Gandalf vs. Snape: a hero debate

Summary

Smash Boom Best: Episode Summary – "Gandalf vs. Snape: A Hero Debate"

Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host: Molly Bloom
Judged by: Mae from Northfield, Minnesota
Debaters:

• Team Gandalf: Sam Sucseary, comedy writer and LEGO master
• Team Snape: Shayla Farzan, Brainzon editor

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of Smash Boom Best, hosted by Molly Bloom from American Public Media, listeners are treated to an epic showdown between two iconic wizards from beloved fantasy universes: Gandalf from Lord of the Rings and Severus Snape from Harry Potter. The debate explores their roles as heroes, their complexities, and their impacts on their respective stories.

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Meet the Participants

• Molly Bloom (Host): Guides the debate, outlines rules, and engages with debaters and judge.
• Sam Sucseary (Team Gandalf): Utilizes his comedic flair and deep knowledge of Lord of the Rings to champion Gandalf.
• Shayla Farzan (Team Snape): Draws from her expertise in Harry Potter to advocate for the misunderstood Severus Snape.
• Mae (Judge): A well-versed fan of both franchises, responsible for awarding points based on arguments presented.

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Debate Structure

Molly Bloom outlines the debate format, consisting of four rounds:

1. Declaration of Greatness
2. Micro Round
3. Sneak Attack
4. Final Six

After each round, Mae awards points secretly, which are only revealed at the end of the debate. Listeners are encouraged to participate by tallying their own scores.

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Round 1: Declaration of Greatness (05:17)

Team Gandalf – Sam Sucseary:
Sam opens with a creative monologue portraying Gandalf as the ultimate mentor, comparing him to Yoda from Star Wars. He highlights Gandalf’s immense power, wit, and the depth of his character, emphasizing his role in inspiring and guiding the heroes of Middle Earth. Notable Quote:
"Gandalf is an epic wizard, mentor, and party beast. I don't think Snape passes the test to be the Smash Boom Best." ([07:50])

Mae's Feedback (10:39):
Mae praises Sam’s comprehensive coverage of Gandalf’s attributes and his effective use of literary references, noting:
"I loved your many references to the magical items that Gandalf possesses... you summed that up very nicely." ([10:46])

Team Snape – Shayla Farzan (11:37):
Shayla counters by questioning Gandalf’s mentoring methods, suggesting that Scott's actions are more about manipulation than genuine guidance. She contrasts Gandalf's almost god-like perfection with Snape’s flawed humanity, arguing that Snape’s complexity makes him a more relatable and compelling hero. Notable Quote:
"Gandalf isn't even technically human. He's like this demigod angel... Snape is interesting and sometimes he makes mistakes." ([11:37])

Sam's Rebuttal (12:13):
Sam defends Gandalf by pointing out Frodo’s voluntary acceptance of the quest, contrasting it with Harry Potter’s perceived lack of agency. He emphasizes Gandalf’s mentorship and wisdom, undermining Shayla’s argument about Snape’s humanity. Notable Quote:
"Gandalf so outpowers Snape, it's not even fair to compare them as wizards." ([12:13])

Mae Awards Point (20:21):
After deliberation, Mae awards a point to Sam for a strong declaration of greatness. ([20:21])

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Round 2: Micro Round – Acceptance Speech (26:09)

Team Snape – Shayla Farzan (27:09):
Shayla delivers a tongue-in-cheek acceptance speech, embodying Snape’s stern and aloof personality. She humorously rejects the award, showcasing Snape’s reluctance to seek praise and his dedication to his duties. Notable Quote:
"The end. Anyway, back to this award. Please take it back. I don't do awards. Thank you." ([28:07])

Team Gandalf – Sam Sucseary (28:33):
Sam presents Gandalf’s acceptance speech at a fictional awards show, highlighting Gandalf’s heroic sacrifice battling the Balrog. He humorously interrupts to add personal anecdotes, keeping the tone light and engaging. Notable Quote:
"Gandalf, I'm going to let you finish, but I just have to say I had one of the best deaths of all time." ([28:33])

Mae's Feedback (31:06):
Mae commends both speeches for their creativity and fit for the characters:
"I loved your ideas for both of their awards. They were both very fitting for the characters." ([31:06])

Mae Awards Point (35:31):
After considering the speeches, Mae awards another point, favoring Shayla’s character portrayal. ([35:31])

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Round 3: Sneak Attack – Raid My Fridge (32:28)

Team Gandalf – Sam Sucseary (32:35):
Sam paints a vivid picture of Gandalf’s whimsical and well-stocked fridge, filled with elven treats, magical beverages, and hearty snacks. He emphasizes Gandalf’s balanced lifestyle between adventure and leisure. Notable Quote:
"Gandalf would also have a lot of cream and berry and cheese because he's friends with Tom Bombadil..." ([32:35])

