The Murder Blame Game - Grafton, Vermont

Summary

Small Town Murder Podcast

Episode: The Murder Blame Game - Grafton, Vermont

Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman

Release Date: October 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, James and Jimmie dive into an especially bizarre and brutal double murder in the small, woodsy town of Grafton, Vermont. Both hosts highlight not only the horrific nature of the crime, but how the sheer stupidity of the suspects stands out even among the many cases they've covered. With their trademark blend of in-depth research, gallows humor, and relatable conversation, they break down the events from the backgrounds of the victims and perpetrators to the wild, bumbling investigation and equally absurd courtroom drama.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Grafton, Vermont Background

(05:14–10:17)

• James and Jimmie set the scene in Grafton, Vermont, a picturesque, tiny tourist town (pop. 587) with a median income near the US average but high housing costs.
• Grafton's history: From sheep and wool mills in the 1800s, devastating population loss during the Civil War, and rebirth via tourism and artisanal cheese ("Grafton Cheese Company").
• The town’s quirky features:
  • The Grafton Inn (est. 1801, one of the oldest in the U.S.).
  • A "fairy house festival," mostly attended by adults ("just a lot of 40 year old women wearing wings" – James, 09:42).
• Jimmie jokes about the stereotype of winter sports towns, "It's all like a little weird like douche consortium that they get together." (08:47)

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2. Victims, Perpetrators, and Social Setting

(10:17–16:55)

• Gregg Enos, 33, local working-class guy, prior small-time criminal record (DUIs, possession, "rural goofball shit").
• Colleen Davis, 33, single mom of three (one son in a wheelchair), living in extreme poverty in a dilapidated trailer park described as "five dilapidated trailers set in a meadow." (14:48)
• The trailer park was recently the site of a heroin bust — underscoring the tough circumstances Davis faced.
• Enos and Davis were friends who often drove around together (the hosts speculate about the ambiguous relationship).

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3. The Day of the Murders: The 'Party' in the Woods

(16:55–23:56)

• On June 24, 2002, Gregg and Colleen pick up two hitchhikers:
  • Charles “Poncho” Sherman: 43, white, extensive criminal record, living with parents, runs a makeshift mechanic shop.
  • Michael Perez: 20, black, from Brooklyn, no prior record, had been homeless and recently beaten in Vermont by "Pac Man" Williams.
• The four go to Bellows Falls to buy beer and weed, then head into the Molly Beatty State Forest—"country afternoon" (James, 16:42).
• They plan to help get the hitchhikers' truck unstuck from mud, celebrate with drinks and weed in an abandoned stone conservation camp (party spot for local teens).

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4. Crime Scene Discovery: Odd and Disturbing Details

(23:56–26:14)

• Next day, a local scavenging for cans stumbles onto the grisly scene:
  • Colleen, "bent at the waist through the small window" between the cab and truck bed, upper torso and head resting on a tire in the truck bed—violently bloody. (23:34–23:56)
  • Gregg, upside down under the steering wheel—“most unnatural positions” (James, 24:17).
• Evidence of a struggle, signs of attempted arson:
  • A tree limb with burnt red cloth (later determined to have Enos's blood) and another burnt cloth in gas tank—“someone tried to set the truck on fire. It didn’t work.” (25:39)
  • Both had fought back; autopsy reveals Gregg stabbed 21 times and severe blunt force trauma; Colleen beaten to death, likely by rocks and sticks. (29:27)

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5. The Investigation: Idiocy and Breakthroughs

(26:14–34:24)

• Police rapidly get tips: Two mismatched hitchhikers seen the previous day—“40-year-old white guy and 20-year-old black guy… only know of one of those pairings in town." (27:12)
• A logger had pulled out Sherman and Perez's stuck SUV for payment of a shotgun—later used as evidence. (30:26)
• In an astonishingly dumb twist, Sherman and Perez show up with Sherman’s family at the active crime scene, both visibly injured (Sherman with scratches, limping, “shaking violently,” complaining about his back). (34:24)
  • "Have we ever had two bigger dipshits?" (James, 37:29)
  • Notable Quote: “What kind of a dipshit kills people, then shows up at the crime scene while it's full of cops?...You have to be the biggest fucking moron I know.” — James, 37:29
• Both are quickly detained as suspects.
• Forensics finds the burnt red cloth is from a Fat Albert t-shirt ("Hey hey hey!" — Jimmie, 36:56), which Perez was seen wearing.

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6. Confessions and the Blame Game: Stories Fall Apart

(38:39–55:56)

• Perez and Sherman both attempt to blame the other, offering ever-changing and conflicting accounts.
  • Perez, after requesting a staged re-arrest so Sherman won’t know he’s cooperating, cycles through multiple versions:
    • First, denies all knowledge, then blames Sherman for both murders, then says he was forced into participating but only pretended to hit Colleen. (40:59–48:51)
    • He leads police to dumped evidence: Clothes (weighted with rocks) in a river, the murder weapon stashed elsewhere.
• Both say the fight started when Greg Enos caught Perez and Colleen having sex on a picnic table. Perez insists it was consensual, Sherman claims it wasn’t, both say violence spiraled from there—with racial slurs escalating the situation.
• Notable Quote: “In both, everybody's version, even Perez's version, Perez was having some kind of sexual whatever first with her.” — James, 53:56

Memorable/farcical details:

• Both claim (in coordinated fashion) they only pretended to hit Colleen when ordered—"like a wrestling move." (48:55, 54:47)
• Both describe the other as the true monster—Sherman: “Mike Perez is a sex freak. That’s what did it.” (55:31)
• The old classic: “Trust me. I would have left. I didn't do it." (49:31)

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7. Courtroom Carnival: Trials, Pleas, and Sentencing

(55:56–76:00)

• Both are charged with aiding in aggravated murder—Vermont law makes both responsible regardless of who delivered the fatal blow.
  • “Doesn't matter who inflicted the fatal blows.” — James, 56:23
• At arraignment, family members from both sides get into a shouting match in the courthouse. (56:33–57:41)
• Legal complications: Local prosecutor and judge both consider recusing themselves due to personal connections—a classic small-town “everybody knows everybody.” (61:11–64:13)
• Perez goes to trial, is found guilty after 18 hours’ deliberation based on multiple confessions and witness testimony ("he beat the dude and stabbed the bitch 57 times"—Perez boasting, 66:02), and gets life without parole.

Sherman's Plea:

• His wife tries to claim marital privilege; ultimately, he pleads guilty to two counts of aiding second-degree murder in a deal to escape a harsher sentence. (68:06–68:50)

• He addresses the courtroom, weeping and apologetic, saying “I'm a victim too”—which earns him derision from the victims’ families and the hosts alike. (72:37)

  • Notable Quote: “He said, I'm a victim too.” — James, 72:37

• Judge, unmoved by their stories:

  • "I have no doubts you minimized your role." (73:58)
  • Sherman gets 20 years to life (eligible for parole in 2024).

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8. Aftermath and Appeals

(74:08–76:00)

• Both men appeal—citing provocation, bias, and shoddy legal counsel—but lose those appeals.
• Sherman denied parole in 2024: “The parole people called him a, quote, violent, dangerous and high risk individual and said, get the fuck back in your cell, asshole. Good. And sent him back.” — James, 75:04

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We've had a lot of dumb murderers. This might be the dumbest way to get caught for a murder that anybody's ever done in 642 episodes.” — James, 01:59
• “This trailer ‘park’… was the scene of a drug bust, a big heroin drug bust… out of five trailers, one of them’s the fucking smack house.” — James, 15:07
• “A 43 year old and a 20 year old have nothing to talk about. How many 20 year olds friends do you have? Zero.” — James, 18:13
• “They showed up to discover the bodies, and instead… there’s 100 cops there. Whoops.” — James, 47:44
• “They like to return to crime scenes. Not while it’s being processed, you fucking idiots. What are you doing?” — James, 37:29
• “He’s poor and unreliable. He's getting held onto.” — James, 60:09
• “The dumbest stories ever. I'm gonna make shit up that almost makes it sound worse.” — James, 53:20

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Town background & cheese festival: 05:14–10:17
• Victims & murderers profiles: 10:17–16:55
• Events leading up to murders: 16:55–23:56
• Crime scene discovery: 23:56–26:14
• Investigation & suspects’ stupidity: 26:14–34:24
• Blame game/confessions: 38:39–55:56
• Trials, pleas & sentencing: 55:56–76:00
• Aftermath & appeals: 74:08–76:00

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Episode Takeaways

• Grafton, Vermont is a town with historic charm and contemporary struggles, but its tranquility was shattered by senseless, impulsive violence.
• The murder case combines depressing poverty, substance abuse, interpersonal chaos, and baffling stupidity—emphasized comedically but respectfully by both hosts.
• The investigation was fast—thanks in large part to local gossip and the utter cluelessness of the perpetrators—resulting in both men spending their lives behind bars.
• The hosts highlight the tragedy's ripple effects for the families, the limits of criminal legal strategies, and the dark humor inherent in true crime's stranger-than-fiction details.

