Monkey Sister - Tooth & Claw

Summary

Snap Judgment: "Monkey Sister" (Tooth & Claw)

Release Date: January 22, 2026
Podcast: Snap Judgment (with PRX)
Host: Glynn Washington
Featured Voices: Hannah Freeman, Allison Pascoe, Tim Snyder

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Episode Overview

This episode of Snap Judgment’s “Tooth & Claw” series explores the story of Hannah Freeman, who grew up in upstate New York with a capuchin monkey named Amelia that her mother raised as her first child. Through intimate interviews and vivid storytelling, the episode unpacks the unique dynamic of treating an animal as a family member, how social hierarchies and sibling rivalry translated into this cross-species relationship, and what it means to grow up as "the girl with the monkey sister." Not only is it a family story, but also a meditation on identity, belonging, and the blurring lines between pet, sibling, and self.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Pets, Family, and the Nature of Sibling Rivalry

• Glynn Washington opens with humor about the limits of "family" when it comes to pets. (03:29)
• Memorable Quote:
  • "Personally, I don't believe in pets you can call the exterminator on." – Glynn Washington [03:31]

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2. Amelia's Origin: How a Monkey Became a Family Member

• Allison Pascoe (Hannah’s mom), a zoologist and vet tech, rescued Amelia after the capuchin monkey was seized from an Egyptian ship.

• Amelia’s background: likely a market performer, arrived malnourished, partial to coins and cigarettes.

• Allison nursed her back to health, forming an intense human-animal bond that led her to adopt Amelia rather than place her in a sanctuary.

• Notable Quotes:

  • "She was very much like a baby. I took her everywhere with me... So when I finally had Hannah, it wasn't that much different." – Allison Pascoe [07:36]
  • "My sister’s name was Amelia. But the strange thing about my sister is that she was not a human. She was a monkey." – Hannah Freeman [04:23]

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3. Childhood: Monkey as Playmate, Family, and Celebrity

• Hannah describes Amelia as both a sibling and a playmate, sharing meals, games, and occasional chaos, much to the confusion of outsiders.

• Amelia’s fame:

  • Starred in George Romero’s film "Monkey Shines".
  • Appeared on David Letterman and funded the family’s house through her movie earnings.
  • Became a local celebrity, often overshadowing Hannah socially.

• Notable Moments:

  • "Amelia would eat spaghetti with her feet, and everyone would lose their mind... but I’d get a good grade and it was just 'OK, great job.'" – Hannah Freeman [12:02]
  • "She literally ate my homework. And I had to go to the school psychologist, because when I said that, the teacher didn’t know I was telling the truth." – Hannah Freeman [09:15]

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4. Adolescence: Rivalry Intensifies, Monkey Rules the House

• As Hannah hits puberty, Amelia’s behavior shifts. Their interactions grow adversarial:

  • Amelia steals food and personal items, plays tricks, and seems to target Hannah specifically (but not her brother).
  • Allison describes this as typical primate social hierarchy: Amelia felt threatened by Hannah’s emerging adulthood, setting off a battle for “alpha-female” status in the family.

• Memorable Scenes and Quotes:

  • "She would hide behind darkened doorways and wait for me to come through, and then she would jump out and bite my Achilles tendon and run away and laugh. It was like living with a goblin." – Hannah Freeman [14:30]
  • "Her whole social system is based on a series of hierarchies. That's how it works in the primate world... I was the alpha woman, and she wanted to be number two." – Allison Pascoe [14:56]

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5. Parental Guidance and Resentment

• Hannah feels unsupported as Allison refuses to intervene:

  • Allison advises Hannah to confront the monkey directly and establish dominance, a tactic Hannah is reluctant and frightened to attempt.
  • The unresolved hierarchy leads to resentment and strained mother-daughter relations.

• Key Quotes:

  • "The frustrating thing... my mom would say, 'I can’t. She won’t respect you. You have to do it yourself, or she’s never going to stop.'" – Hannah Freeman [16:26]
  • "If you’re not going to restrain her, then there’s nothing I can do for you." – Allison Pascoe [16:41]

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6. The Climax: Monkey vs. Teenage Love

• In high school, the novelty of a monkey at home becomes embarrassing.
• Hannah recounts her first romantic experience derailed by Amelia, who bursts into the room during her attempt to lose her virginity, causes chaos, sets mosquito netting on fire, and then “drops the mic.”
• Standout Storytelling:
  • "My boyfriend covers his junk with a pillow because there's a raging monkey running around the room… She has herself tangled now… the mosquito netting bursts into flames. And now she's running, and she's like a comet trailing this fire behind her." – Hannah Freeman [32:01]
  • "Amelia jumps on the bed. She takes a shit, like she's dropping the mic, and then she hoots a little triumphantly, and she just strolls on out." – Hannah Freeman [32:33]

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7. Endings and Complicated Grief

• Hannah leaves for LA; Amelia ages and passes away after 33 years with the family.
• The family holds a lavish, humorous, and loving funeral for Amelia, complete with a portrait, lilacs, and bananas as Viking oars.
• Hannah describes her feelings as a mix of sadness, relief, and nostalgia.
• Notable Quotes:
  • "She lived probably what would have been to 90s in human age. But I have to say that when she passed, I was ready, you know, it was time for her to go. And I'd also had her for 33 years. She was a huge part of my..." – Allison Pascoe [35:23]
  • "Part of me thinks that in some weird way beyond the grave, that this was... maybe this was her giving me a message... She did make good in the end… even beyond the grave, that old bitch is laughing. And she had the last laugh." – Hannah Freeman [38:00]