Team Snape – Shayla Farzan (33:39):
Shayla describes Snape’s fridge as a treasure trove of sweets, particularly chocolate frogs and pumpkin pie, highlighting Snape’s secret indulgence and the solitary comfort he finds in these treats. Notable Quote:
"His fridge is probably like about 90% chocolate frogs also pumpkin because Severus Snape eats pumpkin pie all year round." ([33:39])

Mae's Feedback (35:30):
Mae appreciates the detailed and character-specific descriptions:
"I have." ([35:30])

Mae Awards Point (35:31):
Mae awards another point, leaning towards Shayla’s imaginative portrayal of Snape’s solitary habits. ([35:31])

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Round 4: Final Six – Six Words to Sum Up (35:35)

Team Snape – Shayla Farzan (35:43):
Shayla succinctly encapsulates Snape’s essence:
"Fearless Hidden Hero. Snape saves humanity." ([35:43])

Team Gandalf – Sam Sucseary (35:57):
Sam delivers a playful six-word tribute infused with humor:
"Led Zeppelin loved Gandalf and rock." ([35:57])

Mae's Feedback (36:10):
Mae finds both submissions creative, noting their alignment with character traits. ([36:10])

Mae Awards Point (36:34):
Mae awards the final point, giving an edge to Sam’s witty homage to Gandalf. ([36:34])

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Conclusion: Winner Announced (36:39)

After tallying the points, Mae declares Gandalf as the winner by a narrow margin. Both debaters express admiration for each other’s arguments, with Shayla conceding the battle gracefully while highlighting Snape’s undeniable depth. Notable Quotes:
"And Gandalf won." ([36:42])
"I can say honestly, I'm also a Gandalf fan." ([37:26])

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Final Thoughts and Listener Participation

Molly Bloom wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to vote on their preferred side via the website smashboom.org. The episode concludes with heartfelt shoutouts to librarians and fans, emphasizing the importance of reading and public libraries in fostering a love for fantasy narratives.

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Notable Quotes by Speakers

• Sam Sucseary:
  "Gandalf is an epic wizard, mentor, and party beast." ([07:50])

• Shayla Farzan:
  "Snape is interesting and sometimes he makes mistakes." ([11:37])

• Mae (Judge):
  "I loved your ideas for both of their awards. They were both very fitting for the characters." ([31:06])

---

This episode of Smash Boom Best masterfully juxtaposes two legendary figures from fantasy literature, offering listeners an engaging and insightful exploration of heroism, mentorship, and character complexity. Whether you side with Gandalf’s wisdom and camaraderie or Snape’s intricate redemption arc, the debate underscores the rich narratives that make these characters timeless favorites.

Transcript

[Sam Sucseary]

It is estimated that over 4 million people have been abducted by alien life forms, but only one of them asked for it.

[Molly Bloom]

This is Elio of Earth. If any aliens are listening, come and.

[Sam Sucseary]

Get me From Disney and Pixar.

[Molly Bloom]

Yes, it's really happening.

[Sam Sucseary]

He'll go where no one has gone before.

[Molly Bloom]

Welcome to the community. This is the most beautiful place I've ever seen.

[Sam Sucseary]

This is the bathroom. Disney and Pixar's Elio. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested only in theaters June 20th.

[Molly Bloom]

Hello, Smashboom Besties. Molly here. Usually, things at Smashboom Best are pretty light and breezy lemon squeezy. But right now it's more like windy and cold and your lemon has mold. Because public media is threatened like never before, funding for shows like ours is up in the air to keep going. We really need you to step up right now. It's pretty urgent, so if you Listen, we are 100% talking to you. Head to smashboom.org donate right now. It takes less than a minute. I know what you're thinking. Smashboom Best is public media. The people behind debates like sneezing versus farting and jellybeans versus actual beans are public media people. Yeah. That's why at smashboom Best, you don't just hear silly arguments. You also learn how to back up your points with facts or how to spot logical fallacies. We believe this work is important and we want it to keep going. But we can't do that unless you and all our listeners help us out today. Please hit pause, head to smashboom.org donate right now and give any amount you can. Because if there's one thing that's not up for debate, it's that the world needs more smashboom Best. Thank you so much. A quick note before this episode. There are major spoilers ahead for both Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings. So if you haven't finished either series, beware. Now, on with the show from the.

[Shayla Farzan]

Brains behind brains on. It's Smash Boom Best, the show for.

[Mae]

People with big opinions.

[Molly Bloom]

Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a magical matchup between two wizards. One lives on Middle Earth, the other at Hogwarts. One's got a pointy hat, the other's got a pointy attitude. It's Gandalf. Gandalf versus Snape. We've got comedy writer and LEGO master Sam Sucseary here to wield the staff for Team Gandalf.

[Sam Sucseary]

I have not passed through fire and death to Brandy crooked words without winning. Hi.

[Molly Bloom]

And Brainzon editor Shayla Farzon is ready to take up her wand for Team Snape.

[Shayla Farzan]

I solemnly swear that I'm about to blow your mind with Snape facts.

