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Smart Girl Dumb Questions
Is Who You Marry Your Most Important Financial Decision? with Divorce Attorney Jim Sexton
01:20:00
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- [00:01]
A
What are you doing on Tuesday, May 26, if you're in New York City, you should come to the Comedy Cellar for a live taping of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. You can grab ticks in the show notes below, but we're gonna have a wild conversation about how to spot a lessons in fraudsters, Fabulous and fakes. My guest is Patrick Radden Keefe, a New Yorker staff writer and best selling author who's traveled the globe exploring bad behavior from the billionaire class to the people who hope to break into it. Join us for wacky stories, wit and wondering why El Chapo's team wanted this dude to write his memoir. He didn't do it, by the way. Grab your tickets in the show notes below. I think no one sees the insides of people's bank accounts and finances the way a divorce lawyer does.
- [00:43]
B
That is true. That is true. And I have to tell you, you know, I wish I knew. No astronomy. When the stars appear like you, you start to see like the real raw version of people's finances and you realize like, you don't know who has money and doesn't really. And then the people that have money, when you get to the space that I presently represent, people in just very, very respectable. The amount of money is shocking. Like their. Their money makes more money in a day than I make in a year. And I make a lot of money.
- [01:14]
A
They say that marriage is the most important financial decision you will make in your life. True or false?
- [01:20]
B
I think that's true. I'm not really prone to superlatives and I'm. I'm vaguely allergic to hyperbole. So I made. What I would say is I cannot imagine a scenario where who you marry does not have massive impact on your financial life. And I think most of the very intelligent people with money, including Warren Buffett, all say that the most important financial decision they made was their choice of spouse.
- [01:46]
A
By the way, they say you should always take a second date. Jim, do you agree?
- [01:49]
B
You know I agree. And I will say what you'll learn of men, if you haven't already, is that as we get older, we need a little time between round one and round two.
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A
Oh, really? Why is that?
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B
Yeah, I don't know. It's just the refractory period gets longer, that's all it is. So I just need. Needed a little time before we could go again.
- [02:07]
A
Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. I'm Nae Maraza. This is Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. And today I'm on my second date with James Sexton, Esquire, the killer divorce Attorney. Hi, Jim. How are you?
- [02:19]
B
I was honored to have a second date. I really didn't know if I'd make. Because the first date, you always have Spanx on your personality. Is this going well? And I thought it was going well, but this is a real validation.
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A
And now you're back. I'm so excited.
- [02:31]
B
That's great. I'm excited.
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A
It is my first episode of the Smart Girl Dumb Questions, Smart Money series.
- [02:36]
B
Oh.
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A
Brought to you by Time. But I thought a lot about our last conversation because you said, you know, marriage is a technology. And you asked me, like, what is
- [02:44]
B
the problem to which marriage is a solution?
- [02:45]
A
This is the solution. And I felt like I didn't do a good job of articulating then, but I was thinking about why marriage exists. Sure, it's religion and all these things, but it's also because financial security, as women are pregnant and having children, like, presumably having that tie in, that I'm going to take this big decision with my life and put my life at risk was that women were dying at record rates, like in childbirth at the time, like, that this was a good thing to do.
- [03:10]
B
That there is a school of thought that says that love is an economy based on resource scarcity.
- [03:16]
A
I think the idea of sharing your financial and administrative burden with another human seems really lovely. I mean, tell me why I'm wrong.
- [03:24]
B
I don't want to sound like the Unabomber, but, you know, if you read Industrial Society, Society and its Future.
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A
Yeah.
- [03:32]
B
What he was essentially saying is that the admin. Burden is almost nothing now because really, the majority of our. Of our existence as a species, the majority of our time was spent trying to survive. Like trying to. To. To obtain food, sufficient calories to make it through the day, and to have our offspring survive. And now that is incredibly easy, whatever your socioeconomic level. And now we have to create what he called surrogate activities, like things to get very caught up in and make very important that aren't necessarily important to your survival. And we've created these very complex systems that, you know, that engage us in different ways of, you know, building capital. And so I think I would argue that when marriage was created, the administrative load, if you want to call it that, of like, how am I going to make it through the day? Like, what are we going to eat? Like, we have to work a farm. Let's have kids so the kids can help with the farm.
- [04:35]
A
You're making the affordability crisis seem really small compared to what was going on.
- [04:38]
B
Well, because again, I guess because I'm in the currency of working with clients. And I have to say to them all the time, there's three things. There's what you need, there's what you want, and there's what you're entitled to. Most of us are going to get what we need. Food, shelter, safety, what we want. There could be no limit to what you want. So what you want is usually informed by that third thing, which is, what am I entitled to? So I think our sense of what should we want? Because what are we entitled to? Has dramatically changed and is so far and untethered from our needs that now we think our needs are as a much bigger set than it ever was.
- [05:12]
A
I agree. You're gonna like this. We talked about our parents last time. We told a beautiful story of your mom as well. But my dad, the one rule in raising me, he would say, I'm never gonna say no to you, but don't ask me for something you do not deserve.
- [05:23]
B
I love that I have to tell you. From all the stories you've now told me about your dad, both in our conversation and some of the other ones you've had with people, I great regret of my life is that I didn't get to meet your dad. He seems like such a compelling character.
- [05:37]
A
Oh, you know what? He was good. So back to the money. Yeah, the money.
- [05:41]
B
Show me the money.
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A
You are the coroner. You get the autopsy report of a marriage, of a person's finances, of two people's finances.
- [05:48]
B
Yeah, the autopsy. Really?
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A
What is the wildest thing you found when you looked under the H of a marriage or relationship?
- [05:54]
B
I'm still shocked by how leveraged people are. Like, how, how much debt people are in. Even very wealthy people maintain a debt structure that doesn't, to me, make a lot of sense. I'm sure that there are a lot of very intelligent finance people that will say I'm an idiot for the opportunity
- [06:10]
A
cost of that money.
- [06:10]
B
Yeah, like, I've never, I've never paid a penny of interest on a credit card in my life. Like, I, I grew up with the sense of, okay, we're broke, so you can't buy something if you don't have the money. And don't buy, borrow it, because now you're going to pay for borrowing that money. But I certainly now understand, like, and my financial advisors laugh at me all the time because I'm like, oh, well, why don't I pay? And they're like, because the rate of return you're getting is higher than the interest. But I have some clients that I'M just shocked at the level of debt that they have. I'm also shocked at the burn rate that people establish for themselves. Like, I have a client who his koi pond costs $100,000 a month to maintain. And I mean, when you're. When the hundred thousand dollars a month, the amount of your outdoor goldfish is greater than the combined family income in the United States, and his koi pond is 100,000amonth.
- [07:01]
A
Must be nice to be that koi fish.
- [07:03]
B
I just don't know that that level of commitment to the koi is prudent. The judge actually made a joke about, like, we'll just make him into sushi if we have to.
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A
Oh, that's kind of mean.
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B
Judges are supposed to be a little mean. Yeah.
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A
How do you even figure out, like, what the money situation is when you look at all this admin paperwork stuff?
- [07:21]
B
So I first break it down to three concepts. Identification, valuation, distribution. Like, if you're a coroner, the body of the president, the body of unhoused person are exactly the same. Like, it's a body. It's just meat. Like, and it's. Right, it's just, it's just meat. So for me, whether I'm representing a billionaire or whether I'm representing a cop and a teacher, you know, W2 wage earners, it's the exact same process. Identification, valuation, distribution. So identification is what's here. Like, what do they have, what assets, what liabilities, what form are they held in? Yeah, you know, is it in trust? Is it in LLCs? As I get to represent wealthier and wealthier people, what you start to realize is that wealthy people don't own a lot. Wealthy people have an interest in a Trust that owns LLCs, that owns properties. And then they use intentionally defective grantor trust to pay the expenses of this generation skipping trust. So effectively they pay no taxes. And these are all legal, legitimate wealth preservation tax avoidance strategies that people engage in not thinking they're going to get divorced. And then when they get divorced, these create an absolute fucking mess.
- [08:27]
A
I'm sure they get weaponized. I'm sure they're like 100%. I'm sure there are people who say, well, he has been avoiding, or she's been avoiding taxes 100%.
- [08:34]
B
And I know where the although what you're then identifying is a marital liability that you'll be on the hook for or that he's on the hook for, which then diminishes the marital estate. So that's not a great idea. But what people do is they all attribute, you know, nefarious intention to the other side. So they'll say, well, he put all these things in trust so they'd be out of the reach of the court. And you're like, he did that 10 years before you guys got divorced in two years before you had a bunch of your kids. Like that doesn't. Boy, he's a really good planner. You know, for someone who got caught sleeping with his secretary, like, he's a really good planner, you know, so it turns into something where again, it's full context, storytelling, it's all about the narrative. But a lot of what I do, whether I'm representing, you know, again, like mom and pop, or whether I'm representing the ultra wealthy, it's identification of assets. And then valuation is tricky because, for example, again, if you're a W2 wage earner, it's simple. But if you're someone who owns your own business, you have the ability to minimize or maximize income. If you're an artist or a musician or I represent a lot of athletes, NFL players, their career is front loaded. They make potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in a three or four year sp and then they have no real earning capacity in the future. Whereas if you're a partner at a law firm making millions, it's only going to go up. If you're a partner, Goldman, it's only going to go up every year. Each individual financial profile is unique and because of that, you can weaponize trends, you can maximize like plausible deniability on things that were in fact nefarious. It gives me a really broad palette to paint with. As a storyteller, I think most people
- [10:04]
A
listening are like thinking like, how do I become that? How do I progress in my own finances to like become rich enough that I even could think about doing these things?
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B
Because that's a good problem out of
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A
reach, I guess for a lot of people.
- [10:14]
B
Like the most common answer in the United States to that would be pick your grandparents carefully, you know, because a lot of my clients made their money the old fashioned way. Their great grandfather died.
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A
The Nepo baby is.
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B
Yeah. So a lot of like Manhattan money is real estate. And real estate, like their great grandfather bought the building for $10,000 and now it's worth $100 million.
