S1: #14 - Why We Broke Up w/ Ian & His Ex-Girlfriend Pamela Horton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Smosh Mouth | S1: #14 - Why We Broke Up w/ Ian & His Ex-Girlfriend Pamela Horton

Release Date: May 22, 2019

In episode #14 of Smosh Mouth, hosts Mari Takahashi join Ian Hecox and his ex-girlfriend, Pamela Horton, to delve deep into their past relationship. The trio candidly explores the intricacies of their breakup, the challenges they faced, and the lessons they've learned along the way. This heartfelt conversation offers listeners an unfiltered look into the complexities of modern relationships, especially under the public eye.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode begins with Mari Takahashi setting the stage for a profound discussion about Ian and Pamela's relationship. Unlike typical episodes, this one focuses on personal experiences, aiming to shed light on the behind-the-scenes dynamics of a high-profile breakup.

2. How Ian and Pamela Met

At [05:43], Ian recounts the origins of their relationship:

Ian Hecox [05:49]: "Anthony had mentioned the Playboy party during our pitch meeting, and I was intrigued. Pamela had already been working with Playboy and Gamer, setting the perfect stage for our collaboration."

Pamela adds context to their meeting:

Pamela Horton [06:05]: "I was working at Playboy and Gamer, hosting events like Mansion Game Night. When Ian expressed interest in attending a Playboy party, it sparked the beginning of our connection."

The initial meeting at the Playboy party during Comic Con served as the catalyst for their budding relationship.

3. Development of Their Relationship

As their connection deepened, communication emerged as both a strength and a challenge. Early on, both partners emphasized the importance of being upfront and establishing ground rules:

Pamela Horton [15:14]: "One of the best things about my relationship with Ian was that we were very upfront with each other from the beginning. We had important talks about religion, desires for children, and how to handle our public personas."

Their mutual respect laid a strong foundation, allowing them to navigate the public and private aspects of their lives together.

4. Communication Challenges

Despite their efforts, communication proved to be a significant hurdle in their relationship. At [18:29], Ian admits:

Ian Hecox [18:46]: "I've always struggled with being open about my feelings. It's one of my biggest failings in our relationship."

Pamela echoes these sentiments, highlighting how their differing communication styles led to misunderstandings:

Pamela Horton [19:58]: "When I tried to talk about our issues, Ian was often closed off. This lack of effective communication built up over time, creating agitation and frustration."

They discuss the broader context of societal expectations and the impact of online culture on relationships:

Mari Takahashi [03:22]: "With online culture, we're able to see so much more of each other's lives, making it challenging to navigate what to share publicly and what to keep private."

5. Pamela's Health Struggles

A pivotal moment in their relationship was Pamela's battle with cancer. She shares her journey candidly, detailing her diagnosis and the subsequent surgeries:

Pamela Horton [35:18]: "I was diagnosed with multiple forms of cancer, including uterine and cervical cancer, due to Lynch Syndrome. This led to a series of surgeries, including a hysterectomy and salpingectomy."

Ian reflects on how Pamela's health impacted their relationship:

Ian Hecox [43:11]: "Seeing Pam go through such intense health challenges was incredibly tough. I wanted to be there, but work commitments often took precedence, leading to feelings of inadequacy and missed support."

Pamela adds depth to this narrative:

Pamela Horton [42:37]: "During my hospital stays, I felt that Ian wasn't as emotionally supportive as I needed. This was compounded by my past experiences with emotional abuse, making effective communication even more crucial."

6. Breakup and Aftermath

The culmination of these challenges led to their breakup. They discuss the emotional toll and the process of ending the relationship:

Ian Hecox [65:25]: "Breaking up in the hospital was the final straw. We realized that despite our respect and understanding, our needs weren't aligning."

Despite the breakup, both express a desire to maintain a respectful friendship:

Pamela Horton [67:21]: "We have a profound amount of respect for each other, allowing us to remain good friends post-breakup."

They acknowledge the difficulty of moving on and the lingering emotions:

Mari Takahashi [70:25]: "It's human to feel hurt when a significant relationship ends, even if both parties understand the reasons behind it."

7. Lessons Learned and Reflections

Throughout the episode, Ian and Pamela share valuable insights from their experience:

• Importance of Communication: Effective communication is paramount, especially during challenging times.

  Pamela Horton [19:58]: "We never truly figured out a way to communicate effectively, which strained our relationship."

• Personal Growth: Both acknowledge the personal growth that resulted from their relationship and its challenges.

  Ian Hecox [74:29]: "I learned a lot from my relationship with Pam and strive to apply those lessons in future relationships."

• Respect and Independence: Maintaining mutual respect and allowing for personal independence can strengthen a relationship but also poses challenges when needs diverge.

  Pamela Horton [77:06]: "One thing I miss is the incredible independence Ian gave me. It allowed me to maintain my own space while still being in a relationship."

8. Conclusion

Smosh Mouth episode #14 offers a raw and honest exploration of Ian Hecox and Pamela Horton's relationship. By addressing themes of communication, personal struggles, and mutual respect, the episode provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of what it takes to maintain a relationship amidst external pressures and personal challenges. Their story serves as a testament to the complexities of love and the importance of self-awareness and effective communication in fostering healthy relationships.

Notable Quotes:

• Mari Takahashi [03:06]: "It's weird because I think, you know, all of us... the people who are going through those relationships are like, how do I navigate this?"

• Pamela Horton [15:37]: "We had a set of ground rules... like, don't post any pictures of Ian on my social media."

• Ian Hecox [20:18]: "I never quite worked out how to communicate effectively. That's where I failed the most."

• Pamela Horton [19:58]: "I was doing my best to communicate, but it felt like Ian wasn't receptive."

• Mari Takahashi [62:23]: "Nothing is black and white... it's all shades of gray."

This episode not only chronicles the personal journey of Ian and Pamela but also offers universal lessons applicable to all listeners navigating the tumultuous waters of relationships.

Transcript

[Ryan Higa]

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[Pamela Horton]

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[Mari Takahashi]

Ramble.

[Ian Hecox]

It is very weird that you could share everything with somebody. You break up and then you have to become mortal enemies with them.

[Mari Takahashi]

Communication is difficult. We learn our entire lives. It's like working on a muscle and it sucks.

[Pamela Horton]

You can be happy in a relationship, but not be happy all the time. You can be angry at somebody but still love them and feel super happy with them.

[Mari Takahashi]

You guys were speaking your own languages as opposed to speaking each other's languages.

[Ian Hecox]

That's very astute, Mari.

[Mari Takahashi]

Damn, we're getting deep in here, you guys. Are you ready pulling this monitor? Oh, I like being able to see it.

[Ian Hecox]

No, you can't. Look at yourself, Mari.

[Mari Takahashi]

What? I would just look at myself the whole time.

[Ian Hecox]

Hoo, baby. Welcome to smoshcast. This is a very special episode because today I am joined by Mari talking, as you all know, and Pamela Horton, who some of you may know as my ex girlfriend, that me. This was spurred on by me thinking it'd be a great idea to have Pam on for our two Truths and One lie episode. And then, Pam, you got a text from Mari.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, I told her about the idea of coming on for two truths and a lie. And I was like, I don't want the summary of our relationship to be a joke on the Internet. So she was like, well, I think, you know, if you want that, you should talk to him about it. And so I think the podcast would be a good idea. And I was like, that is a good idea.

[Mari Takahashi]

He said, negotiate hard.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, I saw the text come in when we were in the pitch meeting. I think I already explained this in the last podcast, but we're in the pitch meeting and I saw the text come up and I was just like, oh, no. And everyone was like, what? What? And I was like, pam thinks it'd be a good idea for her to be on the podcast. And everyone was like, yes. And I knew. I knew that it was also a good idea. It's just. Whoo. Baby. But here we are.

[Mari Takahashi]

It's all about communication.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

Talking about things.

[Pamela Horton]

We also want to bring to light just how we want to normalize what we went through, you know?

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. And I think, you know, people need to see how different, you know, relationships can be, how different relationships can and, you know. Cause we only see on the Internet, you know, the best parts of relationships. And then suddenly there's the breakup video.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And it's like, wait, how did we get from, like, perfect couple goals to suddenly, like, people being. It's always kind of that thing where it's like, we're still friends, you know, and like, you know, we still love each other, but we don't. It's like. Wait, what?

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Huh?

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah. It's weird because I think, you know, like, all of us, and I think a lot of people look at, like, TV and Hollywood movies and grow up with those being, like, a measurement of what relationships should be like.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

But now with online culture, we're able to see so much more. And then the people who are going through those relationships are like, well, how do I navigate this? What do you make public? What do you keep private to yourselves? And then when. When you do break up, like, how do you tell an audience that that has followed that journey for so long?