[Molly Bloom]

And here to judge it all is Mae from Northfield, Minnesota. May is a captain of her swim team, loves reading and playing the guitar, and has a deep knowledge of both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings universes. Hi, Mae.

[Mae]

Hi, Molly.

[Molly Bloom]

So, Mae, what are your favorite songs to play on the guitar?

[Mae]

Well, I love rock music, so I like to play a lot of Beatles music and things of that sort.

[Molly Bloom]

You're wearing a Green Day shirt. Do you like to play Green Day or just listen to Green Day?

[Mae]

I love to play Green Day as well. It's very different but very fun.

[Molly Bloom]

So last time you were here, we talked a lot about your passion for Lord of the Rings. So I'm wondering, how do you feel about Harry Potter?

[Mae]

Well, I love Harry Potter as well. I think that both universes are very delightful. Harry Potter was my first introduction to fantasy, so it certainly holds a special place in my heart for that reason. But that's not to say that I don't have love the Lord of the Rings. I'm completely obsessed with that series. Although it did come later.

[Molly Bloom]

Do you have any advice for our debaters today? You've judged a bunch of times, so I'm curious what you would tell them.

[Mae]

You know, there's lots of ways to win one of the rounds. You can be funny or share something really interesting or something that I hadn't thought of before. So yeah, there's lots of ways to go about doing this.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, will Mae side with Sam or Shayla? We just don't know until we know.

[Mae]

But first, smashboom Best is a non profit public radio program.

[Molly Bloom]

That's right, May. Which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show.

[Mae]

You can donate, become a smartypass subscriber.

[Molly Bloom]

Or buy our merch like a Smashboom Best hoodie, pencil pouch or keychain.

[Mae]

Head to smashboom.org to show your support and thanks.

[Molly Bloom]

Now on to the rules. Every debate consists of four. The declaration of greatness, the micro round, the sneak attack, and the final six. After each round, our judge May will award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate. Listeners we want you to judge too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org and vote for whichever team you think won. Okay. Sam, Shayla and May, are you ready?

[Sam Sucseary]

Ready.

[Shayla Farzan]

So ready.

[Mae]

I'm ready.

[Molly Bloom]

Great. Then it's time for the declaration of greatness. In this round, our debaters will present a well crafted immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin and and Sam, you're up first. Tell us why he should really be called Gandalf the Great.

[Sam Sucseary]

Let's play everyone's favorite game show. Meet your mentor. The only game show that matches young heroes with the perfect guide for their quest. Today we're looking for a mentor for me. Let's meet our contestants. Mentor number one is a 38 year old wizard and a professor of potions who enjoys holding grudges and lurking in dungeons. So happy to be here. Mentor number two is also a wizard. He's thousands of years old and likes taking long walks to destroy evil jewelry. Greetings to you. Let's get started. What kind of magical tools or equipment do you have? I have my wand and my charming personality. Okay. Mentor number two, I have my sword, Glamdering, forged by the elves and wielded by Toron, the Elven King of Gondolin. I also have my faithful steed, Shadowfax, Prince of horses. And Narya, the Ring of Fire, one of the three uncorrupted Elven rings of power. Mentor number two, what did you used to do? Before I was a wizard, I was a mayor. One of the ancient spirits who helped Iluvatar create the world. Wow. Amazing. Mentor number one, what did you used to do? Well, I was a part of a group led by an evil wizard that tried to take over the world. Yeah, I think I've heard enough. I choose mentor number two. Mentor number two, what is your name? I am called Mithrandir by the elves, Thar Koon by the dwarves. But you can call me Gandalf if you've read the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit by J.R.R. tolkien. You know, Gandalf is an immensely powerful wizard. He fought armies of goblins, orcs and all manner of evil creatures. But Gandalf isn't just super powerful, he's also really chill when he's not saving the world. Gandalf loves to have fun. He is renowned among the hobbits for his amazing fireworks.

[Molly Bloom]

Fireworks.

[Sam Sucseary]

He loves to eat and drink with friends and kick back to blow magical smoke rings from his pipe. He knows that these things are important because he's one of the wisest beings in Middle Earth. There's a line from the Hobbit where Thorin, the Dwarf King, driven mad by his lust for gold and power, is mortally injured in battle. And he finally realizes the error of his ways and says, if more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. That's literally how Gandalf lives. Gandalf so outpowers Snape, it's not even fair to compare them as wizards. So let's compare what kind of literary characters they are. Literary characters are things like the protagonist and the hero of the story or the antagonist, the bad guy. Gandalf is what's called a mentor. Like Yoda, who teaches Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. Do or do not. There is no try. The mentor is a critical role in stories who will often call the hero to begin an adventure as Gandalf did when he called Bilbo to join a questing party of Dwarves. I'm looking for someone to share in an adventure. And a mentor offers wisdom when the hero is is struggling. I wish none of this had happened. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. There are forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. It takes a great mentor like Gandalf to inspire the humble hobbits and inspire us, the readers, to believe in themselves. And that's a greater power than any magical spell or potion. Gandalf is an epic wizard, mentor and party beast. I don't think Snape passes the test to be the smash boom best. What do you think, Gandalf? You shall not.

