Ego Nwodim is a Giver

Summary

Summary of "Ego Nwodim is a Giver" Episode of So True with Caleb Hearon

Podcast Information:

• Title: So True with Caleb Hearon
• Host/Author: Headgum
• Episode: Ego Nwodim is a Giver
• Release Date: July 31, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of So True with Caleb Hearon, host Caleb Hearon teams up with the talented comedian Ego Nwodim to delve into topics ranging from the pressures of fame and social media to the importance of empathy and genuine relationships. The conversation blends humor with insightful reflections, offering listeners a candid look into the lives of two beloved figures in the comedy world.

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Navigating Fame and Social Media Pressure

[03:01] Ego Nwodim: "I'm gonna go have a little, like, summer something. I'm gonna go somewhere and do something summary. If my life depends on it."

Caleb and Ego discuss the challenges that come with increased visibility, especially in the age of social media. They candidly share their experiences of being recognized in public, the pressure to maintain a certain image online, and the impact this scrutiny has on their personal well-being.

[10:18] Ego Nwodim: "What is so true to me is that above all else, your relationships are the most important thing in your life, period."

Ego emphasizes the primacy of personal relationships over professional success or public approval, highlighting the need to prioritize genuine connections amidst the chaos of fame.

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The Dynamics of Being Givers vs. Takers

[08:51] Caleb Hearon: "This is the least they could do for you. Give back to a giver."

The duo explores the concept of givers and takers within society, advocating for a culture that values altruism and empathy. They humorously critique the prevalent "taker" mentality, urging listeners to embrace generosity and support one another.

[09:18] Caleb Hearon: "A culture that's really talking a lot about takers."

Ego and Caleb highlight the societal shift towards competitive individualism and stress the importance of fostering a supportive and giving community.

---

Personal Journeys in Comedy and Friendship

[06:31] Ego Nwodim: "We are doing everything laughing up top."

Ego shares anecdotes about their collaborative efforts in comedy, including their chemistry on set and mutual support in creative endeavors. They reminisce about their early meetings and the serendipitous nature of their friendship.

[22:16] Caleb Hearon: "We all make peace. Right? Like, I look back and go, not getting that job twice was two huge good things for me."

Caleb reflects on his own journey in the entertainment industry, discussing resilience and the positive outcomes that can arise from setbacks.

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Balancing Personal Beliefs and Public Personas

[34:14] Ego Nwodim: "I'm Christian light... I am absolutely a person of faith. I love Jesus."

Ego delves into her spiritual beliefs, navigating the complexities of identifying as a Christian while advocating for a more inclusive and compassionate interpretation of faith. The conversation touches on reclaiming religious identity from harmful stereotypes and aligning personal spirituality with authentic values.

[43:14] Caleb Hearon: "I think that's the way you move through things. Going the way you didn't expect or going perfectly."

Caleb and Ego discuss the fluidity of personal beliefs and the importance of evolving one’s perspectives in response to life’s challenges and growth.

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The "True or False" Challenge

[66:24] Ego Nwodim: "Be to make silly money. Come on now, let's do it."

In a lighthearted segment, Caleb introduces the "True or False" game, where Ego answers a series of statements to test her knowledge. The playful banter and comedic timing between the two hosts add a fun and interactive element to the episode.

Notable Interaction:

• Caleb Hearon: "There are no moons orbiting Mars. True or false?"
• Ego Nwodim: "False."
• Caleb Hearon: "There are two."
• Ego Nwodim: "Okay."
• Caleb Hearon: "Great job! Nine out of ten correct!"

This segment showcases their chemistry and ability to engage listeners through humor and friendly competition.

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Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors

As the episode wraps up, Caleb and Ego reiterate the significance of empathy, genuine relationships, and maintaining personal integrity in both personal and professional spheres. They encourage listeners to embrace their true selves and prioritize meaningful connections over superficial acclaim.

[74:00] Ego Nwodim: "Above all else, your relationships are the most important thing in your life, period."

[75:15] Caleb Hearon: "Hot guys apologize. Let's start the trend."

They leave the audience with a mix of heartfelt advice and humor, reinforcing the episode's central themes of empathy and connection.

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Notable Quotes

• Ego Nwodim [10:18]: "What is so true to me is that above all else, your relationships are the most important thing in your life, period."
• Caleb Hearon [08:51]: "This is the least they could do for you. Give back to a giver."
• Ego Nwodim [34:14]: "I'm Christian light... I am absolutely a person of faith. I love Jesus."
• Caleb Hearon [66:24]: "Be to make silly money. Come on now, let's do it."

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Conclusion

This episode of So True with Caleb Hearon offers a blend of humor, personal insights, and meaningful discussions. Through their candid conversation, Caleb and Ego provide listeners with both laughter and thoughtful reflections on navigating fame, fostering genuine relationships, and embracing empathy in everyday life.

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Tune in to So True with Caleb Hearon for more insightful and entertaining episodes every week!

Transcript

[Caleb Heron]

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[Ego Nwodim]

I.

[Caleb Heron]

That's. Hello. A l m a.com s o-t r u e. When we implement their plan, 90% of people have a worse life than they could. When we implement my plan, they're still okay.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, so Caleb for president. It's giving Caleb hello.

[Caleb Heron]

He's running. There you go.

[Ego Nwodim]

Caleb. I got hair in my mouth.

[Caleb Heron]

Hey, honey, we have to talk.

[Ego Nwodim]

We give gotched. Honey, I've been meaning to talk to you.

[Caleb Heron]

We have to talk.

[Ego Nwodim]

We have some shit to get down about.

[Caleb Heron]

Okay, tell me what's going on with you.

[Ego Nwodim]

Where do we even begin? What's happening with me is that it's summer.

[Caleb Heron]

Yes.

[Ego Nwodim]

I love me some summer, okay? And I know that sounds like basic picture, top tier, basic bitchery, but I love summer. And I feel like I haven't got a handle on this one. And that's actually gonna go ahead and be stressing me out. Champagne problems. It's what my mother immigrated to this country for. So that I could be stressed about how fun my summer is.

[Caleb Heron]

She sort of uprooted from Nigeria.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

And came to Baltimore to let you be stressed out by being a star.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes, exactly. Precisely. Yes. She said.

[Caleb Heron]

She said ego. We're gonna work on something. We're gonna cook.

[Ego Nwodim]

We're gonna cook.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm gonna set you up so well that your issue is my summer doesn't feel fun enough.

[Caleb Heron]

I haven't even been to the Maldives. I haven't touched the Maldives since last quarter. I'm.

[Ego Nwodim]

Go ahead and say my girl, meaning my mother has done a f. Yeah, she sure set me up. But that is. I'm. I'm truly like, I gotta do something this summer.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

I have to do something. What have you been up to this summer, Baby?

[Caleb Heron]

Let me tell you. Tell me, because here's what happened.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

And Chance can verify. We went on tour at the beginning of this year. A very, very fun, very exciting, stressful tour.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And the entire tour, I was telling myself, I am off this summer, come hell or high water, baby, I am going to Europe.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay?

[Caleb Heron]

I am. I am renting a place that is frankly irresponsible. Like, yes, I am buying a flight that you couldn't even begin to justify energy. I am spending money like you wouldn't believe is what I said to myself about this summer. And do you know what I've done this summer?

[Ego Nwodim]

You ain't doing none of that shit work.

[Caleb Heron]

I am podcasting on Sundays.

[Ego Nwodim]

You didn't do Nan. One of those things on that list.

[Caleb Heron]

Mary. A beach has been touched.

[Ego Nwodim]

And that's what. That's. You know what? That's kind of like what life is. I'm truly. You make plans. God giggles.

[Caleb Heron]

God laughs. I was about to say we made plans. And what does God do?

[Ego Nwodim]

He goes, he's going to go ahead and laugh at that ass he's chuckling in heaven.

[Caleb Heron]

He's chuckling.

[Ego Nwodim]

So he, she, they, whatever, who cares? It doesn't actually even matter.

[Caleb Heron]

It doesn't matter to me, frankly. Calling God he, him to me is actually. I'm being funny.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

I'm like, I don't actually care. I don't think he's got.

[Ego Nwodim]

What? A bit.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah. I'm like, he doesn't have that. Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Not worried about gender.

[Caleb Heron]

He's the way I call people brother. I'm like, this is like. I'm kidding.

[Ego Nwodim]

I feel like you call me brother.

[Caleb Heron]

I've called you brother.

[Ego Nwodim]

You called me brother. And I you sister.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Anyway, that's. Honestly, that's what's top of mind today. I'm gonna go have a little, like, summer something. I'm gonna go somewhere and do something summary. If my life. My life, like, my life depends on it.

[Caleb Heron]

And it might.

[Ego Nwodim]

And it might. And so anyway, that's. Honestly, Caleb, that's everything. And so it was so good to see you today. And come on the pod.

[Caleb Heron]

This was a lot of fun. This was a lot of fun, honey. You have fun out there having me.

[Ego Nwodim]

Thank you, Chance. Thank you.

[Caleb Heron]

You're stronger than me because you know what I'm gonna be doing tonight is go to bed at 6pm because you and I are filming a movie together right now.

[Ego Nwodim]

We are filming a movie and we are up early. We. My pickup time is 4:15am we're up. Mind you, I normally go to bed at like 3:45. 3:45. I'm gonna be on 30 minutes. Not even. I'm gonna be. Well, no, not even. I'll get 15 minutes of sleep and I'm gonna have an attitude tomorrow. Yeah, no, I normally go to bed at midnight. Ish.

[Caleb Heron]

Same.

[Ego Nwodim]

And so I'm. We were talking about this training our bodies to wake up early tomorrow and get. I'm hell bent on getting eight hours of sleep. Yeah. If I have to take all kinds of potions and such to fall asleep at 8pm tonight.

[Caleb Heron]

Oh, I'll be drugged out.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm going to be drugged out when I tell you. Benadryl. Popping. Little edible.

[Caleb Heron]

Little edible. Little Benadryl.

[Ego Nwodim]

Just sleep.

[Caleb Heron]

I'm talking to some warm tea about it.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, yeah, I'm getting sleepy time tea. I called my mom. I was like, I haven't been able to fall asleep. And she was like, have you tried sleepy time tea? And I was like, you know what? I do have that in the cabinet. I need. Sometimes you need to get back to the basics.

