← Smart Girl Dumb Questions
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- [00:00]
A
Why does everyone have a podcast? And do you need one too? This is Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Neymay Marraza, and today I want to pull back the curtain on this multi billion dollar podcasting boom. What it takes to actually make it and what I've learned. A year into doing Smart Girl Dumb Questions and five years into being part of the podcast world, from the New York Times to Vox to now my own, I'm going to do all of this in conversation with my friend and fellow podcaster, Sammy Cohen of social currency fame. Hi, Sammy.
- [00:25]
B
Hi, Naima.
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A
So, have we made it? Smart Girl Dumb question.
- [00:32]
B
You just won the IHEART Award for best emerging podcast. So I think it's safe to say, especially since you beat out a Kardashian and the SNL star hosting the event, that you have successfully made it.
- [00:44]
A
Oh, well, thank you. I think that's the first award I've had to go on stage and receive since I won Best all round Student in the sixth grade.
- [00:52]
B
Yeah, I think similarly to you. I think the last time I got an award was in high school for like volleyball or something like that.
- [01:00]
A
Or actually, I should say it was in sixth grade. It was at university. International Law. That doesn't exist, in case you've been watching the news. Doesn't exist. But I studied it. It is funny as an adult to go do that.
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B
Can I ask you a question?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And be honest here. Did you expect to win or. Because your speech was very eloquent and I was like, she has practiced this before. What was your mentality going into that?
- [01:21]
A
So my speech was, well, one part. I was not expecting the stage to be that high marker. Hold on. Question. Can anyone see up my skirt right now? No, I wasn't expecting to win, especially because, you know, one of the contenders is. I'm a huge fan girl of SNL star Igor. No, Adim. And she was also hosting the entire awards show introduced by Will Ferrell. So I just anticipated that it would go to her, but I also felt I should be ready. When we got there, we were sat close to the thing, so it was literally as like the lights were going on. I was like practicing my speech to my friend, but then I still, I screwed it up. I stumbled. It's exciting to get this, but it was also really scary. I think it's like a testament to the grind of doing the show, of having been in the business for five years. I also think it's a testament to everyone who tunes in, everyone who helps make the show. Like, there's so many people that go into it. And I also think it's daunting because now I feel like I need to do the thing I was like. It's just like Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Except it's not a Nobel Peace Prize, it's podcasting. But like, I kind of feel like I need to make it bigger.
- [02:21]
B
Yeah. Well, I think as you said, you have been in this space behind the scenes. You've been obviously co hosts before, but this is the first time you're doing this independently. You are the star of the show. I think it's, as you said, it's a testament. But it also proves, I mean, this is a little bit woo woo of me, but this is who I am. Hey, woo woo. Yeah. I think that there are signs from the universe in various ways, but this is just a point of validation to say that word again to show that you're on the right path. Clearly this is resonating. Clearly your point of view, the people that you're talking to, there is a space for it in. As we're gonna talk about the wildly saturated space of podcasting.
- [03:03]
A
Wildly saturated. And I think, I mean, I wanna move on from this win. Cause I feel like, I mean like this is like if I talked about best all around student in the seventh grade. No, but like I think of content as three things. Editorial, the audience and the money. The monetization. Right. It's like that flywheel that kind of keeps you going. And I feel like the editorial side, like this is a great win. Being named a Spotify top 10 best new show of 2025, that was a huge win. The audience and the money side is also what I'm trying to figure out. And I have to say, half a million people who tune into your content on social media and you've made the decision after years of being on social media to get into podcasting a year ago. So I feel like I'm really excited to have this conversation because I feel like I came from podcasting. I feel like I'm making it in podcasting. And podcasting now requires this social media engine that I haven't made it in. And I feel like my audience is small there and I'm trying to grow it. And you've had it kind of the other way around, Right. Where you've like killed it in social media and now you're like grinding and trying to do it on podcasting, right?
- [03:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think so. You're exactly right. I started, I posted my first video ever on TikTok in March of 2022. So now I've been four years in and I feel, I don't think you ever feel like an expert in something like social media, but I'm really comfortable in that space. Short form is where I initially got my reps in, so I feel really good. And for, for anyone who hasn't seen my social content on Instagram or TikTok or any of the others, I essentially do these mini business deep dives or just hot takes on what's going on.
- [04:30]
A
Could I actually big you up for a second? Because I. So I actually followed your content way before you and I had ever corresponded and I loved it because I'd come from covering business and tech and I love these like minute long proofs. You'd be like, you know, you just read the headline of like some Forbes 30 under 30 person is like having some scandal again is like maybe gonna go to prison. You just read that every day and then you break it down like distill it what actually went wrong? Where was the scam? When should we have known? And you dissect these like so articulately in 60 to 120 seconds. So for me I'm like, you already were killing it there. Like why move from short form to long form?
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
When the world is moving from long form to short form, nobody has the attention span. So why are you going against the current?
- [05:13]
B
That's actually a really interesting point that you just made because it is true, right? Like the biggest growth driver of podcasts nowadays are the short form clips. But you really do need both. And because everyone has the attention span of a goldfish nowadays, it's great to be able to have a short form content machine that works really well. But my goal was always to drive people to long form because there's only so much that you can really convey to an audience in these 60 second clips. And I just felt like I wanted people to get to know my perspective, to know me a little bit more on a deeper level. The way that I see the, the funnel working nowadays is a lot of people get started on short form cause it's also lower barriers to entry. Everyone has a phone, but it's really, it's easier than ever to have a viral moment and then continue to build on that. And I believe that what people should do is start there if that's where you're most comfortable. And a lot of people say that's where they are most comfortable. And then funnel people to long form. And what is the long form, medium now it's podcasting.
- [06:12]
A
It's podcasting. Everything's a show, everything's tv. Podcasting is tv. This is a thing. So I think what we want to do in this hour is not just talk about ourselves. We want to talk about really how media is changing. I recently heard this quip that one out of three Americans suffer from a friend who has a podcast and one out of five of us suffer from an email that's like, will you be on my podcast?
- [06:32]
B
I believe it, I believe it.
- [06:34]
A
But it is taking over the world. And you have heard about this, like the podcasting election of 2024. I think part of what's really driven the podcasting boom is this cultural resonance of it. What's different about podcasting from, say, Hollywood is it feels this very intimate format. People have parasocial relationships with people they consume content from. That was most striking to me in watching this documentary. It's just come out on Netflix. Louis Thoreau's the Manosphere. For people who haven't seen the Manosphere, it is a look at the world of content that is really targeting a disaffected kind of male population who feel that they cannot provide. It's kind of showing these quite anti feminist, anti, what they call red pill vision of the world. And it's largely around the dominance of men and the subjugation of women. You watch this.
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B
Oh, do I have a lot of feelings about this documentary?
- [07:26]
A
What are your feelings about this documentary?
- [07:28]
B
So first I, I think people love to use the word manosphere. It's like a sexy term to kind of throw a label on what people perceive as this kind of fringe area of media and podcasting. I thought what really stood out to me when I was watching this on the plane yesterday actually was that the fans are so obsessed, it really, to me, it feels more like a cult than anything. But the people who are the leading voices in the manosphere are really resonating with their audience, which is primarily young men anywhere in like the teens to early 20s. And they, these fans are worshiping these voices. I felt like there is something that goes past just someone who is sharing their thoughts on business. And I say that in quotes if you're not watching video, because it's not really great business advice. Let me tell you, there are like crypto scammers. But for me, that was my biggest takeaway was how sad the situation was. Because you're getting all of these young men who are idolizing these individuals who are sharing conspiracy theories. They're sharing things that are just so misogynist. And I mean every type of worry that you have about the future of young men growing up in America. But what did you think?
- [08:45]
A
I was shocked by it. And this is so funny because I cover media. I've been in that world, but I haven't sat down and consumed that particular vertical of content. I think a lot about shifting gender roles. It's a topic on this show a lot. I've talked to Esther Perel about it. I've had Justin Garcia on. I've talked about how the changing role of women in this world, what it means for the fabric of our society, for families, for et cetera. And I don't think this should just be a conservative conversation that's had in the pages of the Heritage Foundation. I think it should be a broad conversation that includes everyone from across the world, because I think people have these questions. I have this question. It's a woman who's had a successful career and doesn't have kids yet and feels all the more reason to make it because I don't have kids.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But what was interesting to me about this world is I hadn't seen how toxic I had gotten in certain elements. And I also, I was so interested in the upstream of, like, what drives people to, like, this level of despair that they seek such domination.