[Molly Bloom]

Incredible. Glad Gandalf got the last word in that declaration. Mae, what stood out to you about Sam's argument?

[Mae]

I loved that. First of all, I loved your many references to the magical items that Gandalf possesses. I caught Narya, the Ring of Fire, Glamdring, all of his weapons. I love your references even to some of his past. You summed that up very nicely. It was almost an entire chapter of the Silmarillion that you said in like one sentence beautifully about him being a Maiar and you know, things like the city of Gondolin, everything. And then I also liked how you talked about his role as a mentor. That's very important. And the things that he does in his free time. You also use some of the most classic Gandalf quotes in a very effective way.

[Molly Bloom]

Very nice. Okay, Shayla, it is time for your rebuttal. You have 30 seconds to tell us why Gandalf puts the mid in Middle Earth. Your time starts now.

[Shayla Farzan]

Okay, first of all, we're talking about mentoring. I want to know what kind of mentoring Gandalf actually does for Frodo. He gives him this evil ring he sends him on a seemingly impossible mission that he's pretty sure is going to kill him. He's like, meh. He's probably not going to come back. That doesn't sound like mentoring to me. Also, Gandalf isn't even technically human. He's like this demigod angel who was sung to life. Snape is human, which means he's interesting and sometimes he makes mistakes. Also, who'd want to hang out with a perfect demigod angel? Personally, I have other thoughts I will share later.

[Sam Sucseary]

Okay, Gandalf mentored Frodo. He didn't send him on his quest. Frodo famously says, I will take the Ring, the Mordor. Though I know not the way he volunteers. You know who doesn't volunteer to save all of wizarding World? Harry Potter is just like, I guess I got to do it. I don't know. Does Harry ever get a chance to say, okay, I'll be the chosen one? He's just used, used. Poor child. Also, Frodo's like 42 and Harry Potter is what, 12 when he starts? So even if he did choose, why are you putting this much weight on a child?

[Molly Bloom]

Wow. There is so much more to say, Shayla. Please tell us why reading about Snape is such a good escape.

[Shayla Farzan]

Have you ever read a book that's so original, so immersive, that it feels like you've fallen into a totally different world? That's how I felt the first time I read Harry Potter. I was 10 years old and the first book had just come out. I was absolutely glued to it, reading along as Harry escapes his lonely life, living in the cupboard under the stairs, and discovers a magical world hidden in plain sight. His first wand. His first time riding a broom. First taste of earwax flavored jelly beans. It felt like I was there experiencing it with him. I read it as fast as I could. In the back seat, under the covers, at bedtime, even in the bathtub. Not my best idea. The point is, I had and still, still have a deep love for these books. And As a Harry Potter mega fan, I thought I had all the characters figured out, including the world's grumpiest potions master, Professor Severus Snape. But when I read the last book and found out Snape had been one of the good guys, I was stunned. Since then, I've come to love this complicated and mysterious character. Sure, he does a lot of brooding and skulking around, but he's also one of the most underrated heroes of all time.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, good point.

[Shayla Farzan]

Dobby the house elf.

[Molly Bloom]

Actually, it's Blobby the house elf, Dabby's second cousin.

[Shayla Farzan]

Ok. Blobby had to come when he.

[Molly Bloom]

Heard Shelafarzan was discussing Professor Snape. He's a legend.

[Shayla Farzan]

Totally. Snape's a great example of a redemption arc. That's when a bad guy grows and changes to be good. When he was young, Snape thought wizards were superior to non magical people. He became a powerful dark wizard. He even joined forces with the evil Voldemort. But then, plot twist. Voldemort kills the person Snape loves most and he realizes how wrong he'd been. He takes his grief and anger and he funnels it into sabotaging Voldemort.

[Molly Bloom]

It's like the lobby always says, keep your friends close and your former Dark Lord mentor turn mortal enemy even closer.

[Shayla Farzan]

Exactly. Gandalf on the other hand, is basically perfect from start to finish. Which is, let's face it, kinda boring.

[Molly Bloom]

Gandalf? More like Landalf. Am I right?

[Shayla Farzan]

When you think about it, this makes Snape the ultimate double agent. For years he works undercover pretending to help Lord Voldemort. And it's super risky. Remember, Voldemort is the most dangerous dark wizard of all time. And he can literally read minds. So Snape has to be extra cunning. And he does such a great job that he fools everyone into thinking he's working for Voldemort when he's actually feeding information to Dumbledore the entire time. Here's the thing about Snape that people sometimes forget. He low key saved the world by keeping Harry safe.

[Molly Bloom]

Professor Snape protected Harry Potter when he was being attacked by a werewolf. And he kept Harry Potter from being thrown off his broom during his first Quidditch match.

