Caleb Herron (4:07)

Thank you.

Murad (4:07)

I'm, like, actually needing them bad. I'm gonna be asking for a link when we leave. Murad, how's it going?

Caleb Herron (4:12)

It's going. Yeah. Living life.

Murad (4:14)

Yeah. It's a funny thing to ask. How it's going when we're about to do an episode about immigration? Cause the answer is, hey, it's a little tough at the moment. I imagine it's incredibly tough.

Caleb Herron (4:24)

You know, Trump administration came in and within their first 100 days issued over 250 anti immigrant executive orders, policies, actions. So that's about 2.5 actions a day.

Murad (4:36)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (4:36)

Targeting the communities that we fight for. Right. Fight for families being able to stay together, people being able to contribute and be part of their communities and continue to, you know, contribute to a larger society. Right. And it's just really gut wrenching to see the level of attacks we continue to witness from this administration because not only are they coming back with the same playbook from their first administration, they've escalated it and we're seeing at times also not listening to the courts when they're told to reverse their action. So it's been, I would say, difficult is an understatement. But we're going to continue to fight forward because we have nowhere to go back to.

Murad (5:18)

Yeah. A heads up for the listeners. This is, we're talking with Murad, who's an immigrant, an immigration advocate, an organizer in New York. I don't know how funny the episode will be, but this is not explicitly a comedy podcast. We like talking to people about different kinds of things. And I'm gonna, I told you before we came on mic, like, I'm gonna ask some questions that I think, I think there are a lot of misunderstandings and I think there are a lot of things that people are confused about and even people who, I know, at least a lot of people in my own personal life, especially in Missouri, where I'm from, that they, they're not, they're not. It's like that percent of people that we could still win over about the things we're trying to talk about and the way we're trying to talk about these issues. Would it be fair to say that you're like, if I called you a leftist, would you identify with that?

Caleb Herron (6:04)

Yeah. And then leftists would say, I'm not a leftist.

Murad (6:07)

Yeah. Okay, interesting.

Caleb Herron (6:08)

It's, you know, I'm, I'm more of a common sense and like do what's right for the people and what the people want in person. Not necessarily. I have my own ideology that I think supersedes anyone else's.

Murad (6:21)

Yeah. I, I feel sometimes with leftists, in these conversations and others, it can be like a competition to be who can be the most correct. Like who can be the most proper and correct And I'm actually not interested in that. I want everyone to be okay. And I want to win. And I want to beat the people who. People who want to do mass deportations, for example. People who want to issue that amount of, like, anti immigrant. Like, I want to beat those people because I think that's fucked up and wrong. I'm not trying to win a competition to be the person who says all the words the most correctly. And I think there are a lot of people in the country, like I said back home especially, that they genuinely don't know what's going on. And they don't. They're not hearing or seeing the things that I'm seeing. They're not hearing or seeing or maybe even thinking critically about the fact that, like Trump literally said recently, and we can put on the screen, Nicole, in the edit, if I get the words, you know, not exactly correct because people dog me for that. But he said, you know, like, immigrants are like poisoning the blood of our country. That is like. That is crazy. That is like, really fucking insane and nuts.

Caleb Herron (7:27)

Yeah, It's. It's part and parcel to the way in which he acts.

Murad (7:31)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (7:32)

Normally against anything he's against. Right. So, like today's thing is Bruce Springsteen and he thinks he's a horrible person because he talked badly about him. And I think that immigrants tend to be. Who have always been scapegoated in this country. It's not like a new thing. We saw it happen when Jewish folks were fleeing the Holocaust and trying to come here. They were refused entry, which is also why we have asylum laws now in this country, which is remarkable that it's being. It's become such a lightning rod issue when people are fleeing for their own safety and security more than not because of our own country's bad foreign policy that has negatively impacted their home countries and they're seeking safety here and now. This has become a thing where Donald Trump wants to end asylum completely, and he's virtually done that by shutting down the border writ large on his own right now.

Murad (8:31)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (8:33)

So I think that the way in which you know someone always. And if you look back in history, it's always those who are the incredibly wealthy who are also parading this campaign of anti immigration because it takes the attention away from them.

Murad (8:50)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (8:51)

And right now it's the billionaire class. Right. Like there's this budget reconciliation bill that's moving through Congress as we speak right now, which is going to cut Medicaid for millions of people in this country, cut SNAP benefits and SNAP benefits, go to those who are the people struggling to buy food.

Murad (9:11)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (9:12)

Housing subsidies to help people stay housed. And all that's being cut so that we can fund a more, you know, anti immigrant policies and immigration raids that he wants to do and at the same time give billionaires more tax cuts in this moment. So instead of actually helping people, if you looked at every single national exit poll across this country the day of election, you looked at it, the number One issue that 40% of Americans who participated in that exit poll and every exit poll out, not just here in New York, but across the country, they would say the number one issue for them was the economy and affordability.

Murad (9:56)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (9:57)

40% of people. And that's why they went out to vote. Nothing he has done has lowered costs for people. Nothing he has done has helped people make it. Nothing he has done has helped people. If anything, every single action he's taken is making the affordability crisis even worse. Not just with the tariffs, but his attacks on immigrants. Right. I'll give you one example of how industries are hurting in this moment. Right. Our agricultural industry. I think people forget we have agricultural industries across nearly almost every state. It's a $1 trillion industry per year.

Murad (10:32)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (10:32)

A trillion dollars. 70% of that workforce are immigrants.

Murad (10:37)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (10:39)

And if people think food is expensive now, as they continue to raid farms like they have been in New York, where in a day or two they arrested 140 dairy farm workers in upstate New York, we're going to continue to see prices soar. And that goes even across every industry. So healthcare, we have a healthcare worker shortage. Immigrants are a large portion of that population that are workers in that workforce. The same thing with the construction industry. Immigrants are a large portion of those workers. So when you want to repair your home or build a new home, you know, we're having a housing crisis across this country because we haven't built homes in a long time. And now is the time to invest in building more homes that then helps make homes more affordable to rent, to buy and so on and so forth. Who's going to build that?

Murad (11:31)

So, yeah, my, one of the things you mentioned is like that, this, that, you know, this is the billionaires distracting from themselves. And my personal view of it is like, I think sometimes I'm a very left person and people who listen to the show know that. And we do have listeners that are not of political persuasion, which I find funny. But I'm like, welcome, welcome. I can't hurt to be hearing people talking about things this way. But I'm my view of it is like, it's not a, it's not to me. I'm not like, I think sometimes we on the left, especially the last like eight years, have gotten accused of being like, oh, Trump and everything he does. It's all the Trump thing. And I'm like, well, yeah, I feel that way because I don't like what he's doing. But more specifically, I'm like from a pragmatic approach, which you and I talked a little bit about, I have a pragmatic approach to like, I want working class people to be better off. And I think that billionaires are distracting us from the evil that they're doing to make all of our lives worse and continue to had their own pockets. And they're doing that via talking about trans people and immigrants right now. That's the thing. And I don't the view that I would love to, to help like a poor, a working class person in Missouri, for example, or Kentucky or wherever, anywhere. But specifically in these places that are going so hard for Trump and are so excited about this like mass deportation idea, which I think is very rampant in his base. Obviously it's like a big part of why he won the thing. The position I would like to give is like to look at people like Donald Trump and his billionaire friends and think that they are more on your side than an undocumented line cook in your community or a trans person who works as a barista at a coffee shop or whatever. Like to look at these different communities that are struggling to pay rent, just like you who can't afford groceries, just like you who don't get to go on vacations or own their home. Just like you like these things that all the rich people do with ease and never think about. We're all in that struggle together. But I'm wondering, like, you talked about the agricultural industry and the medical industry and I actually did have a surprisingly, I'm conflicted about it, but I had a surprisingly interesting conversation with a kind of conservative, not conservative, but like a middle, a middle of the road, like moderate friend of mine in Missouri who works in the health care industry and said like, oh, I'm extremely anti this deportation shit because the only people who wanted to work during and after Covid were immigrants. And I feel conflicted about the ways that sometimes we go, well, who's going to work these horrible jobs for no pay if we don't let immigrants stay here? I have conflicted feelings about that. But what can you tell me about like this conversation that happens a lot with immigration about like, they're. It's. It's at once. They're. They're sucking on the. The. They're sucking on the welfare. They're taking all the welfare. They're getting all these benefits. We're supporting them to be here. I hear a lot like, we don't even take care of our veterans, and we're taking care of these illegal immigrants. It's that message coinciding at the same time from the same people. If they're taking our jobs, what do we do with that? What is. What is that?