[Pamela Horton]

Well, and also too, comments like, when people are like, oh, you know, like, I think I want to marry him or whatever. They're like, you guys have only been together for a year. It's like, I'm sorry, is there some sort of outline I'm supposed to stay within in like a relationship or, you know, like, people will talk about their relationship and then receive that level of, I don't want to say judgment, but people think they know how relationships are.

[Ian Hecox]

Supposed to be and nobody does.

[Pamela Horton]

Nobody does.

[Ian Hecox]

I mean, we have a friend. Her parents were in an arranged marriage and they're still together. So like, you know, it's different for everybody.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And I think, you know, the. The best. The best thing to get out there. And I think that, you know, one of my goals with this podcast is just like, putting out the idea that nothing is black and white. Like, it's. It's all shades of gray.

[Pamela Horton]

Mm. Fifty shades.

[Ian Hecox]

I was like, don't say it, don't say it. So do you have anything more to say about that before I dive into this beast?

[Mari Takahashi]

No, I think we'll be able to hit a lot of different topics on it today, and I think we'll get a bite size, sort of look into your guys relationship in this modern World.

[Ian Hecox]

Okay. I think before we. I mean, we can't even talk about the sort of breakup without talking about how we got started, I suppose. And. And, you know, because in all those YouTube videos, it's always just about the breakup. And. And you don't get any sort of color to, like, you know, what happened, you know, how you even got to that point.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, I feel also, too, a lot of YouTube couples are very upfront with, like, how we. Oh, this is how we met, and this is what we do when we get home. And this, you know, they line it all up.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

So I think we'll start from the very beginning. How did you guys meet?

[Ian Hecox]

Well, I guess from the very, very beginning, Pam DMed Anthony wanted to do.

[Mari Takahashi]

And what year was this?

[Ian Hecox]

This was 2006. 15.

[Pamela Horton]

I was like, 2006 or 15.

[Ian Hecox]

16 or 15.

[Pamela Horton]

15 in 2015. Yeah. That's that. The only reason I slid into Anthony's DMs and not yours is because had been following me already. And at the time, I was working at Playboy and Gamer next door, and we had this show called Mansion Game Night, and we wanted to get people in so that we could collaborate. And immediately we were like, oh, yeah, it'd be great to get Smosh. And since Anthony followed me, I was like, you know what? Let's just break the ice with, hey, do you want to come to a Playboy party? Which was a thing that a lot of people wanted to do.

[Ian Hecox]

It's always a good in.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah. So Anthony was like, oh, yeah. You know, I think I got something going on that night. And I didn't hear anything from him. And then I think they had a conversation. And then Ian came in and wanted. Definitely wanted to go to the party. So he started following me and slid into my DMs.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. Yeah. So Anthony had mentioned it when we were shooting, and he's like, yeah, the thing of the Playboy partner was like, playboy party. And I mean, just like, it's just one of those bucket list things, you know, like, just to say you did it. So I was like, oh, that sounds cool. I want to. Sure. And it was. It was at Comic Con, and we were already going to Comic Con for, like, a Assassin's Creed thing. So I was like, yeah, why not while I'm there, go to this party. So.

[Mari Takahashi]

And did you go by yourself? Because we were all there, but I know that we didn't get to go.

[Ian Hecox]

I took. I took Ryan Todd, our director. I felt like, you know, Ryan had done so much work for us. He Deserved a little treat. So I got. You know, I got a plus one. So I took. I took my boy Ryan. Yeah, So I slid into your DMs. I was like, hey, I'll go. So we went there. You were very lovely and was. You are very. A very lovely person. The party was terrible.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, it really was.

[Ian Hecox]

Because normally. Because you said normally, like, Playboy throws like this very, like, elaborate party, and this time they just, like, they just rented out a club. It was all douchebags. Yeah.

[Pamela Horton]

See, I think the issue that we were running with was the fact that no sponsors wanted to pay the amount that it cost to throw a Playboy party. So we just did what we did. So I tried to do my very best to make sure that he had a good time. He was cramped in this small area. And then I pulled my bunny suit power, and I've never done this before. I walked up to vip, and they were like, you can't come back here. And I was like, they're with me. And then I brought them into VIP even though they weren't VIP because it was like an open space. You could sit down. It was nice. And then he. From that point on, all he had was the ability to talk to me because I had to make sure I was with him in the VIP section, otherwise he would have been kicked out.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. So we talked for a while. It was very loud. And then we left. And then I think I threw my number at you in the DMs. I was like, hey, these DMs are really annoying to talk, so we should just, like, you know, exchange numbers.

[Mari Takahashi]

That's a move. Even though DMS are pretty much the same thing as text, it's like. It's so much easier when you just text me.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so did that. And then, like, hey, well, you know, when we're back in L. A, like, let's. Let's hang out or whatever. And then we went on. What? I. What? I. Outwardly, I didn't think I was. I was taking you out on a date. But I think, like, in my deep, deep subconscious, it totally was. But I ended up. It ended up being the most cliche date ever, because we went to dinner, and then we got a drink, and then we saw a movie. So it's like the ultimate, like, the ultimate, like, cliche date. But then we finished it off with Mario Kart because you were talking up your Mario Kart game. And who won? I won.

[Pamela Horton]

Ian did. Wow.

[Mari Takahashi]

But rematch.

[Ian Hecox]

But Pam claims that she was sandbagging.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, also too we have a history of evidence where I have sandbagged.

[Ian Hecox]

This is true. This is true. She. She's a sandbagger when it comes to pool, billiards. Because she. She was. I could tell she was, like, playing along, like, oops. Ha ha ha. And then, like. And then she would just clean up.

[Mari Takahashi]

Just a ringer.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. But I still like to think that. That I beat you fair and square in Mario Kart.

[Pamela Horton]

I'll give that to you. You have that?

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

So you guys meet. At what point does that move into this is getting serious territory? Did you guys know when it was getting serious? And what was that?

[Pamela Horton]

Like, I was of the mindset that, you know, like, this is a work thing. I really want to work together. And he sort of made it clear that it was like Ian and Anthony were never gonna be on Mansion game night. But at the same time, I had so many things in my head. So although Ian was like, we should do this. We should date for a good amount of time, I was like, I. You know, I'm not ready. I had just gotten out of an emotionally abusive relationship. I was really worried that, you know, the reactions and the way that I would treat him were a conditioned response and not really me. So I was very, very upfront with the fact that I was like, I'm not comfortable. You know? Like, I just. I'm not ready yet. And he was a patient boy.

[Ian Hecox]

That's one way to say it. Another way to say it is persistent.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

But understanding, like. And I think, you know, so we hung out a few more times, and I think the kind of the point where you were asking, like, when. When did we sort of know that it was something more for me, it was, you know, when. When you opened up to me about sort of, like, your whole, like, crazy history, like, you know, you did not have the. The best environment for a healthy upbringing. I guess I should say that's a.

[Pamela Horton]

Good way to put it.

[Ian Hecox]

And I knew a lot. I. I sort of dated somebody before you that went through just way less than that, but wore it on their sleeve, and that was their identity of, like, this happened to me, and this is who I am because of it. And you were who you are in spite of your sort of environment. And that, to me, was. Was the thing that really stood out because it just showed, like, how strong of a character you had. And for me, that was really cool.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, for me, I had. You know, usually I set my walls pretty hard, and I'm like, I'm not gonna do the thing, and Also, too, I had this, like, apprehension about dating someone famous. You know, like, I don't want to be the girlfriend. I mean, although I loved being the girlfriend, I didn't want to be known as the girlfriend. Like, here's Ian and his girlfriend. Here's. You know, like, I wanted to be. I had my own drive. I wanted to be known for more. But at the same time, like, I felt there was something real, because normally the way that I process things is I deal with something and then I go to what I call my Pam cave. I don't want to be mean to anybody. You know, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings by saying something I don't mean because I'm angry or I'm sad. So I go to my Pam cave, I heal, I get some perspective, and then I come back and I try to be a healthy adult. And Ian was the first person in my entire life that ever made me feel comfortable talking about what it was that bothered me or what, you know, the hard stuff. And he listened. He gave, you know, neutral advice, and it really, you know, it hooked me. I. I fell. I fell.

[Mari Takahashi]

I feel like, you know, I mean, obviously, Ian, you're a public figure. You are also a public figure within, like, your industries. And did you guys have a discussion of, like, what are we gonna make public? What are we gonna keep private?

[Ian Hecox]

My initial response was to keep basically everything private, because that's how my last relationship was. I didn't really post anything about our relationship, and maybe that's just because, like, I wasn't. I wasn't always, like, so sure of everything. For. For Pam and I, like, one of the first things was, well, I guess. I guess we probably can't collaborate because we didn't. That was. That was one of your. One of your big things, Pam was. Was. I don't want to be seen as this person that's using. Like, you didn't want to be, like, a climber.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

You didn't want to look like a climber.

