Issa Rae on Friendships That Need to Go, from IMO

Summary

Snap Judgment Podcast Summary: "Issa Rae on Friendships That Need to Go, from IMO"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Snap Judgment
• Host/Author: Snap Judgment and PRX
• Episode: Issa Rae on Friendships That Need to Go, from IMO
• Release Date: March 19, 2025
• Description: Snap Judgment crafts cinematic, dramatic radio by blending real stories with compelling beats, encouraging listeners to experience the world from diverse perspectives. This episode features a special segment from IMO, hosted by Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, focusing on the challenges of maintaining adult friendships.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode begins with a brief advertisement from Progressive Insurance before transitioning to the core content. Michelle Obama introduces IMO, highlighting its purpose to tackle everyday questions shaping lives and relationships through personal storytelling and humor.

Notable Quote:

“Snap Judgment mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio.” – Michelle Obama [00:02]

2. Guest Introduction: Issa Rae

Issa Rae joins Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson to delve into the complexities of adult friendships. Her presence adds a layer of expertise and personal experience, especially concerning navigating friendships amidst career advancements and personal growth.

Notable Quote:

“I'm doing really well. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned the restaurant that it is called Summerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.” – Issa Rae [11:10]

3. Discussion on Male vs. Female Friendships

Craig Robinson initiates a conversation about the inherent differences between male and female friendships. He suggests that male friendships are often more transactional, focusing on shared activities and mutual benefits rather than deep emotional connections.

Notable Quotes:

“Guys do that. Guys do that.” – Unknown Male Speaker [07:35]
“My feelings hurt, so I don't. I can't know you.” – Craig Robinson [08:26]

Issa Rae counters by emphasizing the importance of emotional vulnerability in friendships, highlighting how female friendships typically involve deeper emotional exchanges and support systems.

Notable Quote:

“There's just something that you don't know affect you until you talk about it.” – Issa Rae [30:09]

4. Listener Letter: Eva’s Story

A critical segment features a listener letter from Eva, a 32-year-old woman who experienced the sudden end of her friendship with Kristin. Eva describes the imbalance in their friendship, where Kristin sought more emotional support and effort than Eva could provide, leading to the abrupt termination of their relationship.

Excerpt from the Letter:

“...recently, Kristin lost a close family member. When I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over.” – Eva [16:15]

5. Analyzing Eva’s Situation

Issa Rae and Craig Robinson dissect Eva’s predicament, exploring the reasons behind the unbalanced friendship. They discuss the emotional toll of not meeting a friend’s expectations and the importance of recognizing when to set boundaries or end a friendship that no longer serves both parties.

Notable Quotes:

“The idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable or if I felt betrayed by you, that is devastating.” – Issa Rae [20:03]
“We are getting a divorce. It's already.” – Unknown Male Speaker [09:15]

6. Advice for Maintaining Healthy Friendships

The hosts provide practical advice for listeners dealing with similar friendship issues. They emphasize the importance of honest communication, setting clear boundaries, and understanding each friend’s “friendship language” (e.g., time, acts of service, emotional support).

Notable Advice:

• Issa Rae: “Write a letter with no expectation of a response... if you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology.” [59:25]
• Craig Robinson: “Be intentional about how you show up for your friends... understanding who your friend is and what they need.” [54:04]

7. Closing Remarks

Michelle Obama wraps up the episode by inviting listeners to explore more episodes of IMO, reinforcing the show's mission to provide insightful and relatable discussions on personal relationships.

Notable Quote:

“That was a preview of IMO, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcast.” – Michelle Obama [60:57]

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Key Takeaways:

• Friendship Dynamics: Male friendships often revolve around shared activities and are more transactional, whereas female friendships involve deeper emotional connections and support.

• Imbalanced Relationships: Friendships can become unbalanced when expectations are mismatched, leading to feelings of neglect or resentment, as illustrated by Eva’s experience.

• Personal Growth: As individuals grow, maintaining old friendships requires effort, honest communication, and sometimes making the difficult decision to part ways.

• Practical Advice: Effective communication, setting boundaries, and understanding each friend’s needs are crucial for maintaining healthy, balanced friendships.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “Snap Judgment mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio.” – Michelle Obama [00:02]
• “I just wanna be at the table with my friends completely myself.” – Craig Robinson [22:59]
• “There's just something that you don't know affect you until you talk about it.” – Issa Rae [30:09]
• “Write a letter with no expectation of a response... if you really do care...” – Issa Rae [59:25]
• “Be intentional about how you show up for your friends...” – Craig Robinson [54:04]

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This episode of Snap Judgment in collaboration with IMO offers a profound exploration of the intricacies of adult friendships. Through personal anecdotes, listener stories, and expert advice from Michelle Obama, Craig Robinson, and Issa Rae, listeners gain valuable insights into maintaining healthy, fulfilling relationships and understanding when it might be time to let go of unbalanced friendships.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