Caleb Herron (14:17)

Yeah, I think that that is, like, the biggest misnomer out there.

Murad (14:21)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (14:24)

Vast majority, if not, I would say the immigrant community contributes so much in taxes. Here in the state of New York, over $74 billion in state and local taxes are contributed by immigrant communities, documented and undocumented.

Murad (14:38)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (14:39)

That is an enormous amount of money. Our spending power here in the state of New York is $200 billion.

Murad (14:45)

Our spending power being immigrant communities. Yes, exactly. Okay.

Caleb Herron (14:49)

And the vast majority of immigrants who are contributing into and paying into taxes actually don't reap the benefits that US Citizens do. So they have no access to food stamps. They have no access to health care. If you're undocumented in the state of New York, even if you wanted to buy health insurance, you can't.

Murad (15:04)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (15:04)

So when this, you know, these false narratives and misinformation continues to be pumped out in the media, constantly talking about immigrants are taken away from. What specifically are they taking away? Because they're not eligible for snap, they're not eligible for health care. They're not eligible for housing subsidies. They're not eligible for all these things that they're being, you know, that the general public is being sold, that they're stealing away from someone else. So I think that this is another part of the problem is that we don't have reliable journalism anymore.

Murad (15:35)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (15:36)

So when you have someone like Stephen Miller going on TV and just literally lying. I'm not even saying it's misinformation at this point, just lying about immigrant communities, you would expect that the anchor would be like, well, that's not true. This is, you know, this and this and that, and it literally does not happen anymore. You don't see fact checking happening in real life, in real time, or anything. And I think that, first and foremost, you have so much more in common with immigrants than you do with billionaires.

Murad (16:10)

Yeah. That is so the reality. And I don't understand how we can't coalesce around that and Grasp that as working like working people identifying with billionaires who are telling them immigrants are destroying this country. I go, why would you ever look at a billionaire and think, that's somebody who has my best interests at heart?

Caleb Herron (16:28)

Yeah. Tell me a billionaire who started off as a working class person.

Murad (16:31)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (16:32)

Do you know any? No, I don't either. You know why? Because the vast majority, if not all of them, have come through life with some form of wealth. And that being, you know, Elon Musk, his father being, you know, stealing resources from Africa. Right. Diamonds, emeralds, so on, so forth.

Murad (16:56)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (16:57)

That is not him. Becoming a natural born billionaire. You have a better chance at getting struck with lightning than you ever becoming a billionaire.

Murad (17:06)

Probably like three times. You probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning three times in a day than being a billionaire. Because if you look, you're right. If you look back at like every billionaire's origin story, it's never like, oh, yeah, they started as a fry cook and just kept at it. It's always something like, yeah, their grandpa killed the guy who invented oil and took his patent and then moved on to his land. It's always something like insane. It goes back so far.

Caleb Herron (17:25)

So there you literally, I have not seen a self made, quote, unquote billionaire.

Murad (17:31)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (17:32)

People will say that there is always a story of how that's not true.

Murad (17:36)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (17:36)

So I think when people see, and I'm not talking about like, we're looking for camaraderie, I'm saying look out for yourself.

Murad (17:44)

Yeah, Right.

Caleb Herron (17:45)

If you're thinking about this in the grand scheme of things, how does supporting billionaire policies help you? Specifically, while every agency right across this country was getting defunded, cut or shuttered at the same time that they were looking for, you know, waste and fraud, Elon Musk was getting another, you know, several billion dollar contract from the government. That seems to me like waste and fraud. Right. Like, how are we. The guy who's cutting these, like critical life saving programs and agencies is like, oh, well, whatever money I get is not waste and fraud. Enrich me more. I'll take more tax dollars. So I think when we're talking about these issues, immigrants want the same thing everyone else does and they care about the same things everyone else does. They care about their families, faith and food. Like literally, that is what it comes down to. And I think that, you know, you're sold a story of like, they're the enemy. And it's, it's not. The more power that the billionaire class can continue to build across this country means that they have to ensure that there's division below.

Murad (18:54)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (18:55)

And even with the trans community. Right. Like, if. Tell me, what specifically is the trans community doing that is deserving and no one deserves this, but of deserving of any of these attacks that they're witnessing. Right. They're. The trans community in the United States is 1% of the population. Yeah, 1%. I think we're focusing on the wrong 1% here. It's the billionaires and the ultra wealthy who are the 1% that we need to be focusing on and asking the question of how do they continue to get enriched off of our backs. And now with this new tax scam, because they already got one under Trump the first time, this new tax scam is going to be even more detrimental to everyday working people across this country.

Murad (19:41)

I like the, I like the framing that you give of, like, I'm not asking you to, like, you know, be in solidarity with these people that supposedly have these disparate, like, needs and wants that we can't possibly understand or relate to. I'm asking you to, like, be selfish and look out for yourself. I'm asking you not to side with billionaires who would, you know, throw any of us into a meat grinder if it made their day easier and actively, in many ways metaphorical and literally do. But maybe you could help me make the case. If I was talking to, you know, you know, a middle class, maybe someone who considered themselves middle class, they have a decent job, they own their home in the suburbs of some nice enough city and some red state that, you know, some, Somebody's parents, you know, that they have gone for Trump and they, they feel like immigration is. They feel like illegal immigration and people being here from another country illegally or the wrong way or whatever is hurting them. What is the argument, what is the argument against that? What are, what do we say to somebody like that, you know, if we.

Caleb Herron (20:36)

Go all the way back to their families, journey to come to this country, I can assume that more than not many people did not come here, quote, unquote, the right way, because there's never really been a right way.

Murad (20:47)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (20:47)

Our immigration system has been broken since day one and only. Continues to get broken by the day, historically. And, you know, people just show up on a boat and get processed in and that's it.

Murad (21:00)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (21:00)

So you just come on a boat, land in Ellis island or on the west coast, they take your name, where are you going to live? And then you, you're on your way. Then eventually they were like, all right, let's be a little bit more limiting. People coming on the boats. You have to have 20 bucks in your pocket.

Murad (21:18)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (21:19)

And then that became the first litmus test of, like, who they're going to provide entry or not. And I think that when you hear about, well, I did it the right way. What was your way? I want to be educated on what your way is, because more than not, there is something wrong in the story that should not have happened. Right. We have elected official who is the child of immigrants here in New York. I'm not gonna name them to give them clout, but they often say I'm a child of immigrants. And, you know, my family did it the right way. And then when you look into it, they actually didn't.

Murad (21:56)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (21:57)

So it becomes this thing and this contention over what's right, what's wrong, who's right, who's wrong. And I often tell people, let's just look at the history of how we got here and what we need to do, actually. And I would agree with this person, by the way, that if there's one thing we can agree on, and I agree with Trump, too, by the way, on this, is that our immigration system is broken.