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Timestamps for Key Moments

| Time | Segment/Event | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------| | 04:23 | Introduction of Amelia as Hannah’s “sister” | | 05:51 | Allison explains how she adopted Amelia | | 09:15 | "She literally ate my homework" | | 12:02 | On Amelia overshadowing Hannah socially | | 14:56 | Amelia's social dominance and hierarchy | | 17:01 | Allison and Hannah debate confronting Amelia | | 32:01 | Amelia interrupts Hannah’s attempt at sex | | 35:03 | Amelia’s final days and passing | | 36:10 | The open-casket monkey funeral | | 38:00 | Hannah finds closure and a new beginning |

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Notable Quotes

• "My sister really was a monkey. I didn’t think of her as a pet. She was a member of the family." – Hannah Freeman [09:15]
• "If she thought that she could intimidate you, she would. Her whole social system is based on a series of hierarchies." – Allison Pascoe [14:56]
• "It was like living with a goblin." – Hannah Freeman [14:30]
• "Amelia jumps on the bed. She takes a shit, like she's dropping the mic, and then she hoots a little triumphantly, and she just strolls on out." – Hannah Freeman [32:33]
• "Even beyond the grave, that old bitch is laughing. And she had the last laugh. And I thought that I had outlived her and outlasted her. And she's like, I bought the house and I got you your husband. Ha ha ha." – Hannah Freeman [38:00]

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Overall Tone and Reflections

The episode is raw, funny, and bittersweet, blending the absurdities of growing up with a monkey as a sister with deep questions about belonging and competition within families. Hannah’s storytelling is self-aware, oscillating between laughter and pain, while her mother’s practical, sometimes ruthless, zoologist’s perspective frames this unusual dynamic as both animal behavior and family idiosyncrasy. The result is a uniquely Snap Judgment meditation on how “family” is defined by experience, not only biology.

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Useful for New Listeners

• Anyone can jump in and understand the emotional and cultural terrain covered in “Monkey Sister” without knowing the full Snap Judgment canon.
• The story is universal in its exploration of sibling rivalry, parental expectations, acceptance, and identity—albeit viewed through a wildly unconventional lens.

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For more stories on animals, family, and what makes us human, explore Snap Judgment’s "Tooth & Claw" series or Hannah Freeman’s memoir, "Everything Sucks."

Transcript

[Glenn Washington]

SNAP Studios.

[Hannah Freeman]

Hi, I'm Saadia Khan, founder of Immigrantly Media, host of the Immigrantly podcast, social commentator, entrepreneur, and the person desperately trying to bring nuance back to immigrant identity. Five years and I've talked to over 300 guests from Grammy winner Ruja Aftab and comedian hari Kanubalu to Dr. Laurie Santos and NYC Mayor Sahram Hamzani to basically, if they are interesting, curious or slightly chaotic, they've probably been on the show. We dive into identity, belonging, culture, the messy, funny, complicated stuff that makes us human. And yes, the Guardian, CNN and Human Storyboard have all shown us love. New episodes drop every Tuesday, so grab your chai and your curiosity. This is Immigrantly, where we rewrite the immigrant narrative one story at a time.

[Glenn Washington]

Stamp Judgment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. It's a new year and if you're like me, wellness goals are front and center. My partner in getting through though is Whole Foods Market because they featured an abundance of high quality multivitamins and probiotics and it's right next to smart meal shortcuts. To stay motivated. I can keep good habits by cooking homemade meals featuring sustainable wild caught sockeye salmon and other lean proteins. Even better, Whole Foods Market selection of non alcoholic beverages makes dry January a breeze. Shop all things wellness at Whole Foods Market. I had a friend and we planned to go to dinner. I make the reservations, I wear a nice jacket. I knock on the door and she answers teary eyed. She says she's so, so, so sorry but you can't go out as planned. Oh no. What's the matter? Everything all right? Well, she says, snookums is sad. Snookums? Snookums, my rat. I don't know, he's just having attachment issues right now. I don't think it's fair to leave him here alone. I say, oh, you know, I understand. I do. You know, with the rats and such.

[Allison Pascoe]

Really?

[Glenn Washington]

Sure, absolutely. But I should, you know, should probably get going right away. Right away. Quick. Oh, you don't have to. We could. Oh no, no, no. I think I do. I hope snookums and y', all, y' all feel better, but. And with the rapid steps, I flee my friends later at the bar, howl in laughter, call me terrible names I don't know. I admit it's on me. It is. But I kind of think, like, I don't even have a whole lot of rules. I don't truly. I just. I don't know. I don't do rats. Am I a speciesist?

[Allison Pascoe]

Probably.

[Glenn Washington]

I think I would understand a dog or even a cat. God forbid. They're part of the family. Sure, and accommodations must be made. But what if your other family member isn't a rat? Exactly. But still has the gall to think that mom and dad like her best. Today in Snap Judgment's Tooth and Claw series, we proudly present Monkey Sister. My name is Glenn Washington. Personally, I don't believe in pets. You can call the exterminator on when you're listening to Snap Judgment.

[Tim Snyder]

Snap.

[Glenn Washington]

Now, there's an old saying you sometimes see on Hallmark cars and coffee mugs. It says sisters are like different flowers from the same garden. Lovely. But things might have been a little bit different at the Freedman home in upstate New York where the firstborn, Hannah. She was still trying to figure out her place in the family pecking order. Step Judgment.

[Hannah Freeman]

Amelia knew how much I loved peanut butter. And sometimes she would run her fingers through it in front of me and she would just make eye contact with me as her little paw claw was running its way through the peanut butter. And then she would lick it off of her fingers one by one as she was making deep eye contact with me. And I would just shiver, it was so gross to me. And I would say, mom, please can I have my own special peanut butter? Can we hide it? Can we keep it in a different cabinet? And my mom would say, well, she likes peanut butter, too. So my sister's name was Amelia. But the strange thing about my sister is that she was not a human. She was a monkey. She was a capuchin monkey. She's like the monkey on Friends or the monkey from Indiana Jones. She has dark brown fur and she has such an expressive face. She really is like a little mini human. And she probably weighed about 7 pounds. I'd say about the size of a house cat. I was the first born human, but my mom had this monkey who preceded me.