- [10:35]
A
Yes. There's stuff in your agency that you can do, you're not going to get, you're not going to accumulate blah, probably.
- [10:40]
B
But like, I mean, look, I represent a lot of people that when they got married or when they met their spouse, they were eating A lot of ramen noodles and pancakes, and now they're worth tens of millions of dollars or hundreds.
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A
And that's like the journey people are interested in. It's like, you make a couple hundred K. How do I go to making a million? How do I build up wealth?
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B
I mean, what I will say from personal and professional experience is the first million is the hardest, really. It's a lot harder to turn $0 into a million dollars than it is to turn a million dollars into 10.
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A
And it's funny what's impactful. I remember Mark Cuban said, I asked him, how did your first million change your life? He said, actually, the hundred thousand was really what moved him. And he remembered, interesting. Going to the atm, like, seeing the balance and like, thinking of his dad and being. I think his dad was with him and cried and like, because he didn't ever imagine he could have $100,000 in a bank account.
- [11:25]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's always symbolic. You know, I've always said that there's only two amounts of money. Enough and not enough.
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A
Yeah, most people are in capital and
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B
everybody's definitions are different.
- [11:34]
A
But what is a money fight you've seen destroy relationships?
- [11:36]
B
People fight about their risk adversity when it comes to finances. People very often have very differing tolerances for risk when it comes to finances.
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A
So leverage, for example.
- [11:45]
B
Yeah, leverage is a piece investments. Anytime in a marriage or divorce, there's an unfalsifiable premise at play. It's tricky because I often say, like, the truth is at the bottom of a bottomless pit. And so sometimes it's very convenient for people when they're rewriting the history of their relationship. It's very tempting I, to, you know, to, to. To say, well, I always said that was a bad investment or, well, I was always supportive of that investment. When it's like, the record doesn't really reflect that. And sometimes in a marriage, you know, people aren't documenting things the way they do in, like, civil litigation between business people.
- [12:23]
A
Hopefully not that you don't want me in that marriage.
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B
I mean, there is more. So with text messages now, like, we do see a lot. And with social media, people are telling on themselves more than they used to. But yeah, I mean, people don't document, like, paper the hell out of the relationship.
- [12:37]
A
What you're saying is like, someone's like, oh, I invested x. And then 10 years later she's like, he should have never have done that because it was terrible.
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B
I've had bitcoin, you know, divorces, like, I Had people who.
- [12:47]
A
Crypto king divorces. You've done that?
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B
I've done a lot of crypto divorces. Crypto is becoming an increasingly interesting space for divorce lawyers. There's so much volatility there that it also gets very tricky.
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A
Okay, glass half full question. What is a money habit that keeps people together? Like, if they have this shared habit?
- [13:04]
B
I think it's actually going to sound cliche, but I think good communication about money is good. I think understanding that money is often a metaphor for something underneath it. Like, money is about safety, money is about priorities. Money is about how much respect you have for the other person and how you involve them. Money is also something that we're raised to. It's like sex. We're born into an ecosystem where there's a lot of complex factors that shape the manner in which we relate to this thing. So it's not just about, like, what do you feel about sex? It's what did your parents feel about sex and what did they make the ecosystem of your home and the discourse about it? Like, my mom was a nurse and my mom was also very feminist. So, you know, I did not have the opportunity to ever like, be the typical man that's like women's periods. Like, it was like, you only exist because women menstruate. Shut your mouth. You know, like. And so at the age of like 7, I knew what fallopian tubes were. I think there's a lot of 40 year old men that don't know what that is. They were like, is that in your ear? When you grow up in a particular ecosystem? If money is something that. Oh God, money. Like, we're gonna, are we gonna be okay? Like, and just don't talk about it. Like, let's not look at what anything costs. Or if you grow up in an ecosystem where everything you purchase. How much was that? When did you get it? Do you need to get new shoes? What's wrong with your old shoes? It's a different ecosystem. And, and so you're not fighting with this person, you're fighting with their dad or their uncle or their mom or the school teacher that taught them about economics. Like, so, like, it's not this person. And there, there, there's often either a desire to defend the beliefs that you were raised with or to rebel against. You sound like my dad right now. What do you mean? Well, you're not in charge of what shoes I get. Like, you're not. Because it really is that, you know, you're dealing with all that emotionally charged stuff. And I Think that a habit that couples can really with all of it. Sex with money, all the big things,
- [15:04]
A
all the intimate things.
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B
Yeah, all the intimate things. Exactly. That require some transparency and that are a little scary sometimes to talk about. You might feel vulnerable when you bring them up. I think there's something really great about being able to talk about what's emotionally charged. And by the way, it's a great invitation to, like, connecting. Like, if you and I wanted to connect on this, our second date, if we wanted to connect deeply, if we talked about, like, oh, what was your dad like with money? What was your mom like when it came to money? How was it different? How is it the same? What impact has it had on you? Do you carry those lessons forward or have you rebelled against it? Like, we learn a lot about not only each other, but about our. Our family and where we fit in that, like, timeline. Like, it's such an invitation.
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A
That is the best way to talk about money, to learn about how money was in the home. It's so much more illuminating. We can talk about that in a way that we're outside of ourselves a little bit.
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B
I also think there's so many, like, invitations to those kinds of conversations. Now I will share with you an intimacy. My secret addiction is I like watching Love on the Spectrum and Temptation Island.
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A
Oh, I knew about number one, but
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B
number two, banger new seasons.
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A
I know.
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B
I mean, but Temptation, I like, I'm love on the Spectrum. You can say, oh, I love Love on the Spectrum. I have before to you. And I'm very proud of that. Because it seems. Still seems like, oh, yeah, that's fine. Of course it's a beautiful show. But Temptation island, like, you feel a little icky. Like, you'd be like, oh, no, I was just watching porn. It wasn't Temptation Island.
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A
It was just pornography into what makes you.
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B
But I love Temptation island because it is such a raw look at just people behaving terribly with each other. You take these couples, and then they put the men and the women. They separate them, and they put the men with, like, 20 gorgeous women. And their job is to, like, do you stay fidelitous or do you not? And of course, it's, like, gamed up so that they're engaging in, like, games that kind of bring people closer and they go on dates. But eventually what happens is there's an arms race where, like, a woman will see him, and they're like, oh, well, why was he laughing at her joke? And then, like, she'll flirt with another guy much more Overtly and then they'll show that to him and everybody just starts escalating and they all feel like the permission of their own conscience to do it. The reason I bring up this show was not just to out myself as someone who watches it and engages in trash tv. All of those shows, the Bachelor, Temptation Island, Love is Blind. Any of those are such an invitation for a couple to have conversations about themselves at a safe distance. Because I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about her on the screen. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about him. And it gives you this ability. So when you talk about as a couple, well, what was your. You know, what are some things your dad did about money that you think are like you're glad you learned from him. That's really a conversation about us.
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A
Yes. I would invite you to role play and talk about our parents financials, but
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B
we'll leave that forever and end up crying.
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A
Exactly. We need a therapist in the house for that. We're not going to watch Temptation Island. Don't get excited.
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B
Darn it.
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A
But I do want to play a game where we watch something.
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B
Let's do it. Yeah, I'm in. You always have the coolest games with the red flag, green flag, all the cool stuff.
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A
We're going to do that too. I love that you love a pad.
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B
That was one of my favorite. I do. I love props.
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A
So we're going to watch some movie scenes. You the rom com critic.
- [18:11]
B
I've probably seen the movies.
- [18:13]
A
I would love to see your letterboxd. Okay, so I'm going to actually ask you to hold it down so you can see it more. So the first one is the scene from the movie Materialist. Have you seen it?
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B
I have not, but it looks quite good and everyone in it is very good looking. So I would not mind watching it.
- [18:26]
A
I know you're usually in charge, but I'm gonna tell you what to do for a second. So I'll set the stage. This is Dakota Johnson's character is leaving a car. She stepped out in traffic because her boyfriend doesn't wanna pay the parking for the expensive dinner that they're gonna have.
- [18:41]
B
I think she's seen.
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A
Okay, perfect. So let's hit play. I don't want to hate you because you're poor, but right now I do. And it makes me hate myself.
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B
You know how hard it is to make you happy and I want you to be happy. I'm trying. I really am. I know.
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A
And it's almost enough to make me Happy? I wish that I didn't care if we ate from a halal cart on our five year anniversary, but I do. And however much you hate me, I promise I hate myself more.
- [19:12]
B
I don't hate you.
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A
You do. And it's not because we're not in love. It's because we're broke. Okay, hit pause.
- [19:22]
B
So first of all, it's a great scene. It's a powerful scene.
- [19:24]
A
The writing is so bad. Sorry.
- [19:26]
B
I think that the idea behind it is a really good idea because I think I like the honesty of what Dakota Johnson's character is saying, which is I feel this way. I don't like that I feel this way. I'm actually mad at myself for feeling this way. And I think that there's something very honest about that. So much of the stuff that happens in my office or that I hear about in my office that has brought people to my office, they don't know why they felt what they felt. And they're so mad at themselves. Like, I don't know why I cheated. I don't know. I don't know why I got dissatisfied with our relationship. I don't know why I didn't tell you A, B and C. And we're a mystery to ourselves in that way.
- [20:05]
A
So at the end of each of these clips, I want you to also tell me a prediction which is, are they gonna make it or not?
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B
I would say from that very small snippet and I don't know the rest of the film. The level of candor between the two of them is very powerful and probably bodes well. I think that she's admitting something she doesn't understand about herself, but that's honest. And she's telling him something that's uncomfortable but true. And his response to it is not, you suck. Him saying, I don't hate you. What you're saying hurts to hear, but I don't hate you because I think he gets it. We're struggling. Like anyone who's ever been poor would never romanticize being poor. It's awful. Like, it's awful. Like I remember viscerally the feeling of, okay, I've got this much money left, I'm gonna have to like eat. Or I can put gas in my car. And I need gas in my car to get to work. So I'm gonna have to figure out something to eat. And thank God I worked in restaurants. Cause I would eat like the, like saltine cracker and the pickle sauce, whatever I could get. So I think for this it's the same thing. It's this. A couple that can have uncomfortable con and not vilify each other's feelings. I think it bodes well.
