#61 - In The Mind Of The Dungeon Master w/ George Primavera

Summary

Smosh Mouth Episode #61: In The Mind Of The Dungeon Master w/ George Primavera

Release Date: September 9, 2024

Hosts: Shane Topp (Short) & Amanda Lehan-Canto (Tall)
Special Guest: George Primavera

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1. Introduction

In episode #61 of Smosh Mouth, hosts Shane Topp and Amanda Lehan-Canto welcome their special guest, George Primavera, a seasoned Dungeon Master (DM) and Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) expert. The trio delves deep into the world of tabletop gaming, exploring George's journey, experiences, and insights into professional DMing.

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2. George's Background and Career

George begins by sharing his multifaceted career in the gaming sphere. He co-produces the Hero Club podcast with his friend Nick, where they record live D&D sessions that are later edited into immersive audio dramas. Additionally, he collaborates with Critical Role on a show called Reslayer's Take Badass, adapting the Hero Club format into the expansive universe of Exandria. George manages to juggle multiple D&D games weekly, highlighting his dedication and expertise.

George [02:30]: "My bread and butter is weirdly my job now."

Shane [02:34]: "Whoa. Five different ones?"

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3. Dungeons & Dragons as a Career

The conversation shifts to the evolution of D&D from a hobby to a viable career path. George attributes this shift to a renaissance in tabletop gaming, bolstered by mainstream successes like Stranger Things and influential shows like Critical Role. He emphasizes the importance of adapting and evolving within the game, especially with upcoming rule changes from Wizards of the Coast.

George [21:05]: "Having its little renaissance, Stranger Things made it kind of cool."

Shane [25:16]: "How do we break Shane's bad luck?"

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4. Experiences with DMing and Playing

George discusses the nuances of DMing versus playing. He expresses a preference for ruling the game as a DM, finding it more engaging than being a player. George appreciates the balance between structure and improvisation, allowing him to guide the narrative while accommodating unexpected player actions.

George [27:44]: "I love DMing. I don't have as much fun playing as when I do DMing."

Shane [28:04]: "What makes doing it for content so hard is you kind of have to keep it moving."

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5. Personal Stories: Musical Theater and COVID

George recounts his early career as a musical theater performer in New York, sharing a pivotal moment that led him away from the stage. A disastrous off-Broadway performance involving a challenging patter song caused him to pivot towards voiceover work and eventually, professional DMing. The COVID-19 pandemic further propelled his career shift, as lay-offs pushed him to focus entirely on his passion for D&D.

George [04:30]: "I’ve been DMing since before I was DMing."

Shane [05:33]: "Can you talk about it?… It was like 40 car crashes consecutively."

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6. Luck in Gaming

A significant portion of the episode explores the concept of luck in gaming. George staunchly believes in luck, citing his experiences of both good and bad fortune during gameplay. In contrast, Shane shares his struggles with consistently poor rolls, leading to humorous anecdotes about rerolls and character mishaps.

Shane [47:53]: "You mentioning that your friends rolled natural ones brings me to something I wanted to ask, which is do you believe in luck?"

George [48:09]: "Yeah, 1,000%. How could you not believe in luck?"

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7. Specific Gaming Sessions and Stories

Shane details a memorable D&D one-shot campaign he ran with George, Nick, and Alex Tron. The campaign centered around antagonistic heroes facing off against a suave demon named Merlot. Despite meticulous planning, the players' unexpected actions led to humorous and chaotic developments, showcasing the unpredictable nature of tabletop gaming.

Shane [33:12]: "And they're like, oh, yeah, let's turn to the camera and strike a pose."

George [42:27]: "You got to the place you wanted to get to in a really fun, unexpected way. That's like the DM thing, man."

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8. The Creative Process of DMing

George emphasizes the balance between planning and improvisation in DMing. While he outlines general story arcs, he allows room for player creativity, often adapting on the fly based on their decisions. This flexibility ensures that each session remains dynamic and engaging, preventing the narrative from becoming too rigid.

George [44:15]: "It sort of depends if I'm DMing like a 10 session campaign for Hero Club. I usually have like a pretty good idea of where I want."

Shane [45:27]: "We were playing like an Indiana Jones kind of campaign."

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9. The Future of Gaming and D&D

The discussion moves towards the future of D&D and tabletop gaming. George highlights the growing diversity of tabletop RPGs and the importance of maintaining the game's relevance through continuous dialogue and rule updates. The hosts express excitement about upcoming D&D content and the potential for new gaming adventures.

George [26:10]: "I do think it's also, like, a smart play to keep the game relevant."

Shane [60:07]: "How about bad luck, zombies and aliens all at once?"

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10. Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, George presents Shane and Amanda with customized rubber dice sets to "refresh their luck," adding a playful and heartfelt touch to their camaraderie. The hosts express their gratitude, highlighting the supportive dynamic between them and George. They encourage listeners to check out George's various projects and the ongoing Smosh vs Aliens series.

George [48:41]: "We're just gonna refresh your luck with some fresh dice sets for you guys."

Shane [63:39]: "Thank you so much."

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Notable Quotes

• George [02:30]: "My bread and butter is weirdly my job now."
• Shane [05:33]: "It was like 40 car crashes consecutively."
• George [27:44]: "I love DMing. I don't have as much fun playing as when I do DMing."
• Shane [33:12]: "And they're like, oh, yeah, let's turn to the camera and strike a pose."
• George [48:09]: "Yeah, 1,000%. How could you not believe in luck?"
• George [42:27]: "You got to the place you wanted to get to in a really fun, unexpected way. That's like the DM thing, man."
• George [48:41]: "We're just gonna refresh your luck with some fresh dice sets for you guys."

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Final Thoughts

Episode #61 offers an engaging exploration into the world of professional DMing and the evolving landscape of tabletop gaming. George Primavera provides invaluable insights into balancing multiple gaming commitments, the artistry of storytelling in D&D, and the intricate dance between preparation and spontaneity. Whether you're a seasoned player or new to the realm of Dungeons & Dragons, this episode is a treasure trove of experiences and wisdom.

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To stay updated on George Primavera's projects and catch upcoming episodes of Smosh vs Aliens, be sure to follow their respective channels and platforms.

Transcript

[Shane]

Hey, welcome to Smosh Mouth. I'm Shane.

[Amanda]

And I am Amanda. And we have a very, very special guest. You guys have seen him. It's George.

[George]

Oh, hello, George.

[Shane]

What's going on?

[George]

Thanks for having me.

[Shane]

Of course.

[Amanda]

Duh.

[George]

Yeah. In your warm abode.

[Shane]

I know.

[Amanda]

And you've been at this table before.

[George]

I have.

[Shane]

You have ran in this seat.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[George]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

The last one that you ran was Smosh versus Zombies and a new one, which was Versus Aliens, which. Stay tuned for the last episode of that, which will be coming out right after this.

[Shane]

And you and your friend Nick both, also, you first came in to help us out with Sword af.

[George]

Yes.

[Shane]

We wanted some D and D experts to come in and assist all of us in how to play and how to run it. And so you guys have been here ever since, But Dread has been so much fun.

[George]

Oh, good. It's a blast to come play with you guys.

[Shane]

That was so cool doing Zombies. I didn't know what to expect. And it's so trippy to be just sitting at a table with kind of nothing in front of you except for the Jenga Tower and that's it. Otherwise, you're just telling a story.

[George]

Getting thrown in with no character sheet is wild.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I kind of loved that. I mean, I loved having the character sheet when we did Sword AF and you guys really went over what we needed to do and stuff like that. But it was so nice to go in with a character that we all know, like a 2000s high school popular girl who I played, and we all got to choose these characters that we all know and love.

[George]

Yeah. The session zero of that was very fun. So good coming up with all their nonsense.

[Shane]

Yeah, so good. So you do a ton of Dungeons and Dragons dudes. That's like your job.

[George]

My bread and butter is weirdly my job now.

[Shane]

Yeah. Multiple. Like, you do multiple jobs in this sphere? I do.

[George]

So, yeah. I have a podcast that I produce with my friend Nick called Hero Club.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[George]

Where we take our D and D sessions, we record them live, and then we mix them down with sound effects and music so they kind of read, like audio dramas, but they were recorded playing a game for, like, live. So cool. And then I do a show with critical role called the Reslayer's Take Badass, which is same kind of thing. We took our Hero Club formula and put it into the critical role universe of Exandria, which is completely surreal and amazing. And then some amazing Dread games with you guys. And I do a bunch of miscellaneous stuff in the game space.

[Shane]

So you are. How many DND games are you playing a week?

[George]

Typically five right now.

[Shane]

Whoa. Five different. Different ones or like, different ones?

[George]

And you're also editing and I'm editing.

[Amanda]

Editing and producing.

[Shane]

Editing full time.

[Amanda]

Editing full time. Producing.

[George]

Dog. I have a little dog.

[Amanda]

You have a little dog?

[Shane]

I have a little dog that I've not seen because I'm playing D and.

[Amanda]

D and you're playing five DD games.

[George]

Oh, yeah.

[Amanda]

Wait, what are those? How many of those are for fun and how many of those are for work?

