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Smart Girl Dumb Questions
Is It Better to Buy Flights on a Tuesday? with The Points Guy’s Brian Kelly and Nicky Kelvin
00:56:46
Is TSA PreCheck faster than Clear? Who pays for all these “free” miles? And is it ever okay to take off your socks on a plane?
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- [00:00]
Naima Reza
Window, aisle or middle? What does the seat you choose say about you as a person?
- [00:04]
Brian Kelly
I'm a window person. Says to me avgeek with a side of selfish.
- [00:09]
Nikki Kelvin
And I think if you're an aisle person, you're a drunk.
- [00:10]
Naima Reza
And if you're a middle person, you're definitely a sub.
- [00:13]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [00:18]
Naima Reza
Smart Girl Dumb questions. Welcome to Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Naima Reza and today my dumb questions are about travel. I love being on the move. I grew up on planes and yet these days getting anywhere seems stressful, expensive, delayed and sometimes dangerous. So I wanted to talk to two people who are up in the air more than I am. Brian Kelly, AKA the Points Guy, and Nikki Kelvin, his London based counterpart. Now, Brian actually founded the Points guy and recently wrote this book called how to Win at Travel. Nikki, meanwhile, is an aviation geek and travel expert in the Points Guy UK office. And he is Sarah, who I think has made viral videos about almost every single type of aircraft. I needed the two of them to tell me, is it always better to buy my tickets on a Tuesday? Who owns the armrest? Why is it sometimes cheaper to add another leg onto my ticket? And if there's no such thing as a free lunch, who is actually paying for all these free air miles? Finally, can a last minute traveler and an Uber planner ever make it work in the bedroom or up in the air? Here's my conversation with Brian Kelly and Nikki Calvin. Hi Nikki.
- [01:35]
Brian Kelly
Hello.
- [01:35]
Naima Reza
Hi Brian.
- [01:36]
Nikki Kelvin
Hello.
- [01:36]
Brian Kelly
It's so good to be here.
- [01:38]
Naima Reza
So before we jump in, just tell people how you got into travel in the first place.
- [01:43]
Brian Kelly
So for me, I was always obsessed with flying aircraft. Massive aviation geek. And my sister was British Airways cabin crew. Used to fly all around the world with her for very, very cheap. I was actually a lawyer, but alongside that started learning about points and miles when she ruined my life by getting married and having kids.
- [01:59]
Naima Reza
How'd she do that?
- [02:00]
Brian Kelly
It was terrible. And so I found Point Some miles as a way to replace the way that I had been traveling before. And so I became an expert in it, started telling people about it, writing a blog, have a, had a vlog, would you do these masterclass talks and got to know Brian and then I.
- [02:15]
Nikki Kelvin
Hired him to become me of the UK.
- [02:18]
Naima Reza
I love it.
- [02:18]
Nikki Kelvin
I got into points in 1996. My dad was a business traveler and he challenged me as like a precocious 12 year old to book a family trip. We went to the Cayman Islands for free and I was hooked from that point as I continued growing. I'm 6 foot 7 so I realized I want to travel, but like, coach just isn't made for me. So it's a medical necessity for me to sit up front. As a poor college student, I realized I couldn't afford it. Found flyer talks in 2004, and then in 2010 started the points guy as a fun little side hustle as I worked in Wall street and had all my crazy tips. And then the rest is history.
- [02:52]
Naima Reza
Now it's a booming business. And I think, you know, economy wasn't made for you, but you weren't made for economy. Let's be honest. And Nikki, I just want to clarify. When your sister got married and had kids, does that mean she stopped being a flight attendant or she bumped you off of her family?
- [03:05]
Brian Kelly
She carried on being a flight attend attendant and she gave her concessions to her husband.
- [03:09]
Nikki Kelvin
How dare she.
- [03:10]
Naima Reza
I've grown up kind of all over the world. I grew up in Indonesia, Sudan, etc. So I've traveled my whole life, but I'm convinced I'm traveling wrong.
- [03:18]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, everyone thinks the golden age of travel was like 40 years ago in like the 70s and 60s. But I firmly believe we are in the best age of travel. I call it the platinum age of travel in my book. But travel today is incredible if you know how to do it. And I just feel like so many people are missing the boat when it comes to how to win at travel today.
- [03:42]
Naima Reza
This idea that it's now the golden age of travel.
- [03:46]
Nikki Kelvin
Platinum age of travel.
- [03:47]
Naima Reza
Platinum age of travel. Okay. The diamond age of travel. I don't know. We're very worried about flights exploding. Yeah, you've been treated like cattle on many flights, especially in the United States. So how do you justify the platinum age of.
- [04:01]
Nikki Kelvin
So let's just talk safety first because, like, while there have been, you know, some concerning incidents lately, the deadly commercial jet crash in the U.S. you know, in D.C. earlier this year. When you look at the numbers, though, air travel is extraordinarily safe. Like, you need to travel every day for 104,000 years to have a statistically relevant chance of dying in a plane crash every day for 104,000 4,000 years. Think about that. You would have to get on a flight around your flight every day for 104,000 years. You know, whereas getting in a car, one in every 5,500 car rides you're in has a statistic chance of getting into a very bad crash. So safety is way better. You know, you can't even make an argument that in the golden age of travel safety, planes, they Weren't even made with computers back then. You know, they were made in wind vacuums kind of. They were figuring out aviation. And there were hijackings. There used to be like a hundred hijackings a year in the 70s, which people don't even realize today. So it's like, yes, it's easy to say, oh, the golden age of travel. I saw a picture on Facebook where there was a piano and people getting served a goose, you know, but onto your second point of like, cattle class, even economy in the golden age of travel was only for rich people. If you were not rich, you didn't fly. Today, you can fly from the US to Europe consistently for $400.
- [05:23]
Brian Kelly
We're talking about platinum major travel. This, this new high end of luxury that can become even accessible using points and miles. And then you add in what's accessible at the. At the cheaper end, the budget end. It's like there's such a huge range of options available that just wouldn't. Were not there. This just didn't exist.
- [05:39]
Nikki Kelvin
And the new planes, I mean, lie flat beds. You have suites with doors, lie flat beds. You can fly nonstop. Longest flight in the world, 19 and a half hours from JFK to Singapore. You know, back in the golden age, you'd have to stop six times to do that same route on rickety, loud old planes with people smoking next to you on a recliner.
- [05:56]
Naima Reza
So, like, I still remember when people were smoking on airlines when I was.
- [05:59]
Brian Kelly
Like a kid, I always, I always remember, like, as a kid that they have, you know, and they still have the no smoking sign is next to the seatbelt, the seatbelt sign. And it used to be like you take off and it was like a millisecond after the plane got in the air, it was like, boom. And the smoking light went off and you could smoke, like, immediately.
- [06:16]
Nikki Kelvin
You know, funny enough, nowadays passengers can't smoke, but pilots can. On certain Chinese airlines, you, especially if you're sitting in first class, it is known that all of a sudden you'll smell smoke. Every country has its own regulations. So even though in the US you can't smoke, I think Chinese aviation law state it's like up to the pilot if they want to or something. So I've been on numerous flights where I smelled smoke. And it's like, oh, it's coming from the cockpit. Like, the flight attendants obviously smelled it and, you know, they're moving along, doing their jobs. Yeah, smoke.
- [06:46]
Naima Reza
So wait, and do they control it in airspace? So, like, if you're in American aerospace, you have to.
- [06:51]
Nikki Kelvin
I think once you get into like.
- [06:53]
Brian Kelly
Maybe I don't know how it works. I don't for smoking. Maybe not. But I got, I was very lucky to be able to sit in the cockpit for takeoff and landing recently with sas, the Scandinavian airline and all these people. Like that's impossible. Like no, no, no. Because I think the FAA and the CAA in the UK they ban any passengers or any non crew being in the cockpit, for example in US airspace or UK airspace or with UK or US airlines. But in the rest of the world it depends on the, on the local regulator like their rules. So with that the scandi, the Danish government or whatever allows pilots to have whoever they want within reason.