- [09:41]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:42]
A
I want to say, very importantly, when we're having this conversation about the manosphere, we're not talking about the Joe Rogans of the world. We're talking about, like that particular documentary and the characters that are focused in it and the kind of Andrew Tate's in that world that exists. And I think it's really important to say that because I got this feedback a lot for Esther Perel where they were like, oh, it's so nice to hear two women in a podcast not bashing men. And I thought that's kind of sad to hear that.
- [10:06]
B
Yeah. It speaks to how divided the world is. So I think that there is a pile on effect. I mean, I still stand by the fact that I think it's absolutely disgusting, but. Yeah, yeah, but I think it is easy right now because it happens to be this, like, sexy term.
- [10:22]
A
I also thought Louis was genius in how he talked about, like, how symbiotic all of this media is. Like, I remember my first episode of a podcast I used to co host at Semaphore was with Vivek Ramaswamy. And Vivek came on, he was like, very friendly. And then we started rolling and then he was just like, as soon as I said something. He's like, well, name. I'll stop you right there. And he jumped right in. And then after we stopped rolling, he was like, that was great. Like, we got into it. That's good for all of our audiences. And I was like, ugh, I hate this kind of media.
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B
Yeah.
- [10:47]
A
You know, so performative it is like, I'm like, okay. And what Louis was saying is, like, him doing this documentary and being there gave them content to make their audiences mad about being targeted by the people who were, quote, unquote, targeting them. He's making a documentary that cast them as others. And then you'd have podcast episodes where, like, women were showing up to be berated. What was that guy's.
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B
Myron Gaines?
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A
Yes. And he has a podcast called Fresh and Fit, and it's profiled in the manosphere. And they had like, women come on. And they were like, if these were women who were, you know, we would call it body positive. And they were saying, like, if you're, you know, if you're not thin as a rail, like, you're worthless as a woman. And these women were kind of there showing up knowing they're gonna have this conversation because that antagonism will drive their audience.
- [11:31]
B
Totally. Totally. I kept thinking about how so much of it is about the clout chasing to gain more followers to ultimately. And several of the people in the manosphere talked about this, about how they view their funnel. Like, okay, I'm going to say the most outrageous things that will inspire or rather get some kind of reaction out of someone. Sometimes it was with violence, sometimes it was with really derogatory terms towards women or whatever it is. But they know that that will get the rage. Bait clicks. Yeah. And then after that, they'll funnel people through the rest of their funnel by saying, if you want even more crazy behind the scenes content where we get even wilder and we can't do stuff on the normal platforms because then we'll get banned. Join my telegram and then sign up for my crypto. Whatever. Right?
- [12:17]
A
Okay. So smart girl, dumb questions. Is there anything that you learned in that documentary that you thought, oh, as a content creator, I should really be doing X?
- [12:26]
B
Actually, yes.
- [12:26]
A
Okay. Okay, so tell me. That's actually funny, right? I feel the same. So what did you learn?
- [12:30]
B
So many, I'd say, if not all, many were very big on live streaming, I believe. And this is not necessarily a hot take, but I think it's something that not as many people feel as strongly about. I really believe that we're gonna see this Massive move towards live streaming for different types of creators. I myself intend to get really big into live streaming over the next 12 months and I think that's something number one I learned. I was like, wow, I really need to get into live streaming. The other one and I think shortcomings in this space is I find it really difficult to kind of bounce between the planner, the execution, the creative, all of these different aspects that are required to run a media company. And yes, I have a team that supports me, but I think I'm leaving a lot on the table in terms of providing offerings for my audience where it's only value add. Not pushing things like crypto obviously, but just things that I think could potentially be business opportunities for myself that I just haven't even touched because I'm way too focused on the content and the podcast and all this stuff. So I was like, oh, these, these men are so far on the other side of the spectrum where you have the. One of the guys, his name is HS Tikitaki, so he was probably one of the more outreach but he goes as far as to say things like, I don't care about the well being of my audience. I am purely in this for the money and he's doing everything to drive sales and clicks and he knows that he is doing this for the money. I looked at that, not respecting that in that way. But I just thought, oh, he is really looking at this from a purely strategic and business perspective. And I oftentimes don't really think about the business side. I think about the creative first and then I'm like, oh, we'll see how the business fits into it. So what did you learn from watching Manosphere?
- [14:18]
A
I learned like you live is where it's at, always on is an option. Third, you have to have massive cultural relevance and resonance. I think like having a problem that your audience all feels. And I was finding myself wondering if like what I'm trying to solve at Smart Girl dumb questions, which is like creating a space for you to be curious, ask questions that you, you know, want to have irrespective of the political or the whatever. Push back on those kind of questions is as resonant as like men struggling to be providers make income, like have great jobs in this world. So I think like having a problem that you are fixing for your audience or that you are like showing the answer to to your audience is really important. And I felt like, how do I as a curiosity driven place do that? There was also a sense of watching it where I was like, oh, Is this. This, like, the end? Is this just like the end of the world?
- [15:11]
B
Yeah, I get it.
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A
Like, we're all on our own screens watching our own fragmented reality of the world, and it's just like clipping and clickbaiting and we're consuming. And I found myself a part of me wondering, I'm sure Louis had this question, what are we making and who are we making it for? And why is everyone making something?
- [15:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think that's where. And to go back to your earlier question of is, can I build a curiosity driven place that's as sticky, maybe as the manosphere and providing some kind of inspiration for these young men? I think maybe this is old school of me, but I still believe in the morality of it all and creating content that you believe is helping people, making the world a better place. I think the people in the manosphere have completely lost the plot, and they don't. There is no sense of morality. And several of them even admitted that on the show, which is wild. But that's where I think, yes, it's crazy to see the livestream of it all. And you see the chat that's going on on the side and they're all, like, hyping all the crazy stuff that's going on.
- [16:18]
A
But my thing was, like, what's happening? Who is. Who are these people? Like, who are these people that are watching 247 and, like, commenting?
- [16:24]
B
Yeah, I have those same questions too. Like, who has the time to do something like that? And it is sad because then you think, all right, if live streaming is ultimately your goal is to get someone who is watching your content for long periods of time is in hours, you just think of, okay, what is that person giving up in their own life to be able to sacrifice to watch you behind a computer screen for hours a day?
- [16:50]
A
Yeah, I never want to be that kind of creator. No, I don't want to be on that much. But I also don't want to have people have to watch me that much.
- [16:57]
B
Totally.
- [16:58]
A
We'll take a quick break and be right back. Sami, one of the reasons I've loved your social media and social currency is, like, you break down what's a scam and not. And I go through a world where, like, my continuous dumb questions of smart girl. Dumb questions, like, is everything a scam? Like, I think the fact that, like, I need to see a dentist more times than I see the woman who looks at my vagina and OBGYN is a scam. Like, dentistry seems a scam. Like, why am I going There every six months. No one else. I'm going to every six months, you know, So I want to do a little round where we take these paddles, PG rated paddles. And we're gonna do a little. Is it a scam or not a scam? We've got red or green. Okay, I'm gonna answer and you're gonna answer. So the first one, dentistry, which I think is a scam. Do you think it's a scam? Not a scam. I don't think it's a scam. You say that you have such perfect teeth.
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B
I say it because I feel. I mean, this is kind of gross in tmi, but when I go to the dentist, they're like cleaning a lot of stuff up. And here's how I know. There is no better feeling for me than when you leave the dentist and your teeth are so clean.
- [17:58]
A
But why you gotta go every six months?
- [18:00]
B
Because it's just gonna be so much more buildup and you don't have to. But do I think that it's good?
- [18:08]
A
Yes, I think it's a little scammy. There's books about this where I'll do an episode, but okay, not a scam. What about prescription eyeglasses? The fact that you need to go in every year those prescriptions expire.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah, scam, scam.
- [18:21]
A
Oh, really?
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B
Yeah, yeah, scam. 100%. Well, you know, like the whole Esselor Lixottica conglomerate. And then Warby came in and disrupted them. But you still have to pay prescription to get sunglasses at Warby. I think it is absolutely a scam because once you get your eyes checked and you get a prescription, I feel like you should just be able to get new glasses and you don't need to go to the eye doctor every few years. Like, if you can't see something, you're clearly gonna need a new prescription and you're gonna do something about it. But the way that it feels extra regulated, I think is scammy.
- [18:55]
A
Yeah. Okay, now next, what about protein? Like the amount of protein we need to have. Is protein a scammy? I'm gonna go, no, not a scam.