- [21:15]
A
I remember that scene from watching the film, but watching it now, I'm like, girl, you would have swiped left on the mayor of New York. You don't like halal carts. And halal carts are amazing cast on Gracie Mansion.
- [21:25]
B
I still, I can afford to eat any place I want in this city and I still fuck with a halal cart. We love the halal cart over the salad. Mm.
- [21:34]
A
So this next one.
- [21:35]
B
All right. Paul Rudd.
- [21:36]
A
Paul Rudd. So this is clip two. This is from the film. This is 40 your man, Paul Ruddy. So Leslie Mann's character and Paul Rudd's character are arguing.
- [21:44]
B
They do a lot of that.
- [21:45]
A
Yes.
- [21:47]
B
Sometimes I withhold truth. That is true. But it's only because I'm scared to death of your crazy ass illogical overreactions.
- [21:57]
A
Well, it hurts me inside and triggers me when you're such a dishonest shit that you're lending your father money without telling me while your record company's going to bankrupt and we're on the verge of losing our fucking house. You know how that movie ends?
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B
I do.
- [22:16]
A
How does it end?
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B
They figure it out.
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A
They figured out.
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B
Yeah, they figured out.
- [22:19]
A
So, okay, spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen this 10 year old film.
- [22:21]
B
Yeah, he's ruining it for people.
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A
Materialist was healthy communication. Is this healthy communication?
- [22:25]
B
I think this is less healthy communication because his fundamental premise is the opposite of the materialist concept, which is he's saying, I intentionally withhold information from you that I know would upset you because it will upset you. And I'm so concerned about your upset. And I find your reaction. I mean, he says it much less eloquently, but he says, like, you overreact to things in a manner that disincentivizes me telling you the truth. And then what she's basically saying is right. And I know you lie to me or withhold important truths, which is why I'm so distrustful you. Which is a very chicken or the egg sort of a thing happening between these two people.
- [23:00]
A
Jim, I only want to watch movies with you now.
- [23:02]
B
I know. It's fun, it's good.
- [23:04]
A
You just like decode it.
- [23:05]
B
Actually, it shuts me up for a while too.
- [23:07]
A
No way. It's not that. I was like. That is a perfect translation of what just happened. Yeah.
- [23:12]
B
And I think that's actually much more common. Like, what's. What makes the writing of that first scene so bad is that real people don't talk that way. Like, real people don't interact that way. What's funny about this, and it's a subtext of the film itself, is that they're in couples counseling, and they're encouraged in couples counseling to use, like, I statements. And so it's funny because they're weaponizing,
- [23:35]
A
you know, like, everything is.
- [23:36]
B
I feel. It's like, okay, I feel like when you're an asshole, I have to, like, I feel. It feels to me that you are the most loathsome harpy ever to castrate a man.
- [23:48]
A
I could hear that. And also the way she says, well, it's like that pause.
- [23:53]
B
Those are two phenomenal actors. And it's probably an incredibly relatable scene for a lot of couples, because I think that issue even take the gender out of it. The conflict avoidant individual who would rather tell you a comfortable lie than an uncomfortable truth, and the other person who is now saying, I don't know what to trust you with.
- [24:14]
A
Yeah, I can't trust you.
- [24:15]
B
But also isn't conceding the reality that, yeah, when you tell me the truth, I lose my shit.
- [24:22]
A
Yes.
- [24:23]
B
And therefore it's understandable that you'd be afraid of. This comes up in the context of infidelity all the time. Because I'll have particularly. Women will say to me, you know, like, if he had told me he was dissatisfied in our sex life, I, you know, and I'm like, you would have what? Finish that sentence. You would have explained to him why he's wrong for feeling that way.
- [24:43]
A
Yeah.
- [24:43]
B
Or you would have gotten mad at him. Like, you're telling me, if he said, listen, I'm. I don't know why, but I'm starting to have, like, kind of a wandering eye. Like. And, like, suddenly I'm finding myself, like, being more flirtatious and. And I don't want to be because we made an agreement that we were going to be just that for each other. But there's something in me, this restlessness, I don't completely understand that you would go, well, that must have been really hard to share with me. And, like, thank you for that. And look, I want to be your only partner, so I want to try to meet your needs to the extent that I can't. Like, no fucking way. You would have lost your mind.
- [25:13]
A
I would sound like Leslie.
- [25:14]
B
But in retrospect, when you rewrite the history of your relationship, you're like, well, he could have just told me. And it's like, no, he couldn't have.
- [25:20]
A
That's the. The secrets. Secrets. And there's a lot of that with money. Okay, so here's the third scene. It's from Sex and the City. Oh, it's our penultimate scene.
- [25:27]
B
I watched a lot of Sex in the City.
- [25:29]
A
Okay, so you know this.
- [25:30]
B
Oh, I know all the characters.
- [25:31]
A
Miranda Pre being a lesbian.
- [25:34]
B
Yeah.
- [25:34]
A
This is the good sex in the City, not the bad Sex in the City.
- [25:36]
B
I refuse that. The timeline ended.
- [25:40]
A
Yes.
- [25:40]
B
When the show ended. I don't even acknowledge the films. I don't even acknowledge the films.
- [25:44]
A
You haven't been to Abu Dhabi.
- [25:45]
B
I don't acknowledge the film. I watched the first two of them. I don't acknowledge them.
- [25:50]
A
Miranda and Steve are out suit shopping for an event. You know the scene?
- [25:54]
B
I think I remember.
- [25:55]
A
Okay.
- [25:56]
B
Jesus. 1800 bucks. I guess I better not spill anything.
- [26:04]
A
Don't worry, it's my treat.
- [26:07]
B
What?
- [26:08]
A
I invited you to this thing. I want to pay for the suit.
- [26:10]
B
No way. You're not buying me a suit suit.
- [26:19]
A
But I wanted to do this for you.
- [26:22]
B
Then I start to think of you like my mother. And that can get a little weird for me. Sorry, sir, it was declined. Would you like to try another one?
- [26:30]
A
Why don't you try one of mine?
- [26:32]
B
No, no, no. All right, how about this? Let's try 800 on the card. I'll write you a check for 1000 and I'll give you the rest in cash.
- [26:39]
A
Steve, forget it. It's too expensive. No.
- [26:41]
B
Would you just let me buy the suit? I knew that relationship would not work out. I would say that for sure. But I think that scene is a very relatable scene in the gender dynamic of men and women. And I think in the modern age, I think it's an increasingly more common one. I've seen a tremendous number of divorces when a man loses his job, not because he lost his job and now she just bails on him, but because of the second order effects that happen when a man loses his job and feels emasculated and feels like his destiny is out of his control and he's not a good provider anymore. Particularly if he's married to someone who is. Who she's doing well financially. I've represented celebrities who are married to other celebrities and they're. When they started the relationship, they were either in roughly equal position or the man was more successful. And then the woman, her star goes on the rise and his starts to wane a bit and. And so the person goes from being like the star to being the plus one, the and more. And that puts a lot of strain on a relationship. And I think that, you know, there's gender stuff in there about the man wanting to be the provider. I think a helplessness that someone feels when they're in a different economic cast as someone else. And there's this feeling that, like, I can't kind of run with you and so, like, you're gonna think less of me. Like, Miranda's a partner in a successful law firm. So she's surrounded by men who have an abund of very nice, expensive suits. And he feels like, how I can't compete with that.
- [28:10]
A
I was surprised how she pushes beyond his saying, because then it'd be like my mother. And then the fact that she's still, like, trying to.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah, but I think. I think one of the things that made her character compelling throughout the show is that she was, you know, like, I. I don't think she had ill intention ever. I think she, like, was successful and constantly felt like she had to apologize for being successful. Although she was not my favorite character by far.
- [28:33]
A
I find Miranda. I didn't. I love the character, except for the time when she ate the cake out of the trash. Do you remember this? Like, she had, like, a cake and
- [28:39]
B
she was at the. That was real.
- [28:40]
A
That seems so real.
- [28:41]
B
It was very real. I was like, that hate all of us.
- [28:44]
A
It made me like her so much. But this scene. This is a tough scene.
- [28:47]
B
This scene for me, though, I think that to give her some grace, I think she was just excited to do something for him. One of the things I liked about Miranda as a character was that she was constantly, like, on this gender line. That was tricky because she was hard charging and, like, she wasn't the most feminine of the. She was the least, like, traditionally feminine. And yet she had a lot of very feminine traits. Like, she really wanted to be one of the girls and was one of the girls, but she was constantly banging into things. This is an example of that. Like, she wanted to do something nice for him. And, like, she's very successful. And she had the attitude about money that I have, which is like, hey, what am I gonna buy with my money? That would be better than making someone I love happy. But I think for him as a man, the thought of, like a. I want to be the provider. And he was a very old school, traditional character. Right. And then also there had to be some piece of, you know, like, you're with all of these men that wear nice suits and they can buy them for themselves.
- [29:52]
A
Yes.
- [29:53]
B
And I can't. And by the way, like, do you want me in a suit? Cause that's what you want.
- [29:57]
A
Or do you want me or do you want me? It doesn't affect the whole thing because
- [30:00]
B
Steve is not a guy you'd ever see in a suit. And by the way, looks great in the suit.
- [30:03]
A
Last one we're gonna see.
- [30:05]
B
I never cheated on you.
- [30:06]
A
What was cheating on me.
- [30:08]
B
But there's so much I could have done. I was a director in my 20s who came from nothing and was suddenly on the COVID of fucking timeout New York. I was hot shit and I wanted to fuck everybody. And I didn't. And I loved you and I didn't want to lose you. But I'm in my 20s and I didn't want to lose that too. And I kind of did. And you wanted so much so fast, I didn't even want to get married. Fuck it. There's so much I didn't do. By the way, the fact that that's called a marriage story.