[Shayla Farzan]

Yeah, just imagine if Snape hadn't been there to save Harry during that match. Harry's zipping through the air hunting for the Golden Snitch.

[Molly Bloom]

Look at him go. Looks like someone's cursed Aries broom that's been tampered with. Oh no.

[Shayla Farzan]

Harry's fallen off his Broom. He's headed straight for the ground.

[Molly Bloom]

He's.

[Shayla Farzan]

It'd be a pretty short book series is all I'm saying. And Snape does all of this behind the scenes without expecting any attention. In fact, it isn't until after he's gone that we realize everything he did.

[Molly Bloom]

He.

[Shayla Farzan]

Gandalf, on the other hand, loves attention. Think about it. Whenever there's an emergency, he rides in on his horse, Shadowfax, with his robes billowing and makes a big entrance.

[Molly Bloom]

And they say Professor Snape is the dramatic one.

[Shayla Farzan]

Snape isn't your typical hero. He's complicated and cranky. But when you look past the superficial stuff, it's easy to see why Harry calls Snape the bravest man he's ever known and even names his son after him. Because in the end, Snape sacrifices everything, his reputation, his happiness, even his life, to help save the world.

[Molly Bloom]

That's why Blobby knitted these for Shella Farzan.

[Shayla Farzan]

And Blobby, matching sweaters that say, I heart Snape.

[Molly Bloom]

Thanks, Blobby.

[Shayla Farzan]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, my gosh, Shayla, that sweater looks so good on you. Wow. Blobby's very talented. Mae, what stood out to you about Shayla's declaration of greatness?

[Mae]

I liked how you talked about Snape as a character and how he changed throughout the series and the sort of mystery the entire time of us not knowing who whose side he was really on. I also thought that Blobby was an excellent commentator. So that was a very interesting take on the professor.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, Sam, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why we should cast a stupefy spell on snape. You've got 30 seconds. And go.

[Sam Sucseary]

Oh, Interesting. You bring up the stupefy spell which Harry and Hermione and Ron used on Neville in book one. And then very wisely, Dumbledore says, you know, there's many kinds of bravery, but the bravery to stand up to is one of the most hardest to do. And that's what Neville exemplifies. And Harry doesn't name his child after Neville, he names after Snape. Sure, Snape is very brave, but he has a lot of issues he needed to deal with in a healthy manner, not through taking it out on the child of the girl he was obsessed with and tough. And your problem with Gandalf is that he's perfect and always saves the day.

[Shayla Farzan]

Part of the reason why Snape is a crabby dude is that he was intensely bullied as a kid. And I agree, he should probably deal with that in a healthier way. He kind of directs his anger and hurt. Cause he's working through a lot of trauma. Because he's working through it. Because he's a human. He's not a demigod angel who was sung into existence. We can't all be perfect like Gandalf. I'm so sorry. I want to be perfect like him. I want his hair and his amazing beard too. But we can't have everything we want.

[Sam Sucseary]

He's got a great beard.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, May, it is time to award some points. Please give one point to the declaration of greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to have. You made your decision?

[Mae]

I have.

[Molly Bloom]

Wonderful. Shayla and Sam. How are you two feeling so far?

[Sam Sucseary]

Hyped.

[Shayla Farzan]

Oh, I'm over here like shouting Wingardium Leviosa. Because I'm like floating on the ceiling with excitement.

[Sam Sucseary]

I'm wearing a robe and I'm realizing that's a bit hot. It's part of the hobbit costume. But boy, hot under the collar.

[Molly Bloom]

Good for trekking far. Not good in a studio. All right, it is time for a quick break. Fluff up your beard and give your potion a stir.

[Mae]

And we'll be right back with more smashboom Best.

[Shayla Farzan]

You're listening to State of Debate. Home to ragin rhetoric and awe inspiring argumentation.

[Sam Sucseary]

I'm Todd Dingley Dangly Douglas and I'm.

[Molly Bloom]

Here with Taylor Loosey Goosey Lincoln.

[Sam Sucseary]

How are you today, pal?

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, not bad. We're having some toasty summer weather, but I'm ready to beat the heat. I've got a blow up jumbo sized kiddie pool, an economy sized tub of sunscreen and a freezer full of ice pops.

[Shayla Farzan]

You should come over.

[Sam Sucseary]

Oh, that sounds so nice. Count me in. But I have to do some chores first. Then I will be there with my pineapple print swim trunks at a cooler of snacks.

[Molly Bloom]

Omg, that reminds me, Todd. I have to show you this video I saw last night. It's so full of fallacies, you gotta fallacy it to believe it.

[Sam Sucseary]

Hey, nice one. Fallacies are holes and arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny. Plus they make it easier to defeat your side in a debate.