[George]

All for work right now.

[Shane]

Do you ever play DD for fun anymore?

[George]

It is fun.

[Shane]

I mean, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of the same as like. I know.

[George]

Yeah. My hobbies got obliterated.

[Shane]

I pointed this out the other week where I'm like, I realize I rarely play board games at home.

[George]

I know, yeah.

[Shane]

I'm like, but I play them so much here and I always have a blast playing them here. But I realize at a certain point.

[George]

What, are you gonna go home and repeat the task?

[Shane]

I know. That's also the thing. When you played five D&D games, you're probably not like, hey guys, let's get one going after work today, you know.

[George]

But honestly, I have the craving for like a home game really hard. Like, it's so hard to get people around a table that often.

[Shane]

That's. I've still yet to play D and D like outside of this sphere. Yeah. And that's the story I feel like I hear all the time is from anyone who plays D and D of like, getting the group together is a classic meme. So impossible.

[Amanda]

Well, scheduling even. Even scheduling a frickin improv troupe is like saving the world. You're like, all right, we've got the date. And then someone's like, I'm sick.

[Shane]

And at least improv.

[George]

It's like, if you're like pursuing acting or something like that, it's like a productive thing to be doing for your career. You can be saying like, hey, I got these shows going on. Then take all of the, like, any kind of career advancement out of it and just be like, we're gonna sit for four, four and a half hours and pretend to be fantasy characters. It's a hard, like, thing to make time for in your day, but you know.

[Amanda]

Yeah, but it's amazing.

[George]

The more isolated we become, the more important stuff like that is getting around the table together.

[Amanda]

Yeah, of course.

[Shane]

Absolutely. How did you. Cause it's such a unique career that I feel like didn't exist until probably like 10 years ago. Was when D and D became like a career for people.

[George]

The Renaissance.

[Shane]

Before that, it was just a thing people did for fun. But how did you end up in this?

[George]

Yeah, so I was an actor, like a lot of people who move out to la. I was a musical theater performer in New York and. Amazing. Yeah, it was fun. I like did a very quick off Broadway thing and had like a stage disaster that scared me off the stage for like the next 10 years. What was it?

[Shane]

Can you talk about it?

[George]

Yeah, I can talk about it briefly without going like, okay, but it's not a big deal to talk about it. But to experience it was like 40 car crashes consecutively, all in a row. It was like a five minute patter song that I had to go on and sing just really fast. It was technically off Broadway, so I got in my head about it being like a big thing, of course. And I got on stage, the song started, I blanked for 30 seconds.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[George]

And it is on a track. And it was me and the audience both wishing we were all not there. Yep. And. And then I got back on it and finished the song for like the last four and a half minute, pattersong that it was, but was like shaking like a leaf. And I was the director, the guy who had like, who was his song and all that. I was like, I'm so sorry. And he was like, yeah, well. And I went, yeah. And then I quit musical theater forever.

[Shane]

George.

[George]

I just got spooked out of it. And I was like, george, I gotta.

[Shane]

Be honest, I've never touched. I don't have the ability. But musical theater always scared the shit out of me because every story I've heard about Broadway, off Broadway, I'm like, yeah, it's just the most terrifying industry begging for disaster.

[Amanda]

But also, I love musical theater. I will say the blacking out and like for completely forgetting. It happens.

[Shane]

It happens.

[Amanda]

And it's definitely happened to me. I blacked out halfway through a whole sketch and my friend had to be like, who's in the sketch with me, staring at me. It is the worst feeling ever. You literally feel like you're drowning. You're like, I'm drowning.

[George]

Possibly be real.

[Amanda]

Yeah. But it feels like it lasts a decade, but it happens so much.

[Shane]

I have close to moments like that. I mean, I definitely had a lot of auditions where I just failed so hard, so miserably, countless times. But it still happens sometimes when we're performing here at Smosh, especially when we do like a live show, something bigger, where in my head, I call it like becoming conscious too much where you're suddenly like aware of what you're doing and then it's like, oh no, I need to go, go, go back. I guess I'm thinking like, feel the flow. Feel the flow. Yeah, exactly. So I relate tremendously. But I definitely, I definitely. That just is a real thing.

[George]

It's so real.

[Amanda]

So.

[George]

So anyways, we got out of there.

[Shane]

You leave, you leave that.

[George]

Unrelated, I was moving to Los Angeles already. So I was kind of like, well, I'm not gonna pursue musical theater then in LA anyway. It's not like, you know, there's a little bit of musical theater out here. That's great. But it's not as prevalent.

[Shane]

It's not really.

[Amanda]

No.

[George]

Yeah. But I was already doing voiceover in New York and then moved to Los Angeles. I was a waiter bartender for years and years, but was doing voiceover on the side. The pandemic came along me and we all got laid off during COVID thing.

[Amanda]

Same.

[George]

Yeah, it was 120 of us or something in the dining room and they called 30 people out and I was like, those people are gonna get laid off. And then they were like, you guys can go home to 110 of us on March 15th. Yeah, that's the date.

[Amanda]

That's what I say. I was trying to get out of. You guys can go home for a couple weeks. And we thought, okay, we'll go home for a couple weeks.

[George]

Oh, great vacation.

[Amanda]

Two years or. I never went back. A month later, I never went back.

[George]

I tried to go back and had three panic attacks in a row. Cause I couldn't do it anymore.

[Amanda]

Of course.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

Just.

[Amanda]

Cause your body, you got out of the flow.

[George]

The specials are.

[Shane]

What are they?

[George]

You know, And I can relate.

[Shane]

And you started going to the Pattersong.

[George]

And then I was back on stage.

[Shane]

Sorry, I want my chicken tenders.

[George]

I said, Dijon. Yeah. And it was so crazy hard to get back in. I was just like, I can't do this anymore, so I have to pivot. And I just jumped into doing voiceover full time, freelance, like online.

[Amanda]

Hell yeah.

[George]

Barely made it work and then.

[Amanda]

But it was a good time to do voiceover.

[George]

But it was. Everybody was kind of doing it, but everybody was sort of doing it without having gotten like all the equipment that I had already accrued. And like I had a lot of.

[Shane]

Knowledge about it already.

[Amanda]

Yours sounded a lot better.

[George]

Might have sounded a little better. And I just also had been doing it already. A lot of people jumped into it, like without taking like lessons and stuff. And that does matter when you're doing like voiceover. Yep. So I did that for a little while and then the Dungeons and Dragons stuff, all of a sudden it had been like kind of in the works for like, I want to say almost four years doing D and D professionally. And then it all sort of clicked during the Pandemic. We ran this 45 person campaign and it was like a D and D immersion school for me. And yeah, 45 players eventually became seven DMs, but for me, for the first month, it was me running seven games a week every, like one game a day, every day.

[Amanda]

Whoa.

[Shane]

Crap.

[George]

Yeah, it was, it was. I mean, it was the best. It was like Pandemic. We got like the relief funds, so I was able to like, you know, bills.

[Shane]

You said you had been doing it professionally for years before that.

[George]

Yes, Well, I like DM'd for private groups before.

[Shane]

Got it.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Okay. So this wasn't like content. This is like.

[George]

No, not content.

[Shane]

Just. Just going and running games for people. That's so fascinating.

[George]

Yes. Online. It's just like. And I now I've been playing with the same two groups for like two and a half years now. We play like almost weekly.

[Shane]

Cool.

[George]

Oh, yeah. We've been through like, both groups have already been through a full campaign and we've started new ones.

[Shane]

Wow.

[George]

Right now one of my groups is like, they're all level 18, where if you know D and D, it goes up to level 20. So whereas, like, at the very bounds of what this game can handle, from.

[Shane]

What I've heard, I think you. Maybe it was you and Nick who told me about it. Like, once you get to that point, it's like, it's Silly town. Yeah. You're gods. You're just doing insane things. Like you can destroy worlds. And there's like a.

[George]

There's a ninth level spell, which is the highest level spell in D and D, called Wish. And there's a bunch of like, effects that it gives you. And then the last paragraph is like. Or whatever you want, really. And like the DM will have to interpret whatever you wish for.

[Shane]

You just can't do whatever.

[George]

Eventually just get unlimited genie wishes, kind of.

[Amanda]

That's incredible.

[Shane]

Yeah, you're really just having a blast at that point.

[George]

And it's. But it's a lot of fun if you. If you're playing it with the right people.

[Amanda]

Yeah, of course. And now are you always DMing these games or you always, Always.

[Shane]

When was the last time you played in a D and D game?

[George]

I. The Last time I played in a game as a player character was a Hero Club project a while back that Nick DMed. I mean, professionally. Anyway. I think the last time I actually played played was in a game where you dm, Shane.

[Shane]

Yes.

[George]

Which we can talk about a little bit.

[Shane]

We'll talk about that very soon.

[Amanda]

Yes, we will.

[George]

I played, like, of course. I got my first opportunity to play for, like, professionally. I went with the most anti D and D character you can. I was like an accountant.

[Shane]

Awesome.

[George]

Was a bard.

[Amanda]

Wait, I love that.