- [30:38]
A
Yeah.
- [30:38]
B
Is insane. It should be called a divorce story. Like, I watched it and I remember I had Covid and watched it. I was just stuck at home and I was like, oh, yeah, people are talking about this. And I like looking at Scarlett Johansson and Adam Driver. They're both really good looking people. So I'm like, let me watch this. And halfway through it I was like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm at work. This is terrible. This is like, awful. You know, thoroughly depressing. They definitely needed to get divorced.
- [31:03]
A
Okay, so we know where they're headed.
- [31:04]
B
We know where they're headed. Or else there was no movie. But yeah, I mean, look, I think in that. What is that scene? That scene is an eruption of things left unsaid and resentments that have built up over an extended period of time and now just blow up. I actually think it's a beautiful scene because it's so. It turns into such an eruption that it actually brings out in her something very sympathetic to him and she ultimately like, kind of embraces him because he says the most horrible things. But it's what happens when two people who have a long emotional history with each other and a long personal history with each other don't share openly throughout the process and tell each other what you know they want to hear. It's more. That scene in that clip is more about what you withhold than what you've shared.
- [31:57]
A
Yeah.
- [31:57]
B
And the effect that that can have. It becomes a cancer that grows and grows and grows. And it's like pushing a balloon underwater, eventually it's gotta pop back up.
- [32:07]
A
How does like, money show up in terms of like the success rates in marriage? In terms of, you know, they always say, like, people with college degrees or people with.
- [32:13]
B
Yeah, people have a much lower divorce rate than people without college degrees, which is unfortunate because the majority of Americans don't have college degrees. So it bodes poorly for the success of marriage. It's why I also challenge a lot of my right wing friends who get very caught up in the ide of like, no fault divorce and things like that. And I would say to them, you know, if you really cared that much about marriage, you would do something about economic inequality, like wealth insecurity, because. Right. It's. You know, I hate to sound like there is no war, but the class war, but I keep sort of coming back to that because I think fundamentally, if you really care about marriage, you're going to create economic conditions where people are going to do better with their marriages. And that is people who are economically stable do better in marriage. Once you get past a certain level of, of wealth, it actually starts to spike the divorce rate. Because again though, the question that interests me is when people are middle class or slightly like upper class, but not wealthy.
- [33:09]
A
Yeah.
- [33:09]
B
Most people, or many, they can afford their lifestyle. They can't afford to cut their life in half and then still afford the lifestyle. So that creates a tremendous, like, nothing unites like a common enemy. And so if two people are like, okay, I'm unhappy, but am I so unhappy that I want to give up having a house, you know, and have
- [33:30]
A
to stay together under duress, Stay together
- [33:32]
B
and just go, well, look, we don't. Whereas if you have so much money. Yeah, like, divorce gets a lot easier.
- [33:37]
A
Liberation.
- [33:38]
B
Because people just go, like, all right, I'll buy another house in the Hamptons, or I'll keep this one and buy her one. Like, whatever. I'm just gonna get myself an apartment in the same building on a different floor.
- [33:46]
A
What is something that we should do in our own finances before we enter into a partnership with someone else? Because we'll get into later, like couples. And you. What you said to me last time that you, me and we.
- [33:56]
B
I would say something you should do individually is have what I would call a naked lunch. Like, where you really look at what's at the end of your fork. Like, like the most dangerous lies in relationship are the lies.
- [34:07]
A
The image in my head is so fucked up right now. I'm just imagining a naked person looking
- [34:12]
B
at a fork, looking at the end of their fork.
- [34:13]
A
Okay.
- [34:14]
B
I mean, listen, whatever the metaphor does for you, that's fine. You know, it tells more about you than Mersch. It says more about you. It's a Rorschach test of sorts.
- [34:20]
A
Exactly.
- [34:21]
B
I think. I think what happens economically is the most dangerous lies are the lies we tell ourselves. And so I think looking at your finances honestly, like, most people don't want to look at a. Like, make a budget for the same reason they don't want to have an annual physical. They're like, I don't want to know. Like, I know they're going to tell me a bunch of stuff I really don't want to hear. I get it. But I think one of the best things you can do when it comes to money is when you're not in relationship is have an honest conversation with yourself about, okay, what are my economic realities? What are my economic prospects in a real way? Like, we're not all gonna get to do the thing we love and make a lot of money at it. The world could not have that many baseball players in ballerina. So we're all gonna have to either lean to our competencies and hope that they're profitable, or we're gonna chase money, and maybe we might not enjoy what we do as much. Like, not everybody get benefit of being able to, like, I do something I love, and I make a lot of money at it. And then you have to prioritize. What does that create for me in terms of partners? Like, should I be careful about having a partner who, you know? Because, again, if I meet someone and I go, oh, well, I'm very into, like, you know, chasing money. They're very into chasing money. Right. But they want to have a family.
- [35:42]
A
Yeah.
- [35:43]
B
So then that's going to change the dynamic. And by the way, like, even if it doesn't, if you both stay fully focused on your careers, okay, so then now your. Your children are going to be raised by a third. So I just think the more you're honest with yourself about what do you need? What do you want? That's going to be really important. Same thing. I've said the same thing about sex a million times, which is just. I think most problems in marriage stem from we don't know what we want. And to the extent we know, we don't know how to express it to the other person.
- [36:12]
A
For sex, too, you can have a naked lunch. And look, at the end of a
- [36:14]
B
law, you can, in fact, have naked lunch. And that might be a good way to keep the marriage Together, kind of
- [36:18]
A
non sequitur, but kind of sequitur. It's like, should we all have wills before we partner up?
- [36:22]
B
I always tell people that. That whenever. Some. Because people ask me quite often, like, oh, when should I get a will? And I always tell them early and often.
- [36:29]
A
Okay, early and often.
- [36:30]
B
Like, early and often. Like, for early on in your life, get a will or have a will done. It's very easy to do. There's actually a lot of great online services now. If you're worth Less than $10 million, you don't have to really worry about a lot of the tax stuff, and you can just use any of the resources online or, you know, again, remember that you can do this as often as you want. You can redo your estate planning every couple of years, and that's a smart thing to do. I even said the same thing about prenups. When people do prenups, I often say to them, listen, this is legally binding. In 20 years from now, it'll still be legally binding, but there's no reason why the two of you can't redo this in a couple of years and change the entitlements or if kids show up. Okay, now we're going to change some things.
- [37:07]
A
I'm totally going to do that because I think it's a good forcing mechanism. For the naked lunch. Now I'm seeing the Rorschach task was like, I don't want to have the naked lunch. On the finances. It's like doing the will.
- [37:16]
B
Yeah. It's uncomfortable.
- [37:17]
A
Yeah.
- [37:18]
B
And so I think when. Whenever you want to know what's the best thing to do, I'm like, well, what would make you uncomfortable?
- [37:24]
A
I kind of know, but it's like actually organizing everything, like, all the things, putting them and just. It's like. It's just annoying.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah. You can put this whole podcast together. You can put that together.
- [37:31]
A
Yeah, it's true.
- [37:32]
B
But you're looking forward to this. You're not looking forward to that, and I don't blame you. It's not fun.
- [37:36]
A
It's not as fun.
- [37:37]
B
But the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing. And it's true about this as well. Like, the hard thing to do is to, like, look honestly at your finances and your reality and what it is you want or need. And I think that if you. If you have that honest conversation, it's hard. But, man, I think it's the best thing to do.
- [37:55]
A
Okay, we're take a quick break, but don't go away because this is also about money Is a honeymoon worth more than a ring? It turns out a lot of people now think so. And by the way, this is a sponsored Dumb question brought to you by Chime. Chime is the most rewarding way to bank it's fee free with 5% cash back, high yield savings and perks on everyday purchases. But an engagement ring is not an everyday purchase. In fact, recently they did this survey and found that 74% of couples would rather start married life debt free than splurge on a ring. Which by the way, means that some people would go into debt for a ring. Probably because we live in a culture where we keep seeing this on our phones and social media. This is not a real ring and it's definitely not an engagement ring. But what's wild is that the same survey found that one third of people couldn't quite remember or weren't sure what they or their partner had paid for said ring. Gen Z is especially over this. They're going lab grown, they're thrifting and even getting matching finger tattoos, which is maybe the only thing that's harder to undo than a prenup. And here's where their money is going. Experiences, Travel, the honeymoon, the future. Which if I'm being honest, sounds a lot more romantic than a rock and a velvet box. But whatever you're spending on, enter Chime. With Chime prime, you get travel perks like some schmancy airport lounge access for that honeymoon, a 24.7Travel Concierge included with your card. Plus it's rewarding up to 5% cash back in a category of your choice, and high yield savings that grow for you in case you want to buy that ring or something else. So whether you're saving for a ring, a honeymoon, or like me, just trying to be a smart single girl with her financial house in order, start with Chime. It's built for you, not for the 1%. Visit chime.com or download the Chime app today to learn more. Okay, so couple couples in cash first date or third date? How soon is too soon to talk about money?
- [39:43]
B
I don't think it's ever too soon if it happens organically. But I think if you're trying to steer into it, first date. It's probably not a great idea.
- [39:49]
A
Yeah, weird.
- [39:50]
B
I think that would be weird. I think that first date is really more general get to know you stuff, I think. But again, money can be an invitation to talk about a lot of other things about what's important to someone where they've been. I also think that you can glean from context clues a lot about people's attitude towards money. Like, if someone starts talking about when they summered in Switzerland, you sort of go, oh, okay, I kind of know where we're. Or if someone says, oh, have you stayed at this place? That's really how people flex when it comes to wealth, is by. By talking about, you know, places they've been. If someone says to me, like, oh, I was just in Chamonix, and I'm like, okay, well, then, like, if you're. If you're helicopter skiing, like, you're at a certain level of wealth, you know? Whereas if somebody says, oh, I just spent time in the Hamptons, like, well, you could have got an Airbnb.
