Is Everything a Cult?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Smart Girl Dumb Questions – "Is Everything a Cult?"

Host: Nayeema Raza
Guest: Amanda Montell (host of Sounds Like a Cult, author of Cultish)
Date: July 14, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives into the provocative question: "Is everything a cult now?" Host Nayeema Raza explores the concept of cults—what they are, how they operate, and why we’re so fascinated by them—with expert guest Amanda Montell. Together, they dissect modern "cultish" trends, the linguistic tricks cults use to gain influence, and even mock-build a “Smart Girl Dumb Questions” cult of their own. From fitness studios to Harvard, self-help gurus to Joe Rogan, they probe the sticky boundaries between community, culture, and cult following.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining a Cult – The Complexity

• Difficulty of Defining “Cult”

  • Amanda: “Narrowing down a definitive way of articulating what a cult is proved one of the most challenging parts of writing that entire book.” (03:14)
  • There is no crisp definition; academic and popular understandings often conflict.
  • The term is highly contextual and shaped by popular culture.

• The Rise of “Cultishness” in Everyday Life

  • Modern language now uses "cult" aspirationally (“cult following,” “cult brand”).
  • Amanda’s podcast, Sounds Like a Cult, uses a classification system: “Live your life, Watch your back, Get the fuck out.” (05:16)
  • US history and culture prime Americans for "cultish" thinking due to distrust in institutions and a focus on individualism (07:14).

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Cult vs. Community: The Social Spectrum

• Extreme Individualism and Its Consequences

  • As institutional religion declines, people seek “God” or meaning in unexpected places: fitness, wellness, self-help, expensive grocers like Erewhon.
  • Amanda: “Self improvement is, I think, the ultimate cult in this country.” (08:16)
  • Noted generational difference: Millennials searched for spirituality in new forms, while Gen Z shows a surprising return to institutional religion (08:37).

• Community vs. Cult

  • Terms “community” and “cult” can sometimes be interchangeable, depending on perspective (09:34).
  • Famous quote: “Cult plus time equals religion.” (09:57)

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Media Depictions of Cults

• Cult Documentaries and Pop Culture
  • The hosts reminisce about top cult documentaries: Wild Wild Country, The Vow, Love Has Won, Tiger King (10:35–11:20).
  • Amanda’s ranking: “The Vow, Wild Wild Country, Love Has Won.” (11:01)

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Building a Cult: Ingredients and Red Flags

• What Makes Something a Cult? (Paddle Game, 13:17–16:39)

  • Using a cheeky red/green paddle game, Amanda assesses:
    • Orangetheory: "Cult in a good way."
    • SoulCycle: “A little bit of red. People worship these instructors in a way that could lead to power exploitation." (14:45)
    • Peloton: "Green is a protective measure since it's virtual." (14:55)
    • Erewhon: “Red flag, even though I do go there all the time...the make America healthy again doctrine, that's no good." (15:40)
    • Harvard: “Harvard is brown. Academia in general is a bit of a pyramid scheme. It’s such a weird elitist brotherhood.” (16:13)

• Dangers and Modern Cults

  • Modern danger zones: AI therapy, exploitative online mental health gurus, and emergent personalities like RFK Jr. (17:06)
  • Amanda links algorithm-driven influencers and therapists to fast, viral cult-like movements—“easy come, easy go.” (17:38)

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The Anatomy of Cult Influence

• The “Three Cs”: Conversion, Conditioning, Coercion

  • Conversion: “That moment … something happens that crosses you over…the I saw the light moment.” (20:15)
  • Conditioning: “The rituals…the repetition…the way that you’re leaning into it.” (21:38)
  • Coercion: “Getting someone … to act in ways that maybe violate their prior values.” (20:15, 22:00)

• Language & Thought-Terminating Clichés

  • Amanda: “...the thought-terminating cliché. It’s a sort of zingy stock expression...aimed at shutting down independent thinking.” (22:36)
  • Examples:
    • “Everything happens for a reason.”
    • “You need to do your own research.” (QAnon, 23:56)
  • “Loaded language” and villainizing “the other” are cult mainstays (24:29–24:42).

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Designing a "Smart Girl Dumb Questions" Cult (24:46–32:35)

• Curiosity as an Anti-Cult Feature

  • Building an exploitative cult around curiosity is hard: “Curiosity, it doesn’t have a lot of thought-terminating cliches. This is going to be hard, but I think we can do it.” (25:20)

• Creating Insiders and Outsiders

  • Enemy: The “Know It All,” or “KIA.” (26:32–26:50)
  • Insiders: After brainstorming, they go with “Questioners” as the term for loyal followers. (28:03–28:09)
  • The importance of inside language, group mantras (“Not dumb, just curious!” (29:03)), and identity rituals.

• Monetization Controversy

  • Amanda: “[Cults] don’t necessarily charge a formal initiation fee...it might just be a matter of surrendering various freedoms.” (29:55)
  • Exit costs are more important than entry fees: social and emotional attachment is often the true cost. (35:02)

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Cult Economics and Exit Costs (33:44–36:00)

• Financial and Emotional Price
  • Entry cost can be $0—exit costs (loss of identity, friendships, community) are much steeper and harder to overcome.
  • Nayeema: “Corporate capitalism is A cult. And, like, healthcare is your high exit fee...the loss of identity...” (35:45)
  • Amanda: “Capitlalism is certainly more powerful than socialism. Capitalism is like the air we breathe...Socialism is the fringier approach...” (36:43)

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Tactics for Deprogramming

• How To (And Not To) Help Someone in a Cult (45:09–47:09)
  • DON'T:
    • Don’t accuse someone of “being in a cult.”
    • Don’t call them “brainwashed.”
    • Don’t use sources of information they already distrust.
  • DO:
    • Approach with empathy and respect.
    • Use gentle, Socratic questioning to help them spot inconsistencies themselves.
    • Encourage them to retain outside connections and invite them to alternative events.
    • Show that not everyone outside the group is “evil” or “ignorant.”
  • Sometimes “voting with your feet”—withdrawing from a relationship—has an impact, but it’s situational (47:17–49:16).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Self improvement is, I think, the ultimate cult in this country.”
  — Amanda Montell, (08:16)

• “Cult plus time equals religion. A cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God. A religion is a group where that leader is dead.”
  — Amanda Montell paraphrasing Reza Aslan and religious studies scholars (09:57)

• “On our show, we do have a sort of cheeky but ultimately pretty useful cult classification system, which is: ‘Live your life, Watch your back, Get the fuck out.’”
  — Amanda Montell, describing her podcast's rubric (05:16)

• “If you’re going to start a cult, like, you want to populate it with people that you would want to hang out with.”
  — Amanda Montell, on cat cafes as cult incubators (13:13)

• “Conversion is that ‘I saw the light’ moment…Conditioning is the rituals…the repetition…Coercion is, like, I can’t let go.”
  — Amanda Montell outlining the “Three Cs” (20:15–22:17)

• “No cult leader ever started with the most extreme version of their group. They just opportunistically went where the followers seemed to want.”
  — Amanda Montell (31:19)

• “The thought-terminating cliché is the power tool in every cult’s linguistic repertoire.”
  — Amanda Montell (22:36)

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Lightning Rounds & Rapid-Fire Segments

