"John Lithgow"

Summary

SmartLess Podcast Episode Summary

Title: John Lithgow
Host/Authors: Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Will Arnett
Release Date: March 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of SmartLess, hosts Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and Will Arnett are delighted to welcome the esteemed actor John Lithgow. The conversation delves deep into Lithgow's illustrious career, his early beginnings in theater, his notable roles, personal anecdotes, and his approach to acting. Throughout the episode, guests share heartfelt and humorous moments, offering listeners an intimate glimpse into Lithgow’s life and craft.

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Early Life and Theatrical Beginnings

John Lithgow recounts his introduction to acting at the tender age of two, participating in a production of Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House alongside his father.

• John Lithgow [07:18]: "I was a theater rat from... the first acting I ever did, I was about two years old, one of Nora's children in A Doll's House with my father playing Torvald."

Growing up in a family deeply rooted in theater, Lithgow was exposed to Shakespearean productions through his father's Shakespeare festivals. This immersion fostered his passion for acting from a young age.

• John Lithgow [08:12]: "From a very young age, I thought I should be an artist. I wanted to be an artist."

Lithgow attended Harvard, majoring in English, history, and literature. Despite his scholarly pursuits, his environment naturally steered him toward acting, leading him to become a campus star.

• John Lithgow [11:30]: "I had just been around actors... I had lived in that world, so it just came very naturally."

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Career Highlights and Notable Roles

John Lithgow's versatility as an actor shines through as he discusses his diverse roles across television, film, and theater.

Third Rock from the Sun

Lithgow reflects on his time in the sitcom Third Rock from the Sun, describing it as one of the happiest periods of his acting career.

• John Lithgow [16:39]: "I absolutely loved it. Just, I consider those... It was like the six happiest years as an actor."

He also shares humorous behind-the-scenes moments, including awkward interactions with co-stars and memorable on-set experiences.

The Crown: Portraying Winston Churchill

A significant highlight of the conversation is Lithgow's portrayal of Winston Churchill in The Crown. He discusses the depth and complexity of bringing such an iconic figure to life.

• John Lithgow [27:02]: "I have to play Emperor Alfred... He was quite an anomaly, and I think that came in handy."

Lithgow emphasizes the personal aspects of Churchill, exploring his childhood insecurities and personal struggles, which added layers to his performance.

• John Lithgow [28:33]: "He was growing up a failure with very neglectful parents and just feeling like a screw up."

Conclave and Other Projects

Lithgow also touches upon his recent work in Conclave, highlighting the collaborative effort with a talented cast and the challenges of shooting in diverse locations like Rome.

• John Lithgow [31:35]: "That was a fabulous job. That was two months in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Rosselli."

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Approach to Acting and Craft

Lithgow shares his philosophy on acting, emphasizing adaptability and the importance of collaboration with fellow actors.

• John Lithgow [32:20]: "We don't do nearly as much choosing as everybody thinks we do. You just wait. You wait for good things and good people and good writers."

He discusses how interacting with exceptionally talented actors like Ralph Fiennes and Geoffrey Rush enriches his own performances, creating a dynamic on-screen synergy.

• John Lithgow [43:49]: "There's a minimum of two, because it's all about the interaction and playing off each other."

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Personal Life and Balancing Act

Balancing a demanding acting career with personal life, Lithgow speaks candidly about his family dynamics and the logistics of living between Los Angeles, New York, and London.

• John Lithgow [37:06]: "I've been married 43 years to my wife Mary... We have a little cabin on a lake in northwestern Montana and we... That's kind of our runaway place."

He highlights the support of his wife, Mary, a UCLA professor, and the importance of maintaining a stable home environment amidst his international commitments.

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Anecdotes and Behind-the-Scenes Stories

Throughout the episode, Lithgow shares entertaining anecdotes that showcase his humorous side and the unpredictable nature of acting.

Golden Crutch Award Incident

Will Arnett recounts a high school incident where he tripped while accepting an award, leading to an embarrassing yet humorous moment.

• Will Arnett [54:29]: "I had it in my hand and I tripped and I knocked the tooth out of Missy Vogelsinger's mouth."

• Sean Hayes [55:37]: "And it was so, very embarrassing."

Tony Award Mishap

Lithgow describes a memorable moment during a Tony Award-winning performance where he inadvertently exposed himself on stage, navigating the situation with professionalism and humor.

• John Lithgow [56:06]: "I reached down and sort of flicked it inside my... And I would say that was by far the most embarrassing."

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Reflections on the Acting Industry

Lithgow offers insightful commentary on the challenges actors face, including the unpredictability of roles and the emotional impact of being cut from projects.

• John Lithgow [59:01]: "I must have the record for the most Tony awards won by actors in roles that I turned down."

He emphasizes the importance of resilience and maintaining trust in the creative process, advising young actors to embrace opportunities and remain open to collaboration.

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Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Lithgow expresses his gratitude for the opportunity to share his experiences on SmartLess, highlighting the enriching conversations and the enduring connections within the acting community.

• John Lithgow [64:03]: "It's real. I've always loved this show and I was very honored to be on it."

The hosts and Lithgow share a heartfelt farewell, celebrating the depth and breadth of his career and the lasting impact of his work in the entertainment industry.

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Notable Quotes

• John Lithgow [07:18]: "I was a theater rat from... the first acting I ever did..."
• John Lithgow [27:02]: "...this is no small thing."
• John Lithgow [28:33]: "He was growing up a failure with very neglectful parents..."
• John Lithgow [32:20]: "We don't do nearly as much choosing as everybody thinks we do."
• John Lithgow [43:49]: "There's a minimum of two, because it's all about the interaction..."
• John Lithgow [59:01]: "...the most Tony awards won by actors in roles that I turned down."

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This episode of SmartLess offers an engaging and comprehensive exploration of John Lithgow's career and personal life, enriched with humor, heartfelt moments, and profound insights into the art of acting. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to Lithgow's work, this conversation provides valuable perspectives on his enduring legacy in the entertainment world.

Transcript

[Will Arnett]

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[Jason Bateman]

Hey, guys, you hear that creek in the door? That's the opening to the cold.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, wow.

[Sean Hayes]

Stop trying to explain the cold open. Every time we do a cold open. Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Creaking the door.

[Jason Bateman]

Are you guys up for a podcast record?

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, we got a great guest today. I can't. I don't know, but I can't wait to talk to Bruce. It's going to be.

[Jason Bateman]

Somebody. Fire up the music. Welcome to a new Smartless.

[John Lithgow]

Smart, smart, less.

[Sean Hayes]

Smart less.

[Jason Bateman]

Did you go late last night? Willie? How's it going, listener? We're in. We're in. The second day of what? The business recalls principal photography on. On Will's. Yeah, Will's project. And so far, so good. That's what I'm thinking.

[Sean Hayes]

So far, so good, man. You know, who knows? Who knows? So far so good.

[Will Arnett]

I love it.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, but you know, a lot. Like, if something's going to be sideways, you can. You can smell it on the first day.

[Sean Hayes]

Yes. And. And no. It feels. Yeah, it feels good. I mean, you know.

[Will Arnett]

Do you want me to take a.

[Sean Hayes]

Look at the footage or do you mind?

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, you just said.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. Happy to do a pass.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, I'll just email and then a minute later. Couple things already. Wait, JB how's your thing going? How are you feeling down there?

[Jason Bateman]

Great, great. Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, that's good.

[Jason Bateman]

But I'm back home with the. With the kitties and the mommy. And I saw Franny's. Franny's doing a musical. Her show at. At her school as a senior. It's. Tonight is the final night. They're doing Mean Girls that Tina Fey did with her husband. The book and music with Jeff.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

I would have loved to have gone to see that.