- [07:31]
Nikki Kelvin
Sam Chewy always does that. I always see him in the cockpit landing. Yeah.
- [07:34]
Brian Kelly
And something smoking. Those kind of things. It's like up to the domestic regulator. If they're like it's up to the pilot, then it's up to the pilot.
- [07:40]
Naima Reza
Why is there such a service gap between US airlines and like the three Middle east operators or, or just in, or actually in general any Asian like cafe.
- [07:49]
Nikki Kelvin
I'm going to do a hot take here for a second. So I will say like, I mean I like, I really like flying Emirates but I'll say Emirates business class is terrible compared to even the US carriers in terms of the seat itself. You know I think there's a lot of reasons why people could say that US airlines just aren't as good as others. Labor in general in the US is very fractured. There's been so much consolidation. You know, labor unions have been left behind in compensation. So there's a lot of like pent up frustration with all this consolidation. And then of course Covid didn't help, you know. So I think a lot of certain airlines are worse than others when it comes to friendliness of service. But I would say you don't have the same consolidation in other countries and also those airlines don't have as many like employee protection laws. So like if you complain and if you're a jerk to your customers like you're fired immediately.
- [08:41]
Naima Reza
Right.
- [08:41]
Nikki Kelvin
You can get away with all a lot.
- [08:43]
Brian Kelly
Wendy, on, on American could talk to you in a way that somebody on Etihad or catalog it would be absolutely impossible. I would say that I feel like at the like a US based crew same as like a UK best crew at their best. There's something quite special about that when they're amazing. But, but at the bottom end it's like can be tough.
- [09:04]
Nikki Kelvin
It's like being in a toxic Relationship. Like, you're so used to being mistreated that, oh, but when they're nice, they're so good. Meanwhile, at their best, they're probably, like, still meeting what, like, should be, like, base level standards. But you're like.
- [09:16]
Naima Reza
But it's so sometimes their best. They're really nice. Like, I had experiences on United where they just come up to you and they're like, we just want to give you free points today. We just want to give you a free, you know, dollars. Being nice is the greatest travel hack. But also, then I end up really like, talking to the staff in the United States. The crews, they don't get paid.
- [09:35]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [09:36]
Naima Reza
Until the flight door is closed, like, if you're delayed. And that explains to me why they're like, so.
- [09:41]
Nikki Kelvin
And let's be honest. I mean, look, there are poor behaving travelers globally. I hate this notion that, like, American travelers are the worst. Trust me, there are bad travelers in every corner of the world. But I do think, like, US Travelers are really bad. I mean, I see it in airports every day in the US People just berating, screaming at gate agents like, baby girl, this gate agent didn't cause the hailstorm that is, like, delaying us.
- [10:08]
Brian Kelly
They should put you on the. They need you on the.
- [10:10]
Nikki Kelvin
I should. I should be a gate agent for a day, actually.
- [10:12]
Brian Kelly
Would be amazing.
- [10:13]
Naima Reza
I feel like you guys should do that. You should do, like, a full rotation across an airline. Like, work every job. No.
- [10:18]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah. Just to get.
- [10:19]
Brian Kelly
Well, I feel like. Oh, no. I'm just picturing you in, like, an Emirates cabin crew hat. But that wasn't actually on a plan.
- [10:25]
Nikki Kelvin
A pencil skirt. Me in a pencil skirt and a little beret.
- [10:28]
Naima Reza
Wow.
- [10:29]
Brian Kelly
Which uniform would you pick if you could wear.
- [10:30]
Nikki Kelvin
Oh, you know, Korean Air has fabulous. Oh, my God, they look so beautiful, these pencil skirts and, like, bows in their hair with, like, the pen through it. I don't know what the. A physical term. Like a chopstick in their hair. Basically.
- [10:42]
Naima Reza
So beautiful. That's the best. What do you think?
- [10:45]
Brian Kelly
I've just got this vision of Brian and I, like, fully dragged up in the Virgin Atlantic. Viv.
- [10:50]
Nikki Kelvin
Like, no, no, no, wait. My full drag moment for comfort, if I'm working the flight will be a KLM baby blue jumpsuit.
- [10:56]
Naima Reza
I love that.
- [10:57]
Nikki Kelvin
All six foot seven of me hunkering down in my kitten heels.
- [11:00]
Naima Reza
Oh, my God. Carrying those little houses with.
- [11:02]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, the Delta houses. Drinking one as I go down the aisle.
- [11:05]
Naima Reza
Those things are collectors.
- [11:06]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [11:07]
Brian Kelly
I'm going Virgin Atlantic. Vivienne Westwood, bright red. I think that's bright red with a bright red lip. Dye my hair blonde. Nice wig.
- [11:15]
Naima Reza
I love it.
- [11:15]
Nikki Kelvin
You've thought about this before, Nikki?
- [11:17]
Brian Kelly
Never.
- [11:18]
Naima Reza
You were talking about how it's no longer the golden age of travel, but now the platinum age of travel. I have this sense, this conspiracy theory that I hold. It's nothing to do with moon travel, but it has to do with air travel. And it seems like the space between the seats and economy keeps getting smaller.
- [11:36]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, it is. It's a tale of two worlds. So business and first class are getting nicer, bigger, more private, Free wi fi, you know, better perks. And in the back it is getting worse. Not always. Some airlines are, you know, have decent economy class products. But in general, all of the airlines we're seeing now, even Spirit, you know, and Frontier are adding first class. So the way airlines. There's Spirit, Spirit Airlines. Well, Spirit's always had the big front seat, which is a semi, but now they're formalizing more like perks along with it. The way to make money in air travel, there's two main ways. Number one, the first and foremost, and hence the word platinum age of travel, is that through credit cards, points, loyalty. These are the way that most airlines, especially in the US are making money. Airlines make more money printing miles and selling them to partners like credit cards than they. Than they do flying the actual airplane. It is more lucrative. You know, there's a joke now that these airlines are just loyalty programs that have some planes.
- [12:35]
Naima Reza
Oh. Know that the economy of them is driven.
- [12:39]
Nikki Kelvin
And which is why for people, you don't need to be rich. You don't just need to have tons of cash to fly even in the front of the cabin like in the old days. Nowadays, if you're just smart, I mean at the points guy, we have college kids who read our stuff who are flying first class to study abroad for free for 20. $20. Like there's a gamification that for those who know how to play the game and get platinum status and get the platinum card and like and maximize. So the currency isn't just cash. Only rich people get to participate. The currency is knowledge, cleverness and how to, you know, beat the system. And I think that's why this is amazing. But I will agree, coach isn't getting better. But once you turn left on the plane, I'm warning anyone listening, once you start turning left and lying flat and enjoying it, it really, you know, will make travel so much better because instead of at the end of a trip of like really dreading that flight Home vacation's over. But if you pick an airline you're excited to fly, it's like, oh, I get. Let's go to the lounge early. Let's like enjoy the experience. Because travel and a lot of airlines is an amazing experience.
- [13:45]
Naima Reza
I get the sense that Brian has not flown economy in a long, long time. You've not turned right.
- [13:49]
Nikki Kelvin
I dispute that. You know, when I go to the Maldives, you have to fly a seaplane a lot. And those are only economists, so that.
- [13:55]
Brian Kelly
Must be tight for you. Actually, there's another.
- [13:57]
Nikki Kelvin
No. And on safari, you know, you kind of.
- [13:59]
Naima Reza
Yeah, that's true. You go on the small plan hard into the Maldives. That's where the real suffering happens. No one talks about the struggle is real on the flights, the Maldives. What about you still fly economy?
- [14:10]
Brian Kelly
Sometimes I still fly economy. So while you, while I was listening to you, I was just thinking that I think we've already mentioned this, that at the top end and bottom end of these experiences, there's massive differences. Why it's so important to understand or have knowledge around different aircraft types even within the same airline. Because you'll find such a difference in products. But like the best of Emirates business and the worst of Emirates business, or the best, the best of Qatar's business and the worst of Qatar's business is like huge. And in economy it's the same. I actually flew, I've flown Korean quite a lot recently in the last year, maybe six or seven flights. In all their different cabins and their economy seats, for example, I think they have like a 34 inch pitch, which for economy these days is like really significant.