• Fuck, Marry, Kill: Goop, Pilates, Erewhon (Amanda: “Marry Pilates, fuck Goop, kill Erewhon.”) (38:13)
• Most cultish brand in America: Amanda suggests Taco Bell, Yogi Tea (“owned by an actual cult”). (38:46–39:29)
• Would you join a cult? Amanda: “Probably the no-technology compound in the woods, homesteader thing.” (39:51)
• Can there be one-person cults? Amanda: “100%...if you’re in a toxic relationship with one human being…” (43:00)
• Is the algorithm a cult? “Yes, both a gateway and cultish in itself.” (42:29–42:44)

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Practical Takeaways

• Red flags of cultish environments: Mantras, loaded language, rigid insider/outsider boundaries, high exit costs (social or financial), and thought-terminating clichés.
• Common vulnerabilities: Loneliness and optimism are frequent gateways.
• Healthy skepticism: Maintain at least “a whole foot, or at least a toe, outside of the political ideology…even if that’s just, like, a governmental structure or an approach to economics.” (36:10)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:14: Amanda on the difficulty of defining “cult.”
• 05:16: Amanda explains the “Live your life, Watch your back, Get the fuck out” evaluation system.
• 08:16: Self-improvement as “the ultimate cult.”
• 14:02–16:39: Quickfire game: Is it a cult? (SoulCycle, Harvard, Erewhon, etc.)
• 20:15–22:17: The “Three Cs” of cult indoctrination.
• 22:36: Explanation of thought-terminating clichés.
• 24:46–32:35: Designing the “Smart Girl Dumb Questions” cult.
• 33:44–36:00: The true cost and exit price of cults.
• 45:09–47:09: Dos and don’ts of helping loved ones in cults.
• 38:13: Lightning round: "Fuck, marry, kill" and cultish brands.
• 42:29–43:00: “Is the algorithm a cult?” segment.

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Conclusion

Amanda Montell and Nayeema Raza deliver a fast-paced, witty, and thoughtful examination of cults in modern society. They stress that the boundaries between cult, culture, and community are blurry—and that cult dynamics can exist everywhere: in self-improvement, brand fandom, online communities, and even one-on-one relationships.

Final thought from Amanda: “There’s no magic bullet or magic spell to get someone to snap out of a situation that is harmful…but I think it does require some amount of experimentation and commitment to being there for them in a number of ways.” (49:44)

Whether you’re hunting for red flags or laughing at the idea of a “cat cafe cult,” this episode is a must-listen for the curious—and maybe just a little cultish.

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Transcript

[Naeem Raza]

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[Amanda Montell]

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[Naeem Raza]

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[Amanda Montell]

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[Naeem Raza]

Who has the stickiest cult?

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, God. Oh, this is a toughie. Sticky is. Sticky is an interesting choice of adjective. I wanna say it's Taylor swift because like Mr. Beast's canon of work, while prolific. Prolific and algorithmically blessed. I don't know that it will feel relevant and captivating forever, but I don't think there will be any Elon musk stans in 200 years.

[Naeem Raza]

I don't know, actually. I feel like you're living in a political bubble, Amanda.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, I will say, sadly, I am familiar with Elon Musk Stans, but there's just something about music Man.

[Naeem Raza]

Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. Is everything a cult now? And can I have one too? This is Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. I'm Nae Mahraza, and today my guest is Amanda Montel. Like me and everyone else in America, Amanda has a podcast. It's called Sounds like a Cult. You're also the daughter of a cult survivor.

[Amanda Montell]

That's true, yes.

[Naeem Raza]

Does that make you more susceptible to cults or just more obsessed with them?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, probably all of the above. Well, so both my parents are research scientists. My mom is a cancer cell biologist. My dad is a neuroscientist. But there was definitely a general vibe in my home that, you know, like rationality was the altar at which we worship. Anything else was kind of less than. And I did appreciate growing up valuing critical thinking and science, but as is the way of rebellious, hammy children, it also just made me much more fascinated in people who had the opposite set of beliefs. But, yeah, I grew up hearing a lot about cults, because when my dad was a teenager in the late 1960s and early 70s, he was forced by his father, who was very interested in the blossoming countercultural movement of that era, to join what is now a pretty notorious compound cult called Synanon.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes, and we're gonna talk about that. But first, let's get definitional, because I wanna start with a simple question of, like, what is a cult? Give me a clear, crisp definition.

[Amanda Montell]

I wish I could. What? That is a definition that I have been reckoning with now for the better part of my whole life, but formally, for the past five or six years, I set out to write my book cultish, specifically interested in the language of cults from scientology to soulcycle. So how this wide spectrum of groups uses a specific roster of linguistic techniques to influence their followings, for better and for worse. And I thought, well, the easy part will be defining what a cult is. But as it turned out, narrowing down a definitive way of articulating what a cult is proved one of the most challenging parts of writing that entire book. And, you know, there are plenty of cult scholars who have come up with rubrics for identifying a cult, but there's also, like, quite a fair bit of disagreement about that. And as everyday speakers, you know, the word cult belongs to us. You know, like, meaning is ultimately defined by everyday speakers.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes. And it's become aspirational. Like, we say things like, oh, they have a cult following. It's like, all of a sudden, skin care is cultish on your podcast feed and sounds like a cult. You have covered Christian nationalism, satanism, manosphere, Joe rogan, kid fluencers, chatgpt. By the way, I don't think Joe Rogan is necessarily a cult, but we'll get to that. But you have all these different cults, and I wonder, is everything a cult now, or do you just need to make a weekly podcast or a three weekly, a tri weekly podcast? I feel like it's a very prolific podcast.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. You know, when we were first starting the podcast, there was some skeptic like, are you gonna run out of topic ideas if this definition of the word cult is so broad? Like, is it even meaningful? But that's why on our show, we do have a sort of cheeky but ultimately pretty useful cult classification system, which is, live your life, watch your back, get the fuck out.

[Naeem Raza]

You know, the kinsey scale of homosexuality. Like, everyone's a little gay. Like, everything's a little cultish. But, like, some people, like, you know, revel in it, and some people don't Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

I think in the United States in particular, we have a very distinct and consistent relationship with cultishness, just because of the way that our nation was formed, ostensibly and allegedly on religious freedom. But also, you know, we are a nation predicated on the Protestant ethic and, you know, like, determining your own destiny.

[Naeem Raza]

Meritocracy, American dream.

[Amanda Montell]

That's right.

[Naeem Raza]

And we also had meritocracy myth.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, well, you know, there is this idea in the US that I even subscribe to sometimes, but also do critique both and both and that, like, if you just work hard enough and put your nose to the grindstone, you know, another day, another dollar, whatever, we, you know, we will yield the results that we put in. Like, you put a quarter of effort into the gumball machine of life and out will come your success. And, you know, there are so many, like, systemic barriers such that that meritocracy is not available in the same way to everyone, which shouldn't be a radical thing to say, but, you know, meritocracy is one of the tenets of the cult of the American dream. And at the same time, you know, the United States is kind of an outlier when it comes to religiosity because typically, the more developed and resourced a nation is, the religious they will be. But the US despite all its resources, does tend to have a really religious population, including a cultish population, because we don't have as many social safety nets to catch us when we fall. You know, there's a lot of mistrust in the government and the healthcare system. And so, you know, that paves the way for a lot of alternative leaders to come in and say, I'll help you.