Snap Studios. Snap Judgment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Hey, Snappers. Today's offering is a little bit different, but very, very special. It's a new show for my friends at higher ground, hosted by Michelle Obama. Yes, that Michelle Obama. It's called imo. On Snap, you rock stories that help you laugh, help you think, help you see the world through someone else's eyes. Similarly, on imo, Michelle and her big brother, Craig Robinson bring candid perspectives to the everyday. Questions shaping our lives, shaping our relationships and the world around us. Each week, they're joined by a guest to tackle real questions from real folk just like you, offering practical advice, personal storytelling, and plenty of laughs. Topics range from dating and relationships to family and faith. Michelle and Craig share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives. From first crushes and fraught college years to landing at the White House to losing their mom. For six decades, they've been each other's most trusted counsel. And now they want to be that counsel for you. In this episode, they're joined by actress Issa Rae, who for a conversation about navigating the challenges of mismatched expectations and adult friendships. You can find more episodes of IMO wherever you get your podcast.

[Craig Robinson]

Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Robinson]

Like somebody's on a train.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. Flying.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, there's. There's movement, and you're not going to deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming. It's a crisis.

[Issa Rae]

My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Took off.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Work is a script that is something that you could write on television plan.

[Issa Rae]

And doing a text like, you know, she's not gonna be good. Like, she's. She doesn't need this right now, you know?

[Craig Robinson]

Right, right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You know what's so horrible about that is guys would be like, damn.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, that's it.

[Craig Robinson]

Obviously not a crisis.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Sorry.

[Issa Rae]

Send a dog a boat.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, Juice, I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

What.

[Issa Rae]

Where'd you get a dog?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Okay, we are back. Hey.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, hi again. You. It's you again. Oh, I like your. Is that pink?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

It's. My wife called it Coral, but it could be.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, it is coral. And it's a little pleated. What? This is. This is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing. Watch out now. Collar. Okay. I see you, Craig Robinson.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I am. I'm thrilled that you like my clothes.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Nice.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

See you guys. It's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, you don't even need much closet space, but you stepping out. You stepping out.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Thank you.

[Craig Robinson]

What's new and exciting?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, I gotta tell you, while we're out here in La Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't.

[Craig Robinson]

You don't drive. I might. No, no, I'm starting to drive. Really? Yeah, I can drive.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

How's that. How's the Secret Service letting you drive?

[Craig Robinson]

Well, it's a secret. You could take me for a spin.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

They'll let me take you for a spin.

[Craig Robinson]

Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee and the boys wanted me to pick them up from school and we did.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

And you tooled up in a motorcade.

[Craig Robinson]

In a motorcade in the pickup line. They were just like, niche. I was like, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Four cars deep in the pickup line. Four suv.

[Craig Robinson]

That was so much fun. I'm sure their friends were like, what the heck, yo?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

And then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, me.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm like, get in and don't touch the. I do remember that. Oh, my good. But. So we're talking about friendship today.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah. And people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born.

[Craig Robinson]

Yep. Cause it couldn't happen before then. I couldn't.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Nope. It could not happen before then. But my first question to you is, how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?

[Craig Robinson]

Like the little.

[Issa Rae]

Little.

[Craig Robinson]

I don't keep up. Don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little little time. Although, as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. And two of my girl girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki. And they had a little sister, Gina. Gina. But they came to the funeral and it was funny. We got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't. I hadn't missed a minute with them. But. So we vowed to keep in touch. But outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least. Almost, at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life. So what I found is like one of my best friend. Roommate, who. You know, Angela from Princeton. She was my roommate. She's my girl. Always talk to her from law school. My friend Verna just went to her house for lunch just the other day. She's in D.C. you know. And then my mom friends, because as I got married. But then, even before then, that was Pam. She was more my professional friend when I was. When. When we were grownups and had jobs at law firms. And, you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the White House, you know, one of the things you were like, no new friends. That's it. And I was like, ah, you know.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I did say that.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. You were kind of joking. But it was important for me in the normalcy of my life to be able to. Or to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Right. And this today's show is talking about differences with those friends and falling out of friendship with good friends. And I'm just thinking, see, guys are a little different. Guys are. Their friendships are more transactional. Right.

[Craig Robinson]

What do you mean by that?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, what I mean is, after sort of grammar school and high school, where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character, most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event. You've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't wanna go. So you all right? I'm.

[Craig Robinson]

But you just make a friend. It's like, okay, let's be friends.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Come to the game. Guys do that. Guys do that.

[Craig Robinson]

That's why y'all are broken.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We are not broken, but we don't go as deep.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

So if something happens, we're not as hurt.