[Caleb Heron]

You and I are. Okay, can I just say how crazy already in this conversation and multiple times in. In while we've been doing this movie, I will be seconds away from saying something and you will identically say about what I'm about to say.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's crazy because also our characters are so like bestie energy.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Chaotic. And someone asked. Did you hear that? Someone asked on Friday if we worked together before. That's how much the chemistry is. Chemistry.

[Caleb Heron]

We've been doing this.

[Ego Nwodim]

And when I tell you we have it.

[Caleb Heron]

We have not.

[Ego Nwodim]

When I tell you this is brand new. Caleb and I met over one hot dog. Over one hot dog in Kansas City, Missouri.

[Caleb Heron]

Yes.

[Ego Nwodim]

And that was that. And now we're working together and the chemistry is. I told like, you said it to me in Kansas City. Kindred spirits of sorts. You, like, called it early.

[Caleb Heron]

You had to have thought I was crazy because I want to say I met ego. I met you. I want to say 10 minutes into the conversation, I looked into your eyes and I said we were meant to meet.

[Ego Nwodim]

I think so. But here's the thing, is I'm the same kind of crazy. Will say shit to people like this. God put us here. Yeah, God put us here. And they go, okay. I mean, no, I was called to be here. Like, literally, someone told me I had to be here. But I'm like. When you said that, I go just off the strength of you saying that I was like that in and of itself is evidence that you would say we were meant to meet. Very me, very. My energy.

[Caleb Heron]

Extremely you.

[Ego Nwodim]

But we're doing. Listen, our attitudes on set have been phenomenal. When I tell you, Caleb, you are a cheerleader, you are bringing vibes, you are bringing energy.

[Caleb Heron]

I have to bring coffee. I have to keep working at it. I'm working at it.

[Ego Nwodim]

You're doing great. Has anyone told you? No, I'm a tell you. Somebody needs to tell Caleb, you're doing great.

[Caleb Heron]

Thank you, honey. I try to bring morale.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

That's what I think. I offer. I think I'm very good at my job.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes, you are.

[Caleb Heron]

But I'm like. I think I'm funny and I'm good at my job, but I think like, my job on a set is to as much as possible, even when the days are long and hard, my job is to be like, let's keep everyone in a good mood.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah. Come on. Divine. Divine assignment, by the way. By the way.

[Caleb Heron]

Given to me.

[Ego Nwodim]

I don't.

[Caleb Heron]

I know I'm on a mission from God.

[Ego Nwodim]

I feel it directly. You think I don't feel it?

[Caleb Heron]

I hope you do.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, no, I do.

[Caleb Heron]

Cause I'm sending it to you.

[Ego Nwodim]

I feel the energy. I caught a picture. Okay, hold on. I took a picture of you when we were shooting in what, 100 degree weather, maybe 99. And you were on the stoop reading a book, top of the day. And I thought I looked over. I was in the middle of conversation with two of the other actors and I said, I'm sorry, I actually need to take this photograph. Like, fully stopped the conversation mid convo. It was building. I said, oh, no, no, no, that's a picture. Y. I posted it online. I tagged. What is it? Hands. Hot guys reading.

[Caleb Heron]

Hot guys reading. Nyc.

[Ego Nwodim]

Nyc. Which they need to bring that back, by the way. I didn't realize it had been defunct. Yeah, I was like, they hadn't had a post on there in a while anyway. Who run. Whoever runs that account, bring it back.

[Caleb Heron]

And you know, they listen you. I Bring that account.

[Ego Nwodim]

Honestly, it feels like, yes, the person who runs Hot Guys Reading NYC listens to so true Pod. And so I am petitioning you to bring it back, reactivate the account, or hand it over to someone who wants to be committed to the cause.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah. And after everything you do for the culture, this is the least they could do for you.

[Ego Nwodim]

The least you could do is get that account popping again.

[Caleb Heron]

Give back to a giver. Yeah, please, let's get back to a giver.

[Ego Nwodim]

Shout out to givers.

[Caleb Heron]

Hey, first of all. First of all, let's shout out givers.

[Ego Nwodim]

No one's shouting out givers because it's.

[Caleb Heron]

A culture that's really talking a lot about takers.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, my gosh. Everyone's a taker. What can I get? What can I get?

[Caleb Heron]

Can we big up the givers real quick?

[Ego Nwodim]

To the givers. A big up.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, I've been saying.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's been saying it needs to happen. And also to the takers. Why don't you guys go live on an island together and see how that works?

[Caleb Heron]

Y' all just take, take, take from each other and let these givers give.

[Ego Nwodim]

Let the givers give, and let everyone be sort of altruistic in their efforts, because you're giving. I am giving.

[Caleb Heron]

You're giving.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's giving.

[Caleb Heron]

You're giving.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's giving.

[Caleb Heron]

I think it was giving.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm a. I am a giver. But I was gonna say that that picture I posted of you, did it. Go ahead. Did you. How did you feel? Did. Violated. After I posted it, I thought because you didn't repost it, I said, oh, no, I've pissed Caleb off.

[Caleb Heron]

Oh, no. I thought it was very cute. I'm. I'm trying to post less these days.

[Ego Nwodim]

I saw you now when you went ahead and scrubbed your Instagram.

[Caleb Heron]

I scrubbed, and I don't reshare a lot now.

[Ego Nwodim]

May I ask what. No. I didn't take it as a personal affront that you didn't reassure, but I thought, oh, no. Have I violated his privacy because I didn't ask permission?

[Caleb Heron]

Not at all.

[Ego Nwodim]

And you probably should be asking permission.

[Caleb Heron]

You and I are on a level, though.

[Ego Nwodim]

You again, Remember, kindred spirit.

[Caleb Heron]

Felt what was there. Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

What's going on? You'd been scrubbed the account. You're trying to post this. Where is this coming from? Yes, I recognize this is your podcast.

[Caleb Heron]

I will happily tell you this, by the way.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

And I don't. Don't worry. I have questions for you.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, great.

[Caleb Heron]

I. My. My situation is this, and I Do wonder how you feel about it, because you're. And I will turn it back on you, but I will say for my part of it. So much of this job is being perceived, and I'm so grateful. I really, really, really, from the bottom of my heart, feel so unbelievably lucky that this is my job, that I get to make people laugh and be on shows and film a movie with you. And, like, I really feel like this is insane. Literally cannot believe this happened to me. And also, being perceived at such a rate and level at all times is really actually quite scary to me. And really, I have a pretty deep discomfort with it's. Even though it's, like, it probably crazy for people to hear that based on the fact that I do this. Like, I put this little mic on and do this every week. Yeah, I just feel pretty uncomfortable with it, and I feel like, whoa. And so I'm. The best thing I ever did for myself was making a specific page for the podcast where it's posting of me all the time. Virginia Shout out. Virginia posts me every single day. And it's clips of me talking to the guests, and it's my little face on the thing. And so on my page, I feel like I have the freedom to go. Like, I do still post a lot. I post stories all the time, talking about politics and things and sharing music that I like. But I just feel I need to scale back a little bit on being perceived because I can see how it makes people insane. I have watched it make people that I love insane.

[Ego Nwodim]

We talked about that.

[Caleb Heron]

And I can. I can totally feel. There are times when I'm like, I will say or do or feel something that I'm like, that's not your actual morals or perspective. That is the impact of the insane, weird life that you're living, and you need to reign it in.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah. And when you say that, do you mean, like, that is the impact of the weird life you're in? Is that to say, like, you feel pressure to. To articulate a certain point of view because that's what people are expecting of you and you want to deliver on that, or do you feel like it's just warping your sense of what you believe?

[Caleb Heron]

It's actually your sense of the world, not my beliefs so much. I mean, I do feel pretty solid in my beliefs, but it's more like just like, post, like, posting something. I don't know. Sometimes I just feel the. There's this, like, pressure to be like, you should post and let people know that you're relevant. Or you should post and let people know that you went to that party or you had lunch with this person or there's that feeling because you see everyone doing it, you know, and people ask and they get excited and they are in your comments being like, I can't believe you're friends with so and so or whatever.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And I have to push back on that within myself and go like, that's not your values. You actually don't care about that.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

That is you very understandably, kind of giving into this culture of performance of self that is like, I am performing myself very often on stage, on screen and on this podcast.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

But so there are just times where I'm like, on your own social media page, you actually do not have to do that at all times. And I think the step back has allowed me to just like, evaluate more closely. Does that make sense?

[Ego Nwodim]

It makes total sense to me. And honestly, because we're kindred spirits. I'm listening. I'm going. Did I not just have this conversation with someone yesterday who is not in entertainment? But I was telling them. I'm like, it's such a strange. I also deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply grateful. Like, what a dream. I'm literally living in my dream. That's so cool. But you know when you dream that you're not, I would say, like, the details of the dream, not all the details are sort of like painted before you in that time. While you're asleep, you're slumbering, you're dreaming not everything. You're not able to perceive all that. The dream, all that exists in the dream. So one of the things that exists in this dream that I didn't think about is have what it would be like to have a social media presence and have all types of people be able to comment and engage with you. I didn't think about what it would be like to like now be like, I want to look like shit and go to the coffee shop and I'm having a bad day and I just want to go on a walk with my dog in Brooklyn and oh, no, people are going to recognize me. And it's not, oh, no, I'm so grateful. That means my work is resonating. But two things can be true and twist. Did you know that two things could.

[Caleb Heron]

Be true, by the way? Two things can be true. We just passed that. I think. I think Congress just voted on that.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah, I would say, good job, Congress.

[Caleb Heron]

You love Congress. You've always sang that.

[Ego Nwodim]

The way I'm obsessed with Congress, specifically the Current one? Yeah, the current Congress. Oh, my gosh. How much time do we have? No, it's an interesting thing to grapple with and sort of navigate. And there are worse things in the world, worse things happening, but my reality and my experience is mine, and that's what I can speak to right now. And it is just a strange thing to go, oh, no. I remember someone. I was, like, on a walk with Heidi in our neighborhood, and someone. And I was crying, and someone was like, oh, my gosh. Can I get a picture with you, girl? No. And I was like, I'm fully crying.

[Caleb Heron]

You can see that I'm crying.

[Ego Nwodim]

No, you want me crying in the photo. And I just. It was. It was interesting. And that sort of thing happens where I'm like, you know, your therapist might tell you, go on a walk to decompress and, like, go outside, feel nature, feel the air on your face. And. And then I'm like, I love that. That idea sounds amazing. But then I go outside, and there are people who might recognize me because, yay, you like my work. And I'm like, oh, no. I'm trying to have a moment and have a moment. And so it's just an interesting. It's just an interesting space and world to navigate. And it's not something I had thought about when I dreamt my dream. And it does come with the territory, but it's something to negotiate for yourself.