[Pamela Horton]

So even in opportunities where I could have. Or I could have pushed more for it, and I didn't because I didn't want people to be like, oh, well, she started dating him, and now she's getting stuff, like, typical or whatever.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. And, I mean, you're super talented in your space with gaming and everything. So I was pretty confident that, you know, you doing everything on your own, you would eventually reach a place that would be, you know, beyond whatever I was doing.

[Pamela Horton]

One of the best things about my relationship with Ian was the fact that we've always been very upfront with each other. Like, you know, at the beginning of our relationship, we had already had the religion talk, the baby talk, the, like, every important talk that couples need to have. We had it at the very beginning. And we also, you know, we had this, like, a set of ground rules of sorts. Like, you know, at the beginning, it was like, don't post any pictures of Ian on my social media, which I totally get, and stuff along those lines. And because we had public Personas that we were very particular about how we were perceived. So we had a great amount of respect for each other, and we still have a great amount of respect for each other. And that's something that I look back on, and I'm like, that was super grown up.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah, because you're adulting.

[Ian Hecox]

And honestly, some of those rules changed or relaxed. It came to a point where. Because I think at the beginning of the relationship, obviously, you don't know where it's going to go. You don't completely know the person. So, you know, before you, I did a small amount of man hoeing. Like, not a lot, but like, a small, small amount.

[Mari Takahashi]

TMR Rite OF passage.

[Ian Hecox]

So, you know, if I had seen these other sort of, like, small dating things not work out, like, I wouldn't want to post about it online and then have, like, everyone know about this person, then everybody come after this person because our relationship didn't work out. So at the beginning, I was very guarded. And then, you know, as. As the months went on, I was like, no, this is like, this is a real, real thing. Then it was like, okay, I'm gonna make an announcement. Then this is gonna be sort of just a normal thing for people to know about. So I had, like, made that post where I was like, this is my girlfriend, Pam. I love her more than anyone else, and we're together. And if any of y'all have a problem with that, too bad.

[Mari Takahashi]

It's so interesting because, you know, without the public Personas, you do that within your own friend and family group, where it's like, when is it the right time to introduce so and so to the rest of your, you know, people in your life? But having a public Persona, it's like, okay, I'm doing this with hundreds of people or thousands of people or however large your audience is. And so it's kind of like you're almost putting on this, like, responsibility on everyone else. So it's a weird thing to have to navigate these days. But I think you guys Did a really a good way by communicating in the beginning. Communicating is hard, especially difficult situations. I feel like I'm still working on it after being with the same person for nine years, and he still has to pull things out. And he's like, I know you're upset. What are you pissed about? And I'm like, nothing. And then five minutes later, I'm like, okay, it's this, but it's really difficult. How do you set yourself up to have difficult communication with each other? How do you sit each other down? How do you rev yourself up to do it? How do you guys navigate that?

[Ian Hecox]

I know you have one side to this, and I think, actually, Mar, you and I are probably on very similar pages when it comes to, like, being open about, you know, what we're feeling. I guess we both have toxic masculinity, you and I.

[Mari Takahashi]

So masculine.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. So that was. That was always an issue with me. And I'd say that was. That was one thing that I never. I never quite worked out in our relationship. And that was actually one of the big. That was one of the big, big. You know, I'd say that was the ultimate hitch in our. In our relationship. Would you agree?

[Pamela Horton]

It's up there. It's up there because it was one of the first issues that we had started having because I had gone from, like I said, being able to talk to somebody about my problems. Then when the issues started arising in our relationship, when I tried to talk to him about them, instead of being open and receptive, he was very closed off and just not necessarily unwilling to talk, but just didn't know what to say. And so he always felt put on the spot. And, you know, that led to a little bit of agitation. And I. Because of my emotionally abusive relationship, when anger starts rising, I start, like, minimizing, you know, Like, I. So that made for a not very good level of communication, and it just built from there because we were never able to truly, like, you know, figure out a true way to communicate with each other.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah, I think there's some sort of saying where it's like, without communication, two people in a relationship see the relationship completely differently. Like, you. You're like. You're reading two different books. Ian, was there any point where you felt like you were getting better at communicating? And why did that happen? How did you. How did you get there?

[Ian Hecox]

No, I don't.

[Mari Takahashi]

That's an honest answer.

[Ian Hecox]

I don't think I did get better. I just want to take a quick break from all this heavy, heavy stuff to announce that we got a sponsor today. Yeah, baby. It's ZipRecruiter. Hiring is challenging. Being boss Smosh. Now I understand that. But there is one place you can go where hiring is simple, fast and smart. A place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place, my friends, is ZipRecruiter.com Smosh ZipRecruiter sends your job to over a hundred of the web's leading job boards. But they don't stop there, baby. With their powerful matching technology, ZipRecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job. As applications come in, ZipRecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidates so you never miss a great match. And ZipRecruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through their site within the first day. That's insane.

[Pamela Horton]

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[Ian Hecox]

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[Ryan Higa]

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[Ian Hecox]

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[Pamela Horton]

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[Ian Hecox]

That's where I see my, my biggest failing in the relationship was I, I didn't get better and I didn't put in the work to, to get better. You know, I would, I think I would go through, I would go through like spurts of, of trying. There's peaks and valleys of, of my attention to our relationship because I, a lot of times I put work first. I would put, you know, smosh first and you know, making sure that everything was, was going smoothly over there, especially with all the defy fuckery. So it was, there was a lot going on outside of the relationship, and I let that affect the thing between Pam and I.

[Mari Takahashi]

It's a really easy way to not deal with things. And I think you and I are really similar. We don't like confrontation. And for me personally, the reason why I don't communicate a lot of the times is like, I get into a thing where I'm like, no, I can do it myself. I'm independent. I can figure it out. And I think that's. That's the reason why it builds up for me when from the outside, he knows me so well that he understands that there's something going on, but he still has got to pull it out of me.

[Ian Hecox]

And did that. Did that come like. Did your sort of like closed offness come from your. Because you were in a long term relationship before that? Was it eight years?

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

So did that come from that or was it more of just like family? Like, we don't talk about, like, how we're feeling, that kind of stuff?

[Mari Takahashi]

I do think. I mean, I think it's both. Right. I think all of our experiences add up to, like, who we are. I think as a family, we're very Japanese. We don't talk about things that essentially don't matter for everyone, even though they really do. Communication is very stunted, especially about emotions and things like that. I think with my last relationship, it was. It got to a place where it needed to end so much earlier. But everything that we talked about was almost a burden. You know, a simple conversation turned into days of talking about it sitting down, like, we gotta talk. And so I think that it was. Some of it was just like being tired from having to have to have these talks because your energy level changes when you have to have these talks. And so it's like you have to put a hold on everything, including work and the things that you can run away to, like TV and entertainment, distractions. Yeah. And you just gotta put yourself down, hunker down, and just do it.

[Ian Hecox]

But those talks weren't productive. So what's the difference between the talks you were having and, like, the talk that you should have been having?

[Pamela Horton]

I feel like. I mean, I obviously don't know the situation, but I feel like it's like actions speak louder than words, saying you're gonna do something without actually opening up your mind and doing the thing. I think that you say, I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try harder, and I'm gonna do this, and I want to do this, and then not following through with your word.

[Mari Takahashi]

Mm. Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes you Say, like, I'm gonna do blah, blah, blah to make things better because it's. It ends the conversation. It makes it easier.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

But I think, you know, I think it's also seeing what you can and can't do in a relationship and understanding that. And it only comes from experience of being like. You know, I remember in my last relationship, I would cry on the phone as a way to communicate that there was something wrong without me saying those things. And it was just a reaction. And, like, we go so deep with it, but it goes back to, like, childhood. Right. Like, how do I get a reaction out of somebody? What do I know in my life? And. And, you know, sometimes it's yelling at the person, sometimes it's crying, sometimes it's, you know, doing something really, like, drastic to hurt them emotionally or physically. So it goes back to, like, what, you know, as a kid. But to answer your question, I think it's asking. Having my partner ask the right questions is what it came down to for me to be able to communicate better. Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

So Pete just knows the right. The right angle, the right road to go down.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah. And that road is just asking really hard questions. And he doesn't pull any punches when. When he knows that we need to talk about things. Communication is difficult, I think. I think we. It's something that we learn our entire lives. It's like working on a muscle. And it sucks because I guess.

[Ian Hecox]

I guess with. With ump. It's like, well, you know, this is going to be. This is going to hurt maybe for a short while, but the lasting effects are going to be much better.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah. That's the positive of it. I think a lot of people don't do it because it's like, well, what if this is the catalyst that makes a relationship end?