[Craig Robinson]

Is that. Are you. Is that meant y'all scared? Is that what goes on?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Nobody said y'all scared. It's just a.

[Craig Robinson]

My feelings hurt, so I don't. I can't know you.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

It's a. It' of how we socialize with each other. And like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year, or I could talk to every week. And the relationship is mostly the same.

[Craig Robinson]

That's cause y'all don't talk about nothing.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, we don't. You're right about that. It's hard to go deep. You know, when we go deep is when it's too late.

[Craig Robinson]

Deathbed. It's like, woo.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Or, you know, Bubba.

[Craig Robinson]

I wish I had asked him about his family.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We're getting a divorce. It's already.

[Unknown Female Speaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And then there's some tragedy.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

It's like, why didn't you say anything? I didn't say anything. Cause I didn't want to burden you and I was gonna thug through it myself. But today's show, we're gonna talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends.

[Craig Robinson]

And we got company.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We do have company. And I can't tell you how excited I am for this company because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom com ish type shows. And my wife said, you gotta watch this. Insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. She said, you gotta watch it. It's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And she said, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it. She made me watch the first two episodes back to back. Because she was like, on episode four, I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one and then I watched the third and the fourth. Cause I was only gonna watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress who then I had to do a little research, and I found out she was a writer getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a. And a community folk, you know, kind of like y'all. Yeah, just in the community, doing stuff for black folks.

[Craig Robinson]

Giving it. Giving it back.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Giving it back. And just so supremely talented. Let's bring on Issa Rae.

[Craig Robinson]

Issa, watch him.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Watch him. I'm just meeting her for the first time. So happy to have you here. She'll be okay.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, welcome to the table.

[Issa Rae]

Thank you so much. I was just nodding and. Mm. Back there. I had so many times I wanted to jump in, y'all, seriously.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, what's been going on? How are you so much?

[Issa Rae]

I'm doing really well. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned the restaurant that it is called Summerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant? Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial?

[Issa Rae]

You know, it's twofold. I'VE always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or waitress. Waitress. Really? Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay, well, there you go.

[Issa Rae]

I like the food environment. I love serving, I love hosting, and there is a degree of that. And I love eating out. And so since I was young, I've even play, like doing play dates with my brother, my little brother. Our play dates would be restaurant. Restaurant, yes. And I would be the bossy restaurant owner.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Sounds familiar.

[Issa Rae]

And then also I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday and it was like the 30 something birthday.

[Craig Robinson]

You're a Capricorn, too?

[Issa Rae]

I'm a Capricorn. Maybe 17. You already know 12th over here.

[Craig Robinson]

That's why we bossy.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, I know. I don't like saving it. I don't want to give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out. We always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner and we were just like, let's go. Like, we trying to go out. And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club, you're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard. We went to like so many different spots and it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just. And it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from la. We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was like my villain origin story where I was like, I want that in my neighborhood, man.

[Craig Robinson]

Doing it with your little baby boss self.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Were you gonna say something?

[Craig Robinson]

I wanted to find out. As we talk about friendships, and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, you know, which applies to you, is that as you've become Issa Rae, you know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it, you know, have you become more cautious? Have you. Have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently or felt like you needed to think about friendships differently given your, you know, your ascent and who you become?

[Issa Rae]

I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school who are. Because I'm from la and there is a sense of this feeling, like my job, like, I don't. I didn't. I didn't move here to become myself. Yeah, yeah, I was already here. And I grew up around this environment. And a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joeisa Jope. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me, and the people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. But I've definitely had friendship breakups as a result, some as a result of working together as we both ascended, some as a result of not being able to handle the change in position, the time. Like, I had a friend who I thought I was gonna be friends with forever, but she went through two major milestones, kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was actually strike two, I think, on my part. For her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college, and she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started, like, rising in my own career, and I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously. So we fell apart and drifted apart, and we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was one of my most painful friendship breakups. Because it wasn't acknowledged. Yeah, in that way.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Right.

[Issa Rae]

But I haven't had any, like, you're famous. I'm using you type things.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So, Natalie, are you ready to read us? Read us the letter.

[Unknown Female Speaker]

Let's do it.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

All right.

[Issa Rae]

Yes.

[Unknown Female Speaker]

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is eva, and I'm 32 years old. In my early 20s, I met my friend Kristin through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristin felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless, like both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other. But I noticed right away that Kristin wanted to make plans. Pretty often. I'm a people pleaser, and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates. And when it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristen. She's incredibly thoughtful, and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together, and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years. Recently, though, Kristin lost a close family member. And when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me. She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect. But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love. And I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself. How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva.