- [40:33]
A
You know, that's the weird thing about money because, like, so many of our conversations about money are around it in a way. And I understand that makes it more comfortable and palatable. But also, like all the small talk in New York City of, oh, what part of town do you live in? Oh, did you buy there recently? You know, it's like, people are always trying to understand. Yeah.
- [40:49]
B
And it doesn't really tell you anything.
- [40:50]
A
It doesn't tell you anything because that's
- [40:52]
B
the part I'm always astounded by, is that even the person who talks about, oh, this is what I do, or this is what I wear, this is the watch I have, or whatever. You don't know if they're just leveraged to the hilt and really foolish with money, you know?
- [41:03]
A
Cause you see the show, I have
- [41:04]
B
times where when I look at someone's financial. And I think they have a lot. This happens a lot with actors and musicians, rappers in particular. I've represented a few rappers in connection with child support cases and the flex that they have of their money. And then the reality is that they are just. Their cars are rented, their jewelry's, you know, either rented or fake.
- [41:26]
A
But I do think this conversation about money is, like, people are always trying to telegraph how much money they have, which may be completely a lie. And people are always trying to intuit or, like, extrapolate how much money you have. And I think I really like these, like, direct conversations. By the way, speaking of having direct conversations, I'm directly asking you guys to hit, subscribe, follow on the show, and to share it with five people that you love that you think need to hear this conversation about money and relationships and all those kinds of things. Back to the show.
- [41:52]
B
In my personal life, I have almost no idea how to talk about money, because I grew up without it. And then once I got it, I was very, like, I didn't really understand that, you know, you couldn't speak transparently about money. And. And so I. I just talked very openly about it, and I had to sort of realize, like, oh, that's not like a. That's not really like, a thing you do.
- [42:12]
A
That's not done.
- [42:13]
B
It's not done. My mother was very emphatic that money was only something you needed in case you didn't die tomorrow, and that it was really something that, you know, I. Dying wealthy would be a terrible idea. You know, So I actually think that's true. Yeah. I just didn't. I personally don't. I don't really put that. Like, I don't do what I do for the money. I do what I do for the love of the game. Like, I remember saying many, many years ago to my then wife, you know, if I could do this job and make $100,000 a year, I'll be the happiest person in the world. And she was. I was absolutely right about being the happiest person in the world doing the job, but I grossly underestimated what you could make doing the job. But I. I remember thinking, like, it really wasn't about the money. It was just the love of the game. Of course.
- [42:54]
A
Course you're good at the game. Three months into a relationship, is there a certain amount that you should know about somebody, like, especially, like, in your 30s or something?
- [43:00]
B
Like, about their finances.
- [43:01]
A
About their finances, about how they are with money, about, like, whether they want to prenup? Like, I remember someone bringing that up
- [43:06]
B
to me early on in a relationship, talking about prenups.
- [43:09]
A
Yeah.
- [43:09]
B
Third date. I think that there's a lot of opportunities to talk about prenups in a context that's safe. Like, there's always some celebrity getting married that you can go, I wonder if they're gonna have a prenup. How do you feel about prenups? What do you think about prenups? Like, it's a great, great way to have that discussion early and put it, introduce it to the ecosystem. I think talking about money, some of it will come out organically. I think that, you know, in conversation, naturally. And even just looking at someone you're gonna know, like, okay, does he seem like someone who likes nice things? Where are we having dates? You know, I don't think you should judge people based solely on that, because I know a lot of very wealthy guys who, on the first couple of dates. They take a woman to very unimpressive
- [43:48]
A
places because they don't want to weed out that.
- [43:49]
B
Yeah, well, they want to weed it out. And they also don't want come off like they're leading with their money. Like, if you invite a woman to Le Bernardin for your first date, it's a little much, and I think it's nicer to, you know, we've gone for some walks, we've had some drinks, We've had these. Nice. Now, would you like to do something kind of more fancy than that? Would you like to go someplace? And I'm a big fan of. You only get to do something the first time, one time. So I think that, like, we're poorer for the fact that, like, we eliminated bases in, you know, our intimate connections. Like, because you only get to kiss someone the first time, you only get to see them naked for the first time one time. So if you kind of do all of that in one night, and that also is the night you met them. Oh, that's crazy. Like, you've given up so many really fun, beautiful moments you could have accumulated over a period of time, you know, So I think it's the same thing. I think that organically, we can, you know, start to glean something about each other's financial habits from the way we treat. Like, I. I tend to judge people a lot by how they tip. Because I was a server, and like, I remember as a server, when someone would leave me a nice tip, it meant a whole lot. But when they'd leave me a nice tip and they would write, like, great service on the check or something, it just made my day. You can extrapolate from that a lot about who this person is at their core and what their values are. Again, it's not the money. It's what does the money symbolize?
- [45:08]
A
Is there a good, like, you know, there's that. The how you treat the waiter test. Is there a good gold digger test? I feel like if there were one, you would know.
- [45:16]
B
Yeah, I mean, I represent a lot of people that are concerned about the gold digger issue. I'm being. I'm being vague in gender because there's a lot of. Of very successful women that I represent who find themselves dating, like, the aspiring musician with the oops, I didn't know I was sexy stubble, and like, no employment prospects whatsoever. It's sort of the. The male equivalent of a gold digger. You know, it's the, like, oh, you're a tech executive, and I can, like, you know, write my poetry. You know, meanwhile he's just like high on the couch playing Call of Duty all day.
- [45:45]
A
So what's the gold digger test? How do you spot one gender neutral gold digger test?
- [45:49]
B
I think you're going to spot that pretty early on. I think that, that fairly early on this person is going to show a tremendous amount of interest in your finances. It's like very often at the core of the gold digger concept is, is something, by the way, something very normal, natural and okay, as far as I'm concerned about the nature of the economy of a relationship.
- [46:12]
A
Yeah, you want to feel financially secure.
- [46:14]
B
You know. One of my tattoos is the seven deadly sins all done as skulls. That's what this whole sleeve is. And I'm always fascinated with the seven deadly sins because all they are is very natural human tendencies taken too far. Like gluttony. We have the desire and necessity of eating, but we take it too far. Lust, the natural biological drive to have intimate connection with another person taken too far. They're all normal things taken too far. So the gold digger concept, to me there's nothing wrong. I'm going to use, I'm going to gender it with a, with a woman wanting a man who is a good provider. One, on a very practical level, if you're potentially going to have a family together, you don't want to have economic instability with the person. But two, there is something about the habits of thought that are often necessary to be successful financially to be a hard charging person in an economic world. Like it tell you something about, about someone. I remember talking to a woman once who said she liked to date men who had beards. And I thought, oh, because it's like cool. And she was like, no, you actually have to be patient to grow a beard. Oh. Like you have to make it through the like frustrating, itchy part where it's patchy. She's like, and I want a man who has patience. I want a man who can like be a little uncomfortable because there's something he wants more that, that is on the other side of that discomfort. So I understood like quote unquote, gold diggers differently, which is, it's a normal selection criteria, but pathologized and perhaps taken too far behind every like gold digger, for lack of a better term, is a person who has now irrationally put value on consumer products or experiences or being able to like flex on social media, which is often like a function of, you know, something that's in the, there's a whole, you know, consumption will fill the void in me.
- [48:03]
A
Yeah.
- [48:03]
B
And And I understand that, like we all, there's all, we all have something that we think is going to fill the void, you know, whether you want to call it a God sized hole or whatever hole it is in us, like whatever trauma, whatever, you know, stuff we're carrying around that we think, oh, if I can throw enough chocolate cake or pour some whiskey on this, I'll. It'll go away. And that's not how it works. But for some people, that's money.
- [48:25]
A
Interesting. Last time you told me separate bank accounts or green flat, and I was a little torn on that because it feels like if we're in it together, you're in it together.
- [48:33]
B
And I love that you identify that as a feeling, you know? Yeah, yeah. It feels like this to me. Like, it doesn't feel like that to me, but it feels like that to you. Yeah, it's totally valid.
- [48:42]
A
But your work has like changed my mind about prenup and like, I've seen it's. I, I understand it, but you, me and we. What is the right split in a relationship to like how much of your money? And I almost thought about bringing like a jug and marble. So you play a game here too, but I, Yeah, it was like too heavy.
- [48:57]
B
I don't even think we need the prop, but it's good. I mean, I, I think that's gonna be going to depend on the user, right? On each person, what's important to them, what percentage of their income goes to trivialities, or what they would both regard as like, you know, like fun spending or non essentials. There's lots of ways to do things. It's just like saying, like, how much sex is enough sex in a relationship? I don't know, like, use the baseline of when you got together and if you were both satisfied with it, that's a good baseline. But will you sustain that throughout a relationship? Maybe not. So just again, when something changes, have a conversation about, about it. I think we all know we have certain essential expenses when it comes to money. We have certain things that we have to pay, like, or there are consequences, like we have to pay our credit card bill, we have to pay our auto, we have to pay our rent. We have to pay. Or there are consequences, foreclosure, eviction, whatever it might be. So those are essentials. I think you have to have a conversation about what are your essentials financially? And then what are the predictable things that we need, but they're not essentials. Like my gym membership. It's really important. I need one. It doesn't Maybe have to be the high end one, but it could be one that's. And by the way, maybe that's a category where to me spending is very important that. So I want a nice gym or I like to fly first class. Okay. I know it's not an essential, but for me it's a high ranking item. It would definitely go above watches or clothing. Having conversations about what does that look like for us? That's a great place to start. And then you can identify what is the we. How should we divide that? Because maybe if I'm very emphatic about I want my gym is very important to me. And for you, shoes is very important to you. So if that's important to you. Okay, then that's important to you. If I love you, I should honor the fact that this is something that you understand is not an essential, but it makes you feel a certain way. And that's lovely. Like, I think if I love you and I support our relationship, I want you to feel like the best version of yourself. You know, Look, I may not want a woman who spends a lot of money on clothing, but if I want a woman who looks beautiful and feels confident and carries herself with the confidence that a woman who loves the clothing that she's in and carries herself with, well, okay, man, buy the ticket if you want the ride. Like you don't want the carrying charge of it, but you want the thing that doesn't work.