- [14:49]
Naima Reza
Like the, the pitch is the, the legroom.
- [14:51]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [14:51]
Brian Kelly
It's from like, I think it's from front of seat to the back seat to the back of the seat in front. You're seeing 29, 30, 31. Those kind of. Are these things not regulated as far as I'm aware?
- [15:02]
Nikki Kelvin
No, it's not the actual seat size, it's the number of seats on a plane safety wise versus the number of flight attendants. I think there must be like a. Like you have to egress a seat so they couldn't squeeze them too much. Like people have to easily be able to get in and out. But to Nikki's point, and what most people miss, like when you're searching for flights, like people just focus on price.
- [15:21]
Naima Reza
Yes.
- [15:21]
Nikki Kelvin
And it is not all the same. And even if you're flying New York to la.
- [15:25]
Naima Reza
Yeah.
- [15:25]
Nikki Kelvin
You know, for example, like if you have elite status, flying certain aircraft, huge business class Cabins increases your chance of the upgrade. Or bigger planes that have premium economy where the airline will give you premium for free. Or in Nikki's case flying British. They offer very, you know, relatively cheap upgrades from premium to business. Whereas if you choose an airplane that has a smaller business class cabin that's sold out, like you're not getting your upgrade. So I think people need to focus more than just on the price of the ticket.
- [15:53]
Naima Reza
And now that information is like out there when you're buying a flight on kayak and I think on Google flights as well, they tell you like the pitch. I'm always what is this pitch? Tell you the pitch, they tell you the recline, they tell you the aircraft type.
- [16:05]
Brian Kelly
I think the shit like the what the shame is for people who are not because like the airlines aren't telling you oh and like buy a ticket but be careful. Like we might give you one of our worst. I think it's such a shame for people which is why it's so important to know this. If you've. Especially for people who don't fly very often, it might be that one big trip, they've saved up their miles or they've like splurged and it's a honeymoon or whatever and to arrive and you've seen the advertising, you think you're going to get this experience and actually like the difference might have been you just needed to take the 8pm departure instead of the 10pm departure.
- [16:33]
Nikki Kelvin
But like an A3, like for example on Virgin, like A330, 300 is terrible but the A330 900 Neo is the best and they'll be the same price. But you just have to know. And I just, I. It like kills me to think of how many people will book, you know, they can go half an hour later on the amazing, gorgeous, brand new plane, right? And then they just. Most people just don't know.
- [16:56]
Naima Reza
So now we have to now look not just at the price, not just at the time, not just at the carrier, but also at this aircraft.
- [17:03]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [17:03]
Naima Reza
So what's that?
- [17:03]
Nikki Kelvin
I would recommend everyone if you're okay you're flying Virgin to London. I mean just Google what is the best plane? What is the best Virgin plane in premium economy or whatever.
- [17:12]
Brian Kelly
The points guy does have some great articles on that very topic. Like what is the best Virgin Atlantic sea. And it'll tell you and it and we tell you like finding the best. Both the best aircraft but also what.
- [17:22]
Nikki Kelvin
Sea as a consumer. Click down on details, flight details. So going that extra step, taking three Minutes to do a simple Google search and then looking at the plane type, understanding seat maps and you know, even JetBlue mint, they have, they fly a beautiful A321 once a day from New York to LA that is super spacious and private versus their old mint seats on every other flight.
- [17:45]
Naima Reza
So like, if there's not like a global answer to this, like you can't say, okay, you know, A381s are the best. And then I think, I think if.
- [17:53]
Nikki Kelvin
You'Re flying certain airlines, like, you just need to familiarize yourself. Like United from New York to LA flies the 757. Horrible, horrible. Old ratty, avoid, avoid, avoid. And they even have some triple sevens that have two four, two six seats across in business. Horrible, avoid. But most of their 787s are great. You know, so, so there's no hack, there's no one hack. But like for the airlines, the, because most of us fly one or two different airlines regularly, like it's on you to understand the difference.
- [18:22]
Naima Reza
So I just want to get back to what you just said about this, this idea that airlines make money not on the travel, but on selling points and loyalty programs to credit card companies. And then credit card companies make money on the fees that they charge to retailers. Right? Correct. So like the 1 to 3% swipe fee.
- [18:40]
Nikki Kelvin
Correct.
- [18:40]
Naima Reza
Right. So who ends up paying for all of this? Because we think that loyalty and points are free or rewards are great hacks, but isn't everything like ultimately passed to a consumer? Kind of like tariffs?
- [18:54]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah. So the system, why this ecosystem, especially in the U.S. so the U.S. is the global epicenter. And let me just press it. Preface this for any consumer listening. You need to participate in the system or else you're paying for it. Essentially, like those who are not participating in the system are, you know, we're all underwriting points because the, the cost of the goods we purchase. For the most part, when you use a credit card that earns points, you're not paying an additional fee. There might be a local barbershop or mom and pop shop that has a 3% credit card fee. But in general, like in the US you can use points, even earn points on rent. Nowadays with bilt, like there's all sorts of ways you can earn points on rent. And so the cost of that swipe fee, the interchange, is what the banks are making. You know, 2 to 3% is built in. And part of that the banks are saying to consumers, well, if you use our rewards card, we're going to kick you Back a portion of this generally like 1% of it, 1 mile per dollar spent, sometimes much more. So if you're not using a rewards card and you're paying the same price as someone who does, like you're losing.
- [20:02]
Naima Reza
Out, you're just subsidizing the points guy and his first class travel.
- [20:07]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, I mean, so which I tell everyone, you should probably participate in the ecosystem. There's no reason not so not just points. So if you're not using a credit card, and let me be clear, and I know lots of Americans and people are in debt, the way to win at the points game is by using points, earning credit cards and paying them off in full every month.
- [20:25]
Naima Reza
Right.
- [20:25]
Nikki Kelvin
If you are paying interest at 30%, which is what it is nowadays on many rewards cards, you are losing at this game.
- [20:32]
Naima Reza
Don't use that.
- [20:32]
Nikki Kelvin
Do not, repeat after me, do not get into credit card debt for points. It will never work out in your favor. But if you know how to budget and you're going to spend money for something and you have the money to pay for it, then by using a credit card, not only are you earning points, but you're getting tons of protections as well. Case in point, even if you know you're going to go to a villa with your friends in Costa Rica, even if they charge a 2% fee to use a credit card, I always do that because I'll earn points, which essentially will cover the fee. But protections, if you wire money and you show up at that villa and it doesn't exist, you lost all of that money, you will never get your money back. But if you used a credit card, you within a day or two, you'll likely have that charge reversed.
- [21:18]
Naima Reza
Yeah.
- [21:18]
Nikki Kelvin
So like just think about. But in most other cases, you know, the credit cards have protections as well. So my 2 year old Drew all over a thousand dollar chair I bought and I called Capital One, which I used to buy the car, buy that item within 90 days, they have purchase protection. And actually there's a clause under vandalism. So if you buy something and it's stolen, broken, vandalized, and lo and behold, Capital One refunded me the thousand dollars for that chair and I get to keep the chair too. And it' piece of art, but people might are shocked.
- [21:49]
Naima Reza
So you press charges against your child.
- [21:53]
Nikki Kelvin
Is what you're telling us. But so this whole ecosystem, points are just one feature of it. I mean I could go even further. You know, like when you're able to put stuff on credit cards and not pay it off for 30 to 45 days, you can actually let your money in a high yield savings account earn money, right? So you're getting points, you're getting protections, and you're letting your money earn money in this high interest rate environment. So by paying cash, you're losing out on so many levels.
- [22:19]
Naima Reza
I'm going to embarrass myself shortly because I'm going to tell you that I have over 2 million points that I do not use.