- [19:04]
B
Yeah, I don't think it's a scam. But you are supposed to have more protein. I think that like anything, if you look at the food fads over the past decade, it is a fad. We're gonna phase it out. It's not gonna be as buzzy as it is. But I do believe that there's truth to it, to needing as much. Yeah.
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A
All right. What about. Okay, next one. Forbes 30 under 30 super scams. Scam.
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B
Strong scam. There is now so much reporting on the number of people who. 30 under 30 who have come out to be, like, doing illegal things. Scamming, like. No, it's to the point where I. This is a hot take, but I'd be embarrassed to lead with that in any conversation if I won a Forbes 30 under 30. To be fair, I have not won Forbes.
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A
And I've aged out. I've aged out.
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B
Yeah. I'm 33. I'm not getting it at any point, but I feel like it's now clearly such a money grab for Forbes too, and they've expanded it to, like, Forbes 30 under 30 for this random industry and this. It's like, literally, you could be a Forbes 30 under 30. The bar is so low because the. The specific verticals are. Are so niche. Yes.
- [20:10]
A
Okay, what about podcasting? Like, the business of podcasting, the idea that everyone needs a podcast, Is it a scam? Are we in a scammy business? I don't think we are. I'm gonna say no.
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B
I'm so earnest.
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A
I love the podcast.
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B
No, the only reason why I was. I was holding on that, and obviously I have a podcast myself, is I think that there is this glamorization. The stats speak to it. The pod fading that happens after podcast episode seven, where 50% are basically gone.
- [20:37]
A
Yeah. It's like 80%.
- [20:39]
B
Yeah. Probably higher. I believe that we need to really just spread education to the layman who wants to open or start a podcast, that there's a lot of work that goes into it. And this is a full video production.
- [20:52]
A
Totally. Actually, you know what? I'll give you, like, a little thing which is I think there are a lot of podcasters who are gonna tell you how much money they make in podcasting. And why are you so dumb? If you're still working at a news organization, you need to have your own podcast. Podcast, and you're gonna make millions of dollars. And, like, that's just not necessarily gonna happen. It is so hard to make it in podcasting. And that's actually what we're gonna talk about. So let's get into that conversation.
- [21:10]
B
Yes. Yes. Well, so my. My first point on. On that, and I think you teed it up really well, is how I think about media and everything that's going on with the. The world of creator empires and creators who are essentially building their own production studios. I think that media, it's being disintermediated, but it's also having this Silicon Valley moment. And what do I mean by that? Silicon Valley part of the allure and the hype and the glamour of it has come from the world of startups. These really nimble, lean companies that challenge the legacy bigger players and are oftentimes able to take over and steal market share from the bigger players because they're slower moving. I think if you take that same framework and apply it to everything that's happening in media, we're seeing that same Silicon Valley startup phase now apply to the world of media.
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A
But how new is that? Because like look, when I remember being in Silicon Valley, which by the way is much less good looking than podcasting these days because we all have to be on video. But I remember being there and in 2014 there was a huge like that was the big YouTube boom. Couldn't really move people away from a distribution platform.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like at the end of the day, YouTube is the Silicon Valley and independent creators are like VCs are standing up our own businesses on that street.
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B
Yep.
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A
I don't know, I just like this feels though different because it's taking over Hollywood because Netflix is doing deals with Spotify to like put, you know, this kind of two people talking in seats next to super high production, multimillion dollar per episode budget shows that you're watching and you're kind of interchanging between them.
- [22:44]
B
Yeah. I would say to that, that Hollywood as we know it is basically its legacy. Right. These big, the Warners of the world are the dinosaurs that will eventually. I know this is really controversial to say. I think that all of those bigger players are gonn to die out.
- [23:01]
A
Oh really?
- [23:01]
B
I do, I do. They're going to be smaller, paid for
- [23:05]
A
water properties, like laughably so.
- [23:08]
B
Yes. But I think granted, let's be clear, the IP that these, these studios have and everything that, that Paramount is now inheriting in the Warner deal, listen, that's inherently valuable. I'm not saying that anyone's going to stop watching those. I just think over time, at the rate where we're having the Mr. Beasts and the Dhar Manns, people who have built themselves up on youtub amassed followings that are rivaling these big studios. I think that is the future. I'm not saying it's gonna happen in the next five to 10 years, but I think our children and our children's children will now look at the MrBeast as the Warners.
- [23:44]
A
Right. I think also. But it's interesting. Film is having a big renaissance too, I think and for a while Everyone was like, film's out, TV's in. And, you know, I remember, like years ago, it was like, video's out. I remember when, like, all the news organizations, the New York Times, Atlantic, et cetera, were pulling back on their video staffing. Just a few years ago, around the pandemic.
- [24:01]
B
I didn't even know that.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah, there was a huge. So these things always go. And I think it's very hard to know what's what. You know, audio had a huge boom in the pandemic because we all had oodles of time. We wanted to multitask. It's such an intimate format. I was saying in 2022, everything's gonna be video. But now I think there's actually a role for audio only. Like, I think sometimes, like, what's hot is not and what's not becomes hot again. It's the cyclical nature of the world.
- [24:27]
B
Do you think with the rate that video is increasing and just Even you see YouTube, obviously YouTube is video first. It's the number one podcast platform. Audio's not going to overtake video. You're just saying it's having, like. There is an opportunity for audio to get more.
- [24:43]
A
I think I'm very curious about what people want to see in a podcast. Benny Blanco and Lil Dicky and Lil Dicky's awesome wife who has no social media presence. They are doing this. Friends Keep Secrets where it's shot in a house, they're moving around. And I'm so curious because if you look at the data around what people want to see, they're not glued to their screen, they're multitasking it. And they wanna see something when it becomes tense, it becomes expressive, like, they wanna check it out. And so it's kind of like a low friction medium, I think. And if you start adding a ton of production value to it, if you start adding a ton of visuals to it and you expect it to be an hour, hour and a half, I think it's gonna be hard. I have to say. I haven't cracked it on YouTube. So my show is like, it's big on Spotify, it's bigger on Apple. You know, there are certain episodes that really pop on YouTube, but I haven't yet cracked the YouTube of it all. Yeah, I think it's hard to, like, crack in that space. And they say it takes a certain number of episodes. I'm in my late 30s in podcasting years. And you have 90 episodes.
- [25:42]
B
90. But to be fair, I do two
- [25:44]
A
a week and I took a summer off and we'll get to that. Like, I thought about, like, should I keep making this show?
- [25:49]
B
I had like a. Yeah, I wonder about that too.
- [25:51]
A
We're gonna get into that. Okay, talk first a little bit more about, like, the world of media. So there's been so much coverage of podcasting. Everyone's watching podcasts. I think it's like a half a billion people worldwide are watching podcasts. But the question is, is it saturated? Is it saturated? And like, where are we going? And so I think the stats are there's something like 4 million podcasts out there in the world. Half a million of them are being updated actively. Meaning, like, there's a new episode at least every month or so. And there were something like 200,000 new podcasts that were created last year alone in 2025. So are we saturated?
- [26:25]
B
My hot take is absolutely not. No, I think this is my POV on it. Yes, the numbers at a high level. It's wild how many new podcasts are coming out, but if you actually look at the stats of who sticks with it, number one, I'll answer this with multiple facets, Facet number one of just the number of people who are actually committed to being consistent. I read something. If you publish 21 podcast episodes, you are in the top 1%. 21. So let's say you do a normal.
- [26:57]
A
But top 1% by publishing, not by.
- [26:59]
B
Yes.
- [27:00]
A
Audience. Yeah, but.
- [27:00]
B
But publishing, it's still a stat. And I think it speaks to how few people stick with the consistency. And going back to what we talked about earlier, I think so few people understand that this is television production. Now, even though you're saying that audio might have a moment, I believe if audio has a moment, it's going to be a very small moment. I think video is the future. I'm not a betting woman, but I would put a lot of money on that if I was. I think it with podcasting, if you are consistent and if you stick with it, and the most important aspect by far is having a strong point of view. Not saying to go into the manosphere, but having a strong point of view on your topic that you love, that you're covering, that your podcast is about. I actually think that there's a chance for many people to actually develop a brand that's recognized in the space, but it really is. Is something that takes consistency. And I, I saw another stat, something along the lines of it takes around a hundred episode for interview format podcasts to actually get traction. Now the get traction. I think that can mean different things to different people. But you think about the people who would have that consistency when week after week they're paying money, because most likely you're gonna have some production support or an editor, and it's. It will most of the time feel like you're screaming into a void. And the vast majority of people will just give up.