[George]

And it was all about just, like, boring people to pay attention to me.

[Amanda]

You were like an energy sucker.

[George]

Very much like a Colin Robinson.

[Amanda]

Yes. Like vampire energy vampire.

[Shane]

So how did you get into DD in the first place?

[George]

Nick and I were in college together. We listened to a podcast by Brian Poussain called Nerd Poker. Shout out. Nerd Poker.

[Shane]

Okay.

[George]

But we, like. It sounded like they were having so much fun. And Nick and I played a drinking game to see who was gonna DM. And I lost. And I went and bought the $100 worth of books and dice and stuff. Whoa. Came back and taught everyone. And it's like, been, you know.

[Shane]

That's so sick.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

So it wasn't like a childhood thing. This was something you picked up later on.

[George]

When I was a kid, we had. I was like, video game hardline into my veins. Obsessed.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

And my parents put like this. You can only play two hours a day on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, limit on us. So it was like Friday, I was on the bus, like, oh, here we go. Playing Mario Kart, playing Madden, whatever game it was, we were obsessed with. And it got to the point where, especially when I was younger, I would literally make board game versions of the game that I couldn't play to cope with not being able to play the video game.

[Amanda]

So you've already. You've been starting this journey of DMing and doing everything.

[George]

I was DMing before I beginning knew it. Yeah, right.

[Shane]

You know what's funny? That's something I used to do too. Yeah? Yeah. Building board game. Now I never finished them.

[George]

Mario Party.

[Shane]

Well, I mean, I'm obsessed with Mario Party, but I was trying to make. And I realized I was trying to make, like, RPGs. I didn't have any frame of reference because I never played anything. Well, actually, that's a little bit of a lie. I did play D and D very briefly as a kid because my brother had the Star wars version.

[George]

Oh. Yeah.

[Shane]

And so he and I played, like, a couple sessions where we were like, just A couple, like, weird aliens on different planets doing stuff. And I had such a blast. But, you know, he was a teenager. He had to go do teenager things. And I was a little kid, so. But I remember just having, like, stay home and I wanted. And then also my favorite board game was HeroQuest, which is like, oh, great. Very, very bare bones. D and D, I feel like. So. But I was often, like, making maps and making, like, lists of monsters and, like, what their stats were and there was no.

[George]

You were DMing, Shane.

[Shane]

There was no rules. Yeah. To it. There was no actual, like, logic to. Or math to any.

[Amanda]

Wow.

[Shane]

I actually tried to run this. It would have been a mess. But I was telling my friends, like, I'm building this thing. We're going to have fun doing this monster. Never happens.

[Amanda]

So me playing Clue really set me up to play the dragons too. Rightly.

[George]

Clue is like logic deduction and that's a huge.

[Amanda]

With Clue.

[Shane]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Amanda]

Anyways, pretty cool stuff. Were you a board game fan? Yeah. You're a board game family. Like, we grew up, like Settlers of Catan. Monopoly.

[George]

You grew up settler.

[Amanda]

Settlers of Catan, Monopoly.

[Shane]

I suck at catan.

[Amanda]

My mom is an intense card gamer too. She would have everyone over for Whisk, Whisk, Whisk, Whisk. Something, something. Wish she was really intense about that.

[George]

Yeah, no, it wasn't Risk or something. I feel like I.

[Shane]

There's a million.

[Amanda]

There's something where she would have, like 20 friends over and we'd play card games.

[Shane]

Whenever I talk to any. Any old person, they always have a new card game I've never heard of.

[Amanda]

Yeah, that's Gin rummy. No, we were a huge board game family. We just. My mom was really intense about tv. We had super restrictions on it.

[George]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

But my little sister would play video games, but it was like, still very restricted.

[Shane]

Yep. Yeah.

[Amanda]

Whist whisked with a T. Not whisk.

[Shane]

How do you play Whisk?

[Amanda]

I wasn't invited.

[George]

It was just 20.

[Shane]

You weren't invited?

[Amanda]

At least for her and her friends. Oh, I played backgammon forever.

[Shane]

I've never played backgammon.

[Amanda]

Oh, I played my whole trip home.

[George]

We had a summer of session. It's great.

[Shane]

We were not much of a board game family. I mean, a little bit when I was really young, but overall not much. So a lot of these games I have only played here. Like, even games like Settlers of Catan, I have hardly played.

[Amanda]

I love Settlers.

[Shane]

I've never played Risk. Never played. You hate it.

[George]

Hate Settlers Of Catan. It's because my brother ruined it for me.

[Shane]

Oh really?

[Amanda]

He stole all the wheat or something.

[George]

Whenever he plays with me, it is a game of manipulation. Let's be clear.

[Amanda]

All manipulation.

[George]

Someone into giving you you don't want if you haven't set up correctly.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

So my brother will just be like, hey guys, George always wins this game and I never win the game. But I can't be like, no, I don't. No, I don't. He's like, he always wins.

[Shane]

He's going to win.

[George]

He just blank faces everybody at the table to making sure nobody trades with me or anything. And he wins every game. He wins every game of sociology.

[Amanda]

Your brother manipulating you.

[Shane]

He sets up an Argo against you.

[George]

He gaslights me as hard as he possibly can across the table from me and gets the other four people or other two people to absolutely stonewall me on trades Settlers of Catan. The fact that that's possible. You can't makes me not like it.

[Amanda]

Yeah. You can't play Settlers Catan ever again.

[George]

He's ruined it for me.

[Shane]

My issue with Catan is whenever I've played it and I've only played against people who play a lot of it. Yeah. So I'm screwed. But that's the problem with Catan is you'll play like I'm like 30 minutes into like a two hour game. And I'm like, well, I've lost. I can see that I've lost. I can see that these kingdoms are going to kill me and they're just kind of who do I screw?

[Amanda]

You're done.

[Shane]

Yeah, it is true. It just becomes a spite game. Like, all right, well I can.

[Amanda]

People get pretty, pretty upset.

[George]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

My family definitely gets like, holds real grudges.

[Shane]

Really.

[Amanda]

Oh, we were also a Pictionary family. Woo.

[Shane]

Pictionary can be horrible.

[Amanda]

Pictionary can be like storming out interpretation rage.

[Shane]

Like you, I feel like you're always. You're most mad at your teammate in Pictionary. What are you drawing? What is that?

[Amanda]

They're like, I had two seconds to draw a pig.

[George]

I freaked out.

[Shane]

Anyways, love that stuff.

[Amanda]

So. Wow. So you've basically been, you know, dming since before you were dming.

[George]

Seeds were there. Yeah.

[Amanda]

And now I will say you're like a certain percentage of people that in Covid you actually kind of flourished a little bit maybe.

[George]

Yeah. I mean it was definitely an opportunity to investigate how far something like this could go. Right. Like it became really important to all of us. Just like the fantasy of it like. And the escape, like that was definitely a thing, but also just like the. I mean like all of my friend groups collided, which is something that is completely crazy that I don't really. It was so like my friend Vinnie from high school who I hadn't previously Talked to in 10 years. Cause I just put a call out in social media. People who I hadn't talked to in forever were like, I'll play.

[Shane]

Whoa.

[George]

But like he knows like my friends out here who I met within the last seven years. So just very bizarre. People were going on vacations together at a certain point when the things went up and I was like, you with them? That's crazy. Yeah, it was really nice. I know they all went to like Norway and things like that.

[Amanda]

Norway to see the Trolls.

[Shane]

Are these all people who didn't play much D and D before? Like you got them into it?

[George]

Mostly. I think a lot of folks had played and definitely played a lot. But there were probably, I would say like 20 people who. It was like their first experience with DD.

[Shane]

Wow. I feel like maybe it's cause I'm in LA. I don't know many people who play it in their free time, but a lot of people do it now. I feel like the best way to play it is to make it a job.

[George]

Yeah, right.

[Shane]

Everybody does get together to do it.

[George]

It's fun. It's very different. It's very different though because when you play for narrative on camera, your priorities are just different.

[Shane]

Yeah, I definitely felt that when we did it, it added a lot of pressure. I understand, to be like, oh, I have to be entertaining. And that's tough because then you're not just trying to tell a story for your own sake. You're kind of like thinking about how this looks. Whereas. So the idea of playing D and D just for fun with friends sounds so exciting because then you get to just craft it for the people at the table and you're not worried about is the audience gonna like this? And you kind of also get to like take the reins off and just be like, well, we can just do whatever.

[George]

Let's get wild.

[Amanda]

You know, it can be stressful when like you're making a video out of it.

[George]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

It's. Isn't it interesting to do something that you love and it's now your full time job?

[George]

Yes, it is interesting.

[Shane]

It's such a specific thing too.

[George]

It is so specific. My parents don't understand.

[Shane]

I was gonna say.

[Amanda]

I was gonna say, do your parents a know. Know what you're doing?

[George]

That's great, sweetie. And my dad's like, okay, yeah, yeah, all right, sure. Right. I think they're very proud, but, like, they don't really understand because you're one of.

[Shane]

You're one of like, less than a hundred in your type of job. If you think about probably of people who are like, probably like working and able to sustain mostly off of that. Right.