Murad (22:17)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (22:18)

And needs to be fixed. How we fix it, we have different approaches, but our immigration system has been broken and will continue to be broken.

Murad (22:25)

So, I mean, that's another great question. What. And that's something that's come up when I've talked to people about this thing that are. That are, you know, more on the left side or the sympathetic to immigrant side that aren't, you know, I think there's a bloodthirsty faction of people who are looking for someone to be mad at that. I'm not sure what to say to them. And I'm actually, if I'm being 100% honest, I'm not sure that I am interested in figuring it out, because I don't know if they can be won over. There's. There's a hatefulness to this issue that, like, it does sometimes feel like maybe it's jumped a shark and I don't know how to get to those people. And so I'll keep working on it and thinking about the rest of us on the way there. But, like, this idea of we all agree that the immigration system is broken, that's something that comes up. People on the right and left both say, hey, it's fucked, it's not working. What is your perspective as someone who works in this space with a lot of these communities? What is the ideal like, what would we have happen here? Would we have open borders with no regulations? Would we have. What is. What is it? What is the ideal?

Caleb Herron (23:19)

I think first and foremost, what we have to acknowledge is that a. It's broken. Sorry.

Murad (23:23)

You're fine.

Caleb Herron (23:24)

The second piece is that we need to provide people with pathways to legalization who have lived here forever.

Murad (23:30)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (23:32)

The last time that ever happened was in 1986 under.

Murad (23:35)

Whatever happened.

Caleb Herron (23:36)

Pathways to legalization, like real legalization. And it happened under the radical and the extremely left President Reagan.

Murad (23:45)

Reagan.

Caleb Herron (23:46)

So we need to actually. And that one action that he took, and he was a horrible president, too, but that one action that he took really provided about 2 million people with a pathway that then helped them build their lives here. I think, you know, we talk. You mentioned this earlier about, like, oh, you know, I don't want to talk like, people say, who do those jobs. We have a bigger issue as a country. We are not. We will not have the population in the coming decades that we need to survive as a nation. And I don't know about other folks, but having kids in this country is very expensive. So we need to figure out our. Our population challenge. And I think immigration has been that challenge, has been that solution for a long time. And so I think the first part, part is, yes, provide legalization. The second part is fix our system. Right now, the closer you are to whiteness, the easier it is for you to come to this country.

Murad (24:44)

Right.

Caleb Herron (24:45)

There are quotas on countries about who's allowed to come in, who's not. Let's take that away. Let's actually make it a fairer and more just system. So you're addressing the challenge of the people who've been here, which was 12 million for. And have lived here for decades and have lived undocumented, have no access to any services, but have been contributing to all those services. Yeah, our roads, our bridges, our healthcare, our Social Security that they will never have access to. Let's give them a path to legalization, get them out of the shadows so they are contributing more into society. Let's fix the system on how we are providing visas and then move forward in that way. You know, I don't. I'm not trying to be, you know, open borders, closed borders. I think borders are all arbitrary to begin with, but I do think that we have to have more legal pathways for people to get into the country. And, you know, I wasn't very happy with President Biden and his positions either on certain things, but one thing he did do was create more pathways he created the humanitarian parole program for Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Haiti, countries that are being devastated right now with political trife violence and everything else that really, they should have been given even further protections as nations, but weren't. So he created that parole program for them, which helped people come to the country, not at the southern border. Yeah, those folks ended up flying into the United States and had a sponsor. So that sponsor was then the person who's helping them integrate within the United States. And more than likely it was like a family member. Right. So we need to think about how we're creating better pathways to address the border challenge that we have. And then when we do create those and those work, you see 90% of people from those countries actually arriving at the southern border. So we don't have to be, you know, violent and horrific with our policies. We just need to have good solutions to them. And I think that program, which now is canceled by President Trump and is being litigated in court, was a good example of like, if you actually create something that works, it'll work.

Murad (27:06)

Yeah. So you talk about Biden, and this is another question that I have seen come up a lot, which is like, we've never had a leftist president in this country. We've never had a rat. You know, that's a conversation that always trips me up, is I'm like, look, I'm a pragmatic person. I can talk to people of all different kinds of ideas. And I really believe that on a lot of things, we, most of us can find a lot of common ground. Genuinely, even as someone who is very left, people who say Joe Biden was a radical leftist, I go, I know that's not true, cuz I wasn't happy with him. You know what I mean? I'm like, we haven't even given that a shot. So what is the, what is the difference between Obama did deportations, Biden did deportations. They were, you know, Kamala really tried to run on this idea that, like, we were strong on the border and we did better on the border, we let in less people than so and so or whatever. We, you know, unfortunately, we have a system in this country where everyone tries to make their case that they're. They're also tough on immigrants. What is the reality? Like, what is the difference between the Trump administration's approach to immigration and the Biden or Obama or Bush or Clinton? Like, what is the change here that everyone is so upset about?

Caleb Herron (28:05)

So just historically, Republicans have always been the family, the party that was pro immigrant. Yeah, historically, I Want people to go and look up the Reagan Bush debate and how they talk about immigration.

Murad (28:21)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (28:22)

And I want people to actually watch that.

Murad (28:24)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (28:25)

And every good policy, unfortunately, unfortunately, that has happened, has happened under Republican leadership in this country. On immigration, there was a schism that happened post, you know, George W. Bush, where he was campaigning, that he was going to work with Mexico and create, you know, comprehensive immigration reform and move it through, you know, the unfortunate attacks of 9, 11 moved his attention to wars and creating more havoc elsewhere, but it really did show that we then had nowhere that was going to actually champion and promote immigrants. So Obama did deport the most people ever in this country. Trump didn't even come close to it in his first term, and now he's trying to actually take that title of deporter in chief. Every administration deports people and does so incredibly violent. I don't think people understand how deportation works. Everyone's entitled to due process in this country, regardless of your immigration status. I know that that's a question out there. It is not a question to actually be litigated, because it was before. And the Supreme Court and other courts have literally said, every person in this country has the right to due process.

Murad (29:47)

This, by the way, is a very concerning thing to me that, like, this, to me, is one of those things where I go, you know, a lot of people in politics, they try and, like, people on both sides try and go. They try and position a thing where it goes, we should all be able to agree on this. And then they'll say something like, baby shouldn't be killed. And it's like they're trying to position it to where, like, they're trying to make an infallible, unquestionable statement that we should all be able to agree on. But there are some things that we should unquestionably be able to agree on. And when you've got, like, when Scalia was alive and on the Supreme Court, when you've got him saying, yeah, if you're undocumented in this country, you still get due process. It's persons who receive due process in this country. That's Scalia. Like, we. We've lost the shared understanding, I think, of exactly what you're saying, which is, like, now you've got people saying, like, no, if you're here illegally, anything that happens to you is what you deserve. We can send you to El Salvador. We can send you to a fucking torture prison in El Salvador. Not even send you back where you came from or where you. Where you, you know, have Citizenship that we can send you wherever we'd like. That, to me, is like a real shift in the way people think about what America does and how we treat persons who are in this country. That feels crazy to me.

Caleb Herron (30:54)

It is crazy. And what we're seeing under this current administration is that level of crazy. Right. And they're not, you know, they campaign that they were gonna go after, you know, the most violent people that they're gonna go after and deport people who, you know, broke our laws. And this has never been about safety and security for this administration. It's about cruelty. And that's their point. Right?

Murad (31:16)

Weren't we already doing that?

Caleb Herron (31:17)

Yes, that was other presidents already.

Murad (31:18)

If you were committing a crime, and you were. If you. If you were here without documentation and you committed a crime, you murdered someone or assaulted someone or did something violent, weren't you already being deported?