[Caleb Heron]

Well, and it's this, like. It's this, like. Yeah, it's like this. The overwhelming feeling is gratitude, excitement, and joy. And then there's this interesting little caveat to it that I genuinely try not to talk about, because I will say the couple of times I've talked about how weird it is to be perceived on that level, people get mad. People do get mad.

[Ego Nwodim]

And it's so crazy. And I understand.

[Caleb Heron]

It is crazy, but I'm like. I do get what you mean. I'm just telling you, this is what I'm experiencing.

[Ego Nwodim]

I understand people getting upset, but my whole thing about everything on the planet basically, is like, y', all, I'm gonna need you to do me a solid. If you don't do it for nobody else.

[Caleb Heron]

Give to the giver.

[Ego Nwodim]

Give to the giver. Give to the giver. Come to my island where we're giving. Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

Momentarily.

[Ego Nwodim]

Thanksgiving. But it's like, empathy.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Just for one moment, imagine you don't know what someone else's experience is. Like, even when I see comments online and people are so sure of things, and they're so. The way they Attack people. And they go, this person should have done that. That. That exchange should have gone this way. What I would have done is, no, you wouldn't have. You are not there. You don't know what it's like. And I genuinely is. This. This is a comedy podcast, but I'm on my soapbox.

[Caleb Heron]

Oh, they. This is not a comedy podcast. And I'm very clear about that. And some people do not like that.

[Ego Nwodim]

And they don't like that. And maybe if you want, go see.

[Caleb Heron]

Caleb on tour or go 10 minutes into this episode, I bet there'll be some. Just relax.

[Ego Nwodim]

We're doing it all laughing up top.

[Caleb Heron]

Okay.

[Ego Nwodim]

But point is, like, I would really love to see people offer one another empathy. So if Caleb Heron says, you know, there's this, like, little caveat to this, this incredible dream of mine, and I feel a sense of overwhelming gratitude, I believe Caleb has then covered his bases. So then when Caleb says, there's this little caveat that is uncomfortable and a difficult thing to grapple with or navigate, you might be able to then go, I don't know what that's like. Yes. Maybe my knee jerk reaction is, you asked for it, you signed up for it. But may I pause and go, I actually have never been in that position. And that sounds tough. Caleb is saying, it's tough. I trust it's tough. And I may want it. I may think that if I was in that position, I would respond differently. And you might, because your values might be different and you might want to be perceived everywhere you go, and that might make you feel alive. But I'm so over the lack of empathy on the Internet and also all the people going, I know exactly what happened in this exchange. I know exactly, and I have an opinion. I remember in college, this guy dated, used to ask me all the time, like, what do you think of this? What do you think about that? And I go, I don't have enough information about it. I don't have to have an opinion. And I don't need to give you one to prove that I'm intelligent. I think I'm very intelligent. But I'm gonna go, I don't have enough information on that. And I don't have to have an opinion about everything.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

And that's that. And I wish people.

[Caleb Heron]

Really refreshing.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah. I wish people recognize, like, you don't have to have a take on literally everything. And you certainly don't have to tell someone that their experience, their personal experience of their life, a thing that they literally lived is not what they're perceiving it to be not necessary.

[Caleb Heron]

Kind of not necessary. And there's also more broadly, in a, in a way that's different than just like, oh, can Caleb talk about why he doesn't want to be or why he is trying to man management of his perception in a broader way artistically. You talked, you said something really interesting about covering bases that I've been thinking about a lot culturally because I think we're losing some recipes. It's getting harder, I think, for people to write and create and be funny and be artistic because there's this thing happening culturally right now that is we're doing across the board to each other that is like filling in any, absolutely any blank or space in a statement that someone makes with a worst case scenario intention assumption of like. So if I were to say, for example, if I were to say like, oh man, I, I really hate that I had to, I really hate that to take out the trash yesterday. I like live, you know, my, my trash is really hard to get my building or something, whatever that you complain about something. Someone goes, someone goes, God, he really thinks his life is harder than like coal miners in West Virginia.

[Ego Nwodim]

No, no, no.

[Caleb Heron]

And I never said that.

[Ego Nwodim]

No.

[Caleb Heron]

And in fact, go ahead and ask me would I rather be taking out my trash or a coal miner in West Virginia, guess what? I'm taking out the trash. You know, like.

[Ego Nwodim]

Right, but you've painted this picture and you. That, that, Sorry, I just get excited. But I'm like, you've painted a picture and I'm like, that's not what the statement is. I will be on threads and I will watch. And it's helped me really dissociate from comments in general because I go reading comprehension out the window, critical thinking skills dead. Rest in peace. What is that doesn't exist anymore Because I go, that's not what that, that the thread you're responding to, that's not what the person said. Now you have created a whole ton of context that simply isn't there.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Or, and, or you're responding to something they literally did not say. I actually, it's fascinating and I can't.

[Caleb Heron]

Imagine with you being on SNL and like the reaction to that and I, we can talk about that. But actually it's funny because in snl, my first like real reckoning with this thing I'm talking about of people filling in, filling in what isn't being said with their own upset about something was actually from an SNL bit after the Charlottesville, like proud boy, whatever the Fuck white supremacist thing. Tina Fey did a bit on the show where she. The sheet caking thing where everyone got pissed at her and we're like, wow, a rich white woman telling us to eat sheet cake about it. And I'm like, I remember at that time and I've rewatched it since to think about this phenomenon, because I'm thinking about, like, culturally, what are we dealing with right now? I have rewatched it. If you watch that bit poor Tina Fey is in, at least in this conversation. I don't know Tina personally, but I'm saying in this bit, at least as. As what is written, she is out loud saying very poignant and critical things from a very, I think, correct point of view. And then eating the cake. And so whatever. You don't have to think the bit is funny. But I'm like, people acting like it was like, oh, just eat cake about it. I'm like, actually, even in the bit, she wasn't just eating cake about it. There was a whole structure behind it. And that reaction has been multiplied over the past couple of years into this place of just, like, throwing barbs at, like, anything that anyone says. I'm not even talking about comedians. I'm talking about other individual people online. Yeah, anything anyone says, you just fill in the thing they didn't say. So what it's done, kind of reverse osmosis is a lot of people who are writing and creating now are covering all their bases.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And it's getting really boring.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's getting really, really boring because everyone goes, I don't want to deal with the droves of trolls coming at me about something that I didn't cover. And so to your point, I haven't rewatched that. But it's funny because I was just thinking about that bit maybe two weeks ago because I was trying to. I was thinking about the point when I particularly a comedian, and I've seen some of them sort of just like armor against commentary and kind of go, I quite literally am not listening to you now. You have yelled and cried wolf so much that I actually don't care. I'm expecting you to be upset about stuff that I say because you've been upset about stuff that I didn't say. And I've seen and I've watched. I go, this is how that transformation happened. You guys do that enough. Someone goes, okay, I don't care. I have earmuffs on and I'm talking to my mic and I'm gonna say whatever the I want. I As a person who like, wants to be empathetic and who wants to, who has said in my personal life that I want to be, I aspire to be an older person when I get older, whose mind can be changed. Yeah, I think, like having. And that seems super rudimentary, but how often do we go like, oh, that person's old, or like my mom or dad or they're stuck in their ways. My aunt, uncle, they're 60, they're 70. I would love, I would feel like part of a life well lived for me would mean that at 70, someone could change my mind, presenting information I had not previously considered. That'd be tight as hell to me.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

And so, but I see how people go, okay, I wanna receive feedback, I want to, I'm happy to engage in an intellectual good faith exchange. But a lot of these exchanges and a lot of the comments and the backlash, I can't say a lot. Oftentimes I see it and I go, this isn't even in good faith. I don't get sense based on your comment, based on your, your post that you even watched the thing or read the thing. I get the sense that this is now commentary that is based on like derivative commentary. So you're, you're now up in arms because you saw 20 people say a thing and you're like, yeah, I actually have a take on that. And you never went and watched the thing and you never again went. Is there a world in which this person was not mal intended?

[Caleb Heron]

Right.

[Ego Nwodim]

Is there a world in which we. I'm, I'm, I'm filling in blanks. As a therapist once told me, I'm not allowed to do for guys I'm dating, so certainly we shouldn't be doing it for anything else. Even though I'm like, I know this man is doing this.

[Caleb Heron]

And when he didn't say this, I know what he was saying.

[Ego Nwodim]

I know what he was saying because I know him. We're connected. So imagine for people you don't know and are not connected to, filling in the blanks is so crazy. And so I just think that the impact of that sort of reaction to people, especially when it's unfair and it's not rooted in reality, it's not rooted in truth, just creates this unfortunate cycle where people are getting upset. Then the person who has then been the target of that, that backlash goes, I'm shutting down. And either I'm going to retreat or I'm going to double down. And now I'm just going to be an asshole. I'm committed to being an asshole and it's not beneficial. And so I often am. Like, when I see an nasty comment, I'm like, you're mad about something else.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, I'm like, something else is going on.

[Ego Nwodim]

I don't know your life because this is the Internet. And like, I don't know you. This might not even be a real person. Not to be a real page. You're mad about something your husband yelled at you today, your wife. Which is very Four Agreements of me, one of my favorite books. Which also sounds basic, but it's so it's it. I remember reading it and being like, this oversimplifies life. Like the preface I was like reading this for. And. And now I'm like, no, that second agreement, which is don't take anything personally. Everything everyone does is about them. Even when, like, if I were to point compliment you, it would simply be a function of where I'm at.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, I'm doing good. I'm wanting to spread joy.