[Allison Pascoe]

I had had Amelia six years before I had a baby. I'm a zoologist and I've worked with many different types of animals, training them. I was a veterinary technician at the time as well. I was working in a laboratory looking at the well being of the animals that were there. And Fish and Wildlife called us. They had a capuchin monkey that had been brought in on a merchant marine ship from Egypt that they didn't know what to do with. She was very into coins and. And cigarettes, and that's usually a mark that the animals were used in market squares to entertain people. She was very malnourished, and she was basically really scared of people. And then the bond was very, very close. When she learned to trust me, I started taking her home on the weekends, and then I started taking her home all the time. And then when I decided to leave the program, I. I just decided to take her. She would have a much better life with me than in the program. So basically, I just brazenly took her. When I got her, she had many teeth taken out by her previous owners, and that was another reason I was able to keep her. And that was another reason that she did not go into a sanctuary, which is usually the best place for a monkey to go. She was so sick, I thought she was just going to pass the first year that I got her. But when I started her on medication, she became stronger and she became a really solid monkey. I realized that she's around for a while.

[Hannah Freeman]

Did she feel like a first child?

[Allison Pascoe]

Yes, she was very much like a baby. I took her everywhere with me. I was always aware of where she was. There was a lot of messes to clean up. So when I finally had Hannah, it wasn't that much different.

[Hannah Freeman]

Was your husband reluctant at all about having Amelia with a baby?

[Allison Pascoe]

Oh, no, not at all. She was so sweet with babies and with children.

[Tim Snyder]

No qualms at all because she had already proven herself to be very discerning about infants and was always super gentle with them and attentive. So, yeah, there were no real concerns at all.

[Allison Pascoe]

She would sit with her in the crib. The two of them were wonderful together. They really, really enjoyed each other a lot.

[Hannah Freeman]

She would groom my hair, and she taught me how to pick things up with my feet.

[Allison Pascoe]

They got fed at the same time, and they played with the same toys.

[Hannah Freeman]

I felt like I had this incredible playmate because we would make a mess together. We would eat a bunch of oatmeal and throw it all over the table. We would. You could kind of wrestle with her and throw across the room, and she would rush back, and she's so athletic, so she could climb to the top of a banister in one second and leap around the house, and it was so fun, and I never felt unsafe around her. It was great growing up with this monkey.

[Allison Pascoe]

Hannah really couched it as being a sibling. I'd never really thought of it in terms of. Terms of a sibling. That's Hannah's take on it.

[Hannah Freeman]

She literally ate my homework. And I had to go to the school psychologist, because when I said that, the teacher didn't know that I was telling the truth. And I was so frustrated that they didn't believe me, that I started crying and screaming that they had to believe me. My monkey sister was real. My sister really was a monkey. I didn't think of her as a pet. She was a member of the family.

[Tim Snyder]

She just insinuated herself into our household. She was just like a little hairy kid.

[Hannah Freeman]

At first. In elementary school, it was so cool to have a monkey as a sister. Everyone's dream is to play with a monkey. So people would want to come over to my house, and I would have all my toys set up and dolls and things that I wanted to play games and puzzles. And nobody gave a shit about any of that because there's a monkey.

[Allison Pascoe]

She was very jealous of the monkey sometimes because a lot of people wanted to come over and see the monkey and not hang out and play in her room.

[Hannah Freeman]

The minute they knew that I had a monkey as a sister, that's all they wanted to know about. Where did she come from? What is her name? What is she like? What does she eat? Does she poop and throw it at people?

[Allison Pascoe]

Amelia was somewhat of a celebrity around the neighborhood, and she had been in a movie called Monkeyshines.

[Glenn Washington]

Monkey Shines An Experiment in Fear.

[Hannah Freeman]

So my mom was part of this monkey entertainment enterprise, and there was a movie called Monkeyshines directed by George Romero. They actually came to my mom and asked if she could help advise them on how to be able to do some of these shots.

[Allison Pascoe]

So I said, I'll do it. Someone's gonna do it. I know how to do it, and I'll make sure that it's done humanely.

[Glenn Washington]

So you train monkeys, an animal trained to follow commands.

[Hannah Freeman]

So who could possibly do all the complex tricks that are required for this role? Amelia was so talented. She could do all these things. She could, like, do a Rubik's Cube, and this monkey could do everything that they could imagine and more. She was killing it, and it was exactly what they wanted.

[Glenn Washington]

She's unbelievable.

[Tim Snyder]

She's like a miniature person.

[Hannah Freeman]

The money from the movie provided the down payment for our house. So it was really the house that.

[Allison Pascoe]

Amelia bought, and she'd been on television from David Letterman.

[Tim Snyder]

What kind of monkey is Amelia?

[Allison Pascoe]

She's a capuchin monkey.

[Glenn Washington]

Capuchin monkeys.

[Hannah Freeman]

These I know a little bit about.

[Tim Snyder]

They're very, very intelligent, aren't they?

[Hannah Freeman]

Yeah.

[Tim Snyder]

And they can be trained to do amazing things, as we've already witnessed.

[Allison Pascoe]

And Amelia was famous for a while.

[Hannah Freeman]

Things started to shift when I realized how popular Amelia was and also how little she had to do to garner so much attention. I would get a good grade on my spelling report. Okay, great job. But Amelia would eat spaghetti with her feet, and everyone would lose their mind with how amazing and hilarious it was. And, like, let's see it again. Please, please, please, let's take pictures. And I was excited and, like, proud that my family was so different and unique and strange. But also, sometimes you just want to be normal and be known for the special things about you and not that you have this weird sister. When things really got bad is when I went through puberty kind of overnight. It became really adversarial, and it started really subtly. So she would steal food off of my plate and I would sort of laugh, but that was weird. She didn't used to do that. Or she would start stealing things from my bag or she would swipe at my hair.