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For the full experience, including James and Jimmie's banter (“four heads are better than two,” “bathed in the Bud,” etc.), and their biting but empathetic analysis, listen to the full episode wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

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[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

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[Jeff Bridges]

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[Dana]

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[James Petragallo]

Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yay and choo choo.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I am Jimmy Whisman.

[James Petragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another wild, absolutely wild edition of Small Town Murder Express. We've had a lot of dumb murderers. This might be the dumbest way to get caught for a murder that anybody's ever done in 642 episodes. That says a lot. So this is a special kind of dumb we're dealing with this week. It's crazy. It's a wild story. We'll get into it. First of all, shutupandgivemerder.com get your tickets for live shows now. Live shows actually in theaters. We are the only one you can. There's two left. One's completely sold out. One has like a dozen tickets left in Philly. So if you'd like to go To Philly. There's a few tickets left. You can get them. I'm not sure if there's pairs or what it is, but check it out. Get in there. Or you can get tickets to the virtual live show.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petragallo]

Doesn't matter where you are on this planet of Earth, if you have Internet, you can get the virtual live show. Just like a regular live show, except in your living room. You can drink your own booze and do whatever you want. We're gonna have costumes on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You could dress like an asshole too.

[James Petragallo]

That's right. October 30th. It's a Thursday right before Halloween. It's available for two weeks after that as well too. You can buy it, you can watch it 100 times. Do whatever you want in that two week period. Dress up with us, Hang out with us. It's a good time. So do that. Shut upandgivemerder.com also definitely listen to Crime in Sports, our other show. And you'd stupid opinions. Our other other show. Get those. They're hilarious. You wanna hear those? Then get yourself patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports just like the name of that show you should be listening to. That is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get a giant back catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard immediately upon subscription for binging purposes. Then you get new ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder and you get it all, everybody. This week, what you're gonna get for crime and sports, we're gonna talk about Deshaun Watson and all the accusations against him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They are numerous.

[James Petragallo]

There's a pile of them, like more than a dozen. So it's a lot. And then for Small Town Murder, it's Internet salad time. Back by popular demand, we're gonna go across the Internet and see what the hell is going on in the world. This is the only time we get to catch up. Cause we're so busy with this whole thing. Anything but politics.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What's John Stamos up to?

[James Petragallo]

That's right.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's talk about it.

[James Petragallo]

No politics. That's the only rule of that. But we will talk about that comedy festival in Saudi Arabia. Cause I've never been asked to talk about something more than that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's unbelievable.

[James Petragallo]

We asked a lot about that. That said. So that's shut upandgivemerder.com. no, that's the website. Patreon.com crimeinsports. That's where you want to go and you Also get a shout out at the end of the show. And you get all three shows that we do. Small Town, Murder, Crime and Sports. And your stupid opinions. All ad free as well. Ad free. Ad free. It's the best we can do. It's all we got to give. So that said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs here. I think it's time. And let's all shout. Shut up. Give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we? We're going up to Vermont this week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What a lovely place.

[James Petragallo]

A lovely woodsy kind of place here. This is Grafton, Vermont. This is kind of a touristy spot a little bit in this particular area. It's in southern Vermont. About two and a half hours to Boston. So nice drive for a weekend away from Boston or something like that. About two hours to Stowe, Vermont, which is our last episode. That was episode 598, our last Vermont episode. That was Cookies Solve Murders, which was actually true. Cookies solved a murder. Uh, let's see. This is in Windom county, area code 802. Population of this town, the permanent population, not very much. 587. Little tiny place here. Median household income, this is of the residents, not of the people vacationing is $68,125, which is right around the national average within $1,000. Median home cost. Little pricey here, though. I believe that 395,800 bucks for houses here. And a lot of them are bigger and have more land and things like that, too. So that makes sense. A little bit of history here. In the early 1800s, sheep raising became popular.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. And a bunch of wool mills sprang up all along the rivers here and everything. Absolutely. And soapstone was quarried near Bear Mountain.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Petragallo]

Soapstone, by the way, is like a stone with a heavy talc content. And they make like countertops and bricks and things like that. Fireplace, bricks and stuff like that with it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's not soap at all.

[James Petragallo]

Not soap at all. They use the stone part. It's very malleable. Apparently the Grafton Inn is still here. Now, this used to be the old Tavern Inn. It was founded in 1801.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

This place. It remains one of the oldest continually operating hotels in the United States. And it's the Grafton Inn. This town, before the Civil war had about 1500 people. And what happened back then is regiments were from areas. So if a particular regiment got caught in bad action, all the townsmen were all the town's able bodied younger men were all dead. That's how it would work and that's what happened here. Basically all the town's men that went to the Civil War were all wiped out at once. So it was huge. Local cemeteries in the village hold a lot of tombstones from the casualties of the battle of Gettysburg. They lost tons at Gettysburg, these people. After the war, the community continued to decline in population because there was nobody with any sperm to impregnate anybody. Because science, the soapstone quarry was depleted and closed in the late 1800s. Around the time of the Great Depression, the town's population was less than 400. And they brought it back. They brought it back with like tourism and weekender people and stuff like that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Otherwise this town popping in to bang.

[James Petragallo]

The locals, that's it. Just to stick one in the local, get that population up a little bit. Wow. Reviews of this town. Here's five stars. Beautiful town. Yeah, they make you feel welcome. Community garden and trails for hiking, skiing and snowmobiling. A child's paradise. To all those kids who love skiing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. All those 8 year olds on snowmobiles.

[James Petragallo]

Huge, huge population. I've always.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Those things are fucking heavy, man.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. I was a kid, I picture skiing as like an adult activity, you know what I mean? Adults go off and ski, it's expensive, there's like booze involved.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They dress alike.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Clothes and equipment. It's all like a little weird like douche consortium that they get together. I'm not sure. And finally four stars. Grafton is a small town with a tight knit community. There is little in terms of jobs here besides the inn.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

So you can work at the inn probably seasonally too. And that's. Yeah, that's the thing too. In the winter, I don't know how much. Well, in the winter you get your seasonal. I bet it's all seasons because you get the snow things. In the summertime you get hiking. So I think you probably get both ways things to do in this town. Okay, now there is the, the obviously the Grafton Inn to go there. The foundation which helped restore the village and purchase the old tavern and turned it into that also established an artisanal cheese business, the Grafton Cheese Company and built a world class cross country skiing center at Grafton Ponds. So there's that. Then there is the fairy house festival. This fairy house festival here, just look from the pictures was just a lot of 40 year old women wearing wings. That's what it was. Walking around the woods and they're eating Cheese? No, that's a separate thing. Follow a Vermont woodland path sprinkled with charming fairy houses for a magical experience of the natural world.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Walk the forested fairy house trail. Make your own fairy houses. Enjoy face painting, music, bubbles, crafts, food, local vendors. It's like what you take an eight year old to. An eight year old girl would enjoy this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And there's no eight year olds at.

[James Petragallo]

This from what I saw. It was all like adult women. It was interesting, but yeah. They build small structures out of natural materials and built an enchanted village through the woods and opening a portal to the incredible world around us. It's all made up. You're just walking through the woods, pretending there's ferries. I don't know what you're doing. That said, let's talk about some murder. Let's do this here. Okay, we got to go back a little bit to 2002. So here we go. Cell phones, texting. No social media. And your cell phones all flip. And you have to do every letter is three clicks on a button to text. So that's where we are here. Let's talk about a guy, Greg enos. Greg with three GS altogether. G, R, E, G, G. Two at the back. Oh, yeah, back end. Two GS double G, Enos. E, N, O, S. He's born July 24, 1968. He was born in Bridgeport, Connecticut. His parents are Kenneth and Elaine. And he went to school in Vermont, though. So he was born in Connecticut, but it seems like he grew up in Vermont. He went to Newfane High School and Leland High School as well. In Townshend, which we did an episode on. He worked a lot around in lumber things here. He did. He worked at the Allard Lumber Company and the CS Wholesale Grocers in Brattleboro, which is where he lived at the time. In 2002, he liked going to flea markets and buying old stuff. That was his jam.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It is fun to do back there because you can find really old shit right here by your house. There is some old shit sitting in an antique shop and they don't want anything for it.

