Chocolate vs Cheese

Summary

Smash Boom Best: Chocolate vs. Cheese (September 5, 2019)

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Episode Overview

In this laugh-out-loud, family-friendly debate from Smash Boom Best, two beloved foods—chocolate and cheese—battle head to head. Hosted by Molly Bloom, this episode brings together food podcast hosts Dan Pashman (Team Cheese) and Francis Lam (Team Chocolate), with Paige—a 12-year-old baking champion—as the judge. Over four rounds (and a sudden death final!), the debaters use wit, history, and mouth-watering descriptions to compete for the ultimate title. The tone is playful, clever, and full of fun food facts for all ages.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Judge: Paige’s Perspective ([01:01] – [02:25])

• Paige, a skilled 12-year-old baker (and Food Network Kids Baking Champion), is today's judge. She’s baked with both chocolate and cheese, making her a perfect, if divided, arbiter.
• “As a baker, I feel like I’m more biased towards chocolate. But my dad’s from Wisconsin, so 50 percent of my DNA is made of cheese, so I can be swayed either way.” — Paige ([02:09])

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Round 1: Declaration of Greatness

Team Cheese: Dan Pashman ([05:32])

• Dan positions cheese as a versatile staple: great for any meal, not just dessert.
• Variety is cheese’s superpower; it ranges from soft to hard, sweet to tart, made from many animal milks (cows, goats, sheep—but also buffalo, yaks, and even donkey milk!).
• Fun science lesson: Cheese is made by adding bacteria and enzymes to curdle milk. "A lot of bacteria is totally harmless, and some of it even good for you. Cheese wouldn't have its wonderful flavor without bacteria." — Dan ([07:14])
• Special nod to American cheese: “Never trust anyone who thinks they're too good for American cheese, for they know not what a good burger is.” — quoting Kenji Lopez-Alt ([09:11])
• Famous closing: “You could probably eat a different kind of cheese every day for the rest of your life, and you would never run out of cheeses.” ([09:59])

Cheese Highlights:

• Cheese for every time of day (breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, dessert)
• Massive variety and global reach
• The making of cheese is a quirky, bacteria-based marvel

Team Chocolate: Francis Lam ([11:55])

• Francis paints chocolate as a mood-boosting, comforting, and nearly magical treat. “What activity isn’t better with chocolate?” ([12:28])
• Delivers a mini history lesson: Chocolate’s deep origins among the Maya and the Aztecs, consumed as a drink with chili and even used as currency.
  • "They unearthed a tomb built by the Maya people over 1,500 years ago... [with]... a pot... the word was cacao... Essentially, the word for chocolate." — describing the archaeological find ([13:47])
• Mayans and Aztecs revered chocolate for its significance in ceremonies and daily life.
• Chocolate's health benefits: can reduce blood pressure and heart disease risk; only 15% of the population is allergic, compared to over half the world's population being lactose intolerant.
• “Man, all this chocolate talk has me kind of hungry.” — Francis, leading into a dessert-filled imaginary feast ([16:55])

Chocolate Highlights:

• Universally beloved comfort food
• Glamorous and rich history, both culinary and cultural
• Adaptable in both sweet and savory recipes

Notable Rebuttals:

• “A grilled chocolate sandwich, which he presented as a ridiculous thing, sounds really good.” — Francis ([11:25])
• “All that history that Francis just told us... didn’t answer the question. The fact that chocolate has a very interesting history doesn’t in itself make it better than cheese.” — Dan ([17:45])

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Round 2: Micro Round – Invent a Holiday

Team Chocolate: Chocopalooza ([21:37])

• Francis details Chocopalooza—a worldwide day off work and school, celebrating the "food of the gods." Family portraits in chocolate, songs (“O cocoa tree, O cocoa tree…” [22:33]), chocolate currency, and markets.
• "No work and no school. And I remember the Chakapaloozas of my youth, where I'd wake up to the smell of fresh hot chocolate..." ([21:49])

Team Cheese: Curdling Day ([23:25])

• Dan pitches Curdling Day, with homes decorated with Swiss cheese streamers, the Cheesemonger leaving four cheeses in every fridge ("something old, something new, something stinky and something blue"), and a town-wide feast.
• Classic group photo: “We all say cheese. Cause we like cheese.” ([24:39])

Holiday Highlights:

• Both holidays are family-focused, laden with treats, and highly imaginative
• Music, sculptures, and cheesy garlands abound

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Round 3: Sneak Attack – Pop Quiz ([26:17])

• Each debater writes 3 multiple-choice questions for their opponent about their food.
• Both display deep knowledge and a sense of fun. Examples:
  • Francis: “When you see a number, a percentage on a chocolate bar, does it refer to...”
  • Dan: “What is the best shape to fold a slice of American cheese into?”
• Judge Paige displays local flair by suggesting the correct answer for a cheeseburger is C: inside the burger (a Juicy Lucy, [30:59]).

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Round 4: The Final Six ([32:22])

• Francis: “Only three words. Chocolate chip cookies.” ([32:40])
• Dan: “Breakfast, lunch, dinner, dessert. Cheese. Victory.” ([33:02])

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Sudden Death: Mystery Box ([33:29])

• The debate ends in a tie, leading to the 'mystery box' cook-off. Ingredients: lemon, bacon, shredded coconut.
  • Francis (Chocolate): "Paige’s ice cream" — chocolate-covered, candied bacon ice cream balls, rolled in coconut and lemon zest ([34:48]).
  • Dan (Cheese): "Francis salad" — lettuce, crispy bacon cubes, sharp cheese, lemon vinaigrette, toasted coconut ([35:32]).
• Paige awards the winning point to Chocolate!