- [22:23]
Nikki Kelvin
Okay. This is a situation we call points hoarding. I know this podcast is now an intervention if we should get out the door, but you are not alone. The points hoarding is an epidemic.
- [22:36]
Naima Reza
Is there a time value of points? Like there's a time value of money.
- [22:39]
Nikki Kelvin
If you're not investing high level. So because this is such big business and the airlines keep pumping out more and more points, and right now in the US there's 100,000 point signup bonuses and everyone has points. So inevitably what happens is what we call points devaluation. So, you know, 10 years ago you could get a 25,000 mile round trip. Most of the major airlines, like anywhere in the US they were kind of, it was pretty, pretty lucrative. So you could get a $600 flight for 25,000 miles consistently. Now that's like 60,000 points, 70,000 points for that $600 flight. So we're seeing an erosion in value that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world because that's the redeeming side. On the earnings side, you can actually, at smart consumers, you can just get more signup bonuses. There are more credit cards now that offer not just big signup bonuses, but like the amex Gold is 4 points per dollar on all dining and groceries. 4. That is, you know, an incredible amount of points and a starting point. Nikki lives in the UK and Nikki can vouch Americans. Listen to me. This is like the platinum age of Travel in the US where you can get $1,000 easily from credit card signup bonuses that have a $95 annual fee. Like it's a bonanza out there for clever people who want to take a minute to figure out. But back to your point of using them over time. If you let. Keeping points and letting them accrue is like putting your money into a checking account. That is the essential. You will lose money to inflation forever.
- [24:12]
Naima Reza
But I'm like saving them for retirement or something.
- [24:14]
Nikki Kelvin
No, yeah, that's, that's not a good. I highly recommend to people.
- [24:18]
Brian Kelly
I just, I'm, I'm just, I'm thinking all the ways you could use it. You'll make the points. You know, if you're using, you're clearly earning a lot.
- [24:25]
Naima Reza
I'm just going to tell you what I have. It's so embarrassing. I'm like, actually embarrassed.
- [24:29]
Brian Kelly
Because you've got so many.
- [24:30]
Naima Reza
Yeah, because I've never, I never use them.
- [24:32]
Brian Kelly
But that's not embarrassing. Embarrassing is. It is like if you continue to not use them after this, after this conversation.
- [24:37]
Naima Reza
Okay, here's, here's my problem. I have 660,000 Avios.
- [24:41]
Nikki Kelvin
Okay.
- [24:42]
Naima Reza
I have 315,000 United miles. I have 627,000Amex points, 700,000 Chase Sapphire points.
- [24:49]
Nikki Kelvin
These are good points.
- [24:50]
Naima Reza
Other. This is like, I know, this is crazy.
- [24:52]
Nikki Kelvin
You basically got 2 million points here. @ a very minimum evaluation, that would be $20,000. But if you're a points maximizer, you know, we could easily get you to 40,000 points in value. But if you really maximize, like you could get $80,000.
- [25:06]
Naima Reza
I mean, $80,000.
- [25:08]
Brian Kelly
No, I think, I think so if you're really like playing it in the right way, using the right tools, you're talking like big, big round the world trip, first class redemption, really.
- [25:17]
Nikki Kelvin
Here's how you get the most value. So first off with your Amex points, and part of why we're in the gold or platinum age now is that there are all these new tools that you can use so you don't have to become like an expert and go to a million different airline websites with your Amex points. You can go to Point Me. Amex and Point Me is a tool like Google Flights is a tool to find the cheapest flights to pay for. Point Me is like Google Flights for award tickets. So that tool is free for AMEX users. So on any given day you can use that tool for free to say, how do I use my Amex points if I want to fly JFK to Paris and it'll actually show you instead of going, transferring to Delta, which would be half a million points, you can actually transfer to air France at 50,000 points. Potentially. There's another tool that you should use if you're flexible called Seats arrow. Seats arrow allows you. So say your dream is to fly Emirates first class.
- [26:06]
Naima Reza
Yeah.
- [26:06]
Nikki Kelvin
You can actually put in JFK to Dubai and search for a year and it'll. You can sort all the different days for 135,000 points that you can fly that $10,000 flight.
- [26:15]
Naima Reza
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [26:16]
Nikki Kelvin
So I mean, then you could be getting 8 cents per point in value. So yes, you can.
- [26:20]
Naima Reza
We're going to have like a whole planning session. Yeah, I'm going to email you.
- [26:23]
Nikki Kelvin
So by using tools you could get. Instead of 40,000, you could get $60,000 in flights.
- [26:29]
Naima Reza
I knew I was gonna get richer after this conversation.
- [26:31]
Brian Kelly
$60,000 richer, I don't think. I think the. The advent of these tools has been quite revolutionary, actually. Like a few years ago, having to manually do these searches, which is probably what you and I were great at. Having to like work through all these different programs and searching weather, being able to do this. Like, you basically click a button and even on seats Aero, where you can put in multiple departure and arrival points, it's like mind blowing of work. It can do for you.
- [26:58]
Naima Reza
Okay, here's one for. These are some audience questions for you guys. And the first one's for you, Nikki. Since you used to be a lawyer, Daniel Schiffman asked, when you get fucked by an airline, how do you get the compensation you deserve? The last of that with all caps. So she's clearly very angry.
- [27:15]
Brian Kelly
I mean, I have sued airlines before.
- [27:17]
Naima Reza
Like, you've sued airlines.
- [27:18]
Brian Kelly
Like gone to the. Where did. There was like gone to the Small claims court. In the UK they have the small claims court and they also have this thing called the cedr, which is like. Like, it was center for European Dispute Resolution. So there was a process where you could effectively. It was like a soft claim against the airlines that they're bound to accept. So at least in Europe, I would be first of all threatening that if you really. Not if you really are in the right. If you really are in the right and you're not getting what you're due, threatening a small claim or going ahead with it. I did actually do that. Well, this was a bit. This was me being a bit of a ridiculous lawyer. I once got stuck on a plane on the ground in like, like horrendous heat for hours, and I sued them for false imprisonment, which actually it did mean I settled, but it did mean.
- [28:03]
Naima Reza
How much did you settle for?
- [28:04]
Brian Kelly
Not a lot of money. Because they had a very robust response.
- [28:07]
Nikki Kelvin
Let me give the US response to this.
- [28:10]
Naima Reza
Vandalism charges against your child in the.
- [28:12]
Nikki Kelvin
US In Europe or in Europe and the uk, there's actual consumer regulations laws. In the US there's none. There's no passenger bill of rights, the Department of Transportation. Even if an airline cancels your flight, all you're owed is a refund. They do not owe you for the cruise. You missed any hotel. So that's why you have to use a credit card. With travel protections, most of the major credit cards do. So go to your credit card companies or get a yearly travel insurance policy. They will cover when the airlines, you know, but the airlines themselves try getting compensation from them can be futile.
- [28:42]
Brian Kelly
Can I just give it a real practical example? Because I feel like that was a little bit silly. If you are. Even if you are American, but you're flying on a European airline, you are the EU261 rules will apply. If you're like departing Europe, there's like, the rules are that you need to check up on the rules if your flight is eligible. But if you are, you are due compensation for delays, refunds, even if you're an American, if you're flying on the right.
- [29:01]
Nikki Kelvin
So Americans, when flying to Europe, if you have the option to fly a European carrier, do it because you have many more protections than on a US.
- [29:07]
Naima Reza
Call Nikki to be your lawyer and probably a better small claims corps at the airport. I'm just like imagining you at a very sad desk at the airport, like where they lost baggage claim pressing charges. Okay, Carlos Diaz needs to know, why do some people feel it's okay to take off your socks on the flight?
- [29:23]
Nikki Kelvin
That's a no. I have a whole etiquette chapter in my book how to win a travel and that's a no. No. It's disgusting. You know, flip flops on planes, people. It's cold on planes. You're going to get cold. Just wear normal shoes that cover your feet.
- [29:37]
Naima Reza
Maria, AKA Matchmaker Maria on Instagram wants to know what is the best way to unpop your ears? Do you have a house?