[James Petragallo]

No. Sometimes they know what they're less now with the Internet because they can sell it online, too. And they know. But, yeah, there's old shit in my house. When I moved in, I was like, yeah, it's cool. Yeah, you'll find anything now. Now, Enos has had some problems in his life here. He's had convictions for drunken driving, unlawful mischief, furnishing alcohol to minors, and possession of marijuana. Kind of a party, which I Mean, these are all like rural. These are. He's not like a master criminal. These are like super trooper crimes. If you've seen that, they're gonna, you know, pull him over. He's got a bag of weed on him. This is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's just a goofball.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, rural goofball shit. Exactly. Now, he lives with a woman in Brattleboro on Elliot Street. Believe her name is Sandra. Okay. Now, one of his former attorneys, who's a public defender in town, which tells you a lot here, said that Enos, quote, lived on the edge of society. I mean, that's what I mean. He's not a master criminal or anything like that. You know, he works and he pays his rent, but he also, you know, drinks and smokes weed and does whatever. So, I mean, like 30% of the country, basically. Like everybody I've ever known, essentially. All of my friends.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Real fringe guy.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, all of my friends, essentially. Now, he has a friend named Colleen Davis. She's the same age, but 33. At this point, we don't know what their relationship is. He lives with a woman, but he's out, like driving around, hanging out with this Colleen Davis, who's the same age. Now, I don't know how your relationship is, but I live with a woman that I'm married to. And if I was just out hanging out with some woman, driving around with her, she wouldn't take too kindly to it, probably. So I'm not sure what the relationship is. A little bit about Colleen here, she's had a bit of a tough time. Colleen Davis, she has three kids. She's divorced, three kids. Jesse, Rusty and Amanda, in that order of age. And she moved to Vermont for. From Maine in 2001. Her ex husband still lives in Maine, and she moved to Vermont as of 2002. Here, Greg's living in Brattleboro. Colleen's living in Athens, Vermont, which is right in the same area. Now, they're friends and they hang out. And she, at this point in 2002, her boys are both teenagers. One of them's in a wheelchair. Oh, boy. And she's got like a 10 year old daughter at the same time. She lives with these three kids in a trailer. Oh, boy. At the Tenney Mobile Home park, which is described thusly in the Rutland newspaper, quote, a collection of five dilapidated trailers set in a meadow. That's not a trailer park.

[Jimmy Whisman]

5.

[James Petragallo]

5. It's like that one member driving to Massachusetts to go to that dispensary. And I said, look over there on the side of the Road. And there's like seven trailers lined up. And they're horrifying. Half of them look like the tornado just hit them. That's where she lives.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Does not make a park.

[James Petragallo]

No. And this trailer quote, park earlier in 2002, was the scene of a drug bust, a big heroin drug bust.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petragallo]

A couple named Jay and Lynette Howell were arrested and charged with drug trafficking. So out of five trailers, one of them's the fucking smack house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So, yeah, she's not living in a terrific place. And she's got a son that needs help.

[James Petragallo]

She's got a son that needs help, three kids. She's divorced. She's a single mom. She's having some problems. So. On Monday, June 24, 2002, Greg and Colleen are out for a drive together. Don't know what they're doing. I have no idea. Hopefully making money to get out of that trailer. That's all I can imagine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's brainstorming how to do it.

[James Petragallo]

Something. As they're driving along, they pick up two hitchhikers, which is smart in 2002. This isn't 1978. This is 2002.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, neither of them had a good idea of how to get out of this park. Maybe they gotta get four heads is better.

[James Petragallo]

That's what I mean. Hey, those guys look pretty smart, and they pull over.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You guys got any ideas?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Anybody? Yeah. No. Hop in. We're. We're brainstorming. You want to join the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If you don't have a car, let's talk about how we can get one.

[James Petragallo]

So they pick up two men, two hitchhiking men here. They drive them to Bellows Falls to buy beer, and then they return to a remote spot in the woods to help one of the men. The whole point of them hitchhiking is their truck got stuck in mud on a logging trail. So they said, hey, will you help me get my truck out? And Greg said, sure. And they said, well, we'll buy beer. And he said, great. Sounds awesome.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's drink beer and get a truck out of the mud. That's a fun afternoon.

[James Petragallo]

That's a good time. It's a good country afternoon. So they went and got beer and apparently stopped to get some weed too. They got weed and beer, and they're going out to the woods. Woods, weed, beer. Sounds like a fun day. All right, small challenge.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's go.

[James Petragallo]

The people they pick up are Charles Sherman, who does not go by Charles Sherman. He goes by his nickname of Poncho.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Poncho.

[James Petragallo]

Poncho, obviously.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You get there from Charles, obviously.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. 40 year old fat white guy, poncho. Yeah, yeah. He's born July 1959. So he's about 43 at this time. He has an extensive criminal record. Been in prison on and off since his teenage years. Just a complete fucking disaster. All sorts of burglary, Escape at one point from jail. He's so many charges this guy's had. I mean he's an interesting fella here now he has lived in Bellows Falls for about the last 18 years. He's unemployed at this point. He normally works as a mechanic and he lives with his parents and kind of runs a makeshift mechanic shop out of his parents garage now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God.

[James Petragallo]

So unemployed is the best way to put that. He has a wife named Donna and a small son. Okay, okay. And he's with his partner. This is the odd couples of everything going on. This guy living with a chick, hanging out with another chick. This one a 43 year old white guy's hanging out with a guy who's 20 years old.

[Rubrik Announcer]

Perfect.

[James Petragallo]

A 43 year old and a 20 year old have nothing to talk about. How many 20 year old friends do you have? Zero. Zero is the answer to that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm no for that.

[James Petragallo]

Yep, got none. He's hanging out with a guy named Michael Perez who's born in 1982. He's 20 now. Perez has an interesting backstory. He's from Brooklyn, New York.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Actual Brooklyn, not like Brooklyn, New Hampshire or something? Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Petragallo]

He moved to Bellows Falls very recently. Within the last couple months here. Before moving to Vermont, he lived in a series of homeless shelters.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Mikey.

[James Petragallo]

Mikey's having a hard time. He has no folks, Mike. He has no criminal record though either yet. Well, we'll talk about that. Now, right after he moved here, he was beaten with a baseball bat.

[Jimmy Whisman]

By who?

[James Petragallo]

About the head and face. By a guy named Patrick. Pac Man Williams?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Anybody who goes by Pac man is dangerous, by the way. That's a fact. Don't fuck with guys named Pac Man. If everyone calls him Pac man, that's a problem.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's tough.

[James Petragallo]

So yeah, Williams apparently attacked Perez. Pac man attacked Perez at his home after Perez called Williams girlfriend a name. Oh, now this was in an argument over the said girlfriend smoking weed. I don't know who was pro her smoking weed and who was anti her smoking weed.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Or maybe just anti her smoking that much weed.

[James Petragallo]

Either way, the girlfriend was 13 and both these guys were 20. So that I don't care for. So it's good Someone got beaten about the head and face with a bat, but we're not sure who. Now, a woman from the area named Deborah Doty said her son was Perez's best friend and had known him for years. I don't know how he knew him in New York or what, but she said Perez was a meek and mild person who wouldn't even defend himself when he was assaulted with a baseball bat.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, it's hard to.

[James Petragallo]

That's what I was going to say. I don't think that was a choice. I think that's why the guy got a bat, so he couldn't defend himself.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So a lot of people keep those by their bed because that's the thing.

[James Petragallo]

It's hard to defend yourself against that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's not easy.

[James Petragallo]

Your body isn't set up for the defenses. Now, Sherman, somehow, Pancho somehow befriended Perez here, Even though they're 23 years apart in age, and let Perez live with him and his family in an apartment in Bellows Falls. So he lives with his parents. A 43 year old in an apartment with his parents invited a 20 year old to come join the mix. This is a wacky thing. Imagine you lived in. No, they're gonna go. No one else is coming here. Yeah. And Perez always called Sherman either Dad or Paul, which is also weird, obviously.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Short for Poncho.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So Tuesday, that was Monday. They picked up. They're supposed to do all that now. Tuesday, July 25th, the next day, or June 25th, 2002, the next day. There is someone scavenging for returnable bottles and cans. Yeah. In the woods.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is a very downtrodden neighborhood, man.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, that's what I mean. There's people that have money in Grafton, and then there's a lot of people who don't have money in the surrounding rounds about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Now this guy's collecting bottles and cans at this area in the woods because it's a known party spot. So teenagers come out there, they leave cases of beer and all that kind of shit. So it's a good place to find cans. This is the Molly Beatty State Forest. And this particular area of it is situated at the end of a narrow, winding dirt road that has some kind of small houses, trailers, deer campsite. Not a. Not a very affluent area, put it that way. Now, the forest includes an old Civilian Conservation Corps camp.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cool.