[Issa Rae]

That took so many turns.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Can I just say before we dig into this, there would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't. It's not our thing.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, I just. I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we are. We go there, we are, you know, and we spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women. So we are sociologists. I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just going to throw a ball, you know, we're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I want to know why. How. Tell me more. What did that. Well, let's talk about that a little bit more. And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts. Why it hurts so much.

[Issa Rae]

Absolutely.

[Craig Robinson]

Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful, and they don't always last, but. But because of that, you don't end it without the hurt, you know, it is complicated.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. There's a piece of you that you're giving so many of. I mean, so many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with anyone that I've. As a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means like, you mean a lot to me and that I, that I see a future with you and automatically if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable or if I felt betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with. And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of selfishness there. Just even in terms of how she saw the friendship, but it still felt like she was in any version of this. I don't know, I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways.

[Craig Robinson]

The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships and hurts is strong when they're, when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity, right? Because, you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's, that, that's always present.

[Issa Rae]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, someone in every relationship is given a little more, given less. You know, some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and flawed and all of us are. That has never been a problem for me. Like the complicated nature of my friends, right. When I felt most almost betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table giving, sharing, and you weren't, you were at the table, but it's sort of like it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through there. Probably felt like a little emotional, you know, I felt emotionally robbed because it was like you weren't telling me, you weren't telling me. And you know, and maybe it's because I've. What, you didn't trust me? You didn't trust yourself?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

See, she's still hot about it. Can you tell me?

[Issa Rae]

But I'm just using it as an.

[Craig Robinson]

Example in the table of. For me at least that becomes more important, you know, And Maybe it's because of who I am and trust and, you know, when you and I let people in. So when I let people in, you're in.

[Issa Rae]

Yep.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there, or maybe she wasn't.

[Issa Rae]

That's complicated.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship.

[Craig Robinson]

Why you really. It's like, what's your problem?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know, relationships ebb and flow, so it's rarely going to be where the. Everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always out of balance?

[Craig Robinson]

I think I said I don't disagree with that.

[Issa Rae]

But there is a. If you're. If you're always showing up, if you're always the one, that's like checking in. If you're. Even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like tickets to the games. I'm always one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you and you're not, like, that's still. There's an imbalance. Like, I'm always thinking of you first, but you're not thinking of me first. That's like. That's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not gonna show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours. Yeah, I mean, that. That. That's a problem. You know, if I look, I don't mind hosting. I don't mind being. Because oftentimes in my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one. I have the resources. I've got the, you know, I have more of the special go, guess what we can do. And there. There's a natural imbalance. But it's like you. If you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner or.

[Issa Rae]

Whatever, even if it's just pizza, I know your effort is. Yes. Even if it's just pizza. Like, girl, I know you like pizza and you invited me, this means you know, and I'm fine. I will meet you where you're at, because I know that this is your love language, but you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort or that you don't rank as high on their. On their list of friends. That's the right way.

[Craig Robinson]

So what's your version of balanced in friendship?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You know, I guess with me and my friends, because, like you, I don't want to generalize as long as every now and then somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight. You use tickets. Tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing. Or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalent cd.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, I agree.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

That's equivalent cd. But what I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. To your point. Issa, my friends and I don't. We don't roll that way. We're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just. We don't go as deep. And like you were saying how it's sociology for women. It's not. It's carpentry for men. You know, it's just.

[Craig Robinson]

It's shop.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I didn't want to say Jim, but it's. We enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep.

[Issa Rae]

To what extent? So, like, even if I'm not getting your business, but, like, for the worst of it, right?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We are getting much for the divorce.

[Craig Robinson]

Two Capricorns. I told her we in your business.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I told. Like, I tell her everything.

[Issa Rae]

Okay.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But she left out. The reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out. Because if it didn't work out and I got over it, she would never get over it.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, interesting.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep.

[Issa Rae]

You did go deep with it.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

So you actually brought up, like, this is a thing that I'm going through.

[Craig Robinson]

Or did you bring up we're having problems and let's talk about. Or did you wait until.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Like I said at the outset, I waited until it.

[Craig Robinson]

So that you didn't go deep.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But no, see, now, see, there's no timing to it.

[Craig Robinson]

I mean, but there is.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

So it was deep for me. It Was deep for me. Irrespective of the timing, just the mere.

[Craig Robinson]

Fact that you told somebody the obvious, you told your friends that it happened, that it happened. That it's happening, that it's happening, not that it.

[Issa Rae]

And when you were going through it, right. And it was hard, who did you talk to?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I talked to two really good friends of mine, and we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading, and we'd have cigars and margaritas, and it was three of us, and we had one chair in the middle, so it was the whoever. And we called it the Chair of Angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the chair of Angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the chair of Angst for, like, seven months because I was going through this, and I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want. If I could somehow kick. Save this thing.