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "Chocolate and I go way back together. But chocolate is not nearly as good as cheese. You ever had a grilled chocolate sandwich? No." — Dan ([05:32])
• “My kid loves cheese, but when she sees chocolate, she turns into a zombie seeing brains. So it’s just science.” — Francis ([04:01])
• “If music be the food of love, play on. And my friend here agrees. I rest my case.” — Dan ([10:10])
• “O cocoa tree, O cocoa tree, much pleasure doth thou bring me.” — Francis, singing ([22:33])
• “I disagree with both of your options, because I am Minnesotan...The correct answer is C: Inside the burger.” — Paige on cheeseburgers ([30:49])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:01 – Meet the judge Paige
• 05:32 – Dan’s Declaration of Greatness (Cheese)
• 11:55 – Francis’s Declaration of Greatness (Chocolate)
• 17:45 – Rebuttals
• 21:37 – Micro Round: Holidays (Chocopalooza & Curdling Day)
• 26:17 – Sneak Attack: Pop Quiz
• 32:22 – Final Six Words
• 33:29 – Sudden Death: The Mystery Box Final

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Outcome & Final Thoughts

After a deliciously close match, Paige ultimately crowns Chocolate as the winner—though she (and the listeners) are left with a lingering appreciation for both foods. The debate is friendly, filled with puns, and makes a strong case for loving both chocolate and cheese. As host Molly says, “This is gonna be hard for you”—and it’s true for everyone listening!

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For More Family Debates: Check out smashboom.org to vote or suggest your own showdown!

Transcript

[Molly Bloom]

From the brains behind Brains on, it's.

[Paige]

Smash Boom Best, the show for people with big opinions.

[Molly Bloom]

I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debaters are taking on two tasty treats that I would never turn down. In fact, they're pretty good together. It's chocolate versus cheese.

[Francis Lamb]

Now, that is a hard question.

[Dan Pashman]

I really like cheese, but I think.

[Paige]

That chocolate has to win because it's really a treat. My favorite is cheese.

[Guest Expert]

Cheese might give you protein, but chocolate's delicious. Need I say more?

[Paige]

One of the kinds I like is smoked cheese and soft cheese and stinky cheese. Chocolate. It makes me feel better when I'm sad.

[Molly Bloom]

How could you ever decide between two foods so scrumptious, decadent, and comforting? Thankfully for me, this culinary conundrum is entirely up to our judge, Paige. Hi, Paige.

[Paige]

Hi, Molly.

[Molly Bloom]

How are you? I'm good. Thank you for being here today. No problem. We thought that you would be the perfect judge for today's debate because you are a very skilled baker. So I want to know, how long have you been baking?

[Paige]

I've been baking alone for four or five years now. But I've been, like, practicing with my dad since I was, like, 2 or 3.

[Molly Bloom]

And how old are you now? I'm 12. So you've been baking a good decade.

[Paige]

Yeah.

[Molly Bloom]

And what are some of your favorite things to bake?

[Paige]

Cheesecake and chocolate cake, which is. This is gonna be hard for me.

[Molly Bloom]

Yeah, you love both of those things. So you competed on Food Network's Kids Baking Championship earlier this year and won. Can you tell us about your winning cake?

[Paige]

It was a chocolate cake with cherry filling and mascarpone cheese whipped cream filling.

[Molly Bloom]

Wait, so your winning cake had both chocolate and cheese?

[Paige]

Yes, it did.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, my goodness. So this is gonna be really hard for you. So before we get into this debate, I wanna ask you, do you already have a preference between chocolate or cheese?

[Paige]

Well, as a baker, I feel like I'm more biased towards chocolate. But my dad's from Wisconsin, so 50% of my DNA is made of cheese, so I can be swayed either way.

[Molly Bloom]

Well, let's meet our debaters. Here to wrap all things cheesy, it's King of the Curds, the Wizard of Whey, the big cheese himself, Dan Pashman.

[Dan Pashman]

Hey, Molly. Hey, Paige.

[Molly Bloom]

Hi, Dan.

[Paige]

Hello there, Paige.

[Dan Pashman]

Should I be calling you your Honor?

[Paige]

Sure.

[Francis Lamb]

Objection.

[Dan Pashman]

Okay, well, thank you for having me in your court, you, Honor.

[Molly Bloom]

Well, Dan is the host of a Delightful food podcast called the Sporkful. And, Dan, in just one sentence, why is Team Cheese going to be crowned the Smash Boom?

[Dan Pashman]

Well, I think that my argument, like cheese, will be full of nuance and depth, whereas Frances argument will be more like one of those chocolate Easter bunnies.

[Francis Lamb]

That's more than one sentence.

[Dan Pashman]

It has a lot of. It has a lot of commas in it. And I'm still going, your chocolate Easter bunny will be pretty to look at, Francis, but ultimately empty inside.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh.

[Francis Lamb]

That actually hurts on a personal level.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, Dan is parme. Sorry for that. Okay, well, let's say hello to Dan's fierce opponent, a lover of all sweet and savory chocolatey treats and their taste bud, charming ways. It's Francis Lamb. Hi, Francis.

[Francis Lamb]

Hey, Molly. Hey, Paige. Paige, where did you want me to send that chocolate? Let me know after.

[Dan Pashman]

See?

Straight to bribery. He knows his argument can't hold up on its own. See that?