- [29:44]
Brian Kelly
I have terrible ears. Like, I think mostly outside areas are quite nice. But I have. I have a lot of problems equalizing. I find it difficult diving. And for me, the only way I can do it is it's a. It's a nose hold, a head tip for this ear. Quite a hard blow on both sides. But the main tip for me if people are struggling is as soon as the plane starts descending, I have to equalize my ears constantly as I go down. Leaving it until the end is where it can cause the most problems because the pressure's too much for me to then clear it. So it's in. My big tip from experiences is equalize your ears, like, regularly throughout descent.
- [30:22]
Nikki Kelvin
But for kids, you know, obviously give them a bottle or gum. There's also things called earplanes that people swear by that help with ears on planes.
- [30:29]
Naima Reza
Okay. I think your ears are lovely. For the record, Robert Denning, this is a real 1% question. This is for you. Nikki, why does he still use the metal ramoa and not the plastic one? Isn't he always just having to get it repaired?
- [30:41]
Brian Kelly
Well, interesting because I know I hate the metal.
- [30:44]
Nikki Kelvin
Romo.
- [30:44]
Brian Kelly
Brian is a plus one.
- [30:45]
Nikki Kelvin
I nearly lost a digit with the trying to close those damn clasts and. And clothes getting in the way. I hate them.
- [30:52]
Brian Kelly
I for. For the. My carry on totally fine. For my check in absolute nightmare. But I don't. I actually don't have an issue logistically using it. But it breaks constantly that check in one which is just completely ridiculous. So I think I might have to. If Ramon wants to send me a whole new set of the poly. Poly vibe, whatever. What's it called?
- [31:11]
Nikki Kelvin
Polycarbonate. That Polycarbonate zippers all the way, baby.
- [31:14]
Brian Kelly
Or just give me your old.
- [31:16]
Naima Reza
Okay, let's do a little bit of psychology and dating. Dating is one of my favorite subjects. Window, aisle or middle? What does the seat you choose say about you as a person?
- [31:25]
Brian Kelly
I'm a window person. Says to me avgeek with a side of selfish.
- [31:30]
Naima Reza
Aviation geek.
- [31:31]
Brian Kelly
Aviation geek.
- [31:31]
Nikki Kelvin
I'm a window person. Escapist. And I think if you're an aisle person, you're a drunk, you're an aisle person, you need to keep going to the restroom.
- [31:39]
Naima Reza
And if you're a middle person, you're definitely a sub.
- [31:41]
Brian Kelly
You've done something really.
- [31:42]
Naima Reza
No, you're a sub, you're a total.
- [31:45]
Brian Kelly
I just want to say actually is that a thing? Is there a sector people who are middle seat by choice? Because that is. They are. They are people that we need to probably not meet. You should get them on the podcast.
- [31:54]
Naima Reza
We should hopefully take them in. Okay. If someone always buys one way flights last minute, are they commitment phobic and should you not date them?
- [32:00]
Nikki Kelvin
No, it means you're busy. And like I book lots of my last minute flights all the time. My life changes. I'm not. I can't plan ahead. I live a very exciting life. And I would just say last minute. You can get the best first class tickets usually using miles. So if you're paying last minute prices, always make sure to check last minute for award tickets because airlines will release tons of really good availability last minute.
- [32:20]
Brian Kelly
And you could be taking that last minute flight to see the person to the date to the thing.
- [32:26]
Naima Reza
I'm a total last minute one way buyer. So I feel like this is great for me. I mean I also.
- [32:29]
Nikki Kelvin
Life's too short to plan ahead. If I find something good that comes up, I'm going.
- [32:32]
Naima Reza
Don't worry. Okay. Can you be compatible if you fly differently. Like.
- [32:36]
Nikki Kelvin
Like, you know, I dated nervous flyers, and I just don't think it's gonna work.
- [32:40]
Naima Reza
It's not gonna work, right?
- [32:41]
Nikki Kelvin
No.
- [32:42]
Naima Reza
We're gonna cause so many divorces right now.
- [32:44]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah. Sorry.
- [32:44]
Naima Reza
No, yeah, you can't. Like, I used to date a guy that would go to the airport so many hours before me, and we lived together, and I'd be like, you go to the airport, I'll meet you at the gate. Yeah, so we do that.
- [32:53]
Brian Kelly
I think if you fly a lot and you love it, it's like that kind of.
- [32:56]
Nikki Kelvin
But also like flying separately from your partner. I mean, I think I love my independent time flying. So, like, I mean, of course I like flying with someone, but.
- [33:03]
Naima Reza
But with your two and a half year old?
- [33:05]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [33:05]
Naima Reza
My little boy. Your vandalist. Vandalizer. Okay, quick round on flight etiquette. Brian has a great chapter in his book, how to Win Out Travel about all of this. But who owns the armrest, middle seat? The sub in the middle?
- [33:18]
Nikki Kelvin
Yes. Yeah. Throw them a bone, people. Come on.
- [33:20]
Naima Reza
But if they're a real sub, they'll.
- [33:21]
Nikki Kelvin
Keep their arms in. Yeah.
- [33:25]
Naima Reza
The middle seat owns boat.
- [33:27]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah.
- [33:28]
Naima Reza
Really? Okay, who owns the window shade?
- [33:32]
Nikki Kelvin
The window seat person or the flight attendant? If the flight attendant tells you, put it down. You need to listen to their flight instructions, but if you want to control the window shade, sit in the window seat.
- [33:42]
Naima Reza
Okay. Do you agree?
- [33:43]
Brian Kelly
Yeah, totally agree. Because I am a window shade, open generally kind of person. I once had a fight with a flight attendant who was trying to tell me it was like, it was a very long flight, and it was one of those where, like, you take off in the night and you land in the night. So if you don't have the shades open in the middle of that flight, that day has not actually happened. And I think that messes you up. And he was like. We have this whole argument.
- [34:04]
Naima Reza
Circadian rhythm.
- [34:05]
Brian Kelly
I actually, in the. Ended up going to the back galley and opening, like, the little window on the door, just like, staring out to try and have a bit of date.
- [34:11]
Naima Reza
Did you sue them after that?
- [34:12]
Brian Kelly
No, I thought it was Delta.
- [34:14]
Nikki Kelvin
I thought, oh, Nikki is such a Karen. What I learned today is that my colleague Nikki is a Karen.
- [34:19]
Naima Reza
We're totally gonna have Nikki on the Reddit. Karen.
- [34:21]
Nikki Kelvin
What's the name of a British Karen?
- [34:23]
Brian Kelly
What's like a. Oh, it's Karen. She's still Karen.
- [34:25]
Naima Reza
Yeah, she's still Karen. She's still Karen. She's just a little.
- [34:28]
Nikki Kelvin
With a Y. Carol.
- [34:29]
Brian Kelly
Carol.
- [34:30]
Naima Reza
Karen. With a better accent, you say, okay, is there any way to establish dominance in these situations? Like, what's the human equivalent of pissing on your territory on an aircraft?
- [34:40]
Nikki Kelvin
I would just say to this, like, I'm like generally like an alpha person in life, but, like, just have a little bit of people go on to planes, just want to fight. Like, just give it up a little bit.
- [34:48]
Brian Kelly
Like, you know, I think, I think the, I think a very, very, very early on little conversation or chat break.
- [34:57]
Nikki Kelvin
Versus the passive aggressiveness.
- [34:59]
Brian Kelly
Yeah. Like once you've had that, like, hey, how's it going? Like, when you're like, oh, you're like, hair is in my face and you're not, like, it becomes a much easier conversation.
- [35:08]
Naima Reza
Okay, so what's the best way you have this in your book? What's the best way to talk to some about the recline of their seat?
- [35:14]
Nikki Kelvin
I mean, just ask them nicely.
- [35:16]
Naima Reza
Well, you've never had this experience because you don't fly in the back.
