (138:50)

Parents kidnapped the guy's sister, tied up

A (138:54)

Mike, tied his Son up.

B (138:56)

The son and three girls.

A (138:58)

Three girls too. Disgusting. He said that Billy Wayne was more horrified by the pictures of the victims than anyone and that Billy Wayne had feelings of remort and guilt. Both psychiatrists agreed that Billy Wayne linked the loss of his wives with the loss of his mother, such that the divorce has triggered severe bouts of suicidal depression. Well, that might be true, but can't kill anybody still. He also termed that. This Dr. Grigson tries to talk about the 1964 psychiatric report where he is classified as having a sociopathic personality disturbance of a dissocial type. This Dr. Grigson says the term sociopath did not mean the same thing in 1964 as it does in 1990 and that the diagnosis of an individual as a sociopath could not be made until a person was 18 years old. He concluded that. That Billy Wayne was not a sociopath then and still not a sociopath.

B (139:58)

Is that right?

A (139:59)

He sure is. Something. He said that he does suffer from severe depression due to his wife divorcing him and that he does not represent a continuing threat to society and will not be involved in any future acts of violence because his crime was a, quote, passion type thing.

B (140:15)

Fair.

A (140:16)

Passion type thing.

B (140:17)

Passion.

A (140:19)

Wow. The jury has to consider whether he poses a future threat to society while being in prison for the rest of his life or if they should kill him.

B (140:29)

Passion thing. Yeah.

A (140:30)

Yeah. Now, the other mitigating evidence is he's a good guy. He's a good guy. They call about 20 witnesses who testified about his dedication to community service and coaching kids in football and the Waco jcs and that he was once in a book titled Outstanding Young Men of America. Wow. He also presents evidence that he was involved in various youth programs over the years, has a good relationship with his son, he gets along well with co workers. This is not a tough sway here. Yeah, but he's fun in the lunchroom. It's a tough one.

B (141:09)

Real locker room guy.

A (141:10)

Yeah. You know, he's like. That's what it is. A good locker room guy. Gotta have him in there.

B (141:13)

Aren't he working or.

A (141:14)

He's like a coach on the field, this guy. He joined the Marines and served in Vietnam and he served as a section leader in the US Army Reserves and was well respected in the reserves. So they also said, this is the final closing argument and sentencing from the defense. They said, remember, you're holding Bill Kobel's life in your hands and says, save this man's life. Save his life. The prosecution said, think of the lives he had. In his hands. Think of the Vica family. It's not about Bill Coble anymore. It's about justice for these people. Let's put him on death row.

B (141:58)

Let's do it, Tina.

A (141:59)

Let's do it. The way they said is so funny. Let's put him on death row. Come on. Come on. Everybody on three. Hey. Death row.

B (142:08)

Death row on three.

A (142:10)

Oh, my God. So the jury instructions are as such. Because that's important. You're instructed that when you deliberate on the questions posed in the special issues, you are to consider mitigating circumstances, if any, supported by the evidence presented. In both phases of the trial, whether presented by the state or the defendant, a mitigating circumstance may include, but is not limited to, any aspect of the defendant's character and record or circumstances of the crime which you believe could make a death sentence inappropriate in this case. If you find that there are any mitigating circumstances in this case, you must decide how much weight they deserve, if any, and therefore give effect and consideration to them. In assessing the defendant's personal culpability at the time you answer the special issue. If you determine when giving effect to the mitigating evidence, if any, that a life sentence, as reflected by a negative finding to the issue under consideration rather than the death sentence, is an appropriate response to the personal culpability of the defendant, a negative finding should be given to one of the special issues. They make it as hard to understand as a fucking. As a proposition on a voting ballot.

B (143:27)

Yeah, I don't.

A (143:28)

A yes means a no for this. What the fuck are you talking about? It's just complicated.

B (143:32)

But vote yes to vote against this.

A (143:35)

Yeah. It's not exactly that on this, but that's what it feels like. It's like that complicated. Like, what the fuck is beyond the superseding. What are you talking about? You'd have to probably. Yeah, he's a bad guy. Exactly. The jury takes about one hour of deliberation. Nice. So it seems like it would take me an hour just to dissect the instructions. I want to go home and go through it. Yeah. These people are like, fuck this shit. After one hour of deliberations, the jury says, you, sir, may off death penalty by lethal injection. So we all expected that on this one.

B (144:16)

Yeah. I don't know.

A (144:19)

This is wild shit, man. I mean, if they're. They're going to do it ever. This is. I don't know. So to the prosecutors, as he's being led away, he said, God help you. To the prosecutor, then, as he's Being led from the courtroom, he turned to Karen and said, thanks, babe.

B (144:39)

Thanks, babe.

A (144:41)

Thanks, babe. And she said, you're welcome. Which I like Karen, she's like, fuck you welcome, babe. You're welcome, Karen, they said, whose dramatic recreation of this whole day highlighted the nine day trial, said after the verdict she was very, very thankful. She said, he will never hurt anyone again. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end, but it will never be over for me. Okay, next up, there's an article here on Dr. Grigson. Remember Dr. Grigson?

B (145:12)

Vaguely.

A (145:13)

Who testified? He's the guy, the second guy who testified. Okay. Now this is an article called, quote, Jesus, Dr. Death introduces new death defying feat.

B (145:25)

What is that?

A (145:26)

All right, quote, it was like Babe Ruth laying down a sacrifice bunt. Jesse Helms posing for a Mapplethorpe photo. Ronald Reagan recalling everything in detail. You gotta remember, this is the 80s where people still remembered that Reagan was completely flat fucking senile and didn't know where he was for most of his presidency. And now people just call that Reagan? No, he didn't know where he was most of the time.