[Pamela Horton]

If a relationship was going to end because of a conversation, it shouldn't be happening in the first place. Just like a conversation where you're establishing who you are, what. What you know you need, and a lack of willingness to compromise. You know, like, if. If you approach someone about that and they're just like. It's like, okay, you know, I did. I did my best, you know.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah, absolutely. Were there any examples of real successful attempts of communication and also failed attempts that you can think of?

[Ian Hecox]

In most cases, I'm a good listener. I am very open to hearing about the other person, but it's hard for me to do the opposite. It's hard for me to sort of spill my guts.

[Mari Takahashi]

Where does that come from, do you think?

[Ian Hecox]

I don't know, we're getting real deep now. I mean, it's probably very similar. You know, both of my parents are Japanese. I think, you know, some of it comes from my upbringing. I don't think we really talked about, you know, our emotions that much. And then the, the long term relationship that I was in, a lot of those conversations could be. Could become a little offensive and I would have to go on the defense. You know, obviously I, I think she's, she's wonderful and we, we're still friends, but I think I sort of built up this sort of defense mechanism of just like shutting down and being like, okay, I'll just, I'll just ride out this storm and then tomorrow we'll be. Or not Even tomorrow, like 30 minutes later, things will be okay. I think for me, you know, I sort of carried those scars of my past into this relationship. And I think, you know, what I'm finding out now and, you know, even sitting here is it's just kind of like, you know, you can't carry, you know, it's good to carry some things from the relationship, some things that you learn, but you can't carry all the baggage from, from your relationship into the next person because that person isn't the same exact person as the person you're seeing now. What they. Well, some people do end up dating the same kind of people, but that's, that's a totally different kind of, you know, thing.

[Mari Takahashi]

But weird. Like, we get triggered, right? Like, if something is similar to something you've felt beforehand, you're like, okay, I know what to do in this, in this situation. I'm gonna armor up. I'm gonna. I know what my pitch is. I know what I'm gonna, you know, like.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, every, I mean, every person, every individual person is a different puzzle piece. You know, like, you have to take the time to get to know them. You have to figure out how you guys work together. You have to, you know, have a lot of introspective and, you know, if you don't enter a relationship with a completely clean slate, it's gonna be really hard to establish the connection that you two genuinely have.

[Mari Takahashi]

You know, Takes years to figure that out too. You know, it's like, how many relationships have we all been in? And we're like, just figuring this out and almost having to have to stop ourselves. Even though we know it, our emotions get ahold of us so much that it's hard to.

[Pamela Horton]

I feel like before the relationship that I had with Ian, he mentally broke me down like I didn't know who I was. I didn't know because he had conditioned me, he had manipulated me. I mean, emotional abuse in some regards is as the life or the effects are as long lasting as physical abuse because you, the person in your head isn't you. And then you have this, you know, existence problem where it's just like, I, who am I? And so I had to be broken down and then take a year and a half to build myself up again to really be like, that's me. These are my feelings. And, you know, being really aware of what I was feeling and what they were feeling and, you know, having this awareness. But it took me being broken down emotionally to nothing. So, you know, not everybody, like, I don't go into relationships expecting people to have that because I don't want people to have experienced that. But, you know, I can't go into a relationship expecting that people know what they need to do or how they can communicate or, you know, whatever. So I, you know, I used, I tried to be patient. I tried to use different ways to communicate with Ian. I tried to, you know, wait until certain times. Like, I, I, I knew that, you know, there was a way that we could work this out at just figuring out how.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah, it's almost such bullshit that we have to like, like figure out when the right time is and stuff like that, you know. But it's so human too, because it's like we want the best conditions to have the talk and all these things. I want to switch gears and talk about your health over the past year. It's been a tumultuous year for you. 13 surgeries. I mean, I think, you know, we've all in some ways felt that journey along with you. And I know you're going through some stuff right now as well. I'd like for you to talk about it and then also talk about how that affected your overall relationship.

[Pamela Horton]

This would be the point where I'd probably cry, but.

[Mari Takahashi]

Oh God, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no makeup.

[Ian Hecox]

We all said like, you know, if, if it's more, I mean, we talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Mari Takahashi]

We don't have to talk about it if you don't want to.

[Pamela Horton]

It's mostly like the last, like, I want to say like, last six months. I really, like, spent the time feeling of my health and the way it affected my, my relationship with Ian. What I went through was very hard and what, what a significant other of someone who's going through what I went through. Is very hard. And it was hard on both of us. And. But to, you know, summarize, I had to get that out of the way. To summarize, like, I've always had issues with cancer. I've. I was first diagnosed when I was 18. I've been in and out of remission like. Like now at this point, I don't even know, like, six times all uterine cancer or, you know, cervical cancer. And, you know, I. At the beginning of the ratio, like, the good first half of the relationship, nothing really went wrong. Like, I was doing okay health wise. I had, like, you know, IBS because of, you know, like, stress and stuff like that, but nothing. That too. I had a few scares, but nothing that was too, you know, destructive to me and my emotional state. And then I had this, like, it was the day of the. The eclipse, the solar eclipse. And I went. I had a doctor's appointment where I was supposed to go in and, you know, just normal, well, woman's visit or whatever. And I had been having some issues. And so, you know, we did this ultrasound and they found, like, a really large mass on my. On my ovary. And like, you know, you know, getting biopsies on ovary masses is really hard. So they try to do as many tests as they can, but I just had this really bad feeling about it from that point on, like, well, even before I went to the appointment, I was telling Ian in the morning, I was like, something's wrong. Like, I. Something's gonna happen. And I just. My intuition was telling me, like, something's wrong with my body. And then I went in for that. And it turns out that that wasn't actually the issue I had because of all the issues that I've been having, all the cancer, the family history. And I also have this condition called lynch syndrome, which is.

[Ian Hecox]

You didn't find out about lynch syndrome until.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, at that point, I'd actually known, but I just didn't know exactly what it meant. The doctor who had prescribed or prescribed it, you know, diagnosed it, you know, immediately was like, hey, can we conceal. Consider hysterectomies? Because I've been on the no kids mindset for a good portion of my life, and, you know, like, I. I don't think. And then she was like, no. And, you know, like, so, you know, I went to a genetic counselor who was like, you know, your best. The best thing that you can do to guarantee that you don't get cancer is have a hysterectomy. And if you don't want to have kids, you know, like, I will. I will support that and help you find a doctor. And he did. And so I had a. At the beginning of January, I had a hysterectomy, and it was prophylactic at the time. And then they did the pathology afterwards and found what I had been fearing. You know, like, they. Fortunately, we had taken it all out, and, you know.

[Ian Hecox]

So the hysterectomy is what?

[Pamela Horton]

Oh, sorry. A hysterectomy is when they take. There's different types of hysterectomies. There's one where they take just the uterus but no cervix. There's one where they take the uterus and the cervix. There's one where they take. You know, like, I had what is called a hysterectomy and salpingectomy, where they took my uterus, or a total hysterectomy and salpingectomy, where they took my uterus, my fallopian tubes, and my cervix. And because all. All of those parts are. Are part of the, you know, the uterus. And so that's where my cancer had previously been and where my cancer risk was most. Because you're more likely to get cancer if you've had cancer. And we had a game plan for what we would do if, you know, after the hysterectomy, 10 years later, we'll take out the ovaries to reduce your ovarian risk. Because with lynch syndrome, I have ovarian risk, uterine risk, colon risk, and stomach risk, and neurological risk. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 27 different types of cancer I'm at risk for. And so we had this game plan, and the game plan was completely shot because, you know, how should I do best tldr I can do for, you know, a year of hospital stays and surgeries. So I had a hysterectomy, and then I started having abdominal pain in, like, July, and I thought it was, you know, my appendix. So Ann took me to the hospital, and they told me that I had cancer, and because I had a mass on my ovary, and so. And that was what they left it at. And then I left. I was in the most pain I've ever been in. In my entire life. I've reached my 10.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. Yep. That was not. That was not lovely to witness, and.

[Pamela Horton]

I'm sorry for that. But after. After that whole debacle, like, I was misdiagnosed at one hospital, I transferred to another hospital where my doctor was like, you just had A torst. Ovary because of a cyst. And they didn't notice that. Oh, like she was super mad.

[Ian Hecox]

So basically what that means is her ovary got twisted and it cut off blood flow. So the first hospital really goofed that one up. And because of that, your ovary. One ovary died.

[Pamela Horton]

Yep. I had an ovary that died inside of me and was starting to, you know, I developed a fever and was throwing up because it was, you know, dead inside of me and rotting. And I'm sorry if that's, that's gross.

[Ian Hecox]

But you had a zombie ovary.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, I had a zombie ovary. And then from that point on, it was. I didn't trust my stomach. I had abdominal pain that was similar. It always felt like gas. I'd always be like, haha, I'll just wait until it passes, you know. But every time I felt that pain, my ovary would twist. Like my left ovary twisted like what, six times? Five or six times. I had surgeries to repair it. And then eventually in the span of a week, I had the surgery to repair it one last time. And then what they did was they put it on the front side of my abdomen, which basically, if I banged up against the sharp corner of a table, I would just rupture my ovary. You know, like they were trying all they could, but then they were like, okay, you know what, how do you feel about menopause?