[George]

There's a lot of online folks who I think probably make a living out of it, who maybe don't do it for like the forward facing camera stuff.

[Shane]

Got it.

[George]

But yeah, it's a niche but growing world, I think.

[Amanda]

Definitely.

[Shane]

I mean, I'd always. It was always a thing I knew about, but I feel like. Feel like before these past 10 years, it was more of just kind of like a thing you'd hear offhand jokes about, like, oh, Dungeons and Dragons, like the nerds who get together in their basement to play Dungeons and Dragons. But now it's become like the cool thing.

[George]

Yeah. Having it's had its little renaissance, Stranger things made it kind of cool. I know I was playing way before Stranger Things, but of course, at least Stranger Things made it sort of mainstream. Talk about able and then critical role.

[Amanda]

In critical role, there are two vox.

[George]

Vox Machina and the Mighty Nein are their animated shows. Mighty Nein hasn't come out yet, I don't think, but Vox Machina's into its second and I think they renewed. Like, they're really going and yeah, they exploded. They opened the door for a lot of other people. Like, Dimension 20 is something that cropped up from the dropout folks.

[Shane]

I feel like Internet DMs are these kind of like they're very cherished people, you know, And I. But I also feel like you know nothing about that.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Yeah. I feel like. I feel like I will just say, like, I feel like Brennan, Lee Mulligan and Matt Mercer, people that everyone's just like, oh, they're just.

[Amanda]

They're gods.

[George]

People like Matt Brennan, you've got Aabria Iyengar, Jasmine Bular, like all of these incredible folks who've, like, made their name DMing and like, they go to conventions and DM, they do live shows, they go to England and DM in a castle and all. Yeah, I mean, some of those people do.

[Shane]

I feel like there's a certain personality trait that I feel like I see in all of them. And I see it with you too, which is, I think in order to do this, you have to be such an observant. You have to be a great Listener. And you have to be such a, like open minded person. You know what's fascinating? Like doing this with, with you and like when you were teaching us all this stuff, like there's just no wrong answers. And it's so fascinating because you'll try to throw something at you and like, you're just like, oh, yeah, for sure.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

My favorite moment in dread was when Spencer, when like I pop up as my second character is Ruben because my previous character had died. I pop up and Spencer, like, typical Spencer was like, yeah. And I blast with flamethrower. And you're like, okay, yeah, okay.

[George]

All right, let's move forward.

[Shane]

What?

[George]

That's one of my favorite moments.

[Amanda]

I love that moment. I also feel like for me, someone who does comedy, like, I feel like you also get the. You get. You're like so funny. You, like get it. You know what I'm saying?

[George]

Oh.

[Amanda]

At that point, no, truly, we're playing and we're playing like 2000s and I'll say something that feels like something only your close friends would get and you pick it up immediately and you bring it right back to me.

[George]

That's a lot of credit to you guys though, because you do set up these characters so clear that it's very easy.

[Shane]

I just think it's like, no way.

[Amanda]

George, you are so. You're just so funny and so easy to play with. And I feel like that's such a gift to have as a dm.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And to also be like, okay, you made this decision, let's go for it. Like Spencer doing the flame throwing and.

[Shane]

It'S like, okay, it's such a specific skill. And I mean, it's, it's. You don't realize until you, you try it. I mean, you know, Damian, it was his first time doing it and I remember him talking about like, okay, this is going to be a lot and stuff. And like, I feel like you saw him progress throughout the two seasons. And then I did, I did. And we can talk about it here in a second. I did do a one shot that I ran with you, Nick and Alex Tron, and doing that, I was like, this is crazy.

[George]

Oh, it's hard.

[Shane]

This is really hard. Shane.

[George]

Very good. Dm, everybody. Very, very good.

[Shane]

Well, in the one session I did, but it was a lot of fun. But I also think I have a lot of respect for people who do it and really get down into the weeds of like all the rules and stuff. And I've heard people talk about the different levels of playing D and D of like, playing. If you play it really by the book with all the math and stuff, which I love. Yeah. I've heard people talk about, like, oh, it takes, like, certain moves to get your armor on.

[George]

And I'm like, 10 minutes to put on heavy armor. About a minute to put on medium.

[Shane]

That's.

[George]

I might. Yeah, I think that that's right. Right. It might be. It might be five minutes to put on medium and one minute to put on light. But I can't remember. I feel like light armor would be a minute.

[Amanda]

His brain is filled with people love.

[George]

So much useless. For me.

[Amanda]

It's not useless. You're making a career out of it.

[George]

Very much about to be useless because they're about to release a new edition that changes rules, and I'm gonna have to disappear.

[Shane]

So do people. Do people really have to stick with when they release a new thing? It's like, we gotta do this.

[George]

No. Because you could easily just say, this is a D&D 5th edition campaign, and you know you're gonna be playing with that rule set.

[Amanda]

And who is releasing these new rules? Is it like, two dudes in an office?

[George]

Wizards of the Coast.

[Amanda]

It's two. It's.

[George]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

What?

[Shane]

That's the company.

[Amanda]

No, Coast. Two wizards on a coast.

[George]

Two wizards who live on the coast. Wizards of the coast, they put out new additions to keep the game fresh. It's a good thing. And a tough thing. Tough thing because, you know, sometimes it can come across like they're just sort of releasing new content to try to get people to buy more stuff. But then sometimes you look at those new rule sets and you're like, but that is, like, an improvement on the ruleset. And I do kind of want to, like, incorporate that into the game, I think. And I also do think, like, despite it being a little bit like, they're trying to, like, reinvigorate, like, their actual machine, I do think it is good to keep the game relevant by keeping discussions alive about, like, what are better rules.

[Amanda]

Yeah, for sure.

[George]

So I do think it's also, like, a smart play to do that. And I do. I mean, I've looked at a little bit of, like, what the new 5.5 or whatever it is is gonna be. And I do like a lot of the stuff they've put in. I'll probably move onto the next.

[Shane]

Is it just new rules, or do they add new monsters and new things?

[George]

They'll reinterpret monsters. Sometimes they'll add new ones. The way this one works is it's like, 5.5. They haven't changed the core ruleset, but they've changed a lot of how interactions work and some of the fundamental things that make a class feel the way it feels, they've changed.

[Shane]

I saw someone talking once about, in one of the previous editions of D and D that every monster had a morale like thing.

[George]

Oh, yeah.

[Shane]

Where basically when you're fighting something, you roll this thing and it's like, it determines whether it's like scared, it decides it's gonna try to run away from this fight or not.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

I was like, that's cool. And makes a lot of sense, a lot of fun. Because nowadays you fight anything, it's like, yeah, it'll fight you to the death.

[George]

But it doesn't have right. Because like, you can just. If I as the dm, I'm like, that thing is a monster and it doesn't have like an intent to be here. At half hit points, it's gonna run. You know what I mean? Like, so I'll know that in my head as like a. I'm gonna let this thing bolt as soon as it realizes it's not gonna eat right now. Right, Right. So, yeah, it's sort of the rules are as complicated as you want them to be, but also they can be as loose as you want them to be. That's sort of why I feel comfortable like breaking the rules. Because I know the rules backwards. I can be like, well, I can institute a penalty for a failure if you're trying to bend the rules in this way. And all of a sudden we're wagering and all of a sudden everybody leans in at the table of like, oh, what's gonna happen? It could be bad, you know, so it's like.

[Shane]

Do you even have much fun playing or is DMing really.

[George]

Actually, I've talked about this, Joy. I love DMing. I don't have as much fun playing as when I do DMing.

[Amanda]

Is that because you're watching the DM and going, mm, mm.

[Shane]

Just kidding.

[George]

You're really. Oh no, you're really pooping to bed, my man. No, no, not at all. I really love the dm. Part of it is actually the fun part for me. It's the all the time in between where all the other players are doing their thing. My brain can't stop because I'm DM trained to be listening to everything. And I just, I'm like, don't talk.

[Shane]

Shut up.

[Amanda]

You can't like rest. You can't like just be in rest. But then again, you've DMed something when we did a practice round and you really let us go for a while.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And you, like, let it happen.

[George]

But I'm listening and I'm waiting, listening to everything. And as soon as I. I feel like it's time to, like, grab the reins again and, like, bring in the next stimuli to the narrative or whatever I can.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

And it's not, you know, so there is a permissiveness to being a DM that makes me feel less stressed.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Shane]

What makes doing it for content so hard, though, is you kind of have to keep it moving. And that's what, like, that's where I'm like, damn. To play it on your own time. Then you get to really be like, wait, hold on, let's settle for a second and like, talk about this and stuff longer. When you're doing it on camera, it's like, okay, I have to. Well, I have to keep it going to a certain degree.

[George]

Folks like Critical Role, they really breathe and take their time and do those big, long sessions. And people love that, you know? And you have then folks like Dimension 20 who edit quite a bit harder than Critical Role. They really, like, they have a different pace, but that's because those are all, like, comedy folks who came from an improv background and a sketch background that.

[Amanda]

Are like, I'm tagging you out.