[Ego Nwodim]

Exactly. It has nothing to do with you. And so similarly, I go when people are making. Not making sense, I go, you upset about something and it's not actually even the thing. Yeah, it's not that. And you're looking for a place to put that, and that's a choice. Well, I wish you would practice a little more awareness, but, you know, that's. And I've been lately going some of these comments I see now as then the Four Agreements speaks about invitations. And I'm like, this is an invitation at this moment.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

I can engage with you and be at war with you because you're inviting me to, as the book would put it, your hell and no thanks. Actually. Yeah, And I have to go. This is an invitation. And like, you know, someone invites you to a party you don't want to go to, you're like, no, I'm good.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah. I've talked to a lot of friends, especially in the last couple years, about what I consider to be that input about you from other people, which obviously the last couple years of my life has been in an increase because of my. The way my career is going, which is fabulous, wonderful and exciting stuff.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

But everybody deals with this. If you work at an office job, it's an input about. You could be 10 other people in your office. You know, we all in life have to figure out what we do about. And even some ways it's not directly about you. We all deal with signals from the culture about ourselves based on what cultural beauty norms and societal standards are. So everyone at all times, on different levels, in different ways is dealing with an inundation of other people's input about you back to you. And I think that when you, there's a portal to your soul that you have to choose how, who, who's manning that and who's watching that. And when you open it up to praise you, inherently it's a portal, it has an opening. And so when you open it up to the praise, you're opening it up to everything.

[Ego Nwodim]

Everything.

[Caleb Heron]

And so when that praise turns to criticism, the portal is open. And so when people get, get really into praise from other people. And this, I noticed this, I felt this feeling for the first time in college when I, you know, I've been fat my whole life, but I was around like very beautiful out gay people for the first time and a lot of thin, attractive, young gay men and, or queer people and that they were really getting much of their validation. And this is not to judge anybody. Sure. But I noticed this pattern of like, oh, you're getting a lot of your validation from the positive input being sent to your portal from other people. And the unfortunate thing is eventually, especially in our society, which only values you youth as beauty, that's going to either stop, which is the best case scenario, or turn negative, which is the worst case scenario. Because you've opened the portal.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

And so this way that you protect your soul from this constant, and I think perhaps maybe even like most importantly from like societal signals to you about who you are and what your worth is, the way that you protect that is the most important thing because it's, it's, it's, it affects your happiness, it affects the way you're open to treating other people. The invitations that you put out, I'm trying even on my worst day to put out an invitation of like, I would really like everyone around me to feel really happy and good about themselves. But like, not everyone is doing that. So a lot of invitations are negative. And the way you protect that, I think I've, it comes down to like one of the few things that I'm like, this is the determinant of like whether or not you have a happy life.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

Do you know what I mean?

[Ego Nwodim]

Absolutely. And it's hard, it's not easy. Like, who doesn't want to personalize a compliment and go, wow, I really, I do look good, or wow, I am really funny. This person said I'm funny. That means something to me. But like you say, once you accept the praise, you're opening yourself up to the criticism and you are vulnerable then to that. And it's kind of impossible to engage with one and not the other. So you actually have to go, I'm not personalizing any of this with my work, too. I go, it's really lovely when people like. It resonates with them. And that's kind of how I go. That makes me so happy that that resonates with you very. But it's like, thank you. Remember him? Like, thank you so much. I can't let that penetrate, penetrate my psyche or my heart or my soul. Because there's been times on SNL where I'm like, man, I feel like nothing I'm doing is working or even making it to air. So now I feel forgotten. But if. If my life's blood and, like, my lifeline and my oxygen is compliments and people going, oh, I love that sketch you just did on Saturday. And like, I go through a stretch of like six weeks of not having anything on. I'm like, dying. I'm on life support.

[Caleb Heron]

Where's my. Where's my happy? Where's my good? Where's my oxygen?

[Ego Nwodim]

My blood? I need? That's the thing that keeps me alive. That's the thing that makes me feel good about myself. And so I'm like, I don't want to ever hand over. And it's not easy, but I don't. Because, you know, we do live comedy. There's the part of. The joy of that is getting to hear people laugh out loud in real time. You're like, ooh, it's drugs. And you're like, okay, they're laughing, we're rolling, we're cooking. But it's like, how do I go? I enjoy that. I enjoy that feeling. But then I also know to stand guard or maintain or create a boundary around myself where I go. But I can't let that inform me in terms of my own self worth and my own talent and my own skill and so on and so forth. But it's not easy. And it's like a. It's a. You know, Keenan said something to me a long time ago, and I've said this before, but Keenan really early on in my time at snl. And I can't remember what it was pertaining to. I don't think anything had happened. But he was just like, oh, the comments are noise. It's noise. And so I have his voice in my head. That's a good voice. I have his voice in my head being like. Like, it's noise. You don't have to. Even the good it's all noise.

[Caleb Heron]

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[Ego Nwodim]

And so as a person who likes to sit in her apartment in silence, I go that's an easy thing to kind of separate myself from like okay, no thank you to the noise. But it's a lifelong journey in that regard. And by the way, not to sound woo woo, but your girl is very Woo woo.

[Caleb Heron]

I know you are. And in fact, I have a question about that very soon.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah, okay. Woo woo. I'm something I'm like slowly coming to terms with because we never arrive. I'm beginning to really understand is like, that will just be in process till I die.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

So that's. It's not going to be a thing I master because it's like a very human experience.

[Caleb Heron]

Well, I think I wanted to ask you about being woo woo and. And being in process until you die. And I'm gonna reference a thing that we talked about privately that obviously we will cut if you're not digging it.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

But you said to me the other day we were chit chatting at work about something.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And you were talking about. You're like, oh, I mean, you know, I'm. I'm trying to stop saying this, but I'm Christian light. And I was very intrigued by that. Grew up in, like, a very intense Christian situation. Not my household, luckily, but like my community for sure. And my mom's been on the show multiple times and people know that's not Kelly's vibe, but it was definitely the. Everything surrounding us.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And I, I just go back and forth with, like, spirituality and, like, where I feel like I'm at with all of it. But I wonder what you mean by Christian light and kind of how you, like, think about all of that.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's interesting. Thank you for asking me this, because I've said it and then I go, I've said it. I've said it on a podcast once. I've said it in conversation with people, and I'm like, no problem. I feel like that is a concise way to explain how I feel without us getting into it. And then I heard myself say it on a podcast and I was like, well, now it sounds like you're denying your faith or your spirituality. And I don't want to do that.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

And so.

[Caleb Heron]

Well, it's funny also, can I just say that, like, it would hit different for different people. But like, to me, as someone who knows how intense. I love many Christians. There are many great Christians in my life. But to me, what it really meant for you to say that to me felt like you being like, I'm Christian, but I'm safe, you know, because there is a context. Well, that's what I mean.

[Ego Nwodim]

That's actually what I mean. And for a while I was like, should I even say I'm Christian Christian? Which feels crazy, right? My faith is my faith. And I was like, should I even say that. Because when I. I know what people I love who perhaps don't feel safe with other Christians, when they hear that, they're like, oh, so you're. You don't stand for this, this, this, this? And I'm like, no. And that is. I. I'm trying to go, I'm safe. But then I had this, like, other thought that was like, maybe I should just say I'm Christian, because Jesus was cool, by the way. Yeah, Jesus was cool. And what if we reclaim the name? What if we take it back? I'm like, what if whatever y' all are doing over there is not Christian and you call yourself something else? And I say, yeah, I'm Christian. So I've had this thing where I go, wait, what if. Yeah, why am I. Why am I giving up the title to these cuckoo people over here who are not loving and who are not.

[Caleb Heron]

Doing good with it?

[Ego Nwodim]

Who are not doing good with it, who are not, not. Not reflection of what I think Jesus represents? And. And I go, oh, I should claim it, and you should call yourself something else.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

So it's a thing that I constantly grapple with. I am absolutely. I. I am absolutely a person of faith. I love Jesus. I'm spiritual. It's what's carried me in some of my darkest and hardest times. It's. A lot of people will go, oh, how are you so confident? Or, how are you so this. And I'm like, my family faith. My faith is the answer. That is. That's it. You and I were talking. I thought you were going to say. The other day, you and I were talking about, like, me making a big decision, and I. And how. I said I'm a person of faith. So like, even, like, my shoulder. I dislocated my shoulder, and the doctor said I needed surgery. And I was like, I won't be doing that. I simply won't be doing that. No, I can't move my arm. But I'm going to. Actually, what if I go. I'm going to have. Have faith that. And I believe in science, by the way. I come from a family of doctors.

[Caleb Heron]

You studied biology.

[Ego Nwodim]

I studied biology. I literally have a biology degree. I believe in science.

[Caleb Heron]

Do not.

[Ego Nwodim]

Again, this is what I mean. Like, I don't think. I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive. Like, I'm a person of faith who believes in science because, like, God made science. I'm like, what? What? It's not confounding to me, but for some, it is. I don't know why but that being said, I was like, no, I'm not. I'm. You know, if my shoulder was still sticking out of its socket, maybe I would understand. But I was like, I'm strong, I'm young, I fit. I was like, I have resources.

[Caleb Heron]

I have resources.

[Ego Nwodim]

I bet I cannot do this. And the doctor kept being like, surgery. And I'm like, yeah, I can't wrap my head around it, by the way. I have surgeons in my family, so it's nothing against surgery. I just was like, what if I will? And manifest that I don't need surgery. So when people would talk to me about. Be like, you need to get surgery. I'd be like, like, that's for you. You keep that over there.

[Caleb Heron]

You have surgery.

[Ego Nwodim]

You have. You go get surgery.

[Caleb Heron]

You told the doctor you have surgery.

[Ego Nwodim]

Why don't you get surgery? Telling me I need surgery even though my shoulder was dislocated. But. But I. I. Because something happened, like, last year or like, yeah, late last year, where I was like, when did you become a person who sort of, like, is so. It's not even. I wouldn't go so far as to call it. Pessimists become pessimistic. When did I become pessimistic? It was more just like preparing for the worst. Preparing for the worst. And I. And I sort of. I was like, when did this take hold? Where you stop and you go, wait. It's slow, incremental changes. And now I'm like, this kind of like, oh, this bad thing's gonna happen, or, yeah, this is probably gonna let me down. This isn't gonna work out. And I was like, that's weird. You were never like that. So I made it a point to be like, I'm not. I'm actively trying not to do that anymore. What if I used my words for good? What if I used my words for good? And I. Which, by the way, another one of the four agreements. Be impeccable with your word, by the way.

[Caleb Heron]

The four agreements massively changing your life, by the way.

[Ego Nwodim]

Quite literally. Don Miguel Ruiz, I love you. We love you. That's the author. But be impeccable with your word, by the way. When people hear that, they think that means do what you say you're gonna do. And not so much in the book, it's actually like, you know, your words can create realities, and that's what we're getting. Woo woo. But your words can create realities. And so I was like, like, you know, you could use your words for dark magic, for light magic, whatever you want. And I'm like, what if I just believe that I don't need surgery?