[Naeem Raza]

I didn't grow up in the US So the kind of way I look at it is there's been this creation of a country that has come from a lot of people who are persecuted from their own governments or felt that they could come here for a better life. And so that had a kind of requisite distrust in government. And then there's obviously like a history of conspiracy theory, et cetera. Like, Oliver Schum talks about this, like kind of the American mythology. And then a set of you can do it yourself. Like individualism driven mantras, the American Dream, et cetera, that, yeah, you can create and manifest your own future. So. And what's been interesting is, like, as God has kind of receded in our cultural life and like modern millennial cultural life, et cetera, I feel like we're looking for God everywhere. Like, I go to Barry's Boot camp. I'm like, this guy's at a pulpit. He's like, you can do anything for 30 seconds. I'm like, yes, I can. You know, there's this kind of God is everywhere at yoga. God's at Erewhon. It's expensive. God is expensive at Erewhon, but he is there. And, you know, God is everywhere in all of these non religious things. That's the greatest scam.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. No, I mean, self improvement is, I think, the ultimate cult in this country. But at the same time, I want to hone in on the fact that you said millennial, specifically millennials are looking for God in Erewhon and SoulCycle and Pew Research reflects that there has been an uptick in traditional religiosity among Gen Z, Gen Alpha.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes. I feel like it's gone down. I think we were the ones that were looking for God everywhere else. And then the Gen Z ers are like, oh, you know what? It exists.

[Amanda Montell]

It's called church. No, there are all these interesting explanations for why that might be, including that young people now are rebelling against their Gen X atheist by going back to Catholic Church. Also, obviously there's a rise in general conservatism in the United States, and so that has encouraged an embrace of institutionalized religion.

[Naeem Raza]

But it's also, I think the family stuff is not a conservative issue. I think a lot of people are trying to figure out, oh, can I have this hyper individualist, hyper capitalist dream and also have a family? And it's not just women thinking that, but just people thinking what it takes to raise other humans and build community around yourself. And so, you know, they could seek out religion, they could seek out, you know, partnership, they could seek out cults. And there is like a tension between the way we use community and the way we use cult these days. Are these interchangeable terms?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Well, what you or I might think of as a serious cult could be classified as a community or an accepted religion by someone else. Whereas, like, you and I probably participate in plenty of things that someone from a different perspective and a different background would think of as a cult.

[Naeem Raza]

It's like the cult is in the eye of the not beholder, like the other, literally.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes. I mean, and there are all these jokes that are told in religious studies. I heard the religious studies scholar Reza Eslan say, like, cult plus time equals religion. I've heard things said like, a cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God. A religion is a group where that leader is dead. You know, like when the prophet is dead. Now it's a religion and that. You know that.

[Naeem Raza]

So you're saying the fastest path to cult heroism, to religiosity is death.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay.

[Naeem Raza]

We are fascinated by cults. There are lots of great films, documentaries. I want to tell you some of them that we have seen recently. And you tell me which is the best. Wild Wild country on Netflix.

[Amanda Montell]

So good.

[Naeem Raza]

Osha Mashila, the unsung hero of that cult.

[Amanda Montell]

That docu series is cult cannon.

[Naeem Raza]

It's great. Love has won. Cult of Mother God.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

HBO's the Vow on the Nexim cult.

[Amanda Montell]

Yep.

[Naeem Raza]

Which is like the best one or stack ranked them.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, that is tough to understand.

[Naeem Raza]

Cults. Like, what's the most revealing about the ideal, the, like, the art and craft of culting.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, wow. Okay, I'm gonna go. The Vow. Wild, Wild Country. Love has won.

[Naeem Raza]

And watch them all. And watch them all. And there's one more. Tiger King. That was a cult.

[Amanda Montell]

I love that you included that because that is necessarily, you know, categorized as a cult. Docuseries, but it totally is.

[Naeem Raza]

Right.

[Amanda Montell]

That one is super camp. Tonally, I was like, that came out right at the beginning of Lockdown, remember? Tonally, it felt like a little absurd for my sensibility, but I did. I do. Yeah. I mean, it's a cult. It's a cult.

[Naeem Raza]

You know, death might be one way to fast track your cult, but I think the best way in America, this country of great mythology and love for the puppy dog and kitty cat, is animals. Leveraging animals in your cult.

[Amanda Montell]

No, it's fascinating that you say that because when, you know, we were talking about today's episode and I was thinking about, like, the sort of cult that I would build, I was like, I would definitely want to incorporate cute animals.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. Honestly. But you want. I don't. I think the thing with the tiger was. Well, I mean, they didn't treat the animals well. They didn't treat the people well.

[Amanda Montell]

That's actually ultimately, I think it wasn't even the tone. I think I couldn't deal with animal treatment.

[Naeem Raza]

You can't look at that. If you have a cult. If you have a good treatment of animals.

[Amanda Montell]

Cult. I think literally, I think if I genuinely were to try to start a cult, the gateway would be a cat cafe.

[Naeem Raza]

A cat cafe. You know, it's good because it. Why? What is it? What are the leading indicators of people who show up at cat cafes that would make them susceptible to a cult?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, you're so vulnerable. The one time I went to a cat cafe, my Cat had just died. I was like. I needed to be around cats. I was, like, so vulnerable, but also, like, looking. I was seeking.

[Naeem Raza]

Sorry about your cat.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, that's okay. Oh, my God. David, Bless him.

[Naeem Raza]

Peace.

[Amanda Montell]

Thank you. Thank you for saying that. But, yeah, I was vulnerable because I had just experienced this loss. But at the same time, like, I was still filled with enough hope and optimism that I wanted to get back out there. I wanted to connect. And the people who visit cat cafes, they're like. Well, quite simply, they are the sorts of people that I would want to hang out with. You know, if you're gonna start a cult, like, you wanna populate it with people that you would wanna hang out with.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes. So maybe not everyone wants to go to a cat cafe, but if you wanna be in a cat cafe, join Amanda Montel's cat.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. And I don't think it necessarily. Cat cult. Yeah. I don't think it necessarily has to go to a negative and destructive place. It just has to be fanatical fringe and feline enough.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. Fanatical French feeling. Oh, my God. Put it on a T shirt. This is good alliterative. This is what you've just done. Okay, we're gonna do a quick paddle round where we're gonna take this red and green paddles. And what you're gonna tell me, I know it's not binary. I know cults are they. Them not binary. But I want to say what is a cult and isn't a cult? So people can follow along and then we'll get into the traits of a cult. So in this version of red paddle, green paddle, the red is going to be. It is a cult. And then run away. Run away from the cult.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, so it's. So it's a cult and in a bad way.

[Naeem Raza]

Cult in a bad way.

[Amanda Montell]

Cult in a bad way. Got it. That's.

[Naeem Raza]

That's. Yeah. And then green can be. Cult in a good way.

[Amanda Montell]

In a good way.

[Naeem Raza]

And then no paddle can be. It's not a cult. Just put it on its side.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay. Amazing. I love it.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, we've tweaked the game.

[Amanda Montell]

This is nuanced.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay.

[Amanda Montell]

Somehow. Somehow.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay. Orange theory.

[Amanda Montell]

I've never been, but I think it's. I haven't heard any, like, terrible scandals, so I'm going to say cult in a good way.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay. Soul cyc. I don't know the answer.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, there have been. There have been scandals. There have been allegations of.

[Naeem Raza]

Girl, you gotta choose a color. Red.

[Amanda Montell]

Red. It depends on the studio, but I'm

[Naeem Raza]

saying a little bit of red is red.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay. A little bit of red. I mean, people worship these instructors in a way that could lead to power exploitation and has.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, what about peloton then?

[Amanda Montell]

I think the fact that it's virtual green is a protective measure.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, virtual is a protective measure in this particular case. What about Millennial Beige? I want to give it a red flag. I feel it is a killer.