- [28:25]
A
Yeah. And something like. I think it's like the average new podcast gets like 140 downloads per episode a week in its, like, first few episodes at least, which is very low.
- [28:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. And you hear those numbers, and no. No wonder people feel like they need to give up, because also, very few podcasts. If you look at the asymmetric outcomes of how these podcasts are actually doing financially, too. Not everyone's going to be an Alex Cooper or Joe Rogan.
- [28:51]
A
Most people are $100 million deals.
- [28:52]
B
So most people are barely making ends meet or breaking even, rather. And most people are losing money.
- [29:00]
A
I have a take here, which is that if you want to make it in media, it's not about being in a single format. It's about ubiquity. Because at the end of the day, it used to be a world where, like, build and they will come. You will make a really great fucking film, and everyone will go line up to see it in the theaters. Now I think that era has passed, and it's like, you know, build put it out there everywhere, and maybe people are gonna find it in the place that they are, meet audiences where they are. And so I have for a while thought, like, every story is gonna be like, the Elizabeth Holmes story that was written by James Carew is a great book. And then it was made into a podcast by Victoria Thompson and the team at abc, which is a fantastic podcast. Then it was a documentary by Alec G. I think Will Ferrell's producing a film called Bad Blood based on the book. And then it also was a TV series starring Amanda Seygfried. And so this is a story that, like, exists in every incarnation. There's probably tons of blog posts, tons of audience kind of content around it. And I think we live in a world where everything is gonna exist in that many different formats, and you gotta make your stuff so that it fills all those formats. And the boom in video podcasting, to me is about the fact that, like, that is the most, like, all bells and whistles form of production. But if you do it in video, you can clip it for social. It can become a transcript that people can read. It can exist on YouTube, Spotify, et cetera. It can be an Audio only product. And so the video layer is to create the content that everyone can consume from wherever they are.
- [30:28]
B
Totally, totally.
- [30:29]
A
And that's why the business is pushing this way. And it's not like everyone's gonna be watching podcasts. I see in my show the science ones or the ones with kids really pop off on YouTube in a way. The more female ones, like where I asked Tamsen Fadal what's a woman's prime, et cetera, those do well in audio format. Like, it's just. It's kind of all over the map, you know, like the music focused ones do really well on Spotify.
- [30:51]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [30:51]
A
You know. Cause they're. So you're meeting people where they are.
- [30:53]
B
Totally. And I think what is required now to be someone who excels in podcasting, but really any media format is looking at your distribution through the lens of more of a business person versus a creative. So you see the people who do really well, they, of course they're not doing it themselves, they hire the teams, but they understand that the distribution. And I like how you said it, meeting people where they are is essential. You can't just be. There's no world in which even YouTube people. You're not just going to be a YouTube person anymore. You have to be all across. And I think that's. That's the future. We're never going back to a world where you can really exist on one platform. You have to be really comfortable cutting and sharing all of your content across every platform.
- [31:36]
A
Is podcasting overhyped?
- [31:38]
B
Okay, so this is my take on it. It if you want to make a lot of money in podcasting and you are starting from ground zero, it is a little overhyped, it is a little frothy. And the reason why I say that is I'll be really honest about my situation. So I started on the social media journey four years ago. I've built my following to now half a million people across channels. And that's primarily short form. With that being said, I launched the podcast May of 2025. I signed with a network and I thought that this was going to be off to the races. And I make a very comfortable living through my social channels. And expectations that I had from multiple people were that, you know, you should be able to get this off the ground and have revenue that's closer to in line with what your short form content is. And at least from my time doing this for 10 or so months, that has not been the case.
- [32:29]
A
So, okay, I think it's good to be specific and we should talk about how much we make from this.
- [32:34]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:34]
A
So I can, I'm happy to be honest about those numbers as well. Like last year, the show, which was, you know, nine months in at that point, had made, was in like a comfortable six figures of revenue from the show and through sponsorships largely, and then also like it helps feed a speaking business, which is bigger than that.
- [32:52]
B
Yeah.
- [32:52]
A
So like I can go do events, I can go do, et cetera. And that's where I got the bulk of my money. I make more than I was making as a journalist.
- [33:02]
B
Yep.
- [33:02]
A
Because I own the content fully. I don't have a network, I don't pay 30% to anyone. Of course I have costs, et cetera, to look into. But I felt like the revenue is like a healthy kind of mid six figures revenue. And this year I hope it hits seven.
- [33:13]
B
Yep.
- [33:14]
A
And it's largely gonna be driven by podcasting.
- [33:16]
B
Yep.
- [33:16]
A
How does that compare to like where you are sitting?
- [33:18]
B
So for my social business, I'm in seven figure territory.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah.
- [33:23]
B
For podcasting it's around 10% of that. It's significantly smaller.
- [33:31]
A
But your social business is seven figures in revenue.
- [33:34]
B
Yeah. Top line revenue.
- [33:35]
A
Top line revenue. And your, your podcast business is six figures in profit, right?
- [33:39]
B
In profit, yeah.
- [33:40]
A
So there's.
- [33:41]
B
With my network, and this is the case with many networks, you usually do some kind of distribution split and so I can share mine. Mine's 30% goes to my network, 70% goes to me. When I was getting started, to be fair, I did not know jack shit about podcasting. All I knew is that you have a conversation because I filmed everything on short form with my phone. I didn't know the camera setup, I didn't know the lighting, all this stuff. So it was really nice to have a producer on the network side who is amazing, shout out Morgan to just help me understand how to set it up. And I was supposed to film at all these studios. For various reasons, none of the studios ended up working out. So very early on into my journey, I decided to bite the bullet and actually build a studio from the ground up in la, where I live. And that was really scary because I was putting in this capital investment fund.
- [34:34]
A
How much was it it to build it?
- [34:35]
B
It was, but when I say build, obviously wasn't building walls. It's probably a room that is a grand total of 350 square feet. And everything from the equipment to the lighting to soundproofing. Yes, soundproofing, all of that. It ended up coming around 15 grand. My mentality was I was taking a leap of faith. I knew obviously I would make that money back, but I didn't know what I didn't know as well. And there were a lot of technical issues early on. Like even when happened when I was interviewing, interviewing someone, which was literally my worst nightmare. But I took a leap of faith. I didn't realize that the economic side of podcasting would be as hard as it is. However, what I will say, going back to what you just spoke about, the keynotes and speaking and all of that stuff, there is absolutely an intangible value that comes, especially if you're doing an interview style and you get to speak with guests that have a large following of themselves or, or are associated with a business that is really well known. You do get additional opportunities. Like I am certain because of the people that have come on my podcast. I speak with a lot of CEOs and I've had even deals that have then developed into social posts that have come from speaking to a CEO who said, oh, I love that conversation with Sammy. We're doing this. This. Yeah. Keynote or we're just launching a campaign and we would love her to talk about my business.
- [36:01]
A
Yeah. So that's very interesting because for me, that gets into all kinds of editorial questions. I think that how you build a business in this thing is complicated for journalists because in journalism there's a real wall up between the business side and the editorial side. And I own this company fully. And so therefore, the sponsorships that I had to help launch this podcast were like relationships that people who had followed my work, believed in me, thought I could do something. You know, those were where I signed those. Now I had to keep the editorial, the episode separate from what I call the sponsored dumb question, which is my big ad unit. And I'm very thoughtful about which brands I want to be in business with and I'm very thoughtful about which speaking opportunities I'll take. You know, I did Infosys. I went and did a bunch of stuff with them because I don't cover that company and I'm happy to go and do an interview. And I also still don't pre vet my questions, don't get scripted by clients. And I have all these kind of editorial.
- [36:57]
B
Do you get pushback on the question piece on not sending the questions ahead of time?
- [37:01]
A
Yeah, I send topics, but I also like, I never send questions to any guest on this show and I would never agree to doing an interview where I like off topic.
- [37:09]
B
Yeah, I just wouldn't. Yep.
- [37:11]
A
Yeah, it's not interesting to me, I don't think it's interesting for the person coming because it's like you want to come on a show and show that you gave a real interview. If you want to go have like a little like massage, like go to a foot spa, don't come to a podcast with a journalist.
- [37:23]
B
So you're saying that if you, if a tier a celebrity came to you or, or rather, maybe, I don't know, you were connected to a tier a celebrity, you would turn them down if it was a requirement that you had to send over the questions in advance and get.