[George]

Yeah, here we go. Beats, beats, Rhythms, rhythms. And the CR people are like acting voiceover artists, and they are here to act. And also, they're all buds. They just hang.

[Amanda]

They're just hanging out.

[Shane]

It's crazy how different the different ones are. We have co workers here who are just such huge fans of some of them. The people who are like, diehards for Critical Role are die hards for it. I think Andre, I don't think he'll mind me saying this, but he's just like, I hardly watch movies or tv. Cause I watch Critical Role. Well, it's great storytelling. And that's what he's into.

[George]

And you do. You don't know what's going to happen in a world where so many things are being bought up by these huge corporations and everything's starting to kind of look the same.

[Amanda]

Exactly.

[George]

How refreshing is it?

[Shane]

Be whatever.

[Amanda]

It's from someone's mind especially. I love watching them because they have such great voices that they give a voice and you already know the backstory of the voice without them telling you about it. They already have clicked in. You're like, oh, I know this person. And then you don't even need to see it. I mean, it's really cool that they make them some of their campaigns animated, but it's like you don't even need to see it. You're really listening. Whereas D20 is so fun as well. But it's also, it's so different because it's like a long form improv.

[George]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

That you're with D with Dungeons and Dragons. And it's like, it also feeds my appetite because it's like, oh, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump.

[George]

They're both, I think, like really amazing examples of two slightly different styles of play. But like, really like they still share the heart of like DD is, you know, it's like they love it. You can tell like Brendan and Matt when they go in to play a game, heading those games, they are inspired every time they get around the table, which is really a gift. Yeah.

[Shane]

You know, it's such a fun thing. I feel like we can get into the. So people don't know this. Our fans don't know this because I haven't talked about this.

[Amanda]

The fans don't know this.

[Shane]

Secretive back six months ago. This was last year. While in between the first season of Sword AF and the second season, I pitched to Spencer and Alex. I was like, hey, what if I did a one shot campaign? What if I. Cause it sounds really fun. I'm really enjoying D and D. I think I'd have a lot of fun DMing because I love storytelling. And I was like, what if we just do this one shot? And we're like, okay, we talked about doing it. I will say, just off the bat, it didn't end up happening for scheduling reasons. We definitely overbooked ourselves here at Smosh for a while.

[Amanda]

Yes, we did.

[Shane]

And so a lot of things couldn't happen. And we also were just exhausted and we're like, we don't understandable. But I actually am so grateful for this experience that I planned a whole campaign and I actually ran it with you, Nick and Alex, Tron. And so basically I got to experience all of it. So I bought all the stuff. I bought the books and everything. I was reading through them because it brought back memories of when I was a kid, like what I was into, of trying to create these things.

[George]

Nothing better.

[Shane]

And I love looking at stat sheets. I love that stuff. That's so fun. And so I'm looking through. I'm looking through the rules, I'm looking through the monsters and I have this plan. And basically what Spencer and Alex kind of pitched that I liked too was in the first season of Sword AF we're playing as these like, loser heroes. We're the underdogs. And in one of the first episodes we come across a team of like cool mercenaries. I remember the stereotypical heroes, like bro merceraries. They're the jocks. We're the nerds. They're the jocks. And so. But you kind of only see them a couple times. They're just kind of like the douchebags who make fun of us. They're like, we just killed a Kraken. What are you guys up?

[Amanda]

And we're like, we're heading to Bake Pie. Hello.

[Shane]

Yeah, we're up to nothing. And so we wanted this one shot campaign to be about them. The stereotypical heroes.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Shane]

And so we. I was planning this whole story and what I decided is they're all at a tavern and they're. They've just kicked some ass. They're hanging out there and then suddenly this, this demon guy shows up. This. But he's like kind of cool looking. He's like a Mr. Rogers esque type silver fox guy. Like a, Like a. Yeah, very much. Like, he's got a pipe, he's got silver silvery hair. You know, he's wearing like a cardigan.

[George]

He's dming right now.

[Amanda]

I know. I'm like, what's my stat sheet? I don't feel ready.

[Shane]

He shows up to them and, you know, time freezes around them. Like, he's this very powerful demon and he's like, hey, you guys are heroes. You're. You're the most, like some of the most powerful heroes in the world. And my son, who's like 13, is a huge fan of heroes. So it's his birthday and for his birthday all he wanted was to hang out with some heroes. So if you want to come with me to the underworld and hang out with my son for the day. I love the underworld and just make his birthday the best birthday. I will grant you whatever you want.

[Amanda]

Your son is not well.

[Shane]

And he's like. But he does want him. He's like, my son is a douchebag. Like, let me be in the underworld. He's a piece of shit. He is the son of the devil. So just, you know, whatever you brought. In Greek mythology, he's not the actual devil. I named this guy, his name was Merlot just for.

[Amanda]

Oh God, the wine that like.

[Shane]

And then, and then I called the.

[George]

I called that sideways ruin.

[Shane]

Exactly right. I had a lot of fun with the puns. Like the neighborhood is the bad manners. Because it's all like. Imagine like A gated community, but for like demons.

[George]

Come on, man.

[Shane]

Yeah, it was so many puns.

[George]

Damning is. Is 80% puns.

[Amanda]

I love it.

[Shane]

So they go, and they're at this mansion, right? And the mansion is also down the street is where Merlot has a casino and a stand up club and all this stuff. A nightclub that he runs for all the demons. So basically the idea was they'd be left there with the sun and the son. Then very quickly is like, I want to kill my dad and overthrow him and become the leader of the underworld.

[Amanda]

Wait, I love this.

[Shane]

So it's kind of a choice of like, they need to help the cause. It was like, hey, they were told to do whatever for the. For the son. So the campaign is, how do we help the son overthrow his dad?

[Amanda]

Succession in the underworld, literally.

[Shane]

So that was my plan. I planned out the map. I planned out like, here's every room in this mansion. Here's the casino, here's the bar and the stand up club. Here's all the monsters that are in every single place. And I kinda, I was just having fun creating this world. And so I was like, okay, I got this. I know how this will go. I know how it'll end.

[Amanda]

Oh, that's good.

[George]

I know how it'll end.

[Amanda]

Jordan is like, good luck with that.

[Shane]

I know how it should end. So. And I'm also. My big fear was I'm like, is this gonna be too hard? Cause I threw in a ton of crazy monsters, but I'm like, but they all live here. You're in the underworld, so these monsters aren't gonna just come out and attack you. But I put in like, I looked through the book and I was like, I was picking the biggest, toughest monsters. And so George, Nick and Alex are playing what kind of character? What were you?

[George]

I was playing like a wizard. Yes, you were a wizard.

[Shane]

You were like this old wizard.

[Amanda]

Wizards on the coast.

[Shane]

You were this old wizard. George or Nick played as a paladin, who was the most righteous paladin of all time.

[Amanda]

God.

[Shane]

He starts off servant of the light. I'm like, told you guys. I was like, I want you guys to try to mess this up as much as possible. I was like, throw. Throw everything at me so that I'm prepared for anything. So I. They knew that this story takes place in the underworld. I think I had briefed you guys on that. So the first thing out of Nick's mouth when we start this campaign is, and I will strike any undead being I see. Like, I refuse to not attack them and smite them. I was like, great. So this all takes place in the Underworld.

[Amanda]

Thanks.

[George]

It's gonna be.

[Shane]

Basically, you're gonna attack everything you see. And then Alex was a rogue. And so they start off in the tavern. I'm like, yeah, you see this, like, this lady by the. By the bar, she's got, like, a nice, like, necklace on, whatever. And Alex just like, I'm gonna steal it. And I'm like, okay, like, we're just doing this. You guys immediately got into a fight right there at the bar and, like, beat up a guy. But then I get you guys to the Underworld, and just the way you're acting towards everything was just insane. I had to keep being like, okay, change of plans.

[George]

And we had a mission to mess it up.

[Shane]

I will say we had a mission.

[Amanda]

You did, and that was amazing.

[Shane]

I had plans for how all this. I had laid all these things. Cause basically, what I hope that they would infer and figure out is the goal is to make the son believe in himself. If he believes in himself, he can become whatever he wants because he's a super demon now. I left, like, motivational books all over the place. I left, like, all sorts of things. Didn't pick it up once. That infer. They did not give a shit about any of it. But they come to the. They go to the son's room, and he is trying to be a Twitch streamer. Is my whole streaming on Lich.

[Amanda]

God.

[George]

And how do you not glom onto that as a player immediately? So he's a Twitch streamer thing.

[Shane]

He's a Twitch streamer. And I was like. But that was kind of like. I had not put much thought into that other than, yeah, he's just playing Twitch. That's when you find him. And you guys immediately are like, let's take the Twitch setup with us. Let's record everything we do and make him the most famous Twitch streamer. And I was like, you got it. That's what we're doing now. And that became the whole focus of this campaign, this practice session that we did. And I had not prepared for any of that. So the entire time, you guys would do anything. And he'd be like, all right, let's turn to the camera and strike a pose.

[George]

Let's just start a hype train.