[Amanda Montell]

That's an of taste.

[Naeem Raza]

Killer of taste, right?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. And of personality.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. It just. It reminds me of the cult that my dad was in Synanon, because everybody was not forced to. But. But, like, groupthink wise, psychologically incentivized to wear these, like, neutral coveralls every day. It gave. It literally gave moltage. It was. No. That's a no.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay. Erewhon. The grocery store. That is overpriced beyond belief. Sammy Cohen, former guest on this podcast, posted a picture of a $10,000 plus plant. They had, like, one branch.

[Amanda Montell]

That's crazy. I live in Los Angeles, and I do take people to Arowana as kind of a museum experience. I'm like, you gotta see the $19 milk. I would call it a red flag, even though I do go there all the time, because, yes, they have perpetuated the dogma of, like, raw milk and like, the sort of make America healthy again doctrine. And that's no good.

[Naeem Raza]

Is Harvard a cult?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, 100%.

[Naeem Raza]

Is it red or green?

[Amanda Montell]

It's somewhere in the middle. What color would that cream?

[Naeem Raza]

Crimson. Red.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, well, crimson red. Again, I'm biased. Cause I have an ex who went to Harvard, and he was so pretentious, I wanted to slap him. But I think that academia in general is a bit of a pyramid scheme. It's so gatekeepy. It's such a weird elitist brotherhood that kind of follows you for the rest of your life. Especially Ivy League academia. I would call Harvard like. It's brown.

[Naeem Raza]

It's brown. Okay, what are the top three actually most dangerous? Run, if you can. Cults right now that are active in the United States.

[Amanda Montell]

Cult at large. Right, Cults.

[Naeem Raza]

Like, actual cults. Like, I'm talking about, like, Nexium. Like, are there, like, actual.

[Amanda Montell]

Once you throw out the term actual cult like that, I'm just like, well, everything.

[Naeem Raza]

But I'm talking about, like, dangerous. Like, the stuff that would make a documentary in the year 2050. Ooh, what's happening right now?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, AI therapy people. I mean. And I just. I just wrote a piece for Oprah Daly about AI therapeutic tricks. That chatbots will use to sound like these transcendently wise mental health gurus, but have actually resulted in people's suicides at worst.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. Is there any specific ones like Charles Manson? Are there any kind of cultish leaders that you want to call to account that you're looking at them and you're like, I think in 15 years this person is going to be the subject of a Netflix series.

[Amanda Montell]

I am just like my particular interests and curiosities. I'm really oriented toward the mental health space. And so like I have seen certain really like power exploitative mental health gurus build massive cult followings on social media, but have been sort of felled because, like cults on Instagram and TikTok and these different platforms, they're kind of easy come, easy go. Yeah. Like you don't need the same type of charisma to inveigle people online who are like succumbing to an algorithm. Yeah. The way that you need a certain type of charisma to get people to show up to an in person sort of churchy space and keep them interested for three hours as you speak on a pulpit. So I have seen the rise and fall of certain leaders. I wrote about one in the age of magical overthinking. I gave her a pseudonym because she's famously harassian Litigious. I called her the manifestation doctor in the book. I do think, actually, I do think we will end up seeing a Maha RFK Jr documentary at some point. But I just, I just watched the Murdoch documentary on Netflix, docu series about like the Murdoch empire, Fox News, all of that. I do think that in the not too distant future we will remember the Murdochs as a cult family.

[Naeem Raza]

Really? Yeah. Joe Rogan, last one of this. I think he's. I think it's green.

[Amanda Montell]

That's wild.

[Naeem Raza]

I mean, I think if it's a cult, it's like, not like, I don't know. Do you listen? Do you listen to Joe Rogan?

[Amanda Montell]

Here and there, but he, like, he makes my ears bleed.

[Naeem Raza]

I don't think it's a culture.

[Amanda Montell]

It's cultish.

[Naeem Raza]

What do you guys think? We're asking Desta and Colin. He thinks cult. What do you think? Desta? Juries out.

[Amanda Montell]

It's on the border.

[Naeem Raza]

Is it any more cultish than Mel Robbins? Mel Robbins feels more cultish than.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, Mel Robbins is like Joe Rogan for women.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, so Mel Robbins, green or red?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, yeah, again, these are all my subjective classifications. Right.

[Naeem Raza]

Red or green, though?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, for me, red I just. I'm so allergic to worshiping the absolutist dogma of any one individual group. Guru or glossary. It's alliteration day here at Smart Girl. Don. Questions? Yeah, I mean, people who just, like, default to, what would Joe Rogan say? What would Mel Robbins say? I mean, that's an invitation to consider how loyal you are to this one person.

[Naeem Raza]

I know you haven't had a very crisp definition of. Yeah, we're gonna get to that. You talk about conversion, conditioning, and coercion.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes.

[Naeem Raza]

So talk about each of those three items.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so these three Cs were coined by a scholar named Rebecca Moore as a kind of alternative to the term brainwashing, which is useful and powerful for some and can feel judgmental for others. So this is just kind of another way of thinking about it. Conversion is that moment that you experience either, you know, scrolling or in person singing a spiritual song, something happens that crosses you over into this mental place where you're like, my life is different now. Like, I am subscribing to this group in a really profound way. You know, conditioning is. You know, most of us are familiar with this definition. The act of, you know, cueing someone to respond a certain way to certain stimuli. The stimuli that I'm most interested in are linguistics, linguistic. And then coercion is getting someone through various techniques to act in ways that maybe violate their prior values.

[Naeem Raza]

So conversion is that I saw the light moment. It happens to many people in September around Burning man, and it happens to the rest of us, entrenching us in the cult of not Burning man. From those people going, thank you for your service.

[Amanda Montell]

Let them board for us. And we're recording this right after Coachella happened. And I literally felt like I was. Was on the outside of a cult going down. Really?

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, I feel like, yeah. But each tent is a Sahara tent. It's its own culture, every kind of culture, 100%. And then, so conversion is the I saw the light moment. Conditioning is the, ooh, I like it. I want more of this. This is the rituals, the repetition. That's the way that you're leaning into it. And the coercion is like the I can't tell anyone else. Like, I have this bonding with this thing.

[Amanda Montell]

It's that sort of ends justify the means of, like, I have sunk so many costs and resources into this group that was promised to change my life and that I really felt would change my life. But now I'm engaging in behaviors that maybe I don't entirely recognize.

[Naeem Raza]

I can't let go moment.

[Amanda Montell]

Kind of, yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay. And you talk a lot about kind of thought terminating cliches that help reinforce this cycle. And what are some of the cliches? Cause you said you're interested in language and how that reinforces cults. Talk about some of the phrases that would be kind of red flag indicators that oop, you might be nearing a cult.

[Amanda Montell]

So one of the most significant power tools in every cult linguistic repertoire is the thought terminating cliche. This is a phrase that was coined in the early 60s by a psychiatrist named Robert J. Lifton, and it's also known as a semantic stop sign. It's a sort of zingy stock expression that's easy to memorize, easy to repeat, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking and questioning to your.

[Naeem Raza]

Give me one.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so in everyday life, a thought terminating cliche might come in the form of, you know, dismissing someone with a phrase like, oh, everything happens for a reason, or it's all in God's plan. You just don't want to have to think about more complex reasons for someone's pain or for someone's cognitive dissonance. But in a cult scenario, you know, let's say you're in a multi level marketing cult. Let's say that, you know, you're not becoming a millionaire in a year like they all promised because this is a rigged scammy system and you're, you know, complaining to your upline or at least just like expressing some doubts they might serve you with. A phrase like that is just a victim mindset. You know, a good system always works and this is a good system. I've heard thought terminating cliches in conspiracy theory type groups. QAnon type groups sound like, you know, you need to do your own research. You know, like if you express.