[Molly Bloom]

Well, Frances is the host of another food show we love called the Splendid Table. So, Frances, in a single sentence, why is chocolate cooler than ginger cheese?

[Francis Lamb]

Well, look, my kid loves cheese, but when she sees chocolate, she turns into a zombie seeing brains. So it's just science.

[Molly Bloom]

Well, you can't beat science. So before we kick off this foodie feud, let's review the flow of the show. Every Smash Boom battle has four rounds, and Paige will mark down a point after each round for either team Cheese or team chocolate, but she won't reveal the winner until the end of the debate. Listeners at home, you can keep score, too. You can make your own score sheet with some scratch paper or go Download one from smashboom.org we'll get started with our first round at the declaration of Greatness, when both sides have a chance to present all the coolest facts, figures, and lore about their side. And both debaters have a chance to make a rebuttal. The second round is the micro round, a creative challenge they've prepared for in advance. Next, it's the sneak Attack, a surprise challenge to keep our debaters on their toes. And the last round is the final six, when both sides have six more words to win page over. And if there's a tie, we'll go to sudden death. All right, I hope everyone came hungry, because it's time for our first round Declaration of greatness. Both debaters will have the floor to present their declarations without interruptions. We flipped a coin, and Team Cheese is up first. Dan has prepared the perfect cheese board of facts, figures, and logical arguments. Let's hear it.

[Dan Pashman]

Molly. Your Honor. Thank you for having me. Look, I'm not here to insult chocolate, okay? I love chocolate. Chocolate and I go way back together. But chocolate is not nearly as good as cheese. You ever had a grilled chocolate sandwich? No. Pizza with chocolate on top? Of course not. Mac and chocolate. Where do you find chocolate? Cookies, Cake, ice cream, you know, dessert? The problem with that is that as much. As much as I know it sounds awesome, you can't live on dessert. It's not good for you. And it would get boring. They're called treats for a reason. But cheese is good around the clock. It can be for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. It can be an afternoon snack. It can even be served after dinner like a dessert. That's how they do it in France. And part of the reason why you can eat cheese any time of day or night is that it has so much variety. Cheese can be sweet or salty or tart, hard or soft or crumbly, creamy or dry. You can put it on sandwiches and salads and dips and desserts. And a lot of that variety has to do with how it's made. To explain, I'd like to introduce my friends, Little Miss Muffet and Spider.

[Molly Bloom]

Hi, Dan. Hi, Dan.

[Dan Pashman]

So, guys, how do you make cheese?

Have you ever gone to pour milk into your cereal, and when you tip the carton, instead of milk coming out, you get clumps?

Totally.

[Molly Bloom]

Those are curds.

[Dan Pashman]

The milk is curdled. Milk has a sugar in it called lactose. Bacteria like to eat that lactose.

[Molly Bloom]

And when.

[Dan Pashman]

When they do, they produce lactic acid. The acid makes the milk curdle. To make cheese, you do that on purpose by taking milk and adding bacteria and an enzyme called rennet.

[Molly Bloom]

Ew.

[Paige]

Bacteria.

[Dan Pashman]

A lot of bacteria is totally harmless, and some of it is even good for you. Cheese wouldn't have its wonderful flavor without bacteria.

Got it. So take milk and add bacteria and enzymes. And then you have cheese.

Not yet. Now you have two parts, the more solid curds and a watery liquid called whey. I like to eat my curds and whey together, preferably while sitting on a tuffet.

[Paige]

That's when I like to sneak up on her and scare her. She always freaks out and drops her curds in whey. It's hilarious.

[Dan Pashman]

Anyway, to make cheese, you remove the whey and add some salt to the curds, which helps to make the cheese more solid. You press the curds together into a block, and then you may age it, coat it with seasonings, or even more bacteria or other organisms that Alter the flavor.

[Paige]

There you go with your bacteria again.

[Molly Bloom]

You're too gross for me.

[Narrator/Host]

I'm gonna go eat some flies.

[Dan Pashman]

Wow. Thanks, Ms. Muffet.

You are quite welcome. Back to my tuffet.

So, what have we learned? Cheese is made from milk. And because there are so many kinds of milk in the world, we have so many different kinds of cheese. There's cow's milk, goat's milk, sheep's milk. You can make cheese using milk from horses, buffalo, camels, yaks, reindeer. You think Santa likes milk and cookies? Turns out he likes crackers with reindeer cheese. Ho, ho, ho. It's grassy, yet mild. There's even cheese made from donkey milk. Hey, Donkey, why is cheese better than chocolate? That is a great point, but Francis says chocolate's better. Oh, man, I can't wait to tell Francis you said that about him. Bye, Donkey. Now, let's talk about one of the best, most wonderful cheeses in the whole American cheese. You know, the yellow cheese that comes in square slices, sometimes wrapped in plastic? It is the best melting cheese on the planet. Some people don't like American cheese because it's processed, and lots of processed foods aren't so good for you. But the word processed can mean a lot of different things. There are these super fancy chefs who do a thing called molecular gastronomy and their foods processed, they use processing to make things like frozen cheese foam. People pay a lot of money for it, too. And these chefs, they love to use one of the main ingredients in American cheese, sodium citrate. And that's what makes the cheese melt so well. And, yeah, American cheese has yellow coloring. The color comes from annatto, which comes from a tree, to quote the chef and food science guru Kenji Lopez, Alt. Never trust anyone who thinks they're too good for American cheese, for they know not what a good burger is. In closing, you could probably eat a different kind of cheese every day for the rest of your life, and you would never run out of cheeses. Think about how amazing that is, how these very basic ingredients, combined with a little science, can create so many delicious flavors. I think it was Shakespeare who said, what a piece of work is cheese. How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty. If music be the food of love, play on. And my friend here agrees. I rest my case.