[Caleb Heron]

Also, I think we've got to get to a space. By the way, there are so many things that aren't said there that. That are probably true, right? Where it's like, if you were in excruciating pain or if it was something other than a shoulder, like a chest, or like, there are all these other realities where maybe you would feel differently about it, but in this context where you're not telling someone else, hey, you don't go get shoulder surgery, trust in God. But if you're saying, for me, I know the pain level, I know what I believe in, I know what resources and time I have to address this, it's like, what is the problem with that? Because, by the way, if you try that for a while and it doesn't work, you can go get the surgery, by the way.

[Ego Nwodim]

Literally, yes. So then, like, I went and got a second opinion, and he was like, you don't. I don't think it got it late in the game, too. But this is like me going, I will do everything. I will do physical therapy. Like, before I even saw the doctor, because her schedule was booked. I found a physical therapist immediately because I knew, like, you don't wait on that. Because I had a back injury years ago. So I'm like, I know to immediately get a physical. Physical therapist. I'm not getting surgery, by the way. When I went to see the doctor was just to be like, mri, did something happen in here? When I fell and my shoulder was out of socket for 15 minutes, but. So I knew. So I needed to just confirm. But I. I got a physical therapist right away because I was like, well, you had this injury and your shoulder popped out of socket and, like, kind of hurts right now. So you should definitely, no matter what, you should be in physical therapy for it. And so I was like, I'm so committed to this process of physical therapy, doing my little exercises on my own, when I got a second opinion, so late game. And this doctor was like, you don't. I don't think you need surgery. And here's why. And I'm like, well, of course you're telling me what I like to hear. So I love you fully have a crush on you now because you told.

[Caleb Heron]

Me what I wanted to hear. You've done the most powerful thing someone can do, which is affirm my viewpoint.

[Ego Nwodim]

Thank you. I love you. Now. I think this is my husband, but anyway, so. But this is my thing. When he then Explained, like, what's cool is he explained to me what the surgery was and how long it would take to recover, which is. I had heard a different thing with the initial doctor who's fantastic there. All these doctors I'm getting to see are amazing, honestly. And the thing about medicine is that there's, like, one doctor will see one thing, one doctor will have a different perspective. I've been told I should get a third opinion. Don't. Nobody got time for that. I'm not getting a third opinion. Someone has told me what I want to hear. I'm stopping.

[Caleb Heron]

I found the answer.

[Ego Nwodim]

Thank you.

[Caleb Heron]

I found the answer I needed. Thank you. But truly, me Googling symptoms, by the way, I'll Google symptoms, and the first three things will be horrifying, and the fourth one will be like, you're fine. Drink water. And I'm like, finally.

[Ego Nwodim]

That's what I'm talking.

[Caleb Heron]

The truth comes out.

[Ego Nwodim]

You're fine.

[Caleb Heron]

Mayo Clinic is hacked.

[Ego Nwodim]

Exactly. Shout out to Reddit. But I'm like, fully. Like, a Nigerian would be like, put Vaseline on your shoulder. It'll be fine. I'm like, very good. That's what I like.

[Caleb Heron]

I like that.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah, I have Vaseline. I will do that every night. No, but I. He explained the surgery, and I did. It was this, like, really beautiful thing. I feel, like, internally, where I was like, now I'm not, like, resisting surgery. And so when I say I'm not gonna get it, and I bet I can heal without it, I just had a hunch. And then my friend who's a physical therapist again late in the game, was like, you don't need surgery. Like, surgery is only this for the shoulder specifically. And with the injury you had, it's like, a successful surgery is considered, like, restoring 90% mobility or 80 or something. And she's like, I don't. You either get surgery to restore range of motion or for pain.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

You're not in pain anymore. And I think your range of motion can return by just getting stretched the f out by a pt. And it's not pleasant. Let me be clear. And surgery would be a quite cool fix. I just was like, I can't wrap my head around this procedure. Then the second doctor explained it to me, explained the recovery time. It sounded just. I could wrap my head around it more. It was like, oh, four months. And then I'm back to 100, and, oh, this is. You're connecting this thing to this thing. Okay. And because of that, I go, okay. If it comes down to it. And I Want surgery. Fine.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

But for now, I've decided, like, I'm going to trust that I can heal.

[Caleb Heron]

Surgery will be there.

[Ego Nwodim]

Surgery will be there.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

And that's actually called also his vibe. So I'm just trying to. I'm trying to be mindful of my words in general in these days. And I'm not perfect at it. I'm so bad at it, but I'm trying. And that's something.

[Caleb Heron]

Caleb, it is something. You also said something earlier that I really liked and I have been thinking a lot about, which is when you're like, some of these, some of these people that would maybe lead with Christian should just call themselves something else. I've actually really enjoyed that a lot of the, like, super intense right wing people have started just calling themselves patriots. I'm like, actually, actually, I like that because I'm like, you know what? That is your primary number one concern.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

Is that you believe in a superior white America that you would like to return to, whatever that means. And that is your number one thing. And I actually really like that you're identifying that about yourself because you're not Christians first and foremost, and your behaviors are not Christian. And I actually, as someone who has a lot of complicated relation, like complicated feelings and a complicated relationship with Christianity and with many Christians in my early life.

[Ego Nwodim]

Life.

[Caleb Heron]

Many cool Christians in my life now, and some cool from my early life, but it was skewed in the wrong direction.

[Ego Nwodim]

Right.

[Caleb Heron]

But as someone who has those feelings, I'm like, I actually really like that we're getting. That we're getting specific about this.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

Because a lot of the behaviors that are going on in this allegedly Christian country and this like, especially with, like, prosperity Gospel. Prosperity gospel to me in general, I'm like, that is certainly not the Christianity that like, the Christians I know who truly feel Christ, like, like is not anything that they're trafficking in. And so I'm like, I actually really like that you guys are going with patriot. I think run with that.

[Ego Nwodim]

I think that's a good title. I mean, it makes it very. It just, just makes it very clear. Yeah, it makes it very clear what you stand for and what your actual concern is. I mean, and, and what master you serve in, what master you serve. Which is like, yeah, I want this country to look this way and that's what's most important to me. And I want things to return to whatever the hell. So I would appreciate that too, quite frankly. And then that way I don't have to go, I'm diet Christian yeah, I'm Christian.

[Caleb Heron]

But please don't wince.

[Ego Nwodim]

Don't wince because it's not like that. I love you all. I love all of you. I literally love everyone. I really am. Like, I want to do everything from a place of love. And it's challenging at times, Caleb, because sometimes people really be pushing buttons and that's where the challenge is. And then you go, but I'm a love change you. Yeah, I'm gonna love you.

[Caleb Heron]

I'm swear to God, I'm gonna love you.

[Ego Nwodim]

I swear to g. You gonna get this love from me. Okay?

[Caleb Heron]

You're going to get some giving from the giver.

[Ego Nwodim]

You're gonna come, come, come over here. I got something for you. Cuz I'm a giver.

[Caleb Heron]

This is like my mom's whole deal too, on Christianity, which is my, my fa. Probably my favorite. The person who most makes me like feel good about Christianity and feel like actually that there are parts of this that are really important to me is my mom. Because her whole deal has always been like, she's never been sucked into any political hate movements because she's like, well, I could never do that. That's not Christian.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

Like, she's like trans people. Yeah. I don't. They seem like children of God to me.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

Like she's just never been able to be sucked into that stuff because she truly, first and foremost is like, well, truly first and foremost. She's like, we should all be drinking Miller Light at the bar. That's really good. But she's like, she's truly like, Yeah, I don't know. I feel like we're just supposed to love everybody on anything that feels. Not that that is like obviously wrong. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I think. A lot of, not even just religious, but a lot of like political. A lot of just like movements and gatherings in this country lately in general. The last like two or three decades have been, I think, veering more towards this course of like, vile, like winning, like very small minded, narrow conceptions of who can win and have a good life. And the people I would like to be around are people that have a very broad conception of, of possibility and who can have a good life. And I would say everybody can. Yeah, actually, everybody. Because when I say that, like billionaires are robbing everybody and keeping most of us from having a better life. When we implement their plan, 90% of people have a worse life than they could. When we implement my plan, they're still.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, okay, so can you look for president? It's giving.

[Caleb Heron]

Hello. He's running.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay. I have an idea. Like, givers go to an island. Caleb is our president.

[Caleb Heron]

President of Giver Island.

[Ego Nwodim]

Giver Island.

[Caleb Heron]

That's what they called me in college.

[Ego Nwodim]

He's giving. We love a giving partner.

[Caleb Heron]

Oh, my God.

[Ego Nwodim]

And a giving president. I mean, your mom's Christian. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I feel like your mom and I would vibe and I. Oh, you would. This is the thing is, I'm like, the charge is to love everyone. Right. And one of the things is, like, love your neighbor as yourself. But you. But here's the thing. Some people don't love themselves.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

And I don't think people realize, even people who think they love themselves, I'm like, do you really love yourself? And so it's hard to operate from a place of love when you're not able to offer that to yourself and think about all the other things you may not be able to offer yourself and then be trying to, like, show up in the world and offer it to someone else. You can't really. You're. You're operating from a deficit.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

You. You don't really love yourself. You're not really honest with yourself, so then you're lying to other people, et cetera. So it's an interesting thing. And I also am just like, the Bible kind of says that the law doesn't transform people. So to try to make anyone go, you're going to do this, because this is what is, like, not even the way God works. And so it's a matter of, like, having your heart and your spirit transformed. And what does that. Is L, V E. Come on. It's not the law.

[Caleb Heron]

It's also just antithetical to me. Like, even as. Like, so if. Even if I am not a Christian, which I am not at this moment open, who knows what might happen?

[Ego Nwodim]

Anything can happen.

[Caleb Heron]

But even if Paul. Come on. Who knows?

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

But the.

[Ego Nwodim]

The.

[Caleb Heron]

The. The idea of Christianity is that we, to me, and the way the people that I have loved, who have been Christians, that have made me want to be Christian again, or that made me not feel bad when I was in Christianity, was that, yeah, the charge is to love. The imperative is to love everybody.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

That's the charge. And that whatever is going to happen with judgment is going to be all left up to God.

[Ego Nwodim]

Honey, I don't even want to take that on. I just got to chill because I'm like, I don't want that responsibility. Yes. I don't want to be responsible for judging you. Dear God, thank God you haven't given me that assignment. It's not my business. I can't stress this enough. I don't want that assignment. I got enough. I got emails to respond to. I have texts, I have tech. We were talking about this. You have emails, emails, texts, stuff.