[Naeem Raza]

But that seems like a thought inviting cliche, like you would go do your own research, presumably.

[Amanda Montell]

Well, they just want to get rid

[Naeem Raza]

of you by saying it. You might think, oh, well, they've done the research and they know. So I don't. That's right.

[Amanda Montell]

It just means, like, essentially wouldn't work on me.

[Naeem Raza]

QAnon.

[Amanda Montell]

No, 100%. Like, let's say you're in a conversation with someone and you're expressing, I don't know, like a sentiment that you saw in an empirical study and you know, they feel that that is contaminated. They might say like, oh, you just need to do your own research, which essentially means stop asking me about mine.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah, what about enemies? Like, if I want to have a cult, do I need an Enemy for sure.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. You need to establish an us versus them dynamic. There needs to be. You need to be fighting against so that you can build solidarity within.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, so what I would like to do for like 10 minutes.

[Amanda Montell]

Great.

[Naeem Raza]

Is to play around and make a cult. I would like. This is why I've actually invited you here. It's nothing to do with the podcast. I actually just wanted free consulting services on how to build a robust cult around Smart Girl Dumb questions.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, beautiful.

[Naeem Raza]

But do you think the problem. This is the problem. I could have done it myself. Maybe, but it was hard because Smart girl Dumb questions is really built around curiosity.

[Amanda Montell]

I know that is. That is tough. If you are genuinely open to being wrong, then building that long lasting, sticky, exploitative cult is gonna be tough because.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah, curiosity, it doesn't have a lot of thought limiting cliches or thought terminating cliches. Totally. This is gonna be hard, but I think we can do it. I still think.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, we'll try. I'll put my earnestness to the side for a sec.

[Naeem Raza]

And I have an enemy. The enemy I think everyone hates. The enemy is the know it all.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, the know it all.

[Naeem Raza]

Everybody hates a know it all.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. I mean, the whole idea is like,

[Naeem Raza]

if you're not dumb, you're just curious.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

And nobody likes a know it all. So I feel like that's the thing. The dumbest thing you can actually be is a know it all. So I think we have a good enemy.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, great. So we're gonna need to coin a zingy nickname to villainize that enemy. Oh. I mean, know it all is fine, everybody.

[Naeem Raza]

So you're giving it a C. It doesn't sound fine, but okay.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Know it all is like a phrase that everyone knows. Like it's used in common conversation, but you could infuse it with this really foreboding energy. This is a technique known as loaded language, such that the last thing that an insider in the cult of Smart girl dumb questions would ever want to be is a know it all. You could even call it. You could. You could call it a Kia.

[Naeem Raza]

A Kia Know it all. A know it all.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, you know what? And that has that plosive kid, Kia.

[Naeem Raza]

This podcast brought to you by Kia by Kia. We're never gonna have advertising from Kia if we go with this, but okay,

[Amanda Montell]

I know it all, but I feel like Kia sounds good.

[Naeem Raza]

Intimates killing somehow.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, it does. It has that plosive kuh. It sounds like a slur. So.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah, like Kia.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so Kia, we're calling I think KIA sounds good.

[Naeem Raza]

Kia.

[Amanda Montell]

It's ugly. Everybody loves an insider Y acronym. It makes you feel like you have access to knowledge that other people don't. So KIA is great. And then you're gonna need the opposite. You're gonna need a term, like a really cozy, approving term for the opposite.

[Naeem Raza]

For the insider.

[Amanda Montell]

For the insiders.

[Naeem Raza]

What do you think it should be? Because we were thinking it can't be dummies. That doesn't sound aspirational.

[Amanda Montell]

No, that's not so nice.

[Naeem Raza]

Can't sound smarties. That sounds annoying and also naughty. Aspirational. It's kind of like Kia's.

[Amanda Montell]

We could coin our own neologism. I mean, we could coin our own brand new word.

[Naeem Raza]

What do you think? Could be. You're not a cult co leader yet, Amanda. So we're just so. You know, I just want to establish

[Amanda Montell]

America, and that's so fair.

[Naeem Raza]

It can be the Masheela, who is actually the more powerful person in the community.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally.

[Naeem Raza]

Totally.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes. No. The neck that turns the head.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, so a neologism. A neologism.

[Amanda Montell]

A neologism. Yeah. I think. What are some, like, terms of endearment that people use? Like, I'm thinking smooth brain. Like, I just want to be smooth brain. So maybe, like, you could. The insiders could be, like, smoothies.

[Naeem Raza]

Smoothies. What about somebody using the word Q? Is it too loaded with QAnon? But I feel like questioners or like, the questioners. Yeah, the questioners is interesting.

[Amanda Montell]

I like that. The questioners.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay.

[Amanda Montell]

I really like that. I really like that.

[Naeem Raza]

You like that?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, I like that one.

[Naeem Raza]

So we got the Kia, the Kia enemy, and the culture.

[Amanda Montell]

Which reminds me, you know, like, in Scientology, enemies to the cult are known as sps, which stands for suppressive person. So a KIA to the smart girl. Dumb questions. Cult is the SP to Scientology.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. And apparently Colin, our sound engineer today, has just told me K. I. A means killed in action.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, great. So which are these negatives?

[Naeem Raza]

What might happen to our enemies? I'm kidding. This is not. This is not a violent fault.

[Amanda Montell]

No, it's not a violent.

[Naeem Raza]

It's not a violence. It's a nonviolent.

[Amanda Montell]

It's just threatening.

[Naeem Raza]

It's just threatening. And do I need a robe or, like, do you think Zahra will suffice?

[Amanda Montell]

Zahra's fine.

[Naeem Raza]

Zara's fine.

[Amanda Montell]

Zara's also a cult, 1000%.

[Naeem Raza]

And what about me as a cult leader? What do you think I need?

[Amanda Montell]

You're going to need some. You're going to need some highly repeatable mantras that people can all say in unison to rile themselves up and build solidarity.

[Naeem Raza]

Like, you're not dumb. You're just curious.

[Amanda Montell]

Great.

[Naeem Raza]

Which was on a billboard, thanks to the.

[Amanda Montell]

I would shorten it so that everybody can be, like, not dumb, just curious. And you can do, like, a call and response just to make people not dumb, just curious.

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, my God. Okay, where are we going? We're going on the streets. We're protesting something.

[Amanda Montell]

No, I mean, scientific studies have been done on the spiritual power of group chants. They. They lower stress hormones. I think they could really help bond everyone.

[Naeem Raza]

And what about money? Because, like, one of the ways that I. You know, so far, I've monetized this podcast only through brands. I actually really don't wanna charge people money. To listen. Yeah, to listen or to, like, subscribe. Whatever. I haven't done that yet. And no shade to anyone who does it. But I've struggled with that idea. Like, do we charge money? Because I feel like a telltale sign of a cult is also. Like, there's some kind of initiation fee.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes and no. I do think the more grassroots cults don't necessarily charge a formal initiation fee all the time. It might just be a matter of surrendering various freedoms. Okay, so there are ways to explain it.

[Naeem Raza]

Like the freedom to know. I'm just kidding. You can still know.