- [35:18]
Nikki Kelvin
But like, no, I did actually. The woman, a good friend of mine, one of my best friends I met on a plane, she had reclined into my seat. I asked her kindly. She had no problem. And then we ended up becoming like best friends many years later. She actually helped me write this book, which is kind of funny, writing that chapter with her.
- [35:31]
Naima Reza
Now she flies for free.
- [35:33]
Nikki Kelvin
But yeah, I mean, in general, people can recline their seats. You know, I talk about in the book. So if you want a seat that doesn't recline into, you pay for a seat that's in a bulkhead or an exit row. Like, you take it on yourself. But seats that recline for a reason, and it's your right to recline. But people who recline don't do it during meal service. No one wants to see your scalp as they're eating their cheap meal. And you know, if you see someone super tall, like, have a little compassion. If you don't absolutely need to recline, then don't recline.
- [35:57]
Naima Reza
Okay, simple yes or no. Should you trust the people in the emergency the exit row with your life just because they gave a verbal yes, I say yes.
- [36:05]
Nikki Kelvin
Shockingly, like, plane. The airlines are really good at, like getting planes.
- [36:09]
Brian Kelly
Shockingly, it's not, it's not that deep. I don't, I cannot imagine a situation where the difference between me living and dying is because the person couldn't quite operate the door correctly. Like, I feel like that's not going.
- [36:18]
Naima Reza
To be the case. And your sister wasn't.
- [36:20]
Nikki Kelvin
I think the flight attendants still do It.
- [36:21]
Naima Reza
I don't know.
- [36:22]
Nikki Kelvin
Don't they? Do you think that the actual people in the seat open the doors?
- [36:25]
Naima Reza
You gave a verbal yes when they ask you.
- [36:27]
Brian Kelly
I would love to have a go at it. I have a bit of an obsession with aircraft.
- [36:30]
Nikki Kelvin
So the next time you're stuck on a plane, on a hot plane, just.
- [36:33]
Naima Reza
Do, let's do it. Okay. Yes or no clapping on planes in.
- [36:37]
Brian Kelly
The right situation, it's a yes.
- [36:39]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, I don't care. Clap if you want to clap.
- [36:41]
Naima Reza
Okay.
- [36:41]
Nikki Kelvin
I'm not one of those like these people who get so upset over silly stuff like that. Like have perspective if someone wants to clap, like enjoy. What if I personally don't pets on.
- [36:51]
Naima Reza
Planes, like, you know, these are not all service dogs that are sitting up there.
- [36:54]
Nikki Kelvin
Keep your pet in check. I love animals but like the people who have these unruly dogs. But in general I don't, I don't think that that's like a huge issue happening. It was. There were a lot of people bringing dogs. I think they clamped down, I think correctly so because flight attendants were getting bit. But yeah, I'm fine with pets. But just control your pet, put it in the proper carrier.
- [37:12]
Naima Reza
You're an avgeek. Is there not going to be a time where they cannot have the animals in the hold? I feel so sad.
- [37:19]
Brian Kelly
Do you know what's really cool? Just a. Just slightly different topic. If you look at the Middle Eastern carriers, they have of very set rules around carrying falcons on planes and they. But then you can take them in the cabin. But the allowance is different for different cabins. And literally on the Katar website it'd be like first class tickets. You can have like it's like two check in bags and like three falcons. Really cool. I really wanted to make a video about like how like flying with. Flying with a falcon. I think that's one I'd have to do.
- [37:47]
Naima Reza
Yeah. Other animals are not regulated. So I've seen something where like the.
- [37:50]
Nikki Kelvin
Falcons are quiet with their hoods on.
- [37:51]
Naima Reza
I mean, yeah, if they're also hunting animals. I don't want to be sitting next to a hunting animal.
- [37:56]
Nikki Kelvin
Why not?
- [37:56]
Naima Reza
I don't know.
- [37:57]
Nikki Kelvin
I'd rather sit next to a falcon than name 98% of people.
- [38:00]
Naima Reza
The guy who's flying with a falcon is definitely flying like you know the Etihad platinum shower cabin.
- [38:05]
Nikki Kelvin
Those are expensive.
- [38:07]
Naima Reza
Okay, but what's the best airline to fly with a pet?
- [38:10]
Nikki Kelvin
Oh jsx. It's not quite an airline but it's the like semi private carrier. They're super dog friendly or they have that canine air. It's like a private jet for dogs.
- [38:22]
Brian Kelly
It's not really a thing in Europe or in the UK at least. Like it's, you pretty much can't fly with animals in cabins. The rules are quite different.
- [38:28]
Naima Reza
More consumer protection, less pet rope protection.
- [38:30]
Brian Kelly
No pets, loads of cash if something goes wrong.
- [38:32]
Naima Reza
So I want to do a rapid fire round on travel questions. Dumb travel questions. Okay. So Nikki, many people want to know if the flight cost is less when you travel on certain days. Like if you fly on Tuesdays, is it cheaper?
- [38:47]
Brian Kelly
First of all, you hear this thing of like the certain day that's cheaper. But also people say Tuesdays is the cheapest day to book.
- [38:52]
Naima Reza
Yes.
- [38:53]
Brian Kelly
Data shows that like flexibility is the, is the best way. Being flexible on the day you can fly is the, is the way to find the cheapest fares. I think midweek tends to be cheaper, start the week end of the week busier with business travel, weekends might tend to be cheaper. Timing also makes a difference. But generally flexibility, you being a flexible traveler is the way to find the cheapest fares. There's no really hard and fast rules. I think every they bring out reports and it's like okay, like Wednesday was the, Tuesday was the cheapest day to fly. But I think it's like ever changing and in your micro situation it's just going to be completely.
- [39:26]
Naima Reza
Do airlines have surge pricing, kind of like Uber?
- [39:28]
Nikki Kelvin
Well yeah. Airline pricing is based on demand. So if everyone's going to the super bowl or ces like they're going to gouge you basically.
- [39:35]
Naima Reza
So one is the way I, I book flights is I think the way many people book flights, which is that. And there's a viral meme on this like a month before when I know that I have to go to a wedding in Europe or whatever, I look at the flights, I see that they're kind of reasonable. I don't have the decisions made in my head about what day I'm going, when I'm going to stay, where I'm going to stay, et cetera, etc. So then I wait, I go back a week later, the flights are more expensive. I'm angry at the provider of the flights and at the booking thing. So I leave it, I come back a week later, it's now like a week before travel. Flights are outrageously expensive. I'm more angry flights are now out. So I end up with either paying up the wazoo, having some kind of connecting red eye terrible situation or like canceling my trip entirely. I think Many people do this. When is actually the best time for people to buy flights? Like it will be May when people hear this, when should they be buying their summer vacations? How far in advance?
- [40:31]
Nikki Kelvin
In the US it's generally four to six weeks before domestic flights is like a sweet spot for international. Like three to six months. Like generally three to six months. Yeah. They especially as you get closer in international skyrockets.
- [40:45]
Brian Kelly
But if we're talking about your kind of situation, which is probably a common situation, maybe some people don't know where they're going in six months time, maybe you're planning a big holiday, but something comes up. Now is always, almost always better than later.
- [40:58]
Nikki Kelvin
So like airfare goes up more than it goes down. That's a stat that has always.
- [41:02]
Brian Kelly
Maybe there's like the odd sale, but like a last minute sale. You just don't really see it. But one thing I would say is also I know you wanted this to be a little bit more general, but booking with points also tends to give you much more flexibility. So it feels much more comfortable being like make that obvious booking and actually I can change it for a small feature.
- [41:20]
Nikki Kelvin
I will just say what you should do is book with points because all the US frequent flyer programs and is what people don't realize, they let you cancel free of charge up until departure.
- [41:29]
Naima Reza
Right.