[Caleb Heron]

You have correspondence.

[Ego Nwodim]

I have correspondence to tend to. I'm like, that's just not my. That's not my business. But I'm like, everyone wants to, you know, people want to feel in control. It's like, I also feel like that's like human nature to want to be in control, to want to have answers. Leaders I admire, admire most in general are sort of like, this might be awful. I admire leaders who are like, I don't know.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Hell yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

We're gonna get someone who knows about that. I promise you.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes, it is not me.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, I don't know about that. We will find someone for me that.

[Ego Nwodim]

Signals a level of like, transparency, honesty and confidence and humility. The confidence and humility to be able to be like, I do not know.

[Caleb Heron]

Not sure.

[Ego Nwodim]

I don't know. That is so. Even people who apologize, in my opinion, when they recognize they're wrong, I go, that's. That is so hot.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

I genuinely think I'd be looking for ways to be like, I am sorry, actually.

[Caleb Heron]

Whoops.

[Ego Nwodim]

Whoops.

[Caleb Heron]

But you know what? Whoops. At the end of the day, Whoops.

[Ego Nwodim]

Do you think I'm hot cuz I Whoops.

[Caleb Heron]

Whoops.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm sorry.

[Caleb Heron]

She. She let me hit. Cuz I'm sorry.

[Ego Nwodim]

Quite literally. I might a man apologize. I'm like, I'mma let you hit.

[Caleb Heron]

She let me hit. Because I'm sorry. Genuinely. Cuz I atone sincerely from my heart part. We thought, you know, we've talked about. There's. There's a kind of conservative idea of parenting that's like, you should ne. Children should never see you sweat. You should never. The children should never be in charge. It's the inmates in the asylum. And I'm like, I. I just watched my. My aunt and uncle are raising my little cousins in a very. In a very nice way. It's very gentle. It's very, you know, and not a lot. You know, my childhood wasn't horrible, but like, my parents were young and broke and it. Parenting was a very new thing to them. And I think like watching my aunt and uncle apologize to their children, like have a moment and be like, be annoyed with them and then be like, I'm sorry, mom. You know, mom was in a really bad mood. That wasn't A way to talk about that. Can we do X, Y, or Z? I'm like, that is so transformative and crazy.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

And how much good that would do the whole world if we could all just have the humility to be like, to. To children especially. I'm like, we don't model so much that we expect children to just pick up on someday.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And it's like, wow, you've never apologized to them when you've gone off the handle, but they're supposed to apologize to you when they do.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes, I. And I admire parents who are able to apologize to their kids, too. It's something I was talking to a friend about recently. I don't have kids, but I'm like, it's cool to me that for you to show your child, like, I can apologize to you. And also affirming of their existence. Like, yes, they're little, but they're a little human. And, like, when I was getting ready to come see you, for some reason, I was thinking about how, man, when I have kids, I want to be able to be like, what's going on? You're having a tantrum. How are you feeling? And give them the space to articulate that. And it's again, because I'm not a parent. Easier said than done to say that I want to do that. And let me be very clear. I can imagine being overwhelmed and stressed, and it's like, I do not have time to ask this little person why they're acting out right now. But ideally, I go, you are a human. You're here. You're talking.

[Caleb Heron]

You didn't ask to be there.

[Ego Nwodim]

You didn't ask to be here. You didn't choose me. But, like, let me ask what that's about at 5 years old or 6 years old, as opposed to, like, just get in line. Get in line and do what I tell you to do. Because, like, it's. It's so diminishing. And people carry that with them. Let's talk trauma.

[Caleb Heron]

Let's talk it.

[Ego Nwodim]

We need to talk about. No, people aren't talking about.

[Caleb Heron]

Because I'm guessing. I'm guessing just based on the fact that you were randomly thinking that on the way over here. I'm feeling like you might not have gotten that yourself, but you know what?

[Ego Nwodim]

You know, now that I think about it. Hold on, hold on.

[Caleb Heron]

Wait a minute.

[Ego Nwodim]

Wait a minute.

[Caleb Heron]

Wait a minute.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah. No, but honestly, like, I was raised by, like, really lovely people who. Really genuinely lovely people who are. Who instilled excellent, excellent, I think character and values in me. And at the same time, I go, but there's things that could have been done better, but that's the beauty of it. And I think every parent, I imagine now I'm turning this into my podcast, but I do think every parent wants their kids to have a better experience than they do. So I now am afforded the ability to go. My summer is not fun. And I'm afforded the ability to go. I'm going to ask my kids, what's this about? About Talk to me at 7 years old.

[Caleb Heron]

Well, to do better.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah, to do better. And so it's. It's like, no, it's no indictment of them or how I was raised or, like. Because I also think in doing my podcast, realizing, like, okay, so everyone kind of had the same sort of experience with their dad. Some. Some version. It's a lot of overlap. And everyone's just. I want to say everyone's trying their best. I can't say everyone. I think many people are trying their best.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think also maybe many people are doing the best they're currently capable of.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

And a lot of people are not capable of a lot for various reasons. Sometimes that reason is that they don't care to. And that's. That's a reason.

[Ego Nwodim]

And that is a reason. And we gotta let it rock.

[Caleb Heron]

I am. I wanna ask you a comedy question.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

Cause you did Groundlings, right?

[Ego Nwodim]

I did ucb.

[Caleb Heron]

Ucb, yes. What? When you were. When you were, like, writing stuff back then.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

Do you remember? Like, I'm thinking of a character that I wrote. In the hundreds of characters I wrote that there was one that I was like, damn, you really. You really figured something out. You know, like, do you have a joke or a character or a thing that you wrote that you were like, I actually might. I might have done something with this.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is something. Hold on. You know what? It's not a character so much as. I've told this joke a bunch, but this is like a long journey. I'm about to take you on a little walk.

[Caleb Heron]

Let's go.

[Ego Nwodim]

So someone from UCB invited me to a wrestling match. Like a real. Like, it's. It's like the Junior League to the wwe. And I was like, I'll go. Like, in Van Nuys. I'm like, I don't know. That sounds weird. I'll go. And I went. And I thought one of the wrestlers was cute. And so then I, like, found him on Instagram, and I was like, he has a girlfriend, and this is awful.

[Caleb Heron]

Get already. Can't wait.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is awful. So then she like had posted a thing.

[Caleb Heron]

Mind you. Mind you. Three days ago at work, Eiko showed me. Showed me a hot guy with a girlfriend and goes, he has a girlfriend. We gotta get her out of there.

[Ego Nwodim]

Y'. All. I'm playing. I don't. I'm joking. She's kidding. I do comedy.

[Caleb Heron]

I know if he winds up single, we'll talk about it.

[Ego Nwodim]

But I'm not gonna be play any part in that situation. But truly, I was kidding. Yeah, but now these going to think I'm a hoe. And I am. No, I'm not a hoe. I'm not a hoe. My friend yesterday goes. Are you a now?

[Caleb Heron]

No, no, absolutely not. And you'll know if I am. I'll. I'll announce.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'll let you know. It'll be my. Okay. Yes. In the tr. Trades. Link to the trades.

[Caleb Heron]

Hollywood Reporter exclusive.

[Ego Nwodim]

Ego hodem is a now vibe switch. Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

Brain shift.

[Ego Nwodim]

Absolutely. So, okay, so her post of the. Of the. She posted him. Dear God, this woman might be listening. She could listen to your podcast. This is awful. Okay. Anyway, point is she posted and was like so happy to have found him. You know, I had to kiss a few frogs before I found this prince. And I thought, girl, you don't look like you just be kissing people. You look like you do. So I have this joke that is like, ever got this advice? Advice that you have to kiss a few frogs before you find your prince. Here's the thing. I'm just kissing my frogs. I was going down on my frogs. Reverse cowgirl in my frogs, lending my frogs money.

[Caleb Heron]

My frogs are at the house three nights a week. There's a toothbrush all of a sudden.

[Ego Nwodim]

Exactly. So what do we mean? What are we talking about? And so I remember writing that and being like, well, that's fun. Yeah, I really, I, you know, I really figured something out here. And I don't really, I don't. I like dibble dabble in stand up just because it's like a fun exercise to be like. I love making myself uncomfortable. I feel so alive. I will do things on purpose to make myself uncomfortable. And I'm like, It just makes me feel alive. So I'm like, this feels like a scary thing, so I'm gonna go dabble in this. And so that joke I remember going, oh, wow. Like if you really put your mind to this, you can actually be good.

[Caleb Heron]

That feels, by the way, the. Specifically, I don't just kiss my frogs. I beat, beat, beat. Beat, Beat feels very Queens of Comedy Tour.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, my goodness. I need to go on tour.

[Caleb Heron]

That's very Queens of Comedy Tour. Any of those ladies would have eaten that.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah. And so I'm like. And so I was like, oh, that's so cool. But that was a moment there. But honestly, like, the UCB of it all, I think, taught me, like, game, right? So, like, even getting to do sketch at snl, it's like, I remember the confidence, the little bitty confidence I felt once I got there, because I'm like, I had to come up with my audition the time I got it. So I tested in 2016, and then I got it in 2018. For 2016. I had had those characters for a very long time. Like, a year I'd sat with them. They'd been in front of all kinds of audiences. And I didn't get SNL that year, but I felt like that audition was, like, foolproof, because I'm like, this has been tried and tested. And, like, true. This is bulletproof. Now in 2018, when I tested, they gave me a week to come up with characters. And. And it did. I did. I did it. I went to open mics and tested things out and changed jokes and swap shit out. But when I got to snl, I remember being like, I tricked them. I'm not supposed to be here. I've tricked us. I fooled somebody. I'm like, I studied biology. What's happening in my office? But then I had to remind myself, like, girl, you came up with those characters in a week. You did that in a week. And so I, like, hung my hat on that whenever doubt would try to creep in. And I'm so grateful for that because I had that to carry me. Whereas if I had gotten it in 2016, I'd be like, well, yeah, bitch. Yeah, you did the same. This. These characters are a year and a half old, and.

[Caleb Heron]

And now you have a week to make a show.

[Ego Nwodim]

To make a show. Are you actually capable of that? And so I am grateful, obviously grateful I got it when I did, because I also, in that time, like, honed my. Honed my comedic voice, whatever the hell that is.