Caleb Herron (31:28)

Yes. And the other part is that, you know, data which doesn't lie illustrates that immigrants actually make communities safer, not more violent or, you know, crime ridden.

Murad (31:40)

How is that? What do you mean by that?

Caleb Herron (31:41)

Study after study shows that when immigrants move to a community, they make the community safer. And it has been proven that even sanctuary policies actually make cities safer. So, like in the city of New York, yes, we do have crime in New York. We will never not have crime, unfortunately. But cities like New York, because of our sanctuary policies, actually make our city safer because it tells people, anyone who lives here, we don't care about your immigration status. That's not our job. We want you to be an active participant within our communities. And if you see or witness or a victim of a crime, come to the police and report it. Go to the district attorney and participate within society. If you feel. If you're feeling sick during COVID everyone's like, we're only as strong as our neighbor. Yeah, immigrants are your neighbors, too. And, you know, we want people to, if they feel sick, go to the hospital and not have to worry about the doctor or the nurse turning them into immigration officials. That's what sanctuary policies are. And in cities that have sanctuary policies, they are safer cities than those cities that do not. So one is immigrants do make communities safer. And then second piece is that cities that have sanctuary policies which protect immigrants and do not collude with federal immigration enforcement simply for someone existing actually have safer cities than those who don't. So I think when we're talking about violence and not violence, it's not a thing. But to go to your original question about were they doing this before? Yes. ISIS has been in existence since 2002 when DHS got created. But even before 2002 there was INS and people were being deported under that if they violated their visa restrictions, if they violated the law. If, you know, under Biden, if you committed a crime and were convicted of the crime, you served your time. Immediately after serving your time, you're getting deported, you lose your status, you go through the process immigration, court, and then if you're able to fight and win your case, there's a number of reasons why you could, then you were able to stay or if not, you would be deported. So this is not a new concept. Deportations have always happened in this country. But Trump, what he's doing in this moment is actually not following the law, nor is he following, you know, the policies that he's supposed to. So, like, they're targeting people with status who have not committed any crimes either.

Murad (34:12)

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Caleb Herron (38:21)

So it's like if you have status or if you don't, you're, you know, going to be attacked by this administration. We saw it with student activists who are green card holders. We're seeing it with student activists who have student visas. And having a green card is pretty much a really strong protection. You're a permanent resident of this country. It's like one step removed from citizenship. So seeing the attacks that they are doing and waging in this moment pretty much is telling people like, no one is safe. And if green card holders aren't Safe, neither are U.S. citizens.

Murad (38:58)

Yeah. What would you say to someone who. I'm curious what you would. Yeah, I'm curious what you would say to someone who, who says, you know, I saw a line of reasoning from Marco Rubio and obviously then their supporter, like some of their supporters are very into this idea that being in the United States is a privilege. If you have a green card here or a student visa, it's a privilege to be here. And so you shouldn't be doing these violent protests that support terrorist organizations. Now, obviously the framing of that is so intentional and intentionally misinforming people that these, these protests, these demonstrations are not violent. But what would you say to someone who says that, you know, the. Having a green card or a student visa is a privilege and that their, their right to revoke it at any time is actually. Has always existed.

Caleb Herron (39:41)

It actually does. That's not how this works.

Murad (39:44)

Right. I feel crazy hearing this though. Right. Because these are the officials. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Caleb Herron (39:49)

That's not how this works. Even Marco Rubio's usage of his limited powers within immigration have only been used five times in US History.

Murad (39:57)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (39:58)

And the last time it was used was in like 20 something years ago to revoke Osama bin Laden's relative green card who lived in the country, who was actively participating within, like, terrorism stuff.

Murad (40:10)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (40:11)

So this is not. They're misusing the law. And that's the problem that I see right now is that I think everyone has become a lawyer and a legal expert and a constitutional rights expert. And, you know, they just hear one thing, be it from a government official, unfortunately, who is saying the wrong thing and then saying, well, that is fact. They have the power to do that and they don't. So I think what we're seeing right now is the courts actually step up and assume their role of being an equal branch of government.

Murad (40:42)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (40:43)

And I think people tend to forget that there is the executive branch, Congress, and then the judiciary. They're all equal to each other.

Murad (40:51)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (40:52)

And all have different powers. So I think what we're going to continue to see is the Trump administration and the president himself try to push the line of what their powers give them. Right. And they are going to keep trying to take more and more power. And the only thing, the only checks and balances that we have is Congress, who doesn't seem like they're going to do anything, or the courts. And in this moment, what we've seen is that the courts have stood up and said, this is in most cases of these executive orders have been unlawful or, you know, don't seem right. So we're going to pause them. We're going to put a temporary restraining order on them. So I think when we're talking about people, because I think immigrants are people. Right. We are all people. We're all human. When we're thinking about, like, is it a privilege or not, I think people tend to forget that we are all human, that we're all trying to do the same thing in life, which is live and live a good, healthy and happy life.

Murad (41:56)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (41:57)

And regardless of what your position is on immigration, what I've seen is when we have these conversations with people who may not have the same viewpoints as us, we can agree on a couple of basics. Right. One, that everyone should have the ability, the basic ability to determine what their life should be. Right.

Murad (42:20)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (42:20)

People, if they want to attain education, they should be able to do that. If they want to practice their religion, they should be able to do that without fear or harm. If they want to raise their kids, they should be able to do that as well. And that's why I always tell people, whenever I start those conversations, I was like, we're going to agree on a lot of stuff. And they're like, no, we're not. And I'm like, my values and what I care about is my family, my faith and food. Do you agree with those? And they're like, yeah. And then that, I think, really helps us understand there's a lot more that we have in common than we don't.

Murad (42:50)

I talk about this all the time and think about this all the time. That I go. Most people, regardless of the way they're voting or, like, what political movement they're wrapped up in or political cult that they're experimenting with, most people want to hang out with their friends and family, have a good time, eat good food, raise their kids, and be able to pay their bills. It really. That is across the board, documented people, undocumented people, people in small, small towns in North Carolina, people in New York and Chicago. Most people want the same things. And I find that that's, of course, the more, like, you know, I'm in this conversation, I'm finding myself wanting to talk a lot about pragmatics. It. Yeah, I don't want it to get lost that I'm, like, spiritually, emotionally. Like, when you. When you zoom out and get out of the, like, what's best for the American people in the American economy, and bottom line this, when you zoom out and think about, like, us all being human beings, of course, that is the thing that disturbs me the most, is I'm like, what? How could you watch someone be, like, someone who's been here for, you know, a long time, and you don't have to be this perfect case for me to care for you, but someone who's been here for 20 years and they're raising their family and working a job and not bothering anybody and, like, having cookouts on the weekend, watching them get ripped away by masked officers of this government agency that are not identifying themselves, getting ripped out of their community and away from their children and sent to get their fucking head shaved in an El Salvadorian prison? I don't know how we can watch that and not feel like animals, like we're being. That is absolutely brutal. And it makes me feel crazy that we're witnessing it happen right now.

Caleb Herron (44:28)

You know, I witnessed. I watched the video of Ramesa, the Tufts University student who was on her way to break her fast with her friends. Right. Ordinary, you know, girly bop thing to do during Ramadan.

Murad (44:45)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (44:45)

And I was, like, seeing her, like, I guess, waiting for her Uber and then six dudes, masked, covered, like, you don't know who they are. They're not wearing anything identifiable. Pretty much just grab her and drag her into a vehicle. In any other place, if that was witnessed, you think someone's getting kidnapped.