[Issa Rae]

That's fair.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Then I could tell them after the fact. Yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family, and if I.

[Issa Rae]

He's right about that. Is he right?

[Craig Robinson]

It's sort of. Sort of right. We would have been. But, you know, you do what your family needs at the time. You know, there's no way we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things. It would just have been good to know that before, it was like, everything's great, and now everything is over.

[Issa Rae]

That's how we found out.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

That's how they found out.

[Craig Robinson]

They found out. So it was like, what? How did you know? Sort of the sharpness of it.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I'm not saying it was the right thing. It was a plan. That was my plan.

[Craig Robinson]

But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's what I think. We were confused because it sounded like you were. You did to them what you did to.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay, well, that.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But that's. You know, it's not like a friendship is. There's always something to dig into.

[Craig Robinson]

But I find that in my friends.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

We always go in deep.

[Issa Rae]

There's always something because we talk about everything and there's. There's just. There are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to like, oh, this happened to me. And this is how I was affected by it. And there's just. And nothing is off limits. And that's the beauty of it, is just you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You were this safe space. Or. And I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this to Eva, and Eva was like, hit or miss.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm not even sure.

[Issa Rae]

I don't even know if I like you, girl. I think you're cool, but, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we good or not? And now someone. Something happened that's tragic. And I think you're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. And I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend? Right? I mean, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time if she does have those. And, you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship, and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey, 100%, yes, this is what happened.

[Issa Rae]

Am I messing up here?

[Craig Robinson]

Am I. Did I wrong? Right? And the crew would be. They would dissect it. They would be, imo, in real time, you know, and I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit. You know, think a little bit. Because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then end their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation. She probably would check herself to say, you're right, I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent. And I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to the. To her friend.

[Issa Rae]

I have to say that I'm also guilty because part of this also triggered me in a way, because I am guilty of again, like you said, I am not a check in every day type of person. I'm a very much. When I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted, but you just have to tell me. But it's not a natural instinct. And so with this, I understand, like, Eva being like, this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I can't. I'm not going to be the same type of giving friend that you are to me. But I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there. And so that is. That would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think I think about you. But I might not text you to be like, hey, I just wanna make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the. I'm not considerate. Yeah, I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

That's a mispronouncement there.

[Issa Rae]

It's true. And it's like one of my biggest flaws because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you but not tell you that I'm thinking about you. Right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

And that's fair.

[Craig Robinson]

But that's also part of friendship, right? Because, you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend. And the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something, you know, or she's busy, or, you know, and that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself. Flaws and all the inconsiderate or the per, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not gonna be the one to call. Cause she just doesn't do that. You know, I'm not a great. You know, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more for same. Like I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And. And that was because of eight years also. I mean, you, you know, it's hard. It was hard to reach me for, for eight years without a whole lot of goings on in Order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume I don't want to bother you. Yeah, same, you know, because I'm not gonna bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff, and I'm like, you didn't tell me. Yeah, I didn't want to bother you. And I. So that means that I. I often have to bend over even more completely to. To check in. So people know that when things are tough, do not not call me.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

Because I'm going to get mad.

[Issa Rae]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

It's like, now I'm mad at you for that.

[Issa Rae]

That happened like 50 years ago.

[Craig Robinson]

Right. But you were gonna say something before I cut you off.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

No, no, no, that was great. I appreciate that. And I also appreciate. Now, you see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't.

[Craig Robinson]

It wouldn't have blasted, you know, Capricorns. We get mad, but it doesn't.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You don't know.

[Issa Rae]

You're not mad. Absolutely not.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah. No, you don't.

[Issa Rae]

Can I ask you a question about the Chair of Angst? Yes. Did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting space like you were getting us?

[Craig Robinson]

Was it an inquiry?

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, it was.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

It was all of the above. Because sometimes the person who was in the Chair of Angst just needed to vent. And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on, or is there anything we can do or what predicated this? And it was just. It was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session, but it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private that I wasn't ready to share with the whole world.

[Issa Rae]

That's dope. But y'all had to make a whole.

[Craig Robinson]

Construct with cigars and margaritas and whatnot.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

That's how it's.

[Issa Rae]

You out to share. Ex. No more.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

No more questions. No more questions.

[Issa Rae]

No more questions. No more problems. That's it.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me, your sister. We. We don't let it go.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

They don't let it go. You are not a chair.

[Craig Robinson]

Because now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened at that.

[Issa Rae]

What happened? Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

So not only do I have a sister. I have a wife, and. Which has helped me communicate.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Because I say all the time, our relationship. Relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28. I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general, because I get it. I get it. There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk, but I have to be intentional about. She needs this.

[Craig Robinson]

With my friends.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

If I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, it's. We never get there like that.