B (145:51)

What a guy.

A (145:52)

He had a half decent economy for like a year and a half and then had a huge crash and didn't know where he was for the rest of the fucking time. And fucking sold. Nevermind. Oversaw terrible codes. But anyway, after that, recalling everything in detail, I was thinking more of Iran Contra and all that, which was terrible. Anyway, they said it was Dr. Death in a Waco courtroom testifying for life. Dr. Death goes professionally as Dr. Grigson of Dallas. He's a psychiatrist for hire who's famous for convincing juries to condemn people to death. He's the guy who usually goes for the prosecution. Yeah, he switched. Grigson has appeared in 124 cases on behalf of prosecutors seeking a death penalty. That's a lot.

B (146:38)

Yeah.

A (146:39)

Wow. Generally he proves persuasive. But last week. Stop the press. As Gregson climbed into the witness stand in McClellan County District Court to tell a jury that it should spare the life of a triple murderer. So they go on. Before he was captured, he tied up his way. Okay. If that crime wasn't sufficient indictment, the jury heard from Kobel's two former ex wives who said he beat them. The trial also revealed that Kobel, a Vietnam veteran said to be suffering from ptsd, once assaulted a co worker with a hammer. We also got that one. A co worker. You're not even married to this fucking person. In the punishment phase of the trial, courthouse regulars rubbed their eyes as Grigson testified for Kobel. Grigson, whose minstrel song normally wows juries about the threat the defendant poses to his society. His minstrel song, oh, my God. Grinkson said Kobel posed no future threat to society because he's different as night and day from other Capitol murder defendants he's examined. He said, billy is not like the others. He has great remorse. He hangs his head. His guilt is overwhelming. And he won't look people in the eye because he's lying about being guilty.

B (147:49)

Right.

A (147:49)

That's why he won't look him in the eye.

B (147:50)

Generally, if you're lying, it's hard to look at people.

A (147:54)

And he also said that Kobel would be a model prisoner. Just perfect model, they said. Though no one was called to challenge Grigson's credibility, the prosecution could have found one by getting Randall Dale Adams on the phone. In spite of Grigson's best efforts, Adams is still around to testify. Adams was sentenced to die for a crime he did not commit, the murder of Dallas police officer in 1976. That's the thin Blue Line case. That's where he's from, the Earl Morris documentary, which, if you haven't seen it, it's like the beginning of that kind of documentary of like a well done, artistic. Not just interviewing static people, recreations done in an artistic way. Telling a story of wrong shit. It's the original. It streams all the time. It's streaming somewhere. Thin Blue Line. Anyway, many people have seen the movie since then. What most people don't realize is that Morris at first intended the documentary to be about Dr. Death. In Morris's interviews about Grigson, he came across Adams. He came to believe that Adams was innocent. So he didn't even start out making this documentary about that case. Adams tells in the movie how Grigson performed only the most cursory of examinations before coming to the conclusion that he would share with the jury that Adams was a sociopath that would murder again. The jury believed Grigson and condemned Adams to death. In March 89, a state appeals court overturned the conviction. Ironically, the man who testified against Adams and finally admitted to the murder, David Harris, now awaits execution for a different murder. So they blew that five different fucking ways. Filmmaker Morris believes that Adams was. The Adams case was a classic example of citizens caught up in a puzzle, wanting to find someone to blame, wanting to find someone to believe, even to the point of hiring someone to believe. They just wanted that to be solved. They didn't want to believe there was someone shooting Their cops in the street. That's it. In trial after trial in this country, the psychiatrists and experts are assembled, each to prove an assigned point. Grigson has been the heavy hitter for the prosecution for quite some time. In last week's trial, he acknowledged that out of 127 capital murder cases in which he testified, this was only the third time he'd appeared for the defense. Apparently, Dr. Death is not as convincing when he plays Dr. Mercy. On this case, the jury voted to execute Billy Wayne Coble. Some will say the sentence restores their faith in the system. Others will call the whole process an exercise in quibbling. Just how sick is this very sick man? As for Grigson, it's another day, another dollar. Probably back to the prosecution, where the odds are better. Win some, lose some, eh, Dr. Death? That's a fucking good article. Just eating that guy's shit now. So they send old Billy Wayne to death row. Yeah, he's on death row. His nickname on death row is Five Dollar Bill.

B (150:52)

Oh, what?

A (150:53)

That story came out, and they call him Five Dollar Bill. Now, we don't know if that's true or not. They said the origin of the nickname is not confirmed. But they think that's probably the type of thing that sticks with a guy. Because there's no other reason to call him Five Dollar Bill. His name's Bill, but. And Bill is.

B (151:12)

That's pretty good. Prisoners are great at nicknames.

A (151:17)

How much time do you have?

B (151:18)

They got all day.

A (151:19)

You sit there for 24 hours staring at a guy, you'll come up with a good nickname.

B (151:22)

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

A (151:23)

It's great. Now, he is a model prisoner, by the way.

B (151:28)

Unbelievable.

A (151:29)

One infraction of any kind.

B (151:31)

Unbelievable.

A (151:32)

On death row. Absolutely perfect. Doesn't talk back, doesn't do anything wrong. Goes with the program 100%.

B (151:39)

He's also an old man now.

A (151:42)

Model prisoner. Yeah, he's about. What is he like? Almost. He's in his early 40s when he gets sentenced, right. He's like 40. But as he goes on, he'll slow down a lot. So 2005 is an appeal. This is 15 years after the court case. He claims trial counsel did not adequately proceed. Prepare for the sentencing phase of the trial. Because they failed to interview and prepare witnesses who testified at the trial. They said the trial counsel failed to conduct any investigation of witnesses who might have provided alibis or who are eyewitnesses. Alibis for what?