Murad (45:08)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (45:09)

Like, that literally is what's happening in this moment, people are being black bagged, snatched off the streets and disappeared. She was in Massachusetts and then very quickly shipped off to. Apparently she went to multiple states. And why I think they're doing that is to intentionally harm her ability to have her rights upheld in court. Because depending on where you are, when your lawyer files your petition is where the case is going to be heard. So if you file it in Massachusetts, oh, she was in Vermont. Oh, she was in whatever. And that's what they're doing across the board to other people. They did that with Mahmoud Khalil, another student who was detained in his lobby of his home with his pregnant wife who was about to give birth and then has given birth and he's still in detention, where they just continuously move you so that no one knows where you are and you have no access to your community or your family or your legal support. And how they think that that's safe for anyone if they're doing it to people who have status. Right? And we know of these stories, imagine the stories we don't know. And I think for me it really should be, I feel like it should be more of an alarm bell going off in every single person's head who calls this country home. Because if their rights are being this violated this quickly and what does that mean for us who are US Citizens?

Murad (46:38)

And it comes back to something that we were talking about earlier about being selfish and thinking about yourself. I want, I want to, I wish I could sit down every, like Trump supporting like middle aged person in the, the center and south of the country and go, I am actually not as much as I would love for you to care about Mahmoud Khalil and these student activists who go to, you know, very fancy schools and are talking about conflicts in a far away place that we've never been. I would love for you to care about that and I would love for you to care about the Palestinian people as much as I do and the genocide that Israel is committing against them. I wish that you cared about that the way that I do, that would be great. That's actually not what I'm asking of you. I'm actually asking so much, something so much more simple, which is when you look at somebody like Stephen Miller, that sociopath, talking about, yeah, we're looking into suspending habeas corpus. You don't have to be a lawyer or a law student or a constitutional expert to go, wait a minute, why would they need to suspend habeas corpus if they weren't planning on doing something that is expressively dangerous and illegal to anyone they want. You think about that and you go, okay. That has such far reaching extension beyond student activists at fancy schools in New York. If you can't care about that, wish you could, would love if you would join us. If you can't care about that, does that not give you concern that you might have a criticism of this administration someday? That they would do something else? That maybe they would come into a farm community and start seizing land for some reason, for example, and this is just some, some far off thought, but that maybe someday this administration or one like it, one inspired by it in the near future, that they would come and do something that would affect you and that you would speak out about it and then you would be in danger. This, the, the slippery slope of like this actually affects all of us is so near and so present. I'm having a hard time not understanding, I'm having a hard time understanding why people can't see the immediate danger it has for them and their family.

Caleb Herron (48:24)

Yeah. And I think that there is this like false notion of safety and security that everyone has. But I would say previous this administration, that sense of security was rightful, but what we're seeing right now, I think should take everyone's sense of security away.

Murad (48:42)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (48:43)

And even some of the, you know, the way in which that they're trying to operate in like consolidating power within states that they have, you know, historically won cases in, like they're literally court shopping. They are, they have always done this, but they are doing it even more so now with rights of people. Not policy, but rights of people, moving them to Louisiana or Texas where they know that the judges that they've appointed there will do an amazing job on siding with them. And we've seen that happen already. So I think again, this goes back to the first thing I want people to do is be selfish. Think about yourself and then think about your global community. Right. I want to also just uplift a story that recently happened here in New York, in upstate New York, like in north country, like north north country in this town called Sackets Harbor. It's a farming community. It's, you know, a town of like 1400 people. 1300 and plus, but I would say 1400. And there was a raid that happened on a farm there. And they had a warrant, ICE had a warrant for white South African immigrant who was a farm worker and had a H2A visa, which is a farm working visa. And he had allegedly done something and they came, they picked him up, they didn't stop at his house. They continued to search the entire farm and arrested a mother and her three small and her three children. One who's like, in elementary school, and then two high school age students arrested them and put them in the van and then quickly moved them to Texas. It was the local community that reached out to us, right? And we're like, this happened to a family in our community. We want to fight to bring them back. And in these cases, it's really hard to fight in moments like that, especially when they've already moved them out of the state of New York. And then it dawned on me. I was like, who the hell lives in Sackets harbor that I know? And I was like, I don't personally know them, but it was Tom Holman's community, the border czar for Trump. And the community literally fought tooth and nailed. And it was such an honor to see them do that. Where their fight. They organized a rally in their own community from their visitor center, marching to Tom Holman's home. He will downplay it and say, I don't really live there, or that's my summer home, or whatever, but he lives there. The community knows him. He knows the community. And like, people, like ordinary people who just work or live in Sackets harbor were calling and being like, man, you gotta let these people out. And he was like, I can't get involved. But it was his Gestapo force that went and did this. And I think in that community, what ended up happening is that people's eyes opened up, realizing, like, we've been sold something that is not true.

Murad (51:49)

Well, and this also speaks to all the conversations that come up. The primary conversation, obviously, that we're having today is about immigration. But the ancillary conversations that we've had on this podcast and that, you know, people are having in general about tenant organizing and what rights you have when your landlord decides that they're going to do X, Y and Z to you, even though it doesn't feel like they should be able to, and they almost always can't, by the way. We. We. And this comes back to a question that I would love to turn back on you in a moment, which is, well, we have got to know our neighbors. We've got to know our communities. We've got to talk to each other. We have to introduce ourselves. And I know for younger people, especially a lot of people who listen to the show, it is, like, maybe very daunting and, like, scary to go over to your neighbor's house and knock on the door and shake their hand and be like, hey, I live next to you and my name is this, and I want to know who you are, and here's my number or whatever, here's my email, here's some cookies I made, or like, whatever. But we've got to know each other. Which brings me to. We asked some of our listeners, like, what questions would you have for somebody like Murad who works in with these communities, in this work? And I was, like, crying reading them because so many people wrote in and just said, like, how can I help? Like, what do I do? I don't know what to do. I want to help. And it's like an overwhelming response that it's just regular people who are saying, how can I help? I literally don't know what to do. Part of my answer as just, you know, guy who talks into a microphone for a living and doesn't do anything that important is that we need to know each other and build, strengthen our communities. But what would you say to that? Like, what? How do we help?

Caleb Herron (53:16)

Just. I will get to how do we help? In two seconds. But I think even before COVID what we were seeing was a lot of isolation happening. And what ends up happening with isolation is that it breeds radicalism. So when we were seeing this, like, weird way of young white men starting to get radicalized, it didn't happen in, like, a vacuum. Right. It happened because there was no community that they had that they were part of or that they felt that they can go to. And I think that isolation always will breed radicalization. You will look for a community, and that community that you find, maybe it's an online cult, right? Yeah, you're going to find something. So I do think the first thing people should do is look for community, Know who your neighbors are. It is shocking to me that, like, I ask people all the time, like, oh, are you cool with your neighbors? And they're like, why would I be cool with my neighbors? I'm like, if you ever have a fire, you want someone helping you put out the fire right before the fire department gets there. Or, like, helping in a certain, like, in an emergency situation.

Murad (54:20)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (54:21)

So I do agree with you. I think knowing your neighbor is, like, the first step. Like, go to a community meeting. In New York, we have these. In New York City, we have these things called community boards. Go meet community board. That's like the most local level of your government.

Murad (54:35)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (54:35)

Literally, they are the ones who say, we're going to rezone this neighborhood or not. Rezoning your neighborhood may help you Stay in the neighborhood or gentrify you out.

Murad (54:44)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (54:44)

So again, get to know the people around you. Get Build community. If you can't find one, build one that shares your values. Right. Don't fall for these tricks of like, you know, like, don't join a supremacy organization.

Murad (54:59)

Yeah, first of all, don't join a supremacy organization. That's number one.