[Molly Bloom]

Wow. A scrumptiously stinky smorgasbord of cheese facts. Paige, what did you think about Dan's declaration? What stood out to you?

[Paige]

Well, all of the facts about American cheese.

[Molly Bloom]

Honestly, did you come into it liking American cheese?

[Paige]

I'm on the border. I'm more towards the liking of it, but I'm on the fence.

[Molly Bloom]

So did this persuade you that you should give it a shot?

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah.

[Molly Bloom]

Excellent. Well, we are going to let Team Chocolate respond in a 30 second rebuttal. Frances, your time starts now.

[Francis Lamb]

Look, I know this is a debate, but I just don't understand why Dan has to be so intent on dogging chocolate. He could just be talking about how great cheese is. Like, I'm a lover, not a fighter. I know we're supposed to be opposed to each other, and we're supposed to be, you know, But I don't want to do that. I don't want to talk badly about cheese. I want to talk about the beauty of chocolate. I mean, a grilled chocolate sandwich, which he presented as a ridiculous thing, sounds really good. Like, someone's gonna come up to me like, hey, check out this grilled chocolate sandwich. And he'd be like, no.

[Molly Bloom]

Pedro's nodding her head. She thinks a grilled chocolate sandwich sounds good.

[Paige]

I would eat it.

[Dan Pashman]

Snow grilled cheese.

[Molly Bloom]

Well, Frances, now it is time for you to show your love of chocolate. So you have plenty of time now in your declaration of greatness. Take it away for Team Chocolate.

[Francis Lamb]

Okay, so picture this. It's raining. You're curled up with a blanket, a good book, maybe a friend, a roaring fire. And just when it seems the day couldn't get any better, what is that intoxicating, delicious, beautiful smell wafting out of the kitchen? That's right. It's chocolate. Your cozy day in is about to become perfect because a fresh tray of gooey chocolate brownies is headed your way. And really, what activity isn't better with chocolate? Watching a movie? Check. Roasting marshmallows over a fire. Of course. Riding a bike, for sure. I mean, assuming you keep your eyes on the road. Chocolate is delicious, portable, and super versatile. It's a snack, a dessert, and a key ingredient in plenty of tasty main dishes. And when you eat it or cook with it, you join the rich history of team chocolate. Back in 1984, a team of archaeologists were on a dig in Guatemala when they made an incredible discovery.

[Molly Bloom]

Hey. Hey, everyone.

[Narrator/Host]

I think I found something.

[Francis Lamb]

They unearthed a tomb built by the Maya people over 1,500 years ago.

[Molly Bloom]

Whoa.

[Narrator/Host]

Check out the drawings on the walls.

[Francis Lamb]

And these beads. Nice. But the thing that really intrigued them were the ceramic pots that had been sealed inside the tomb.

[Guest Expert]

There was one particular that they brought out of the tomb that was amazing. It was painted and it had a lid on it that was like a screw top lid. And no one had ever seen a Maya ceramic like this before. The other cool thing about this vessel is that it had hieroglyphs on it.

[Francis Lamb]

That's professor of art history and archaeology David Stewart. And at the time he was just a high school senior, but he was already so knowledgeable about the Mayan language that he had been hired to help decipher whatever hieroglyphs or glyphs they found on this expedition. The Mayan language isn't written in any Alphabet that's around today. It's written with this set of beautiful intricate little squares. And each square is full of symbols. So you need to be an expert to read it. An expert like David. So they sent him a photo of this pot.

[Guest Expert]

I was very excited. There were a couple of glyphs that I said, well, you know, those are readable. We can actually read those words. And the word was cacao. And that may sound familiar because cacao is a Maya word that we use in English. We usually say coco, and it's essentially the word for chocolate.

[Francis Lamb]

And inside the pot there were some leftovers. The archaeologists thought the dried up residue inside the pot could confirm Stuart's theory.

[Guest Expert]

And so a very funny thing happened. The archaeologist in charge said, well, let's send it to the people who really know chocolate. Let's send it to the Hershey labs.

[Francis Lamb]

Hershey as in Hershey's Kisses? Hershey as in the Hershey Company. Some Hershey's chemists agreed to run some.

[Guest Expert]

Tests on the pot, and they determined that it was indeed chocolate.

[Francis Lamb]

At the time, that was the oldest chocolate that had ever been found. But this discovery led researchers to test for chocolate residue and other artifacts. And now we have proof that people were eating chocolate as far back as 26 years, hundred years ago, These ancient chocolate lovers had never heard of candy bars. Instead, they preferred to drink their chocolate. They mixed it with chili peppers and other spices. So it probably had a kick. But Mayans did more than just eat chocolate. This delicious food was so important to them that it was part of ceremonies like weddings, sacrifices, and even funerals. And that's how it ended up in the tomb in the first place. Cacao beans were so valuable back then that the Mayans and their neighbors, the Aztecs, used it as currency. Can you imagine using cheese as money?

[Molly Bloom]

One avocado, please. No problem.

[Francis Lamb]

That'll be one wheel of your most powerfully aromatic cheese.

[Molly Bloom]

Here you go. You can take that stink to the bank.