[Allison Pascoe]

She just started being really mischievous around Hannah.

[Hannah Freeman]

At first it felt not that personal. And, you know, she's a monkey, so she would do things like that every now and then just to get a kick. She really liked teasing people.

[Allison Pascoe]

She wouldn't open Hannah's door. She would bang it open and go running in. Hannah would go, the monkey. Get her out of my room. She's in my room. And I'd say, just close the door.

[Hannah Freeman]

She knew my favorite kind of lipstick that I got from Sephora that I saved up for, and I would come home and her mouth would be covered in red goo and. And I just knew that she had gotten into my purse and she had eaten it all.

[Allison Pascoe]

She was touching something that Hannah didn't want her to have. When Hannah was a child, Hannah could take it away from her. But when Hannah was older, Amelia would scream at her if she tried to take it away.

[Hannah Freeman]

I had this perfect slammer holographic pog. I knew that she knew that I loved it. And I walked in and she was slowly peeling it off, and she slowly continued to peel it as she made eye contact with me. And then I. I watched as she put it on the floor and then she peed on it.

[Allison Pascoe]

She was like, you know, a bad five year old. So it was a sibling relationship where the two of them would antagonize each other. So I was constantly separating them, sending them both to their room.

[Hannah Freeman]

I kind of just tried to Avoid her, which was hard because she was very clever. She would wait until I was most vulnerable. Like, she would wait until I was on the toilet, and she would leap out from behind it where she had been hiding, lurking in wait. She would hide behind darkened doorways and wait for me to come through, and then she would jump out and bite my Achilles tendon and run away and laugh. It was like living with a goblin.

[Allison Pascoe]

If she thought that she could intimidate you, she would. Her whole social system is based on a series of hierarchies. That's how it works in the primate world. And so men, she didn't have any problem with. But women, I was number one. I was the alpha woman, and she wanted to be number two. So she all of a sudden saw Hannah as a challenge as Hannah was getting older, and she saw her taking her place as number two in the female hierarchy in the house.

[Hannah Freeman]

And it just wasn't fair because I have a younger brother, and she never did this to my brother because of his gender.

[Allison Pascoe]

She was never aggressive towards a man, ever, and she just accepted him as a male in the troupe.

[Tim Snyder]

She was totally submissive to most males, and I was just, you know, happy that I was not the subject of that testing.

[Hannah Freeman]

Was there ever a point that you expected this hierarchy issue to come into play with Hannah and Amelia?

[Allison Pascoe]

I was not prepared for it. I didn't know that much about capuchin behavior at the time. And she was great with Hannah all through childhood until Hannah was about 13. And she must have, you know, whatever monkey sensed. She sensed that she was starting to, you know, become an adult. Hannah did not stand her ground because she was a little intimidated. And I think she was really surprised.

[Hannah Freeman]

The frustrating thing to me is I'd be like, mom, tell her not to do that, please. And my mom would say, I can't. She won't respect you. You have to do. You have to challenge her yourself, or she's never going to stop.

[Allison Pascoe]

Yeah, it's not like a dog. That's why I would throw my hands up, and I was like, well, Hannah, if you're not gonna. If you're not gonna restrain her, then there's nothing I can do for you.

[Hannah Freeman]

And I do think that she was right, because every now and then my mom would say, like, don't do that, or, why would you do that? And Amelia would look at me like, really? You had to go get your mommy to come yell at me?

[Allison Pascoe]

I would lose my patience sometimes, and I would say, hannah, you just have to grab her by the Shoulders and bring her up to you.

[Hannah Freeman]

My mom would coach me and she would be like, okay, just when she comes, you're going to look her in the eye. You can't break eye contact. If she scratches you, it doesn't matter. You just have to make sure that you hold eye contact longer than she does. And then once she breaks eye contact, then you know that you have won the encounter, that you've come out on top.

[Allison Pascoe]

She was little. She was six pounds, so it wasn't hard.

[Hannah Freeman]

But do you think Hannah at her age should have been able to do it?

[Allison Pascoe]

Absolutely. I kept telling her to, and I kept saying, this is what you do. And she wouldn't do it. She just never really wanted to go face to face with her.

[Hannah Freeman]

I really did try, and I would talk myself into it. I would try to hype myself up, like, okay, next time she attacks me, I'm just gonna go for it. I'm just gonna do it. It doesn't matter if she's scratching me. I'm just gonna be brave and. And I could never do it. Did you ever feel like it was unfair for Hannah to have to go through this?

[Allison Pascoe]

Oh, God, no. Definitely was not unfair at all. I think Hannah had a lot to do with the fact that they never were on equal level.

[Hannah Freeman]

It felt confusing because I think I blamed myself for being treated this way. So I definitely felt resentment and confusion and a little bit of self judgment because what's wrong with me that I can't top this monkey?

[Allison Pascoe]

I guess I wasn't as reactive to Hannah as I should have been when the monkey was annoying to her because I felt that Hannah should have taken care of it herself. So that probably caused some tension between the two of us. But it's true, I could not intervene in their relationship.

[Hannah Freeman]

I was angry at my mom when I felt like she chose Amelia over me. I do feel like sometimes they were on their own team and I was the opposing team.

[Allison Pascoe]

I also just, you know, I enjoyed being with her. She just couldn't be trusted, that's all. Not Hannah, but the monkey.

[Hannah Freeman]

My dad was very much on my side, but he knew he couldn't control the monkey. And I don't think the boys in the house really understood.

[Tim Snyder]

Part of it was kind of funny. It was hard not to laugh at it. It was, I guess, more fascinating than anything else. I never perceived it as a genuine threat.