[Jason Bateman]

Really good. Oh, wow, what a great show. I wish I would have seen it on Broadway, too.

[Will Arnett]

Does she have a big part?

[Jason Bateman]

She does, yeah.

[Will Arnett]

That's great.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, it's very. I'm very proud of her.

[Will Arnett]

Will I see you tomorrow, Jason?

[Jason Bateman]

Yes. You know.

[Will Arnett]

Okay. Great. Great.

[Jason Bateman]

No, well, wait.

[Sean Hayes]

Yes.

[Jason Bateman]

You know, Are you going or are you.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, you're going to the. A little gathering, a little party thing.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. What are you going to do? You going to.

[Will Arnett]

I'm going to skip that and I'm going to go to our friend's house.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, you're going to go to that gathering, J.B. yeah, yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Now, Willie, what are you. What are you going to do for the big listener? We're talking about Hollywood's self congratulatory evening of the Oscars, right?

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah. Right, right, right, right. We're. We're taping this on the eve of the Oscars, right?

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. So, Willie, you're going to. You going to watch with some friends at all or are you going to study your lines and go to bed early?

[Sean Hayes]

I think that if I had been there, I would have gone with you guys to that. I wouldn't have skipped. I would have come with you. I probably would have come in the car with you and Amanda like we've done before. Yeah. And Sean and Scotty. But I guess Sean is too big for that now or something.

[Jason Bateman]

I don't know.

[John Lithgow]

Huge.

[Sean Hayes]

Well, he wanted Tony. And then he's like, I don't have time for it.

[Jason Bateman]

I need a follow van.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, yeah. No, you guys. I drove you guys.

[Jason Bateman]

He was gonna carry my shoes.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, you did. You did. No, we remember. We met at my last year. We met at my house and I came down. Cause I was still putting on my tox or whatever it was, and I just hear Jason. I just hear Jason rummaging through my pantry looking for stuff.

[Will Arnett]

And also rummaging through my nose. He pulled my nose hairs out.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, yes.

[Jason Bateman]

You know, there was a lot of cameras on these nights. You know, it's not a radio thing.

[Will Arnett]

He. He really did.

[Sean Hayes]

You know what? It's funny that we're talking about this big night, because our guest today, and this is Will.

[Jason Bateman]

What do you got a lunch?

[Sean Hayes]

Well, no, but normally we. Normally. Normally you're like, oh, what's the segue? And this couldn't be more perfect, like, the moment you mention it, because. Well, first of all, he's had. He's been nominated for two Academy Awards.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, my God.

[Sean Hayes]

And Yeah, Yeah. I mean, he's been nominated for, I don't know, 12 Emmys. He's won six.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, this isn't some garbage. Guest.

[Sean Hayes]

No, no, no. Buckle up, you guys.

[Will Arnett]

This is.

[Sean Hayes]

Every once in a while, we class it up over here. And this, to me, is like, gold standard. Class it up. Actors. Actor. I mean, this is one of those guys that I. Every performance of his, I adore. I love watching him. And we all have over the years. He won a Tony in his Broadway debut, Sean, so take that.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah. So he's got you licked. And then he. He's gone on to have so many more awards and nations that it's countless. I think he's got, like, two or three Golden Globes. He's got all sorts of. I mean, it's just incredible. And we know him from. He wanted Tony for the Changing Room. He was nominated for the World According to Garp. We loved him on third Rock for the Sun. I loved him.

[Will Arnett]

Let's go.

[Sean Hayes]

John Lithgow.

[Jason Bateman]

Gentlemen.

[Sean Hayes]

Gentlemen.

[Will Arnett]

This is so exciting. Wait, and John, you just got cast in Harry Potter. Your Dumbledore.

[John Lithgow]

There's all sorts of news. Gentlemen.

[Jason Bateman]

So much stuff.

[Will Arnett]

So excited. We were just talking about you yesterday. This is so bizarre.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, God.

[Sean Hayes]

Sean. Sean, I'm gonna. John, first of all, welcome to Smartless. What an honor to have you on the show today.

[John Lithgow]

That honor is completely mine, you guys. It's a fantastic podcast.

[Sean Hayes]

Truly, truly, truly. And I was excited, and we're all excited, but I know Sean's been excited because, John, you were quite literally raised in the theater.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Is that true?

[John Lithgow]

Well, yes, it's true. I was a theater rat from. Actually, the first acting I ever did, I was about two years old, one of Nora's children in a Doll's House with my father playing Torvald.

[Will Arnett]

Wow.

[John Lithgow]

And I remember absolutely nothing about it, but I'm told I was very good. That was the beginning of things. But I was.

[Sean Hayes]

You know, you set the bar High at 2.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah, but there were no supporting actor nods back at that age. But did you see.

[Will Arnett]

Did you get a chance to see Doll's House Part two?

[John Lithgow]

Yes, of course. With Lori.

[Will Arnett]

How great was that show?

[John Lithgow]

Fantastic. I love that show and I love Laurie Metzgaff.

[Jason Bateman]

So then, was there any other thing that ever got into your head that you might be doing with your life, or was it just like that? Was it.

[John Lithgow]

From a very young age, I thought I should be an artist. I wanted to be an artist. I sort of had a facility and parents that encouraged that and bought me wonderful art supplies, and I had great public school art teachers, and I was very serious about it.

[Jason Bateman]

Did it start with drawing?

[John Lithgow]

Drawing and painting and printmaking. But meantime, just as a. Like, my dad produced summer Shakespeare festivals, and that was my summers was hanging around, watching rehearsals, being in the plays as, like, a fairy in Midsummer Night's Dream or A Foot Soldier. In fact, by the time I was a teenager, I was playing bits and pieces in Shakespeare in repertory, like seven plays a summer. A Crazy Childhood in Ohio.

[Jason Bateman]

Now, you might not be the right person to answer this, but I've always had a fear of even trying Shakespeare because I think that it would be almost impossible for me to learn the lines because it's basically a different language. But since you started so young, was that a hurdle for you, or do you think I'd. How difficult a thing is that?

[John Lithgow]

Not at all. I mean, you're right. I had the great good luck to just hear that language all the time. But it is learning another language, or at least feeling that it is a natural way of communicating.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Right. You certainly can't paraphrase.

[John Lithgow]

No, you have to be precise.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

You're not throwing a lot of, like. I mean, and, you know, like.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. Although, you know, there's wonderful Shakespeare that completely breaks all the rules. There was a wonderful production of Much Ado About Nothing in New York in my 1970s theater days with Sam Waterston and Kathleen Widows. And it was set in Teddy Roosevelt's America, kind of ragtime music.

[Jason Bateman]

And it contemporized the dialogue a bit.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. Coming back from World War I, and it was as spirited. It captured the spirit of Shakespeare better than most productions.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, I've seen a few of those. Yeah. Sometimes you see those. I remember seeing a. What was it at Guildhall I saw in London? It was like. And everybody's on motorcycles and stuff. And then, of course, Ralph Fiennes, when he did Hamlet on Broadway, was incred. I really loved that back in the 90s I thought that was pretty remarkable. But so, John, so you grow up. So your dad was a produced theater and your mom was an actress, Is that right? She was retired actress.

[John Lithgow]

She was, but I never really knew her as an actor. She retired early and just sort of kept track of the family. I mean, we literally lived in about eight different places. It was. We were like a vaudeville troupe, except.

[Sean Hayes]

It was Shakespeare, which is just in your blood. And then you go. And then you graduated from high school in New Jersey, I think, from. In Princeton, New Jersey. Right?