[Mari Takahashi]

So you mentioned for the first six months your health was fine.

[Ian Hecox]

It was probably for the first year.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, year and a half. First year and a half.

[Mari Takahashi]

First year and a half. So you're committed to this relationship. You're, you've been in this relationship for a year and a half, things start to happen. How does that, how did that make you feel, Ian? Like, how does that take a toll on you? Because you're not expecting this. And in so many ways, when we started a relationship, it's like, that is the last thing you think that you're signing up for.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the, one of the signs for me that I felt like, you know, this, this was like a real, a real, real relationship where there was real, real feelings was the fact that, you know, Pam told me that she had a, she had a risk of cancer and that she had a history of cancer before we even started legitimately dating. So that was sort of my out. That was like, that was like, here's the door. If, if you're not, if you're not about this, like, you know, Pam was like straight up she's like, you know, you might have to live with the fact that I might die at an early age. And it didn't really bother me. I mean, obviously, the thought of her dying. The thought of her dying greatly bothered me, but it didn't scare me away.

[Mari Takahashi]

Right. You're like, I can take this on.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, it didn't. Didn't. Yeah, that didn't. To me, that wasn't a reason to end things.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And at that time, Pam hadn't told anybody, really, about her history of cancer. You literally told your past boyfriend, like, whoever you were in a relationship with when you were going through that, but you didn't tell your parents.

[Pamela Horton]

Didn't tell my parents.

[Ian Hecox]

You didn't tell anybody. Nobody on the Internet knew. Like, a couple friends knew, and you told me. And that kind of openness really created this sort of connection between us. I feel.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, and also, too, like, you were talking about when I told you about that, and you thought about, like, there's a chance that this could happen. There's this thing where you try to imagine scenarios. Like, you try to imagine your significant other dying. And, like, the way that it plays out in your head is never how it's going to play out in real life. So I feel that although you were like, I can handle this, when it actually started happening, there was. There was something to it that was not necessarily missing, but it just hit you harder than you thought it would because, you know, a good portion of the reason that I, you know, ended the relationship is because I couldn't deal with someone not being emotionally supportive for me while I was in the hospital. Like, I mean, I don't want to go into detail because, you know, I still believe that you're a very good person. But, you know, at the time, it was just. I wasn't as important, and that's what it felt like.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, that was. That was the thing. I think the. And we can. We can either get to that now or we can get to that later. But, I mean, the. The sort of straw. The straw that broke the camel's back was I was set to go on a business trip, and it was. I was only gonna be gone for two, three days. The night before I left, you started feeling abdominal pain. And we had been through this before, and, you know, I was always there at the hospital as much as I could be. And it was. At this point, it kind of. It was almost routine, right?

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And so it was like, okay, no problem. I'm gonna go on this trip. And, you know, whatever will Happen will happen. It's probably the same exact thing as it was before. And I'll be right back. And I'll be there, and I'll be there for you. But you clearly had different needs for how you see a relationship being and how you see the person being there for you. And I wasn't there for you as much as you needed me to be in those situations.

[Pamela Horton]

Do you think that one of the reasons that you weren't there as much is because it bothered you? Like, the pain and the suffering, like, bothered you so much to the point that you couldn't tolerate being or not tolerate, but it just. You were uncomfortable being around when it was happening because it hurt so much. Or is it like one of those. I really. I haven't really broken down exactly why you weren't there. You know, like, what do you. I mean, maybe you don't have something to explain that with, but I just. Any insight would.

[Ian Hecox]

I think, like I said, it just. It. It became almost like a routine. Like, you know, we had. We had been through it before. It didn't seem like it was anything new, so we kind of knew what the outcome would be if we figured it was another torsion. And it was right. But what ended up happening is that was. That was the final. That was the final one, right? No, no, there's one more after.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, yeah, there's one more.

[Ian Hecox]

That's right. There's one more after. So. So yeah, there was another torsion. I was out on my trip, and then I came back. I had to deal with some stuff at the office, and Ryan, who's our writer is sitting behind the camera, was there that day, and he's like, you good? Pam's in the hospital. You should probably go. Go see her. I was like. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna get over there. Like, I just, you know, I need to. I need to finish this, and then. And then I'm gonna go. And the hospital is like. I mean, it was two miles away from the office, so it sounds like.

[Mari Takahashi]

You run to your defense mechanism, which is running to work, because that. That. That's the thing that makes sense for you. It's almost like you're. It's like your safe place, and it's a way to. To run away from things, which I totally get. I think it's one of the reasons why my schedule is, like, packed to the brim, because it's like, that's how I know that my life is like. Like, good. Like, you know, like, it gives you some Sort of security to know that it's there. And from the outside, that's what it sounds like. Because having to deal with it is just so difficult.

[Ian Hecox]

And I think also, like, I was just. I'm very much an optimist, and I've always. I was always an optimist in our relationship. Whenever she was, you know, worried about whatever. Whatever pain you were feeling, Pam, I was always just like, we don't know. We don't know until the doctors tell us.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Like. And, you know, you're like, you know, be. Be prepared for. For loss. You know, I could. I could get this and I could be gone in a year or six months or, you know, one time you were diagnosed and they said you had a few months to live. So you.

[Pamela Horton]

Your not. Not well. Oh, well, I mean, technically at the E.R. kinda. But my. That. The one that kinda. It was way before our relationship.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, way before our relationship. So, I mean, your sort of outlook on everything is very different from mine. You've obviously.

[Pamela Horton]

I'd say I was a realist for my life. Not everybody's lives. Once you've had a life of just stuff is what I'm gonna call it, you become very aware that the good that you have is sometimes only fleeting and that bad stuff is around the corner. So maybe sort of a pessimist, but I'm still. I'm still a very positive person.

[Mari Takahashi]

You know, it's so interesting because from the outside, it really is like, you guys are like, reading two different books. Because I can totally see it, like, from Pam's perspective, like, you've been through all this stuff, you know how hard it can be, and you see it from, like, a realist point of view. And so much emotion comes from that. When you're like, you just almost want to, like, you want it to be, like, romantic almost, where you're just like, this could be the last one, you know, like, I just want to feel all those things and then I can totally understand your perspective of just like, no, no, no. Like, it. Maybe it's not that bad. Like, let's keep our head up and keep things positive. But to you, it feels like you're not being validated where it's like you're going through all this stuff. Sorry. Yeah. Pam doesn't feel validated in what she's going through. When Ian is being the best person he knows he could be by just being optimistic. And it's like, it's interesting because we grew up with the saying, like, treat others the way you want to be. Treated. But I think as we grow older, we have to really understand that you have to treat the other person how they want to be treated. And it's like you guys were speaking your own languages as opposed to speaking each other's languages.

[Ian Hecox]

That's very astute, Mari.

[Mari Takahashi]

Damn, we're getting deep in here, you guys. Are you ready?

[Ian Hecox]

That's really good.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah. Validation is important, I think, as human beings go. And I can't point to an exact thing that has happened in my relationship, but, like, I know that feeling of being like, no, this is what I'm going through. What you're saying is too positive for me right now. It's like, get on my level at the moment. And I think that, you know, for you, you. You were just doing the best you can for what you know.

[Ian Hecox]

Right.

[Mari Takahashi]

And that's difficult to be like, well, okay, now I gotta learn another language. What's the language that you're. You're dealing with over here?

[Ian Hecox]

So, I mean, I think that's. I think that's probably, you know, my. Yeah, that totally falls in line with what I think was sort of my. My biggest failing was I can never. I can never get on the same level, and I can never. I don't know. I could never just. I never had that sort of push to change because, you know, because the way that. The way that I was in my sort of, like, mental state worked for me, so I never. I never felt like I was personally struggling, you know, mentally. Pam would always suggest, like, you know, we should maybe do therapy. Like, you know, she's. You suggested couples therapy? Well, you suggested therapy. Yeah.