[Issa Rae]

So a friend has never disappointed you because you don't have expectations of them?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

No. Friends have disappointed, but it doesn't injure me as deeply. And if your next question is, do I approach him and say, hey, you really disappointed me? I have. And I think that's why we keep our friendship.

[Issa Rae]

And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends where they've approached you and said, hey, this is. You just show up in this way, and I'm upset.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I have not.

[Issa Rae]

Have you. Have you.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

At the risk of sounding cocky, I have not.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, cause you're a good friend. I keep hitting this drop. Cause you're a good friend.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I hope that I am.

[Issa Rae]

You seem like you're a good friend.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But you have a sister.

[Issa Rae]

You have to be a.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But it doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface.

[Issa Rae]

But I think you allow people to just be comfortable with you, and I think that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way. But if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Like, keep them around. You'll never be like, hey, I kind of don't like hanging around. You kind of get on my nerves.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Yeah. So this is a really good question. And I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult, you know, after a certain period. I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends, and they're gonna be my friends. And new people that I meet that I haven't known for a long time who are friends. The shift to the right. And they don't make the shift to the right. We just don't communicate as much.

[Craig Robinson]

I call that the slow ghost.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

She calls it the slow ghost.

[Craig Robinson]

It's not enough to have a conversation with, because do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy. You just Sort of just let it. Let it die a natural, quiet death.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Which brings me to another that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted.

[Issa Rae]

Me neither.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I don't mind that.

[Issa Rae]

If it didn't matter.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

If it didn't matter, it didn't matter. But let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost. And then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'm gonna be in town. Wanna go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure. And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate. That is how we operate. Just look at the guys in here, all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying. Wait a minute.

[Craig Robinson]

Women don't do that.

[Issa Rae]

No, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I got too many people I mess with. Because there's nothing worse than, like, having. Sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about. And then you have to make plans together if the slogo allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything. And it's. It's fine.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Ouch.

[Issa Rae]

But even with your friends. I'm sorry. Your friends that you grew up with, inevitably, you guys, like, you. You grow up, you become who you're supposed to be. Right? There are no friends that you've grown up with that you have, where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally, or they, you know, don't necessarily. We don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that. And that thought has never crossed your mind?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

The guys who, like, say, grammar school, people who were my friends, I'm still.

[Issa Rae]

In touch with, and they've never. Since grammar school.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Since. Since high school. First day of high school.

[Issa Rae]

Okay, okay. But your friends that you holding out your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

No, we fought. Yeah, but it's not an emotional fight.

[Craig Robinson]

There's no. I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, they're just. There's not a lot going on.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

There's no emotional fight you're talking about. I thought you were talking about, like, a fight, like, no.

[Issa Rae]

And that's how, like, guys, to me, y'all will be like. Y'all will physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta. That's it. We're good for life.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Let's go have a beer.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. And no. If I physically fight one of my female friends, it's over.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, you all don't physically fight.

[Issa Rae]

No, but in.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But I get it. I get it.

[Issa Rae]

But the emotional fights allow you to get closer or, you know, decide this isn't the right.

[Craig Robinson]

I just think it goes back to the level, you know. And again, this isn't true for everyone. But even just watching my brother, it's like, you know, your friends sort of hover around the surface and it's real, meaningful friendships. But. But they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Until there is a crisis, then we go deep.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You go straight to death, you know. But I.

[Craig Robinson]

Because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. It's gotta be like a thing that.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Could be something going on with their kids or it could be a divorce or it could be, you know, a car accident.

[Issa Rae]

It could be something super dire y a crisis.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

But it's.

[Craig Robinson]

And a crisis for women is just like every day.

[Issa Rae]

Don't do it like that.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, look, I get.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Oh, man, I'm gonna get it when I get home.

[Craig Robinson]

Example. Because my husband doesn't fully understand it and he's got great friends, friends that he has since high school. I know his friends. Meaningful. But when I'm. When a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you gotta stay for two days because it's going to take us.

[Issa Rae]

So much time to catch up, to check up.

[Craig Robinson]

Right? And we're not planning anything. We are going to sit right here and we will be here. Too many rules. I've got. No, but it's not even a rule. It's too many rules. This is kicking it and this is what it's going to take.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You got to stay for two days.

[Craig Robinson]

I'll have one of my good girlfriends over spending the night. Friends with Barack.

[Issa Rae]

Heaven.

[Craig Robinson]

Love all that. We're. We sit on a couch, we trans. There's something in front of us. Tea crackers, move to wine, you know. But we get up at 10am and we start the check in.

[Issa Rae]

That sounds beautiful.