[John Lithgow]

Your dad was working Princeton High.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, Princeton High. And then you went to. And then you went to Harvard. Yeah, I know. And you continued your. And you were there and you were studying what at Harvard?

[John Lithgow]

English, history and literature. Very scholarly major. But I fell in with the theater gang immediately. And that's when it happened. That's when I decided, you know, I was already like a seasoned actor by pure osmosis. I had just been around actors. I and my siblings were like, best friends with all these young theater actors, mainly sort of graduates from Carnegie Tech who'd come down to do my dad's Shakespeare festivals. I had lived in that world, so it just came very naturally. And I was a campus star at Harvard. And if you're a star at anything at Harvard, you'd better go with the flow. Cause that is a competitive place. I wasn't good at anything but acting there.

[Jason Bateman]

What about your siblings? Did they do. Did they go into the same. Same field?

[John Lithgow]

No. Both my sisters were teachers and wonderful teachers, and they. And they directed student theater.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, really?

[John Lithgow]

And they. They were. And my dad, my older brother, was an airline pilot who then retired and worked for the faa.

[Jason Bateman]

No way. Wait, did he fly big commercial planes?

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Will Arnett]

Wow.

[John Lithgow]

Charter flights. I was never in an airplane that he was piloting.

[Jason Bateman]

No.

[John Lithgow]

On purpose. Maybe that was against the rules. I don't know.

[Jason Bateman]

That would unsettle me. I like that whole sense that I'd never really see the pilot. You do love that. Yeah, because I just don't feel like it's something humans should even be able to do. It's so specialized. And fly a plane, it's just like, how do you do that? If they become human to me, then all the. All the playables go along.

[Will Arnett]

But. Wait, but what? But you. But as you board it, you pass. Do you just not look into the cockpit?

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, I just look right. I look right.

[Sean Hayes]

You know?

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Jason. John, you have to. You have to. John, you have to understand something about Jason. He has very interesting ways of compartmentalizing. Things and putting things in certain. It's, it's always right, Sean. It's always fascinating to me. And you're such an. Jason, you're such an easy flyer, too. As these guys know, I get quite nervous. And Jason, just like, you never get phased. You're like, you give in to the right once you're on there.

[Jason Bateman]

I do. I hit fuck it real quick. And I. Well, my mom was a stewardess or flight attendant for pan am for 30 some years. So I like, you know, I would always get nervous when she'd leave, but she always came home and I'm like.

[Will Arnett]

Well, you know, I would always fly. I would always make sure I flew the first flight out in the morning. So I didn't sleep. So when I got on the plane, I was so exhausted, I didn't care what happened.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, oh, oh. I thought you were flying the first one out because you thought that one had the best, best odds of landing.

[Will Arnett]

Well, that's first flight. Yeah.

[John Lithgow]

When I. My favorite airline pilot story, beyond my brother's many, many stories, when I was in World According to Garp playing Roberta Muldoon, I was amazing.

[Will Arnett]

Way ahead of his time.

[John Lithgow]

Wasn't cadging for applause, gentlemen.

[Jason Bateman]

No, you're gonna get it.

[Sean Hayes]

But there's a. Where's the audience here? I love it.

[Will Arnett]

That Garp is amazing.

[John Lithgow]

Well, at a certain point and early in the flight, the flight attendant came back, this woman in a Delta pilot's uniform, and she crouched next to me and said how much she appreciated me as Roberta Muldoon, and said, Roberta and I have a lot in common. And it was one of many amazing transactions with trans people way back. This was 40 years ago.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. No, I love that thing.

[Sean Hayes]

Just while we're on the flight thing. John, do you remember we met on a flight. Oh, and, and you probably don't remember, and I think that I dropped my. Or you dropped your license and I found your license and I handed it to you. Do you remember that?

[John Lithgow]

Yes, of course I remember.

[Sean Hayes]

Years ago.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. In fact, I, I, I always regretted that I hadn't, I hadn't recalled that when we actually worked together, because we did work together. We sort of did and didn't. When we did live in front of.

[Sean Hayes]

A studio audience, when we did. Exactly right.

[Will Arnett]

Which one were you on?

[John Lithgow]

I was on the same evening as Will and Jason, although they were in the Facts of Life and I was in Different Strokes, so we didn't really interact except at parties.

[Will Arnett]

I did all in the Family and it was really fun. Wasn't that fun?

[Jason Bateman]

Fabulous.

[Sean Hayes]

It was so fun.

[Jason Bateman]

Now if I'd found John Lithgow's driver's license, I would have kept that. Yeah, that would have just been a great little thing. Just keep.

[Sean Hayes]

Well, he was across the aisle, so I couldn't really, you know, I would have felt bad.

[John Lithgow]

No, that was the first time we met. And Sean, you and I used to be neighbors on the lot at Radford when you were third race.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, back in the day. There were so many great shows being shot there at that time.

[Will Arnett]

Only one lot. Yeah, it was kind of amazing.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[John Lithgow]

All yelling distance from each other.

[Sean Hayes]

Did you like doing John? You had such a facility, obviously, because of your intense theater background and your upbringing in the theater. Did you like. And Sean, I'll go to you. And also Jason, because all three of you guys have such, you know, storied sitcom careers.

[John Lithgow]

All of us.

[Sean Hayes]

And I did too. But did you like that experience of making a multi camera show?

[John Lithgow]

I absolutely loved it. Just, I consider those. It was like the six happiest years as an actor just interacting with this great writing staff. The Third Rock staff was so terrific and it was so inane. Just spending all your time figuring out the funny and entertaining a studio audience on just like three days rehearsal and.

[Jason Bateman]

You get a fresh script the next week.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. And Third Rock, of course, was just flat out nutball farce.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great.

[John Lithgow]

I never thought I would do that. In fact, something happened and I forgot it ever happened. I was asked to be Frazier on Cheers.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, wow.

[Will Arnett]

Oh my God. I didn't know that.

[John Lithgow]

And I turned it down out of hand. I honestly, I didn't even remember it had happened until Jimmy Burrows reminded me years and years later when he directed 3rd Rock. Just because at that point, you know, I had a few movies under my belt. I had a couple of Oscar nominations. So beneath my dignity. I was such an asshole. A pretentious asshole. But, you know, I worked on Saturday Night Live. I hosted Saturday Night Live three times in the 80s and two of those times Bond and Terry Turner were on the writing staff. They pitched it to me and when they pitched it to me, suddenly it seemed like so much fun. And I was the only person they could even imagine playing Dick Solomon because it had to be an alien who was completely clueless but could try anything.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, yeah, that's so great. And what a catch. Joseph Gordon Levitt. And it was a wonderful Johnston. Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Jane Curtin.

[Will Arnett]

Jane Curtin, of course.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. And the long process of casting, it was so exc.

[Jason Bateman]

Was it. Did it take a long time?

[John Lithgow]

A long time. Because in each case it had. We had to figure out just who. What is this comic idea?

[Sean Hayes]

Right.

[John Lithgow]

You know, a general who has to inhabit the body of a woman became Kristen Johnston.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, if you went to pitch it, John. Well, if you went to pitch that idea, it's. It's pretty high concept. You're like, what's the show? Okay, so here it is. And the network would be like, wait a second, what?

[John Lithgow]

Well, they had already. It was already a go. They came to me to pitch it. And that's exactly what Terry Turner said. He said, well, it's about this family of aliens. And of course, I had been surprised.

[Will Arnett]

Go on.

[John Lithgow]

I'd been tricked into the meeting. I thought I was just having a meeting with my friends Bonnie and Terry, but Carsey and Werner, they were all there. And I thought, my God, how do I say no to this fast enough? But in five minutes, he had brought me around. It just seemed suddenly like, what in the world have I been waiting for?