[Pamela Horton]

I'm a firm believer in the fact that if you've never done therapy before, do not do couples therapy with your significant other. I mean, obviously people can make their own decisions, but I've only heard bad stories. And also, too, if, like, for instance, if Ian and I had gone to couples therapy, and I'm the one primarily having the emotional, like, pain, then it would feel like we need to analyze, you know, why that's happening and what Ian's doing. And then it would turn into, like, a, you know. You know, And I didn't want it to feel like Ian was being attacked by two people, one of which he doesn't even know. So, you know, I wanted him to kind of figure out his own, like, understanding of how to communicate and what he needs so that he could tell me that, because, you know, like, it was. It was really hard to. To communicate with each other because I'm upfront and Understanding and trying to, like, do my best to put myself in his shoes. But, you know, Ian's. Ian's, you know, like, he was like, I'm fine. You know, that we're good. I'm fine. You know, like. And, you know, I understand for the most part why that. Why that happened. I mean, he said that, you know, work. Work was really important. And so when our relationship was in jeopardy, it wasn't as much of a motivator, you know, Like, I wasn't as up there as some other things, you know, so. So I. You know, I think that we just never learned how to communicate with each other because of that.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, I think that's probably where I'm the biggest hypocrite, is in the fact that I'm a huge advocate for therapy. And I'm. And I. And I tell people, I'm like, hey, man, like, everyone should do it. Like, there's no harm. You don't have to be, like, you know, you don't have to be, like, suicidal or think you have a problem to go to therapy. And yet I have never personally made a concerted effort to seek therapy. I keep saying I'm going to. I keep making excuses.

[Mari Takahashi]

Do you know why you haven't gone?

[Pamela Horton]

Like, is it just.

[Ian Hecox]

This is not on the front of my mind.

[Mari Takahashi]

It's interesting.

[Ian Hecox]

And Pam and Pam, like, tried. And obviously you can't. You can't force someone else to go to therapy. They have to want it. And I'm like, man, like, what kind of, like, crazy, cataclysmic kind of, like, event is going to have to happen to make me seek it out? And maybe it's this podcast. Maybe. We'll see. We'll see.

[Pamela Horton]

And it's not just like, with therapy. It wasn't like he would make excuses or put it off like Ian, if it wasn't work or if it wasn't home. He didn't go to the dentist for a while until I helped make him go to the dentist. He didn't go to the doctor for a while. He didn't go see a dermatologist until.

[Ian Hecox]

My freaking skin on my hands, like, falling off.

[Pamela Horton]

Are you not going to the dermatologist?

[Ian Hecox]

I gotta go again.

[Pamela Horton]

Oh, my God.

[Ian Hecox]

I mean, it's a little better, but, you know, it's coming back. It's like eczema or something. Who knows?

[Pamela Horton]

So that's kind of like. That's just how Ian's always operated. So therapy is just another leg of that.

[Mari Takahashi]

So you're saying we just need talkspace to sponsor this pod.

[Ian Hecox]

Ooh, I don't know about. Is it Talkspace or betterhelp that got all that?

[Mari Takahashi]

Betterhelp.

[Pamela Horton]

Betterhelp.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, Talk space. Hit us up.

[Mari Takahashi]

No, it's interesting, I think, you know, and maybe you just need to dig deeper as to why you don't want to go. And maybe it's as simple as you just don't want to because it's not, you know, affecting your every single day life. Or maybe it's something deeper and there's something, you know, like you don't want to get into what's in there, or, you know, you just don't want to deal with having to have to dig deep into weird things because your day to day life is fine. You know, like, you're you. Like your day to day life. You exist and you're fine. Like, it doesn't bother you. So maybe that's why you don't want to go.

[Pamela Horton]

He's a bachelor in a boyfriend's body.

[Ian Hecox]

It's.

[Mari Takahashi]

It's an interesting topic.

[Ian Hecox]

It's that kind of thing where it's just like, it doesn't. Like, things are like, on the outside, everything's going fine. So it's like I don't have this sort of like, driver where something's, like, eating away at me that I need to, like, do it now. I think it's that kind of thing where, like, I don't really do things until it's like an absolute imperative.

[Mari Takahashi]

Until your skin's falling off.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, exactly. Until you can see the bones on.

[Mari Takahashi]

My fingers, which we can. It's gross.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. Yeah. Right, Right.

[Mari Takahashi]

I'm glad we're talking about this.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. We need to talk about your hands. They're skeletons.

[Pamela Horton]

No. Well, and I also, too, like, I, you know, I didn't want this to seem like, you know, like, you know, stuff was going wrong with Ian and like, it's all on Ian, which was at times the mindset that I had. But I also, I know that. That a good portion of our relationship was weighed down by, you know, although he said that, you know, like, my past didn't really affect me as much and I was the person I am in spite of it. But. But when behind closed doors with the person that is an extension of me, which is how I see relationships, that's when I am me, you get to see every aspect of me. And so he got to see the part of me that is crazy stressed about my family. And my family is a good source of the drama that has taken over a lot of my life, and that was a lot. And I knew it was at times very strenuous for him. I mean, like, I go, I've gone through what I've gone through my entire life, and that's kind of like my, my reality. But to, to throw it at him like that was, you know, at. Sometimes I feel like I was unloading my baggage on him too much. Like, it, I know that it was, you know, a sore spot for you, and I didn't want it to seem like, you know, oh, it's, it's all like, there's a good portion of it that was me. Like, I, I, I'm an emotional, like, I'm an emotionally driven person. Like, I, you know, I want to, you know, have everybody feel good, and I want everybody to be happy, and I want to, like, be positive. But, you know, I still have those tough conversations, and when the tough conversations need to happen, they happen. And unfortunately, sometimes I would think tough conversations needed to happen in regards to my family and how it affected me, but they didn't really need to happen. You know, like, but at the same time, although I know that my relationship with my, my mom was, was one of the, like the, the needles that was poking, but Ian was one of the ones actually. He was the one that one helped me talk about, like, he helped me realize that talking about cancer, my cancer helps people. And then two, he made me realize that I don't have to deal with my mom, you know, like, he, he. And maybe it was just like, stop talking about it. But at the same time, it was.

[Ian Hecox]

It was physically affecting you. Yeah, your, your relationship with, with your family was physically affecting you and mentally.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And, and obviously seeing you hurt, like, that was not good. And I was like, there has to be a better way. So there was a while when you didn't talk to your family and you're back to talking with them and things.

[Pamela Horton]

Very, very sporadically, and obviously we can.

[Ian Hecox]

Cut whatever this out they want.

[Pamela Horton]

No, no, no. This is all fine.

[Ian Hecox]

But I said, well, if this is affecting you so much and it's negative and, and just don't talk to them, and obviously that hurts. And I think that people should always talk to their parents, but if it's not coming from a place of love and it's only hurting you, then you just need to stop. And you got better.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, I did. I got really good. I was super healthy for a while.

[Ian Hecox]

She stressed you out so much that you were having physical.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

It's a hard relate. It's A. It's a very hard conversation to have about divorcing people in your life. And sometimes you have to. Tim Ferriss has a really good chapter day. Four hour work week. But yeah, like, the people closest to you, you rely on those people and you. It's almost like you feel like they have a responsibility to be your rock, especially your family. And it's a hard truth to figure out in your adult life that your family, your parents are still just kids who had kids, and maybe they haven't worked out their stuff yet. Maybe, you know, they'll never go to therapy. Maybe they'll never, you know, figure out the small things that bother them. But it's. It's a hard truth. And, you know, we all go about it differently, but it's important to figure it out for yourself.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And in regards to, you know, your cancer and you not telling anyone and, you know, for me, I felt that it would be healthy for you to talk about it. And also your story was so incredible for me that I felt like people needed to hear about it. I felt like it would help a lot of people, and I feel like it has.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah. Yeah, it was. And that's why, you know, I've always, like, love talking to you about things because you. You have such a different but neutral perspective. You always have an idea that for the most part helps everybody involved or I've always felt really comfortable talking to you about things. So when you were like, you know what? I think you should consider this. And I was just like, yeah, you're right. I've been so closed off to it because I've been set in my own ways that I haven't opened my mind to something like that because a part of me was like, I just feel like I'm, you know, being that victimized person where I'm like, I had a hard life, you know, like, I don't want to be that person. And in the way that I've chosen to do it with, you know, Ian supporting me the entire way was very helpful to people. And that's something that I've always appreciated.

[Mari Takahashi]

I remember your videos. You know, you came out with it and you, you know, encouraged people to check themselves out and make sure you go to the doctor and, you know, if you feel anything, go. And there were so many comments of like, thank you, Pam, I think I'm gonna go to my doctor, or, thank you, Pam, I went to my doctor. And, you know, this is. This has been preventative for something bigger. So, yeah, I think that's something really great that you encouraged.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

But I also. I mean, I also understood why you didn't want to do it. You didn't want to be. Have that be your identity. The girl. The girl with cancer.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Because you wanted to be. You wanted to be known and appreciated for your talents, not for this sort of burden.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

So I totally understood that. But I'm glad that you chose to, you know, be open about it.

[Pamela Horton]

Me too.

[Mari Takahashi]

I think, like, the biggest takeaway for me, like, just as also, you know, in the conversation, but as a listener, is that nothing is black and white. And I think one of us said that at the very beginning. It's just like, you guys see photos, videos, whatever, of relationships, but you don't see the, you know, the nights where you're having incredible conversations. You're not seeing the nights where there's tears and misunderstandings and, you know, the days in the hospital and the days that you're not in the hospital, and it's like you don't see all of it. And I think it's important to remember for all of us seeing relationships happen online, that it's just a needle size. It's a pinhole size display of what the whole thing is.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

So don't get so caught up in what you see in other people, I guess.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

You know, experience things for yourself and know that it's not. It's not perfect.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

That's what relationships are.