[Francis Lamb]

Chocolate isn't just a mind blowingly tasty treat. It's also good for you. That's right, my favorite type of chocolate. Dark chocolate can reduce blood pressure, risk of heart disease, and even protect your skin from harmful UV rays. And while I'm not going to tell you cheese is flat out bad for you, I will say that over half the world. Half the people in the world are lactose intolerant, which means they can't have cheese. Yes, there are some people who are allergic to chocolate, but it's only like 15% of the population, so I'm betting most people in the world are on Team Chocolate. But don't fact check me on that. Man, all this chocolate talk has me kind of hungry. I think I'm gonna pick out a recipe for later. Chocolate chip cookies. Mole poblano brownies. Double fudge ice cream. Cocoa rub. Baby back ribs. Molten chocolate lava cake. Okay, okay. Dinner at my place, 8 o'. Clock. And you are invited, Paige. I am hosting a feast in honor of the best food of all time. Chocolate.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, a very delicious time traveling declaration of greatness for chocolate. So, Paige, what stood out for you in Francis argument?

[Paige]

Probably that there were people in the 1980s who went to like, a Mayan tomb and they found chocolate that's like 1500 years old.

[Molly Bloom]

It's really, really incredible. Well, Dan, it's your turn to make an extra sharp rebuttal. You have 30 seconds. And that time starts. Now.

[Dan Pashman]

Look, you, Honor, as I said, chocolate's delicious. We all agree on that. But the thing I wanna point out to you is that all that history that Francis just told us. Yeah, it was really interesting, but it didn't answer the question. The fact that chocolate has a very interesting history doesn't in itself make it better than cheese. So that was again. It was like his Easter Bunny. Again, very pretty on the outside. A bright, shiny object meant to distract you. But when you really think and crack it open, you find that it is empty on the inside.

[Francis Lamb]

How are you raised, Dad?

[Dan Pashman]

I got a lot of empty chocolates, Francis, and they scarred me very deeply. Okay, how are you raised?

[Molly Bloom]

All right, Paige, you have heard both sides make their case. And now it's time to award a point. For this first round, you can take a minute to mull it over, think about who had the best facts, the most interesting new things that you learned, who convinced you that chocolate or cheese is the coolest. Don't say it out loud, but have you awarded a point?

[Paige]

I have.

[Molly Bloom]

Excellent. So it's marked down on the score sheet. We're going to give our debaters a Break to refuel with a tasty snack of their choosing. But don't go anywhere.

[Paige]

We'll be right back with three more rounds of smash.

[Molly Bloom]

Boom. Best. You're watching State of Debate. Home to rage and rhetoric and awe inspiring argumentation.

[Todd Douglas]

Todd Douglas here with 17 time debate champ Taylor Lincoln.

[Narrator/Host]

Bonjour, my dears. I just got back from a ballet recital in Montreal where I captured a shocking debate faux pas between two girls watching the show.

[Todd Douglas]

Faux pas is a French word for big old blunder. Let's go to the show.

[Paige]

I wonder when Timmy is going to do a solo. He is the best dancer.

[Dan Pashman]

Timmy is not the best dancer.

[Francis Lamb]

There's no way.

[Dan Pashman]

Boys don't even do ballet.

[Narrator/Host]

Not true. Boys do do ballet all the time.

[Todd Douglas]

Little Lillian just made a big logical fallacy.

[Narrator/Host]

A logical fallacy is a weak argument that's really easy to poke holes in.

[Todd Douglas]

And her claim that boys don't do ballet is a hasty generalization.

[Narrator/Host]

That's when you make a sweeping statement about something without any evidence.

[Todd Douglas]

Here's some evidence Lillian forgot about one of the most famous ballet dancers of all time was a man, Mikhail Baryshnagov. Exactly. And little Timmy turned out to be the most impressive ballet dancer in the whole show.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh my gosh.

[Dan Pashman]

He is good.

[Molly Bloom]

See, I told you.

[Francis Lamb]

Go Timmy.

[Molly Bloom]

Woo.

[Narrator/Host]

Just goes to show, hasty generalizations are never on point.

[Dan Pashman]

Ha ha.

[Todd Douglas]

Nope. No they're not. Teeler, tune in next time for State of debate.

[Molly Bloom]

Best. Smash. Smashboom Best. You're listening to smashboom Best, the show about showdowns. Today I want to share a wonderfully whimsical debate idea from a listener named Margaret.

[Paige]

My debate idea is fairies versus princesses.

[Molly Bloom]

Stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more from Margaret. And now back to our delicious debate.

[Paige]

It's a chocolate versus cheese showdown.

[Molly Bloom]

Yep, we have heard a whole lot of compelling stuff from our debaters, Dan and Frances. But this debate is nowhere near over onto our second round Micro round. Today's micro round challenge is international holiday. We asked Dan and Frances to dream up a holiday devoted to their side. What's it called? What are the traditions, stories and decorations associated with this special day? Tell us about your new favorite holiday holiday and how you celebrate. Dan went first in round one. So Frances, Europe, tell us about your day long tribute to chocolate.

[Francis Lamb]

All right, so once a year, chocolate lovers around the world. So most people gather to celebrate the rich delicious decadence of our favorite food on the best day of the year, Choco palooza. Which, yes, is a national holiday in Every single country. No work and no school. And I remember the Chakapaloozas of my youth, where I'd wake up to the smell of fresh hot chocolate and race out to see the cacao tree in the living room. The tree's scientific name is Theobroma Cacao, which means food of the gods. And then we head to the chacapalooza market where instead of money, you use cacao beans. Every year, my family sits for a portrait and one of the local artists carves a life size sculpture of our likeness. I'll never forget the year they made my grandfather out of dark chocolate and chili.