Caleb Herron (55:03)

That's number one. Number two is look for organizations like the one I run where I'm the president and CEO of the New York Immigration Coalition and we have sister organizations in 38 states. And regardless of what state you live in, you can find the list of the organizations online at the Fair Immigration Reform Movement, which we are members of and I am the co chair of. But join an organization, see how you can help. Donate. Like literally that often people are like, I really don't want to volunteer at like a community event or a rally or, you know, whatever. Donate your skill. Right? Like, yeah, say I'm going to. Do you need a photographer? Do you need someone to help you with software engineering or whatever it is that you know how to do, you know, use the tools that you have, the skills you have and support the institutions that are fighting back in this moment. Because it's hard. And then the easiest way is also donating because I think that people often think like, there's a magical, you know, unicorn or sugar daddy coming around and like blessing organizations. That's not happening. Every organization is struggling right now and making sure that they have the resources that they need to actually do the work that they need to is really critically important. And then if you don't see an organization or a group doing the work, start one.

Murad (56:26)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (56:26)

You know what I mean? Like a lot of the work that's happening right now in fighting back the Trump administration. Yeah, some of it is institutional, but a lot of it is organic and naturally happening in communities. The hands off rallies that we've been seeing, yes, there's people who are helping, organizing logistics of it, but the tens of thousands of people coming out, those are people taking action and they're organizing themselves and their community to come together. So I would say that people have power. People will always have power. We are the many, they are the few. And they are scared that we will unite and fight back. But that is how we win is by stepping up in this moment, getting to know our neighbor, organizing our neighbors, and then fighting back together. And again, not saying that you need to be a selfish person, but people are need to think about themselves sometimes and think about what you may need, but also what you need is the same exact thing, what your community needs. Needs in this moment. Yeah. So that is why it's important. I always try to bring it back to the person that I'm speaking to or the people I'm speaking to of like, what are your needs and how do we get them addressed? The people in power are not going to do that for you unless you demand it and force it to happen.

Murad (57:33)

Yeah. And it reminds me when you're saying all of that, that like the unfortunate thing and I feel this too is like you say, oh, what can I do to help? And you, you know, you kind of know deep down that you're like, God, I hope you say something easy that I can get done quick, you know, and it's, I know that feeling. And I, I, it a, it's a, it's a feeling. I think a lot of people have particularly privileged people who have. If you're a privileged person, if you have secure income and secure housing and secure citizenship and secure partnership with someone of an opposite gender and all those kind of things. Yeah, you're going to be like, damn, I hope the way to help is just easy and doesn't affect my life too much. Unfortunately, it rarely is. And so you, yeah, we're just going to have to do the hard things. Like we're just going to have to go to meetings and unfortunately that's an evening, that's a 6 o' clock to 7:30 event one night that you're not doing, you know, whatever the else you'd like to be doing. You're gonna have to introduce yourself to your neighbors. You're gonna have to go to rallies. You're gonna have to read a lot too. That's another thing that I think about where I'm like, it is not convenient, it is not fun. I know that we don't want to spend extra time reading horrific about what's going on in the world. You're gonna have to like, I, I just think like everyone can find their own way. Not everyone has to do everything. You can cut out a bunch of that stuff if you go, I am absolutely not going to a rally on a Saturday afternoon. Okay, that's, that's maybe something you can cut out of your activism. I don't know, you'll have to decide. But yeah, sometimes helping out, I would say even maybe most of the time helping out is like a little bit annoying. Minimum to super annoying and sad. Maximum and taxing. Expensive. Etc, we're just gonna have to do it. I don't that's to, to the people that are asking this, that are writing in and saying, how do I help? Don't, don't expect the easy thing. It's not just posting. Unfortunately, posting's part of it, especially if you're me. I mean, you have to post because people are reading. But, like, that's just not enough. Sharing infographics on your story is not enough. And so we've got to find ways to do more. And I'm also saying that to myself, like, we've got to do more. Is there good news? Is there any good news? We'll cut it if you say no.

Caleb Herron (59:32)

The family I mentioned about Sackett's harbor, we eventually were able to help get them released. They got out. They were reunified with their community, and it was beautiful. And that rally that they organized, of the 13, 1400 people who lived there, a thousand.

Murad (59:45)

Wow.

Caleb Herron (59:46)

People showed up and fought, which was incredible to see and witness. And, you know, while things are doom and gloom in this moment, people are still fighting and winning. So I think that that's what continues to inspire me to continue doing this work and to fight forward, because I know that it's not always going to be easy. And if I've not had the most privilege of life growing up. So I know firsthand the struggle of someone not being able to, you know, have enough food to eat, the struggle of being, unfortunately about to be unhoused. And I think that when that keeps me grounded in the work that I do to push forward. But if you're doing something that's easy, I will challenge you to look for something that's a little bit more harder, because doing that's easy. I don't know if I can. Courage, respect.

Murad (60:38)

We do it a lot. Yeah, sorry. It's most of the show, actually.

Caleb Herron (60:43)

If you're just doing that's easy all the time, I don't know how you're living a fulfilling life.

Murad (60:48)

Yeah, Yeah. I. I also wanted to ask. There's the. In the, you know, it feels like we're. We're building towards kind of a natural conclusion of the episode. And unfortunately, I'm going to dive us back into some logistics because I have more questions. But this. I. This notion that I've been hearing a lot that, like, Biden, the Biden administration. Administration. This is something the Trump administration is really pushing right now, that they're. I'm noticing over and over and over again, they're saying this message of, like, Biden and the Democrats flooded the country with illegal immigrants, illegal Immigrants because they want to create a one party state where they get all these votes so Republicans can never win again. What is the reality of. Obviously, I don't think that the DNC is having much, maybe any strategy, but certainly not a secret meeting where they say that immigrants are undocumented. People are going to win us every election forever. What is the reality of immigration under Biden versus now? What do you make of this talking point? Like what are we supposed to do with that?

Caleb Herron (61:45)

Immigrants can't vote.

Murad (61:46)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (61:46)

Like literally they just can't vote. Unless you become a naturalized citizen and then you're a US Citizen.

Murad (61:51)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (61:52)

You can vote if you're a US Citizen.

Murad (61:54)

Right.

Caleb Herron (61:55)

Other than that, you cannot vote. There is not no, like pay scheme that's happening where I'm like, hey, here's two bucks, go vote down the Democratic line. That's not a thing.

Murad (62:06)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (62:06)

It is illegal. It's a federal crime to vote if you're an immigrant. And if you're an immigrant with status, if you're a green card holder who votes by accident, you will potentially lose your status and go to prison.

Murad (62:18)

So just to be clear, also, even if. Let me break this down. Did Biden did. During the Biden administration, was there an unusually high amount of undocumented people entering the country during that time?

Caleb Herron (62:31)

So just to rephrase your question, people who were entering the United States under the Biden administration were doing so legally. They were legally entering the United States. Seeking asylum here.

Murad (62:45)

Yeah. Under asylum laws that Trump has gotten rid of.

Caleb Herron (62:49)

That he's trying to get rid of still.

Murad (62:51)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (62:52)

On the books.

Murad (62:53)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (62:53)

And will continue to be on the books. Right. Unless Congress removes them.

Murad (62:59)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (63:00)

But we also sign international treaties and things of that sort that we would have to continue to abide by. But there were a slightly higher number of people coming to the United States and it had nothing to do with Biden.

Murad (63:14)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (63:15)

It was. Because the world is on fire.

Murad (63:17)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (63:18)

Governments are collapsing because of our foreign policy. So Venezuela, we have killed them with sanctions.