[Jason Bateman]

Did you have any idea that it might go as long as it did, or did you think it was kind of gonna be a pilot and out or maybe half a season?

[John Lithgow]

Well, it was a freaky situation because when we finally produced the show, we had done the pilot and it was picked up all right by NBC, but it was picked up as a mid season replacement. So we had done it, 13 of them, before anybody had seen it. And, you know, well into this we had realized, oh, my God, we really have something here. We felt like we had the hope diamond in our pocket. I mean, you know how cocky you can get when you have been working hard enough on something, you persuade yourself it's great.

[Jason Bateman]

You're in your bubble.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[John Lithgow]

But we were able to sort of frontline all the great episodes. We had had those 13 episodes to figure out the funny, to figure out what this show was. You know, in so many cases, you go back and see the original pilot episode of a great show like Seinfeld and you realize they hadn't found it yet. Yes, we had 13 chances to find it. And it was released mid season in January and bam, just hit like that.

[Sean Hayes]

You know, there's a sort of a freedom in that, in the sense that, yes, you can feel that you have something, but there is an absence of ego because there's. It hasn't been received yet. Right. So there's a purity to that. And I remember on a smaller scale, but when Jason, when we did arrest development, we shot so many before it aired. And I remember in that time in that bubble from sort of that year from July till November, we were just making this thing and there was nobody watching us. And there was a freedom in that of nobody watching. Right.

[Jason Bateman]

You don't have to protect anything.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah. You don't have to pretend you don't.

[Will Arnett]

Have anything to lose.

[Sean Hayes]

Well, it's a, it's a high wire act. You can take chances and you can. And you're not worried because there's, there's nobody watching. Do you know what I mean?

[John Lithgow]

It just gives you a chance to find it. And you had the added challenge. We at least had a studio audience. And when they laughed, we knew we were funny.

[Sean Hayes]

Right.

[John Lithgow]

You know, so, you know, in a sense, you were flying blind until people actually saw it.

[Jason Bateman]

And we will be right back.

[Will Arnett]

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[Sean Hayes]

So here's an interesting. So you leave Harvard and then you go on a, I think like a Fulbright scholarship or something to lambda. Is that right?

[John Lithgow]

That's right, yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

I mean, so you go and I've always marveled at, you know, we have plenty of really amazing talent that comes out of the UK that comes and works over here. And they've all been really well trained and they're very respected. And it's a difficult thing to go the other direction. I think that there's a little bit. Right. I think it's a harder. It just is. Or at least the perception is that it is. And I thought that it was, you know, it's a real testament to your ability as an actor and as an, I hate to break it to you, you're not going to be an artist. You want, you are an artist and you went over there and really just sort of jumped right into that and being a performer over there overseas. And you did a lot of theater over there as well. You did Shakespeare in England as an American?

[Will Arnett]

Yeah. That's gotta be wild.

[John Lithgow]

Well, as I say, I did have this head start with my curious upbringing. And it's true that a lot more people flow in our direction than the other way around, but I think it's because Shakespeare really is the spine of the English school of acting. And I had done a lot of Shakespeare, and that's not true of many American actors.

[Sean Hayes]

Right.

[John Lithgow]

But in the other direction, there's plenty of American culture. I mean, you get Australian actors and English actors who. You can't believe how authentic their language is. They don't even need a dialect coach by now. They've been watching. They've been watching Friends all these years.

[Sean Hayes]

Their whole lives, but at the same time. But then you go and you do. And I wanted to get to this, which was, you've so many amazing performances that I've just really enjoyed and adored like everybody else over the years. But you go and you take an iconic character in the Crown, you play Winston Churchill, which I think, for my money, and this is no disrespect to anybody else who's ever played Winston Churchill. To me, it's the defining Winston Churchill. And I was so riveted by it. Right. It's incredible.

[Will Arnett]

Amazing.

[Sean Hayes]

Jason, I know you haven't watched the Crown. You have to see it just for John.

[Will Arnett]

It's mind blowing. Yeah, it's an incredible performance.

[Sean Hayes]

You can't get more iconic for an English character than Winston Churchill.

[John Lithgow]

Well, it was kind of astonishing that they even asked me to do it, but, I mean, so much of it was the way they situated Churchill in that story. It wasn't a historical drama. It was like almost a family drama. It was an extremely intimate and personal look at Churchill with all of his eccentricities and infirmities and insecurities. And that's very much what I took off from.

[Sean Hayes]

Must have been daunting, though.

[John Lithgow]

It was very scary, except that all the English actors welcomed me in. They had more confidence in me than I had in myself. And I just. Just went to work at it. I found, you know, the most interesting thing I did in all my research, what I found was reading all about him as a child and as a boy and as a young man, tremendously insecure, growing up a failure with very neglectful parents and just feeling like a screw up. Like there had been so many expectations of him that he would so that so many things in his life were Pure over compensation. So you approach your old age, and to me, all the characteristics you had in childhood kick in that I sort of worked from that, and I think that's what people thought was kind of new about it.

[Will Arnett]

That is interesting.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah, he did. And he had such a childhood, and his. And his. His adult life was very. Was varied in the things that he did. Right. Sort of head of the Admiralty and all that kind of stuff. Right.

[John Lithgow]

But so many huge successes and colossal failures and kind of constantly recovering one from another like a parabola, you know. I asked Stephen Daldry, the director, why he had cast me. I'd said yes, and we sat down for breakfast, and his first response was, well, Churchill's mother was an American, and that's true. She was this Baltimore aristocrat.

[Sean Hayes]

That's right.

[John Lithgow]

There was as much difference between an American, Winston Churchill, and Englishmen who are not Winston Churchill. He was quite an anomaly, and I think that came in handy.

[Will Arnett]

That's so interesting. What about. Was it as challenging as playing the reverend in Footloose?

[John Lithgow]

That was a challenge in its own way. Just because.

[Will Arnett]

Are you bummed you didn't cut loose? Jay hated that one.

[John Lithgow]

I felt like, you know, it was actually Footloose. I go back, back and look at Footloose now, and I think that was a really good movie.

[Will Arnett]

It was a great movie. I love that movie.

[John Lithgow]

There's so much meat on the bone. Herbert Ross, the director, and Dean Pitchford, who wrote it, they really took this story seriously. And I felt I had to take this character, Reverend Shaw, more seriously. And I, who have virtually no religion in me, had to. I actually sought out a preacher in the Yellow Pages. I looked up an assembly of God ministry and. And called up and sought spiritual advice.

[Will Arnett]

Wow.

[Sean Hayes]

Wow.

[John Lithgow]

And I.

[Sean Hayes]

Hey, would you share that? Will you share that contact with Jason? That'd be great. He could use.

[John Lithgow]

But I. I felt. I felt I had to find someone who truly believed what he was doing. If I'm going to imitate it.

[Will Arnett]

Well, and then. And then. I'm sure you apply that to conclave. And you were amazing in conclave.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Just incredible. What a beautiful movie.

[John Lithgow]

That was a. That was a fabulous job. That was two months in Rome with Stanley Tucci and Isabella Rosselli.

[Will Arnett]

Amazing. I love that movie.

[Jason Bateman]

How do you. I would imagine that you are flooded with scripts or opportunities or conversations about parts in so many different things and genres because you have done so many different things, different genres. No one could say that you are a television actor, film actor, a stage actor, comedy, drama, drama, big Parts, small parts. You've just done everything. And it's such a high level for so long. How are you able? What's the main thing that drives you towards your decisions?