[Dan Pashman]

He was delicious, but empty inside.

[Francis Lamb]

Dan, your aggression will not stand. Plus, I'm about to sing.

[Dan Pashman]

Oh, great.

[Francis Lamb]

The hymns. The hymns of this holiday. O cocoa tree, O cocoa tree Much pleasure doth thou bring me O cocoa tree O cocoa tree Much pleasure doth thou bring me.

[Dan Pashman]

That was very nice, Francis.

[Molly Bloom]

That was beautiful, Francis.

[Paige]

That was hit song right there.

[Dan Pashman]

It was very nice. I'm a little worthy. Your holiday has a lot of trademark infringement in it.

[Molly Bloom]

But, Paige, would you take school off to celebrate Chakapalooza?

[Paige]

Absolutely.

[Molly Bloom]

Yes. Paige, would you?

[Dan Pashman]

Well, that's a loaded question. I would take a day off to do nothing.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, Jan, well, now it's your turn. How do you and yours celebrate the charms of cheese?

[Dan Pashman]

I'm glad you asked, Molly. As long as I can remember, my family has celebrated Curdling Day because, as we just learned, cheese is made by curdling milk. On purpose. Oh, what a joyous day is Curdling Day. The day before, you prepare by decorating the house. You take slices of Swiss cheese and run strings through the holes, joining them together to make streamers. You can hang them all over the place, in town, along the highway. Then overnight, the cheesemonger comes. Legend has it she's eaten every type of cheese on the planet and carries them all with her wherever she goes. When you wake up on Curdling Day, your fridge has four different cheeses that the cheesemonger brought you. The four types of cheese you should have on any cheese platter. Something old, something new, something stinky and something blue. Everyone gets a different group of four, of course. You take the cheeses out and let them sit for an hour or two to come to room temperature, because at room temp, cheese has more flavor and aroma. Then everyone comes out of their houses with whatever the cheesemonger brought them and we have the feast of the four Cheeses. It's a special time to be together and eat lots of cheese. To mark the occasion. Everyone takes family photos, and we all say cheese. Cause we like cheese. Happy curdling day, everyone.

[Molly Bloom]

Happy curdling day to you, Dan. Sounds like a delicious holiday.

[Guest Expert]

It does.

[Molly Bloom]

Paige, you gonna add it to your calendar?

[Paige]

Yes.

[Francis Lamb]

We're not gonna pretend it's creepy. This person has everyone's keys in their house. Just, like, walk around and, like, show up in your fridge.

[Dan Pashman]

Everyone leaves their house unlocked. Francis, you would too, if you knew you were getting four free cheeses.

[Molly Bloom]

All right, Paige, it's judging time again, listeners. You can always press pause if you need to talk about it. Paige, have you marked down a point for this micro round? I have. Was it a tough decision?

[Paige]

Yes, very tough.

[Molly Bloom]

It's a close one. All right, let's move along to round three, the sneak attack. This round is designed to keep our debaters on their toes so they have no idea what's coming. Drumroll, please. Your challenge is. Thank you, Paige. Let's get quizzical, Sharpen your pencils, and get ready to make some educated guesses because it's time for a good old fashioned pop quiz. We want both of you to write three multiple choice questions about your side, and then we're gonna take turns quizzing your opponent. Ooh. And how you judge this round is totally up to you. Paige, you could judge them based on the creativity of the questions, how many they answer correctly, or whatever other criteria makes sense to you. Got it, Paige. Got it. All right, debaters, we're gonna give you a couple minutes to write your pop quizzes while we enjoy some lovely hold music.

[Audience Member/Listener]

When I'm sad, here's what I do. I eat chocolate treats.

[Dan Pashman]

Woohoo.

[Audience Member/Listener]

Devil's food. Mole brownies. All for me. Stinky brie or cheddar that bites. Gooey nacho parmesan delights floating on a creamy cloud of cheesy dreams.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, Frances and Dan, have you put the finishing touches on your pop quizzes?

[Francis Lamb]

I have.

[Dan Pashman]

I'm ready.

[Molly Bloom]

Excellent. Dan, you're up first. Let's see if Frances is any gouda at cheesy trivia. So good. Okay, Dan, your first question.

[Dan Pashman]

Frances, earlier I talked about how fancy molecular gastronomy chefs use some of the same additives that make American cheese so good. Right? So here's my question. Which of the following is not a real dish made by molecular gastronomy chefs?

[Francis Lamb]

Ooh.

[Dan Pashman]

Which of the following is not a real dish? Number one, carrot air. Number two, glass potato chips. Number three, cell phone made of cheese.

[Francis Lamb]

I have almost certainly eaten something that someone Called carrot. I have never heard or seen glass potato chips, and that sounds, frankly, dangerous, but I can also imagine a chef making that up. And the last one. Cell phone made of cheese. The latest trend in restaurants is to give you a box. In, like, fancy restaurants is to give you a box to put your cell phone away so you would not be tempted to use your cell phone. So I'm gonna guess no one has made the cell phone made of cheese.

[Dan Pashman]

That is correct, Francis.

[Francis Lamb]

Oh, no one yet.

[Dan Pashman]

No one yet has potato chips.

[Molly Bloom]

You have. Have you had one?

[Paige]

No, they take the potato starch.

[Dan Pashman]

Exactly. Oh, see, Paige, man, I had to Google that to learn about that. You're way ahead of me.

[Molly Bloom]

All right, Francis, let's hear your first question for Dan.