B (152:20)

Right?

A (152:21)

Complete failure to investigate alibi witnesses. Fell below the standard of a reasonably competent attorney practicing under prevailing norms as well. What he said or what his new lawyer said. Coble concedes the trial counsel's professional investigator interviewed all the witnesses prior to their testimony. Furthermore, assuming counsel failed to fully prepare these witnesses, Coble only argues that these witnesses would have been more effective if they'd been better prepared, which does not come close to suggesting that, quote, but for counsel's error, the result of the proceeding would have been different, which is the standard for ineffective assistance. Kobel also alleges that the trial counsel failed to call favorable witnesses to testify. And the appeals court said complaints of uncalled witnesses are not favored because the presentation of testimonial evidence is a matter of trial strategy because of allegations of what witnesses would have testified is largely speculative. You don't know what they would have said. Yeah. After a football game, you can't said, well, if we would have passed on third and fourth, we would have won the game.

B (153:29)

We'd have won State knocked out my mind.

A (153:31)

You know it. Billy Wayne has not established what information these witnesses would have provided based on what can be gleaned from his briefs. These witnesses would only have presented testimony already provided by other witnesses that he's a decent guy. He also says his attorney didn't come see him enough.

B (153:50)

Oh, I missed him, I missed him.

A (153:52)

I'm so lonely. They only conducted two interviews at him while he was awaiting trial in jail. He said there's no support for this assertion in the record. A deputy of the sheriff's office who worked in the jail was responsible for keeping records said that attorney visitations are not recorded in the same manner as lay visitations. They said attorneys were simply required to sign a card that was subsequently destroyed at the end of the week. That's that. So they don't know how many times they've been there. The trial counsel, Hoagie Carrolls, said that it was not unusual for him to see a client in jail without signing in and that jail visitation records indicated no visits to Kobel would be inaccurate. So yeah, he said that he came whenever it was necessary to have a meeting. He also points out Dr. Marks affidavit in the state habeas hearing here that asserts that he discussed the case on at least six occasions here. Dr. Mark remarked that the attorney should not have been surprised by his testimony that Kobel might be a future danger because they're saying this guy that was testifying for me got up and said bad things. He argues that the presentation of this unfavorable evidence, expert testimony, negates the effectiveness of the Defense and the state concluded that at most there was a miscommunication concerning the content of his testimony or a miscomprehension of the substance of his testimony as it pertained to future dangerousness and mitigation. So they basically have two conflicting stories. And the court believed the lawyer that they expected Dr. Mark to testify favorably for their client, not that they submitted the expert despite being aware of the damaging nature of the testimony. Therefore, they concluded that the counsel's performance was not ineffective because this guy tricked him. Essentially. He went up and testified and the counsel said, if I knew that's what he was gonna say, I wouldn't have fucking put him up there. He just said that shit. So they're like, that's not the counsel's fault that this guy goes rogue. So that's. It's affirmed.

B (156:01)

Good.

A (156:02)

2007, another appeal, Fifth Circuit. The court found that the jury instructions in the original 1990 trial. See that why I give jury instructions at that point, that the special issues asking about deliberateness and future dangerousness had not been given. The jury had not given the jury a proper vehicle for considering his mitigating evidence. Under the Supreme Court precedent, juries must be able to give full effect to mitigating circumstances. The old Texas instructions, drafted before the 1991 legislative fix, that's the next year, were constitutionally deficient. This was the problem. They said he had mental illness, ptsd, bipolar, horrific childhood, Vietnam service. All of it double edged. It could make him dangerous or it could reduce his moral blameworthiness. The old instructions didn't let a jury navigate that. It went straight to the dangerousness. One of his attorneys said that he thinks that Billy Wayne should be entitled to a new sentencing hearing at the very least because of the mitigating factors that they claimed precluded him from being capable of forming an intent to kill. He said, quote, I strongly believe that Mr. Koebel is not guilty of premeditated capital murder. And that's what we were saying all along. Yeah. He was not in his right mind when this happened. He was suffering from a variety of mental illnesses, most notably post traumatic stress disorder from his time in Vietnam, and that he was not capable of formulating in his mind the specific intent for capital murder. But he had no moments of clarity over the 10 hours this went on.

B (157:41)

He had time to say so many things that told what he knew what he was doing.

A (157:45)

Yeah, it's crazy piece of shit. The fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans issues its ruling and they agree with the defense.

B (157:54)

Oh, my God.

A (157:55)

The death sentence is vacated. Not the conviction. The sentence is vacated. So they're gonna have to go back. The former prosecutor, Ralph Strother, who was a sitting judge by then, said. He called it an appalling, shocking, stunning and sickening decision. He said to overturn it. He said it was just clear that they didn't want to impose the death penalty in this case and accused the court of engaging in, quote, fanciful might have beens. Wow. He said, here you have this vermin who snuffed out three innocent lives like they were nothing more than a candle. And now he may get to live the rest of his natural life. They're not sending him to Barbados. He's still in a Texas maximum security prison. It's not fun, but okay. I get what you're saying. He's just mad about someone going back. If you're a lawyer and your shit gets dinged on appeal, you're just mad at someone going back and spray painting over your work, basically.

B (158:55)

But he's got a trip to Sandals, James, and it's not fair. It's not right.

A (158:58)

Come on. Yeah, he's going to Sandals. Every death row inmate who gets overturned, they all get a trip to Sandals. That's how it works. Ted, who is Robert Vica's brother, said, when someone brags about killing three people, how in the world can anybody take pity on him? It's not a matter of pity. That's the thing. It's a matter of legality. He said. This don't. This don't make sense. One cotton picking bit. That's what I'm. One cotton picking bit. This makes no sense. It gets better, by the way. His Texas isms get even better. This don't make sense. One cotton picking bit. I don't understand. We've been waiting 18 years and it's costing taxpayers all this for nothing when he should have been buzzard bait a long time ago. Buzzard bait? Buzzard bait and cotton picket in the same fucking sentence.