[John Lithgow]

Well, look, Jason, we're all actors, you know perfectly well. We don't do nearly as much choosing as everybody thinks we do. You just wait. You wait for good things and good people and good writers, and it's very rare. I honestly feel like almost all the roles that you just rattled off, almost embarrassing. It's so complimentary. But none of them are things that I sought out or even knew about. I was somebody else's brainstorm. And it's like, I remember Jonathan Demme did a little television film years ago called who Am I this Time, about some hapless community theater actor whom everybody kept coming to to play. The roles have always been a surprise to me.

[Jason Bateman]

Right. And it's a testament to your talent that you're able to craft your take on the character in such a way where you're able to play it really well. You know, it's like. It becomes. You're like, okay, so this is the opportunity I'm being given this month or this year, and so I better figure out a way to play it well. Cause it's the only part that's coming down the P. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of an overly humble way.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. And. And. And I'm game. I guess I'm best known for being ready, willing, and able. Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

I mean, that's. And that's no small thing, by the way.

[John Lithgow]

And it's very cockeyed. I. I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Geoffrey Rush last year called the Rule of Jenny Penn, which I urge you to look up. It's about to be released, and, you know, it's a very narrow release because it's a very bold and crazy film. A psycholog thriller in which I play, by far, the most outrageous character I've played since Dr. Lizardo. And he is the monster in a horror movie. He really is. He's a crazy guy who's out to torment Geoffrey Rush in a senior care facility in New Zealand. I mean, this is a crazy film, and it is great. I read that script, you know, this wonderful young director in New Zealand named James Ashcroft. He's said, I've got to have you play this part. And I was terrified of doing this. My God. But I reminded myself, it's the things that you're afraid of that.

[Sean Hayes]

But what is that thing that you do? What is that Moment of fear when you were able to turn when you read it, and he says, it has to be you. And you look at it and you say, oh, I don't know. I don't know what this is. I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I'm. Maybe I'll fail. What is the moment? What is the thing that. The voice that says, take the jump off the cliff.

[John Lithgow]

I think it usually comes from a conversation or a zoom call with the filmmaker. If there's a matter of trust, you do it. And I've been wrong before. God knows we've all been wrong before. But this, like, I read Jenny Penn and I thought, this is horrific. Who is in the world is going to want to see this? And I spoke to this guy, James Ashcroft, for an hour and a half and he just was so persuasive. I just saw so far beyond my first reaction to the script. It's just a matter of being wide open to trusting somebody and being ready to take a chance. Because God knows there are plenty of times when it doesn't work out. But you gotta be bold.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Does the criteria change for you now at this stage? Like, I notice as I'm getting older, my decision to, in terms of working this again goes to kind of to everybody, your mindset changes. The things that are important to you change. Is that true or no? Is there a sort of a guiding light for you? Is it, I want to do something that challenges me or I want to do something that's fun, or I want to do something that fits my schedule, or does that shift? I mean, you know what I mean? What is the criteria?

[John Lithgow]

I just think there's so many factors in every case, and it always surprises you one way or another. It's basically, is this going to be good? Is this going to be fun? Are people gonna wanna see this? And am I working? Is it good writing with good people? I always say the only hard acting is bad writing.

[Jason Bateman]

You know, you guys, or shitty people. You know, having to like, you know, share 12 hours a day with a bunch of jerks is not fun.

[John Lithgow]

And you just try to steer clear of that. Sometimes you can't avoid it. And you. Sometimes you take things for the wrong reasons and you pay for it.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah. How do you factor in. Where does, where does. Where does family, friends, all that stuff, how does that all factor in? Tell. Tell us a little bit about, about your. I don't know anything about your personal life. Tell me all. Tell me all the things you don't.

[John Lithgow]

Want to say so sweet of you to ask, Jason. That's a huge factor. I've been married 43 years to my wife Mary, who's a UCLA professor of, of history, economic and business history. We are an unlikely couple. You know, God never meant professors and actors to get married because our lives are so different. She is constantly having to adapt to these crazy right angle turns I keep taking. I mean, just think, being asked to play Dumbledore is contemplating literally years in England.

[Will Arnett]

I know.

[John Lithgow]

And that just disrupts everything. We have two kids, I have a third by my first marriage and I have three grandkids with another on the way. And you know, going to England, how are we gonna go back and forth? Their lives are very installed here. Family is hugely important to me and it's quite. We are quite exclusive. You know, we're a kind of quiet little family and we get wrenched all over the place. So for a long time, when I was asked to do a play in New York, my first reaction was where are we going to live? Because I was so used to house sits and sublets and apartment hotels, we finally just splurged and bought a beautiful New York apartment. So we find. So it just, just so I won't have that reaction. I can think of living a wonderful life in New York when I'm doing a New York play. And I never want to stop doing that. By the way, Sean, I have to ask you, are you going to play Oscar Levant again? Because I missed it and at the.

[Will Arnett]

Barbican and this summer in London.

[John Lithgow]

I will see you. I will see you.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, good.

[John Lithgow]

I will be there.

[Will Arnett]

That'd be great.

[John Lithgow]

I will be there in the first weeks of Dumbledore.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, that's great.

[John Lithgow]

And I'm doing a play in the West End that you won't be able to see. It's called. Well, I did it at the Royal Court in the fall and it's moving to the West End.

[Will Arnett]

What's it called?

[John Lithgow]

It's called Giant, a play about Roald Dahl in which Plat. Wow, great smash hit at the little Royal Court Theater. But I will finally be able to see.

[Will Arnett]

That'd be great.

[Jason Bateman]

You will not be disappointed. It's so, it's.

[John Lithgow]

I saw little clips of it and heard so many friends rave about it and I was so upset I had missed it. You know, know, it's on my list of those things that I kick myself.

[Will Arnett]

Well, that's very nice of you. I appreciate that. Yeah, come see, we'll have dinner or whatever.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, he Won. He won a Tony for it. We mentioned it earlier. He won a Tony. And. And which gets. Sean, don't be. Watching him act embarrassed is so embarrassing.

[Jason Bateman]

Because you think he's good, and then he tries to play embarrassment.

[Sean Hayes]

It's so terrible. But, John, you. You, I. I mentioned you won. You won a Tony. Your first outing on Broadway, which was for what?

[Will Arnett]

What was it for?

[John Lithgow]

It was for the Changing Room. An English.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, the Changing Room. Sorry, sorry, you said it.

[John Lithgow]

By David's Story, which, incidentally, was first produced at the Royal Court Theatre, where we did.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, wow.

[John Lithgow]

Where we did this play, Giant. So this was full of comedy.

[Will Arnett]

That's wild. That's cool.

[Sean Hayes]

Full circle. But you. I mean, imagine coming out and your first production on Broadway, you win a Tony, you're sort of. You're shot out of a cannon, as it were, and you must think, like, okay, it's like. It would be like to try to. For Tracy, it'd be like winning the super bowl, your first year in the NFL and just thinking, I'm gonna win a Super bowl every year.

[Will Arnett]

Right, right.

[Sean Hayes]

Was there a little bit of that?

[John Lithgow]

Well, it was astonishing. I mean, the Changing Room, it was a play that we did. It was the American premiere of this extraordinary play about a English north of England rugby team. It takes place in their changing room. This sort of super real.

[Will Arnett]

I'll read for that.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah, it's. It's a great. A great thing that we did at the Long Wharf Theater in. In New Haven, and it got a lot of national press and moved to Broadway. Until then, I had done rep for both for my dad, and I had actually started directing just because nobody would hire me as an actor. I was actually doing just fine as a director. I. I'd been hired to be the artistic director of Baltimore Center Stage, and I had accepted, like, what. What else? I. To work.

[Sean Hayes]

Wow.