[Francis Lamb]

Dan, when you see a number, a percentage on a chocolate bar, does it refer to, A, the amount of actual cocoa in the chocolate, B, how bitter the chocolate is, C, how good of a person you are on the inside, or D, all of the ab?

[Dan Pashman]

I believe the answer is A, it is the percent of cocoa.

[Francis Lamb]

That is correct.

[Dan Pashman]

Yes.

[Molly Bloom]

Nicely done. All right, Dan, let's hear your second question for Francis.

[Dan Pashman]

What is the best shape to fold a slice of American cheese into?

[Molly Bloom]

Ooh.

[Dan Pashman]

Is it, A, a triangle mosaic, B, a unicorn, C, a basketball, or D, all of the above?

[Francis Lamb]

I believe American cheese is special among the cheeses in that regardless of form, shape, or appearance it takes, it is always delicious. So I'm gonna go with D, all of the above.

[Dan Pashman]

You are correct. Whatever shape you're folding your American cheese into, if you're folding it and having fun, you're doing it right.

[Molly Bloom]

All right, Francis, let's hear your second question.

[Francis Lamb]

If you were going to grow a cacao tree, would you want to plant it in A, Ecuador, because it's hot and sunny year round, B, Disney World because all the kid energy is good for the plant, or C, Canada, because people are earnest and chill?

[Dan Pashman]

I'm not an expert in cocoa plants, but I know that they tend to grow in more tropical areas and not where kids are constantly trampling them. So I'm gonna go with Ecuador.

[Francis Lamb]

Very good, Dan.

[Molly Bloom]

Thank you. All right, Dan, let's hear your final question for Francis.

[Dan Pashman]

When you make a cheeseburger, where should the American cheese be placed? On top of the burger or under the burger?

[Francis Lamb]

The condiments that you want to taste the most strongly, you have to put closer to the bottom slice of bread. So if you want mayonnaise on a sandwich, you put it on the bottom slice of bread, because when you bite into it, that's what's gonna hit your tongue the first. So my answer is, it depends on what you want. If you want more cheesy taste in your cheeseburger, you should put it under the burger. If you want less cheesy taste than a cheeseburger, you should put on top of the burger.

[Dan Pashman]

I will defer to her honor to determine whether or not that is correct.

[Paige]

I disagree with both of your options, because I am Minnesota.

[Francis Lamb]

You're gonna put it in the burger? Cause you're in Minnesota.

[Paige]

Are you gonna make me a juicy, juicy Lucy?

[Dan Pashman]

You're gonna make me a juicy Lucy. Okay.

[Paige]

The correct answer is C inside the burger.

[Molly Bloom]

Yep. The Minnesotans in the studio agree. Yes. All right, Francis, let's hear your final question for Dan.

[Francis Lamb]

When you melt chocolate and cool it back down, it A, turns back exactly the way it was before, B stays molten or C solidifies. But in a weird way.

[Molly Bloom]

This has.

[Dan Pashman]

Happened to me because I love around the holidays. I'm a big fan of Buckeyes. You know, those, like. Are they cookies?

[Paige]

I think it's like peanut butter balls.

[Dan Pashman]

Dipped in chocolate and chocolate, Right?

[Molly Bloom]

Delicious. Yeah, delicious.

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah, it's very good. I mean, the only thing that could make it better would be the addition of some cheese, but. But I love it. It's a peanut butter ball dipped in chocolate, and you gotta heat the chocolate so it gets melty. But then sometimes, if I don't work quickly enough, the chocolate starts to solidify again, but it does not go back to its original form. It turns kind of gloopy in a way that is solid but different and weird. So I will go with the final option.

[Francis Lamb]

That is correct.

[Dan Pashman]

Yes.

[Molly Bloom]

Excellent work, both of you. Thank you. So, Paige, now you award one point for whichever team you think did better in this pop quiz. Sneak attack. Judging criteria, up to you. Creativity, style, accuracy. Okay. She did it.

[Paige]

I did it.

[Molly Bloom]

All right, well, ready or not, it's time for the final six. Our final round is short and sweet and sometimes quite cheesy. Both sides will present final statements of six words or less. Frances, you're up first. Let's hear your final six for Team Chocolate.

[Francis Lamb]

Only three words. Chocolate chip cookies.

[Dan Pashman]

That was six words. If you count only three words.

[Francis Lamb]

That was the point. Thanks for explaining the joke.

[Narrator/Host]

Clever.

[Molly Bloom]

All right, Dan, it's your last chance to win Paige over. Please present us with your final six for Team cheese.

[Dan Pashman]

Breakfast, lunch, dinner, Dessert, Cheese. Victory.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, Paige, the moment has come to award the final point. Listeners, mull it over at home. Have you marked down your Final point I have. Okay, it's time for the big reveal. Which of these decadent, delicious, decidedly drool worthy foods are you crowning the smashboom best?

[Paige]

Sudden death.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, it's a tie. All right, well, it all comes down to the sudden death round. Sudden death. Your sudden death challenge is mystery box. Paige is going to draw three ingredients from a hat, and it's your job to combine those ingredients with either chocolate Francis or cheese Dan to make a mouth watering dish. You'll have access to basic pantry items like butter, olive oil, salt, pepper, flour, eggs, baking soda, et cetera. So don't fret. Use imagination to convince Paige your team deserves the title of smash Boom. Best. All right, Paige, pick three ingredients.

[Dan Pashman]

First one, we should note for the record that Francis is a trained chef.