[Shane]

I was like, a roll to do that. And I had. I don't have. I don't know the rules. So you guys would roll. You'd be like, we rolled a 13. I'm like, yeah, okay, sure. And it goes insane. It gets to a point where I'm like. They roll up to the casino and a valet opens the door for him. I'm like. It's like a skeleton valet opens the door and Nick is just like. And I strike him immediately. Instead of my. I had planned in this casino hand, I had cards, I had dice with me that they could go into this casino and play any casino game they wanted. And I would have been prepared to do all of that. They could have gone to the standup club. They could have gone. I had all these things. But no. They burst into this casino, attacking everything immediately.

[George]

Dude.

[Amanda]

Release the tapes.

[Shane]

We don't have it. We don't have it. It was a practice session.

[Amanda]

Fans are gonna want you to do a one shot easily. Did you ever do another one shot?

[Shane]

If I did a one shot, I would wanna do something different. Different. Because basically this ties in so much to Sword af. The end. What happens is they. They caused so much of a ruckus that I had to basically fast track it to the final fight. And Merlot shows up and he's like, what the hell are you doing? And they.

[Amanda]

He.

[Shane]

He then suddenly summons. They're in a gigantic coliseum in, like, a gladiator game situation. And then Merlot lets them know, like, every year his son asks to hang out with heroes. Because every year his son tries to overthrow him. And every year he kills these heroes that come here. He's like, you guys are dead. He's like. And there's all these demons everywhere. I've got, like, Cthulhu, like, looking over and stuff, and I'm like. I'm like, oh, I've got all these demons here. But I know what you guys are afraid of. You guys, you're these heroes, but you know that you're just the side characters in this world that the main heroes are out there. And you're afraid of facing the fact that you're just side characters and you are expendable. And then he summons rich horror. And then he summons the, like, demon versions of all the characters in Sword af. So, like, a demon version of Fernie and Dolores and all these things. And it ends with them fighting the sort of heroes.

[Amanda]

Did Dolores do any, like, back flips?

[Shane]

She does some crazy routines. Well, this is also where I learned that you guys are professional D and D players. Because I was like, this is gonna be really hard. I'm like, oh, we. If we had been playing this and. And I. And we faced these monsters that I had created, I think we would have Gotten our asses kicked.

[Amanda]

Yeah, probably.

[Shane]

They didn't get hit once. Nick was like, okay, so I'm gonna put up this shield and. Okay, now what. What kind of creatures? This sounds like it's like an un. It's like an undead spirit thing. He's like. He's like, okay, good. So I get. Plus this.

[George]

I got an extra G8 because they're fiend. Undead on a smite.

[Amanda]

Dude, of course.

[Shane]

They're saying so much stuff. I know they're not lying to me. I'm like, yeah, I know. That's true. Yep. That's probably true, too. I mean, just crushing this shit.

[Amanda]

I love it.

[Shane]

Damn. Okay. But they. They defeat him, and then at the end, the. The son is there, and he's like, now you guys are my servants here in hell forever. Basically, I said. I was like, there's no win. Like, you're gonna lose no matter what. You're in the underworld. Such a great DM move, though, because it was funny.

[George]

You got to the place you wanted to get to in a really fun, unexpected way. That's like the DM thing, man.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Is that. Is that your hope, usually to get to the place that I roughly planned?

[George]

Yeah, I think so. Right. Because you saw all the things we were passing, right. But then you were like. You still had these little leapfrog stones where you were like, well, they're gonna get here. The casino.

[Shane]

Exactly.

[George]

They're gonna get here. It doesn't really matter how they get there as long as they get there. Right?

[Shane]

And I had thought about. I'm like, what if they try to just go off the grid? I'm like, okay, then I will just go off the grid.

[Amanda]

And if they went off the grid, would you try to bring them back to the place?

[Shane]

My fail safe was that I'm like, no matter what they do, they're gonna piss off the devil. Like, they're gonna cause so much chaos. I knew they were gonna cause so much chaos that no matter what, they're gonna piss him off. And they're gonna go to the Coliseum. They're gonna go there because they're gonna piss him off. So that was my fail safe.

[Amanda]

That's.

[Shane]

And it worked.

[Amanda]

I love that.

[Shane]

But it was funny because I had you planned so much, and then it doesn't happen. And I remember you told me a thing once about how you had, like, planned all this, these artifacts and things for your players to use, and they were just like, yeah, we're gonna burn this place down.

[George]

Nick loves this story. Nick's Like. Cause I was still a new dm and I had punished them so hard through this campaign of just like, I killed like three of them. They had old, new characters. They were coming in as like, we were traveling through hell. And I was like, all right, time to pump the brakes. I gotta give these guys a power bump. We're give them some stuff to handle this stuff a little better. I had betrayed them so many times as their DM that they were like, all these magic rings all bad. Burn this house to the ground. And they burned the whole thing to the ground. And I was like, 12 insanely powerful magic rings that I just went, oh. Threw it away. And we kept going. And I was just like, all right, they don't want it because you can't.

[Amanda]

You can only. Do you plan out your whole campaign with like, route A, like, different. Choose your own adventure. Like, multiple ways to get there?

[George]

That's a great question. It sort of depends if I'm DMing like a 10 session campaign for Hero Club. I usually have like, a pretty good idea of where I want, like. Cause I usually plan things in like three episode arcs is like my favorite thing to do. So I'll know, like, the general idea for those last couple arcs, but I'll wait till I've seen the first two to really populate them with any details. Because one of the craziest things I've ever experienced in a game was we're playing like an Indiana Jones kind of campaign sort of time period, 1910s, a little prior fun. And it was like all magical artifacts and stuff called City of Mirrors and on the Hunt for the City of Mirrors, one of our NPC games, just like improv'd a monkey idol that they gave one of the players. And I was like, oh, well, that's a cursed item. I don't know what that's gonna be. But I just quickly wrote some lore for whatever this thing was. And then it was speaking to them in their dreams and trying to convince whoever had touched the idol. It was like, hey, he's gonna kill you in your sneeze for me. What? You have to stop him from killing you because he'll get all my power and you won't get any of my power. And he would appear to them as like, heightened versions of themselves. So to the British explorer, it was like, my good man, hello. And then to the pilot guy was like, hey, we're flying. I'm the monkey idol from your dreams.

[Shane]

So funny.

[George]

But they both rolled natural ones to resist the monkey's pull in the same episode back to back. And all of a sudden I'm like, well, I need an extra episode to resolve this.

[Shane]

So we so funny for like a.

[George]

Mushroom trip episode where they had to resolve their differences with the monkey idol and themselves. And it was like, you know, so I didn't plan and like, that was like a huge gift that I hadn't planned too much.

[Amanda]

Right. It's good that you didn't plan too much, but you had the ending kind of in your mind.

[George]

I knew we were gonna end up like in City of Mirrors.

[Shane]

Okay, okay.

[George]

And I knew roughly what the City of Mirrors was. Cause we were doing a lot of like, Norse and Judeo Christian blending of like mythology. So I knew like, what it was, but I didn't know how we were gonna get there. I didn't know if we were gonna get there and blow the place up or if we were gonna try to take the place's power. Kind of both ended up being the case, but. Yeah.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

One of the things I love in Sword AF in the second season is when you guys go to the fae court for the first time and you're all trying your different ploys and that whole. You guys felt that the freedom opened up and you guys expressed your characters in this really true way. Especially you and Chance with your aerial routine in the middle of the thing. Super fun when you get your weaponry in that final dungeon where you're like got like a machine gun.

[Shane]

Yeah. You know it well. Cause you edited.

[George]

I did, I did, yeah.

[Amanda]

You edited all of stuff.

[George]

One of the editors for Sword AF2.

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah.

[George]

That was a blast.

[Shane]

It was crazy. I mean, the tough thing with Sword AF was doing it all in one week, you know? Cause with our schedule.

[George]

I feel ya.

[Shane]

I think the problem is with our schedule.

[George]

We've done that too. It's a tough schedule.

[Shane]

And we were also learning like, I was learning it and you know, fitting it in while also filming all the other things we do. Oh, right. And so when you add other stuff.

[George]

To it, that's where it gets really.

[Shane]

That's. I think that was ultimately why we like, are like. We're like, okay, after this season, we're taking a break. We need or. And dread is so much more easy because we can film it in a day.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

It's like, not as much prep for it.

[George]

There's so many TTRPGs out there. DND is not the only one. Dread's not the only one. There's lots.

[Shane]

I would love to do a one shot. You know, I think that's That's. That seems manageable. I would want to come up with a new story, but D and D is right.

[George]

Cause it's like common. It's like when you're talking, like languages in D and D, it's like, you know, it's the one that most people have some familiarity with when they know TTRPGs. And then you can kind of branch out from there to other interesting ones too.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Shane]

You mentioning that your friends rolled natural ones brings me to something I wanted to ask, which is do you believe in luck? Like the concept of luck, because it's such an integral part. Very much RPGs of video games, of everything. You believe in it?

[George]

Yeah, 1,000%. How could you not believe in luck?

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Shane]

It's funny.

[George]

I've seen too much consistent bad luck and too much consistent good luck to.