[John Lithgow]

And I pulled. I pulled out after two weeks when I was finally offered to be a member of the resident company at Long Wharf. The second show was Changing Room, and it was brought to Broadway. And two weeks later, I won a Tony. I didn't sleep for about two months. I was so excited.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, that's really cool. That's amazing.

[John Lithgow]

It really did. It's very hard to get into that inner circle, I mean, in theater in particular in New York, because nobody thinks of you as a successful actor until you're a successful actor.

[Will Arnett]

Right.

[Jason Bateman]

Well, speaking about that, having done it so long and at such a high level, do you find yourself still teaching yourself new tricks? Are you work with that incredible cast, like you just did in conclave, I imagine it's impossible for you not to absorb something a little. Are you still putting little pieces on your talent? Does it still change?

[John Lithgow]

I feel like there's nothing I haven't done yet. I mean, Third Rock itself was, like, flying in all directions for six years. It hasn't stopped me from the terrible insecurity of what do people think of me? In the first couple of weeks of rehearsal. That helped us concentrate, though, to be honest, even doing live in front of a studio audience, I was nervous as hell that night. Yeah. I don't know whether you guys had that experience.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah. But for Tracy, those were they. I know we said it already, but Jimmy Kimmel and Norman Lear put together on ABC these recreations of old sitcoms, and we did them live.

[John Lithgow]

It's the one thing all four of us have in common.

[Sean Hayes]

That's true.

[John Lithgow]

I always brag to people that I've worked with, Jason and Will.

[Jason Bateman]

But I would imagine, I imagine, though, that, you know, you work across someone like, you know, Ralph Fiennes and, like, how can you. How do you. How do you avoid not being distracted by watching somebody with that kind of talent and try to see what they're doing and maybe try it on a little bit for you? Like, do you find yourself at all being influenced by folks that you're working with?

[John Lithgow]

I mean, in the case of Rafe, it was just extraordinary, the interaction. Yeah, I. I worked. Listen, over the last two years, I've done roles with Ralph Fiennes, Olivia Colman and Geoffrey Rush. And. And in big parts where the big intense scenes, you get to see what they do in each case, they give you so much. It's all. No performance is created by one person. There's a minimum of two, because it's all about the interaction and playing off each other. And I just feel. I mean, thank goodness, when I act with someone, they're pretty familiar with me, and I tend to be familiar with them. And if I'm not, I make myself friends with them. I just go right ahead and say, come on, you guys, let's connect. Let's get to know each other.

[Will Arnett]

You have to do that.

[Jason Bateman]

We'll be right back.

[Will Arnett]

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[Sean Hayes]

What's the role that people stop you for the most and when when you're walking down the street, when you're on an airplane and you drop your license, when you what is the thing that people say?

[John Lithgow]

I would say probably third Rock, Dexter and Winston Churchill, but it tends to be the thing that is most Current. I mean, an awful lot of things.

[Will Arnett]

Well, get ready because the Dumbledore and the Harry Potter series, it's gonna be massive.

[Sean Hayes]

I know.

[John Lithgow]

You know, this is already. Can you believe this has already started? And the deal was only set like 48 hours ago. And in airports two weeks ago, somehow or other people had gotten wind of this and they were stopping me in airport.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Do you have you. Where are you in your process of educating yourself on the history of the whole canon?

[John Lithgow]

Well, I seem to be behind everybody. I'm just. I'm halfway through the second of these seven novels. I think the overall concept of this entire reboot of Harry Potter is an entire season is devoted to. To a single novel.

[Will Arnett]

Oh, that's really cool.

[Sean Hayes]

Have you guys read those? I read the first one when it came out. Cause it was. I mean, I was a little. It was, you know, I wasn't a kid anymore when it came out. And they were obviously, they were huge with children at that time and et cetera. And then so I was like, well, I gotta read it. Cause I wanna see what everybody's talking about. So I read the first one and then I didn't go any further. And then once I had kids of my own, I ended up reading all of them out loud to my boy. That's amazing. And I've never seen. I've never seen the film. Oh, I've only read all the books.

[John Lithgow]

You're my audience, Will. You're my audience.

[Sean Hayes]

Yes.

[Jason Bateman]

They're so well made.

[Will Arnett]

They are. Really quick story. So do you know Darlene Hunt? She's a good friend of mine. She's a writer. Brilliant. She created the big C show.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Will Arnett]

Anyway, she's a great writer and she. Her girls were reading the books when they were really little. And she goes, well, we watch the movie after we read a book. And she goes, we're on book four or something like that. I go, why don't you come over and we'll watch the book? We'll watch the thing for you with your family. So she's like, great, I'll pick up a pizza, we'll come over and blah, blah, blah. So I go, you know what? We're gonna just go balls out. We're gonna make Butterbeer for you girls. We're gonna play the music when they walk in. Scotty dressed up as Harry Potter for Halloween ones. He's gonna put that stupid costume on for your girls. Like it'll be. We'll make them feel like they're coming in Write the thing. And so. So she pulls up with a pizza dressed as Maggie Smith in the big pointy hat, you know, dressed in McGonagall with a huge cape, and she's all in black and she has a pizza in her hand. And she walks in. She's been to my house a million times. She walks in and she sees this dog. She's like, that's weird. And she walks in further. I don't remember that dog. She walks in further and this guy's sitting at the kitchen table and goes, can I help you? And she goes goes, isn't Sean and Scotty live here? And he goes, no, they're next door. So she walked into the wrong house dressed as a witch with a pizza. And the guy must have been like, what the is going on?

[John Lithgow]

And she may have thought that the dog was a wizard.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, you know, it was the most. It was the funniest, most embarrassing story.

[Sean Hayes]

This is another. Another segment of Sean's called Loser Friday nights. Hey, listen.

[Will Arnett]

Wait, John. So speaking of this job, this gig that you're gonna have for many years, and we talked a little bit about it before. How are you going to do back and forth and how are your living situation? I mean, do you have to be gone the whole year? You gone like three months at a time or.

[John Lithgow]

I honestly don't know the answer to that, Sean. I mean, I was over in England for eight months for the Crown and barely came back. I think I may have come back once or twice. I imagine that I can come back much more. You know, Dumbledore is. He's kind of the nuclear weapon. He only goes on very, very occasionally. And I don't think it's gonna be that hard a job. And we'll just go back and forth.

[Sean Hayes]

Where do you like to live? Where do you like to live when you're in London? What's your favorite?

[John Lithgow]

Well, I've lived in. We lived up in. Near Primrose Hill on the Crown. We lived near the Royal Court in Chelsea this past fall when I did the play. And I've had. Oh, God, they found a wonderful house for us when I did the Crown. And we just lived like Londoners, right down the street from Derek Jacoby. I love Derek, you know, I love that. So. So, I mean, it's. It's a wonderful thing to contemplate. I mean, the logistics are. Are a little bit scary. I really did have to think hard about whether to take it on. But I also thought, well, I'm about to turn 80, you know, next year.

[Sean Hayes]

No way I'll turn 80.

[Will Arnett]

Is that true?

[Jason Bateman]

That's the new 50.

[Sean Hayes]

You look kidding. I'm not kidding. You look phenomenal.

[John Lithgow]

People ask me for my secret sauce, but as I feel, I'm beginning to feel like 80. And that means that if, if this indeed is a seven or eight year long job, it's a wonderful way to grow old as an actor. I mean, the, the alternative is to just be hauled out once a year to play an Alzheimer patient or play.

[Jason Bateman]

A wise old wizard.

[John Lithgow]

An awful lot of death scenes with weeping middle aged children.

[Sean Hayes]

You know, John, let me just say this. If you played an Alzheimer patient, I'm sure your performance would be unforgettable.