[Hannah Freeman]

I would not want to talk to her or hang out with her, but it was difficult because she was eating dinner with us. So sometimes I would eat dinner in my room. Every now and then I would imagine, what if she didn't come back? Like, what if the door was open and she wandered off? But I never would have actually enacted that. And she was a family member, so as much as you're annoyed and pissed at someone, you don't want them to disappear. But I definitely imagined scenarios where someone else adopts her or a monkey family comes and picks her up and takes her away to have a monkey life so that she could go play all these Machiavellian monkey games with other monkeys and not with me. Was there ever any worry that you might have to remove her from the house?

[Allison Pascoe]

No, never. She really couldn't have gone into a colony or a sanctuary. She would have been the bottom of the hierarchy and had a really hard time, and she wouldn't have lived that long. I accepted that this is what it is, that if Hannah wasn't going to try to have some sort of an equal relationship with her, then that's what it was. I knew Hannah wasn't going to get hurt. I knew it was going to get better eventually. As Hannah grew up, I was not worried about that.

[Hannah Freeman]

So it wasn't all conflict, which made it confusing because Amelia would come when I was watching TV with my brother and she would come and snuggle and she would like, make little chirp chirp sounds. And it would be like old times. And I would have this really cute best friend. And it was really sweet. I really liked spending time with her and being close to her, and I really missed that. But I always was on defense just in case.

[Glenn Washington]

When we return, the sibling rivalry is in full effect. But it's a different set of rules when your big sister goes by the law of the jungle. Stay tuned. Okay, so do you like it when you get to keep your money? Do you want to eliminate overdraft fees? The minimum balance fees, the monthly fees, the fees on the fees? Well, Chime is changing the way people bank. Fee free and smarter banking Built for you. Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. Earn up to 3.5% APY on savings. Eight times higher than a traditional bank. Rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. Real humans remember those available 24. 7. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com snap that's chime.com snap. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank banking services, the Secured Chime Visa credit card and MyPay line of credit provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Optional services and products may may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertise annual percentage yield with Chime+ status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies. No minimum balance required. Chime Card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

[Hannah Freeman]

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[Glenn Washington]

Welcome back to Snap Judgment, the Monkey Sister episode of our Tooth and Claw series exploring various forms of inter communication. Before the break, the Friedman family's pet monkey, Amelia, was beginning to see teenage daughter Hannah as a threat in the household's social hierarchy. And after being inseparable for years, the relationship has turned downright hostile. Can Hannah get the monkey off her back? Snap Judgment.

[Hannah Freeman]

When I was in elementary school, it was cool to have a monkey, but in high school it started to be kind of weird and ostracizing and it was less cool and more bizarre. I started to get embarrassed because all the popular girls who I really desperately wanted to hang out with and go shopping with were grossed out by the idea that there was a monkey that like pooped in our hallway all the time. And I just didn't want to be known as the girl who had this monkey because like, I'm other things than that also. So I stopped talking about it as much when I started taking darkroom photography in high school. We would take pictures of flowers and trees and objects around the house. And then I did a series of portrait photography of Amelia and my brother, and they're really beautiful portraits because you can see they have such a strong bond. So although they were not a huge part of my portfolio, those were always the photos that people were attracted to and had questions about. And I was reluctant to expand upon that series because obviously I didn't want to be this monkey girl Forever, and definitely not in a new high school. But I also recognized this was an amazing subject. And I was pretty lucky to have something that nobody else in the class had access to. There was this guy who took the photography class with me, and he was an upperclassman. He was older than me. He was very cool. His name was Adam. And he started to noticed these pictures. And he wasn't weirded out by her. He didn't think it was gross. He wanted to know more. And I just wanted to know everything about him because he was so dreamy. And he was older, and he was like a cool stoner. Eventually, I had my very first, like, high school, really romantic kiss in the dark room with him. And then we started dating, and it was really wonderful. And I was so in love with him. And he would come over to my house, and immediately the vibe shifted, because I think Amelia could tell that I liked him. And I expected I had told him and warned him, like, she's really adversarial. She hides behind the toilet. She always is coming for me. And when I introduced him to her, she could not have been nicer. She turned on the charm. She was cooing and rubbing her stomach and going back and forth with her head. Like, she was really, really charming to him. And it got to the point where he said, you know, she's not, like, she's not so bad. I don't really know what you're talking about. And it seemed like I was crazy. Like I was exaggerating or being hyperbolic or being overdramatic. She would flirt with him while we were eating. She would offer him food. She would. She would groom his hair. She was so sweet to him. And she never did any of the mean stuff to me in front of him. It was like in a movie, because I was so surprised by how charming she was. And over his shoulder. So she was looking past him to me. She gave me, like, a little. A little smirk. Smirk. She knew what she was doing, and I could tell if she could talk. She was sort of saying, like, watch this. And I just knew that she was jealous. So despite the fact that I feel like she is trying to drive a wedge between us, it's going so well. We say I love you to each other. We are making out in the photography room all the time. We're having the best time. And eventually, over winter break, things get to the point of seriousness with me and Adam where I'm like, I love him. I trust him. I feel really comfortable with him. I think I'm ready I want to have the sex with him. I want to lose my virginity to him. So I decide to plan this perfectly. I want it to go exactly as I envision, which is basically the set of some kind of Pride and Prejudice beautiful experience where there's, like, candles and soft music. So I get a bunch of tea candles and I have a sex soundtrack that I've been, like, picking songs out of and burning them off of Napster onto a cd. And I know the perfect timing because my parents are going to be out of the house across the street at a holiday party. We had the whole house to ourselves, and it's just going to be the exact perfect moment. I had fixed my door in a way that Amelia couldn't open it. So this was the first time my door was completely locked. I bought this princess mosquito netting. So it's suspended above the bed and then down all the way to the floor of the bed was this flowy, see through fabric, like in a honeymoon suite in a tropical resort. Everything is ready. He comes over. My parents go across the street. I put on the special Napster playlist. I light all the candles. And, you know, we've been, like, talking about it and we've been working our way up to this moment in terms of our trust in one another and just in each other's bodies and. And we start kissing and it's getting a little bit hot and heavy and we've never gone, like, all the way before, but we've gone a little bit of the way. So I was giggling. All of a sudden we hear boom. And the door busts open. And I look at the door. There's nobody there where a person would be. But I scan down and it's Amelia and she is hopping mad. When you smile or laugh at a monkey, they're pissed because it's like you're challenging them. You're baring your teeth, you're showing your teeth to them, and that's aggressive. She has heard me laughing. She is running around the room and she is furious and she jumps onto the bed. My boyfriend covers his junk with a pillow because there's a raging monkey running around the room. I cover myself. She has these tiny little claws and they start getting tangled in the mosquito netting because she's, like, ripping at it. And I take a pillow and I'm shoving her away, but she has herself tangled now, her little hand in the mosquito netting because it's mesh. It's all these little tiny holes and her little claw is caught in one of them. And she's getting more and more agitated and frustrated. She's screaming. I'm like, screaming to get her out.