- [51:08]
A
Doesn't work.
- [51:08]
B
You want to date a man who's successful, you're going to date a man who's busy probably. So you got to live with that. So it's okay to say like, oh my God, it'd be so great if a guy had a ton of money, but also was just around all the time and very emotional. Okay, great. And he'd be a fucking unicorn. Like that may, his great grandfather died one day. That would be the only. You gotta find a trust fund guy who's also not a psycho.
- [51:32]
A
Yeah.
- [51:32]
B
So good luck with that. You know, so I think that's an important piece is you gotta realize this is there's gonna be trade offs here.
- [51:38]
A
I agree with that. I remember I once was briefly dating a Scandinavian person and he and I asked cause I was so curious, like, how do people do? Because they're so specific. Like the welfare state works because like if, if their uncle is drinking, they have a conversation with him. Cause you're stealing from the whole society. So, so he said like, you know, basically couples come in and they put a percentage even from the very beginning into the bank accounts, and as you, like, have more things together, you have a baby together, you have a house together. Just that percentage increases over time, and it's just proportionate to your earned income. And there's like a formula by which they do all this shit, which is so interesting.
- [52:10]
B
Look, we think in generalities and then we live in details. Yes, right. So, like, what should the speed limit sign say on the side of the road? If it's being honest, it's should say drive at a rate of speed commensurate with the weather conditions and traffic pattern in accordance with your abilities as a driver.
- [52:28]
A
Ah, I can tell you that's a lawyer.
- [52:29]
B
That's a long scene. So instead, what you would write is 55 miles an hour. Is that the right speed? I don't know, maybe. Like, is 54 less dangerous? Is 56 more dangerous? Probably not that much. So what you have to do is you got to pick a number. So, like, when you pick percentages like that, like child support, in New York State, if you have one kid, 17% of your gross income, less FICA, two kids is 25%, three kids is 29%, four kids is 31%. Those are arbitrary numbers. Yeah, but we got to pick a number, right? So if you want to do that as a couple and say, okay, this is the percentage, and this is at this many years, we'll do that. I do prenups all the time where people are like, well, I want to do this much per year of marriage I'm guaranteed to have. And I'm like, cool. And they're like, what's the right number? I'm like, oh, you're asking me?
- [53:15]
A
Yeah.
- [53:15]
B
Like, I have no idea. Like, it's a very individual question. We can make legally binding anything you want, but I can't tell you how much money is enough for you.
- [53:25]
A
Is it fair? Like, it came down to what you said before, which is like, what you need, what you want, what you're entitled to. So is it fair that people in relationships should co own what their partner makes, creates, builds in the time that they are together? Like, is that inherently right that our system does that, and should it be protected even outside of marriage? I guess those are two questions I have.
- [53:48]
B
Yeah. So it's a great question I've never been asked, but what I would say is, I don't think it's one size fits all. But the law has to be one size fits all, because one size fits all is rarely a good thing. But equal protection under law is A really important thing. So, you know, again, our legal system's not perfect and like our democracy, it's the worst one out there, except for all the other ones. In our legal system we make a lot of error on the side of. So we would rather set 10 guilty people free than have one innocent person go to jail. That's how our criminal justice system works. Our civil system says we would rather that children and people who are economically disadvantaged be taken care of after a divorce. And the risk to that is someone might have a burden that they have to carry support wise, that's too heavy for them. But we'd rather err on the side of making sure kids have the things they need a hundred percent. I think that's an okay presumption. The danger, I would say, of having a system where what we call the mar. What you just identified is what's called the marital presumption, which is from the date of marriage on, if you don't have a prenuptial, agree. Everything you acquire during the marriage is presumed to be marital property unless it fits into very small narrow categories of separate property.
- [55:00]
A
That's different in different states. Right. Like California is very different generally, but not really. Not really.
- [55:03]
B
Every state has some rule that says in the absence of a prenup, when you get married, you're one person in the eyes of the law. So if you buy your spouse a Rolex watch, you bought yourself one half of a Rolex watch. If your spouse wins the lottery, you got one half of the lottery winnings.
- [55:17]
A
Okay.
- [55:18]
B
Oh yeah. If I buy my spouse a Birkin bag. I bought myself one half of a Birkin bag for their birthday.
- [55:23]
A
They should buy two then. I'm just kidding.
- [55:26]
B
Listen, I've got a lot of clients. His gambling debt and her Birkins are very similar.
- [55:30]
A
So how do you look at the conversation around like Mackenzie Bezos and Jeff Bezos and like, like MacKenzie Bezos deserves 50% of Amazon.
- [55:39]
B
I mean one might argue that neither Jeff Bezos nor Mackenzie Bezos deserves the amount of money that they have. Yes, but I, if you, if you accept the premise. Yeah. That while, you know, a couple of thousand children die from starvation an hour, we have billionaires and trillionaires walking around under the rules as they're applied. She is entitled to what she's entitled to.
- [56:03]
A
And Lauren Sanchez. I think there's a lot of woman on woman crime against Lauren Sanchez and the actual principal is, you know, Jeff.
- [56:08]
B
But yeah, I mean, I think what people spend their money on is entirely up to them.
- [56:15]
A
Are you saying that Jeff Bezos spends his money on Lauren Sanchez?
- [56:18]
B
I think that's pretty obvious. I mean, I think that's. She doesn't look low maintenance and they're wedding. You know, look, I think fundamentally what people do with their money is up to them. I think how people earn their money there. There are rules to the game, and people play the game the way they play it. And I don't criticize people who play the game by the rules because they're not the ones who made the rules. Do I think that in a divorce that the rule should be that anything you acquire during the marriage, like if a spouse was sitting by the pool eating bonbons and yelling at you about why aren't you coming home sooner? So your success was kind of like in spite of them. It shouldn't be the same as the. She was licking envelopes in the office and helping you and not getting paid for it. I feel like a system that treats those two things exactly the same. Like, part of the reason why I never felt any resentment towards my ex wife for what she was entitled to is that we had two very young children while I was in law school and she did, like, all of the heavy lifting. And so to me, like, we were both working our asses off at our respective roles, and I could not have done my job if it wasn't for her. And she could not have done her job as a parent without me at that moment.
- [57:45]
A
Yeah, the kids.
- [57:46]
B
So it was this feeling, but even if we hadn't had kids in the equation, like, when you're in law school, like, you can't do your own laundry. You can't do, like. And having someone that supports you in that is so useful and just even having someone to spend time with.
- [57:58]
A
But that's why I actually kind of think, like, I. I get your. I get your point on, like, pay, but I actually have a different take on Lauren and Jeff.
- [58:05]
B
I don't know these people.
- [58:06]
A
I don't know these people either. Lauren Sanchez and Jeff Bezos, which is that, like, that's exactly it. He wants to spend his time with her. She is fun and. No, no, no, I know you're not. And I'm not rising to her defense or anything, but I just, I think that there is. Yeah, that's how they want to spend their time. And do you think they're gonna make it? Are Lauren Sanchez and Jeff Bezos gonna get a divorce or stay together?
- [58:29]
B
I mean, I'm sure there's a prenup that's gotta be Incredible.
- [58:32]
A
Are you so sad that you didn't make that prenup?
- [58:34]
B
No, I'm just California. I'm not. You know, I don't. I don't worry about it. There's more than enough prenups here. If I had some of the prenups I have in my safe, I swear to God, if TMZ could get in my safe, what I would say is they seem to be very. I like relationships where it seems like everybody's as advertised.
- [58:52]
A
Yes, I agree.
- [58:53]
B
Like, and I think he's as advertised. She's as advertised. The wedding reflected their as advertised dynamic, and I kind of love that. What I find more pretentious is when people try to be, like, all humble on their private jet.
- [59:06]
A
Yes.
- [59:06]
B
Like, I find people flying to, you know, on their private jet to talk about, like, poverty is like, all right, guys.
- [59:13]
A
My dad used to call that nouveau pour. It's like when you, like, take a first class flight to hitchhike somewhere.
- [59:18]
B
Yeah. We used to call it being a limousine liberal.
- [59:20]
A
Exactly. Okay. You were the prenup guy.
- [59:23]
B
Yeah.
- [59:24]
A
So all of this. So prenup versus post. Nuts.
- [59:27]
B
Better to have a prenups. Much better than a postnup. Postnups in some jurisdictions aren't even enforceable. Prenups are well tested. Postnups also, too. The negotiation of a postnup, you've essentially removed any kind of. I don't want to say, leverage consideration.
- [59:40]
A
Yeah, it's obsolescent bar. Obsessing bar.
- [59:42]
B
Because you're. You're agreeing, like, these are going to be the rules for a thing we've already done.
- [59:46]
A
You have two companies now in the prenup space, right? Or one.
- [59:49]
B
Just one. I have two. I have two companies in the legal AI intersection. One is a discovery related product called Bates Flow, and the other is. Trusted prenup.
- [60:01]
A
Yeah. Trusted prenup. Are you putting yourself out of business by doing that?
- [60:03]
B
No, because prenups are one of the lowest profit items that. That lawyers do it really like a very complex prenup. You're talking five, $10,000. Whereas my retainer on a case is 50 grand. 100 grand.
- [60:16]
A
Oh, wow.
- [60:17]
B
So on a prenup, like, you may not make any money on a prenup.
- [60:20]
A
What is the weirdest clause that you have seen in a prenup?
- [60:22]
B
Oh, God. Well, I mean, the one that's a matter of record that I get asked about all the time was the. The weight clause, where for every 10 pounds she gained, she would lose $10,000.
- [60:31]
A
Was that legally binding?
- [60:32]
B
It Was it was upheld by intellect.
- [60:34]
A
Tell the story in case people haven't heard it.