- [37:36]
A
Okay, yeah, 100%.
- [37:37]
B
Yep.
- [37:38]
A
I mean, I've done that. Why? I mean, also it's going to make a less good conversation because they're going to have the questions and then what, you're going to have the whole questions scripted? I mean, we're doing this with like no notes, basically. Like, the most interesting conversations I've had are when they go places that are unexpected.
- [37:52]
B
Yeah.
- [37:53]
A
And the whole premise of my show is that I can ask anything I want. Like, nothing's too dumb, nothing's too small, nothing's too big. I've been to conferences and done things with like, principals, billionaires, et cetera, where like, their team has told me, you cannot ask about this.
- [38:06]
B
Yeah.
- [38:06]
A
It cannot get political, it cannot go wherever. And then I'll get to the event and I'll say, let me have five minutes with that person before I get on stage with them. And I say, your team told me all this stuff. And they invariably say, you can ask me whatever the hell you want. Really? Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, your team told me this, but I know you can put on your big boy pants or your big girl pants and do the conversation. And they told me, yeah.
- [38:24]
B
Wow.
- [38:26]
A
It's often people protecting the person.
- [38:28]
B
Yeah.
- [38:29]
A
It's not the principal who wants that. And I think about smart girl dumb questions as having three types of guests. They're like big name people you've heard of already, you've seen them elsewhere. And why am I having them on the show? Not just for their big names, but because I think I can get a different kind of conversation with them. I can talk to Mark Cuban in a more different, more even way than like, you might hear him elsewhere, diplo, et cetera. It's unhinged that one two people you never think to ask questions to. But you can learn something from like doormen as cultural anthropologists, 11 year olds on, like, what's actually happening in the anxious generation as members of it or so called anxious generation. And the third is like real experts whose content is so dry where I can through levity like make it candied broccoli and they can or broccoli candy, you know, and it can be kind of fun. So that's the three kinds of conversations I'm trying to have on this show.
- [39:14]
B
Do you find that and I guess this is more of a double click question for me. I find that When I interview CEOs of public companies I have to go through so many rounds and I full disclosure, I do send topics and like high level questions. I always say to the team, there's a good chance that we're gonna get into follow up questions that are not listed and like you'll just have to roll with it. But for a conversation with, I have one on Wednesday with a CEO of a very well known company that's public.
- [39:44]
A
So what? They're public. I mean I think that's the whole point is like they're supposed to be able to provide information. It's all the, it's. For me it's all the more important As a publicly traded company CEO who has like a fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders who are by the way the public who consume information through the media, through podcasts like ours that they have access to information now of course, like around earnings period. There's always a bit of a wall when you deal with public company CEOs and I'm very cognizant of like kind of not wanting to do an interview during that time because. But it's also okay to have someone on and they say something and you say, well you're kind of talking your book. Yeah, and I do that a lot. I think it's important. And what I have learned from making stuff, from reading every single comment that has come in to any of the films I've made, podcasts I've made, produced or hosted, is that people are really actually quite intelligent and astute. And so what they want you to do as a host is that when you're in this chair, you are asking questions for them. They don't get the opportunity to sit down with, you know, Neil Degrasse Tyson or Reid Hoffman who you're gonna have on. So they want you to ask the questions that they have for that individual and also know what is interesting to ask, you know, long segue. But I think that sometimes I do question, like when I was watching the Manosphere documentary that we were talking about earlier, one moment where I felt like really validated in what I do is when there was, there was this clip on Myron's show where they show a clip of somebody who says that every single man a woman has slept with has left DNA of that man inside of her and that's why your baby might look like her ex's baby. And I was like, this is such wild shit. And Louis calls it out in the documentary as like, this is misinformation. And I think part of what I really appreciate about my journalistic training is that like, I can weed out misinformation very quickly and I can be protective in that sense, but also ask questions. Like, during the pandemic there was this missed opportunity in media where people had questions about the efficacy the safety of particularly the vaccine that we didn't address in a real way. And people then drove to outlets that would answer those questions, maybe without the same fact basis or science that traditional journalism would require before we can publish or print something. And so I've interviewed Dr. Fauci, I've interviewed Jay Bhattacharya, who's the now head of the nih. I myself, when I was going to get the vaccine pulled over on the side of the street and was like, is this gonna like screw up my ability to have a kid? Because MRNA sounds like DNA and DNA is like. And I was a person who had like interviewed the Biontech founders, like or produced an interview with the bio and tech founders for the Times. And I was having this question, so why, like, I wanna create a space where people can ask questions, but also where I can do the journalism of like being, you know, an objective, good journalist, fact based journalist who can push back and find the answers. And that's what I'm trying to do. I also wonder if it's like a distinction without a difference in today's. What do you think?
- [42:35]
B
Well, I actually, I have a follow up question for you because I've actually been meaning to ask a journalist, like a truly trained journalist this question and you're the perfect person to ask this. Do you find with today's media landscape? And I actually, maybe I'm guilty of this because just let the record show I am not a trained journalist. I get called journalists sometimes and for me that's actually a little bit of a trigger because I have never claimed to be a journalist. I have not had that professional training that you really need to, I believe, call yourself a journalist. We've seen all of the stats that say that legacy news sources are dying out. People get most of their news at Least younger generations get most of their news from social media. Now, how do you feel as a journalist with this rise of people who may not be credentialed journalists sharing news? And I'm asking this actually, as someone who I kind of feel like I fallen. Not kind of. I do fall into that camp of reporting. And I say that also in air quotes on stuff that's happening in the news.
- [43:40]
A
I think it's very funny. I remember having a conversation with Colin and Samir where, like, I was like, we're kind of like journalists. And they balked and they were, like, offended at the title. Right. So it's like, there is a huge distrust in media. That is a real thing. Like, I think it's now a third of Americans have some or much trust in media, which means, like, two thirds of people do not have trust, even some trust in media right now, so. Or a fair amount, I think, is the Gallup requirement for that question. But I think about it a lot in the sense of, like, what's filling that space? Look, I didn't go to journalism school, but I worked at the Times. I know how to fact check something, how to source something, how to file a foia, how to make sure that I'm allowing everyone comment time, et cetera. Like, all the kind of principles and protocols and ethics of journalism. But I remember having a conversation with Jason Calacanis and All in, and he said something like, well, the media doesn't fact check anymore. It doesn't fact check. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, the New York Times fact checks, the Wall Street Journal fact checks. Like, everyone's fact checking. Like, do you fact check all in. And he's like, well, our audience fact checks us. I'm like, what does that mean? You know? So I think what Joe Rogan does very well is that Joe Rogan is very curious about everyone he speaks to. Is he sometimes, like, curious to a fault where, like, he's not confronting one piece of information with another? Like, I mean, that could be a critique you have of him. But I think in general, Joe Rogan is, like, asking questions. He's not. People want to cast him as a manosphere. People want to cast him on the right. I think it's kind of unfair, actually. I think he's not a journalist, and he wouldn't say he's a journalist, but he's. He's definitely. There's interesting reporting coming out of his interviews every time he's with a newsmaker.
- [45:10]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [45:10]
A
I don't know if that Answers, but
- [45:11]
B
no, no, it does. It does. I think that the lines are getting increasingly even more blurried now that you have Wall Street Journal, New York Times that are doing video recording, and that's showing up in your feed just alongside these other people who are reporting on the news. So the lines are getting blurrier than ever.
- [45:29]
A
I think it will be a tension and we'll see what wins. But I think it's smart that journalistic organizations are updating their distribution to not just have everyone on their platform and as subscribers, but be everywhere the audiences are to our earlier point. And I think that the value of the thing will. Will prove to be true or not in an AI world. I think actually human reporting will be important to a certain extent. And I also think that AI neutrality will also have a value. Now, of course, you have to wonder if that data is itself biased.
- [46:05]
B
So what was the scariest thing about starting the podcast?
- [46:08]
A
For me, I think it's like, is anyone gonna watch and listen? And because I was doing it without an audience, unlike you, I didn't have hundreds of thousands of followers on social media. What I did have was like. And this is the people I really wanted to thank in my iHeart speech as well, is like, when I was on air with Kara Swisher, I would get notes from people being like, you should have your own show, or, like, you should do this. I love hearing you. And, like. And I got that kind of feedback from some CEOs and some guests on the show, but I also got it from a lot of listeners who would write in. And so that gave me a lot of confidence. But I was scared that the scale was not there, because there are not barriers to starting a podcast, really. Like, anyone can do it with a microphone and a camera, but there are barriers to scaling. And so I was scared about that and falling flat on my face. That was the scariest part of it for me. And a year in, I feel like I've crossed that cliff. I also had this big privacy concern of someone who's covered tech and putting my voice and face out there in such a big way, in a time where we live in a world of deep fakes and revenge porn and everything else that comes out of that. It was scary, actually, for me to put myself out there. What about you?