[Craig Robinson]

It begins with, first of all, girl, how you, you know, tell me about you now. All right, now that's an hour just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in. Right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work and tell me about. Because we know all about it. Remember that HR person you were and let go. What happened with that girl, she's still there. Oh, man. What. What did she do next? And then you gotta give an example of what she did. Now. Now it's lunchtime, right on. On day one. Now, Barack has come in, he's come out, and he's like, y'all still talking? He'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys?

[Issa Rae]

He's gonna get something. You contributed nothing. You just interrupted the time, you know?

[Craig Robinson]

And then it. It's 3:00, and he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend. We each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, my gosh. I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my.

[Craig Robinson]

48 hours. It's 48 hours. Because each kid has, you know, we know the issues and the things we've. You know. Now we're at dinner on day one, right? So this is what I'm saying. And my husband is like, how. What are you all talking about all day? And it's like, we're not. We're just scratching the surface.

[Issa Rae]

And do you know that it's so. Oh, my. It feels so good. After they leave, it's just like. There's no better feeling than like, I just got. Ugh. I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything I've been holding. I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it.

[Craig Robinson]

I can't tell.

[Issa Rae]

Like, there's friendship even in my groups. There's my friends who, if I wanna be mad at someone and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her. Cause she's never gonna. She's never gonna tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl. Okay, who we. She's next, you know? And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need to know the truth. Yes. I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it. And they're gonna give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just, like, gonna listen. And I could grab. But everybody has a function in some way, and they're just. It's just. It's cathartic. It's so. It's so beautiful. And that's why I'm just.

[Craig Robinson]

And the flip side of my husband, right? Cause he golfs. And golfing takes as long as the first session of our. You know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. I was like, I will have heard, like. Like, somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, what?

[Issa Rae]

You were golfing all day and it never came up.

[Craig Robinson]

And it never came up. You never asked about our godson, for example. You're with his father. How is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what were you all doing sitting in a cart, talking about. You know? And I'm like, literally nothing. You have no information. And that's the difference, because you be with each other all day, looking directly away from each other at a ball. Right. Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned. We are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off. Comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, their tears. It's like. And that. That can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of intimacy. Intimacy.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I maintain.

[Craig Robinson]

Yes.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

That the chair of angst with me, Jimmy, and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.

[Issa Rae]

Cause you're also not. It also has to be around a crisis. Right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You know, it does. It takes a crisis to get it going.

[Issa Rae]

This is also why women live longer, I think, than men. Because we're getting a lot of that.

[Craig Robinson]

Right.

[Issa Rae]

And not to take it there, but.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

In here, we do.

[Craig Robinson]

Like, the crisis would require an emergency session.

[Issa Rae]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Robinson]

Like, somebody's on a train.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. Flying.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, there's. There's movement. And you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah. I was like, we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis.

[Issa Rae]

My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house, bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is. Took off work.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

That's a script. That is something that you could write on television.

[Issa Rae]

Plan. And doing a text, like, you know, she's not gonna be good. Like, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

[Craig Robinson]

Right, right.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You know what's so horrible about that is guys would be like, damn. Yeah, that's it.

[Craig Robinson]

Not a crisis. Obviously not a crisis. Sorry.

[Issa Rae]

Send a dog.

[Craig Robinson]

I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

What?

[Issa Rae]

Where'd you get a dog?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Okay, we are bad. That is.

[Issa Rae]

One of our friends was talking about how guys don't know how to express a cat. Guys in text don't know how to express emotions and will use emojis like the wrong. Like, ah, y'all. I lost my aunt. Dang. Fire emoji. Ghost emoji. Just.

[Craig Robinson]

That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings. I don't know what they are.

[Issa Rae]

But I'm six trying to give you.

[Craig Robinson]

Social, so I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. Yeah. So why do we have emotion OGs. They. They're literal. It's like, hot dog. I'm hungry.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I want lunch. Fire is like, I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issues serious.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay. Yeah, we forgot about Eva.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

No, we almost.

[Issa Rae]

She lost a friend.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, is it possible to set boundaries? For sure in a friendship that's unbalanced.

[Issa Rae]

That's how I'm like, you have to be honest about like, hey, girl. Like, I'm. I have a lot on my plate and I'm. That's hard to say.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

Because I was. Yeah, I was gonna say like, I just wanna be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey. Cause I have been. I feel like I give you more energy than I have just been. Like, I've blamed it on work. I've blamed it on I'm busy. But I haven't said I don't wanna devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse. And they can choose to. To pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me. Because you. You didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher tier friends that like, do get your time and energy that you do consider those people. Or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. And that's a whole different situation. But I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you invested in you. That. That is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them.

[Craig Robinson]

So, yeah, it's fair to Set boundaries. But I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you want to be? How do you want to show up? You know, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think, think both of us, probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want. And, you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time because we're pouring that energy out. Like I'm. I understand you before I understand me.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

You know.