- [60:36]
B
Very wealthy guy, very beautiful woman. That's what they each brought to the table. I couldn't tell if there was really anything else discernible about them of value. And because he was ogrish in the rest of his demeanor and she was vapid. But, you know, like, they. They had in common that she loved his money and he loved his money, and she loved how she looked and he loved how she looked. So, I mean, there's couples that probably have less in common than that. And yeah, they. They had. The clause in the prenup was that she got. I think it was $150,000 a month in alimony divided by a certain percentage of the duration of the marriage. So it was a colossal amount of money, but the duration was short. And depending on how long the marriage was, but she lost $10,000 a month in alimony for every 10 pounds that she gained.
- [61:29]
A
Insane.
- [61:30]
B
And I remember I didn't write the prenup. I wasn't there for the negotiation, the prenup. I was there when they were getting divorced and I was representing him in defending the prenup. So I had to argue to the judge that you can think he's boorish and awful, but this is a contract. And they both were represented by lawyers and they're both adults. And they both understood the clear and unequivocal terms of this contract and they both agreed to it. And ultimately the judge in her decision, as female judge said, this is a disgusting clause by any objective standard. I cannot fathom why you would marry a man who would put this in there. But it is legally binding. And if it's legally binding, I'm not going to set it aside. You had the right to not marry this person. You had the right to not sign this agreement, and you signed it.
- [62:20]
A
What about minimum sex requirements? Is there.
- [62:22]
B
Is that people have put that in. I've had a lot of people want to put. The stuff people want to put in versus what they put in is different. People come to you all the time and say, this is what I want to put in. And a lot of the prenup process for me is explaining to them why that's a terrible idea.
- [62:35]
A
What is the thing people most want to put in that you tell them to put out?
- [62:37]
B
Fidelity clauses.
- [62:38]
A
Fidelity.
- [62:38]
B
People fucking love fidelity clauses. And their ridiculous. Ridiculous. Because they're ridiculous on every level. One, it's very, very hard to prove cheating. Two, you have to define what cheating means, which is that genital to genital contact, oral to genital contact, digital to genital contact. If someone is, is having a one time dalliance with someone they don't even know versus an emotional texting affair where they're sending the person nudes, is that infidelity? For the purposes of this. And then if you make infidelity so broad, like any. I had someone who just wanted to put in the prenup any inappropriate contact with a member of the opposite sex. I was like, and there's gonna be a hundred thousand dollar penalty for that. Like, okay, if you're gonna make the penalty big enough to have some incentive, then the category has to be small enough that you can't weaponize it inappropriately. But then the other thing is fundamentally underneath all of this is the incredibly flawed premises that someone is going to be thinking about cheating to the point where they're actually gonna do it. And then they would go calculation. But which by the way, let's say it's 100 grand. I don't know about you, I've had some sex. Probably be worth a hundred grand.
- [63:49]
A
Yeah, I think not a lot.
- [63:51]
B
Yeah, but I've had some hundred grand sex where I'd be like, you know what, how much? It's probably worth it.
- [63:56]
A
I think you gotta get it in the seven figures.
- [63:57]
B
So that's another, that's another piece. And then the next piece of it is, has anyone in the history of infidelity, okay, which has been around since five minutes after the concept of monogamy was created, has anyone ever gone, man, I want to have, oh, no, but there's a penalty financially to that. Like, has any junkie ever been like, I need a fix. Oh, wait, heroin's illegal, I really shouldn't do that. Then, like, this is not. And by the way, if that was true, like assume for the purposes of this thought experiment that your partner would be disabused of their desire to have sex with other people based on a financial penalty. Is that why you want that? Like my belief in monogamy personally is in a relationship, I'm gonna have sex with as many people as I want to.
- [64:48]
A
Yes.
- [64:49]
B
And I only want it to be one. I just want it to be one. Because when I'm full, I don't eat anymore.
- [64:55]
A
Yeah.
- [64:55]
B
Like, when I'm satisfied, I'm satisfied. Is the reason you're not murdering people because it's illegal? Is the reason you're not murdering because you're afraid there's a watchman in the sky who's going to get mad at you. Because, brother, if that's the case, you're a piece of shit. Yeah, like it should be. Oh, no. I respect the autonomy of other sentient beings and that they have a right to live free from being murdered by someone. Not. It's illegal and I'll get in trouble. Or. What are we, kindergarteners? Like, I'm gonna get in trouble, and that's why I don't do this. So if the Fidelity Club. The only thing preventing you from cheating on yourself spouse is a financial penalty. Don't get married.
- [65:30]
A
Yeah.
- [65:30]
B
Don't.
- [65:31]
A
Okay, here's one last time we talked about marriage being a threesome with estate. That was my analogy. Very unsexy threesome.
- [65:40]
B
What if the least sexy Threesome. That's a terrible threesome.
- [65:43]
A
What is the default prenup of the state that you most want to override when you're writing a prenup? Like, if people could just do one thing.
- [65:51]
B
Yeah. That they.
- [65:52]
A
The one line prenup. What would it be?
- [65:53]
B
The marital presumption. The presumption that all property acquired during the marriage is marital property subject to equitable distribution and that marital property will be broadly construed and separate property. And narrowly construed. If you just had a prenup that flipped the preposition and said all property will be presumed to be separate property unless it fits into these narrow categories of marital property, nine times out of 10, you'd be good to go.
- [66:17]
A
Oh, interesting. Okay. That's a solve.
- [66:19]
B
And also, I think spousal support, or what is called alimony in some jurisdictions is arbitrary and problematic on a lot of levels because people have multiple streams of income or they have some control over their business, or they have a structure where they get overtime or bonuses. And it can create this conundrum where judges have to come up with an earning capacity for the purposes of support.
- [66:40]
A
Yes.
- [66:41]
B
And it's. It's just. You might as well throw darts in the dark, and you probably hit a better target.
- [66:45]
A
Okay, we're almost at the end of our time. Are you almost full? Full.
- [66:48]
B
I'm almost full. I'm hard to satisfy.
- [66:50]
A
Hard to satisfy.
- [66:51]
B
But it's the second date, so.
- [66:52]
A
The second date, so we're gonna do the paddles again.
- [66:54]
B
Oh, my God, I can't wait. Love it. All right.
- [66:56]
A
Okay. We'll take this out of the way to you.
- [67:01]
B
We got. We got a little. We were a little viral with the paddle. The one clips of the paddle did.
- [67:06]
A
One of the.
- [67:06]
B
One of our clips with the paddles did. Well, people haven't heard it.
- [67:09]
A
I can go back and listen. Okay, so we're gonna do a green flag, red flag, money edition. Okay. So if you're dating someone and this comes up, let's see, splits the check on the first date. Red flag.
- [67:20]
B
Yeah. The person who invited should pay. I don't think it should go on gender lines unless there's strong feelings. I think the person who extended the invitation should pay.
- [67:29]
A
Okay, that's a good one. All right, how about wants to buy property together before getting married.
- [67:35]
B
Okay with that? I don't think it's a great idea legally. But just a person wanting to invest in the relationship prior to the legal symbolic act. I'm okay with that.
- [67:46]
A
Wanting to get. Okay. I. I'm a little red flag on that because I'm like, you're getting more
- [67:50]
B
context to answer with great confidence. But the scenarios that are popping into my mind.
- [67:55]
A
Yeah.
- [67:55]
B
Are fairly benign.
- [67:57]
A
Okay, what about wants to bring a living being into the relationship? Let's start with pet before you're married.
- [68:04]
B
I like that.
- [68:05]
A
Oh, I don't like it.
- [68:06]
B
I like that. I think with a contract in place, trustedpetnup.com. by the way, Trusted Petnup is. Is the free wing of trusted prenups. Oh, yes.
- [68:15]
A
Because you're a partner.
- [68:16]
B
Yeah. We created Trusted petnup so that anyone who adopts a animal from any animal shelter can have a pet agreement if they're cohabitating or in a relationship or married. That essentially is a prenup for the pets because they didn't ask to be caught in the middle of this. And it's free.
- [68:33]
A
Free.
- [68:33]
B
100% free. If you adopted your pet, if you bought your pet at a pet store or a breeder, it's pay what you wish, and 100% of the money that comes from it goes to local animal shelters.
- [68:45]
A
Okay. What about having a kid together before you get married?
- [68:49]
B
I'm okay with that. The law in every state does not tie rights of parenting, access, custody, which is decision making or economic support related to children, to marriage. Because there are more and more couples over the years that don't, you know, that don't choose to marry.
- [69:10]
A
Yeah. I think I personally would not want to do it.
- [69:13]
B
Sure.
- [69:13]
A
Like, that's a situation in which I would want to be married and have, like, all the paperwork, which I hate paperwork. But I feel like that's a good situation.
- [69:20]
B
Well, it could also be the symbolic nature of, like, marriage as a very serious commitment and saying, I want us to be deeply committed. Did to each other before, which by the way, suggests, like, if people purchase property before they get married together and they have a pet together, you're starting to have some experiences of roots and connections that aren't easy to untie. Like residing cohabitating together is a tremendous commitment and unraveling that is hard. So I think sometimes those mini commitments before you make this theoretically giant commitment, and it's probably good. How does this person do with the stress testing of commitments when they have a quarrel in the relationship? Do they go, well, I guess we're going to move out then and we have to sell the cat, you know, and you kind of go, wow, like, is this what it would be like if we got divorced? Whereas, you know, maybe if this person goes like, look, we got to figure this out. But I'm going to step outside now, so you have a little space. Or I have a little space and I can clear my head. And now, you see, this is a person who can self regulate.
- [70:17]
A
What about someone who like Venmo's you for everything, accounts for everything kind of gets to a splitting thing.
- [70:23]
B
Personally or sort of as a vibe, I personally, I think that's ick all day.
- [70:29]
A
Red flag or green flag?
- [70:30]
B
Such a red flag, yeah, I think
- [70:31]
A
red flag, AKA kick.