- [47:12]
B
So. So I was able to get over that fear of putting myself out there because I had already been doing it for a while. But I think for me, it was this fear in a different lens. It was the fear of putting so much time and Effort into something where I see everything as a potential time allocator. Right. And I felt like there was an opportunity cost to doing this and putting time into it when that time could go towards putting an extra 1, 2, 3 episodes, or not episodes, but short form videos out per week. And so I was worried about that. I think going back to where I feel about it today, 10 months in. Going back to your. Also what you said around doing something that you love, I think it was in regards to a co founder of. Would you want to do this for a thousand times over? I found out very early on to podcasting. I think it may have even been the first episode where I was like, I. I love this. I love every element of it because I, even though I'm not a journalist, I love the research element. I love thinking through, how to structure it, the conversation that's had, getting new insights out of a person. So I knew I loved the format. I think where I'm at today is I'm still trying to get to a point of saturation in the podcast world that I feel good about, but I also see that the conversations that I'm having have led to other opportunities and. And getting familiar also with the back end of really owning a production has also opened my eyes to other opportunities that I'm gonna be getting into soon that I'm really excited about. Oh, what's going on? Well, it's gonna be essentially like a livestream show and so. And going full circle with the manosphere. Right. I think I saw that and I was like, okay, this is additional validation that what I'm gonna do is the right move. But yeah, I think it was a really good confidence booster in being able to own a vision and execution and distribution all on my own.
- [49:05]
A
That has been the hardest part for me is like, thinking about the ad side of the business because, like, for me, I really love it. But I feel I've been lucky and, like, that's kind of the values I got from my parents. Like, do something that you feel is meaningful and that you really want to do, because everything else is, like, not gonna, like, leave this world with you.
- [49:19]
B
Yeah.
- [49:20]
A
You know, I'm not independently wealthy or like a trustafarian, so it's not that. But I do feel like every job I've had, I would, like, have paid a museum ticket to have it, like, to work in the opinion section of the New York Times. I would have, like, paid an admission ticket to go to work every. Because the stuff I learned and how fascinating it was like, to Go make documentaries with like Bill Guttentag, a double award winning filmmaker, with Richard Linklater, like, you know, with Dick Wolf, like it's like all that. I would have like paid a ticket to get into those doors and do a thing. And I feel the same way about like this show. Like I would do it if no one was paying me to do it. And actually I did do that because about 16 episodes in to my first season. So this is in summer last year. I really thought about like, what am I doing? It was hard. I hadn't found the right production outfit to do this with. I felt I cared so much more than anyone working on the show. I was like in the nitty gritty of it in like a micro way that I didn't want to be as talent. But I was still producing it because I couldn't find people to care about it as much as I cared about it. And I was paying a lot of money for people to make it who I didn't think cared about it the same way. So in the summer I really was like, okay. And I had. And it was profitable, actually significantly. But like it wasn't giving me joy. And so in the summer I kind of pulled back. I did a few episodes. One was with Eric Adams and that one became newsy. Like I happened to ask him about something about Sanctuary Cities and Donald Trump potentially filing a lawsuit. And Donald Trump filed a lawsuit while we were sitting in the room and that like got picked up by cnn. Then it was in the New Yorker, it was in like. So it got a lot of play. And then the clips went super viral because Mayor Adams, may he rest in peace, he's still alive, don't worry. But like, but you know, he, he's just like a person that says things. Yeah, he's a good guest in that way. And so it went super viral, the clips did. And that gave me the kind of confidence of like, oh, this is what I know how to do. I know how to have a really good conversation with someone that is going to draw people in, that is going to cut through the noise, that is going to create new important information. They are gonna have a good time. I'm gonna have a good time. The audience is gonna learn something. It's gonna ask the hard questions and get through. So I was like, I can actually do it. And so I just focused. When I relaunched my season two in September was like, I'm just gonna focus on conversations I really wanna have that I would have for free.
- [51:35]
B
Yep.
- [51:36]
A
And I'm gonna put away all the ad side of it. And I didn't even have, like, a sponsorship conversation again until the end of that year. And I just focus on the editorial, and the show grew. And that, to me, is like, where the real, like, my real passion is.
- [51:50]
B
Yeah.
- [51:51]
A
Is in the long form conversations. But that was really, like, crazy time for me because I was like, I left. You give up all this identity when you leave a thing. Like, there's a certain value people give you because, like, you work at the New York Times, all these things. So giving away those parts of your identity to try to do something new is scary. Yeah, it's hard. I almost quit, and I'm glad I didn't because I beat a Kardashian circle.
- [52:16]
B
Did you find that when you were coming back in the summer, did you feel like you had anything to prove?
- [52:23]
A
No, in the sense that I felt like I had gotten the break in the thinking of making it. I mean, I do feel the need to, like, really deliver because I'm asking, you know, people like Neil DeGrasse Tyson or like, two doormen to, like, take an hour out of their day to, like, come sit with me, or, like, two hours out of their day to come sit with me. And that takes. It's like, I want to respect that person's time. I'm asking people to listen and watch that. So I feel like I need to do something good every single time.
- [52:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [52:54]
A
Like, every. It's like you're kind of in the process of making, I think, something different, something new, something that feels good.
- [52:58]
B
And I think if someone is listening this far into the episode, that means that they have some inherent interest in the podcasting world or media more broadly. So I think one thing that I wanted to share with the listeners is that as I'm hearing you talk about how you really are doing this out of a place of number one, you're really proud of all the conversations that you're having. You have a strong point of view. A lot of that has been cultivated with your journalistic lens, your time at the New York Times, your time spent with Kara Swisher. But I think the reason why people sit down to talk to you, of course, you have the pedigree, but they know that they're going to get a really. The word authentic is overused, but they're going to get an authentic conversation that is smart girl, dumb questions, caliber. And so I think so many people have this. This question around. How do I break through? I want to have these really interesting conversations on a podcast. My Advice to them is I think the best thing that you can do. If you don't have the pedigree and you can't say you came from the New York Times or you've done a podcast with some notable person or you
- [53:59]
A
have hundreds of thousands of people on
- [54:00]
B
social that follow you, it's really getting hyper focused on what your distinction will be or your point of view. I think very clearly being able to articulate that because, I mean, I get pitched, I'm sure you get pitched all of the time to go on other people's podcasts. Everyone and their mom has a podcast. So just being really clear about it, that's one thing I'm taking away from this conversation with you too, is just how very defined you are in what you're doing and the types of conversations that you have. And I respect that so much. The fact that you'll say no to someone, you know, if they're not going to be okay with you really calling the shots in the interview and asking the questions that you want to ask.
- [54:40]
A
Yeah. That people want to hear. Yeah, exactly. It's not even like from my perspective, but yeah, I think that's. That is. That is like my thing. And I believe that there is a value in this media ecosystem for people to feel that they're having that authentic conversation. I also think it's like, what's your craft? You know, like you, I think Sami are like really good at just like looking at a business and doing like a business case study of it. Like you're like doing an HBR acquired, like let me tell you what it is and distill it to its core point and make it interesting and to do that, especially in the consumer space. And so you figured out what your secret sauce is. And I think my thing is I think I'm a very good interviewer who has an ability to talk across different subjects. It's like well read and well read enough in different topics to know what I don't know and therefore to ask those questions. That is what I'm trying to do. Do what you're good at.
- [55:30]
B
Yes.
- [55:30]
A
So looking back, do you feel like you've made it in podcasting? Do you feel I've made it in podcasting?
- [55:35]
B
Have we made it? Not yet. For me, I think you've made it. I think you've made it because there's this point of traction that you get and I've certainly felt it on social media and it's almost like the thing that you're known for or it's the strongest pull that really connects you to an audience. My pull is stronger on social for sure. For me. And it's such a subjective question because everyone's gonna have a different definition of make making it. But I feel like the only time I will have made it in podcasting is when the pull that I have with an audience is as strong as my social media following. So I have a long way to go.
- [56:09]
A
When did you feel like you had made it in social? Was there a moment where you were like, oh, this thing is working, and how quickly it grew? Cause it sounds like you were saying that's like growing in a multiplying kind of like.