[Will Arnett]

By the way, you did in Planet the Apes.

[John Lithgow]

I was great.

[Will Arnett]

You were an Alzheimer's person, Shawn.

[John Lithgow]

I love you, Hugh. I didn't, I didn't have to bring that up myself. Yes, of course, of course. Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

Now, does your, Is your wife have to be at UCLA every day, teaching?

[John Lithgow]

Oh, no, no. She, she is retired from teaching. She's still. She still researches and writes and goes to conferences. She travels more than I do. She travels all over the world. And I, I'm a trailing spouse on many occasions.

[Jason Bateman]

Is home base still Los Angeles?

[John Lithgow]

So it's more LA than New York. But we split our time between the two and now we're triangulating, really, with London.

[Jason Bateman]

What a dream. That is my absolute dream. That train.

[John Lithgow]

And Mary's from Montana. We have a little cabin on a lake in northwestern Montana and we. That's kind of our runaway place, which is just absolutely beautiful. So it's great.

[Will Arnett]

It's great. Now, if you leave this podcast today without me asking a funny. If you have a funny theater story, these guys will kill me. Out of all of, out of all of our guests. Because you have such a theater history. And I love when things go wrong.

[Jason Bateman]

Or people forgetting wine or somebody having.

[Will Arnett]

A heart attack or something in the crowd.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, Shawn loves a heart attack.

[Will Arnett]

I did think I may have said this one to you guys before, but I don't remember, so stop me if I have, but in high school, they were giving these. They created these thespian awards at the end of the year and they had this award called the Gold Crutch, and it goes to whoever, the clumsiest, whoever made the biggest mistakes or whatever. And that's a whole other story why I got it. But so I go up to accept the Golden Crutch Award in front of everybody, and I thought, you know what might be funny is if I trip when I get the award, sure. So I had it in my hand and I tripped and I knocked the tooth out of Missy Vogelsinger's mouth and drew it.

[John Lithgow]

My God.

[Will Arnett]

Swear to God, Missy Vogels sing it to this day. And she's standing there shaking and bleeding, and I'm going, oh, God. And the whole audience, and I go, should I speech or do I take care of her? And like a true actor, I just gave the speech.

[Sean Hayes]

Speech, of course, the speech, of course.

[John Lithgow]

Tried to reassure everybody that this was.

[Will Arnett]

A joke, this was fine. And she was. The blood was coming down, and I was like, oh, my God. And. And it was one of the most embarrassing, by the way. That's why I got the golden crutch. Well, any.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah, I guess the most curious mishap. I mentioned the changing room on Broadway, which took place in the rugby team's changing room. 22 actors, of whom.

[Sean Hayes]

Cool it, Sean.

[John Lithgow]

15. 15 were players. And we. At a certain point, we stripped completely naked, got our uniforms on, off into the. We played the match, then came back at the end, halfway through, my character, the one. There was a scene that won me that Tony Award. I was brought off the pitch halfway through the match, covered in mud and very, very badly injured. Smashed nose, blood running down my face. I was taken off stage to an offstage bathtub, scrubbed all the mud off, and was brought back on stage by the equipment manager. I was stark naked and wet and glistening. He toweled me down and dressed me up like I was a baby. A long scene in silence. All you heard was the sound of the cross roaring off stage. And at a certain point, he hoisted me to my feet and hauled my underpants up these sort of pathetic briefs. You know, we were all these working class clods, really, but it was a very moving scene. You know, this character was completely out of it. I was, like, inert, could barely see. And one night, he hoisted me. Me up, tugged up my briefs, and my dick was sort of hanging out, just out the bottom, just like. And in front of, you know, 800 people, all stricken in silence. And I thought, how in the world am I going to do this? I'm not. I'm supposed to be completely inert. And I just sort of thinking nobody would notice, I sort of reached down and sort of flicked it inside my. And I would say that was by far the most embarrassing.

[Jason Bateman]

So the good ones, after the voting period had already lapsed.

[John Lithgow]

I. I would remind you, I was given a Tony Award for that.

[Sean Hayes]

No wonder what we have to do. John. John, we've Taken up too much of your time. But I want to ask you one last question because as Jason mentioned, it imagined over the years, and I know a lot of it is what comes our way, but a lot of stuff I imagine over the year has come your way. And you mentioned Frasier on Shears. Is there a role in. In. In. In that you have ever regretted other than Frasier Crane, perhaps? Is there a role that you regretted and. And thought afterwards? Oh, I should have said yes.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, yes, there's is. There are lots I ordinarily don't tell people out of regard for the ones who ended up playing it.

[Jason Bateman]

You don't need to.

[John Lithgow]

But I would say I must have the record for the most Tony awards won by actors in roles that I turned down. There are literally, I think I'm in double figures by now, and a couple of those do indeed completely torment me. But I have to think that I played a few roles and had to great acclaim and others have turned it down.

[Sean Hayes]

So, John, you know what? Maybe you can look at it like this. You allowed and you gifted passing on the genius writing and whatever that play was to allow somebody else to have it. And what an incredible positive thing to be a part of.

[John Lithgow]

Well, you are so a much better person than I am.

[Sean Hayes]

I doubt it.

[Jason Bateman]

You caught him on a good day.

[John Lithgow]

John, my heart out, you know. No, but you're absolutely right that that is a beautiful way to look at it. And as. And as I say, I never tell people that I, of course, you know, actually I. I got a Tony award, sorry, an Oscar nomination for Terms of Endearment, replacing another actor.

[Jason Bateman]

Huh.

[Will Arnett]

They.

[John Lithgow]

They had shot a couple of scenes with Deborah Winger in Terms of Endearment, and they had to let him go because it just wasn't right. He just didn't feel okay about Deborah Winger having an adulterous affair. So they came after me thinking I'm the perfect adulterer, apparently. And I have never revealed this actor's name just out of respect him. Even though there were perfectly good reasons that I just explained why he wasn't right for the part.

[Sean Hayes]

At that point in your life, you were the seediest per. They were like, we need somebody seedier.

[John Lithgow]

Let's get exactly. When we did 3rd Rock, we had something that I called the Lithgow Rules. If anybody was ever replaced or dropped from the script, if the part was written out or whatever, that actor would have to get two phone calls, one from me and one from our producers, just to say I love that it wasn't you. Here Are the reasons why? Because, you know, it just has happened so many times in my experience that people are just cut out of faith films or dropped from or.

[Will Arnett]

And they don't hear from anybody.

[John Lithgow]

They don't hear anything except from a casting director calling an agent, calling an actor and saying it didn't work out.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[John Lithgow]

And that's so crushing.

[Jason Bateman]

It is.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, you know, it's just because there's always 10 reason. 10 perfectly good reasons for some. For things like that that have nothing.

[Jason Bateman]

To do with the talent. Right.

[John Lithgow]

Yeah. And we actors, we can take it. We know there's reasons for it.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[John Lithgow]

So there's no.

[Jason Bateman]

But we're soft. We're soft.

[Sean Hayes]

It is that I've been. Well, I've been. You guys probably have too. I mean, I've been fired from jobs or my character was written out, and I've had. And then there have been people who were really kind. I've mentioned before, casting director. She not really doing it anymore. Deb Borilski. And I got fired from a pilot that went to Ceres and I heard nothing. And the show got picked up. My character was written off. And I was. You know, I wasn't young. I was 32 at the time and just thought, oh, fuck it. And I was in, feeling really shitty. And in New York, and Deborilski wrote me a card. I got it in the mail in my mailbox here in New York York. I got a card saying it was, you know, they made a mistake, it wasn't you. And blah, blah, blah. And it was one of the kinder things.