[Shane]

Not believe in it. Yeah. So I'm a skeptic in general, but when it comes to luck, I, on an instinctual, subconscious level, am such a believer because of my bad luck in certain speeds.

[Amanda]

He has really bad luck rolling.

[George]

This is a perfect segue. So hopefully we're gonna turn something around right now. I love. I have a little surprise in my cute little bag.

[Shane]

Oh, God.

[George]

We're just gonna. We're gonna refresh your luck with some fresh dice sets for you guys. I tried to pick stuff that kind of perfectly emulated for you guys. I got you a little dice gift.

[Amanda]

Are you serious?

[Shane]

I'm gonna get the bad luck outta here.

[George]

So that's Dolores as I could get. And then I couldn't decide which one for Fernie. So you can mix and match them because you've got the nature and you got the fire.

[Shane]

Thank you.

[George]

So feel free to split them around and mix them up.

[Shane]

That's so cute.

[George]

And they're. They're like rubber.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

So the sound people won't be mad at me. That's awesome, George.

[Shane]

Oh, and then this won't mess up the table.

[George]

Won't mess up the table. I was gonna like metal dice. And I was like, they will destroy their table in three rolls.

[Shane]

So Spencer and Alex would be like, why didn't we use rubber dice before? George is so sick.

[George]

And they're fun to just like, squish around.

[Shane]

I rolled the six and I got a one.

[George]

No way, honey.

[Amanda]

That's fairing.

[George]

You take that D6 away and you get the green D6.

[Shane]

Okay. Okay. I've heard about people talking about dice jails.

[George]

Yes. Yes. Dice Dunstable. Of course.

[Amanda]

This is so fucking awesome.

[George]

This is Hell yeah.

[Shane]

Sick. Thank you.

[George]

Take them into your next journeys. Look at that. Okay, that's 10.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Amanda]

I have pretty good rolls. I have pretty good roll up.

[Shane]

Good roll up.

[George]

The D20s are the arbiters of if the set's gonna be lucky.

[Shane]

Yeah. So where my luck was really bad was before we did dd, we did a series called Bored AF Legacy where we played Betrayal Legacy.

[George]

Oh, awesome.

[Shane]

And it was a lot of fun. And the dice, the dice in that game are, they are 0 to 2 and you have several dice and you're rolling them. And throughout the entire series, I was rolling so horribly, people actually don't even understand how horribly I rolled because there were some games where I was rolling so badly that they would, they would be like, and sorry if this breaks some of the fun. This, we don't do this often. But they would be like, okay, Shane, can you, can you reroll?

[Amanda]

You gotta reroll.

[Shane]

And I would, and I would reroll like three or four times.

[Amanda]

It was really embarrassing because it was.

[Shane]

Like, it was like, otherwise it was like, oh, your character just doesn't do.

[Amanda]

Anything or doesn't like, talk.

[Shane]

Yeah. Doesn't actually get to exist. So let's reroll for entertainment purposes here.

[George]

So you should talk.

[Shane]

But like, it was so horrendous at a certain point, like, my character would be so juiced up and should be so strong that he's taking people out. And I would roll six dice and get like a two. And it's like, I don't know how this is happening, but specifically with dice and cards, I have really bad luck.

[George]

That's a lot of the things that determine.

[Shane]

Yeah, I think I have general good luck.

[George]

Okay.

[Shane]

Overall, like, for life, like in life, like whenever I'm at an airport, I'm like, I know things are going to work out today. Wow, I wish I was you.

[Amanda]

Wow, that's awesome.

[George]

I would trade dice luck for that.

[Shane]

Exactly. No, I, I, I complain about it when I'm at the table, but I'm not sitting around going, oh, I'm the lowest unlucky person. I'm very lucky in so many spheres that my, what I say to myself is, you know what? This is the area where I have bad luck because I have good luck everywhere else. Like, everything tends to work out. You know, inconveniences always seem to kind of like, subside for me in most ways. But dice, dice, dice.

[Amanda]

I have bad luck, you have bad luck luck. I, I feel like I have pretty good luck. I have pretty good luck with darts.

[Shane]

With dice Darts is skill.

[Amanda]

Oh, that's a skill.

[Shane]

Dice is truly, truly.

[Amanda]

See, I just got a compliment out of that. That's awesome. So how do we break Shane's bad luck?

[Shane]

All right, should I roll this D20 and see what I get?

[George]

Yeah, yeah, I think we definitely.

[Amanda]

These dice are so cool, George. Thank you.

[George]

Yeah, you're very welcome.

[Shane]

If I roll in that one, guys, what does it mean?

[Amanda]

Well, we talked about it.

[Shane]

Here I go.

[George]

They're hard to read. That is an 18, Shane.

[Shane]

Yo, yo, Wait.

[Amanda]

I hope you didn't transfer your bad luck to me.

[Shane]

Now you have it. That's a five.

[Amanda]

That's my favorite number. My favorite number ever.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Amanda]

It's my favorite number.

[Shane]

That actually counts as 20.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it's actually 20. That's my favorite number.

[Shane]

So we're good? Yeah. It's so funny, man. Like, I know it's not the case because I would roll plenty of good times, but I would only think about the bad times.

[George]

I don't know, man. I've seen some people, especially, like, in our reslayers, take Game. We have one of our players who literally seems like she can't roll above a five.

[Shane]

Really?

[George]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

That's so frustrating when you're playing.

[George]

Oh, I feel. Yeah, I can see the frustration. But it does lead to some very funny stuff. So it's always, like, worth it. We're always. I'm always excited when Cheryl's terribly into various, you know, dire situation. But, like, as a player, you're like, well, I am incapacitated for the ninth time.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[George]

You know, it's. It can beat.

[Amanda]

And then when you play. When you play dread, you don't have to roll at all. You just have to pull Jenga and really is. And you know what?

[Shane]

And yet I was the one who died twice.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And yet it didn't really work out for you, Shane.

[Shane]

Yeah. How was your luck in Versus Aliens?

[Amanda]

Well, since the second episode is coming out after this, I won't give away too much, but. But I play a. We're all at a sleepover. We're all middle schoolers. I play the kid who has divorced parents, and I'm a little bit of.

[Shane]

An arsonist as they are.

[Amanda]

Yeah. You know, a little bit of an arsonist. I kind of hide things from my mom.

[Shane]

You dabble?

[Amanda]

Yeah. My hair is always slightly. A little bit greasy and in one eye.

[Shane]

What year does this take place?

[George]

2002.

[Shane]

I love how that's the era that we picked. We're like, this all happened then.

[George]

I think there's A world where it's all happened at the same time, you know, Slightly different.

[Shane]

There's always a chance.

[George]

Yeah, there's always a chance. I feel like.

[Shane]

How about bad luck, zombies and aliens all at once?

[Amanda]

Exactly. I feel like Smosh versus Aliens. I feel like most of us had. I don't know if we had good luck.

[George]

I will say this.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

Because we've seen episode one, Right.

[Amanda]

We've seen episode one. We haven't seen episodes.

[Shane]

Episode one is out.

[Amanda]

We haven't seen episode two, which is the finale.

[George]

We've seen what happens to one of our characters. And that was certainly not luck. It was certainly because of one of the craziest and funniest decisions of a poll in the world where somebody went down to here and took one of the bottom. I think it was Chance where he took one of the bottom but not the center one out. Nope. And it was like one of the sides took one of the side bottom ones out and it was elves on the towers just like the whole time.

[Shane]

That's a chance move, right?

[George]

It was very fun. I looked at it and I was like, yes. You know, that's so fun. You're so great.

[Shane]

Was it. Was it in Zombies? I'm trying to think if I actually. I tried to do that. I tried to do that where I tried to take a middle one. You did.

[George]

You did.

[Shane]

And I thought that I could like split the tower and it could perfectly land.

[Amanda]

That was never gonna work.

[Shane]

It was the most chosen thing that I thought I could pull off.

[Amanda]

Was never gonna work out.

[Shane]

Oh, yeah.

[George]

It super didn't work. But it was very. I would love to see you try it one more time.

[Shane]

I. Oh, absolutely. I think I tried later and I. Semi successful hit and then hit.

[Amanda]

I hope that after. After this last episode of Smosh vs Aliens, I'm hoping last episode is crazy. It's insane.

[George]

It's one of the most pop off games of Dread I have ever played.

[Shane]

Insane.

[Amanda]

It would be.

[Shane]

I'm excited to see it.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Shane]

I haven't watched any of it because as of recording this, they're not out yet. Yeah, exactly. I don't know what's in store. I'm very excited to watch it though, because dread was so fun. And if you haven't watched it, it's one of my favorite things that we've done. But I'm so excited to get to watch one without having seen it or been there, you know? It's so exciting.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[George]

It's a fun one, right?

[Amanda]

It's a fun one because I love the theme. Everyone knows a sleepover, and all of us really know sleepovers. And we all had our own different characters, but we knew each other. And Angela is the cousin from, like. Her name's Tampa, but she's not from Tampa, and she has bad sleep apnea, and she's got a sleep ap.

[Shane]

Machine.

[Amanda]

And it just. What I love so much about Dread is the ridiculous comedy that everybody knows.