[James Petragallo]

Which is basically two. Like this stone building out in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the fucking woods. And that's a great place. Great place for teenagers to party.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck, yes.

[James Petragallo]

We would Drive up to the Appalachian Trail head when I was a kid by me. And they have these like bunk houses there that have like, you know, cot bunk things on them. And we'd go there and smoke weed because it was a good time. You could do it in the rain or snow. It was good. That's what this is. It's mainly teenage drinking parties. People go there to fuck and do drugs and things like that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

The house includes a. It's a stone house with a covered breezeway in the middle and an attached stone shed. It was built in the 1930s and it's kind of in a overgrown clearing in the middle of a dense forest is the best way to put it. So now this guy, while trying to collect cans, comes across a 1986 light blue Nissan pickup truck which was parked in the Molly Beatty State Forest right by this. And he can't ignore what he sees. By the pickup truck is not a can or a bottle. Unfortunately for him. He finds dead bodies in this pickup truck. Yes. This is weird as shit. First of all, he sees Colleen Davis. She is partially inside the cab of the truck and not in the way you would think.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Front side out.

[James Petragallo]

No, not like hanging out the window of the patch. Half her body's out the small rear window.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God.

[James Petragallo]

The one you open up for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Little thing that's hard to get out of.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, absolutely. Half her body is stuffed up through there. She's bent at the waist through the small window. Her upper torso and head are resting on a tire in the open. And that's in the pickup bed in the back part of the truck. So that's not good. She's bloody and not looking good. So he looks inside the truck because. Don't do that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You've seen enough.

[James Petragallo]

Any cans in there? Yeah, I understand there's dead people, but there might be a six pack of fucking RC in there I can grab. Then he looks inside the car and he sees Greg Enos body. His body is upside down on the driver's side of the truck, under the steering wheel, legs up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck?

[James Petragallo]

So this is the most. The oddest way to find two bodies you can ever imagine. They're the most unnatural positions.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's harder to do that than sit them in the seat.

[James Petragallo]

That's what I mean. They're upside down. And then she is pulled through a fucking tiny window. None of it makes sense. It's really weird. Now this is about 10 miles from where Colleen Davis lives. So it's pretty close to her house, actually. So this Guy freaks out. It's about 12:30pm he's out for a noon stroll for some bottles and cans and comes across this. He calls the police, obviously, I would hope. And the police arrive and they say there's two different kinds of weapons used in the murders. That's what they find right away. And they say it's likely there was two attackers, based on the way this all looks, and went down. Because there's two people too, it makes it easier. They also find a long tree limb with a piece of red cloth wrapped around its end, resting on the back of Colleen's skull, up against her skull in the back of the pickup truck. The cloth was burnt, by the way. The red cloth at the end was burnt and it contained Greg Enos's blood. This red cloth, real weird. This is a really strange scene. Another piece of burnt red cloth, also containing Enos blood, was found protruding from the truck's gas tank.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, so someone tried to set the fucking truck on fire. It didn't work. There's evidence at the scene that obviously that there was fire went out and didn't burn. So now they look around and they say that from the looks of everything, it was quote, probable that Enos and Davis put up a fight and struggled with their killers. Although they couldn't tell specifically. They said it's hard to believe they didn't put up some sort of resistance.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

So basically, whoever did this, we're looking for more than one person and possibly somebody with some injuries.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Some injuries, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So that's good to know. Now the police say just while this is going on, it's such a small area that tips start coming in while they're on the scene already. And people say that they saw two hitchhikers the day before on Hinkley Brook Road in Grafton, which leads here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

So they're like, we saw two hitchhikers. I mean, that's how small of a town it is. If there was two guys on the side of the road, maybe it was them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're just as much of a suspect as the person that saw them at that point. Right?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They say this is several grafted residents said they saw a white man who's in his 40s looking and a younger black man wearing a red T shirt walking toward Bellows Falls on Monday. Now, they said the police were almost sure they knew the identities of the hitchhikers. Again, small area, right. How many 40 year old guys hang out with how many 40 year old white guys hang out with 20 year old black Guys in the area. Probably only these two.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So how many hitchhikers are identifiable though? That's amazing.

[James Petragallo]

That's in a small town, you know, that's those two guys, right? Any other description, it probably would have been harder. Two 30 year old white guys. You'd go, I don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's so many.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. With the older white guy and the younger black guy. We only know of one of those pairings in town, one of those Bert and Ernie pairings. So they said that they thought they knew that and they were trying to locate the hitchhikers and also the person, another person who picked them up hitchhiking along Route 121, which goes to Bellows Falls. When the press asked the police, are these two hitchhikers suspects? They said, quote, everyone is a suspect at this point. The classic line, I'm my own suspect. You could be a suspect. Sergeant Jones could be a suspect. Anybody's a suspect.

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[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Head, beaten to death.

[James Petragallo]

Her head beaten in and then dragged through a truck window.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know if someone was attacking and she was trying to escape through the truck window. That's the thing. They're trying to figure it out. They do find A two pound rock at the murder scene as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

This is inside the camp, the conservatory camp. And it has human blood on it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I bet somebody was beaten with that.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Blunt force trauma. Two pound rock with blood on it. Yeah. Colleen Davis died from a fractured skull. They think that could have come from a rock or a heavy stick, they said the heavy stick being the one leaning against her head. So like she's definitely hit with this, we think. Now, in a weird thing here, a logger. They talk to a logger, a nearby logger guy who cuts down trees and pulls them down and shit. He said he pulled a vehicle out of a muddy ditch in the state forest Monday morning and received a shotgun as payment from the two men.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They like. They actually gave it to him or they turned it out.

[James Petragallo]

They gave it to him? No, no, they gave it. They didn't have any cash, so they said, we can pay you in a shotgun. Which again, try that shit in Queens, you know what I mean? I'll pay you. They'll be like, money, motherfucker, I want money from you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm not putting my fingerprints on.

[James Petragallo]

Hell no. No fucking way. So the logger said that the two men's green Ford Explorer was stuck in a muddy four wheeler trail in the forest up near the stone shelter, which is where the bodies were found. He said that he had pulled the Explorer out sometime between 7:30 and 8:30am he said he drove his skidder past the stone shelter where Enos truck was found several hours later because it's Enos own truck. At the time, however, he didn't see a pickup truck, so they weren't there yet. Lager said that, you know, he's happy to talk to anybody about it. He said the shotgun he gave to his boss in exchange for the $80 that the guys were supposed to pay for the tower. Yeah. He said one of the men gave his boss his phone number so he could redeem the gun later when he had cash. So now you're using tow trucks like a pawn shop? Yeah. You're in hock for this fucking tow job now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

There's a news bulletin that police are warning that these killings could be random in nature. And they say residents should lock their doors. Don't let strangers in. Hunker down, basically. We don't know. They're crazy people out there. Nobody in the town of Grafton gives a singular solitary fuck about this, by the way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're not worried at all?

[James Petragallo]

Nope. Well, listen to why this is some cocky shit here. The newspaper, they go and Talk to people at a local cafe in Grafton. And they were just talking about how hot it was. It's 90 degrees out. It sucks. They didn't believe. They said that they were concerned about murders, but, quote, they didn't believe that someone from Grafton had been murdered. So it's fine. They didn't care. Literally, they're like, well, it's not a local person that was murdered, so I mean, they're local, but not super local to. Right here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, it's imported, so we don't care.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's imported from four miles away. Much different. Wow. So they said that, quote, one guy said, the people told me not to be. Or the police told me not to be afraid. They don't know who it is. He said in the afternoon, in other words, don't be afraid. We don't know those people who were murdered. So you're fine. They couldn't possibly murder you. They murdered those people. Okay. Now, people who knew about. They found out that this is all going. While the police are on the scene. This spreads like wildfire. The newspapers are talking to people in cafes, they're talking to cops. They get the logger involved. All while they're processing the crime scene.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

Neighbors of Colleen Davis at the trailer park said that she was a good woman and a good mother and they were very sad about it. Davis's ex husband they got ahold of to make sure it wasn't him that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Did this over in Maine.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he's been in Maine the whole time. He went to work the day before. Impossible for him to get back. He said he was shocked by the news and was coming from Maine to see his kids.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. What about Greg's wife, who's got to be furious that he's out there running around with some young lady.

[James Petragallo]

He's not married and has no kids. He just lives with us.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, got it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Now, the neighbors at the time were caring for the three kids, for Colleen's kids, including a boy in a wheelchair. The neighbors said that the children were very upset with the death of their mother. No shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Probably.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Okay. Now the police are still on the scene, mind you. Okay. Still processing. It's a long day of processing the scene out in the 90 degree heat and some more people show up. In addition to loggers and witnesses and coffee shop patrons, two people show up. Well, actually, four people show up. It is Michael Perez, Charles Poncho, Sherman, Sherman's wife Donna and their young son all show up to the crime scene.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Sherman. Sherman is described as a Short, stocky man dressed in a dirty T shirt and camouflage pants and walking with a heavy limp and complaining loudly of pain in his back. That's what he shows up. Oh, my back hurts. Oh, Jesus. Boy, what's happening?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sciatica.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, boy. I'll tell you what, this is wild. Why are you here? How about that? Perez was dressed in dark sweatpants and a black World Wrestling Federation T shirt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petragallo]

Excellent. These guys are all class. And Sherman was wearing, by the way, his dirty T shirt was a University of Massachusetts T shirt, which I'm sure he's an alumni of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a big booster.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah, by the way, Sherman has scratches all on his forehead that look like fingernail marks, which. Not great for him. No. Now they just show up and they're like, we'd love to talk to you guys, especially because we heard you guys were hitchhiking yesterday.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

In this area.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Also that you're here.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. They said they came to get their pickup truck, which was stuck in the mud nearby. So apparently they got pulled out by that tow truck, then got stuck again. That's what happened to them yesterday.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You gotta have four wheel drive, man.

[James Petragallo]

Get out of here. Yeah, can you drag us out of the mud when you drag us? Please don't just leave us in another spot of mud. So they said they were there to get their truck. And Perez stated initially that he and Sherman had walked home after their truck got stuck. And then later on, he said, oh, I mean, we caught a ride to Bellows Falls in a dark brown or black pickup. I don't remember. Yeah, he said when he left the forest, he was driven by his female friend with Perez and the woman's son in the back seat. Okay. Now, Sherman, after a minute of this talking to the cops, gets pissed off and says, I'm leaving. Let's go. I'm leaving. All of us were all leaving. And when they pulled away, they said he was shaking violently. Pancho Sherman, your truck got stuck. What are you shaking violently? Why are you being so weird? So, obviously, they're the top suspects. They're like, yeah, keep an eye on those two as they drive away. So they follow them, and after a minute, they end up arresting them. They go arrest them. Not for murder quite yet, but just to hold on to them for suspicion of some things. Here they found out that both pieces of cloth, the red cloth around the stick and in the gas tank, were both part of a red Fat Albert T shirt, the old Bill Cosby character. Hey, hey, hey.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petragallo]

That Albert that. By the Way Michael Perez had been seen wearing on Monday. Oh, a red fat. Which? A red Fat Albert T shirt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, it sticks out.

[James Petragallo]

It sticks out. Yeah. He might as well be wearing like a fucking chiquita, like one of those fruit baskets on his head like Carmen Miranda. You're going to get noticed in that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Guy'S name that had the beanie cap pulled down to his chin. I forget his name. He was the fun one.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah. Is that Mushmouth? I think it was Mushmouth. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can't get anything out through that hat. That's the problem.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think that's why they called him.

[James Petragallo]

I think so. So at first, neither of them will talk. First of all, let's say this. Have we ever had two bigger dipshits? Let's say they did this. What kind of a dipshit kills people, then shows up at the crime scene where the bodies are while it's full of cops? Just chalk. Crime scene investigators. You have to be the biggest fucking moron I know. They like to return to crime scenes. Not while it's being processed, you fucking idiots. What are you doing? Have we ever had anyone this dumb in the history of small town murder? Wow. So neither one of them will talk. At first, they both say they don't want to talk. Then Perez contacts the Vermont State Police detectives and offers to talk to them about what happened if they pretend to arrest him. He's already in jail. Oh, okay, he's sitting in jail. But to pretend to arrest him in jail again and take him, like to be processed again, that way Sherman wouldn't know that he's telling on him. He said, I don't want Pancho to know. So if you arrest me and then I have to go with you, then it looks better than if you just pick me up and it looks like I'm telling.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Then it could look like y' all beat it out of me.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So he was quote, unquote, arrested at the Rockingham State Police Barracks in New Hampshire for some reason and. Okay, now both men have different stories, completely different stories of what happened.

[Jimmy Whisman]

One implicating the other.

[James Petragallo]

You could say that. Weird, right? Now, here's what we know. All four people been drinking a bunch of beer that night, and we believe smoking weed. Although later on tests will come back and there's no weed in Mike and Greg and fucking Colleen's system. But that's what we are sure, that weed was involved. Someone had weed in the mix. Now they apparently, we know that they offered Greg and Colleen offered these two A ride to Bellows Falls, where Sherman owns a mechanic shop. But they stopped at a gas station on the Red Light Hill area. In the Red Light Hill area, where they purchased some beer and cigarettes. And Jen Sherman also made a stop to buy some weed. The four discussed a place to hang out and party and decided, hey, that part of the state forest is a good place to party. And I'll help you get the truck out. So we'll party. We'll get the truck out. We'll make a night of it. Basically, when they arrived there, they drank. Drank beer and smoked weed for a minute. And then Enos and Sherman went off into the woods to try to talk about the truck and left Perez and Colleen Davis sitting on a picnic table. Right, that we know. Okay, now we know also, when they got back, there was. They were in the middle of some sort of sexual act.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who? Colleen and Greg.

[James Petragallo]

Colleen and Greg? No, Colleen and Mike and Perez, the 20 year old. Now, we can surmise it's probably not voluntary based on the fact that it's in a picnic table and her boyfriend's coming right back. So let's just say that now Perez says it was consensual sex, and Sherman says he came back and Perez was raping her. Okay, these are the two stories. Let's get into it. Now, Perez gives five different interviews, and they're all different. So this is kind of a mess here. In his first two interviews, he denied knowing anything about the two murders. Anything. Anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

He said, quote, I didn't kill those people. I did no harm, physical harm toward those people. And he said, what Charles Sherman did up there, I'm telling you truthfully, I wasn't gonna tell you. He said, I'm trying to remember everything about that day. So they were telling him, I don't think you're telling us the whole truth. And he said, I don't know. That's all I got. Then later on that night, he gives another statement. He said, yeah, we caught a ride in the pickup truck. I didn't murder anybody, though. He said, after we caught a ride, Sherman Poncho got drunk and went to sleep. He said that on that day, Sherman was wearing the red shirt, not him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

Even though everybody saw him in it. He said Sherman was wearing the red shirt, and then he wore a white shirt. And he denied that he and Sherman had a knife in their truck that day, despite testimony from several people saying they saw a knife in the truck that day. Several days later, he tells police a different story. Oh, now he knows everything. He said that Sherman killed both victims. He went crazy. I seen it. Yeah. He said. He recounted this story. He said he and Sherman were very drunk. They were joyriding in the state forest. Let's get drunk and ride around in the woods is a weird thing to do. Very rural. And then they got stuck in the mud. They started walking back to Bellows Falls and caught a ride with Greg and Colleen. After stopping to get beer and snacks, they all decided to return to the state forest to party. At some point, Enos and Sherman left the campsite to look at the stuck truck. And Perez claims that he had consensual sex with Colleen Davis on the picnic.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Table while they were gone.

[James Petragallo]

While they were gone, he said. In the middle of this, Greg and Pancho returned, which angered Greg Ennis.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Because I guess they're seeing each other. Okay. So that's. He said that pissed him off. He said that Perez said he calmed things down somehow. I don't know how you calm someone down from that diplomacy. Yeah. Wow. This guy, he'd really be like, an ambassador or some sort of, like, hostage negotiator or something. Because, wow. If you could talk someone down for being pissed about fucking their girlfriend at the picnic table while you're checking out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The truck, raping their girlfriend.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Well, he's saying it's. I'm just going by his story right now. He comes back and sees that he gets a little mad, but then he's like, oh, I guess it's all fine. And they all started drinking again.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I see it your way now.

[James Petragallo]

Have a beer. Okay, fine. Yeah. You know what? I am getting a little too up in arms about this shit. So he said when Enos and Davis, Greg and Colleen got ready to leave, he said Greg called him the N word.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

And this angered not Perez, but Pancho Sherman.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. He'll stand for no racism around.

[James Petragallo]

He will not have. Well, actually, he said, quote, that's my N word. You don't call him that. That's literally what he said. That's what Perez said. He said. So this was not some sort of justice he was standing up for. He goes, I call him the N word. You don't. Which is crazy. Wow. This. So apparently, Sherman and Greg started arguing at that point. Poncho and Greg are arguing. Perez said he was frozen. Didn't know what to do at that point. Just frozen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Okay. Now, according to Perez, Sherman then grabbed a stick out of Perez's hands. He said he was holding the big stick. Just, you know, leaning on it. Yeah. He said he grabbed it and hit Enos with it. Smack Greg in the head with it. Sherman then tried to move Enos body and asked Perez for help. So then as this was going on, Greg came to. Greg Ennis came to and ran. Sprang up from his feet and ran to his truck. So Sherman chased him and stabbed him, he said. And Perez said, I didn't even know Sherman had a knife. So he said. Eventually, they said that all of this happened. The truck was too bloody to drive. There's blood all over the fucking thing. So Sherman asked Perez to help him move Enos body into the truck. So Sherman told. He said Sherman told Colleen Davis to get into the truck, which she did, but she tried to climb out the back window to escape. And that's when Sherman hit her with a stick and a beer bottle. This is while Perez left and went inside the camp building there while he's beating her to death. I don't want to see this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I can't watch this.

[James Petragallo]

He said. Later on, Sherman came into the camp building, threw his shirt and keys into the fire. What your keys into the fire would do. That's not real bright. And told Perez to wrap his shirt around the tree limb and light it. So Sherman lit the shirt, stuck it into the truck, and then they left the scene thinking the truck would burn and explode. Okay, that's the story here. Wow. I mean, that's. That's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The fire did nothing.

[James Petragallo]

It literally went right out. Yeah, you could still tell it was a red shirt. I mean, it went right out. Clothes are fire retardant. That's the thing. They're not made to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they don't just go up.

[James Petragallo]

There's a reason you don't burst into flames every time you pass a fire, because your clothes are not meant to do that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Except they were fleece onesies we put on very small children.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Those go up.

[James Petragallo]

Anybody with fleece on in high school, they were getting a lighter to their shit, and it would go poof. Like a big cotton ball poof. And they wouldn't even know what happened. They'd look around like, what was that? They could smell something, but they didn't know what happened. So anyway, then Perez says, I'll even lead you to evidence. I'll take you there. So he said, I know where we discarded our shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Perez said this.

[James Petragallo]

Perez said it. I'll show you everything. So they go, great. Get in the car. So en route to this with Perez in the backseat, he repeats portion of his story. He reiterated that Pancho Sherman became angry when Greg Enist used a racial slur and stated by saying, that's my N word, not yours. Wow, that is wild. Perez then indicated he was scared Sherman would kill him, even though he's done nothing but be nice to him and take him into his home. Now he's afraid he'll kill him. He told police that he and Sherman filled their clothes and shoes with rocks and threw them into the river so they'd sink. He also said that they had planned to go to the state forest the following day, which they did. Why they came back there was to remove the tree limb and pretend to discover the bodies.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petragallo]

They showed up to discover the bodies, and instead.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's already been discovered.

[James Petragallo]

There's 100 cops there. Whoops.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Take it easy, Columbus. We already got this.

[James Petragallo]

Fucking idiot. Someone already found the Mississippi. We got this. Holy shit. Calm down, desoto. We would have found it eventually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is unbelievable.

[James Petragallo]

So this is crazy. The dumbest two people ever. He also repeated that Sherman was very drunk that day and falling down due to an intoxicated state. But still sober enough to murder, apparently.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck?

[James Petragallo]

He told them of some of their clothing and where the burnt clothing was. Took them to the fire, took them to the river where they dumped their shit and all that several days later. He then says that now he has a different story. He says that Sherman told him. Perez to hit Colleen Davis with a tree limb rather than Sherman coming over when she was trying to get out the back window. She told. He told him to. Sherman told Perez to. He said. But he pretended to just. He said he didn't. He said he was hitting the truck bed, but not actually like a wrestling. Like when a guy's laying on the ground, you hit him with a chair, you really hit the ring. Most of the time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's wearing the right shirt for this.

[James Petragallo]

It's perfect. Yeah. So that's what he said he did. He said that first he attacked Enos with a tree limb, then a knife. After that, he said Sherman forced him to hit Colleen Davis as she laid there stunned in Enos truck after Sherman had already hit her hard in the head. He said he only pretended to hit her and he hit the bed of the pickup truck. And that he said that if he had helped kill Enos and Davis, he would have fled, not stayed in Vermont. Because, you know, I'm telling the truth, because I'm still here. He said, quote, I would have left. Trust me, I would have. Yeah, I trust you. Sounds great. You're very trustworthy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You may or may not have raped a woman. I'm not trusting you for anything.

[James Petragallo]

Don't ever say trust me in a police interrogation. They don't trust you. That's why you're in the chair. Cause they don't trust you. If they trusted you that you wouldn't be sitting there. Trust me. I would have left. I didn't know. I know I didn't do it. I know I'm going to jail. If I have to get 30, 40, 50 years for lying to you all, not telling you that day, I'll do 50, 60 years for that, you know, because that's a crime. I did. I did not murder them. I'm not going to jail for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'll go to jail for lying, but not that. Yeah, go ahead and book me on that.

[James Petragallo]

I'll do anything for jail, but I won't do that. So at one point, he then says that Sherman made him carry Greg Enos body. And put it back into the pickup truck, where then they tried to burn the two bodies, and it never caught fire. He said they left the state forest on Foot. Carrying two 12 packs of Budweiser, all class. Covered in blood and blood and Budweiser. Then they stopped to wash the blood off Sherman's body with beer. They used beer to cleanse him. They christened him in beer at this point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God, this blood's for you.

[James Petragallo]

My God. None of the stories mention a rock, by the way. The rock never comes into play.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So what the fuck?

[James Petragallo]

So then they go to Sherman, and they go, well, he's singing, and he's saying this and this and this. And Sherman goes, well, I better tell you my side of it then.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, we heard how you were bathed in the bud.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, bathed in the butt of the lamb. And we said, that's no good. So he, after speaking with a public defender, decided to talk. Which is the opposite of what normally happens. You talk to a lawyer. They tell you to shut the fuck up. This lawyer said, this guy's putting you in. That's the facts unless you refute them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You better hurry up.

[James Petragallo]

So he didn't want to talk. But after his wife and son came to the barracks and spoke with him, he decided to give a statement. He said that he blamed the murders on Perez. Saying that he was a, quote, sex fiend. He's a fiend, this guy. And that his behavior started the fights that led to the murder. That's what he said. He said that Mr. Perez had gone to. He said hours before this all happened. Perez had gone to pick up the knife that he had sharpened, that Perez was aware that he had the knife in his possession, meaning Sherman. It's a six or seven inch folding knife with a wooden handle.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a big fucking folding knife.

[James Petragallo]

It's a nasty one. That's nasty. You don't want to get stabbed 21 times with that. He said later, after Enos and Davis had picked them up, gave them a ride, that's when Perez got in a fight with Enos. And that's when Perez told Sherman, give me the knife. Give me the knife. And Sherman said, okay, and handed it over. That's what he said later. He said that he saw. He said this all started with he saw Perez sexually assaulting Colleen Davis. He said this was after, though, not before. That didn't start it. He got in a fight with Enos. Besides this. He said that he walked up and saw Perez raping her, basically, and told Sherman, quote, have some too, like he had a six foot sub out there or some shit to join in. Hey, join the rape. So he said Sherman said he dropped his pants and quote, feigned that Colleen was giving him oral sex at that point. Just pretended it like Cinemax porn. You know what I mean? The head's going back and forth, but that's what he said. Horseshit. The two, the worst lies. They're the dumbest two murderers who've ever existed.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're giving a story that is impossible to have happened.

[James Petragallo]

Impossible and both impossible and highly self incriminating at the same time. The dumbest stories ever. I'm gonna make shit up. That almost makes it sound worse.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's pretty obvious what happened, right?

[James Petragallo]

It seems like it, yeah. Seems like they went to look at the truck. Perez was raping Colleen. They came out, a fight started. Sherman fucking whacked this guy because that's his son, basically his N word. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what it seems like. That's what happened, so. Or Sherman was right. I don't even know. So in both, everybody's version, even Perez's version, Perez was having some kind of sexual whatever first with her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right?

[James Petragallo]

So, yeah, he said that. Long story short, Perez attacked Enos unprovoked, first hitting him with a stick, then asking for a knife. Then Perez started sexually assaulting Davis repeatedly and she began screaming. Perez then tried to force Colleen to perform oral sex on Pancho Sherman. But the police also said Sherman's account was, quote, fragmented. He said the next thing Sherman remembers is Perez hitting Davis in the head with a piece of wood. Okay. He also instructed, he said, that when Perez told him to smack Colleen Davis with a large wooden stick, he pretended to do so, hitting the truck and made it look like they both had the exact same story of faking to hit her and hitting the truck. Someone had to hit her because her fucking skull is bashed in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, one of them, she's dead from it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah. He said while this is happening, Colleen was alive and begging for mercy. So cold blooded, these two are cold. He also recalled, quote, trying to stuff the body back in the truck and couldn't get it in there. Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cause that window's too fucking small.