B (159:49)

Are people baiting buzzards? Are we using those for something?

A (159:53)

He should have been buzzard bait. Well, that's what I do, boy. I bait him.

B (159:57)

I'd put his spleen on a hook, throw it out there in the road.

A (160:02)

Just, you got to reel it in. Can't have no slack in your line now.

B (160:07)

Yeah, you got a real, real tight. That way when he hits it, you set that hook right there.

A (160:11)

You gotta set him. I'd say at least a 12 pound test on that bad boy, too. You don't wanna go lower than that it's a dense beak. 2008, there's a resentencing hearing. It's a resentencing trial. Essentially, it's that phase of the trial again. Prosecution trying to prove future dangerousness. They get all the information that they gave in the first trial. And now they also give photographs and cards found in his death row cell, including numerous pictures of scantily clad young women and girls described as young gymnasts and figure skaters. Are they above 18 years old? Can we have that?

B (160:50)

Is it a Sports Illustrated or is it private photos?

A (160:54)

That's what I mean. What is it?

B (160:56)

Yeah, is it Carrie Strug on a Wheaties box or is it.

A (160:59)

I don't think anybody's jerking off to that. But what was her name? The one in the late 90s who. No, God, no. The one in the late 90s who everybody liked. Katarina Vit or whatever. She was like, hot. She was on Arlis, an episode where she was like hot. I remember. It's the only reason why I remember. She was an episode of arlis I saw 30 years ago. So anyway. And romantic cards from a female pen pal. Okay, again, gentlemen, if you can't get laid, it is on you. This is an old man sitting in jail. He's molested people, beat women, killed the whole fucking family. Kidnapped them, did all. He still has women wanting to fuck

B (161:40)

him, perhaps beats off to Mary Lou

A (161:42)

Retton, possibly masturbating to carry Strugg, which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard.

B (161:48)

Insane.

A (161:49)

It's super weird.

B (161:50)

And he's got a girl.

A (161:53)

The prosecution calls Dr. Richard Koons. He was the same Austin psychiatrist who had testified in 1990 that he was a future danger. Eighteen years had passed and they said Kobel has been a model inmate with zero disciplinary reports. Dr. Coons returned to the witness stand and still said he would be a future danger in prison, Even though for 18 years he's done nothing.

B (162:15)

Still future.

A (162:18)

Listen, I'd love to drag this guy behind my car. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending him. But we have to have certain logic in our legal system for you to come out with now, when he's first convicted and say, I think he'll be a future danger in prison, that's fine. But once he's been in there for 18 years, is almost 60 years old and has done nothing wrong, I think that ship has fucking sailed. Right?

B (162:43)

I don't know if it's to rile him up and perhaps he'll flip it again.

A (162:49)

He'll go from not one infraction in 18 years. It is fascinating, not talking back, that

B (162:54)

they're not no women in there and he doesn't attack anybody.

A (162:58)

No. That's what it is. So I'm sorry, but you can't say that he's still. He's gonna, you know, he won't be able to hack it in prison when he is. That's just silly. His explanation for the spotless prison record is everyone on death row behaves because their conviction's on appeal and they don't want to hurt their case. Bullshit. How many cases have we done where that is the. The complete opposite. They're trying to escape, for Christ's sake.

B (163:24)

They got nothing to do.

A (163:25)

They're stabbing other people. Yeah. They're raping guards. They're doing all sorts of shit. At the hearing required to evaluate whether expert testimony is reliable, he was asked about his methodology. He said he relied on six personal factors. This doctor. History of violence, attitude toward violence, the crime itself, personality and general behavior, conscience, and where the person would be. He's developed this methodology himself over 20 to 30 years and could cite no books, articles or journals that validated this personally built system. I made it up. It's not peer reviewed at all. It's just me. They said he'd never gone back to check whether his prior predictions of future dangerousness had ever been accurate. He could not state his error rate at all. He agreed that different psychiatrists using the same methodology on the same facts could come to opposite conclusions. All right, so the defense said Dr. Koons admitted that his methodology could not be traced to a particular textbook or professional journal, nor could he cite even one authority or article that supported it. Koons has never gone back to check prison records and never seen whether his predictions are accurate and consequently has no idea of his own accuracy rate. Also, the prosecution brings in a guy who testifies that violence in Texas prisons is rampant and there's an underreporting of it. So even though he's that zero infractions, he still might be in there being violent. We just don't know.

B (165:02)

There's a couple of things he's done we don't know.

A (165:04)

We don't know it. The defense brings in a forensic psychologist who's got a lot actually. He's Dr. Mark Cunningham, a forensic psychologist. They said peer reviewed publications. He's an APA fellow, a Texas Psychology association award winner. He conducted a systematic violence risk assessment and concluded that Kobel fell in the lowest risk category for prison violence. His age is a big part of that, by the way, the fact that he's like almost 60 years old. His methodology here, he described Dr. Koons approach as tea leaf reading, basically pulling it directly out of his ass. The other guy, the guy who testifies to the prosecution, the guy who made up his own criteria, he said that's just blind guessing. Unless those factors have been demonstrated to be predictive of violence in prison. That's the problem with not knowing the literature. You have no idea whether the factors you're looking at are predictive of anything or not.

B (166:02)

Sure.

A (166:03)

He's never gone back to check to see if that's right. So during deliberations, the jury asked to review a couple of things. First of all, the psychiatric report from 1964, the military report from 1967, the photographs and cards found in his death row cell, and all of that. They did not ask to see Dr. Coons 1989 report.

B (166:30)

Oh, they don't wanna see it.

A (166:31)

Okay. They don't wanna see that. So they said that he's sitting there after deliberating for less than four hours. Seven man, five, woman. Jury comes back and says, you, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty again.

B (166:48)

You say you killed a cop.

A (166:49)

All right, that's what it came down to. Karen said, I'm just glad that it's over for my mother and father and brother. They're always with me. October 2010, more appeals.

B (167:01)

God damn it.

A (167:02)

And it's basically, Dr. Coons is a hack. That's the appeal.

B (167:05)

What's the problem?

A (167:06)

And the court calls. Actually, the Texas court of Criminal Appeals would later agree that admitting Coons testimony was error. Unreliable, idiosyncratic, essentially a gut feeling dressed up as medical credentials. Yeah, I made it up and called it junk science.

B (167:23)

Junk science.

A (167:24)

But ruled the error was harmless because there was enough. Enough other evidence. They said Dr. Coons testimony wasn't the thing that sent him to death row.

B (167:32)

You say you killed a cop.

A (167:34)

You say you killed a cop and you say you molest kids and you say you beat your wives. And you say you tortured a lady and stabbed her in the face.

B (167:41)

Killed all of them, the whole family.

A (167:43)

Okay, so that's how that goes. Now, Coons predictions. There's a big article here about Coons again, talking about what just a complete pile of douche this man is, and all of that kind of thing. Now. 2008, by the way, state habeas denied on this one. They acknowledged that Dr. Coons testimony was pile of shit, but it said it didn't matter. Essentially said, you can be fucked over as Long as they have other evidence. 20, 18, 21 claims, including the junk science issued, all denied by the district court and affirmed by the fifth Circuit. So Supreme Court, they file a clemency petition noting that the client was now 70 years old, in poor health, with a blemish free prison record for 30 years, and that executing. They said executing him would serve no valid purpose whatsoever at this point. And by the way, he's 70. Hey, Texas, how much have you spent on this guy so far in court? Shit, how much? Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money and the guy might out just, what, are you gonna kill an old man? He's gonna die anyway. It's pointless. This is why it's pointless. For 30 years, you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for this old fart sitting there. You know what I mean? So anyway, February 2019, Coble's original attorneys, they said had done, had admitted his guilt at trial without presenting an insanity defense. Over his objection, the state court dismissed this and the supreme court declines to hear it. So one week before his scheduled execution, he does an interview with that British journalist Susanna Reid that we brought up earlier here. So they said, they called him calm and philosophical and detached throughout, showing no genuine remorse and repeatedly framing the killings as something that, quote, happened or just like resulted from circumstances. He accepted factual guilt, but, you know, just does some flippant shit. Here's some excerpts from it here. When asked about the counts, if he counts the days and months and years, he said, about 29 years. That was what he said. And then he said, well, death is death. A person said one time and said, that's a horrible way of dying. And said, that's a horrible way of dying. As if, what is a good way? Can you tell me what a good way to die is? Because the longer you've lived, the easier it is to accept death. He talked about his childhood and said he missed out on love since his mother wasn't around ever. They said, do you regret what happened, what you did that day? Do you understand and feel the horror of what happened? He said, was you there? I just said, well, you're here, asshole, so something must have happened.

B (170:49)

I'm not. You're here here. I'm on that side of the glass, so obviously I wasn't there.

A (170:55)

Also, was you there?

B (170:56)

Yeah, I'm alive, so I probably wasn't there.

A (170:59)

Ain't there? Yeah, everybody else is dead, unless they were a kid or your ex wife. He said, you say something. If you wasn't there, what happened? You say, I Did I did. I did. How can you say something if he wasn't there?

B (171:11)

Oh boy.

A (171:12)

I don't know what that even means. He then said, I accepted. I did the emergency. Yes, yes, I've accepted that I'm here for those murders. Yes, he said. Then he said, they asked him if he feels bad, and he said, well, I feel bad about what I did and what the world's done. I feel bad that circumstances have got to a point where they shouldn't have gotten. I feel bad about killing the first person I killed in Vietnam. I see them vividly, just as clear as I did the day it happened. But I could never go back and change it.

B (171:42)

Okay.

A (171:43)

They said, did you love your wife Karen? And he said, it's amazing. He avoided answering love and deflected when asked if he was angry that she wanted to leave, he said, it's amazing. That was never said before, but it was always said afterwards that she wanted to leave so bad. He said, they asked him, how do you want to be remembered? What do you think of the afterlife? He said, I've never thought of it. It really doesn't matter to me personally, because if I'm dead, I'm with God and it's not going to concern me anymore. And then he talked about his son and his kids, basically. And they said, you, son is going to be at the execution. And he said, I want him to be there for himself, but to me, I'd really just as soon have nobody be there. You have to remember the person, not the body. And they said, if the Vica family expected an apology from you before you're executed. And then he cuts her off and says, okay, if you want me to give some type of like, rehearsed apology or something, I've already said I regret what happened. And I truly regret what happened. But I also truly regret what happens to a lot of things in life.

B (172:56)

There's no fixing this thing.

A (172:59)

No fix him. He's an asshole till the end. A complete fucking asshole. And like I said, I'd love to drag this guy behind my car. He's 100% worthy.

B (173:07)

Of course there is.

A (173:08)

He's a giant pile of shit that deserves anything he gets two days before the execution. The ACLU in a written piece said the coble execute. That Kobe will be executed on such discredited testimony is unconscionable. The example of his case already shows all who are willing to look why the death penalty is never justice and why it should be abolished based on that shitty psychology shit. And then they don't overturn it. February 28, 2019. Execution day.

B (173:39)

Here we go. Food.

A (173:41)

U.S. supreme, Texas Regular meal. Don't even know what it was. U.S. supreme Court posted on their website that the application for a stay of execution had been denied.

B (173:51)

Denied.

A (173:52)

You don't even get a phone call. They just posted on their website.

B (173:55)

We'll tweet it at you.

A (173:56)

That's all right. The British journalist Susanna Reid was outside the prison. She said his life hangs by a thread and that thread has now been cut. Very British. The avicka family's there. J.R. bobby's son, Uncle Ted is there. And three other family members entered as the prison as witnesses. A group of Waco police officers and veterans gathered outside to salute the family of Bobby Jr who's, you know, Christ, who's got to be 40 years old by now almost. He said, I think he deserves it. I think it's very important that he doesn't get to choose how he dies. Because my grandparents and my dad didn't get that. Yeah, he took that away from them. I hope he's going through that right now. The mental anguish of knowing he's about to die. He said, still, the way they do it is more humane than what he did to my family. It's not what he deserves, but it will be good to know that we got as much justice as allowed by the law. Now, will Karen attend?

B (174:56)

No.

A (174:58)

Yes, she will. She's coming. She's coming. She drove from San Antonio. She didn't go inside. She was in the second, like the anteroom out there in the support room, they call it, where the Waco cops were waiting for the family and all that. She said, it's not that I don't want to witness his death. It's just that I know what type of person he is and I think he would be happy to see me. I had no control over what happened that day in August of 89. But the one thing I can control is what happens to him in the last few minutes of his life. And that will be not seeing me.

B (175:28)

Great point.

A (175:30)

Great point. I like her. The Coble family. Gordon is there, I guess his wife because it's his daughter in law. Billy Wayne's daughter in law and grandson is there, too. Jesus, they're killing my dream.

B (175:47)

Get in the coffee.

A (175:48)

Someday it's my dream. Someday that my little grandson is gonna get to see me executed. That's my dream. Someday. Pop. Pop's dead. So he's transported from the unit in Livingston to Huntsville. It's about 40 miles here, gets in there. His last words are, fuck it, here we go. That'll be $5. Wow. Yes, sir, that will be $5. I love you, I love you, and I love you. To his family members, he said, mike, I love you. Where's Nelly at? I love you. That will be $5. Take care.

B (176:28)

That'll be $5.

A (176:29)

That's what he said.

B (176:30)

Whatever that means.

A (176:31)

It's his catchphrase. So as they inject him and as he closes his eyes, Gordon freaks out. Oh, we've never had this before. Gordon flips his shit and starts banging on the glass, screaming, no, no, this is bullshit. Okay? His daughter in law is also involved, and his grandson, Gordon's kid. They all get up, they begin, there's fists and kicking. Reporters are getting kicked a fucking ride. They're just freaking out in there, going crazy. A reporter who was in the room, Jasmine Caldwell, got kicked and punched.

B (177:08)

Wow.

A (177:10)

Officers removed all three from the witness room, meaning the son, the grandson and the daughter in law. And they were taken to Walker County Jail and charged with resisting arrest.

B (177:21)

Yeah.

A (177:22)

Billy Wayne was pronounced dead at 6:24. He was the oldest person executed by the state of Texas since 1982. And yeah, so there's that. Now the outburst that happened, the guards rushed in, removed Gordon and his son Dalton. They were both arrested on misdemeanor resisting and disorderly conduct charges. Gordon said, dalton, perfect. Like that's Patrick Swayze in Road House Roadhouse. Dalton, that's perfect. Gordon said he did not attack the glass or anyone before he was pulled out of the room. He said I was collapsing backward into my son's arms, basically. I didn't know he was going to catch me, but he did. We were headed to the floor and got attacked.

B (178:03)

Okay.

A (178:04)

He said they weren't. He said, they beat the living shit out of us.

B (178:09)

Good.

A (178:10)

They beat the living shit out of us. And my son, he doesn't have anything on his record, but now his job is in jeopardy, he missed a day of work, and his concealed handgun license might get revoked. And all because he caught his dad and supported me emotionally in one of the hardest times in our lives.

B (178:28)

Why'd you go if you can't, he can't handle it.

A (178:31)

I think you thought he could handle it. And then when you see someone being creepily gross. Yeah, it's the creepiest thing. Why would you want everyone to gather in a room, get a time? Imagine if a murderer did that. Imagine if a murderer said, I'm gonna kill you on this date and time, and they come get you and then they fed you and they brought you in a room and they had a bunch of people watch.

B (178:54)

They call your family and ask them, watch it. You're not gonna go to that.

A (178:58)

A prosecutor would say, that is the sickest person who's ever fucking lived who did that. And that's how we do it. That's weird. It'd be much more humane to just say, someday you'll get it. And then they go and hit him with one of those things they hit cattle with while they sleep in their cell one day. That would be the real one. Yeah. Boom, done. That's it.

B (179:16)

But you can't go to that.

A (179:20)

No. Well, you have to, though. If your father asked you to go and he's your father and you love him and he asked you to be there to support him, you can't say no. It's his last request ever. How do you say no to that if you love your father? Nobody would. That's why they always have family, those guys. They always do.

B (179:34)

But I couldn't go if I'm going to freak out.

A (179:37)

Gordon said he suffered a pinched nerve, injuries to his shoulder and back, and superficial injuries to his body. He said his son was also injured. He said, we were not there for any type of violence. My heart goes out to the Vica family. I've said that many, many, many times. And if I could give my life to bring back one of their loved ones, I would do it in a heartbeat. They didn't deserve what happened to them, and we didn't deserve what happened to us. Meaning getting the living shit beaten out of them. He's like, I didn't deserve that. I'm on their side now. We're victims, too Now, J.R. bobby, the son here, he said that, quote, and he didn't seem to be affected by the fact that he just killed your father. And he said, no, he didn't. Meaning Billy Wayne. He said, no, no, I mean. And I can't feel sorry for someone like that like Billy Wayne. The attorney who fought for Kobel for years, said, it's disappointing he was executed on the basis of junk science and perjury. Now, on the charges for Billy's family, for fucking Gordon and the son, J.R. who, by the way, is a defense attorney in Waco at this point and used to be a county prosecutor, said that. I didn't see the outburst. I don't know what happened, but I heard it. I feel like GW is also a victim in all this. He didn't ask for any of this. That had to be very emotional for him. I would hope the prosecutors down there would refuse the case and let him go on with his life.

B (180:58)

Oh, that's nice.

A (180:59)

It's obvious they're killing your father. The circumstances are pretty remote. And who beat him up? The cops.

B (181:07)

Oh, geez.

A (181:07)

The cops beat the shit out of him. Yeah. There was a shitload of Waco cops in the outside room waiting to salute the family for some reason. I mean, I get. Salute them. Salute the guy. Salute the coffin. Who are you? Salute the guy.

B (181:18)

Beat the shit out of this guy.

A (181:21)

Yeah. It's fucking crazy. So anyway, right after that, J.R. ends up becoming a McClellan county prosecutor.

B (181:29)

Really?

A (181:30)

Yep. He absolutely does. He said inspired in part by his father who was a police sergeant when he was killed. So they said he got his job because of his credentials, not his lineage.

B (181:42)

Kid was tied up.

A (181:45)

Yeah. He knows how victims feel. That's a. They're a nice family, these people, by the way. They really seem like decent people. Yeah. Karen is still alive, living in San Antonio. And they have renamed a highway for Bobby.

B (182:01)

That's nice.

A (182:01)

For Sergeant Vica here along the current. They said department for elected officials. This is a stretch of highway U.S. of U.S. highway 84 near app. They unveiled the name of it and it is these Police Sergeant Bobby Vicka Memorial Highway.

B (182:18)

What a wild place.

A (182:21)

There you go, everybody. That is some weird Texas story with justice and Texas justice and junk science and a horrible molesting asshole man who everybody would want to back over with their car. Like I said. But it's crazy. This is a crazy case.

B (182:37)

This is a place that just. Just precipitates some wild behavior.

A (182:43)

It's crazy shit. So, wow. Very quickly here at the end of the show, since we're running out of time here, definitely would like to say if you would like tickets to small town murder live shows or if you want merchandise or anything like that or just want to find out some new info. The website's got a complete redo also.

B (183:00)

Beautiful.

A (183:00)

If you just want to go poke around, it looks great. Head over to shut up and give me murder.com. get your tickets for live shows. Denver on May 2nd. You are next up. And one of the shows with tickets left here. And then that's this weekend as a matter of fact. And then Buffalo sold out. Sorry. Royal Oak, Michigan on May 30th as well. Very few tickets left for that. Like less than 50. So get them if you want them. Then we're Minneapolis or Milwaukee on the 18th of September. Minneapolis on September 19th. Dallas, San Jose Sacramento, Tarrytown and Boston. Get in there. Shutupandgivemerder.com, listen to crime and sports. Listen to your stupid opinions. Check those out. Get yourself also follow on social media, malltownmurder on Instagram, Smalltown pod on Facebook. Get yourself Patreon. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything we put out, including hundreds of back bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. Like between 300 and 400 of them. Tons of them. New ones every other week. One crime in sports and one small town murder. You can't beat it. It is the best value you're gonna get for podcasting. Any Patreon isn't even that cheap anymore. It's not. You can't get anything. You can't get half a subway sandwich for that. So for crime and sports this week. So, yeah, you get crime and sports and one small town murder every other week. This week. Small town murder. We're gonna do an Internet salad. Let's refer from all the. The whole world is a shit show on fire. We're gonna go through it and find the parts of it that are just fun to make fun of. None of the heavy stuff, none of the politics, none of that shit we're gonna make fun of. Just bullshit that needs to be made fun of. Everybody cleanse your palate with us. Let's put it that way. That is patreon.com crimeinsports plus you get all of our shows, all ad free, as well as a shout out right goddamn now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world who keep this show going. And honestly, we can't do it without. Hit me with them right now.

B (184:58)

This week's executive producers are Christy Miller, Addie Murphy. Thank you so much. Gary Howard in Scranton.

A (185:04)

Penny, Happy hours in poor bastard Gary. Yeah, Scranton's a shithole. Good luck.

B (185:09)

Happy hours in Splendora, Texas. One of these days, those guys are going to be in the same town. Talana Jensen can't make it to. I think it was Denver. That's a bummer. Thank you so much for donating anyway, Talena.

A (185:22)

Thank you.

B (185:22)

David Magruder, Sean Blank, and Christine Trowinski. Thank you all so much for being a part of this. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Janice Hill, Mandy with no last name, Hallie Smith, Joseph Monroe, Kim Frialden Hoven. She has two patrons. Make sure that you did that right for me, Kim, in case you only need one.

A (185:45)

We don't want to take more than you want to give. So that's no.

B (185:49)

Luke Ross. Kareem Moussalette, Rich Duffy. Robert Aguin. Is that a Q? Aquinaga Aquina. Not gonna work here anymore. Beth Gould. Brooks Jones. J. Buddy Jones. James Parker. Jacob Whitford. Christine Kristin o'. Shea. Rebecca Carrier. Or Carrier. Fred Woodward. Brian and Nicole Brody Boardman. Perry Holbrooke, Cassandra o'. Brien, Sydney Craig. Or is that Sydnet? It's probably Sydney. I don't know anybody named Sydnet. Miranda Cross. No. That is Coss. Kathy with no last name. Braden R. Chris Nett. Alexa Shoemake. Not. She only makes one maker.

A (186:37)

She only makes one shoe. Hey, listen, I'm not a shoemaker over here or anything.

B (186:42)

I only make.

A (186:43)

I made shoe. I make a one shoe.

B (186:45)

Taylor Zito. Probably Chuck's daughter or son. Who knows? Taylor's very. Trevor Gelart. Gellert. Gellert. Lizzie Angel Budoin. Bo Dewin. Kate Franchilla Fraschella. Raelyn Pointer. Chelsea Rodak. Lindsey Douglas. Danielle McGahan. Nicole with no last name. Kim Goodrich. Danielle G. Sarah Martin. Chadisha. Al Chadisha. Josh with no last name. Slitty with no last name. That's gross. Clay Berlin. Clay Berlin with no last name. Jenna Mooney. Andy Glosser. Laura with no last name. Nancy Mercer. Jesselyn Rekinger. Alison Would no last name. Jennifer would no last name. Christy Butler. Teresa Would no last name. Sean Schmitz. Alicia Collie. Frank with no last name. Brantley Daniels. Becky with no last name. Sarah Hurt. Kimberly Barnett. Adam Seal. Tim Baldwin. Kimberly Dyneline Dinelen. What is it? Dane Lane.

A (187:48)

I said he's on a roll. I was like, rooting. Yawn.

B (187:52)

Laura Abbott.

A (187:52)

Forest Run. You got this.

B (187:54)

Mme. Jen Walker. Andrea Sinsmeyer. Weiser. Kathy roeder. Jody Bosick. O.J. go. Justin. Lorraine with no last name. Thea with no last name. Ryan Hundley. Eric Stagg. Robin Brown. Samantha Ashby, Christina S. Cynthia Achapin Chapen. Sean with no last name. Laura Louise. Cassandra Bennett. Lauren Wilder. Yep, like Jean Mary Swain. Rich Wendt, like the guy from Cheers. Maja Maha. Roast Bird Rostberg. Bernadette with no last name. Fatal Baldadaldi. Fatal Balde. Mike with no last name. Elizabeth Hunter. Mike Shields. Jordan Summers. Melissa Prutzman. Prutzman. Douglas Daniels. Casey Daniels. Oh, that's probably two in the same family. Billy Young, Aaron Ridgeley. Heather Ovison. Lisa Berco. Thaddeus. Thaddeus. It's probably Thaddeus Pacheco. Carrie with no last name. Candace Page. Connor Hagcock. Hancock. Hank. Bree Brandt. Michael Shearer. Alexander. Holy fucking. Hola. Shoal.

A (189:03)

That's a crazy name. Alexander.

B (189:06)

It's probably Coach Kakalayov. Coach Tiffany Gonzalez. Dale. Cassius Casayas. Eric Hunt. Wrong. Solid. I don't know what that means. Rebecca Matanle. Sam Hemrick. Hamrick. Oh, it's Hemerick. Nicole Schrader. Finn Tozel.

A (189:28)

Moving on.

B (189:29)

Christine DiMarsky. DeMarski. Kelby. Kelby Cohen. Stephanie with no last name. Tanya with no last name. Not a Grim. Karen Scott Brown. Rich with no last name. Tyree Brunetti. Victoria with no last name. Reagan Ann Jarrick. Joe with no last name. Susie Action Doll. Thomas. Jackson Hardeman. Hannah Werner. Asia. Aja Larue. Asia. Right. Aja is Asia. Caleb McDonald.

A (189:57)

Silly man pronounced it Athena.

B (189:59)

And the Owl. Jerry Neschi. Jordan Schultz. Malcolm Allen. Luke M. Melissa. Melissa Coleman. Kristen Lewis, Ian B, John Henry. Probably not that one, right? But maybe.

A (190:11)

No, doubt it.

B (190:12)

D'. ETT really? Da etty. D, E, E T T E. Capital E, D ET Bullock. Bullock.

A (190:22)

Yeah, cool name.

B (190:22)

Anna Allen. Dolores Willoughby. Jen Myers. Ken with no last name. Michelle Arazaga. Arai Zaga. Bri with no last name. Shanna Gamble. Hannah Rose. Heidi Samsel. Courage. Courage. Cassina. That's fun. Sean. That's fun to say. Shauna Penrod. Danette K. Amy Rutgers. Chris Patterson. Like New Jersey. Melissa Gaddis. Angela Cassidy. Michelle Boulard. Boilard. And all of our patrons are the best.

A (190:52)

Thank you so much, everybody. Beautiful, fantastic. Bastards. Honestly, we appreciate all that you do for us every goddamn day. Thank you for what you do for us. And please don't snap and kill whole families and tie kids up. We can't, we cannot impart that enough onto you. Please don't do that. If you want to follow us, head over to the newly redone shutupandgivemerder.com. there's links to everything, social media, all that stuff. So come out and keep hanging out with us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, everybody. Listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi. Hello. Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy, too. And this is an ad. But not an ad for a product. This is an ad for dates. Yes, come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets, though, to your stupid opinions on 21 March. Salt Lake City, sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2. May 29, Buffalo, sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30. We have September 18, Milwaukee, September 19 Minneapolis. October 3 in Dallas. October 16 in San Jose. October 17 in Sacramento. November 13 in Tarrytown. November 14 in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other stm people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun. Make some new friends like crazy and make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and givemeimurder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

B (192:47)

See you on the road.

A (192:50)

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