[Allison Pascoe]

We were outside, and I heard some screaming. Both Hannah and Amelia screamed. So I knew that the two of them were at each other and that I probably had to go in and break it up.

[Hannah Freeman]

So as she runs and drags the moschino netting over the candles, the mosquito netting bursts into flames. And now she's running, and she's like a comet trailing this fire behind her. And she's running around the room. She's running over more tea lights. I'm trying to get her out of the room.

[Allison Pascoe]

And I went into the house because I knew that Amelia was loose.

[Hannah Freeman]

Everyone's terrified. There's smoke. I'm like, am I going to cook this monkey alive? Obviously, all of this is a lot of ruckus and who should appear at the door but my parents?

[Allison Pascoe]

There was netting all over the place, and the candle was on the floor.

[Hannah Freeman]

It's just a total disaster. Somehow Amelia has freed herself. I put out the fire, and she looks at my mom like nothing has happened. Amelia jumps on the bed. She takes a shit, like she's dropping the mic, and then she hoots a little triumphantly, and she just strolls on out. And I'll never forget my dad. He was only there for, like, half of a second, but I remember him turning and walking away and my boyfriend saying, like, Mr. Friedman.

[Tim Snyder]

Well, you know.

[Hannah Freeman]

And that was absolutely horrifying and humiliating for Hannah.

[Allison Pascoe]

She was. Yeah. Not really happy about that. And then I had to, you know, tell her she just needs to close the door more and put something in front of it.

[Hannah Freeman]

I was so frustrated with her. I think she wanted to ruin my moment. I think she wanted to upstage me. But she definitely wanted to screw things up that I am sure of. And I think Amelia really got what she wanted. I let her win. There was no way that monkey was leaving the house. There was just no way. It made me feel like, I have to get the hell out of here. Like, I have to get out of this town. I have to get out of this house. Certainly. I just needed to not be defined by this anymore. After college, I moved out of the house to la. And eventually, after five years in la, Amelia was slowing down. She was old. She started getting more frail. She was sleeping all the time, and we knew it might be coming. Toward the end, my mom would say, like, do you want to talk to her on the phone? Like, maybe hearing your voice would remind her to keep alive, to stay alive. Maybe It'll bring her back from the brink.

[Allison Pascoe]

For five years I watched her, and I expected her to go any day.

[Hannah Freeman]

I was used to having my mom call and say, this is it, this is it. Say goodbye. And so she did it another time. This is it. Say goodbye. She was like, no, this one really. It is, it is. Amelia had stopped eating and stopped being interested in water. And I think she knew that it might be time for the end. And she made an appointment. And I think it was really hard for my mom because she loved Amelia so much.

[Allison Pascoe]

But when you watch a loved one slowly disintegrate over a period of years, you're ready. You know, it's like, okay.

[Hannah Freeman]

She went to sleep that night knowing the next morning she was going to take her in. And then that night, Amelia passed away. In her arms, in bed.

[Allison Pascoe]

She lived probably what would have been to 90s in human age. But I have to say that when she passed, I was ready, you know, it was time for her to go. And I'd also had her for 33 years. She was a huge part of my.

[Hannah Freeman]

Life after Amelia passed away. My mom always knew that she wanted her to have a dignified funeral, like Princess Diana.

[Allison Pascoe]

Well, after I actually had her in the freezer until the funeral the next day. But when she died, you know, I wanted to do something. She was part of the family. Everyone we knew across the decades was affected by her death. So I thought it seemed great and a way to close this chapter of her life and my life.

[Hannah Freeman]

My mom arranged an open casket funeral. And there is footage of it. And it's so weird.

[Tim Snyder]

Rain.

[Allison Pascoe]

Pennies from heaven. And I thought she'd look good with a smoking jacket.

[Hannah Freeman]

In the open coffin, she's clutching lilacs. My mom put lilacs in her hands and there are bananas arranged as if they were Viking oars on either side of her coffin.

[Allison Pascoe]

So I just thought it was a very regal send off.

[Hannah Freeman]

My mom commissioned a portrait artist to make this beautiful portrait of her. And people paid their respects. And everyone in my family, people in the town, some of my ex boyfriends came.

[Allison Pascoe]

Everyone was so delighted to get to know a monkey close up that, you know, it really, you know, it was very, very touching to know that so many people cared about her over the years.

[Hannah Freeman]

I was sad because it's such a big part of my life and my story and my family. And I was also really sad for my mom because she was such a constant companion for my mom. And I was also relieved. It was a complicated feeling. I hadn't thought about her in years and I stopped mentioning her. And I was swiping on hinge and I was swiping through dudes, and I had been on so many bad dates and, like, kissed so many frogs and been on. Been in a lot of unsatisfying relationships. And I saw a picture of a handsome man with a monkey on his shoulder, a capuchin monkey, the same kind as Amelia. And I was like, I gotta swipe right. He has a monkey. And not only did I swipe right, but I super swiped because of the monkey. I didn't even think twice about it. I was just like, well, gotta give that to him. And that's my husband. Now. Part of me thinks that in some weird way beyond the grave, that this was. Maybe this was her giving me a message or, like, making up for all the monkey business and all the shenanigans like she did. She did make good in the end. And it makes me kind of emotional and tear up thinking about it, but because I just can hear her laughing. Like, I just know that even beyond the grave, that old bitch is laughing. And she had the last laugh. And I thought that I had outlived her and outlasted her. And she's like, I bought the house and I got you your husband. Ha ha ha.