[Caleb Heron]

There's something about that gap between. Because I had a similar couple year gap between the first time I screen tested and the final time that I screen tested. And it was. It was like the first time they got me at such a point in my life where. Where, like, I needed that job. I had no reps. I had no. I mean, I had. I had. I just gotten agents through the Process and like Chicago agents who were lovely, who I loved, but they were very new to me. And yeah, I just had no, I was just like, I needed it. I would do anything to have gotten that job. And then the time, the, when I went back, even during the process, I was like, I kind of don't think this job is for you. And, but you, it was still at a point in my career, I'm like, you have to go, you have to answer the question call. And you know, we've talked about, I've talked to many people on the show and off the show about the fact that I am the, the best two things ever happened to me are that I didn't get that job twice for Caleb. But that second time, when you come back and you screen test the second time, there is just a different, like, you start to take stock of like, oh, these years between, like, I really got better at my thing, I feel more confident in my thing. I feel less like I need this any place or any job, but just that, like, this is something I do and you either want me to do it with you or you don't. And that's up to you. And you, you're looking at a million different factors for that. Yeah, but that, like, confidence and self assuredness, that comes with a little bit of time.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes, I had that confidence shift to the way I operated in my first screen test versus my second. My second, I was like, this is an honor to get to test again. But I had things I was very excited about in LA and I had just like made peace with my life in LA and was like, I actually like it. Because I was very like, I don't like it here, I don't like it here. I don't like it here for a long time. And then I was like, fine, you live here. Get over. Over it. And then truly once. And I'd be like, get me to New York, I need to get to New York. And then by the time I got snl, I was like, I don't need to live in New York. I like la. It's good. I have my people and I, I have all these things I'm excited about making. And then it was like, oh, you're testing again. Which I thought was a huge honor to get to do. And then at the same time I was like, you could just ship me back to LA tonight and tell me that I don't. Which is a very different energy than the energy I had in 2016, which was like, I, oh my gosh, I want this, this is gonna, this is crazy. But so much happened where like I had done a one woman show between that first time and that second time. That was so fun. And so I'm like, you do the time that happens. And I really do believe this is one of those, like, things happen in the timing they're supposed to. It doesn't always feel that way, but I'm, I look back at that and it sounds like you feel similarly where you go, this, that worked out how it was supposed to and in the timing it was supposed to.

[Caleb Heron]

We all. I think so. And I think we all make peace. Right? Like, I look back and go, not getting that job twice. Were. Were two huge good things for me. But there are people who are. I know we have many friends who are on the show for one year. They go, the best thing ever happened to me was that I got that job for one year. There are people that are on for 10 years that are like, I'm glad I stayed for 10 years. Like, yeah, it's with. It's like this with any other job as well that I think healthy, happy people look back on things that have happened to them in life, good or bad, and go, that's fine. Yeah, that was supposed to happen for me.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

What happened was supposed to happen.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

I think that's the way you move through things. Going, going the way you didn't expect or going the way you did expect and not turning out quite right or going perfectly. Like you move through all that stuff by just coming to a piece of like it was what it was and I'm here now.

[Ego Nwodim]

Right, Exactly. Wherever I am, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

[Caleb Heron]

I mean, you do. I am so glad that you're on that show because you have some of my favorite bits from it.

[Ego Nwodim]

Thank you, Caleb.

[Caleb Heron]

The truly you're. I have not seen something has not made its way to me personally from that show that has made me laugh so hard out loud. As much, much as many things have made me laugh. Obviously all our friends who work there are geniuses.

[Ego Nwodim]

So funny.

[Caleb Heron]

But the particular one that has made me laugh the most in the last couple of years is your standup bit.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, my God.

[Caleb Heron]

That standup character with her purse, her purse in front of the update desk.

[Ego Nwodim]

Ms. Eggie, just pacing. Ms. Eggy, man, I love her so much. Just like a nod to comedian, like the queens of comedy. Absolute nod to the queens of comedy. And she's so obnoxious. My thing with her though is like. And this is her little unique game is like, you Think you are killing. So when a. Like her mid. Her mid ass jokes and like, when the punch doesn't hit because the punch is so soft, her going sucka, it's like, suck is not a joke, Ms. Amy. You have to tell a joke that's strong.

[Caleb Heron]

It truly reminded me so much of, well, you. I don't know if you and I have talked about this, but I've talked about on the show a lot that one of my biggest inspirations is Monique. And specifically, she's incredible. Her Queens of Comedy set, where she comes out of a fucking rotating pyramid and she starts the set of a taping by being like, every fat bitch in this room should be on their feet applauding me. I'm like, that is unreal. And this character reminds me of that. Like, just brazen, like, just bold. Like, oh, I love it.

[Ego Nwodim]

Thank you, Caleb. It's so fun for me to get to do too, because in reality, when I. When I'm talking to my girlfriends, we like, truly switch in and out of character in a conversation. If there was like a fly on the wall for any of our face times, it's like the number of characters we do in any one call. Just talking to each other about life is, like, so fun. And so that character feels. And just me switching it out feels so much like I'm on a FaceTime with one of my homegirls. This is literally how that feels. And then I get to do a nod to the Queens of Comedy and shout out to Monique, another Baltimore legend, by the way. Love her. And so it. It's. It's pure joy. But it also feels like a thing you have to earn at snl. Right. Like, I couldn't come out the gate and do that in my first season. I wouldn't have thought of the concept 1. But 2 is like an audit. The audience we take for granted how much the audience has to, like, get to know you and decide they fuck with you.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

At a place like snl. And it's similar at ucb. Like, there came a time I would say, like, I would watch people as I was coming up, and I was a student and I was like, oh, my God. Goodness. If. If John Doe says yellow on stage, the audience is losing their. Now, if Larry Miller made up names. Are these cleared? Are these cleared? Okay with legal. Very good.

[Caleb Heron]

Our lawyers in the corner, it's like.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, John Doe, Larry Miller. If Larry now says yellow, they're not laughing at it. And it's like, yes. It could be the way they're saying it or not. But I'm like, some of that is, you have curried the favor of the audience over time because they trust you to be funny and they trust what you're doing is funny.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

And so that takes such time at SNL to establish. And that's another place where people have all kinds of ideas about what's going on there and how it works and who's in the writers room and who's not in the writer's room. And I go, could you imagine a reality in which you might not know as much about SNL as you think?

[Caleb Heron]

As you think you do? Yeah. Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

Because I'm going to go ahead and offer that possibility to you and suggest, in fact, you don't know.

[Caleb Heron]

It's an invitation.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's an invitation. How about that question. Please pop off.

[Caleb Heron]

What is so true to you?

[Ego Nwodim]

Was so true. What's so true to me?

[Caleb Heron]

And I have another segment if you want to think on that.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay. Okay. I'm going to. I. I want to think on that. Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

Easy. Done. Well, I have a game for you.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay. Let's game it up.

[Caleb Heron]

And, you know, we do this every episode. If I'm going to read you 15 statements.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay. I'm going to take a sip of water.

[Caleb Heron]

Please do.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

And you're just going to tell me as quickly as you can if you think what I said is true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct ego, we're going to give you US$50, which who knows what that might.

[Ego Nwodim]

Be to make silly money. Come on now, let's do it. Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

Okay. You ready?

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

The human circulatory system is over 60, 000 miles long.

[Ego Nwodim]

False.

[Caleb Heron]

True. The letter Q.

[Ego Nwodim]

Biology major. I don't believe in science. To be clear.

[Caleb Heron]

Forget science. Forget science. Who knows? God.

[Ego Nwodim]

God. Yeah. I don't need to know. Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

The letter Q does not appear on the periodic table of elements.

[Ego Nwodim]

Were these tailored to me because I was a science major?

[Caleb Heron]

I don't know.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, guys, I don't know any. They gave me the degree, but I did not retain any information whatsoever. Q is not on the table of the periodic table of elements. I'm gonna say that's false.

[Caleb Heron]

That is true. The 10 tallest mountains in the United States.

[Ego Nwodim]

That is true. As in my answer was right. No, no. You're trying to confuse you so I.

[Caleb Heron]

Can get you playing with the wall.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, go ahead.

[Caleb Heron]

The 10 tallest mountains in the United States are all located in Montana.

[Ego Nwodim]

False.

[Caleb Heron]

It's false. It's Alaska. Iceland has the most utilized Railway system in the world.

[Ego Nwodim]

False.

[Caleb Heron]

False. It has no railway system.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah, because all that water people be in the lagoon.

[Caleb Heron]

Yep. A standard piano has 88 keys.

[Ego Nwodim]

False.

[Caleb Heron]

It's true.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is pissing me off.

[Caleb Heron]

No, this one. This one would be really.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm. I don't can this episode. I look stupid. What did you bring me up here to do? Stupid Caleb.

[Caleb Heron]

Okay?

[Ego Nwodim]

Not me looking like Mrs. Dumbass. Dr. Dumbass. Okay. Yep.

[Caleb Heron]

Eastern Technical High School's motto is knowledge for all.

[Ego Nwodim]

Honey, I went to that high school. It is news to me that there's a motto. This is a big reveal. Motto. Reveal. There's a motto. Okay, well, knowledge for all. I like the way it sounds. Why not Knowledge for all. It's a magnet school you have to apply to. So do they really mean it? I'm gonna. Knowledge for all. Eastern Technical. I'm gonna say knowledge for all. Knowledge for. I'm just gonna say stuck. I refuse to get this wrong, but I'm gonna be real with you. The colors are orange and black. It's located in Essex in Baltimore, Maryland. Maryland. It's a magnet school. I was an allied health major in high school. Yes, I had a major. It's a magnet school. It's no one's home school. Blue ribbon high school. Knowledge for all. Yeah. True. False. Okay, Okay. I don't care.

[Caleb Heron]

In fact, they do have one.

[Ego Nwodim]

I don't even care.

[Caleb Heron]

I wonder if you'll know.

[Ego Nwodim]

I don't even care that it's false. It should be true.

[Caleb Heron]

It's actually tech. Yeah.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is some bullshit. They came up. That was not a thing.

[Caleb Heron]

There was no.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is some tech. Yeah. Who is responsible? Because 1. That was not a thing when I went there. They made that up since I left, and that is crazy. We need to rework that. I love y'. All.

[Caleb Heron]

Okay. There is a McDonald's in Vatican City.

[Ego Nwodim]

True.

[Caleb Heron]

False.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm so sick of this. How many more questions everybody brings me on to on their little podcast so I can look silly and stupid? Is that what is. Are you happy?