- [56:19]
B
Yeah.
- [56:19]
A
Versus the podcasting as a slower.
- [56:22]
B
There wasn't a turning point. I can't say it was X number of followers, but I think I had enough different types of content and videos over maybe I'd say a year. And maybe if I'm gonna get hyper specific, I think. I think 2024 and the first part of 2025, before I launched the podcast were like the really big sprint years for me on social. And that's when I grew the fastest. And then of course, since launching the podcast, I've had to kind of split my time up a lot more.
- [56:51]
A
So it's kind of like year two to four. Is that window when you really felt like it had hit the ground and it was taking off?
- [56:57]
B
Yeah, and it was, I think just the little things. Like I would go to an event or I would be walking around in New York City and I'd have people say, oh, Sammy, hi. And where I was like, whoa, okay, this is getting somewhere. And I'm having reach. Cause it's so easy to forget when you're just. I mean, you feel it too when you're doing a podcast. There's no one else in this room with us right now. You forget that people are actually consuming it.
- [57:21]
A
For me, I feel like the point at which I felt there were a couple of moments early on that like, sometimes it's like a guest of grain to do your show. Like, makes you feel good.
- [57:31]
B
Yeah.
- [57:31]
A
Like, the first conversation with Mark Cuban did really well, then Neil DeGrasse Tyson did well. But I did this conversation with two 11 year olds and Jonathan Haidt shared a clip from it. Because I asked them, do you know who Jonathan Haidt is, who wrote the book Anxious Generation? And they're like, is he a YouTuber? And that got clipped and kind of went. And that took off a little bit more on YouTube, where it got like maybe 60,000 views. Or something. So that was interesting to see that kind of conversation that wasn't from somebody famous, where, like, my bringing a spotlight onto that conversation was working, that I felt like, oh, this could have legs. And then the Eric Adams interview, which went all kinds of crazy. But there was a particular moment where I asked him outside of the new stuff, I asked him a fuck, marry, kill question, which is like a classic question on smart girl. Dumb questions made at pg, and he's like, I don't wanna make a pg. We're gonna play that clip. Yeah, I don't want pg. You don't want pg? I don't think you wanna marry or kill or. Oh, no, we're gonna do tap, trade, and toss. Kwamdani or Sliwa. Who of your opponents would you tap to be part of your administration? Oh, man. Who would you trade to another city? You got to send him to Chicago. And who would you toss out of the race entirely? Good Lord. I'm not gonna be able to tap. I'm gonna tell you that right now. I would definitely send Madani to Chicago. Cuomo needs to just get out of the race altogether. And Adoncea won't tap Curtis. I would have to find maybe one of the cats in his house. I'll tap. Who would you rather be stuck in an elevator with? Probably Madani. But that moment actually was referenced in Mayor Mamdani's inaugural speech in January. And then NBC, like, sourced it and put a clip of the mayor saying
- [59:05]
B
that he and I have had our
- [59:06]
A
share of disagreements, but I will always be touched that he chose me as the mayoral candidate that he would most
- [59:13]
B
want to be trapped with on an elevator.
- [59:16]
A
Like, that clip has, like, millions of likes, like, tens of millions of views. And then I started getting recognized for the clips. Oh, there's a sense of, like, things going viral. But then I'm so curious because everyone's in the clips game and, you know, do you feel like short form audiences go to long form follow you?
- [59:33]
B
Yes, to an extent. I think it's the people who are the really locked in followers on short form.
- [59:40]
A
Super fans.
- [59:40]
B
The super fans.
- [59:41]
A
And what percentage of your audience would you say are super fans? Like, you can probably do that conversion pretty quickly of, like, how many people tune into every episode of the podcast?
- [59:48]
B
I'd say a good.
- [59:51]
A
It's always like 1 to 5%. Right? Is what people say.
- [59:54]
B
It's definitely higher than that, but I'd say like 10 to 20% were initially out of the gate. And it's grown. Not hockey stick. It's grown like slowly, incrementally since then. But I do believe that clips nowadays are really that ultimate chance to like spike this viral moment, get mass awareness of what you're doing. And then obviously the hope. I'm sure you saw this, the people who saw the clip, they recognized the show, they recognized you. And then maybe they're like, oh, well, that was really interesting conversation. I'm gonna stick around for more.
- [60:25]
A
Yeah. Though I think a lot of people just like replace the podcast with the clips. I think there's people who are like, I watch your podcast on Instagram.
- [60:30]
B
Yeah.
- [60:30]
A
On TikTok, whatever it is. And like, that is like increasingly a thing. And as we think about the world of attention spans, like that's something that keeps me up at night a little bit. I think that the industry, the media industry will have to catch up with how to monetize those clips.
- [60:42]
B
Totally.
- [60:43]
A
How much do you make on a grid post versus a podcast episode?
- [60:46]
B
Ooh, yeah, that's a good one. Significantly higher on short form grid, like significant low range. I, I think this is me being super transparent this year. I think the lowest one I took on was. And this is how you do it too. You sign brands on for multiple. So you don't just do a one off. So like the lowest that I'll sign on for is like 14k.
- [61:07]
A
Okay.
- [61:08]
B
And then I've done ones that are, you know, tens of thousands for one. It, it depends.
- [61:13]
A
And it's like a couple of minutes of content.
- [61:14]
B
It's no, it's 45 seconds to like a hundred. You don't even do really more than 120.
- [61:21]
A
I'm like, why would you then go into the podcast world? Because how much are you making per episod episode of your podcast? Definitely not that much.
- [61:27]
B
Yeah. I would have to do the math on it, but significantly less. But it goes back to like maybe a zero less. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It comes back to the fact that I still believe, especially as someone who was building my reputation, I think in different types of circles, CEOs, executives, well known people do listen to my short form content. But I still felt like there was a difference in establishing myself in longer form content. I felt like there is something that is, is even stronger reputationally if you're able to have longer form conversations and really explain yourself and share longer form content in that way. And I believe also a huge part of why I did this, this is my mentality on everything that I'm doing in my business right now is you just have to do the thing to learn how it works. And when I started. Sounds like you started similarly, it was like, here goes nothing. I'm gonna hope for the best. But like one year in, I've been producing two episodes a week. Very soon I'm gonna be shifting to one episode a week.
- [62:28]
A
That's really smart. I'm really glad you're doing that.
- [62:29]
B
Yeah, I. Word to the wise, if you wanna do a two episode show a week, that is nuts. And I think also just speaking really frankly about it, I wanna focus on having the same caliber of conversations. But I feel like because the monetization side for me isn't quite as strong, there is an opportunity cost. And I do see the value in continuing to grow my social channels. I believe that growing my social channels is the top of funnel awareness and that will inevitably trickle down to the podcast. Cause that's what I've been seeing. But I do believe there is a world in which two episodes a week makes sense. It does if you, if you're getting the steam and you're like throwing fire on it.
- [63:13]
A
So maybe for anyone out there who's considering doing a podcast, who's listening? I wonder if we do a little bit of a lightning round of like, what makes sense. So like question one, does it make sense to have a number network? You answer than me yes.
- [63:22]
B
Because I think if you're starting from the ground zero, like I was when I was launching my podcast, it is really helpful to have someone who knows the industry, who can hold your hand through the process. It is possible to do it alone, but I think it just is helpful.
- [63:37]
A
I'm going to say it, it depends on your knowledge base. But like I chose not to have a network and part of my thinking was that I knew how to make a podcast. I didn't know how to grow a podcast. I didn't have built an audience and the network can really help you supposedly grow that. That said I was like, it's better to be everyone's girlfriend than someone's wife in your first years of doing a show. Which is that I knew a lot of people in the industry and I was like, I can get more like feed drops or trades and I can negotiate myself and I'm gonna care more. And I wanna have all the creative freedom that comes from owning your own product. So I'm gonna say like, no, actually go independent because it's easier to do a deal when you own your own RSS feed and your own IP and then you're licensing it versus someone else owns it. And builds it with you and they own it in perpetuity.
- [64:18]
B
With that being said, though, I will say, like, I. I'm signed with the network. They don't own my RSS feed. Yeah.
- [64:23]
A
Okay. What about agents? I signed with an agency in December, caa.
- [64:26]
B
Yes. And I just signed with Made by All, with, which is a digital first agency. I fought this for four years. I did not want to sign for a while. And then I thought that eventually I got to a point where I realized that there are synergies and opportunities that really do come with having a team behind you. And jury's still out, because I'm still. But I do think that for where I am in my career, it was the right move. What about you?