[Paige]

And I am not lemon.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, so your first ingredient is lemon.

[Francis Lamb]

Okay.

[Molly Bloom]

Second ingredient.

[Paige]

Bacon.

[Molly Bloom]

Bacon.

[Francis Lamb]

Mm.

[Paige]

Shredded coconut.

[Molly Bloom]

Mmm. All right, so you both have to come up with a dish involving lemon bacon and shredded coconut and your side. Frances, you're up first for this sudden death challenge. What is your recipe?

[Francis Lamb]

Okay, we're gonna make a very basic ice cream.

[Molly Bloom]

Mmm.

[Francis Lamb]

No flavor in the ice cream. Because what we're gonna do is we're gonna take the bacon. We're gonna cook the bacon until it's crispy. Then we put in sugar or maybe brown sugar to candy the bacon. Then we take that candied bacon. And then so you have chocolate covered candy bacon that you're gonna fold into this ice cream. We're gonna make the ice cream into a ball, and then we're dip that whole ball into more chocolate. And then on that shell, we're gonna sprinkle the shredded coconut and just a little bit of lemon zest.

[Molly Bloom]

What would you call this dish?

[Francis Lamb]

Paige's ice cream.

[Molly Bloom]

Nice work. All right, Dan, let's hear your cheese dish.

[Dan Pashman]

Bacon and cheese go well together. That's like a no brainer. But they're both kind of fatty. Right? The lemon is gonna cut that fat, and then you get shredded coconut is gonna add texture. Okay. Cause I'm gonna toast that coconut. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make a very decadent entree salad. I'm gonna use some nice, crispy, cool lettuce. I'm gonna take cubes of bacon that I'm gonna fry up so that they get nice and crispy, but they're still tender on the inside. I'm gonna shave a nice sharp cheese on there. Let's say parmesan. Or maybe I'll sprinkle some Pecorino Romano on there to get that kind of funk in there. I'll get a nice lemon vinaigrette that's gonna be acidic. And then you're gonna have the shredded coconut on top, and you're gonna have everything. You're gonna have everything you could possibly want in every single bite.

[Molly Bloom]

And what is the name of your salad?

[Dan Pashman]

Francis Salad.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay.

[Dan Pashman]

Cause I just serv.

[Molly Bloom]

That sounds delicious. So, Paige, you have two delicious options to choose from. Either Paige's ice cream from Team Chocolate or Frances salad from Team Cheese. It all comes down to this. This is hard. It is hard. All right. She has awarded the final point.

[Dan Pashman]

Oh, this is so intense.

[Molly Bloom]

Paige, who is the winner of this chocolate versus cheese battle?

[Paige]

The winner is. Chocolate Cheese.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, Congratulations, Francis. And Team Chocolate.

[Dan Pashman]

Congratulations, Francis.

[Paige]

It was a very. It was a very tough game.

[Francis Lamb]

Nice work. Good game.

[Dan Pashman]

Let the record reflect we're shaking hands.

[Francis Lamb]

Dan, I thought that was great. I really love cheese, and you made me love cheese even more.

[Paige]

This debate will continue on our website, smashboom.org where you can cast your vote. Tell us who you think.

[Molly Bloom]

Think one.

[Paige]

Today.

[Molly Bloom]

Smashboom Best is a creation of the people at Brainson and American Public Media.

[Dan Pashman]

It's produced by Mark Sanchez, Sandon Totten, Molly Bloom, Alyssa Dudley, and Rosie Dupont.

[Francis Lamb]

We had engineering help from Corey Schreppel and Sarah Bruguer.

[Dan Pashman]

And we had production help from Maneka Wilhelm, Christina Lopez, and Lauren D. We.

[Molly Bloom]

Want to give a special thanks to Justin Koo, Austin Cross, Taylor Kaufman, Melanie Renee, Jeffrey Besoy, Karen Samora, Will Lager, Marceline Mosier, Laura Ewan, and Ariana Giles. Frances, is there anyone you want to thank today?

[Francis Lamb]

I want to thank you. I want to thank Paige. I want to thank Dan for coming in and being a good sport. And I want to thank my family. I want to thank my kid, and I can't wait to come home and feed you chocolate.

[Molly Bloom]

And Dan, how about you? Anyone you want to thank today?

[Dan Pashman]

I want to thank you, Molly and Paige, and you, Francis. And I also want to thank my wife Janie, and my daughters Becky and Emily for being awesome and for helping me prepare for this debate.

[Molly Bloom]

And we'd love it if you could recommend some sporkful episodes for our listeners to check out.

[Dan Pashman]

Yeah. We did one recently with Bill Nye the Science Guy, where we learned about why smashing bananas makes them taste sweeter, among many other things. And we did one all about the uses of jelly in music throughout history. Many references to jelly, and that episode culminates with us writing and performing an original song about jelly.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, yes. Everyone checks those out. And, Paige, do you have any special shout outs today?

[Paige]

I would like to thank my mom, who's here with me. I would like to thank my dad and my sister and my dogs. And there is a new season of Kids Baking Championship Season seven on right now. So go watch it.

[Molly Bloom]

And before we sign off, let's hear from Margaret again. She's the listener who suggested the fairies versus princesses debate.

[Paige]

I think think fairies would win because they can fly and princesses put too much makeup on.

[Molly Bloom]

Do you have an amazing matchup idea? You can share it with [e-mail] we'll be back next week with another epic showdown.

[Guest Expert]

See you later.

[Francis Lamb]

He's got slapped by the judge. Dog slapped.