[Amanda Montell]

I think there are absolutely sacrifices that you can have people make that don't involve money.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay. Like their firstborn.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, great. And some mantras. You said I need mantras. Well, I need Riz, first of all, as a leader. I need Riz.

[Amanda Montell]

You have Riz.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, so we're good.

[Amanda Montell]

We're good. You have plenty of Riz enough for

[Naeem Raza]

to be a cult leader.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, the thing about having a podcast is that Riz can be cultivated in post.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes. Oh, that's true. Wait, are you saying that's not happening right now?

[Amanda Montell]

No, this is perfect. You have an overabundance of Riz.

[Naeem Raza]

I need some conviction. Like, curiosity is the best way.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, definitely. Oh, my God. No, you have to believe your own sentiments.

[Naeem Raza]

And I need. This is where I'm challenged. A willingness to exploit others, I think.

[Amanda Montell]

I don't think it would be that hard. Like, you start small, you know, like a little exploitation. Yeah, start small. Start with, like, a little bit of unpaid labor from, like, a really devoted listener.

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, gosh.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay. And you could probably. Yeah, you would get used to it. And then you could build.

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, fuck. Okay. Just. I might have already had that Keep going.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally. I mean, parasocial relationships.

[Naeem Raza]

People are sending ideas all the time.

[Amanda Montell]

Profound.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

No, just start small. Like, no one. Like no cult leader ever started with the most extreme version of their group. They just opportunistically went where the followers seemed to want.

[Naeem Raza]

It's never like, I would like to brand people and, like, stamp them. They just came up with it on

[Amanda Montell]

the go, on the fly. They're not masterminds, they're opportunists.

[Naeem Raza]

I don't think I'm set up for a cult, actually. Here's this. Who's our target recruit?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, what are your listener demographics? I would just lean 80%.

[Naeem Raza]

Gen Z and Millennial. It means a little bit of God, a little bit of not God. Okay, we're. But you have, like, a theory. Like, I mean, there's a lot of research around people who are vulnerable to cults. A lot of this is around loneliness.

[Amanda Montell]

Sure. And also, counterintuitively, optimism.

[Naeem Raza]

Optimism, yeah. I feel like we might have that in our lives.

[Amanda Montell]

If you don't totally. If you don't believe that solutions to the world's most urgent problems, or at least the most urgent problems in your life can be found, then you're not gonna invest in a cult.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, do we have a exit cost? Because you have also said that, like, cults have a high exit cost. That's one of the variables that you're defining of a. I mean, it could

[Amanda Montell]

just be as simple as the fear that you're gonna become a Kia.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay. Oh, yeah. No one wants to be a Kia. No, that's good. Okay. I think we have a good cult.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

If you would like to subscribe to the cult, we'll do like a ad roll just here and put it in. Okay. You're already in the cult of sgdq because you are not a Kia. But I need your help with some evangelism. Three easy steps. One, I need you to hit, subscribe or follow if you haven't already. Two, I need you to leave us a review, ideally, and leave us some comments. I read every single one. And then third, I need you to share this with five friends as part of this unpaid, multi level marketing operation I'm running at sgdq. And by the way, if you like this conversation, you are going to love our episode with Patrick Ryden Keefe from a few weeks ago. It's about how to spot a fraud, a fake, or a grifter. And next week's episode, which is about. Well, it's a little culty, but it's about pronatalism. And I speak to this couple who has a handful of kids and like 30 plus embryos on ice. Now back to the episode with Amanda Montel. This summer, serve up the cookout classics, craft mayo and dressing.

[Amanda Montell]

Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian.

[Naeem Raza]

Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo.

[Amanda Montell]

We all know it's not a cookout without craft.

[Naeem Raza]

How much do cults cost?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, the cost is incredibly variable. Some of the culture cost isn't even financial.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. But in the financial costs, like some of these things we're talking about, Matcha, erewhon, et cetera, they're expensive to get in. Like certain orders or masons or whatever, they charge you an annual membership fee. Is that a leading indicator of a cult or costs? Not a leading indicator of a cult?

[Amanda Montell]

It certainly can be, because again, there's not a definitive checklist. There is a rubric. And this is why we have our Live youe Life, Watch your back, get the fuck out spectrum. Because it's like, you don't necessarily have to require people to devote their life savings to your group in order to be a dangerous cult. But if you do check price tag

[Naeem Raza]

on a cult could be $0, could be your whole. It could be like $1,000 a year to be part of a cult, a donation as you see fit, or it looks free, but it could cost you your life.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally.

[Naeem Raza]

And the last is the most dangerous.

[Amanda Montell]

It is actually a calculus because some people could justify like, well, I haven't actually spent any money on this group, but let's say you've spent 40 hours a week of your time. Or let's say you've just devoted emotional resources like hope or secrets, which is what you.

[Naeem Raza]

One of these defining characteristics you talk about is the exit costs of a cult. And those are high. Even if the price tag in is low, the price tag out is high. Talk about why.

[Amanda Montell]

Well, because if you've, you know, if all of your friends, if, like, your sense of identity and self worth is bound up with this group, then even if there aren't threats, like, someone's gonna beat you up if you leave, or,

[Naeem Raza]

you know, you have to return your laptop or whatever.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Or like, you're gonna be fine. Or, you know, it will be so spiritually threatening for you that, like, an alien will kill your soul or whatever, there will still be the exit cost of, like, you sacrificing connections that mean something to you and your own sense of self.

[Naeem Raza]

I feel like corporate capitalism is A cult. And, like, healthcare is your high exit fee. Healthcare. And, like, the loss of identity when someone asks you, like, what you do and then you tell them what you do, and you're like, I have a podcast or I have this, and everyone looks at you, like, are you poor?

[Amanda Montell]

Totally.

[Naeem Raza]

Does that make anything.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. No, I'm not.

[Naeem Raza]

Is corporate capitalism a cult?

[Amanda Montell]

Absolutely.

[Naeem Raza]

More than socialism?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, you're gonna get me canceled. No, I know.

[Naeem Raza]

What's the answer?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, I cannot tell you definitively, but I do know that this is one of the reasons why it is so important to keep a whole foot, or at least a toe, outside of the political ideology that you subscribe to, even if that's just, like, a governmental structure or an approach to economics. Like, whenever I.

[Naeem Raza]

What were you gonna say that was gonna get you canceled?

[Amanda Montell]

To say that, like, capitalism is cultier than socialism or socialism is cultier than capitalism? It's just, like, it's gonna trigger people, like, because this word cult, again, is so sensationalist.

[Naeem Raza]

But do you have an instinct on that?

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, capitalism is certainly more powerful than socialism. Capitalism is like the air we breathe, the water we swim in. Socialism is, like, the fringier approach to life at this point. So it depends on your definition of a cult, you know, And I am sorry that these answers are not as, like, satisfying and concrete as they otherwise could be, but this is, like. This is that, like, abstract curiosity that I operate in.

[Naeem Raza]

You know, I think that our cult, the smart girl, dumb questions cult, is gonna have some challenges. I think the curiosity thing is really in the way. I feel like it's really like. Cause it's like, the whole thing is people will start. The questioners will have questions about.

[Amanda Montell]

Questioners will have questions.

[Naeem Raza]

They'll be like, you're so into curiosity. How do we know you're not a Kia for curiosity? It's like, I just think it can't work.

[Amanda Montell]

And this is what I struggle with, too, because I like. Yeah. I mean, on Sounds Like a Cult, we encourage people to see cultishness everywhere they look. And so, of course, they see cultishness in us. And so there's skepticism toward us, which. Great. And like, I wrote about cognitive biases in my third book and critical thinking. And so people are like, you know, oh, well. And they say it in a bad way, but I actually take it as a compliment. They're like, well, we need to read this book critically then, too. And I'm like, literally? Yes, yes, yes. Like, correct.

[Naeem Raza]

Literally, yes. We'll do a little bit Of a lightning round. Beautiful. Okay. Fuck, marry, kill, goop, Pilates, erewhon.

[Amanda Montell]

Marry Pilates, fuck, goop, kill, erewhon.

[Naeem Raza]

Wow. And you go there. And you go there.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean I can live without it, but I cannot live without those goop salads. And I cannot live without my. My Pilates routine.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah, there's a High Venn diagram between those three things like that. So I think actually if you kill one, you might kill all in this case.

[Amanda Montell]

That's really interesting. Yeah, that could be a domino effect for sure.

[Naeem Raza]

What is the most cultish brand in America?

[Amanda Montell]

The most cultish brand in America.

[Naeem Raza]

Is it like Levi's?

[Amanda Montell]

I was gonna say like Costco.

[Naeem Raza]

They have like the like. I think it's like, like the first or second most distributed publication in America. The cosplay.

[Amanda Montell]

Well, that's actually impossible to answer because there are like cult brands in a cheeky way. Like Taco Bell and then there are.

[Naeem Raza]

I love Taco Bell.

[Amanda Montell]

Me too. And there are brands that are actually owned by real cults. Like Yogi Tea.

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, it's owned by a cult.

[Amanda Montell]

It's owned by the. The Happy Healthy Holy organization, which is

[Naeem Raza]

a Happy Healthy Holy.

[Amanda Montell]

Which is the Kundalini Yogi cult.

[Naeem Raza]

But they give us like, they give us little affirmations and advice.

[Amanda Montell]

But it's literally owned by like an actual cult.

[Naeem Raza]

Don't have the Yogi Tea ginger tea.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, buy it if you want, but it is good. I mean you say la la la. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism that can be used as a thought terminating cliche.

[Naeem Raza]

Actually. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Yeah, that is a way to excuse.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, that's right.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, if you had to join a culture, which one would it be? Besides mine.

[Amanda Montell]

Like a cult that everybody would agree is a cult. Yes, I would do the like no technology compound in the woods homesteader thing.

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, okay. You're into that.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

Is there a particular one you've eyed looked into?

[Amanda Montell]

Mm, I did hear about this one particular college where like really privileged people just like cosplay, like, like farmer in the woods, living 200 years ago. There's like a brand new novel about

[Naeem Raza]

a woman who wakes up and she's a trad wife and Anne Hathaway's just like optioned it, I think.

[Amanda Montell]

Or was trying to.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes, it's got called Yesteryear.

[Amanda Montell]

Yesteryear.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes. So it's based on a. So there's a real university somewhere or college.

[Amanda Montell]

I don't think it's based on that. But like that type of Vibe is in the ether. I think people are just nostalgic for a time before iPhones.

[Naeem Raza]

Yes. Sorry. There are two things that you were talking about. There's a book, yesteryear, and then you were saying you'd heard of a college.

[Amanda Montell]

There is a college. I forget what it's called. It's like a no technology college where kids, like, farm and DIY their own. It's like a hippie compound situation.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. Giving Topanga. Are we building a cult around loneliness?

[Amanda Montell]

I think the loneliness epidemic has paved the way for a lot of cult leaders to step in with perceived savior solutions.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. It's like that combination of, like. Like, we are. We've never been more lonely as a people and as individuals as we are today. Plus, the proliferation of podcasting is like a recipe for more cults to form.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes.

[Naeem Raza]

So true.

[Amanda Montell]

And thus Joe Rogan is kind of a cult.

[Naeem Raza]

I don't think Joe Rogan's that culty. Wow.

[Amanda Montell]

I think that might be because you're in it.

[Naeem Raza]

I'm not in it. I don't listen regularly to Joe Rogan. I just, like, don't feel like when I meet people who listen to Joe Rogan, they're not.

[Amanda Montell]

They're.

[Naeem Raza]

They kind of look at him with a sense of, like, here's what's good, here's what's bad.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay. There were people who had a really positive experience with Jonestown, but no.

[Naeem Raza]

But I feel like they're. No. What I'm saying is, like, the listeners of Joe Rogan often have nuance about Joe Rogan.

[Amanda Montell]

Often. But he has his accolades, his acolytes.

[Naeem Raza]

I think that's one of the kind of telltales for me. If you look at someone like Elon Musk, there are people who are like, he can do no wrong. Someone like Mark Zuckerberg, bizarrely. Like, there are people around him that, like, really know him. There are. This is what Mark does well. And this is what Mark does badly.

[Amanda Montell]

But Mark has so much power and has, like. Doesn't he have a. Doesn't he. Isn't it a part of his. I don't even have the corporate language to describe this, but can't he not be defrogated? He can't be unseated.

[Naeem Raza]

He has a dual class share structure which allows him to remain king forever.

[Amanda Montell]

That's a cult leader.

[Naeem Raza]

Can the algorithm be a cult?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Yes.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Because it's just encouraging us to fall down rabbit holes, encouraging us to believe more and more extreme versions of what we are.

[Naeem Raza]

Is the algorithm more like what we were talking about like loneliness and podcasting a gateway to the cult or is the algorithm itself cultish?

[Amanda Montell]

Both. Both. Because like we can all be a member, each of us can be a member of a cult of our own creation because of the algorithm co created with social media algorithms.

[Naeem Raza]

So what is the smallest a cult could be? Can a one. Can you have a one person cult?

[Amanda Montell]

100%. Really? Oh, yeah. I think you can have a. I mean, I've written about cults of one. Like if you're in a toxic relationship with one human being who's only charismatic

[Naeem Raza]

to you, you do talk about this and you talk about love bombing as one of the ways to get you in. What was it called?

[Amanda Montell]

The conversion.

[Naeem Raza]

Conversion, yeah. Yes. Love bombing as a path to conversion. And those three Cs we talked about earlier.

[Amanda Montell]

So.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, okay.

[Amanda Montell]

You can be.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. Certain relationships are cult like.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

Because then the person will say, you don't see what I see.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally. Or.

[Naeem Raza]

Or what else do they say? No one understands what we have.

[Amanda Montell]

Yep.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah. Okay. But is there a way, like to help people out of that cult besides being like blank twice?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Well, it is famously hard to change people's minds. Adults tend to commit pretty hard to the choices that they make they've made for a million reasons. It's a lot easier to say what not to do. You definitely don't want to accuse someone of being in a cult that is alienating and junkyard. You don't want to accuse someone of being brainwashed. Again, they're not going to want to listen to you if you can stomach it. Keeping them in your life and showing them the sense of community and respect that, that they are clearly seeking from this cult or cult like relationship so that they know that if they ever want to leave, they will have a support system to fall back on.

[Naeem Raza]

That's interesting. I mean, so the question really is like, how do you deprogram from a cult for you, but really for someone you know and love? Which is now it's like we're serious territory. We were joking about the smart girl, dumb questions cult. This is like a very serious territory because like I think people have this experience these days of like, you know, losing their loved ones to like intense political extreme positions left or right. Or to. Yeah. Or to like they're paying all their money into some church or some organization or some camp or whatever it is. And so in those situations, what are three things you can do to help someone and three things you shouldn't do?