- [64:53]
A
I feel like I'm excited because I wanted a thought partner in the process, and I have a great team at CAA who is doing that. Like, I joke that, like, when you first sign on, it's like you're just 10% poorer. People are congratulating you. But, like, I think over time, the opportunities that come from doing this, like, the opportunity to do a book, the opportunity to do more speaking, the opportunity to maybe do TV and news deals, all those were incoming and I didn't have good counsel on, like, how. How to do it. And these agencies have seen hundreds of these deals. Know what the term should look like. So I think there is, like, actually value to doing an agency deal.
- [65:27]
B
Definitely.
- [65:27]
A
What about co founders?
- [65:30]
B
Co founders? As in co founders for the media business?
- [65:32]
A
Yeah.
- [65:33]
B
I like the idea. I don't personally have one. I think no to start, but that could change. And when I say that could change, I think that that's. If you are building out multiple media verticals, it's really helpful to have a thought partner on the business side or. But initially, you definitely don't need one. I think if you're creative, you're savvy, you're able to understand the landscape, you don't need to give up. I would imagine 50% of the equity in what you're building right out of the gate. But I think for the right person, perhaps.
- [66:04]
A
I think my answer to this is like, the number one piece of advice I give to anyone who's starting a podcast is do something you want to do a thousand times and do it with someone you want to do it a thousand times with. And if you don't have that person, then do it yourself. Yeah, I think that is really important because it is a grind. You want to love the format, you're not going to pretend to be someone you're not a thousand times. You're not going to pretend to love a topic that you don't love a thousand times. And so for me, the co founder is the same thing. If you have that person that exists, great. And if not, go it on your own. I really, after years of producing, writing questions for other people, et cetera, I was just excited to, to do it for myself in my own voice fully and felt that had resonance as a result of that.
- [66:48]
B
Yeah.
- [66:48]
A
So I wanna end this with like, where is this all heading? And so artificial intelligence.
- [66:52]
B
Yes.
- [66:52]
A
I just heard a fascinating episode on the Colin and Samir show about one of the first like really breakout hit AI generated podcasts. And there is a person who has done, I think it's now over a hundred episodes of the Epstein Files, an AI generated podcast that basically takes all of the information and uses kind of Claude's own Opus 4.6 newest models to generate and then like within boundaries, fact check, et cetera. I don't know he was describing his process, but like the entire thing is plug and play to the point of upload. Even like quality checks itself with certain parameters that it needs a certain score to get up to be able to publish the AI shift. I'm curious how you think about it and I'm gonna tell you how I think about it a little bit. I think all of a sudden in person, live and interviews, which have been taken down a notch because like everyone's like, oh, everybody has interview podcast. But that chem chemistry you get between two people can be very hard to replace.
- [67:46]
B
100.
- [67:47]
A
So that's my thing. Live, in person chemistry.
- [67:50]
B
Yep.
- [67:50]
A
With your guests.
- [67:51]
B
I, I agree. I think, you know, Gary Vaynerchuk talks about this all the time, of how there's this spectrum that's continuing to widen and both sides of the spectrum are what people are going to be doubling down into AI and mass generated content is one of them. And that's inescapable. Right. Because it's like the water's already flowing down the mountain. You can't fight that. But on the other side is how do you lean into the human element? And I agree with you, I chemistry between humans in whatever way possible is going to be what I'm the most bullish on. If you look at like a notebook. LM right. And you just see how it interacts, it's still not the same as a human. And I think there will be a premium for human content that's made by humans.
- [68:33]
A
Someone told me like the real Secret sauce of morning television is will they or will they not fuck?
- [68:42]
B
What if it's the Voice?
- [68:43]
A
I mean, I don't know, but, like, that was like the origin theory. And this came from, like a very. This came from a really, like, old TV exec who kind of knew the world. And I don't think it's like that in the Huda days or, you know, like, that has gone away. But what brought people in was like this kind of kinetic quality of the relationship between the two people that they're watching.
- [69:03]
B
Yeah.
- [69:04]
A
And so I think there's something that will still exist. And I mean, I'm not into having to watch it. Bots. There's probably a YouTube channel for that, for people who are into watching bots, you know, get it on. But it's not for me. Like, the intellectual chemistry between two people is what kind of keeps you there.
- [69:19]
B
But then you hear of the other side of how people are predicting that individuals are going to be marrying AI. Relationships with AI. Yeah. So do you think that there's a world in which people do really want the AI and maybe there's a smaller cohort that wants the human connection?
- [69:35]
A
Yeah, I think that people are still, like, fascinated by the human connection. The impossibility of it. Like, someone was telling me the other day they love watching live anything because they know it hasn't happened yet. I thought it was such a pretty way to talk about a thing. The beauty of that possibility in a world where so much feels canned and cooked and presented to you and polished, something that's beautiful about live. I think there will be value of AI in particularly again, the objectification of news presentation. You'll think that this thing is more objective because it's not a person. So, like, we're seeing a pull towards. I trust this person. I think we're also gonna see a pull towards I trust this model, I trust this entity. It'll have to prove its trust to you, but that will be a reality of, like, what we're pushing up against. I'm curious about it. I don't know enough. I have a ton of dumb questions about it, but I was speaking to a super, like, successful exited tech founder the other day and I asked him how long until my job is replaced? And he said, your job is okay for the next five, 10 years, because it happens, has that chemistry quality and you have audience. So this guy's like, should I start a podcast? By the way, I get like at least 10 people telling me a week that they want to start a podcast. Like Friends.
- [70:44]
B
Yeah.
- [70:44]
A
Do you.
- [70:45]
B
All the time.
- [70:46]
A
And what do you do? Do you want to do take all their calls and give them all advice?
- [70:49]
B
I can't. No, I can't.
- [70:50]
A
Now we'll send them to this.
- [70:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally, I'm just gonna have, like, it link to episode. This is meta, but like an AI. You know how you can. Like, on meta, you can have it, like, plugged for keywords, and you can automatically send out messages. That's what I'll do.
- [71:03]
A
Speaking of dumb questions, I had every episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions, asking what my guest is dumb about, a dumb question you have that you haven't been able to figure out the answer to. What you got.
- [71:12]
B
So my dumb question is about AI. Cause we were just talking about that. When will we reach the point of knowing that we've hit AGI? Artificial general intelligence.
- [71:22]
A
Yeah. And then superintelligence.
- [71:24]
B
And superintelligence itself.
- [71:25]
A
Beyond that. Well, you know, Sami, I can answer this question for you. I can direct you to an episode of the podcast Smart Girl Dumb Questions, which Geoffrey Hinton answers this question and does, like, a four, four layer thing of how AI actually works. Jeffrey Hinton won the Nobel Prize, but he was part of the team that built, like, the neural network that AI is based upon. So he explains how it actually ingests information and in the process, actually explains how your mind works.
- [71:49]
B
All right, I need to listen to.
- [71:49]
A
You need to listen to that episode. You gotta listen to that episode. Anyways, that's it for this week. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. Thank you, Sammy, so much for being with me.
- [71:56]
B
This is so much fun. Thank you. This is great.
- [72:02]
A
I entered that conversation smart about podcasting, and I entered really dumb about social media. And I think Sammy just schooled me on it. And it was so interesting to talk to her about her experience of having built a kind of empire on social media and translating that into podcasts, versus what I'm trying to do, which is build a bit of an empire in podcasting and translate that into social. So I don't know. I learned a lot in that conversation. I hope you did too. I hope if you're thinking about starting a podcast, if you are wondering how the media ecosystem is going to change, if you think you're going to be the next member of the manosphere and you're somehow still listening to this podcast, hopefully it was useful to you. I want to hear what you think. You can write me@naimaraza101mail.com. You can call us 1-855-MYDUMBQ or you can slide into our DMs because we have to grow that social audience so we can be anything like Sammy. It's martgirldom questions wherever you social. And please, please check out Sami's podcast. It's called Social Currency. It's so good, I really recommend it. I love the interviews she has and even more I love these one on one conversations she has. You the audience are the other one and she breaks down industries ideas like the kind of consumerism of our current world and I think she's so sharp at it. So definitely check that out. This episode was produced with Desta Wonderad Melissa Lee Gibson. It was edited by the wonderful Darlena Chiem. It was mixed and engineered by Johnny Simon. Thank you to Spotify Studios for having us in your space in New York and Millie and Chloe and the team here. See you guys next week for an all new smart girl Dumb questions. Sam.