- [41:30]
Nikki Kelvin
So when you know you want to go to a wedding, just book something using your United miles. You can always cancel it for free. So you know, yeah, worst case you have a flight because a lot of times the top destinations, holiday weekends, they sell out. So say you're on a flight, you're going to a wedding, you have to get there. Delay, delay. Oh no. Oh no. I think by the way it's probably going to get delayed more immediately. Instead of waiting for the airline to maybe put you on a flight the next day, get your miles out, book on a different airline from the same airport and have that as a backup option. If your flight ends up really getting delayed or canceled, you have a flight backed up. If you don't need your backup because your normal flight goes out, you cancel it before departure. You get all your miles and points back for free. Yeah, people don't really.
- [42:06]
Naima Reza
A different carrier.
- [42:07]
Nikki Kelvin
Different carrier. Yeah, you can't book the same carrier that'll cancel it.
- [42:10]
Brian Kelly
Otherwise you're at the back of the line.
- [42:12]
Naima Reza
Yes, that's true. Is clear actually faster than just TSA PreCheck. I have this argument with people all the time.
- [42:17]
Nikki Kelvin
I would say it depends on if I had to have either. I would choose TSA Precheck. But I mean I, I get clear for free through credit cards.
- [42:26]
Brian Kelly
I only have pre check. I don't have clear. And it's been very beneficial to me on the whole. There's the old time where like the lines are huge or like it's not real pre check.
- [42:34]
Nikki Kelvin
Global entry.
- [42:35]
Brian Kelly
As a Brit, but I have global entry and even I arrived at JFK yesterday, right? There was 10 billion people queuing at Terminal 8 when I landed.
- [42:45]
Naima Reza
I feel like air travel is, is crazy because how can it cost more to fly less space? So talk about skip lagging. What? Skip? Is that what it's called, skip lagging?
- [42:54]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, skip, yeah. Airlines price demand based on two cities, where you start and where you end. So what people have found is that if you connect in a certain airport in between, you can win against airline models because the flight with that connection point, if you just don't take the final leg so you can book, book, you know, a connecting flight that is far cheaper than if you were to just put the first two legs together. And so that works. The airlines are catching on to it. They don't, you know, it's not illegal, you're not going to go to jail for doing it. But there is a chance the airlines could cancel your frequent flyer account. So if you're going to be skip lagging, I don't recommend having a huge frequent flyer account. Oh, they can take you. Oh, they can take your miles away. Europe.
- [43:37]
Brian Kelly
I think they've. Airlines have come after people to charge them the fare that they would have paid. But I think these are people who are like regularly abusing that as a, as a hack.
- [43:48]
Naima Reza
But they can't get you out the outbounds. Like if you're flying from London and you want to avoid these crazy Heathrow taxes, they are crazy. And you go to, I don't know, you take the Eurostar to Paris.
- [43:58]
Brian Kelly
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Naima Reza
Then fly through London to get to where you're going.
- [44:01]
Brian Kelly
So I've done that loads and it's like dropping the last leg, you know, do that once a year and it's not a problem at all. But those kind of tickets, like I book booked loads and loads of times because they really can save like unbelievable money, especially on cash fares. Actually, if you're buying cash business class, I'm talking about Europe here, flying out of Paris or Amsterdam or Dublin can be like a third of the price of flying out of London. Even though you're picking up like the same fly out of London.
- [44:26]
Nikki Kelvin
Right.
- [44:26]
Naima Reza
And the skip lagging is just skipping that last leg back to Paris.
- [44:29]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, you can't check a bag if you're skip lagging because they check your bag through to the final destination and.
- [44:34]
Brian Kelly
You can't miss the first flight because they'll count. You're a no show, they can cancel your ticket.
- [44:37]
Naima Reza
Got it. Okay. Fuck, marry, kill credit card edition points, Miles or cash back points.
- [44:44]
Nikki Kelvin
To me, points are the best because you can transfer them. So I'm going to marry them. Kill cash back and fuck miles.
- [44:51]
Brian Kelly
Sure, I'll go the same. We have to kill cash back.
- [44:54]
Naima Reza
Boring.
- [44:55]
Nikki Kelvin
And points technically are better than miles because a lot of points currencies, like credit card points can transfer to 30 different airlines. So to me a point is more valuable than a mile in general.
- [45:04]
Brian Kelly
Can we just throuple it? Marion? Fuck points, Miles.
- [45:07]
Naima Reza
What about the hotel edition? Fuck, marry, kill boutique hotels all in resorts or Airbnbs?
- [45:15]
Brian Kelly
Okay, I'll fuck the boutique, I'll marry the Airbnb and I'll kill the all in resorts.
- [45:22]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, I'll kill all inclusives. I will marry boutique hotels and I'll fuck Airbnbs.
- [45:29]
Naima Reza
Yeah, Brian and I have the same type. Maybe in other ways too, but on this.
- [45:34]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, but like high end Airbnbs, like ones that are like managed by a management company that yeah, I want to.
- [45:38]
Naima Reza
Fuck them, but I don't want to.
- [45:39]
Nikki Kelvin
Marry them sheets on a bed of an Airbnb. Sorry, I'm not.
- [45:42]
Naima Reza
Do you guys, what's the future of credit card points? Are they going to be like crypto where you can trade them digital assets and other people can use.
- [45:49]
Nikki Kelvin
I think they're going to become more and more utility. Like just outside of travel, we're seeing that built just came out. You can use your points now to pay for student loans, to pay for rent, mortgages. So I see like more utility because travel, there's just not enough trout. There's so many points and not enough travel opportunities. So I see more utility and transferability.
- [46:08]
Brian Kelly
You know, and then, and then the game is going to become like making sure you're still getting the best value as these new things come along. Like where are you finding value? Right, because some things, you know the famous example with Avios in the uk, you can use it to buy wine, but like it's bad value.
- [46:22]
Nikki Kelvin
Terrible value.
- [46:22]
Naima Reza
Yeah, terrible value. Okay, yes. You obviously like you gave that caveat at the top of this. Do you worry about promoting kind of credit cards? Do you get a lot of critique about that and push back and see, I actually don't.
- [46:34]
Nikki Kelvin
I Mean because if I'm very clear like just don't get into debt, be smart. And I know your credit score if you play this game goes up. So in the points game you win if you're smart about your credit. And people in the points game care about their credit, know their credit score, know the game, know the rules, pay off their bills in full cuz they're alert and aware of their financial system. So people who follow the points guy are better off in life and get lower mortgage rates because their credit score is higher. And as long as you play the game and I think we're very clear about how to play it safely, you know, I'm not hawking 0% balance transfer, trying to get people in, into debt or hopping around debt like my goal is to get people value and at the end of the day travel, see their family, see their loved ones, go see a sick relative like and that the power points to enable like living a better life. I see it and know it. So I firmly believe what we do is good for people.
- [47:25]
Brian Kelly
I don't, I also don't hear that negativity a lot but when those haters come it's often like coming from a place of like we're forcing people to spend money that they wouldn't otherwise spend. But that's not the thing. It's like go about your life as it is now but fine tune and hone the way that you're spending the cards, you're putting the money on getting the best deals, all this kind of thing. So you're just like doing what you're doing but you're actually getting something back. You're not leaving money, cash points miles on the table.
- [47:49]
Naima Reza
I'm still torn about who ultimately is paying for this, but I totally buy your argument that if you like this is capitalism and consumerism and loyalty entrapment at its American finest. And if you are not using the system, you are paying for the system.
- [48:03]
Brian Kelly
I'll give you a sort of anecdotal example because I can't give you like true facts. It's very hard to tell these things. But in the EU capped interchange fees at north 0.3% and, and what, and what that resulted in was like rewards being given out, a less sign up, bonuses are less. Although at the moment, for example in the UK the Amex Platinum UK card where the referral is 100,000 points which is like pretty big for the UK but that is, that is very rare. But what you haven't seen is this very clear decrease in price to consumers, our shops are not 3 or 4 or 5% cheaper just because this cap on interchange fees, there wasn't a difference, there wasn't a change. And I think you would see the same here. Like there's no way that if interchange fees were capped at 0.3% that suddenly overnight everything in stores, we know it wouldn't happen.