[Molly Bloom]

This one is called a false equivalency. That's when you argue Two things are totally the same, but they really only have one thing in common. Here's the tape. Hey, kiddo. You know, you really need to clean your room. It's like an overgrown jungle in here. I can't even walk across the floor. Oh, sweet. I'm a jungle guy now. Like Tarzan. Gotta get some vines so I can swing from my desk to the bed. Problem solved. I meant you should pick up your laundry and all of these toys from the floor. Tarzan never had to clean his room. If my room is a jungle, like where Tarzan lives, then I shouldn't have to clean it either. We should leave the environment as it is. That's very eco minded of you, sweetie, but I need to vacuum. You can start by putting your books back on the shelf where they belong. But mom, you said it was jungle in here. What if the monkeys and jaguars want something to read? I'm not sure they. I can read. And while you might be, my silly little monkey, I don't think there are any jaguars in the room, dear. But there could be. Cause it's a jungle. Ha.

[Sam Sucseary]

That's good entertainment, Tay, but not a good argument. That kid got stuck on a false equivalency fallacy.

[Molly Bloom]

He sure did. He was trying to argue that his room was just like a jungle because both are a bit on the wild side. But that's only one thing they have in common.

[Sam Sucseary]

A jungle and a messy room might both be difficult to walk through, but the similarities end there.

[Molly Bloom]

And I never do any vacuuming in a jungle. You know what they say.

[Sam Sucseary]

What do they say?

[Molly Bloom]

Nature can't stand a vacuum.

[Sam Sucseary]

Har har. Okay, I'm gonna go do my cleaning, but I'll come over later for pool time. Save me some popsicles and we'll be.

[Molly Bloom]

Back soon with more skate out debate.

[Sam Sucseary]

It is estimated that over 4 million people have been abducted by alien life forms. But only one of them asked for it.

[Molly Bloom]

This is Elio of Earth. If any aliens are listening, come and get me.

[Sam Sucseary]

From Disney and Pixar.

[Molly Bloom]

Yes, it's really happening.

[Sam Sucseary]

He'll go where no one has gone before.

[Molly Bloom]

Welcome to the community Verse. This is the most beautiful place I've ever seen.

[Sam Sucseary]

This is the bathroom. Disney and Pixar's Elio. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested only in theaters June 20.

[Molly Bloom]

Brains on Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore. It's alien exercise hour. Hi yah Hoo Ha.

[Shayla Farzan]

While I stretch my snoodles and bounce.

[Molly Bloom]

On my trampolini, I'll listen to a.

[Shayla Farzan]

New podcast I'm going to try Forever.

[Molly Bloom]

Ago, the best history podcast ever. To understand why anyone would think a TV show could change the world, we need to go way back.

[Sam Sucseary]

To America.

[Molly Bloom]

In the 1960s, rock and roll was pretty new. Ford released the iconic Mustang muscle. Come Back here Podcast.

[Shayla Farzan]

Must listen to Forever Ago.

[Sam Sucseary]

Now.

[Molly Bloom]

Listen to Forever Ago wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sam Sucseary]

Best.

[Molly Bloom]

Smash. Smash. You're listening to smashboom. Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.

[Mae]

And I'm your Judge May.

[Molly Bloom]

And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this practical debate idea from Rhea. I'm Rhea from Maryland and my debate idea is Chores versus Homework.

[Mae]

Too fun.

[Molly Bloom]

We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Rhea thinks should win.

[Mae]

And now it's back to our debate. Gandalf versus Snape.

[Molly Bloom]

That's right. And it's time for round two. The Micro round. For the Micro round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Sam and Shayla, the prompt was Acceptance speech. We asked you to pretend that your side is accepting an award and to write an acceptance speech for that award. Sam went first last time. So Shayla, you're up. Give us your acceptance speech for Team Snape.

[Sam Sucseary]

Students, quiet down. Quiet down. Could someone please shoo the owls out of the back window? Thank you. It's time for our Hogwarts Superlative Awards decided by you, our students. Our first award is for most authentic student. And the award goes to Hogwarts seventh year student, Severus Snape.

[Shayla Farzan]

Thank you, Dumbledore. This award is most unexpected. I can't pretend to know what it means to be the most authentic student. Is it because I refuse to chit chat about the weather or the latest Quidditch scores? Small talk. Who needs it? I much prefer to discuss deeper subjects like the latest innovations in potions brewing and the ethics of mind reading. Or perhaps you voted for me as most authentic because you never have to guess whether I'm interested in what you're talking about. Chances are I'm not. But look on the bright side. I'll always be honest with you. If you come to me and ask why you didn't pass your History of Magic exam, I'll say it's because you didn't study.

[Molly Bloom]

Period.

[Shayla Farzan]

The end. Anyway, back to this award. Please take it back. I don't do awards. Thank you.

[Sam Sucseary]

So authentic. 10 points for Severus.

[Molly Bloom]

Wow. Boss move. Rejecting the award. Okay, Sam, it is your turn. Let's hear your acceptance speech for Team Gandalf.