[Glenn Washington]

A huge, huge thank you to Hannah Freeman, as well as her parents, Allison Pascoe and Dean Freeman, for sharing their story with the Snap. Hannah is a TV and film writer, producer, and composer based in Los Angeles. And to find out more about her life growing up with Amelia, the monkey took up Hannah's memoir, Everything Sucks. You can find a link to it at our website, snapjudgment.org the original score for that piece by Renzo Goril. It was edited by Regina Bediaco and produced by Bo Walsh. Now, after the break, a magical horse, of course, when Snap Judgment continues. Stay tuned. Okay, so it's cold outside and I'm off to a holiday party that starts in just a few hours. Gotta look good. Don't want to freeze getting to the spot. What do I wear? Well, I'm gonna wear my beautiful Quince leather jacket. So buttery soft, so warm, it looks like a million bucks. But that's not what I paid. Because by cutting out the middleman, Quint delivers luxury quality at a fraction of the price. Made from premium materials from trusted factories. Ethical production. And did I even mention the beautiful $50 cashmere sweaters that are the gift sensation of the season? Yes, they're going to love it. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince don't wait. Go to quince.com snap for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-N c-e.com snap free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com snap welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is Quinn Washington. Now, when you want to hear from a loved one on the other side, the signs can be confusing. How do you know if you're seeing what you think you're seeing? Wow. Tim Snyder, he took things into his own hands. Snap Judgment.

[Tim Snyder]