[James Petragallo]

It's too small. This is crazy. He said that Perez hit him twice on the back. Sherman says too hit him twice in the back, threatened to rape members of his family and kill them. I'll go home and rape your mom. We'll go to your apartment, I'll rape your mom in front of you and kill you and your dad. That's what he said. So when the police asked Sherman what prompted the violence, he said, quote, Sherman, he said that Mike Perez is a sex freak. That's what did it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He just snapped.

[James Petragallo]

He had to have some. Yeah. After the murders, they hitchhiked to Bellows Falls, where they were eventually picked up by one of Sherman's friends. They hid some beer in Grafton Village along with the knife, which police found thanks to Perez's directions. So they have the murder weapon now too. So they're under arrest. Obviously now they're both being held on a million dollar bond at this point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they don't have that.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, they don't. They definitely don't have that. Shit for sure. They don't know who did it. They're both blaming each other and they're both just as plausible. So they're both charged with aiding in the commission of an aggravated murder. So if you charge them both with that, it doesn't matter who did it. Basically, they can both be found guilty of aiding each other, essentially. So that's how that works. It doesn't matter who inflicted the fatal blows.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. And very much like the old robbery of a gas station thing, if somebody dies in the commission of it, whatever. The point is, you both said you were there where two people are dead.

[James Petragallo]

That's the problem.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Whoever doesn't matter.

[James Petragallo]

Whether you were looking at the bubble yum or you were at the counter holding the gun, it doesn't fucking matter. You came in with that intent and that's exactly what it is. So that's how this went. Now, during their arraignments, Family and friends of Sherman and Perez and Greg Enos were all at the courthouse together having a huge verbal. Shouting, cursing arguments in the courtroom. Boy, oh boy, that is messy. Swearing at each other, screaming. They had to. Like the bailiffs had to come in and calm everybody down. Yeah, this is a lot. Now, the lawyer for Sherman, during his arraignment said that essentially that the weight of everything is on Perez. He said the proof is lacking in several respects. They don't know who killed anyone. It's a fundamental weakness in the state's case, not a sign of strength. They don't know what happened. Sure. He said his client and his client's wife only had a monthly income of $600, which sounds like social services type shit. That's like welfare.

[Jimmy Whisman]

300 a piece.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's not good.

[Jeff Bridges]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Dana]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dana.

[Dana]

Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly. @t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[James Petragallo]

Nice.

[Dana]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Jeff Bridges]

T Mobile is the best place to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on iPhone with eligible traded in any condition.

[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for lunch?

[Dana]

Dude, my work here is done.

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[James Petragallo]

One of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a SOFI personal Loan. A SOFI personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's s o f I.com P-O-W-E-R loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 and there was no way that he could raise a million and a half dollar bond which is what they're asking for. They cited Sherman's extensive criminal records including a conviction for escape, numerous violations of parole and probation, and five failures to appear in court on motor vehicle violations. Like he doesn't show up when it's a fucking 10 miles over the limit. You think he's gonna show up for this?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a smidge unreliable and he doesn't have money. So let's keep him.

[James Petragallo]

He's poor and unreliable. He's getting held onto. So they also went to their home and they seized couch covers and a knife sheath from the Sherman apartment there. Apparently they also searched Sherman's auto repair garage, which is his parents fucking garage, the front of which is on the first floor of a four story building on Rockingham Street. According to the application, that's where they seized six couch and cushion covers. And they said that Perez and Sherman returned to the business after the killings and that's why they're there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petragallo]

They said Sherman allegedly put his pants on the couch before he and Perez later weighted their pants and shoes with rocks and threw them into the river. So they're hoping there's some blood on there. They're seeking blood evidence transferred so they can get some DNA out of this. By the way, the county attorney might recuse himself from this case.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why is there a conflict of interest here?

[James Petragallo]

Because Michael Perez is both a victim in another crime being beaten to shit with a baseball bat.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, right.

[James Petragallo]

So he's the victim in a crime that this prosecutor is prosecuting and he's a client here. He can't be a victim and a fucking and somebody I'm prosecuting at the same time. It's a conflict of interest obviously. So yeah, he said that the office was discussing whether or not to remove itself from this cause he's prosecuting the aggravated assault with a deadly weapon against Pac Man Williams there. So they said that this Williams is charged with beating Michael Perez with a baseball bat on May 17th. So it's like less than fucking two months before, a month before the murder. Yeah, so that's what's going on here. The guy is also charged with. There's another guy involved also who's charged with aiding the commission of a felony for helping this guy cover it up and possession of marijuana. Now, the guy who Pac man, who beat up Michael Perez, There's a lesson in this. If you are going to beat someone within an inch of their life with a baseball bat, make sure they commit a murder right after that. Because they're much less sympathetic at that point. They end up reaching a deal with him where he pleads no contest to a charge of simple assault. Simp with a bat, which is down from aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, nearly attempted murder. He's sentenced to 216 days in prison and was given credit for all 216 days he'd already served and they released him. Time served. Fuck off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Have a great day. Wow, the guy you beat up kind of deserved it. You just got him early.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, we're not going to go out there and go, this poor man he beat with the bat. Oh, the poor man who's up for a. Two murder charges. Yeah. So the murder trial. The judge for the murder trials might also recuse himself as well. What in the fuck? Crazy. He said the appearance of impropriety was a concern here because a key witness in the case is his son's supervisor. This is what happens in these small towns.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, too many.

[James Petragallo]

Everyone knows each other. That's the problem. They said no one doubts Judge Hudson's integrity and ability to be fair. Nonetheless, all agree that the appearance of impropriety is a concern. And the concern is heightened by the seriousness of the charges and the likelihood that the judge will be called upon to make preliminary rulings on admissibility, which may turn in large part on the credibility of this person of his son's supervisor. His son's a cop. And this is his supervisor, his lieutenant who's gonna be here. They said Lieutenant Raymond Keefe is a patrol commander of the Bethel Barracks of the Vermont State Police. And Trooper Eric Hudson, Judge Hudson's son, is a direct subordinate of his. At the time of the murder, Keefe was a detective with the Bureau of Criminal Investigation and therefore would be testifying in this trial.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well then if your dad's already a judge, maybe pick a different profession, man. Cause this is gonna fuck a lot of things up.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, you should have went to law school, apparently, like your dad, but. So in the same town, go to a different town, you gotta go somewhere else. So the Murder. They also aren't gonna challenge statements made. Everyone was expecting them to challenge, to have their statements thrown out because they're both highly incriminating. But neither of them challenged. The deadline to challenge the statements comes and goes, and I guess they're fine with letting them in now. Michael Perez is going to go to trial here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

He's charged with aiding and aggravating an aggravated murder. And they talk about how he told the cops that everyone was smoking weed, but they said blood tests on Enos and Davis found no evidence of marijuana, so they didn't share the weed with them. Apparently, right. Now they bring Charles Sherman in to try to make him testify.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All right.

[James Petragallo]

He instead, they said, basically stood in court in leg chains and didn't speak. He didn't even take the witness stand, but stood on the far side of the courtroom close to Michael Perez. But they never looked at each other. The lead investigator in the murder case identified Sherman. Sherman then looked at Perez, but Perez kept his eyes off of Sherman. So he was in there just to pop up so they can go, that guy showed up, and then they leave. It was him and him. Michael Perez testifies.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is he gonna say?

[James Petragallo]

He recounts a different version than he's told again. Five fucking versions he's already told the state introduces various statements that he made to police. In addition to other evidence, several witnesses also testify that Perez told him that he raped Colleen before the killing and that he, quote, beat the dude and stabbed the bitch 57 times. That's what he told people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So he's going around bragging about how he raped and murdered people, which is a weird thing to brag about. Very odd. Here. Now the verdict comes in. 18 hours of deliberation. I don't know what took so long. In any one of his six statements, he did bad shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he has six statements, and all of them are very incriminating.

[James Petragallo]

Exactly. He is found guilty of aiding in the commission of aggravated second degree murder. Sentencing comes around, you, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole for Perez. Okay, 21. Life without parole for him. Deserve it, though. I mean, that's crazy. Next up for Charles Sherman's trial. They're trying to get his wife Donna to testify against him, and she's claiming marital privilege.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

She's saying, no, I don't want to do it. So they're trying to force her to testify about what she knew when she went with her husband to the forest. The day after all this happened. The cops were there. They said the question that he wants to have Donna answer is, at the time you went to the state forest to retrieve your husband's truck, had you been provided an explanation of how the truck had got stuck? Now, according to the records, Donna Sherman claims marital privilege, but the privilege is not a blanket protection, and some questions about her knowledge have been asked and answered. According to Vermont law, marital privilege extends only to private and confidential conversations between married couples and does not cover a spouse's observations or knowledge from other sources. So if he came home with blood all over himself, that's not marital privilege. But if he came home and they went in the bedroom together and he said, I killed a lady, that's marital privilege? Yes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can say what you've seen or.