[Sam Sucseary]

Welcome back everyone to the 86 Academy Awards. The oddly grim awards show that honors epic deaths of fictional characters. And I'm your host, Jacob Marley. And our next award is the highest honor for a fictional character. It's the best death that actually helps the story. Our nominees are Gandalf the Grey, who single handedly fought a Balrog, an ancient and powerful demon of fire named Durin's Bane so that could escape to save Middle Earth. And Severus Snape, who died from a snakebite. And the winner is. Gandalf. Wow, what an honor. You know, as I plunged into the depths pursuing that fiery beast, and as we spent 10 days fighting from the depths of the earth to the highest mountainside where I finally vanquished my foe. Before succumbing to my many injuries and passed me on the veil, all I could think about was. I hope my sacrifice helped my friends. Wait, wait, wait. Gandalf, I'm going to let you finish, but I just have to say I had one of the best deaths of all time. I got stuck in a bubble with Voldemort's pets, Nick. And it bit me. Um, uh huh. Now you see, Voldemort thought that by killing me, he would become the true master of the Elder Wand. But he made a mistake. So he didn't actually become the master of the Elder Wand.

[Molly Bloom]

Mmm.

[Sam Sucseary]

So you were bitten by a snake in a. A bubble. And also it was a mistake. Okay, you know what? I don't want the award anymore. Come now, no hard feelings. Let's celebrate with some bubbly. Ah, bubbles. Are there snakes in them?

[Molly Bloom]

Oh my gosh. Incredible work. Okay, May, what did you like about those two acceptance speech?

[Mae]

I loved your ideas for both of their awards. They were both very fitting for the characters.

[Molly Bloom]

Absolutely. And Snape rejected both of the awards? Ultimately, yeah.

[Mae]

Interesting.

[Shayla Farzan]

He's just so humble. He's so humble. I just really want to emphasize that. Also, I'm so glad you brought up the Balrog because like, the Balrog is cool, right? But like, who hasn't taken down a giant fiery demon with horns and a fire whip? It's pretty common these days.

[Sam Sucseary]

Honestly, it's very relatable is what makes him relatable.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, May, it is time to award a point. But don't tell us who's going to. Criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you. Have you made up your Mind I have. Wonderful. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy sneak attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's sneak attack is called Raid My fridge. We want you to tell us what's in your side's fridge. Is it stocked with snacks galore? Is there only spoiled milk? Delicious leftovers. Tell us everything about what's in Gandalf for you, Sam, and Snape's fridge for you, Shayla. And please do it in under one minute. Debaters, are you ready for your sneak attack?

[Sam Sucseary]

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm ready.

[Molly Bloom]

All right, Sam, we're gonna start with you. Let's hear all about Gandalf's goodies.

[Sam Sucseary]

Well, you know, Gandalf does know a lot about what's in other people's larder. When he first goes and visit Bilbo he's just like bring out the tea cakes, the seed cakes. When he was at the Prancing Pony, he blessed the beer of the of the bar owner whose name is Butterbur, which is very similar to Butterbeer. He put a magical spell to make his beer taste really good. Gandalf would also have a lot of cream and berry and cheese because he's friends with Tom Bombadil and that's sort of the thing that to Bombadil likes to make for his wife, the lady of the Forest. And I think Gandalf would also have a lot of Yakult because he knows the importance of staying regular. And microbiotics. And then for funsies he would probably have a bunch of chocolates with sort of like a really good minty interior. Sort of like a creme de mint but dark chocolate on the outside.

[Molly Bloom]

Yeah, absolutely love that. Staying regular, staying fit and then having a little fun. Yeah, right, right.

[Sam Sucseary]

The importance is balance.

[Molly Bloom]

Now Shayla, it's your turn. Tell us about any and all Snape snacks.

[Shayla Farzan]

Okay. Something you probably don't know about Severus Snape is that he's a huge chocolate frog fan. So you know the chocolate frogs from the Harry Potter universe? They're those magical chocolate frogs that hop around. They look like real frogs but you can actually eat them. He's really into those. So his fridge is probably like about 90% chocolate frogs also pumpk because Severus Snape eats pumpkin pie all year round. So like comes home at the end of a long day spent skulking around the castle whipping his robes back and forth and what does he do? He sits down, he cracks open that Fridge. He gets a big pumpkin pie with the canned whipped cream and he kind of on the top. Then he digs in. And so he's a really big sweets fan, which is relatable. It's another way that he's so relatable and it means he has to go to the dentist a lot. So really, the fridge is chock full of sweets, frogs, pie. I mean, I would love to get in there, honestly.

[Molly Bloom]

Me too. Just a fridge full of giant pumpkin pies and chocolate frogs.

[Sam Sucseary]

Wait, let me ask you a question though. When Snape cracks open his fridge, is anybody eating with him?

[Shayla Farzan]

Oh, no, he's definitely eating alone.

[Sam Sucseary]

He's all alone. Gandalf is always throwing a party. He's going to the house next door and cracking open their fridge.