[Caleb Heron]

I'm not laughing. I'm laughing at your. Your energy, your. Your anger about this segment is truly taking me.

[Ego Nwodim]

What is this segment called?

[Caleb Heron]

It's called True or False.

[Ego Nwodim]

They need to cancel it.

[Caleb Heron]

Bulls are colorblind.

[Ego Nwodim]

Bulls are. Why would I know this? I'm gonna be a leader right now and say I don't know. I don't fucking know. The fuck. Okay. Bulls are colorblind. Yeah. No, no, let me answer. Bulls are colorblind.

[Caleb Heron]

You are the first person to Ego.

[Ego Nwodim]

I have True. I don't know. False. Watch.

[Caleb Heron]

It's true.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, cool. I got it.

[Caleb Heron]

You were the first person to give this segment the energy that I think it has deserved the entire show. I have feared every guest would respond to the segment this way. And you are just truly cracking me up.

[Ego Nwodim]

Sending me.

[Caleb Heron]

This is.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is why.

[Caleb Heron]

Because this is how I would respond it.

[Ego Nwodim]

Cuz. Why are we doing this? It's a lovely conversation. Now I look like a dumbass.

[Caleb Heron]

Not me looking stupid, mind you. Why are we asking about bulls?

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah, why are we? Who cares?

[Caleb Heron]

Oh, my God.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm not a bull. I don't. I don't even dibble dabble with bulls. Why would I colorblind. A bull says I don't see color and all of a sudden, what, they're an ally. No.

[Caleb Heron]

Like, anyway, we got like half left. Really?

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay, my bad.

[Caleb Heron]

Crystal Palace FC football club play their games at Selhurst Park. Park.

[Ego Nwodim]

True.

[Caleb Heron]

That is true. Lettuce is a member of the sunflower family.

[Ego Nwodim]

Lettuce is a member of the sunflower family. I did not know sunflowers had kin. And lettuce is a member of the sunflower family. I'm going to say true.

[Caleb Heron]

That's true.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

There are no moons orbiting Mars.

[Ego Nwodim]

I need to phone a friend. Go.

[Caleb Heron]

You know what? Actually, legitimately. Go ahead. I love that.

[Ego Nwodim]

I want to phone a friend. I legitimately love that orbiting Mars. They're out. Are no moons orbiting Mars. Okay. Because I'm not. I'm sick of looking stupid. We facetime in somebody. My friend loves space. My friend Rashida loves space.

[Caleb Heron]

Rashida.

[Ego Nwodim]

She might answer. Rashida Sheets.

[Caleb Heron]

She will.

[Ego Nwodim]

She had to. She told me she was going somewhere, but she might be. Hold on. Let's see.

[Caleb Heron]

Come on, Rashida.

[Ego Nwodim]

Come on. She's. Please pick up. Please pick up.

[Caleb Heron]

I want to hear that little.

[Ego Nwodim]

I need you. I need you. I need you now.

[Caleb Heron]

Rashida, please. It's so important.

[Ego Nwodim]

Rashida, please don't do this to me. To me. Sheets.

[Caleb Heron]

This is so tough.

[Ego Nwodim]

This is so true.

[Caleb Heron]

Rashida, please.

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, my gosh. I had to record a video for her.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah, okay, just.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm sorry. Y' all just cut this out. You don't have to cut it. Got. She. Okay, so what's the question?

[Caleb Heron]

Oh, hi, Rashida. There are no moons orbiting Mars. True or false?

[Ego Nwodim]

She. You would know this. There are no moons orbiting mars. Are there moons orbiting Mars? Mars. Call me back. Can we wait 10 seconds? She might call me back.

[Caleb Heron]

Yes, we'll come back to it.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay?

[Caleb Heron]

More tornadoes occur in the United Kingdom per square mile than anywhere else.

[Ego Nwodim]

False.

[Caleb Heron]

It's true.

[Ego Nwodim]

What? Why don't they talk about it? I don't know. I'm never. We. All we do over here is that.

[Caleb Heron]

As a tornado, we talk about it all the time.

[Ego Nwodim]

All the time.

[Caleb Heron]

Possums, okay? Possums have thumbnails.

[Ego Nwodim]

Possums have thumbnails. Possums have thumbnails. Thumbnails. Possums have thumbnails. I'm going to say false.

[Caleb Heron]

It is false.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

USC's student newspaper is called the Traveler.

[Ego Nwodim]

False. Daily Trojan.

[Caleb Heron]

Exactly.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yes.

[Caleb Heron]

The Tic Tac. Tic Tacs were named after the sound they make when Tic Tacs were named after the sound they make when you shake them.

[Ego Nwodim]

Who came up with these questions?

[Caleb Heron]

Him.

[Ego Nwodim]

These are good. Okay. When you shake them. True.

[Caleb Heron]

That is true.

[Ego Nwodim]

Yeah.

[Caleb Heron]

And the only one we have left is the moon's orbiting Mars. Question.

[Ego Nwodim]

She doesn't call me back. She won't call me back in, like, 10 minutes. I'm gonna say, it's no moons orbiting Mars.

[Caleb Heron]

There are no moons orbiting Mars. True or false?

[Ego Nwodim]

Orbiting. False.

[Caleb Heron]

False. There are two.

[Ego Nwodim]

Okay.

[Caleb Heron]

How'd she do? A good comeback, but nine. Wow. So literally one away from winning, by the way. So the whole time you're like, I look down, I looked up. One away from winning.

[Ego Nwodim]

Run away from. What have I done? Thank you.

[Caleb Heron]

You're a genius.

[Ego Nwodim]

I'm a genius in a bottle.

[Caleb Heron]

My final question for you is the one that we paused on, which is, what is so true to you?

[Ego Nwodim]

What is so true to me? There's so many things that are so true to me, but what is so true to me is that above all else, your relationships are the most important thing in your life, period. That's how I feel. I know you and I talked a little bit about this re our commitment towards work, but at the end of the day, on our deathbed, we're not going to be like, oh, I worked my ass off. It's man. I cultivated lovely relationships. In my opinion, that is so true.

[Caleb Heron]

And I know it's right. But I have some priorities to rearrange, and that's okay.

[Ego Nwodim]

Maybe for a season or two or three or four or five, you're like, I'm work oriented. And then I'm going to pivot and be like, I really want to pour into my relationships. And then you might go the other way. But I think relationships are the most.

[Caleb Heron]

Important thing, maybe for seven or eight seasons.

[Ego Nwodim]

Of your life.

[Caleb Heron]

Of your life.

[Ego Nwodim]

And this is dog years, we're talking, by the way. So it's you multiply and subtract to what is the next number? 7 times 8. What's that, 56. 56 years.

[Caleb Heron]

We impressed, right?

[Ego Nwodim]

Hot.

[Caleb Heron]

Thank you.

[Ego Nwodim]

Hot guys reading. Hot guys doing math.

[Caleb Heron]

Hot guys apologizing.

[Ego Nwodim]

Hot guys apologize.

[Caleb Heron]

Apologizing. Let's start the trend.

[Ego Nwodim]

I actually. Hot guys apologizing. I'm tempted to start the Instagram account.

[Caleb Heron]

Hashtag hot guys apologizing. Let's get it viral.

[Ego Nwodim]

Let's. I. Let's make it happen.

[Caleb Heron]

Hot guys apologize.

[Ego Nwodim]

Hot guys apologize. Apologize. Let's actually get it on a T shirt.

[Caleb Heron]

Apologize. Even more.

[Ego Nwodim]

Hot guys apologize. You know, ugly guys don't.

[Caleb Heron]

They don't.

[Ego Nwodim]

And don't give an ugly guy a chance just because you're like, he's gonna treat me better. Because they're actually an ugly guy. Will really play your ass.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah. Ugly guys. Ugly guys, randomly. They're a sneaky oh, yeah. They're a sneaky, conniving group. And they will randomly make you look like a fool way more than a hot guy.

[Ego Nwodim]

100.

[Caleb Heron]

It's crazy.

[Ego Nwodim]

It's wild out here.

[Caleb Heron]

It's really crazy.

[Ego Nwodim]

Be safe out here. Yeah, Be safe, everyone.

[Caleb Heron]

Everyone be safe.

[Ego Nwodim]

Everyone be.

[Caleb Heron]

Do not give a chance to an ugly guy.

[Ego Nwodim]

No. Because he will turn, make you seem like and act like you're the ugly one.

[Caleb Heron]

Yeah. He will make you play the ugly duckling.

[Ego Nwodim]

And it's like, sir, hey, you better stop playing.

[Caleb Heron]

I was doing a pell grant. Yeah, I was doing a pell grant when I was with you.

[Ego Nwodim]

When I was with you. And now I'm out here feeling ugly.

[Caleb Heron]

And I have played the fool.

[Ego Nwodim]

I have played the fool.

[Caleb Heron]

Ego, we love you so much. Do you want to tell them where they can find you?

[Ego Nwodim]

Oh, my goodness. You all can find me on Instagram at eggieboom. That's E, G, G, Y, B, O, o. And then you can find me on.

[Caleb Heron]

TV sometimes television and movies in a big way.

[Ego Nwodim]

And streamers as well from time to time. In a big way. And minding my business. You can find me minding my business. Most times I'm drinking my water. You've actually seen me on set. I be in the corner minding my business.

[Caleb Heron]

I have seen you do it in life.

[Ego Nwodim]

That's true. So that's where find me there. I have a podcast. More episodes coming soon. Very soon. Maybe 20. Tune in. I would love if you did. That's it. Thank you so much for having me.

[Caleb Heron]

We love you. Thanks for being here. That was a headgum Podcast Hey, I'm.

[Ego Nwodim]

Gareth Reynolds and I have a new podcast on Headgum called Next. We have. Now this show is for people with short attention spans, which is everyone. I mean, you're probably trying to skip this ad right now, but don't because you now legally have to listen to the show.

[Caleb Heron]

That's how law works.

[Ego Nwodim]

Next we have is very simple. Each episode has three shorts and segments. For instance, Lisa Gilroy and I write insane revenge Yelp reviews for callers who had bad experiences with a business. The Doughboys play a game called Meal or no Meal and Steph Tola and I go head to head on a thought provoking game called Guess that Sound. The show is as dumb as it sounds and we probably have more fun than we should, but it's a great time and you should listen or watch new episodes of Next we have every Thursday on YouTube or your favorite podcast app.