- [48:48]
Nikki Kelvin
They killed debit card rewards for this reason. Let's make inflation, let's make things cheaper with the interchange. But the 95% of retailers kept that for themselves. I would say the system today, the retailers essentially pay for all the points we get. But there's so many, everyone benefits, they get paid. Their employees aren't stealing cash from registers, they can run data. So if you're a smart retailer these days, having people pay with credit cards isn't the worst thing we should, you know, like everyone can kind of win in this.
- [49:13]
Naima Reza
Yeah, I mean the consumer rare gets like the money back unless they like Nikki show up at the small claims court. Maybe they'll get it. But rarely does policy change result in consumers being better off. This doesn't happen in economics very often. Has travel hacking become too mainstream to be effective? I mean Brian, when you started in this business, you're part of this kind of like underground community of people who would trade how to do this, like a Redditor kind of community. Now everybody's hacking travel. Does that mean there's no hacks left?
- [49:41]
Nikki Kelvin
No, I mean, look, when I started the Points Guy in 2010, people said, oh, you're too late to the game, it's over. You know, like people will always naysay I'm an eternal optimist. So I'm of the mindset. There's now more tools and technology and AI tools coming out. You can still win at this game. You just need to be on the forefront earning more than ever before. There's still sweet spots out there, there's still ways to get extraordinary value. But it's more than just the deals themselves. It's a mindset. It's a mindset of let me beat the system and let me just not sit here and complain. It's not easy. There's still a lot of hard hacks to do that are not spoon fed to you. That so? Yes, for those who care, like there's still a lot of. And I'll just say it's not all first class. I have a friend whose mom was sick recently. I was flying him back and forth. Philly to Miami, Philly to Madrid, last minute Coach tickets were $5,000. Alaska Airlines has amazing redemptions on American. It was like, you know, I hope the. Yeah, 17,000 miles and 20 bucks. So like even for last minute coach and I want people to think of miles and points like an insurance policy. Like if you need to get home from somewhere, they gouge you last minute. If you're on Europe, you know, and you need to come home for family things. Being able to burn points last minute is incredible. It's.
- [50:54]
Brian Kelly
You know, I just got stuck in Doha when. And I was really sick. When Heathrow closed, there was like a fire, a substation. Heathrow closed and I did. It's a culmination of these things we're talking about. I didn't wait for anybody to help me. I went straight online. I used my points and I booked a flight to Rome and a flight to Frankfurt and to Amsterdam. Sorry. And then onward flights from there to different London airports. And I just did it. Got it in there and it actually cost me like these cash tickets were, were like thousands. And I got it for. I don't know, I think I paid like.
- [51:23]
Nikki Kelvin
No. Points are not dead.
- [51:25]
Naima Reza
By the way, I really want to give a plug to your book. I love how you talk about multi generational travel in the book. And I think that is one of the nicest things, like taking a trip with a family. And it reminded me reading it, like, oh, I need to do that. Yeah, let's do that more. The last question we ask every guest on the podcast is, what are you dumb about? What's a dumb question you have that we could go out and find for you or hack for you?
- [51:49]
Nikki Kelvin
Nikki, you go first.
- [51:50]
Brian Kelly
Okay. My one. I don't know. It'd be a big. It'd be a lot of work to make this change. But it's something that. Just because I've come to the US Today and it's something which I really struggle with and I don't understand and it blows my mind and no one can explain. Explain it to me. And I don't know if this is the kind of thing you're even after, but why do bathroom stalls in the US A have like, like a door that is like up here and B, a gap where you can see in like I get in search. If I was in like a prison, like maybe. What? But in a jail. But why? And it's consistent like across these United States. And I can't. And I can't bear it. Why is it.
- [52:28]
Naima Reza
Maybe it's like a peeping Tom. That design, that architecture, bathrooms originally.
- [52:32]
Brian Kelly
It's Everywhere. I mean, it's places like at jfk, the airport. It's like the toilet store. It has a gap. And so everyone can see inside.
- [52:37]
Naima Reza
Everyone can see it. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.
- [52:39]
Brian Kelly
The old points guy office also had this, like, gap.
- [52:41]
Naima Reza
It's like, brian, why'd you do that?
- [52:43]
Nikki Kelvin
I know.
- [52:44]
Naima Reza
I'm surprised.
- [52:45]
Nikki Kelvin
I'm sure it has something to do.
- [52:46]
Naima Reza
With, like, safety, ventilation. I don't know. We're gonna find out. I love that question. Why are the door gaps?
- [52:53]
Nikki Kelvin
Mine is, like, kind of for personal reasons. So I'm really excited about supersonic travel, and. And I researched it for my book, and there's a lot of controversy over, like, whether it's going to happen. Like, Boom Supersonic has these test flights. My question for you is, like, in your research, is this actually going to happen? Because I wrote the chapter and I still came across, like, because there's very strong arguments, like, it will never happen, but the boom people are like, absolutely going to happen. That's one of the biggest questions I have in my head, like, are we being trolled?
- [53:24]
Naima Reza
That's actually a good one. I kind of know the answer because we had Cleo Abram, who does Hugh Jeff Tru. A show on YouTube about this, and she had done an episode on Boom Supersonic. It's all about the noise levels. If they can make. And you know this from your book, like, it's all about the noise. But I'm gonna find out the probability of it. I would like the probability.
- [53:41]
Nikki Kelvin
Yeah, me too.
- [53:42]
Naima Reza
All right, thank you guys so much for doing this. Really appreciate it. You can find them at the pointsguy ickycalvin on Instagram, Ryan Kelly on Instagram, and the book is called how to Win at Traffic Travel by Brian Kelly.
- [53:52]
Nikki Kelvin
Thanks for having us. Safe travels.
- [53:54]
Naima Reza
Thank you. Thank you. Wow. That was my first ever intervention. And I'm so glad that Brian and Nikki explained to me that I am the one paying for everybody else's airline miles. I'm the problem. It's me. I am the sucker. Anyways, I'm so glad these guys helped dispel a couple of my travel conspiracies, including the idea idea that kayak is just yo yoing prices, but that there's some day where I would always be better off buying tickets. They did not, however, dispel this idea that the planes are getting bigger, but the seats are getting smaller. Unless you're like Brian and always turning left. Except on the way to the Maldives. I'm very sorry, Brian. And on the subject of airline safety, I take Brian's point on this platinum age of travel. I do. You know, I think he said something like you'd have to travel every day for 104,000 years to have a statistically safe, significant chance of dying. I have seen other reports that it's closer to 10,000 to 15,000 years that you'd have to travel every day. But in either case, that's like 100 to 200 times our life expectancy. So, yeah, a little bit of tomato, tomato. That said, safety is a very binary thing and I understand why people are concerned about it right now. There are these air traffic control issues at Newark Airport, which I fly out of all the time. And I'm actually flying out of there later this week. So I intend to do an episode that is all about airline safety. If you have dumb questions about airline safety, experts, ideas that I could talk to, like, please send them to me, I'd love to hear them. And finally, I just want to take a moment to appreciate that Brian like called the credit card cops on his two year old vandalist and then procured basically a free piece of sentimental artwork in his home. And that Nikki Kelvin is like down in Terminal 5, Basement 5, filing papers in small claims court or whatever. But these two are just an example of how important it is to be scrappy to get what you want. And as someone who's really good at that in my career, but struggles with it when it comes to life admin, I'm so glad to have Brian Kelly and Nikki Kelvin in my corner telling me how to take these millions of points and turn them into tens of thousands of dollars. I ended this episode so much richer than I started. But I hope that you'll keep in mind really, really important. Important that psa they kept saying, which is that if you cannot pay off your credit card in full every month, you should not be taking out new credit cards just to get points or putting dollars on your card to get points. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even if I'm the sucker who's paying for it. That's it for this week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. Catch me next week for an all new episode. Today's show was produced with Claire Lichtenstein, Diana DaCosta and Healy Cruz. Our theme music is by David and I'm your host Naima Raza. If you like this show, leave us a review or better yet, share it and send me all your dumb questions. Naimaraza101gmail.com or in the comments below. See you Next week on Smart Girl, dumb questions.