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Naeem Raza]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Don't tell Them they're in a cult, don't accuse them of being brainwashed. If you're trying to argue with someone who's particularly in like an anti science type cult who has, you know, been conditioned to perceive sources like the CDC as contaminated, don't use sources like that to argue with them because that will make them feel unseen.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay.

[Amanda Montell]

Things to do, approach them with respect and empathy, as hard as that might be. As much as you want to like overtly judge them to their face, show them that there like is an alternative and that everyone outside this group is not actually evil and stupid. I would say, you know, smart girl, dumb questions. Use the Socratic method. You know, like ask them genuine questions to try and potentially get, get them to see the holes in their own beliefs and yeah, I mean encourage them to keep one toe out of the group as much as possible. Take them to alternative gatherings like come

[Naeem Raza]

to bingo night on Thursday.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes.

[Naeem Raza]

Invite them, give them an invitation or a question. I like that. Like invitations and questions I think are great ways to find common ground and to have time with people. Nick Kristof said this to me once about when you're talking to someone who is, you know, really set on the, you know, on protecting gun ownership, et cetera, like a card carrying member of nra, they're very die hard on this issue. The best thing you can do is start with a question that's small, like oh, so what do you think the minimum age should be like? Do you feel, do you ever feel it's a bit young and so starting to understand like the edges of their argument? Because I think a lot of times we have and espouse and, and the algorithm and our world actually encourages us to be kias and have this articulate a sense of conviction about everything. And I think anybody if you really ask in a good faith way will reveal to you some of their edges and that's like how you start a conversation.

[Amanda Montell]

So true. I really agree. Truly. No1 Kias. No1 K I A no1 Ksia.

[Naeem Raza]

What about one tactic which is voting with your feet if somebody is having, if somebody close to you is like in a really dangerous situation or in a not good situation. It's like there's one school of thought which is like actually leave, don't stay there and be their friend. Tell them this is important enough. I'll tell you, I was in a bad relationship once a long time ago and the, and one of my best friends from Panama really didn't like this relationship, didn't like the guy and Effectively was like, kind of receded from our friendship. Like, I kind of knew she was there. Like, if I showed up in Panama, like, I was still invited to her wedding. If I showed up in Panama, I would still stay at her parents house, whatever. But she kind of like decided that she was gonna pull away from our friendship in like a really visible way. And funnily, I said this to the man I was dating and he said something like, she's voting with her feet because she thinks this relationship is so bad for you. And it was actually him saying it to me that opened up my eyes, that I was like, wow, he sees what's happening. And it wasn't like he kind of like, I was like, oh, wow. And I actually really appreciated that because she wasn't gonna be an enabler. That's actually what it was.

[Amanda Montell]

Right, right, right. And you know, that's a completely valid approach as well. I guess I was thinking about it more from the perspective of like, if your child is in this group or if it's someone who like the thought of you not being in their life, even temporarily, is. Is torturous. But we each have to approach our own boundaries individually.

[Naeem Raza]

I think the boundaries thing has become a real cult, by the way. And it's keeping you away from this other thing, which is community. And I mean real sea community, not cultish community. And I think that's the whole, oh, I must have my boundaries so that I can meditate twice a day. I must have my boundaries so I can eat healthy boundaries, so I can be healthy. It's like you are in a cult of one it is yourself. It is really feeding into the capitalist structure that is like your local Pilates studio place, whatever.

[Amanda Montell]

I just did an episode of my other podcast because this is how deep in the cult of podcasting I am. I have two. I just did an episode of my magical overthinkers podcast called Overthinking about Flakiness. And it was like reckoning with some of these same ideas.

[Naeem Raza]

I do think there's just. There are certain times and you kind of know when you're like, oh, yeah, I want to retreat from the situation. And sometimes that like, retraction can attract somebody and make them feel the costs, the unseen cost.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, there's no magic bullet or magic spell to get someone to snap out of a situation that is harmful to them and to you. But I think it does require some amount of experimentation and commitment to being there for them in a number of ways.

[Naeem Raza]

Well, not voting with your feet, but I'M gonna eject you out of my cult. There can only be one, as they say in that film Highlander soon. But this is my last question. Every episode, asking my non Kii guests, what are they dumb about? What is something that you. What is a question you have that you've been kind of embarrassed to ask out loud?

[Amanda Montell]

I've been traveling a lot lately. I'm like, kind of underslept, you know, like, my body doesn't feel tip top. Why do. Why? Why is the only thing I want to eat right now, like cookies, French fries and martinis, when, like, the actual healthy thing that would, like, make me feel better would be, like, kale? And why when we need healthy nutrition the most, do we want it the least?

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, that's a good question. I feel it too. Cause, like, if I was exhausted yesterday and I found myself just like, snacking

[Amanda Montell]

on sugar, literally, I was just like. I raided my mini bar and was like, eating gummies. Like, why did I do that? You would make. It made me feel so much better.

[Naeem Raza]

There were healthy options there. But you chose the gummies.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, in the mini bar. Probably not, but I could have gone out and, like, gotten some fucking blueberries. Like, all I want when I'm already feeling bad is to, like, put more carcinogens in my body. What is that?

[Naeem Raza]

What is that? The self fulfilling prophecy of feeling like shit. You know what? We, the questioners, the cult of the questioners, are going to question this for you. Thank you so much, Amanda Montel, for being here. You can check her out on Sounds Like a Cult and apparently a second

[Amanda Montell]

podcast which is called Magical Overthinkers.

[Naeem Raza]

Magical Overthinkers. Get her books, and especially this new one that's coming out in 2028, a novel called where to Put yout Tongue. That's right, yeah. Any, like, you know, hints on the books? Oh, sure.

[Amanda Montell]

It's about a Hollywood dialect coach who teaches.

[Naeem Raza]

I thought it was gonna be exciting to me.

[Amanda Montell]

No, it's about a Hollywood dialect coach who gets involved with a sort of cult followed. Nepo baby director with a salacious secret.

[Naeem Raza]

Oh, a salacious secret.

[Amanda Montell]

A sexy secret secret.

[Naeem Raza]

Okay, well, Nepo babies, they put their tongues where they want. All right, thank you so much, Amanda. Appreciate you. Bye. I love that conversation with Amanda. Less like plotting world domination in my own cult, but more the conversation about how to help people out of a cult and just thinking about the world we live in, how commercialized it is, how connective it is in a way, and also how predatory it can become. I don't actually think everything is a cult, and maybe thinking everything is a cult is its own kind of cult. But one thing is for sure, our desire to belong is so deeply human and sometimes it can be deeply dangerous. What do you think about cults and also just about in the cult of sgdq. What else we should cover Please leave us a comment or a review or send me an email. I'm naeemaraza101mail.com I'd love to hear your thoughts about what episodes we should do and what this cult should be doing as we keep going. By the way, next week's episode is a banger. It's a little bit culty with this pronatalist couple and Pronata Natalism, if you're not familiar, is a movement to have lots of babies to push back against these demographic collapse headlines. It's a little bit wild and they have these forays into like right wing culture and Washington and I just want to understand what drives this couple. So you should definitely tune in for that. You should check out our episode with Patrick Raddenkeef from a few weeks ago on Grift and then tell me what else you would like to hear or see in the feed. That's it for this week. This episode was produced with Dusta Wonderad, Sanjay Nigam, Melissa Lee Gibson and Aisha Jordan. It was mixed by Kam Shankan. I'm your host and cult leader Naeem Raza and I'll see you next week for an all new Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

[Amanda Montell]

That's.