[Jason Bateman]

And a few months later, she cast you in Arrested Development.

[Sean Hayes]

Made actually a few months and a few months later, she begged me. I was doing a play in New York, and she said, you have to come. I said, no, I'm not interested. I'm so Jade. And she goes, you have to read for this thing. Arrest the film.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, my God. But a great story.

[Sean Hayes]

And it changed my life anyway.

[John Lithgow]

And it happens to everyone. I would say this to young actors over and over. It happens to all of us. And it had never happened to me, but I was finally. Oh, my God. I. I went to the premiere of a film in which I had seven lovely scenes. And I went to the premiere. I was just in New York and I saw, oh, there's a premiere of this film that I'm in. I'll call him and go to the premiere. Which I sat down and watched my first scene, and it was cut in half. And I thought, that's too bad. No, we'll wait for the next one. The next one was cut from the film. The next one was cut. The next one was cut. All that was left of my character was about the 30 seconds of my first scene in which I had stated the premise of this romantic comedy, but.

[Jason Bateman]

It was enough to trigger resistance.

[John Lithgow]

And I sat. Sat there with my. With my two kids and just experienced what I'd always told actors. It happens to all of us.

[Jason Bateman]

It's true.

[Sean Hayes]

It's such a wild thing, isn't it? It's so wild. John, what an absolute, incredible delight having you here tonight.

[John Lithgow]

It's real. I've always loved this show and I was very honored to be on it.

[Jason Bateman]

So nice of you to join us. You're a real angel. Thank you so much.

[John Lithgow]

Well, I'll. I'm sure I'll see you within the next 48 hours at something, so. Yes, yes.

[Sean Hayes]

You'll see Jason. You'll see Jason for sure. And we should. And we're going to come and see you in London. We're going to come and see Sean.

[John Lithgow]

I'm going to see Oscar. Good night, Oscar. The great news. That's what I take away from today.

[Will Arnett]

Thanks, Kyle. Thanks.

[Jason Bateman]

All right, John, thank you.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, I. And wait, I haven't told you about my history with Ben, and I was gonna go do a deep dive on Bennett. Barbecue.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[John Lithgow]

Look at that.

[Sean Hayes]

There's the portrait by John.

[Jason Bateman]

There's the portrait you did.

[John Lithgow]

That's my painting of Bennett. Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Isn't that pretty good?

[Jason Bateman]

Wow. That's fantastic.

[John Lithgow]

You look more like that. You more like. Like the painting than ever.

[Will Arnett]

It's like.

[John Lithgow]

It's like the portrait of Dorian Gray.

[Jason Bateman]

I was John's muse. How are you guys connected?

[Sean Hayes]

Wait a second. So Bennett Barbico, who works with us on. On the show, who's here now. How do you and Bennett know each other?

[John Lithgow]

Bennett was like one of my. My daughter's very good friends at Seeds ues school when they were about 7, 8, 9 years old. And I. I know Bennett's folks. All these years, we.

[Sean Hayes]

Wait, wait, Bennett, you went to lab school? I sure did.

[Jason Bateman]

Before it was called lab school.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah. And, yeah, and both my kids, my older kids, Both my older kids went to lab school.

[John Lithgow]

John, Amazing circles within circles. But his parents. I put up for a fundraising dinner. I offered to paint a portrait of your child, and they bid and they won. And so I painted Bennett's portrait.

[Jason Bateman]

Oh, wow.

[Will Arnett]

I mean, that's crazy.

[John Lithgow]

It took me about seven years to paint. Was a source of great guilt. But I finally Showed up.

[Will Arnett]

That's amazing.

[Jason Bateman]

How cool is that? Bennett, when people come over, you go, look at, at that, John. L did that. It says JL at the bottom.

[Sean Hayes]

Bennett, your mom and dad love you.

[John Lithgow]

You see, I told you I always wanted to be an artist. And it turns out it's not too late.

[Jason Bateman]

Pretty good one.

[Sean Hayes]

It's never too late. That's amazing. Thank you for that, John. That's amazing.

[John Lithgow]

Oh, well, thank you, Bennett. I'm glad we squeezed that in.

[Sean Hayes]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Jason Bateman]

So good to see you, John.

[John Lithgow]

Okay, you too. Bye bye now.

[Will Arnett]

Bye, guys.

[Jason Bateman]

Bye.

[Sean Hayes]

Bye. Bye. Bye. John. John.

[Jason Bateman]

Now, we have had some. We have had, you know, this son of a. Jason.

[Sean Hayes]

Jason, hold up, man. Jason. What.

[Jason Bateman]

What a delight. My God.

[Sean Hayes]

I know.

[Will Arnett]

He. I feel like. Like I've known him. I feel he's a. He's a good, good, good guy. Wow. I can't believe he's almost 80 and he's.

[Sean Hayes]

He looks younger than Jason. It's crazy.

[Jason Bateman]

I got to see him play that killer because I can' him ever being nasty.

[Will Arnett]

I know.

[Jason Bateman]

I want to see angry ever. You can you see through it? You think it's all.

[Sean Hayes]

No, no, no, no. I don't mean it that way. I don't that way. I mean that he is such a versatile. He has such facility as. As an actor to fight. I mean, he can. He has played. I'm trying to think. He's played like some raising cane.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah, yeah, raising cane.

[Sean Hayes]

Some scary, scary characters.

[Will Arnett]

And he's still doing theater. I mean, how about. He's like, yeah, I'm doing Dumbledore. Oh, I'm going to do this play, though, before I'm like, God doesn't slow down. It's very inspiring. But anyway, it's a great, great call getting him. I love him. I love him.

[Sean Hayes]

Well, we were supposed to have him on before, and there was a thing and it was messed up and it was. So we had a technical error, one of our episodes that didn't work out, and I was like, oh, my God, we ever gonna get him back? Because he's traveling all the time and he's working all the time, and I just thought, God, I was so happy that he. That we were actually able to make it happen.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah, he's great.

[Sean Hayes]

Yeah.

[Jason Bateman]

I mean, he's just. I'll bet you could. You could rattle off at least a dozen movies that you go, that's right. He was in that. He's just always got some great part in some great project that you forget about.

[Will Arnett]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

Oh, dude, he's been in. He's been in everything.

[Jason Bateman]

Right, Right.

[Sean Hayes]

You know?

[Will Arnett]

Yeah. I mean, if you take them all, boy. All his films.

[Jason Bateman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayes]

It's the pause. It's the pause. That's what it is, Jason. It's the pause that he can also.

[Jason Bateman]

Hear the engines start.

[Will Arnett]

Like if you take all of them and put them together and it would be such. It's. It's such an incredible body of work. If you take them all and you come. Terrible. That was terrible.

[John Lithgow]

Smart.

[Sean Hayes]

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[Jason Bateman]

Hey, friends. Jason here. We're so excited. The smartless has officially joined the SiriusXM family. We can't wait to announce new surprise kit guests who we know that you'll love. If you want to be the first to hear new episodes ad free and a whole week early, subscribe to SiriusXM podcasts plus on Apple Podcasts or visit siriusxm.com podcasts plus to start your free trial today.

[Will Arnett]

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[Sean Hayes]

Every day, our world gets.

[Will Arnett]

A little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind.

[Jason Bateman]

Us to be more human.

[Will Arnett]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance.

[Sean Hayes]

Hey, I was just in an accident.

[Will Arnett]

Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of. At Ameca, we understand that looking out.

[Sean Hayes]

For each other isn't new or groundbreaking.

[Will Arnett]

It's human.

[Jason Bateman]

Amica Empathy is our best policy.