[Shayla Farzan]

Oh, he's setting off those fireworks that everybody loves so much that's terrorizing all the local flora and fauna.

[Sam Sucseary]

They're magic.

[Shayla Farzan]

Terrorizing the plants.

[Sam Sucseary]

Wait, the flora? Yeah.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, May, it is time to award a point. Please think about which side impressed you the most with their stocked fridge and award your fourth point. Have you made your decision?

[Mae]

I have.

[Molly Bloom]

Perfect. Then it's time for our final round.

[Shayla Farzan]

The final six.

[Molly Bloom]

In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. All right, Shayla, let's hear your six.

[Shayla Farzan]

Words for how Super Snape is Fearless Hidden hero. Snape saves humanity.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, very nice. Okay, Sam, it's your turn. Give us six words on the glory of Gandalf.

[Sam Sucseary]

Led Zeppelin loved Gandalf and rock. Did you know that, May? Led Zeppelin, huge Lord of the Rings fan.

[Mae]

Good to know. Oh, yeah, you can catch Lord of the Rings references in half of their songs.

[Sam Sucseary]

How many songs did Led Zeppelin write about Harry Potter?

[Shayla Farzan]

I'm forgetting he wrote a whole album about Snape. It's a hidden album that not many people know about, actually.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, all right. Alright, May, it's time to award a final point for this final six. Have you made your decision?

[Mae]

I have.

[Molly Bloom]

Ooh. Okay, tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the smashboom best?

[Mae]

I am.

[Molly Bloom]

Drumroll, please. And the winner is.

[Mae]

Gandalf. I would like to say it was very close. It came down to a single point and both sides did fantastic. But at the end of the day, the tally says it all. And Gandalf won.

[Shayla Farzan]

I'm Expecto Petroneum with shock right now, Mae, truly. But no, I. Honestly, this was such a fun debate. Sam, you're so much fun to debate with. And I was really, really impressed with Just like your deep knowledge of Lord of the Rings, which I also love. And now I can say honestly, I'm also a Gandalf fan. I'm a fan of both. But you were just opponent and this was the most fun debate.

[Sam Sucseary]

This was a really fun debate and I loved your way to make Snape who like all of his negative qualities in my mind, you know, his isolation, his kind of meanness. You made those all into positives which I just like I commend you for turning what I would have thought was the hardest thing to do into your front runner argument.

[Molly Bloom]

Well, that is it for today's debate. Battle may Crown Gandalf the Smashboom. But what about you?

[Mae]

Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.

[Molly Bloom]

Smashboom Best is brought to you by Brains on and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom, Anna Wegel and Aron Woldeselassi. We had engineering help from Josh Savageau and Brian Hartman with sound design by Anna Wegel. Our editors are Shayla Farzan and Sandon Totten with fact checking by Rebecca Rand. And we had production help from the rest of the Brains on universe team.

[Shayla Farzan]

Rosie Dupont, Rachel Breese, Anna Goldfield, Nico.

[Molly Bloom]

Gonzalez Whistler, Ruby Guthrie, Lauren Humphryt, Joshua Wright, Mark Sanchez and Charlotte Traver. Our executive producer is Beth Perlman and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandrakavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley foyer worker Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Sam, is. Is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?

[Sam Sucseary]

I'd like to say thanks to all the librarians I had growing up because I also got introduced first to Harry Potter and then that led me to reading Lord of the Rings. And so thanks for the recommendations as a kid from my librarians. And I'm not a librarian, but if you're out there and you like fantasy, I would highly recommend reading Legends and Lattes. It's like medieval fantasy, but also coffee and chocolate.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, I love a book rec. Thank you so much. How about you, Shayla? Any special shout outs?

[Shayla Farzan]

Oh my gosh, Sam, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was also going to thank my local librarians because they really introduced me to a love of reading and it was just the most fun ever to enter some of these magical, fantastical worlds and especially my St. Louis Public Library here.

[Molly Bloom]

I love public libraries. May any special thanks or shout outs?

[Mae]

Yes, thank you to my family who fostered my love of reading and of fantasy in particular. Thank you to JRR Tolkien for creating this amazing universe. And yes, this was a fantastic debate.

[Molly Bloom]

Excellent. Before we go, let's check in and see who Ria thinks should win the chores versus homework debate. I think homework would win because you don't have to get up to do it and because it helps you more later in life so you can get a good, good job. If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown drag out debate, head to smashboom.org contact and drop us a line. And make sure to subscribe to Brains on Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new smashboom Best debate battle next week. Goats versus BOA Constrictors. Bye. Bye.

[Mae]

Goodbye.

[Molly Bloom]

See ya.

[Sam Sucseary]

Bye. Read lots of books.

[Molly Bloom]

Who did that Snape voice? Was that you, Sam?

[Sam Sucseary]

Yeah.

[Shayla Farzan]

Oh, my God. That was so.

[Molly Bloom]

That was a very good snake impression.

[Sam Sucseary]

So happy to be here.