[Pamela Horton]

It's kind of like those girls that go to weddings and, like, how come we're not married? And it's like, that's not where we're at, you know? You know, like, there's the acclimation to. Or I mean, the inclination to compare your relationship. Like, oh, well, so. And so does this. And so. And so does this. And this is what they. They go to these parties and they do this, and it's just like. Yeah, but they're not in this relationship. So it's the. You have to be able to analyze the way that you work with somebody. And also a big part of that is recognizing red flags, like, recognizing signs that you shouldn't proceed. You shouldn't let them do that. Like, balance, like the. There's no balance of, you know, back. Because sometimes. Sometimes, Mara, you might have a really bad day and, you know, maybe Pete had a bad day too, but in his head he was like, it's not as bad. I'm gonna put that away and I'm gonna take care of you. Like, sometimes the balance is a little wonky, but there's always, it's still balance, you know, like, it comes back over.

[Mari Takahashi]

It comes from experience, though. And so many mistakes. You gotta make so many mistakes. And then once those, you know, the good still outweighs all of those mistakes. That's when you're like, that's, that's when you keep proceeding. Right. But it's when the negatives outweigh the positives that you're like, throwing that towel. I wanted to touch on something. Oh. I wanted to ask, you know, I feel like, like you mentioned, we've kind of thrown out the rule book of, like, start dating someone, get married, have children, watch them grow up and then retire and die. Like that rulebook was so set in place for so many decades.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

Like, until now, like, that rulebook is gone. What is the biggest misconception of relationships? That, that you guys have kind of like broken the barrier of or. I think the fact that you guys are friends after a relationship is still.

[Pamela Horton]

That's a big one.

[Mari Takahashi]

That's a big one. Like, people can be friends. It has to be this.

[Ian Hecox]

I think, yeah, to me, I think I said it in the other pod podcast, or maybe I just said it in person. But to me it's, it is very weird that you could share everything with somebody. You could, you know, you share the deepest, darkest parts of your mind with somebody, share your body with them. You know, only if you're married, though. No, but you, you share everything with this person and then you break up and then you have to become mortal enemies with them.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And I, and I'm not saying that everybody could be friends with their ex. And that's, and it's probably unhealthy to think, to think that as well like that, you know, you're going to be friends with your ex. But, you know, the way that things ended for us and the way that things ended with my last long term relationship ended on a. In a nice way. You know, there, there weren't, you know, really hurt feelings. Nobody was, was screwed over.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

It was just like, hey, is this working out? No. Okay. Are there sort of unreconcilable differences? Yes. All right, well, then maybe, maybe let's end this.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Obviously, you know, our relationship didn't end that. It wasn't that formal. Oh, I cried a little bit more than that. I cried like a little bitch.

[Pamela Horton]

No, I still don't think you did.

[Ian Hecox]

I did. I did the kind of crying where your voice gets like.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, okay, that was fun.

[Ian Hecox]

We broke up in the hospital.

[Pamela Horton]

In the hospital. I was still in the hospital. I was just. Nevermind.

[Ian Hecox]

But I mean, the great. What I really, really appreciated about our breakup is, you know, well, you said, let's go on. Let's go on a break. And I said, well, I don't believe in breaks, so we should probably just end it. And then maybe down the road, maybe down the road in the future, you know, we'll be walking down the street, run into each other. Hey, you want to give us another go?

[Pamela Horton]

Sure.

[Ian Hecox]

But for now, let's. Let's just end it. If you feel like we need to go on a break, let's just end it.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And then it wasn't like I just like, walked out of the hospital room.

[Pamela Horton]

We talked for like an hour and a half.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. Felt like a long, long time.

[Pamela Horton]

I mean, we were talking real fast.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. You know, you had places to be, but I felt like that was so nice to be able to, like, you know, say, like, okay, this is over for now, but let's talk about it and being able to talk. And then. And then when you went into the hospital, the next time, that's when you had your second ovary removed. So that was the end of, you know, all the lady bits.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And then I visited you in the hospital a few times.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Stayed. I think I stayed the night with you one night.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And that gave us an opportunity to, like, really sort of break down, like what, you know, what the relationship was.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, we had also made it past the emotionally traumatic, like, oh, God, it's happening now, and what do I do? And how do I wake up? And we had had some time to. Time to ourselves, and so we could really look at the relationship objectively. And I don't necessarily think that people who break up should revisit and be like, what did we do wrong by? One of the reasons that I think that Ian and I are able to be such good friends after the breakup is because despite the fact that although we didn't agree on things, we've had a profound amount of respect for each other. We don't necessarily need to agree, but we understand. Like, I don't know, or. I mean, in my head, I wouldn't operate the same way that Ian would in some ways. But I understand. I understand him. I understand why he made the decisions, and I respect that. You know, like, I. It's the respect that made it so that, you know, like, ultimately I just, you know, we want each other to be happy, and if it wasn't happening together, we have to, you know, do the appropriate steps. And we've had respect and understanding of each other the whole way, and we can.

[Ian Hecox]

We can cut this part out if you're not. If you're not comfortable with it. But, you know, then. And then you had told me that you were. You were with somebody else.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And it's. And it's that kind of thing where, like. Yeah, this. This hurts me a little bit.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

But if they can. If they can give you something that. That I wasn't giving, and if they can sort of emotionally fulfill you in a way that. That I couldn't, then why should I feel hurt? You know, if. If you're able to find somebody that. That better suits you, like, yeah, it's, like, sad for me, but also, like, that's. That's really selfish of me to be angry about it. You know what I mean? So.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, I mean, the way. The way that you worded it, the way that you talked to me about it is just that, you know, like, a good portion of our lives, like, at least, you know, not a good portion, a significant portion of our lives was spent in a relationship with each other. You got used to certain things. You had a routine. You know, we. We did things together. And now certain things are like, you know, trying to imagine instead of you, it being someone else. Like, that's. That's a real pain. Like, you don't. You don't have to, like, you know, make. Excuse yourself for feeling that. I mean, it's. It's. You have emotions, you have feelings. And. And, you know, I've. I've appreciated the fact that you. You were very upfront with, like, hey, I. In. I'm not. Or not necessarily not okay with the relationship, but you're like, I, you know, I need some time. You know, like. And I was absolutely. Yeah, I totally understand.

[Ian Hecox]

I mean, it definitely, like, it definitely felt weird and it hurt. But at the same time, I can also rationalize with the fact that, like, it's not like you're my property.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

It's like you're a completely separate human being with your own own, you know, needs and wants. And. And, you know, if. If there's somebody else that's. That's better suited. Why should I be angry?

[Mari Takahashi]

I think it goes back to this preconceived notion of, like, what we think relationships are. And, like, I. I do think that we grew up with this notion that it's like, there's one soulmate in the world for you and you'll love one time.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, that's some big old pile of bold.

[Mari Takahashi]

It is. You know, I think as humans, we have the capacity to love so much and, like. And I think it's, at least in my life, I think it's really, really important for me to get it out there that it's okay to continue loving people.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Mari Takahashi]

You know, and it's like, it's. It's okay to love that. That portion of your life, those, you know, two years of your life or eight years of your life or whatever it is. You know, as you move forward into future relationships, it's still okay to have that capacity of love for other people?

[Pamela Horton]

Absolutely.

[Ian Hecox]

Also, if you're young, like, you grow up, you become a different person. It's completely rational to say you started dating somebody when you were 20 and you're 25, and you've become different people and you're not in love with that person anymore. That's fine. That's understandable. You could be a completely different person, and you don't have to make excuses for why you feel differently.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, I. I buy into the notion that people have multiple soulmates because the person that I was 10 years ago was completely different. I would probably. We probably would not have even started dating because of the person that I was. And I. I believe that the people that I was with and committed to at those times in my life were my soulmate at the time. You know, like, I. You know, things got along really well, and then I shifted as a person, and they didn't shift in the same direction and couldn't continue. And that's okay. You know, like, you should never have to try to prevent yourself from changing or try to change yourself in a extreme way to benefit a relationship. Because ultimately, what you want at the end of the day is to be happy and fulfilled and to know that you did it for you and you didn't do it for somebody else. You wanna. At the end of the day, you just want to be happy. And if someone makes you happy, good. But if someone doesn't make you happy, then not good.

[Ian Hecox]

But also, say your high school sweethearts, you get married, you have a couple kids, and you, you know, you have certain differences, but you still make it work, and that's also fine.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah, you can be happy and not. You can be happy in a relationship but not be happy all the time. You know, like, you can be angry at somebody but still love them and feel super happy with them. You know, like, throw out the rule book. Yep.