[Shane]

You know, what sets us apart. I feel like, from so. Because I feel like so many people when they play D and D, it's their opportunity to be, like, hot. The most hot character they never get to be. And meanwhile, us here at Smosh, it's like, all right, well, not Chance. Chance.

[Amanda]

Not Chance.

[Shane]

Chance is like, I'm hot.

[Amanda]

I'm hot. He was a hot middle.

[Shane]

The rest of us are like, oh, I'm this stupid little kid with asseep machine, and. And I look gross and my hair's greasy.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Shane]

He made himself. What's going on?

[George]

Why are we doing this?

[Amanda]

He made himself really cool. He was like a really cool basketball soccer player.

[George]

Yes. Honestly, Chance became the drama of the.

[Amanda]

Episode where Chance was the drama. Yep.

[George]

It was like his family or like, Chance was playing, like, a little. A middle school girl whose, like, brothers weren't really paying attention to her father. Was more interested in the boys and the.

[Amanda]

It was a real story.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Wow.

[George]

It was kind of a little bit real. Wow. And me thinking, like, that's setting up Chance to probably be maybe the protagonist of this. And then, as we've seen.

[Shane]

Nope.

[George]

Nope, Nope.

[Amanda]

Not at all.

[George]

Maybe not.

[Amanda]

I am not sure who really was the protagonist.

[Shane]

Nope.

[George]

Well, it feels. I can't say anymore, but the ending of this certainly sets up something sinister.

[Amanda]

Yeah, the ending.

[George]

There's some stuff set up based on the outcome that you'll love it.

[Amanda]

I'm really excited. I'm really excited of the gifts that George gave me as a character too. Like, I got to see some stuff before I got to the friend's house.

[George]

Like, oh, yeah.

[Amanda]

You just kept giving us gifts.

[George]

And also, that's what Dming again in improv. Like, what gifts like to set somebody up for something. It's all it. Dming is. It's just support moves and gifts. Yeah.

[Amanda]

And also a lot of other things that are really complicated, like thinking about everything all at once and creating a story and when we mess it up, creating another story.

[George]

Thanks, guys. Sort of. But again, I'm gonna shower George with.

[Amanda]

Compliments and watch him squirm a little bit.

[George]

You have no Idea how torturous it is.

[Amanda]

I know.

[George]

Really, like one of the things I always talk about when I'm talking about like anybody saying like, oh, that was so fun. It really is half or 75%. However, you know, there's five of us around the table, so it was 80% of us. It's 80% you guys and it's 20% me. And just because I am the wall off which things rebound, doesn't mean that I'm like working harder than you guys at the table. You know what I mean? And that's the truth for all of those dimension 20 critical role, all of those other amazing shows.

[Amanda]

Yeah, but. But it's you. It's. It's you. It's like getting a good. Sorry.

[Shane]

I am so addicted.

[Amanda]

I'm playing too much. This feels like a fidget spinner too.

[George]

They're good fidgets.

[Shane]

Like, I also feel like kind of squish them.

[Amanda]

Yeah, you can squish them a little.

[George]

Bit and they come back.

[Amanda]

It's like having also a good audience too. It's. Yes, you say that we're doing a lot of the work, but you're setting up this whole environment for us to play. And we don't feel like if we do something wrong, it's gonna be bad. We also feel like, oh, the possibilities are endless. And if we say something weird, you're gonna be like, okay, well, yeah, we'll go with that.

[George]

Love a weird sentence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best stuff comes from like the off the top improv where it's like that makes no sense, but it's the funniest thing in this context to say. Now we're gonna roll with that.

[Shane]

Yeah. My dream for the next or one of the next dreads is to do a chosen multiverse where it's chosens.

[Amanda]

Oh, that would be so fun.

[George]

Oh yeah, please.

[Shane]

I have different thoughts on it, but I'm like, it could be anything. It could just be anything. Yeah, whatever.

[George]

You could be hunting crocodiles in the sewer, man. It could be whatever you want.

[Shane]

Sick. Pretty sick.

[Amanda]

Speaking of sewer, can we do an IT1? Is that crazy?

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah, whatever you want.

[George]

You can do it every.

[Shane]

I don't think there's any rules.

[Amanda]

I like, like, I like the horror.

[Shane]

Aspect, but there's something I've also. And I know that Alex and Spencer joke about this a lot. There's something so funny about with Dread specifically is that when the tower falls, you die.

[George]

Yeah.

[Shane]

That's the premise of it, which is why it's really funny. Just be like, okay, in this game, you guys are just going to the mall. Yes. And it's just like, oh. But if the tower falls, you die.

[George]

You do die.

[Shane]

And it's just, oh, this is what I thought. I thought this the other day. For Chosens, if it's a Chosen Multiverse episode. Right. And the setup of it. The setup of it at the beginning is they were supposed to go somewhere or something, and then a crazy explosion or something happens. They're like, oh, my God, we were supposed to die. Which means we've been Final Destination. So nothing is actually coming for them or anything. Just they're going about their days normally, but they know that they might die. So it's literally a Final destination camp.

[George]

The water on the bathroom floor of. I forget which Final Destination gave me nightmares. I remember puddles on my bathroom floor.

[Shane]

Dude, those movies are so stupid, but they are so good.

[Amanda]

And I haven't rewatched them.

[Shane]

The premise of it is just like, yeah, you're gonna die, dude, at any moment. Yeah.

[Amanda]

But anyway.

[Shane]

And you're gonna die silly death.

[George]

You're gonna almost die nine times. And then the thing that you thought was definitely originally gonna kill them.

[Shane]

Definitely kills them.

[George]

Oh, my God.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[George]

It's like a pigeon.

[Shane]

No, not the pigeon. The setup of those movies is so stupid. Cause you're just like, oh, okay, so nobody got an aneurysm. Like, you're just. Oh, no, it's that. It's that the. The whatever. Like, the fan nearby caught a wire, and it's spinning and all this and.

[George]

That got wrapped around somebody's neck.

[Shane]

It's literally always a Rube Goldberg machine. It is a Rube Goldberg death machine. And then occasionally just a person gets hit by a bus.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Like, it's like that happens in, I think, two. Always a girl's like, guys, this is.

[George]

It's a full bus hit.

[Amanda]

You think that's going to happen in every movie when someone's in the street going, like, see you later. You're like, here comes the bus. Here comes the bus.

[George]

In my head, that was the. Whenever Spencer was pulling for saying misogynistic stuff and zombies. Like, that's what I was waiting for was him to miss it and it to be like a. Huh. Like, ew, your period. Some crazy thing to hit him.

[Shane]

I was.

[George]

I was. Oh, I was praying he was gonna knock the tower over on that. But it was still. It was still very fun.

[Shane]

Oh, God.

[George]

And you change it.

[Amanda]

You didn't plan that ending really at all for zombies. Yeah.

[George]

I had, like, Five or six different ways that could go at the end that I kept super loose on purpose. I think fruit factory was definitely one of them. But what the fruit factory became was nothing compared to after you guys started, like, putting details in about it and, like, about your dad. And, like, we figured out, I feel like that relationship between you and your dad we figured out really fast on the phone.

[Shane]

Yep.

[George]

And all of a sudden, I was like, I know that this is going to be. This is gonna be overtly evil facility that she's kind of been clueless about her whole life.

[Amanda]

Once you have Tiffany's necklace with his full name in cursive, you know?

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Evil, Robert Evil. Oh, man. Well, I'm very excited for these episodes of Smosh vs Aliens and so much more. I mean, I think we will come back around to D and D. You know, we're figuring out out what we want to do here at Smosh. The sky's the limit. But we have so much fun doing stuff like this, and we love. Great at it. Love having you around. So any excuse to bring you back.

[Amanda]

And you gave us gifts.

[George]

You gave us gifts.

[Amanda]

Like, this is our first gift that someone gave us at Smoshmouth, I think. Is it as a guest?

[George]

Put a plaque right there.

[Amanda]

George, your name's gonna be here. What did you get, honey?

[Shane]

I got a 12 on that one. We're above average.

[Amanda]

You're pretty good. I got a 30.

[Shane]

Oh, see, you're rolling. You're rolling rough there.

[Amanda]

Sick.

[Shane]

So our luck has changed.

[George]

I'm not gonna be mad if you guys trade. Do whatever you want. Oh, now match him. Nope.

[Amanda]

He's not taking my dice.

[Shane]

Anyways, George, thank you so much.

[George]

Thank you guys for having me. It's a blast.

[Shane]

And thank you for watching Check out George in all those places. Hero club, Everything that you do. I mean, so much wonderful stuff. I feel like you're everywhere. And. And definitely go watch Smosh vs Aliens, please. Smosh games.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[Shane]

Check it out. And watch Smosh vs. Zombies.

[George]

It's that as well.

[Shane]

Three episodes of that. Two episodes of Smosh vs Aliens.

[Amanda]

Yep.

[Shane]

Easy.

[George]

A day of fun.

[Shane]

A day of fun.

[Amanda]

A day of fun.

[Shane]

All right, we'll see you later. Bye.