- [70:32]
B
But like, I don't believe in equality. I believe in equity. I just don't think everybody has to do exact. But when I see whoever like the Venmo history, like people that don't have that turned on pride. What the hell's wrong with you? It's like the red receipt. When I see someone Venmoing their spouse and the reason was pizza, I'm like, did you re. Did you reimburse your spouse for one
- [70:55]
A
half of the pizza if Venmo is content? Now I have a friend who has a great Venmo account where she actually has it purposely turned on. And then she just writes the most ridiculous stuff. She'll be like, anytime I send somebody
- [71:06]
B
something, I'll write like hookers and booze.
- [71:08]
A
Or, you know, I always have to do it.
- [71:10]
B
Whenever I send my son things, I'll always like, because I send my son's venmos, you know, and. And whenever I send them money or my nieces, when it's their birthday, I'll send them Venmo and I'll always write some ridiculous, awful thing that it is.
- [71:22]
A
You need to be suspicious of the person who, you know, oh, venmoing you for charity. Venmoing you for like the nice. The bagels today. Yeah.
- [71:30]
B
That you should watch out.
- [71:31]
A
Yeah. Watch out. Penultimate question. A credit score under which you would not date or a credit score disparity across what you should not date?
- [71:41]
B
I mean, me, I worked very hard to have a good credit score, and I think your credit score says a lot. But I do also understand having represented a lot of people. Those are all private agencies.
- [71:52]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [71:53]
B
They have the company, so. Yeah. So there's a real. They can drop your credit score for things beyond your control.
- [72:01]
A
Fico.
- [72:01]
B
Like a Fico under 600. I think you should start kind of going, what went on there? Because there's a story there. And the story might be, yeah, I was young and stupid. I mean, I think. I hate to say it, but it's a little, like, body count. Like, if you go like, oh, like, I had a. I've had this many lovers, it's like, well, wait, did you have, like, a short ho phase, like, in college, where you kind of slept with a bunch of women or you slept with a bunch of men or whatever? Like. Or is this that you've Over a long period of time, or did you go on, like, a bender, you know, and you were like, so it's the same kind of thing. Like, in the. If you look at it in the broader timeline, I think it makes more sense. Like, if somebody says, hey, I made some irresponsible decisions early in college when I had no money, or, oh, you know, I helped my family member with this, or I got scammed out of something, then it might impact their credit score. But I think that's a conversation people should be having because those are formative events in a person's life.
- [72:47]
A
So last question I ask every guest on Smart Girl Jam questions is, what is something that you were dumb about? You asked a question last time you asked about graph paper.
- [72:55]
B
Yeah. What did you do with graph paper?
- [72:56]
A
Yeah. What do people do?
- [72:57]
B
I still don't know the answer to that.
- [72:58]
A
A listener answered that question, so I'm gonna bring you an answer to it.
- [73:00]
B
Oh, my God.
- [73:01]
A
While we're doing this, you're gonna also think about what. What else you might not know. Adam James on Spotify. Graph paper isn't analog drafting, like blueprints for engineering and design concepts or drawing something to a different scale.
- [73:14]
B
It's for scale purposes. That makes a lot of sense.
- [73:17]
A
I replied, no longer need to call Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who I'm seeing on Monday at the Comedy Cellar. But thank you, Adam James.
- [73:22]
B
Adam James. You cleared that up for me in my 53rd year. You got that from me. I respect that.
- [73:28]
A
It was invented by Dr. John Buxton of England in 171994. Invented for engineers, but made popular, popularized by teachers who wanted to show math. Isn't that great?
- [73:39]
B
I've now I feel like I learned something today. It's lovely.
- [73:42]
A
The more you know anything else that you don't know.
- [73:44]
B
There's a lot of stuff I don't know. It's a long, long list. I was laying in bed and I was thinking. I don't know why I was thinking about Adam and Eve. I was thinking about the Bible stories and I thought, why in all of the depictions of Adam and Eve did they have Bella buttons?
- [74:03]
A
It's a good question.
- [74:04]
B
It doesn't make any sense. Because.
- [74:06]
A
Oh, because they were.
- [74:06]
B
They would have no umbilical cord.
- [74:07]
A
They wouldn't have no umbilical cord.
- [74:09]
B
Like Adam was formed from dust and he was formed from his rib.
- [74:12]
A
I just realized.
- [74:13]
B
But they. Neither of them would have an umbilical cord. So why would they have the belly button? So that. That felt to me. Has there ever been an artist who figured out that, like, oh, when we make them, we shouldn't have.
- [74:24]
A
Like, maybe artists are not generally religious. So maybe it was like. Like a. It was like. It's a.
- [74:28]
B
It's a sub very though they take like. Like Jesus has great abs and obliques in particular. Like, I think there's a savior. You know what I mean? Would be a video worth watching because he's got the Usher, you know, like the.
- [74:43]
A
I can imagine, like Jonathan Van Ness teaching like a Jesus Christ workout class.
- [74:46]
B
His abs are great.
- [74:47]
A
His abs are great. And his hair is kind of Jesus. Like jvn. We need that jvn.
- [74:52]
B
We love jv.
- [74:53]
A
I'm so excited for your next book. What's it gonna be called?
- [74:55]
B
This is coming out of this. You're the first. You got a scoop on this one.
- [74:59]
A
I love a scoop.
- [75:00]
B
It was a real debate. And I only got to title it this cause I won an argument with my people. But the book is called you suck at Love. And there was some argument about that. But the thing that I wanted to say with it and what the book is about is that the you is all of us. Like, the you is we, like, it would be we suck at love. It really is about. This is something we all want so bad. And you suck at it. Like, we all suck at it. And by the way, like, I represent the highest achieving people in the world now.
- [75:33]
A
Yeah.
- [75:34]
B
And I used to represent every day, sort of, you know, cops and teachers and things like that. And you suck at Love. Like, these people are great at the most difficult things. World class surgeons, unbelievable people. And they suck at love. And so it's such a great unifier that I said, I want that to be the title. I want the title to be, you suck at love. Yeah, I suck at love. Yeah, I think you suck at love. We all suck at love. I'm great at it at moments.
- [76:01]
A
Yeah.
- [76:01]
B
But if you judge me by where I get it wrong, I get it wrong a bunch of places. Like, we're dumb in more areas than we're smart.
- [76:09]
A
That's the whole premise.
- [76:10]
B
So, so that's. That's. You suck at love. Like, you're great at it too. You have an interest, infinite capacity for it, but you suck at it. It's okay. Embrace it. Embrace the suck. Be like, yeah, we suck at this thing. And the only way we're gonna get better at, like, the only way you get smarter is by admitting where you're dumb.
- [76:24]
A
Exactly.
- [76:25]
B
The only way you get better is by saying, I suck at this. Help me get better at it. Because I think it is something we get. People spend a lot of time trying to teach me long division of fractions. And it was. I can tell you right now, I've never once used it my whole life. Graph paper. Never once used it my whole life. But, like, how do you, you know, how do you trust someone? How do you share with someone? What's the. No one taught me the effect that, like, a woman's hormones during ovulation might have. Your mom telling you about.
- [76:52]
A
I know.
- [76:52]
B
No, I guess she didn't want me to get laid. I don't know. But she, she did not. Which I understand, but I, you know, I. The fact that I was 50 by the time someone explained to me that, like, oh, yeah, like, a woman's, like, desire is, like, heightened when she's ovulating. And I was like, why, why don't every guy go out and get that tracking app that's out there that tells you when a woman's cycle is so, you know, like, when to have, like, salty and sweet snacks, avoid conversations. And when you could, like, be like, hey, why don't we, like, have wild, crazy sex?
- [77:19]
A
James, you suck at love.
- [77:20]
B
That's a bad idea.
- [77:23]
A
Thank you so much for coming here. I hope I can. I have to find something.
- [77:27]
B
I hope we have a third date.
- [77:28]
A
This is. I hope so. This was really fun. And I like that it's like a conversation that you don't generally like. Like a little orthogonal to what you
- [77:34]
B
do, which is why I was very excited. I've taken a break for several months now from doing any kind of podcast, but I knew we had committed to doing another one. And I was really. One of my staff saw it. They're like, I thought you were on your break. And I was like, it's, it's, it's, it's. I said that we would do it. And they were all like, oh, that was really good one. We're glad you're going back. So they're big fans.
- [77:51]
A
Oh, thank you. Well, you can't deny chemistry. Thank you, Jim. You're a great guy. I need an excuse for a third date with Jim Sexton, because every time I learn so much from him, I just appreciate how direct he is, how he did those, like, movie distillations. I'm gonna only be sending all my movie clips and maybe all my text messages to Jim Sexton, divorce attorney, to decode them for me because that was quite a talent. I learned a lot about my own financial health and things I need to do, including maybe getting a will done. But what did you learn? You came. You can drop us a comment. Leave it here. If it seems too private, like your FICO rating, please don't send us your FICO rating. You can just slide into our DMs Mark Girldom questions or drop me an email naimarazza101mail.com and as always, please share this episode with people in your life that you think want to learn about money. Want to learn about all the things. And by the way, you can watch the full episode on Spotify, especially if you want to see the paddles or the tattoos or any of the other PG13 stuff that happened on this episode. Spotify been amazing partners to me, and so has Chime, which is the sponsor of the Smart Girl, Dumb Questions, Smart Money series. We're going to be doing four of these conversations and I want to use this to, like, figure out all the dumb questions I have that I think a lot of us have when it comes to money and relationships, money and possibility. Like money and how we manage our careers, money and whether we buy homes or not. So we're going to be talking about all of those questions. We're going to talk about the American dream and how we can reach for it. We're going to talk about whether you should rent or buy or own or co op, I don't even know. And we're going to talk about how you make it, how you progress in this world. So stay tuned for more Smart Girl dumb questions Smart Money series. This episode was produced with Justa Wonderad, Melissa Lee Gibson, Sanjana Nagam and Aisha Jordan. It was mixed by Johnny Simon, engineered by Colin Lee, edited by Darlena Chiem and David Chin. Our theme music is by David Khan. I'm your host, Naima Raza and I'll see you next time Week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I need to go dual Will because I might die soon.