[Mari Takahashi]

I feel like we're, like, standing on, like, death in a school room and we're like, ripping out all the pages out of a textbook.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Carpe diem.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

Oh, captain, my captain, my captain.

[Mari Takahashi]

What have you learned from your relationship together that, you know, you'll, you know, bring with you into the future, into future relationships, into future, you know, into your future?

[Ian Hecox]

Oh, I mean, for me, I feel like Ariana Grande said it best. You know, thank u next. You know, one taught me love. One taught me.

[Mari Takahashi]

I was hoping it was something about a small barbecue.

[Pamela Horton]

I was wondering why you. You're like, I thank you next time.

[Ian Hecox]

Well. Cause I was. I was thinking, like, there's a couple, like, real lines in there. I'm like, yeah, I completely relate to that. Like, I.

[Mari Takahashi]

You almost yassed there.

[Pamela Horton]

Yes.

[Ian Hecox]

I took. I. You know, I learned a lot of really great things from my. From my last relationship, and I don't regret the time that I spent in that relationship, and I don't regret the time that I spent in my relationship with Pam. I became a better person because of it, I feel. And I'm gonna take what I learned and then apply that to if. To the next person. Maybe I'll never find somebody that's also fine.

[Mari Takahashi]

But you have this podcast.

[Pamela Horton]

Yes.

[Ian Hecox]

This microphone is my.

[Pamela Horton]

Is my podcast Married to Work.

[Mari Takahashi]

But it sounds like you're taking the positives, and I think that's a really great message. I'm just like.

[Pamela Horton]

I mean, he's always been an optimist.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. I think it's a hard thing for people to do if you're not thinking about it. It's a perspective change of, like, what are the positive things that I can take from this relationship as opposed to taking the baggage portion of it.

[Pamela Horton]

I feel like I now have a better understanding of understanding. I have a better respect for it because, you know, you know, I. I had a level of patience that, you know, just kept on going. And so I had the time to really figure out Ian. Like, I. We've joked before that I know Ian better than he knows himself, but true.

[Ian Hecox]

She also knows my parents better than.

[Pamela Horton]

I know them, but, you know, he gave me an understanding and respect of. Of understanding the mindset and the history and the complete makeup of a person. You know, like, I said it at the beginning of the relationship where, you know, like, I don't hate people that my significant other has dated. I don't hate the things that they've done because those things brought them to me. Like, the person that Ian was when we were dating was a culmination of all those experiences. Good and bad. And when I said it, I felt it, but I didn't truly. Like, I didn't have a firm knowledge of it, and now I feel I do. Like, I am a lot more patient with certain people in my life and a lot more understanding to try to understand their perspective instead of being stuck in my own head. They have their story, and I should listen to it a lot more.

[Ian Hecox]

All right.

[Mari Takahashi]

What do you guys miss about each other? I know you guys still see each other. You guys talk still, but are there certain things that you guys miss?

[Pamela Horton]

One of the things that I miss, but I love about Ian is he gives me my independence, you know, like, he doesn't always want to be in my arm, and he doesn't always need to be involved with what I'm doing. And not that that's a bad thing, but I just got. Got so used to the incredible independence that he gave me that, you know, when confronted with, you know, any sort of attachment, I'm like, oh, what are you doing? No, he's always had. We've always had a level of respect for each other. And, you know, I feel that, you know, sometimes that respect is once in a lifetime respect before a relationship, in a relationship, and after a relationship that is very unique. And, you know, he's given me respect and independence in all aspects of our relationship. And. And, you know, like, I. I miss the. The romantic side of, you know, like, being able to love someone but have my own space, you know? Like, is that. Do you understand?

[Mari Takahashi]

Absolutely. No. I think it's so counterintuitive what to what women think we want, right? Like, we think, like, we want somebody to clamor over us and ask where we are every second. And it's like, oh, no, that's like Edward Cullen, like, song that sounds like hell ish, you know, and it's like, once we have a taste of, like, having our independence and having our partner be like, no, I trust you. Like, go out there and do it. Like, I'll text you in six hours. Like, I hope you have a dope day. It continues on. On our journey on our own, parallel to our partner, as opposed to having to have to merge into one lane. Yeah, I think that's fantastic.

[Pamela Horton]

I also think that Ian, out of everybody that I've ever dated or ever even known, has an incredible, like, sturdy trust. Like, he never distrusted me. He never got jealous. He never, like, he was, you know, like. And I think it was one of the things that he said early on where it was just like, hey, if you're gonna leave me? You're gonna leave me. You know, if you want someone else, you're gonna go get it. Him. But. But he trusted me, you know, And. And I. Oh, man. I've never had that level of trust before, and I probably won't have it ever again, you know?

[Ian Hecox]

Sorry I ruined you. Yeah, I mean, the. I mean, to me, trust was the most important thing because there was. There was a. There was less trust in my last relationship. And that was. And that was a big problem. Like, if you don't have 100% trust on the person you're with, I don't see it working out. Yeah, I just don't. There. Yeah. So I. I guess. I guess the thing that I'm. What do I miss most about Pam? Well, I mean, I. I hope I am fortunate enough to. To find another person that is as loving and understanding and patient as you are.

[Pamela Horton]

Deal. And also, too. I probably, like, you know, I was like his personal assistant. So.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, I was really bad. I was really bad at getting the mail. I let it pile up, and it's piling up right now. Actually, now that I think about it.

[Pamela Horton]

I gotta come over and pick up my mail anyways.

[Ian Hecox]

That's true. Yeah. You still get some things in my house.

[Mari Takahashi]

Well, before we wrap up, I have one more question, and this is pointing to Ian. Ian, what was a harder breakup? You and Pam or you and Anthony?

[Pamela Horton]

Oh.

[Ian Hecox]

Oh, come on. Don't do me like that.

[Pamela Horton]

Press the buttons. Press the buttons.

[Ian Hecox]

I don't think I. I don't think I cried. I don't think I. Well, I didn't cry with. With Anthony leaving because Anthony and I, you know, we. We knew. We knew it was. We knew what had to happen.

[Mari Takahashi]

It was coming.

[Ian Hecox]

It was coming.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And with Pam and I, like, sure, yeah, there was like some. Something feelings, like, maybe this won't last. Maybe. But I was always very optimistic about our relationship. So when she brought up, like, I think we should go on a break.

[Mari Takahashi]

I was like, each one's different.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah.

[Pamela Horton]

Is that your answer? That each one is different?

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. I didn't cry. I didn't cry with Anthony. I don't think I did. Anthony got a little teary in our video when we left. Yeah.

[Pamela Horton]

Well, I think from my perspective, each breakaway, you learned some very valuable lessons, and you became a better person for it instead of letting it. I had the pleasure and honor to watch Ian go through some of the toughest things in his life. Not to say that it was an honor to watch him suffer, but I watched him grow. I watched him.

[Mari Takahashi]

Very Japanese of you.

[Pamela Horton]

I watched him grow. I watched him make some really hard decisions and then, you know, work towards that. You know, like, I was. I'd come into the office and I'd just be super proud to see him playing boss man. And, you know, like, he worked really hard. And then, like, seeing after we break up, he's. I do think that he's changed for the better, and he's really taking the lessons hard. So, you know, each one's different, but, I mean, I think you've handled them both with just an amazing amount of strength and grace, and you're really good at it.

[Ian Hecox]

Thank you. I mean, I haven't torched this place.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yet, so there's that still rising from the ashes. Can't torch it while it's rising. It's not science.

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah. Well, Pam, thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, I feel like this went really well. Mari, you're wonderful, Mari.

[Pamela Horton]

I love you guys.

[Ian Hecox]

I know. We're gonna need a big, long hug after this.

[Pamela Horton]

Yeah.

[Ian Hecox]

And thank you guys for riding through this journey with us. Wow.

[Pamela Horton]

Oh, man.

[Ian Hecox]

Gosh dang.

[Mari Takahashi]

How was your first therapy session?

[Ian Hecox]

Yeah, for real? This honestly did. This honestly did feel like a therapy session. Not that I would know.

[Pamela Horton]

Do you feel better?

[Ian Hecox]

I feel better. How do you. How do you guys feel?

[Pamela Horton]

I feel really good.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah. I just feel like it's. It's. I don't know. I mean, I think. I hope the audience gets a lot out of it where it's just like there's a lot more than what you see out there.

[Ian Hecox]

Yep.

[Mari Takahashi]

And that's good.

[Ian Hecox]

That's all we do. That's all we do here. We just drop the truth. Because the truth feels the best.

[Mari Takahashi]

Yeah.

[Pamela Horton]

Yep.

[Ian Hecox]

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[Pamela Horton]

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[Ian Hecox]

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[Pamela Horton]

Bye.

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