[Issa Rae]

Yes, yes.

[Craig Robinson]

And it's. That's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without opening themselves up, because that's hard, you know, and maybe what I would say to Eva is maybe it's time for her to, just as she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship and how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.

[Issa Rae]

And make some friends with some guys.

[Craig Robinson]

Right. Or, you know, be okay, then understand that there will be times that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not. You hurt my feelings and it's over. Right. And not take it to heart if that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you gotta take stock about how you wanna. How you need to show up for people.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

And what's an example of that? How showing up is that just. I hear communication, I get that.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

But understanding who your friend is and what they need, okay, like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship, sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner. But you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta, you know, you're gonna have to give people what they need at some point to get what you need. It's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management? Is it, you know, brutal honesty?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Is it acts of service?

[Craig Robinson]

Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I value people's honest emotional vulnerability. That means a lot to me.

[Issa Rae]

But even hearing you say this, there's. You also have to have the recognition that maybe you're also not compatible, because some of it. Some. Some friendships, the most beautiful friendships, are just instinctive. They're instinctual. Like you.

[Craig Robinson]

You don't have to.

[Issa Rae]

You don't have to try. You. You are the yin to the yang. You're. You fit in like puzzle pieces. And then there. There, you know, when there are missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're. You're offending. And this feels like very much like Eva had to try too hard to.

[Craig Robinson]

Be something she wasn't, to be something.

[Issa Rae]

That she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself. But the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the worst friendships I've had that have. I've silently ghosted her. That have silently ghosted me, it just. It was hard to manage. Like, there were just. There was always something, and it felt uncomfortable. So, yeah, being honest with yourself about that is crucial.

[Craig Robinson]

And how old is Eva again?

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, I was wondering that too.

[Unknown Female Speaker]

32.

[Craig Robinson]

32.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Issa Rae]

This is when people start falling off. Girl, your 30s is like when it whittles down to who's gonna be there. And does she have kids?

[Unknown Female Speaker]

No.

[Craig Robinson]

And it's gonna whittle even more, you know, if she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. And I think that's also what I would say to. It's like, this is life.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, and like she said in her letter, friends aren't family. You know, and sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. You know, friends will. There. There are seasons for friends, and who knows, in their 40s or 50s, they may reconnect.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You know, so this is perfect because I'm thinking back to Eva. One of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship if you want it to be another way based. I'm learning from you all, if I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I gotta go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship. And if they can't provide it, then we gotta think about it ending well.

[Craig Robinson]

And that's what her friend essentially did.

[Issa Rae]

You know, but her friend did during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, hey, beforehand. I feel like this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last straw. Like, my relative died, you didn't show up. This has been unbalanced. And maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said.

[Craig Robinson]

She said, right, she did.

[Issa Rae]

All of a sudden, you ain't shit.

[Craig Robinson]

You're right.

[Issa Rae]

I realized that. And that's just. That's the way the cookie crumbles. I wonder if Eva also fought for it.

[Craig Robinson]

Doesn't it sounds like she's in contemplation about it, about fighting for it or letting it go. It sounds. It feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it. But I don't think we have that.

[Issa Rae]

Don't you guys do follow, you know, Dang, I need to know.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Well, let's. Let's figure out a couple, three things that we can tell Eva and then maybe we could figure out a follow up with her.

[Issa Rae]

Well, one of the things I think you mentioned it is if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey guys, how don't I am? I take it to your council, take it to your counsel. What are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad friend and like, use that to become a better friend?

[Craig Robinson]

I completely agree with that. And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32. This is how it goes. You know, people come, people go. You know, even hurts can be healed because, you know, who knows where you'll be when you're 50? You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows. And in the meantime, what I would tell her is use this as an opportunity, since you're bothered by it, to figure out how you can grow.

[Issa Rae]

And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response. If you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology. Say where you're coming from and let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that you. I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. The door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again. But feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this off. Like, if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.

[Craig Robinson]

I like that.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I like that, too. But you know what I like even more is when Issa said, just get a guy friend.

[Issa Rae]

Honestly, you want a low maintenance relationship?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You want a low maintenance relationship, get a guy friend.

[Issa Rae]

Get a guy friend.

[Craig Robinson]

Maintenance. And don't worry, you don't have to even know if he has a dog.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Eva, we really care about you.

[Issa Rae]

No, for real.

[Craig Robinson]

You'll be good girl. You'll be all right. This is how, as you said, Issa, the cookie crumbles. Life is like this. But this has been fun.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. This is so fun. What's the next letter?

[Unknown Male Speaker]

Thank you so much. Yeah. Come on, let's go. Thank you so much.

[Issa Rae]

Thank you, guys.

[Michelle Obama]

That was a preview of imo, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcast.