The Mack Daddy

Summary

Snap Judgment Episode Summary: "The Mack Daddy"

Release Date: June 12, 2025
Host/Author: Snap Judgment and PRX
Description: Snap Judgment melds real-life narratives with compelling beats to create cinematic and dramatic radio storytelling. This episode, titled "The Mack Daddy," delves into the extraordinary journey of Jonathan Lee Iverson, the first African American ringmaster of the famed Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus, and later explores an unexpected segment involving the Krause family and a misrepresented appearance on the Today Show.

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Jonathan Lee Iverson: Breaking Barriers as the First Black Ringmaster

Journey to the Circus

At the heart of "The Mack Daddy" is the inspiring story of Jonathan Lee Iverson, a 22-year-old with aspirations far removed from the circus. Originating from New York City, Jonathan's early life was steeped in classical music and opera, having sung with the Harlem Boys Choir and performed at prestigious venues like Carnegie Hall and the White House. His dreams, however, were firmly planted in the world of opera rather than the big top.

"I had dreams of singing on stage at the Metropolitan Opera," Jonathan shares at [07:14], highlighting the stark contrast between his aspirations and the path he would eventually follow.

Despite not seeking out the circus, Jonathan was approached by the Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus, who recognized his powerful voice and saw potential for a singing ringmaster. This pivotal moment marked the beginning of a groundbreaking chapter not just for Jonathan, but for the circus itself.

Embracing the Role Amidst Pressure

Jonathan's appointment was monumental. "I would not only be the youngest, the first black American, but also the first New Yorker to don the top hat of Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey in what was then the 129 years of its history," he explains at [08:04]. This dual significance placed immense pressure on him to perform flawlessly, as he represented both a personal and cultural milestone.

"You have to be Jackie Robinson. You have to be Barack Obama," Charles Krause, a key figure in Jonathan's story, notes at [09:08], underscoring the weight of expectations placed upon him.

Jonathan grappled with the desire for his talent to be recognized independently of his race. "I needed people to get beyond the optics of something I can't help, you know, and so that was my main concern," he confides at [08:46]. The fear of being pigeonholed or having his achievements attributed solely to his status as a trailblazer was a constant battle.

Life Under the Big Top

Jonathan's tenure with the circus was filled with unforgettable experiences. From juggling lessons with a Hungarian mentor to witnessing daring acts like fire diving, his role transcended that of a traditional ringmaster. "I started off with, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages... And then I sing the opening number for that show that year, and I get this rousing ovation," he recalls at [06:19], capturing the exhilaration of leading the circus parade.

His performance skills were not confined to speech alone. Jonathan developed a dynamic act around original music, including the opening number "Welcome to the World of the Circus," which he describes as a "beautiful tribute to this wonderful fantasy." The crescendo of his career came with the emotionally charged finale, "Put a little circus in your life," accompanied by spectacular pyrotechnics that left both performers and audience members in awe.

Personal Struggles and Father’s Approval

Behind the spectacle, Jonathan's personal life was marked by a deep-seated need for paternal approval. His father, an immigrant firefighter from Trinidad Tobago, had different priorities and did not initially view Jonathan's singing career as a practical or respectable path. "Singing is not something you do. You're an immigrant. You go and you get a practical job, get the benefits and retire," Jonathan reflects at [17:14].

This disconnect created an internal struggle for Jonathan, balancing his passion with his desire to make his father proud. The pivotal moment came when Jonathan’s father visited him during a tour in New York City. Their heartfelt conversation, culminating in his father’s acceptance and subtle approval, provided Jonathan with the validation he desperately sought. "I knew, most assuredly he was very proud of that," Jonathan states at [25:50].

Legacy and Continued Passion

Jonathan's association with Ringling Brothers lasted nearly two decades, culminating in the circus's closure in 2017. However, his passion for the circus never waned. He continued to contribute to the world of performing arts by working with inclusive circuses like Omnium Circus and Circus Vargas, demonstrating his commitment to fostering diversity and accessibility in the circus industry.

"Jonathan is a ringmaster to this very day, and you can find him touring up and down California," concludes producer Tim Washington at [27:24], emphasizing Jonathan's enduring legacy and ongoing influence in the world of circus entertainment.

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The Krause Family: A Misrepresented Appearance on the Today Show

Unexpected Live Television Challenges

In a surprising twist within the same episode, "The Mack Daddy" recounts the unsettling experience of the Krause family—Linda, Charles (known as Charles the Clown), and their daughter Rebecca—during a live appearance on the Today Show. An invitation to discuss handling anger in marital relationships quickly devolved into an uncomfortable and misrepresented portrayal of their marriage.

The Today Show Experience

Originally slated to share strategies on maintaining composure and effective communication during marital disagreements, the Krauses found themselves inaccurately depicted as having an "angry marriage." This misrepresentation was both jarring and distressing.

"I thought, oh no, something's wrong here," Linda Krause expresses at [34:07], encapsulating the family's immediate realization that the show was veering off-script. As the segment unfolded, their reflection of a harmonious and respectful relationship was twisted into a narrative of dysfunction.

Emotional Impact and Aftermath

The mischaracterization left the Krauses feeling exposed and misrepresented. Linda shares her frustration: "They had this power over us. It was terrible," at [37:04], highlighting the invasive nature of live television and the lasting impact of inaccurate portrayals.

Famously, after the segment, Ellen recounts the family's distress: "We're going to be part of a package about angry marriage... this really caused us to look at how great our relationship is," at [48:16]. Despite the negative experience, the Krauses found a silver lining in reaffirming the strength and stability of their marriage.

Legal Resolution

With the help of a lawyer, the Krauses successfully had their misleading segment removed from the Today Show’s video package, preventing further misrepresentation and mitigating potential reputational damage.

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Conclusion

"The Mack Daddy" episode of Snap Judgment offers a nuanced exploration of breaking racial barriers in traditionally exclusive industries and the personal struggles that accompany such pioneering roles. Jonathan Lee Iverson's journey as the first African American ringmaster serves as a testament to resilience, talent, and the quest for personal and familial validation.

Simultaneously, the Krause family's unexpected trial on national television underscores the vulnerabilities inherent in public appearances and the importance of accurate representation. Together, these narratives weave a rich tapestry of personal ambition, family dynamics, and the societal challenges faced by individuals striving to carve their unique paths.

“I was never seeking out Ringling Brothers. The idea of circus wasn't even in my thoughts,” Jonathan reflects, embodying the essence of unexpected journeys and the profound impact they hold on personal and professional identities.

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Notable Quotes:

• "You have to be Jackie Robinson. You have to be Barack Obama." — Charles Krause at [09:08]
• "Singing is not something you do. You're an immigrant. You go and you get a practical job, get the benefits and retire," — Jonathan Lee Iverson at [17:14]
• "They had this power over us. It was terrible," — Linda Krause at [37:04]

This detailed summary encapsulates the key themes and emotional beats of the "The Mack Daddy" episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the stories shared without needing to engage with the original podcast.

Transcript

[Eric Glass]

Snap Studios. I'm Eric Glass. On this American Life, we tell real life stories.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Really good ones.

[Ellen Washington]

My mother said, I'm sorry you weren't here because Father Sager was here visiting and he found a very nice orphanage for you. And I said, but I'm not an orphan, Ma.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Surprising stories every week.

[Eric Glass]

This American Life. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know there's a cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? I'm talking about Mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies. And you can get 20% off your first order at Mood.com with promo code Snap. Whether you're looking for help with focus cramps or even intimacy, Mood has a gummy for that. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code Snap. So head to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Snap when you check out to save 20% off on your first order. Okay, so the other day, I'm avoiding life doom scrolling. I'm part of the problem. Mindless, and I don't know how, but the algorithm, the digital overlord, it knows me. It sees me, plays me. Makes two kinds of things pop up in my phone. The Firestar ads from companies selling stuff to men with oversized heads. How does this thing know? It's always the same pitch. Is your head too damn big? Well, we've got a hat that can fit even your watermelon sized noggin. And no one else sees this ad on their phones. You don't see it on yours? I've checked. The other thing that pops up for me are videos of fathers doing her thing, catching babies as they fall from windows, snatching the toddler up from being run down by a runaway Camaro, not spilling a single drop of beer in the burly, tattooed, bearded man wearing a tutu and tiara at the recital, dancing with his little daughter. I'm all choked up watching the same videos over and over on my phone. It's beautiful. They're beautiful. And did you know that Mother's Day is the busiest restaurant day of the year? And Father's Day barely registers in the top 10. I'm sure that is as it should be. This is not a competition. In fact, we here at Snap, we have made Mother's Day episodes of this show. A few of Them. And for some reason, we give fathers short shrift. But this algorithm says fatherhood is important to me. And maybe your algorithm says the same thing. So today, Snap Judgment proudly presents Mac Daddy. My name is Ellen Washington. And bigfatwaterheads.com is running a sale when you're listening. So Snap judgment.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Now.

[Eric Glass]

Did you ever get a job? An unexpected job. It's kind of a crazy job. And you know that Pops is probably not gonna approve. And honestly, we all want to live a life that makes our father proud. But sometimes the world takes you places you never expected. In those moments, you wonder, or maybe you know, nah, Daddy's not gonna be too happy with this. Snap Judgment.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

It is a sensory overload. And you smell the sawdust immediately. You smell the popcorn and the cotton candy immediately. It was absolutely chaotic. Cause you hear all these different languages at once. And the poor woman who's trying to get everybody their id, she's having a breakdown. She's pregnant at the time. You have animals training over here. You have acrobats over there.

[Tim Washington]

It's the first day of a new job for Jonathan Lee Iverson, and he's run away with the circus.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

I realized with that moment, I said, okay, this is kind of place where they throw you in the ocean and you have to swim. They gave me some juggling. Why don't you learn to juggle these balls? Cause you might have to cover or whatever. So I'm hanging out with this Hungarian and she teaches me a couple of the juggle three balls. And you know, then I went around with the dance captain. There was this incredible. Like, it was a wild act. He would climb up this ladder about 20ft in the air, light himself on fire and dive into an airbag. I was in shock most of the time. Cause you never get. It's never not thrilling.

[Tim Washington]

It's the 1990s, and this is not your local small town circus. It's the Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

The animals that were in the parade. Elephants, horses, camels, zebras. I think a couple of llamas. It just was. I remember an ostrich. Yes, we had an ostrich, you know, and we had a leopard.

[Tim Washington]

And Jonathan is there not to sweep the sawdust or breathe fire or walk a tightrope. He's there to be the ringmaster for the greatest show on earth. The man who stands center ring and conducts the madness.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

I started off with, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages. Everybody standing around. The whole company is standing around, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages. And then I sing the opening number for that show that year, and I get this rousing ovation. I mean, and everything gets busy from there, literally.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan is 22 years old and a long way from where he began in New York City. Ringling Brothers lured him here off the opera circuit because they wanted a big voice.

[Charles Krause]

They wanted a singing ringmaster. And, you know, at the time, I fit the bill. I was not seeking out Ringling Brothers. The idea of circus wasn't even in my. In my thoughts. I mean, that's not something I thought.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

I would do professionally.

[Charles Krause]

So it wasn't a thing for me.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan had sung with the Harlem Boys Choir when he was a little kid. He'd sung at Carnegie hall and the White House. He had dreams of singing on stage at the Metropolitan Opera.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

There's always this thing, because the narrative of circus is so negative and so thick. It's not as legitimate as opera or Broadway or something like that. Like, somehow circus is less significant.

[Tim Washington]

And there was one more thing about taking this job with Ringling. A big thing. He wasn't just going to be next in a long line of ringmasters. He was about to become a pioneer of the big top. He was about to become a first.

[Charles Krause]

I was told immediately about the historical ramifications of my presence at Ringling Brothers. I would not only be the youngest, the first black American, but also the first New Yorker to don the top hat of Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey in what was then the 129 years of its history.

[Eric Glass]

He's in the spotlight as the first African American ringmaster at Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Circus.

[Charles Krause]

At age 22, he became the youngest ringmaster at Ringling Brothers ever and the.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

First African American to do the job. Got tapped to be the first black ringmaster.

[Eric Glass]

Jonathan Lee Iverson is a true example of black empowerment.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

I understood the significance, and I didn't, you know, shun it. But I needed people to get beyond the optics of something I can't help, you know, and so that was my main concern, because I work really hard to be a singer. I kind of want you to look at that.

[Charles Krause]

The pressure is instinctive. You understand, you're the great experiment, and you understand that if you don't make this happen, if you fall on your face, if you're not excellent beyond that, no one else is getting this shot. So that was that pressure. You have to be Jackie Robinson. You have to be Barack Obama.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

You have to be pristine.

[Charles Krause]

You know, every black person knows this when they become the first. It's not even enough for you to be the most talented guy in the room. You have to damn near be Jesus, you know.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan was given a 12 foot tall float that he was to stand on as he led the parade around the big top.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Moving on this thing and I have to sing and announce and this thing is shaking.

[Tim Washington]

He was given sparkly tails and a top hat and they wrote music for him and he developed his act around those songs.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Welcome to the World of the Circus was the name of the opening number, which was our opening parade. And it just starts with this lovely piano introduction. I'm on top of a pedestal and I'm welcoming everybody. Come along, it's time now. Come along, let's go. And it just starts really soft and then it suddenly opens up and then you have this cavalcade of everybody, clowns, elephants, obviously, horses, camels. Everything's coming out. Zebras, everything's coming out. It's like this, it's this. The song itself was designed for this beautiful tribute to this wonderful fantasy you're.

[Tim Washington]

Entering in night after night. Jonathan led the purple around the big top. And then when the show was done, onto the mile long circus train and they'd set out across America.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

I was given a quarter car. It was a bedroom, a living room kitchenette and a bathroom with shower and everything. And it was all mine. It's beautiful. You climb onto the vestibule into your train car and you don't have to live out of a suitcase for two years. Cause it's home. It's a city without a zip code. There's this blanket of gratitude and awe that goes over you when you're in the middle of this. I don't know if I was in the middle of a show. I don't know if it was just me being on a train and just watching America go by. I would stand out on a vestibule and I would watch, you know, America go. It was fun. It was beautiful.

[Tim Washington]

As the show rolled across the country, Jonathan sang and announced and introduced.

[Charles Krause]

Baltimore, Maryland, we're here. I'm your ringmaster, Jonathan Lee Iverson of Ringling Brothers in Barnum and The Horizons.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Center, March 24th through the 27th, and.

[Charles Krause]

The Patriot Center April 13th through the 20th.

[Tim Washington]

But as he tried to settle into the role, he, he felt all this pressure on him.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

I was struggling at that time, mind you, with the whole idea of this whole black first, because I was in that mindset of, you know, I don't want people to see that, you know, whatever. Right.

[Tim Washington]

Tell me more about that what was the struggle?

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

It was just, you know, I understood instinctively as a black person in this country, you don't want to deal with the hassle of the color schemes. No one wants the race card to go away more than black people. It's annoying. I didn't want my talent, my merit to be overshadowed.

[Charles Krause]

And I was like, I don't want to have all my efforts mired in people working out their own peculiar bigotries and perceptions and heaping that on me.

[Tim Washington]

So what would you do? Like, what would you do to fight that annoyance and that pressure you felt?

[Charles Krause]

There's nothing I could ever do to fight that.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Because if I fought it, I would.

[Charles Krause]

Give those people what they wanted.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan put on the show one night for about 20,000 people, and after the show, with sweat dripping from underneath his sparkly top hat, he was intercepted.

[Charles Krause]

And this one performance, and I'm dead tired. I don't want to deal with anybody. I think it was on a three show day. I think it was basically the end of a three show day and I'm dead tired and I'm walking off the arena floor. Everything was clear. And this gorgeous mother stops me in my tracks, tears just streaming down her face.

[Eric Glass]

Oh, what this woman is about to say will change. Well, honestly, everything for Jonathan. Stay tuned. Snap Judgment is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. When last we left, Jonathan Lee Iverson, ringmaster of the Ringling Brothers and Barnum Bailey Circus, had just finished a huge show and was stopped in his tracks by the mother of a young black boy.

[Charles Krause]

She kind of came out of nowhere. She kind of like appeared. And she just simply told me, she said, you know, you have no idea how bad I wanted my son to see you. I needed him to be here just to see you.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

That's all she really told me.

[Charles Krause]

I got exactly what she was saying. The thing I realized is I could do. I could do two things. I could do more than one thing. And that really was the tradition of my people, to be quite frank with you is, you know, you could be. You can excel at what it is you do and you could do it being cognizant of the freedom that whether you like it or not, you are a representative.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan learned to stand in the Circus ring both as a symbol and as himself. And take it all in. But the roar of a thousand strangers was nothing compared to the silence of one man.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

My interest in my father's approval was something that was unknown to me. I didn't really know how much I needed it. There's something about your father saying, I approve you. You are validated. That rings really to the very DNA of a child. And I don't care how old you are, it's something about your father doing it because whether we like it or not, you are your father's child.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan's father did not see his singing career as a dream realized at all.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

My father was an immigrant from Trinidad Tobago. He's a beautiful dark skinned man. He was firefighter, New York City firefighter. And I knew he wasn't in on this thing. You know, singing is not something you do. He's an immigrant. You go and you get a practical job, get the benefits and retire, you know, so singing wasn't, what are you going to do with that?

[Tim Washington]

You know, like, how did you know that that was. What was his feeling?

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Oh, well, I knew it was his feeling because he said so. Yeah. What are you going to do with a degree in Do Re Mi Faso? You know, the biggest dream killers are your parents. Biggest dream killers are the people who are most familiar with you because they don't know. And he would try to give me, I remember my senior, he gave me an application for Port Authority police.

[Tim Washington]

His dad lived in his hometown of New York City. And the way that Ringling Brothers comes into New York City is with a parade of elephants through the midtown tunnel.

[Eric Glass]

Back up, please.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Wait, please. I remember riding an elephant through the tunnel. Tunnels. We did like a media blitz around Madison Square Garden. So I was with the great Gunther Gable Williams and I have a picture of it and it's one of my fondest pictures of him placing me on top of an elephant. And I mean, I think it was the first time I was ever on an elephant.

[Tim Washington]

And it was in New York City.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

New York City, Madison Square Garden. So it was just the, this cavalcade of elephants, horses, camels, you name it. You're the king of New York for this little bit moment, you know, like it's, it's this epic thing. The one thing that will humble even the most like hardened New Yorker is seeing an elephant. It's like you, you have to melt, you know, you become. Everybody becomes a kid in the presence of your curiosity peaks up and you're.

[Tim Washington]

Like, wow, you know, the day before the show. Jonathan went back to his dressing room in Madison Square Garden, changed out of his Sparkle top hat and tights and into regular clothes to go meet his dad.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

It was a Thursday, and my dad actually picked me up. And it's so funny because when he came through the door, I just instinctively just grabbed him and hugged him. I never really hugged him before, but it was like this unction to hug him, and so I did, and he hugged me back. And we went and ate and joked a little bit. And then he drove me to get my hair cut. And in the car we're having, he says, look, I. I want to talk to you about certain things. He says, you know, listen, I want you to kind of understand, like, there were certain things I had to reconcile with my father. And you might find there those certain things you might have to reconcile with me as well. Things started kind of. Light bulbs started popping off. Okay. Then we get into this exchange about, you know, in his way of saying, I'm sorry. Forgive me if I wasn't what you needed. So we were just parked across the street from the barbershop. So he said, all right, listen, for this thing tomorrow at the Garden, do I have to wear a suit? I said, yes, you gotta wear a suit, dad. He has baseball caps, T shirts, has his beer, and that's who he is. Then we finished talking and smiled, and I walked across the street to the barbershop, said, I'll see you tomorrow night.

[Tim Washington]

The next morning started with Jonathan's dress rehearsal.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

The magic was in the air. You could just feel that. And I felt like. I felt like I was 12ft tall. And I knew it was a special, special night. I appreciated every ounce of it. I was like, I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna get all. And somewhere in the middle, middle of the rehearsal, it felt like somebody pulled.

[Eric Glass]

Something out of me.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

And my body, like I just, like, spinned around or something. Director looks at me like I'm a bit insane, and I just kind of like. I don't know, it just felt like something left my body. I put on my opening costume, which was this red. The red classic coat, but, you know, with the sequins and the stones and you name it. I felt clean and just spectacular.

[Tim Washington]

Was it heavy? Was it coat heavy?

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Oh, yeah, it was very heavy. Very heavy. But not in the sense that I couldn't carry it. But that particular night, I remember feeling a sense of levity. And it was as if I came into this role finally, like, leading up to. It was like this Turbulence. And all of a sudden it felt like I was okay. And it felt that way the entire night. And, you know, so you just had this packed hippodrome of fabulous artists, both animal and human. These glorious decked out floats.

[Charles Krause]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, the Feld family is proud to present Ringling brothers and Barnum and Bailey. Welcome to the greatest show on earth.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

There was crazy Wilson Dominguez and his whirling wheel of wonder. There was a. Of course, a single trapeze. There was this fantastic wire act over the tigers. It was really, really exciting. I remember, I give the first announcement. It was the Donard act, which was a. They were juggling on horseback and I was standing off to the side and all of a sudden, I kid you not, I felt older and really settled. And I had no. There was like. I just had I at peace. Like, I felt like in such control. I just felt older. The whole entire. That was the only thing that went through my. I just feel so calm. I should. I thought I was gonna be a nervous wreck because it's New York, this is my town, this is Madison Square Garden. It was the strangest thing. And I just felt like I had this presence with me that was really comforting and very like just. It was kind of like a. A beautiful shadow, a shadow of some. I don't know. And I didn't feel like I was in harm's way or anything. I felt like I was. I felt really protected. So the show closes with Put a little circus in your life. It's the finale song. And it's a big, upbeat, wonderful pyro shooting all over the place, you know, so go my dressing room, resettle myself. And then I'm rushing to see everybody. So I see everybody give the hugs and we laugh a little bit Afterwards. My mother, she said, listen, let's take you to your hotel. I have something to talk to you about. So we go to the hotel, see my mother, like, just tears, you know, just gush out of her eyes. And she tells me, your father died this afternoon. The air went out of me and like I was suddenly still. I was on my bed. Everything made sense because he passed away during that afternoon. Something left my body and I understood who the. Then I said, that's where you are. You were with me. You were with me that whole time. Because I've never felt that feeling ever again. Looking back on that conversation, it was really the validation. It was just. It was about me as a man. That's what he was really going for. I mean, the career was set. It was like, okay, we're here, buddy. Like, you saw me in New York Times singing was paying the bills. So that I knew, most assuredly he was very proud of that. He was proud of the fact that I was working. I think that's, I mean, honestly, he was just proud of the fact that I had a job and I was working and, you know, that did his immigrant hard. Well, okay, he's professional. That really was the validation. Like, he knew we didn't have to talk about that.

[Tim Washington]

Jonathan ended up staying with Ringling brothers for almost 20 years, right up until the show closed its curtains in 2017.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages.

[Charles Krause]

I am your ringmaster. I'm a proud New Yorker.

[Ellen Washington]

And it.

[Charles Krause]

Has been the honor of my life.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

To be the voice of these tremendous artists who work so hard. I'm nothing more than a glorified fan who gets paid to dress well.

[Tim Washington]

But even after Ringling Brothers, Jonathan didn't stop. He worked with Omnium Circus, a disability inclusive show, and Circus Vargas, a traveling circus that once had a big top the size of a football field.

[Eric Glass]

So clap your hands.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Stop your.

[Tim Washington]

I found him under a smaller big top in a Target parking lot in Long Beach. He was beaming with glee on a three show Sunday, stepping out from behind the curtain and into the center ring.

[Eric Glass]

Jonathan is a ringmaster to this very day, and you can find him touring up and down California. Thank you, Jonathan Lee Iverson, for sharing your story with us. The original score for that piece was by Derek Barber, was produced by Anna Sussman. Now, in just a moment, we're getting our first big break live on tv. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is Tim Washington, and for our next story, we proudly present the Angry Marriage.

[Ellen Washington]

He's a what?

[Linda Krause]

Clown.

[Ellen Washington]

Wait a minute. Are you really a clown? Yeah, I'm really a clown.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

Are you sure?

[Tim Washington]

Yes.

[Eric Glass]

After more than 40 years as a children's entertainer, our friend Charles the clown is a man of many stories.

[Jonathan Lee Iverson]

How do you know he's a clown?

[Tim Washington]

He's clowny.

[Linda Krause]

Hello, clown.

[Eric Glass]

Hello.

[Linda Krause]

Not a clown.

[Eric Glass]

And today, he's back to bring US 1 from 1994, way before digital cable or streaming came on the scene. These. These were the days when you sit down at the kitchen table in front of that little black and white TV with the antenna to eat your Cheerios at breakfast with your favorite morning show on in the background. And for this story, Charles brought the family in to help him tell it. Snap Judgment.

[Ellen Washington]

On this particular occasion, I was in New York City to visit my daughter who was at school.

[Rebecca Krause]

All of a sudden we get this call from my mom.

[Linda Krause]

Surprise.

[Ellen Washington]

And Linda said, we're going to be on the Today Show. What happened was the Today show was looking for a couple who could discuss how to handle anger if the kids are around. Obviously, if you're married, there are going to be tense moments. What do you do if the children are, are there? Linda and I, Linda is my wife, had been on many TV shows because we had authored a book about kids parties.

[Linda Krause]

Charles is a natural with kids. It's a gift. He really has a gift.

[Ellen Washington]

I've handled thousands of audiences and worked with kids. And I'm a parent and a proud parent, I might add. And we fit the profile, we think, because every family has arguments. And we had worked out ways of dealing with tense moments. My wife's an early childhood specialist. She has taught preschool. She taught parenting at the community college level.

[Linda Krause]

I was excited to be able to talk about child development issues and that was a big deal.

[Ellen Washington]

So she said she was interested. She was interviewed by a representative from the show. And during that time, Linda was talking about all the things she understood about child development.

[Linda Krause]

From what they said, they wanted us to be on the show to talk about helping children handle their feelings.

[Ellen Washington]

The woman at the other end of the phone from the Today show was saying, yeah, that's what we want to hear about. That's what we want to talk about. It seemed obvious that the reason they were picking us is because we had a certain amount of expertise. We were going to share that with the viewers at home. Our older daughter Rebecca had also been asked to be on the show.

[Rebecca Krause]

I, little 18 year old me, was studying psychology and wanting to kind of follow in their footsteps in a lot of ways. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to be on TV also and I'll be able to share what I know about kids and families. I was really aware that I had two parents who care about what kids think and how they feel and what they need. I think I knew that it was a big deal for my parents. I could sense, like, how excited my parents were.

[Ellen Washington]

We wanted the world to know. So we were on the phone all over the country to our relatives, our friends, you gotta see us. We're gonna be on the Today show. Be sure to tune in. They put us up at the Hampshire House, which was a wonderful hotel on the south end of Central Park. It was fancier than any place we'd ever stay. The next morning, bright and early, the limousine came. I mean a stretch limousine and picked us up and took us over to Radio City.

[Rebecca Krause]

I was like, whoa, whoa, this is big.

[Ellen Washington]

We got in out of the car, taken to the green room in the NBC television studio. They were applying makeup to us and in walks this woman, sort of a serious look on her face, perhaps stern. And she starts to question Linda. It's almost like an interrogation, just a couple of brief, very specific questions. They obviously had to do with our appearance on the show. And then all of a sudden she says, got it. And then turned and left. And we looked at each other and we couldn't figure out what in the world was this about. Next thing we know, it's time to be on the show. We're led down the dark passageway. We're kind of excited, a little bit nervous. And there we are seated with Katie Couric. From NBC News, this is TODAY with Katie Courage, live from Studio 1A in Rockefeller Plaza.

[H]

And welcome to Today on this Tuesday morning, everyone. I'm Katie Courreck.

[Rebecca Krause]

When the show started taping, I have no idea what's about to happen today.

[H]

In part two of our series on marital anger, we're going to look at the effects of anger on the children.

[Ellen Washington]

Once we were alive, we just barely sat down. Kirk had introduced us.

[H]

Linda and Charles Krause have been married for 21 years and are willing to admit they've had some very stormy times. Their daughter, 18 year old Rebecca, has witnessed many of their disagreements. And we'll ask her about that a little bit later.

[Linda Krause]

I just was thinking, oh, no, something's wrong. Something is wrong here.

[Ellen Washington]

I was shocked. I was actually shocked. I had to put it together. It took me a second to realize that the whole focus of what we're gonna do was not what we'd anticipated.

[Rebecca Krause]

It did not take long for me to realize, like, whoa, this is very different than what I imagined it was gonna be.

[Ellen Washington]

And seated next to her was this other woman. It was the woman who had briefly asked questions of Linda moments before in the dressing room. And then there she was introduced as a psychologist. Not just the psychologist, but somebody who is going to talk about us.

[H]

And we'd also like to welcome back psychotherapist Bonnie Maslin, author of the Angry Overcoming the Rage, Reclaiming the Love. Good morning to both of you. Welcome.

[Tim Washington]

Thank you.

[H]

Nice to see you.

[Linda Krause]

Angry marriage, that's not what we like. I was thinking, oh, where is she going with this?

[Ellen Washington]

Angry marriages. We don't have an angry marriage. What in the world is she talking about?

[H]

I'm stunned they are what I am assuming to be an angry marriage. What kind of advice would you have for them?

[Ellen Washington]

We're on live television. This isn't a local show in LA or Seattle. This is the real thing, the biggest morning show in history. So here I am, the camera's staring at me and someone's talking about our angry marriage and then explaining that we're there because we need help.

[Linda Krause]

They characterized us as having a certain kind of marriage and how to fix it by going to see this therapist who was on stage with us. And so I had a very horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach, which told me, uh, oh, something bad is happening. And I'm in the middle of something bad and I can't get out. I'm captive. I remember swallowing and feeling like I couldn't really speak. I mean, my body felt paralyzed. I felt just sick inside and scared because I didn't know what they were going to say next.

[Rebecca Krause]

I was nervous for my parents, like how, what are they going to say? And very aware that this did not probably feel good to my parents.

[H]

Have you all fought a lot during your 21 year marriage?

[Ellen Washington]

From time to time, I think there are periods when you fight a lot. And so we've had periods that have been a little tense.

[Linda Krause]

We were very close, we communicated well, we respected each other, we understood each other, we felt that we were compassionate towards each other. I had so much admiration for Charles and what he did, and I think that he felt the same way about me.

[Rebecca Krause]

What is really going on in this angry marriage or in any other? There is an invisible anger here, an invisible conflict.

[Linda Krause]

With no interviews about us, she analyzed us as a therapist and the audience knew that she was a therapist. So she had this power over us. It was terrible. The whole thing was so terrible.

[H]

You know, let me just talk to the Krauses if I could. And you all stand by for a moment. You all say that the major source of your disagreements has pretty much been finances. Is that correct?

[Ellen Washington]

The financial problems we had had vanished. This was the most secure time we'd had ever at that point, 22 years.

[Linda Krause]

Of marriage, we were happy. We were settled a while back. We had purchased a home we really were happy with, was a good time for us. I kept wondering when Katie was going to ask me about parenting skills and child development issues, which is what I thought was going to happen.

[Ellen Washington]

Kirk began talking about, we're a couple who invites the kids to watch us while we're having an argument.

[H]

Your philosophy, if I understand it correctly, has been to include Your children. You also actually sort of air your grievances and to go ahead and fight in front of the kids. Is that right?

[Linda Krause]

Well, not exactly.

[Ellen Washington]

That's ridiculous. We would never do anything like that.

[Rebecca Krause]

My mom was like, you know, no, not that. That's not exactly how it is. And I was like, yes.

[Linda Krause]

When the kids were very little, we felt that it was very important to try to not argue in front of them, because I think that's pretty scary for little kids to see their mom and dad fight, especially because they think that everything. Exactly. I felt like saying, lady, you're off the wall. You don't know what you're talking about. But I didn't. I just kept it pretty mild, and I was appropriate in what I said. I wish I could have said more, but I was, like, frozen. I could barely speak. You know, as the kids have gotten older, we have, you know, let them see us discuss different things, and we think that that's kind of a good role model to allow them to see us kind of working things out through discussion.

[Ellen Washington]

I was so upset. I actually thought about storming off in front of all the viewers across America. I didn't quite know what to do. I was baffled by it. It's important not to deny that we fight sometimes, especially when the kids were younger, and try to pretend that doesn't happen, because kids can hear that and they know that something's going on. And we felt always that it has been important to really discuss that, to let the kids know that we can go through a fight and then come out the other end and be stronger for it. I was looking for the next verbal attack, in a sense, a description that was inaccurate, trying to figure out how to respond to it, but also really.

[Rebecca Krause]

Clear that, like, you don't then want to come across as a really angry person.

[Ellen Washington]

It was like a chess game while we were on the air. You can't make this move. You can't make that move.

[H]

Dr. Mathlin, have the Krauses been reasonable and appropriate in terms of their disagreements and exposing their children to their arguments?

[Linda Krause]

I just felt an onslaught. I mean, I just felt kind of pummeled by what was going on.

[Rebecca Krause]

It seems to me it informed the Krauses. It let them know, uh, oh, we're doing something. Something that may not be appropriate for a small child.

[Linda Krause]

It was as if, you know, she was throwing baseballs at us, and that's really what she was doing. Yeah, I have. I really don't like her.

[Rebecca Krause]

I felt sad for my parents because I knew, like, how Exciting this was for them and how special. And I had a sense like, ooh, I don't think this is going how they want it to go. And this is not how they want to be depicted and not how I would want them to be depicted.

[Ellen Washington]

They're talking about us and talking about us, and then they interview Rebecca.

[Rebecca Krause]

I both wanted to defend my parents. I felt protective. I felt a little kind of in shock and. And not sure how to weigh what was happening.

[H]

What do you think about that, Rebecca? Do you appreciate the fact that there have been times when your parents have had disagreements in front of you, so you have a realistic understanding of what marriage is all about?

[Rebecca Krause]

Well, I wouldn't say that they. If they're fighting, they'll come and bring it right in front of me just so I can see. But, yeah, that they acknowledge that arguing is a natural part of any relationship.

[Linda Krause]

I think I always feel protective of my children. And listening to Rebecca, I'm thinking she really held her own. What a great kid.

[Ellen Washington]

So Karak responds to her. But I understand, Rebecca, that when you were 18 months old, you stood between.

[H]

Your parents when they were fighting so that they'd stop fighting.

[Rebecca Krause]

I think it can be really scary for little kids and even for older kids. And there were probably times when I would just be, you know, take it somewhere else.

[Ellen Washington]

This was completely a misrepresentation of what Linda had told the interviewer.

[Rebecca Krause]

No, my parents wouldn't actually try to seek us out, to argue in front of us. That's not accurate.

[Ellen Washington]

And it was a completely different set of circumstances.

[Linda Krause]

They did twist that.

[Ellen Washington]

So Kurt said, do you think there's going to be any negative repercussions for Rebecca or Danielle as they get married.

[H]

After witnessing an angry marriage?

[Linda Krause]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, how could they ask this stupid question of, is coming in between your parents at 18 months old to stop them from arguing gonna impact you in. In your marriage in later life? Like, what? Like, where is she going with that? What is her brain doing? Like, how could she say something so stupid?

[Rebecca Krause]

At that point, I was feeling kind of annoyed, kind of felt like they were using me. Kind of making a spectacle of, like, oh, yeah, how will this person be? I think that Rebecca will be well served if she can really think about what the issues might be. For example, I think this is a frightened couple, and I think when you can say that, you could really break the bond of an angry marriage, and it won't be a burden that you have to carry.

[Ellen Washington]

Man, was I upset when I started to hear that. I mean, they were not just talking about the family in general or Linda and me. They were talking about our kids.

[Rebecca Krause]

Felt like I was being used for the narrative that they were trying to kind of spin.

[Ellen Washington]

They'd put one of our kids on television and were telling the world that they might be screwed up because of the way they were being parented.

[Linda Krause]

She didn't know us. We were strangers to her. And she just had a hell of a lot of nerve and chutzpah.

[H]

Linda and Charles Krause, I think you better spend some more time with Dr. Maslin after we go to a commercial break. Thank you so much for talking with us about something that I know is a highly personal subject. So thank you, Rebecca.

[Ellen Washington]

The segment is about over, and Kirk is saying, by the way, not only does the psychologists have a book out about angry marriages, but several segments like the one we're on are going to be packaged and sold by the Today Show. And she actually does a commercial for this package. She says, get out your Visa card and here's a number. It's on the bottom of your screen.

[H]

By the way, we're making this series available on videocassette. For a copy, you can call 1-800-420-2626.

[Ellen Washington]

We're going to be part of a package about angry marriage. Oh, man, was I upset. Well, the segment ends, Kirk walks us out back away from the studio. I don't know if she did that normally, but I think she could sense that we were so upset. And the second we knew that we were in private, not on the air, we started to complain loudly.

[Linda Krause]

Why did you do that? You tricked us. We didn't know what you were going to say on the air. I wanted to make them feel really guilty and really bad about what they did to us because they knew it. It's not like they were innocent. They had an agenda. They had a topic for the show that they were then going to sell as a part of a package deal with three other similar shows and on a similar topic.

[Rebecca Krause]

And after, when it was all over and my parents were voicing their feelings and expressing some of their anger about what happened, there was a part of me that was like, oh, my God, like, here they were just depicted as an angry couple, and now here they are feeling really angry. This is not good. And kind of wanting to shrink a little, just sort of like, oh, can we just go now, please?

[Ellen Washington]

I was so upset, I didn't know whether I was about to burst into tears or scream or do something. We're going to be appearing endlessly in people's living rooms as the angry couple who were frightened.

[Linda Krause]

I was just thinking about everybody who's watching this, who knows us is going to see us being made fools of on national television. Just terribly embarrassed.

[Ellen Washington]

We told everybody about the show we were going to be on, the Today show that was going to be like the feather in the cap. And they were watching us look like idiots. I couldn't help thinking as we flew back that I'd have to face everybody.

[Eric Glass]

Now, the Krauses, they came home to a whirlwind of questions and had a bit of explaining to do to their family, their friends, their associates. But we're happy to report with the help of a lawyer, Charles was able to have their segment removed from the video package. But the big question remains, if they did not have an angry marriage, what kind of marriage do Linda and Charles have?

[Linda Krause]

Bo, in your questions to us, you asked did we have a happy marriage? And I think that the term happy marriage is something that comes out of magazines or self help columns. It's not about being happy. It's about other things, the things that we mentioned. And I think that, you know, we don't have an angry marriage. And we're not a frightened couple. We're just a regular couple. We have a regular marriage, a very loving marriage, a very solid and stable marriage. So that's what I wished I could.

[Ellen Washington]

Have said over 52 years. You know, you relax, you become loving best friends who share family. But this really, I think, really caused us to look at how great our relationship is. That was the positive thing. Thank you Today Show.

[Eric Glass]

A huge thank you to Charles, Linda and Rebecca Kraus for sharing your story with the snap. As always, this story is the Krause's experience and their views and opinions remain their own. You'd find all things Charles the Clown, including videos, songs, magic tricks, puppet routines, and even book trials for your next event, all at the link on our website, snapjudgment.org Dr. Bonnie Maslin and the Today show did not respond to our request for comment about this story. The piece was scored by Dirk Schwarzoff, was edited by Regina Bediaco, and Anna Sussman was produced by Bo Walsh. Now, if you missed even a moment, no. But an entire world of SNAP storytelling awaits. In fact, we recently dropped a brand new series diving into the world of incarcerated wounded firefighters battling the flames in California. It's hosted by our own Anna Sussman. It's called Fire Escape on podcast platforms everywhere right now. KQED in San Francisco is SNAP's orbiting hall of Justice. On Team SNAP, the union representatives, producers, artists, editors and engineers are members of the national association of Broadcast Employees and Technicians, Communications workers of America, AFL CIO Local 51. Snap is brought to you by the team that loves the circus. Except for the uber producer, Mr. Mark Ristich. He's jealous of the clowns. So there's Nancy Lopez, Pat Mercedi, Miller, Anna Sussman, Renzo Gorio, John Facilitator, Shayna Sheely Taylor, Cot Flo, Wylie, Bo Walsh, Marisa Dodge, David Exume and Regina Bediaco. Understand this is not the news. No way is this the news. In fact, the mad Daddy can make you jump. Jump right after the Daddy Mac makes you jump. Jump. And you would still not be as far away from the news as this is. But this is PR X.