Murad (63:24)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (63:25)

For. And it was actually Marco Rubio sanctions when he was a senator that actually did this like kill to the Venezuelan, supposed to impact the government, but it actually impacted the people.

Murad (63:40)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (63:41)

So the sanctions that were levied on Venezuela actually destroyed its economy, made inflation incredibly difficult and hard for people to live. Then violence started to escalate there, so people were fleeing for their lives. And if you are someone who is living somewhere, you will not leave your home. Right. Ask yourself this, why would I leave my home if I feel safe?

Murad (64:05)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (64:06)

So people fled. And then other violence was happening in Colombia and El Salvador and many other countries where people are now dealing with choosing do I and my kids live or die, and if I want to live, I have to leave.

Murad (64:25)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (64:25)

And where is there a safe place I can go? So people did come to the United States seeking their legal right to asylum.

Murad (64:33)

I also, from what I've read, and I could be wrong, because I'm not an expert at this, but I have read, I think it was maybe a Pew Research data that, like, immigration kind of grew every year from like the 90s to 2007, that more and more people immigrated here, both documented and undocumented, that we had more and more immigrants here during that time, that maybe that number tripled or quadrupled. Like, it went up a lot during those years. And then in 2007, it actually started to fall off or stabilize. And then you say that by the Biden administration had more pathways for people that were coming here. Those pathways don't give them the ability to vote no.

Caleb Herron (65:09)

And even if, you know. And the pathways that Biden created were all temporary.

Murad (65:15)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (65:15)

The parole for Cubans, Nicaraguan stations, and Venezuelans was a two year program.

Murad (65:19)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (65:20)

So you were getting paroled in to the country for like two years.

Murad (65:23)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (65:24)

Or a year. It depends. If you were getting paroled in at the southern border, it was for a certain amount of time. I saw people paroled in for two weeks.

Murad (65:32)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (65:32)

But paroled in for a year for them to figure out their adjustment and relief status. It takes you forever to become a US Citizen. If you are someone who is a green card holder, you have to have been a green card holder for at least five years. And they have to go through the USCIS process, which is submitting your application, doing fingerprinting, biometrics, a health exam you have to go to get interviewed. All this will take potentially years and years. But even to get to the green card takes you years and years to get there. So I don't think anyone has ever become a US citizen without at least 10 to 20 years of being in a process to get there. And sometimes even when you get to the end of it, you still are not a US Citizen.

Murad (66:18)

So really, truly the situation here is the statement that the Trump administration is pushing so hard. And obviously this isn't confusing for me, Caleb. I just know that they're lying to support their agenda. But I'm trying to find a way to break these things down. The statement from them is the Biden administration flew in, bust in, shipped in a bunch of illegal people so that they could have one party rule forever and they could vote for them. The reality is slightly more people, immigrants entered the country during Biden's administration because of asylum laws, because of policies and things that we did that made their country unlivable or made their situation more dangerous. So we're creating crises in other places. Then people are coming here to seek asylum. Some of them are getting it. And even through those pathways, they cannot vote. And if they ever got to a place where they could vote, it would be many years from now. This is reality. These are the processes. I don't think anyone, anyone would go like, oh, yeah, it's quick and easy to become a US Citizen. Everybody across the political spectrum knows that that's not true. So the reality is that is just a complete and blatant lie and could not even. You can't even find a way where that could be true.

Caleb Herron (67:25)

No.

Murad (67:25)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (67:26)

It's just literally, that's why it was so confusing. I was like, why do they keep saying this? And why they keep. Like, do they not. The other thing that we are failing at as a country is education. I do think that if there is one class that we should have in like, elementary, middle, and high school is civics.

Murad (67:42)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (67:42)

Like, people should know what their civic rights are.

Murad (67:44)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (67:45)

And even just learn about how people got the rights that they have. Right. Like, women one day weren't allowed to vote. They fought back and they won the right to vote.

Murad (67:54)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (67:54)

The black community in this country fought after years and years of horrific slavery for freedom and then eventually were freed and eventually got equal rights. But that didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because there was a fight to have that happen and then the right to vote. So I think that people don't understand the history, and I'm seeing this happen a lot more now where people who do are intentionally misleading people to believe that something else is happening. But immigrants can't vote in this country unless they become U.S. citizens. And that can take decades to happen.

Murad (68:32)

Yeah. I feel like there also was this. There was this conception for a long time among people on all sides of the political spectrum that, like, yeah, when immigrants come here, they mostly move to LA or New York. They mostly work in restaurants or they're in Texas working agriculturally or whatever. But we're fine with it because they mostly don't bother anyone and they work jobs that no one wants. This was like this widespread idea that I think a lot of people, not everybody, there's certainly always been anti Immigrant bias, but that I think a lot of people were kind of on board with for better or for worse. Then in the last couple of years, I have felt this sharp, really intense uptick in the idea that these are violent gang members who are being allowed to come here and take over our communities. What is the reality? This criminal thing keeps coming up, and I have a hard time understanding how people are not seeing that. Like, his whole campaign was like, we're just gonna go after the violent ones. We're gonna get the criminals. And then the number of times I've used air quotes in this episode to be like, hey, not my opinion, not my idea, everybody. But that they were gonna do that. And then immediately they're going after people and going, well, the crime is being here illegally. Even if you believe that, that's not what you said. That's not what we, that's not what you talked about. What is the reality of crime in among undocumented people or immigrant communities versus.

Caleb Herron (69:45)

Every other community immigrant in communities where immigrants live?

Murad (69:50)

They're safer.

Caleb Herron (69:51)

Those communities are safer.

Murad (69:53)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (69:53)

And that's, that's not me saying this. You can look it up. You know, everyone's using Chat GPT for everything.

Murad (69:59)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (69:59)

Chat GPT to, you know, use Gronk or whoever you want to use to, to verify this information and then look at the source. Always click the sources. But, yeah, immigrants have historically and continue to be, commit less crime and make communities more safer than cities that don't have them or towns that don't have them. I think that this narrative of criminality continues to be propelled. It's not a new trick. They've used this historically. They use it against the Italians, the Irish. Every community that has come here that was villainized and otherized and then the next community was villainized and otherized. The difference in this moment is that they are doing it in such a violent and aggressive way that it's actually putting even more targets on people's backs. So what we end up seeing is that people now who are immigrants are being victims of crime simply for them, you know, looking a certain way. And we are seeing hate crimes increase, we're seeing crimes against people increase, and then those are the crimes that are being reported. Many people don't feel comfortable reporting things to the police because of the environment we're living in now.

Murad (71:11)

Yeah. I also think even if you don't look at the statistics, my view of it is like, you think about, and I won't say any of their names because I, I, it's, it's It's a, It's a very. They count on it being a very fraught and emotional conversation. But you look at like, you know, there's a handful of cases and names where someone, usually a young woman, has been assaulted or killed by someone who happened to be undocumented. This is a thing that has happened. And they hold these up and they parade these names every single day and every single week. And you look at, if you really think about that in context and you go, the reason we're hearing those same three, four or five names over and over and over again and not a long list of different names with equally horrifying stories is because it's not happening. Like the crime, the crime rate, where that is the story that they can use is so small that they have to keep propping up the same cases. That to me alone, as a thinking person, is an indication that, like, this is a one off that they're trying to paste onto an entire community as some much larger thing that's happening that isn't occurring.

Caleb Herron (72:12)

Yeah. I don't disagree with you. I think we're. And I think I know which situation you're referring to. There's. I often tell people there's like over 300, like 50 million people who call this country home.

Murad (72:24)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (72:25)

And you were giving me one example of one really effed up thing that happened. Horrible, horrible, horrific. And instead of centering the victim or centering the actual type of violence, it was because it was. And the incident I'm thinking about, it was gender based violence.