[James Petragallo]

Heard, but you can't say, well, anything that's not hearsay, obviously, but that's it. So anyway, she refused to answer these during her deposition. So they're trying to make her testify. In the end, she's gonna have to testify a little bit. So Charles says fuck it and pleads guilty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's gonna. Okay, yeah, he's gonna plead. What she's gonna say is gonna make me look bad.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, she probably has the goods on him, so. And either way, he's in a pile of shit. And this guy got life without, we.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got enough evidence on you, it's not gonna go well.

[James Petragallo]

So in open court, he says that he handed Perez his knife. He said, it was my knife, but I gave it to Perez. And Perez and Enos fought there. He said that during the bludgeoning of Colleen Davis, he was less specific, but admitted to, quote, acting with wanton disregard for her life, but not bashing her fucking skull in. He turned and spoke directly to the two families which had attended every day of the trial as well, and talked to them. And we'll talk about what he says.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petragallo]

During sentencing here, the plea agreement states that he and the state are agreeing that he'd plead guilty to two counts of aiding and second degree murder and that the charge of aiding in aggravated second degree murder would be dismissed. That's the life without charge. So they agreed to waive a pre sentence investigation and stipulated that the pleas would result in his violating his probationary status. In another unrelated matter, because, of course, he's on probation, that sentence would be revoked and an underlying suspended sentence would be imposed to serve and would run concurrently with his new sentences. Also, he waives the right to appeal and the right to post conviction relief, including relief set forth in multiple sections, except a good faith claim alleging ineffective assistance of counsel or prosecutorial misconduct. It's the only thing he can appeal on. So they explain the factual scenario or the basis for the pleas was that they were together before the deaths and were together afterwards. And so they should. They're both charged. But he claims that he acknowledged in a statement that he was the one who had taken the knife from this other residence, not Perez. But he provided the knife to Perez, and it was Perez who was sexually assaulting or raping Colleen. So anyway, his attorney explained that from his perspective, meaning his clients, one of the key considerations was always that he's maintained and will continue to maintain that Michael Perez did the actual killing. He's pleading on an aiding theory to second degree murder on the notion that his actions constituted wanton disregard. Okay. And also that he pulled his pants down. He said he was told by that. Told by Michael Perez to pull his pants down, to, quote, come get some too. And that he was afraid of Michael Perez the whole time. He said he admits that he helped move the body, but it was all out of fear. And it was also he feigned hitting Davis in the head to placate Mr. Perez, who was ordering him to. Because when a 20 year old tells you what to do when you're 45.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You better damn well do it.

[James Petragallo]

You fucking do it. I go, what is that with the back of my fucking hand? Shut up. Are you kidding me? Jesus. Get some life experience and some anger built up before you come at me with orders, motherfucker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You got it, young man. I'll do whatever you want.

[James Petragallo]

So sentencing comes around. Victim impact statements. Here, Greg's father, Ken, he testifies during this. There's a letter from the 14 year old daughter of Colleen Davis saying not only did she lose her mother, but her best friend and would never have her mother's help growing up. I'm taking a long journey alone, she said. There's no greater pain than losing your mother.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Petragallo]

The letter was read by her aunt in court. Greg's mother, Elaine said Greg cared for people, especially people down on their luck. He was like that. Then he showed a photograph and said, I'm Greg's mother and this is my son, my only son. I wanted you to see him when you weren't drunk, she said. She said that he'd been beaten in the head, stabbed 20 times in the heart and chest, his face sliced open and his legs broken. When they stuffed him into the truck before they tried to set it on fire, they said this was animalistic, a barbaric massacre. Please tell me why and for what purpose. I Still don't understand. Sherman has a chance to make a statement and he does, quote, wow. Why? I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. I'd like to say I'm a victim too. Oh, what about me? He said that to two grieving families in court for their murdered fucking children, that they just saw pictures of their fucking autopsies and he murdered them. He said, I'm a victim too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Which the courtroom just. Chatter went everywhere. The families were pissed. From the newspaper, it says in broken and inarticulate language, Sherman begged for their forgiveness and apologized repeatedly. He said, you can hate me, that's okay. He said, crying. He said he had nightmares about the murders. He said he's been in and out of prison since he was a teenager and he's very afraid of Perez. A hardened prison hardened 43 year old's afraid of a 20 year old who gets beat up by a 19 year old over a 13 year old girl. This is bullshit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But you don't understand. He's new to this and he's a real rising star in the criminal world.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, you know it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Terrified. He said that he only pretended to participate in the sexual assault out of fear. And he pretended to hit Davis in the head with a heavy tree branch out of fear and threats from Perez. The judge said, quote, you are fully deserving of the punishment in this plea agreement. Saying that Sherman was doomed to try and find out the answers about why he and Michael Perez killed these people. He said there's no way to know exactly what happened, who did exactly what it took two people to kill Greg Enis and Colleen Davis. And I have no doubts you minimized your role. You, sir, may fuck off. This is two concurrent sentences of 20 years to life.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, so 20 to life.

[James Petragallo]

So he is eligible for parole in 20 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Which is last year. Yeah, last year, actually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Damn.

[James Petragallo]

2006. Perez appeals this thing. He points out the existence of sloppy crime scene evidence and the. The murders. Now he's saying they were a result of provocation, that he was having consensual sex. And Enos came out, called him the N word, and then it just exploded from there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now it's a hate crime.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Yeah, we should really dig him up and put him on trial. So, yeah, he's saying all of this. He's saying that he lied to police and varying accounts. Talking about the tree limb resting on the skull. They said, we know it's your shirt. And he said, no, all of this, it's denied his Appeals denied.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Good.

[James Petragallo]

Sherman Appeals too. In 2018.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Arguing that the judge was biased against him.

[Jeff Bridges]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

Saying also that he had been coerced. C O H E R S T. He spelled it coerced. Into accepting this plea and that his court appointed lawyer had been below standards and not defended him. This goes through a little bit. It's denied. Finally, in 2022, after all this, because they said you pled guilty, you said all the things you did. What do you want the lawyer to do? April 2024 is his first parole hearing. He first could apply for parole in 2023. They gave him a hearing in 2024. He said, quote, I'm sorry, there ain't a day that go by. That's what he said. There ain't a day that go by I don't look back and see what I've done. The parole people called him a, quote, violent, dangerous and high risk individual and said, get the fuck back in your cell, asshole. Good. And sent him back. Denied. And they both stay in prison. Perez is in an out of state, non Vermont prison. So there you go, everybody. That is Grafton, Vermont. The two biggest morons who've ever committed a murder on our show for no reason.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Literally.

[James Petragallo]

No. They didn't steal anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No. Because Perez wanted to sleep with a woman.

[James Petragallo]

He wanted to rape somebody. And this guy didn't want his friend to get raped. Oh, gee. Weird. What a weird thing to do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And then Pablo, was that it?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pancho Poncho didn't want to have him take no for an answer.

[James Petragallo]

That's it. So either way, if you like that story or like how we told it, more like better way to say it, get on whatever app you're listening on, give us five stars. It helps a lot. Shutupandgivemerder.com is where you get tickets. A few left in Philadelphia. We just released some. So there's a few left in Philly in December. Nothing for D.C. after that. That's all sold out. Virtual live show, October 30th, day before Halloween. You can buy it anytime. Two weeks in that period. You can watch it 100 times in that two weeks. Do whatever you want with it. Just like a regular live show. But you're in your living room and we're wearing costumes like morons. Great case, too. Halloween themed. It's gonna be awesome. We can't wait for that. Shutupandgivemerder.com patreon.com CrimeInSports get in there for sure and do that. Get yourself. Patreon, anybody? $5 a month or above. Hundreds of back episodes to binge on immediately. New ones every other week. One Crime in Sports One Small Town murder this week Crime in Sports Deshaun Watson's allegations. All of these. Oh boy. Then Small town murder. Internet salad time. We're gonna talk about everything going on in the world that doesn't have anything to do with politics. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get all the shows ad free crime and sports your stupid opinions. Small town murder and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. We are Smalltown Murder on Instagram smalltownpod on Facebook. You wanna follow us on any of these things, just go to shutupandgivememurder.com dropdown menu there to see it. Follow us and keep hanging out with us over and over and over again. And until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jeff Bridges]

By.

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