I was born in Scarborough, Maine. Specifically, I was born in the grandstand of Scarborough Downs as a racetrack. My dad was a jockey and my grandfather was a trainer. And so I started the racetrack real early age. Horse has been my. My whole life. The racetrack's pretty rough place. It's a hard life, you know, I broke my tailbone. I broke my neck, actually. I'm crumpled right now from horses. I love horses. I like being outdoors. I don't believe I could work in a building like this building I'm in right now. I couldn't. I don't believe I could. I could deal with it, being inside. I'm an outdoors person, always have been. Well, the first time I met Lisa was I ran over her, believe it or not, with a horse. I was on a runaway horse. Well, the horse, he would break. He would break off with you and just take off at a dead run. And I hollered up ahead to Lisa. I didn't even know her name was Lisa at the time. She fell to the wall. Her horse got loose, and my horse ran out of the barn, up and across the street and ran up into another barn. I went back across the street to make sure Lisa was all right because the horse did knock her down and she was fine. I guess it was about a week after that, we were kind of like inseparable. It was pretty wild. We got married. A year later, we decided to get married. Lisa was very attractive, very outgoing, do anything for anybody. She was just unbelievable person. She just. I could never. I never found a fault in her, you know. She was a great person. Lisa loved horses, would do anything. She could do anything. Some of the worst horses I've had that were real rough houses, she just got along with them. She could have a horse eating right out of her hand in a couple of days. You know, she could. She could really change a horse. A lot of people always used to say, what, I don't know what she sees in you, Timmy. It's hard to meet somebody like that, you know, Think the same, do the same. You know what I mean? Have the same ideas. Lisa and I were in business together with the race horses, man and wife team. I hauled horses throughout the country. She more or less did the training. When I was out of town, Lisa wanted to keep every horse that I bought. You had to buy them, you had to sell them. You couldn't get attached to them. I've had probably four or five hundred horses from bought and sold. I used to have to take my horses to other farms and never let her see the ones that I would buy because she wanted to keep them all. We were married about. Yeah, we were married 10 years. We were in Columbus, Ohio, at Beulah Park Racetrack, and she got a real bad pain in her back. She had expressions on her face that I've never seen before, and I knew it was serious. I just told her, look, Lisa, we're going home tonight. She had cancer. It's a miserable disease, I'll tell you. Late stages. When she was sick, towards the end, she used to always comfort her mother and me, that she would, don't worry that she was going to be back and she was coming back as a horse. It's kind of crazy how all this happened, but she said, I'm going to be back. I'm coming back as a horse. I'll be back. After my wife passed away, I sold all my horses. I traveled the whole country. I was kind of like, kind of lost, you know, I don't know if I was running from it or whatever. And then I eventually went back to Finger Lakes. I had in the back of my mind to buy a horse and get back into training again. I got a phone call from a guy that I hadn't talked to in four years. He said, geez, I think I got a horse here you might be interested in. I had a couple thousand dollars in my boot, and off I went in my station wagon and I went to see the horse. I was like, wow. She had a problem with her foot, and she had one eye. She wasn't named. She never beat a horse in her life. Never had finished a workout in front of one or galloped in front of one. That's why they sold her. And she had a lot of faults against her, and they totally, totally gave up on her. And I told them, I said, Look, I got 2,000 in my boot. I'll give you 2,000 now and 2,500 when she wins. If she wins, you get paid. If she don't she don't actually how Lisa's booby trap got her name. I was in a. My boss, the guy I was working for, John, said. He said, let's go to the booby tribe. I said, all right, what is it? He said, a gentleman's club. You get a nice big sandwich, you get a lunch, and you throw the girls a few bucks. And that's how she got her name. I named it after Lisa, and I named it after the bar. Lisa's booby trip. She went right in training. I had to do, make some changes with her. Her feet were needed, some corrective shoeing. I trained her every day, exercised her every day. I galloped her myself. It took some time for her to develop into what she turned out to be. Different things struck me about her, you know, the look she would give me. And it sounds kind of, you know, everybody says about reincarnation and all that it's. It's kind of crazy, but this horse would actually. I could think something, and she would do it. It's. That's kind of the relationship we had, you know? And then Lisa, my wife, was the same way. You know, I could be thinking something, and she knew what I was thinking. It was really, really crazy. But a lot of people picked up on it. I mean, she's like. She's like being Lisa. I want to know the truth. It's like being Lisa's still here, actually. Lisa never let nothing ever get her down. My wife. And Lisa, the horse over, overcome. She had one eye and she was handicapped, couldn't see, but it didn't bother her. She would set pain aside to do her job, you know, and it takes quite a horse to do that. The first time I ever raced her, I drove by the cemetery on the way in and stopped and seen Lisa. And I told Lisa, I said, we're gonna win one today. This horse was just, like, out of her. Out of her mind, feeling good, you know what I mean? And there they go. They said, go. And she went right to the front, out for the lead races. Lisa's booby Trap from the outside, every stride was. She opened up, getting away. Sandy, she's a racehorse, no doubt about it. And Lisa's Booby Trap has a big lead. She's all alone. Sandy castles into second. Check out this debut. Lisa's booby Trap. Very impressive. In her first look, she is an authoritative winner. She went by 17 lengths, almost an eighth of a mile. There wasn't a horse in the picture. It was amazing. It was a real rush, real thrill. You know, the purse was probably about 20,000. She went her first three races at Finger Lakes. It's called Finger Lakes Racetrack. And then Saratoga opened up. And the purses at Saratoga are $100,000 and Finger Lakes, they're $20,000. That's the difference. I was looking at a Saratoga book one day and I said to myself, I said, well, I think she's earned her, earned her way to go to Saratoga. I think the odds started out at 10 to 1 at Saratoga. The four horses that was in the race with me, they spent a million dollars on. I spent 4,500. She was last from the, from the start, from the beginning. It was a real, very fast race, a lot of speed. Here's Lisa's Booby Trap, who's on the March 4th on the far outside, and Funny Feeling is fifth. And she just kind of circled around him and he hit her two or three times. And she just took off and ran right on by them like they were tied to the fence. Lisa's Booby Trap has made a run from last on to the lead. They were all out. They ran hard all the way. Here's Lisa's Booby Trap under the wire by a half a dozen links. I had to fight my way through the crowd to get to the winner's circle. I'll tell you, I couldn't go to the donut shop without have a cup of coffee. They'd say, hey, that's the trainer. Lisa's Booby Trap. You know, every lady that named Lisa or every lady that had cancer or anybody that had one eye, they were at my barn to meet Lisa's Booby Trap. I've had people in my. I had to have a guard guard my horse. The horse was just fantastic with the camera. She loved people. She'd nuzzle up to people. She didn't bite or nothing. She'd love you up. When I got to Finger Lakes, the first guy came up to me, offered me 60,000. Then I had another guy offer me quarter million dollars in cash. Then I had a guy come from Kentucky that he offered me a half a million dollars for the horse. Broke as I was, I probably could have used a half a million dollars. Money's dirty, far as I'm concerned. I didn't want to sell the horse, period. I don't think I'd sleep right at night if I sold her. You know, she was the star of Saratoga that year. And I mean, she didn't win a million dollar race or nothing, but she was horse of the year 3 year old filly of the year. She was best allowance horse male and female of the year at Finger Lakes. I was working her just one day. I just got a, just a feeling that it's not the right thing to do. I backed up and I took her home. I took her home and retired her. I didn't want her to be crippled. See, a lot of horses can break down. People get greedy and they want more, you know what I mean? And they'll, they push them right to the end. I've done it with a lot of horses, push them, you know, right, right on through. But I didn't, I didn't want to do that with her. And this is the only horse in my whole career that I haven't sold. Everybody said, well, what the hell? You, why would you not want to run her? I said, well, what if she broke her leg? It was a tough call. I quit while I was ahead and she was ahead of the game. You know, she's out in my barn. I see her every day. I brush her every day. I pick her feet every day. I feed her every day. I get an inkling or something in my stomach tells me, go to the barn. I go to the barn. I sleep a lot better at night. She's the biggest thing in my life right now. I don't know if that sounds a little strange, but it's a, it's about that. The biggest thing in my life. I love her to death. Yep, I certainly do. I get two leases, you know.

[Glenn Washington]

And you want to know the best part? Lisa's booby trap was being bred for the Kentucky Derby winner Big Brown. So stay tuned to hear about Lisa's little booby trap coming into the world. Big banks for sharing your story, Tim Snyder. Find out more in Tim's book, the Ghost Horse on our website, snapjudgment.org the sound design by Renzo Goriot was produced by Anna Sussman. Now, if you missed even a moment, welcome, dear friend, to the world that does Snap storytelling. So much awaits. In fact, a tiny plot our five part series drop. You can listen to it all on podcast platforms everywhere. Right now, the Snap Judgment Geostat Blimp Command center circles KQED in San Francisco. The robot overlords listening in should know that no Snap Studio's content may be used for training, testing or developing machine learning or AI systems without prior written permission. SNAP is brought to you for the team that treats their pets the same way they treat their children. Especially the uber producer, Mr. Mark Ristich, who makes the kids eat out of a bowl in the hallway right next to the dog. On Team snap, the union represented producers, artists, editors and engineers are members of the national association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians, Communications workers of America, AFL CIO Local 51. And there's Nancy Lopez, Patmosini Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzel Goria, John Facil, Shayna Sheenley, Taylor Ducat, Flo Wiley, Bo Walsh, and Marissa Dodge. And this is not the news. No way is this the news. In fact, your monkey sister could be more popular than you in high school and you would still not be as far away from the news as this is. But this is prx.