Murad (72:41)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (72:42)

Instead of like trying to address gender based violence, what you're doing is saying no is the entire community.

Murad (72:52)

Well, this is what it always comes back to, by the way, in all these conversations. Also about the conversation about trans people as well. It comes back to men being horrifically violent and then us pasting it onto any other community and any other conversation than just being like, we do have a problem with men being violent in this country, in the world. But that's the conversation we never have. And it turns into this other thing where it's like, yeah, there are so many people who live here and crimes do occur and that is horrible. People do get hurt. People do hurt each other. But in actuality, if you really wanted to talk about that, I could point out, I could. There's a account on Twitter that this woman does this, where she posts about sexually based, like sex. Sex offenses that happen by people who work in churches. There's a lot more cases like that. But we would never go, hey, Everybody who works in churches needs to be like, monitored and deported. We would never do that. But because it's a community of people who often look and worship and are different than us. Now all of a sudden it's like we need to mass deport people for this one case that they kind of keep trotting out. As a thinking person, I hear that over and over and over again and go, well, there's a reason they only have the one to talk about.

Caleb Herron (74:04)

Yeah. And they will continue to have that one to talk about for decades moving forward. Because that's how bad their narrative is. Right. Is that they won't have more fodder to use. They continue to circle back to that one specific case.

Murad (74:19)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (74:21)

And again, we have seen this time and again, it's the same old playbook of villainizing people so that you have the attention focused on one set of people as opposed to the people who really need to be focused on. And then it right now is no different than times before. But it's even more gruesome right now because the risks are so high for everyone. Not just immigrants, but everyone who calls this country home.

Murad (74:46)

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, they, they definitely do have a narrative problem. And I, I feel, you know, it's. Sometimes we avoid talking about those things at all. People who are people on the other side of that issue, people who maybe you call yourself left, whatever. We avoid talking about those things at all because they use it so effectively as a gotcha. Like, well, then explain this to me. I'll happily explain this to you. That's a one off, horrible thing that happened. Someone did something awful. Their status happened to be that they were undocumented. And in any other presidency in the history of this country, we would handle it the exact same way. They would face criminal proceedings, they would get due process, and then they would serve time and be deported. That nothing has changed about that. Trump is doing nothing differently in regards to those cases. So holding up those cases, case holding up an instance of that or a handful of instances of that, if you can find them. There is no different approach to this. We have always handled that the same way. You have never, there has never been an administration in this country and never will be that would say, yeah, we like, we like when someone commits murder, that's not, that's, that doesn't exist. And it's being painted in this way of like, finally, someone who cares about this. It's like we have always had a problem with that and dealt with it accordingly. Yeah, I don't understand the how that's even working as a cudgel that they're using. It is. It's. It's effective. People on that side of things are really enjoying the use of that story as a kind of like, ah, we cornered him into a. It's like, you didn't. Nothing has changed. We're having. We were having the exact same approach to that then as we do now.

Caleb Herron (76:13)

Yeah. And I think another part of this narrative that really isn't highlighted often is the fragility of certain people in this country. Right. And sometimes people thinking like, oh, well, you know, Stephen Miller is someone who would be identified by any organization that does civil rights or a hate group monitoring organization as a white supremacist.

Murad (76:41)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (76:43)

Point blank. And I think he has been labeled that several times before. It's all race politics for him.

Murad (76:51)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (76:52)

So by 2042, this country is going to no longer be a white majority country. It's going to be a community, people of color, majority country. And he doesn't want that to happen.

Murad (77:04)

Yeah.

Caleb Herron (77:05)

So people of that mindset are in this administration and are also part of the apparatus that has helped this administration become what it is. So it's in their interest to continue to create division and fodder like this so that people are like, oh, wow, they're really bad people. When in the grand scheme, it's like really bad people. Person, one person, one thing happened. And we never see any. When records get clarified, if there is misinformation that then gets unveiled or, you know, people hear about it in court and then court decisions happen, you never hear about that anymore. So if you say that we live in a democracy. Right. And we believe in all these laws that make our constitution and say that our constitution is the foundation for our republic, democracy. When we stop actually abiding by them, when we ignore them, do we still live in a democracy?

Murad (78:04)

Well, no, no, it's. Yeah, that's. Yeah, this is the issue. So I guess, sort of in conclusion, what. What should everybody do? Like, if you're somebody listening to this episode and you came for a comedy podcast, whoops, my bad. But if you're someone listening to this and you're like, hey, I really, I really care about this. I really don't want people ripped from their communities and families and homes. I really am not about this, like, really dystopian, fucked up way that Trump and his entire administration are talking about immigrants, documented or otherwise. Yeah. What would you tell people to do?

Caleb Herron (78:43)

I think people, regardless of what your political affiliation is. Right. Because More than not, I really do believe that, again, everyone has a lot more in common than they don't step up. I think that's the piece that's sort of missing in this moment, is seeing a lot more people being outraged, visibly, publicly, and calling out their elected officials. Your members of Congress are the ones who are allowing allotted this to happen, holding their feet to the fire, demanding that they answer the questions that you have and demanding that they answer the questions that your communities have. And telling them what's happening right now is unjust, inhumane, and you don't stand for it. Demand that they have a town hall and then organize your friends to go to that town hall and voice your concerns there. What we're seeing is that elected officials don't want to do town halls. They don't want to face the people that voted them into office because they know that they're doing what, the bidding of Trump as opposed to the bidding of their constituents who they were elected to serve. So I think the thing that I always tell people is that there is always something you can do. If it is calling your elected official, if it is supporting work that's happening on the ground, supporting organizations that are doing the work, or being like nothing's happening near me, I'm going to start organizing with people that I know, and then we're going to start organizing other people who are also impacted by what's happening so that we can all fight back together.

Murad (80:08)

Yeah. Well, Murad, thank you. This has been very informative.

Caleb Herron (80:12)

No, thank you for having me.

Murad (80:13)

I'm so glad you could do it. It means the world. Thank you for being on now.

Caleb Herron (80:15)

Thanks. Anytime. That was a Headgum Podcast.

Murad (80:20)

Hi, I'm Jesse Klein.

Caleb Herron (80:21)

And I'm Liz Feldman. And we're the hosts of a new.

Murad (80:23)

Headgum podcast called Here to Make Friends. Liz and I met in the writers room on a little hit TV show called Dead to Me, which is a show about murder.

Caleb Herron (80:31)

But more importantly, it's also about two women becoming very good friends in their.

Murad (80:35)

40S, which can really happen.

Caleb Herron (80:37)

And it has happened to us.

Murad (80:38)

It's true, because life has imitated ours.

Caleb Herron (80:41)

And then it imitated life.

Murad (80:42)

Time is a flat circle. And now we're making a podcast that's.

Caleb Herron (80:45)

About making friends, and we're inviting incredible.

Murad (80:47)

Guests like Vanessa Baron.

Caleb Herron (80:49)

Wow. I have so much to say. Lisa Kudrow feelings, they're a nuisance. Nick Kroll. I just wanted to say hi. I'm Matt Rogers.

Murad (80:56)

I'm, like, on the verge of tears.

Caleb Herron (80:57)

So good, so good to join us and hopefully become our friends in real life.

Murad (81:02)

Yeah, take it out of the podcast studio and into real life. Along the way, we are also going to talk about dating. Yep, Spousing, true parenting, careering, and why we love Thelma and Louise and it's the greatest movie of all time. Shouldn't need to be said. No, we said it.

Caleb Herron (81:16)

It's just a true thing. So please subscribe to Here to make friends on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Pocket Casts, or wherever you get your podcasts and watch video episodes on YouTube. New episodes every Friday.