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- [00:02]
A
This is a head gum podcast.
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B
This episode is brought to you by Huggies Little Movers. Huggies knows that babies come in all shapes and sizes and their tushies do too. Huggies has more curves and outstanding active fit. Parents know that there's nothing worse than an ill fitting diaper, especially for active wiggly babies. Huggies Little Movers are curved to fit all curves so babies feel comfy no matter how much they're moving around. And we all know they're moving around a lot. They also offer 12 hour protection against leaks, which is a game changer. Get your baby's butt into the best fitting diaper. Huggies Little Movers. We got you baby.
- [00:42]
A
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B
But this is the problem with you is that you have this life that I want and you have no problem telling me about. I'm like, that sounds amazing.
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A
I love you so much.
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B
I love you.
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A
This was so much fun. Thank you for coming on.
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B
Thank you for having me.
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A
This was a blast. Let's rap.
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B
Thank you so much.
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A
Let's wrap. Now that I know you love me, let's get out of here.
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B
Let's do it.
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A
Do you wanna hear a joke that my dentist told me the other day?
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B
I'd love to.
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A
I've been thinking about it a lot.
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B
Okay.
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A
My dentist in Kansas City, he had his hands in my mouth as they do. Yeah, they're freaks.
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B
They are.
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A
These people, they're obsessed. He goes, okay, here's the joke. You ready? He goes, this man walks into a bar, right? It's an empty bar. And I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember all of It. He walks into a bar. It's an empty bar, and he's thinking, man, this is so nice. I got the bar all to myself. I just got off work. He sits down at the bar, and it's just a bunch of empty tables, some nuts on the counter, some empty stools, things like that. He's in there alone, and he orders a beer, and bartender brings him a beer. And then he hears, hey, man, that's a really nice shirt. He looks around. Bartender's all the way down at the other end of the bar, not talking to him, and he's like, whoa, who said that to me? Right? And then he's like, man, I think I'm hearing things, but it's just been a long day. Maybe I'm just making things up in my head. So he goes back to his beer, and then a couple seconds later, he hears, and that's a nice tie, too. You look good. And he's going, whoa, who said that to me? So he calls the bartender over, and he goes, hey, let me. Let me close out my tab. I think I'm gonna get out of here. It's, like, haunted in here. I'm hearing voices.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The bartender goes, well, what'd you hear? And he goes, what? Someone complimented my shirt. My tie, told me I looked good today, and there's no one around me. And the bartender goes, oh, it's the nuts. They're complimentary. I really like that. I really love that. I laughed for about five minutes. I thought that was really funny.
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B
Good for your dentist. That's an amazing joke.
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A
He's really. I like him a lot.
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B
He took a big swing with that one. With his hands in your mouth and. Yeah, that's amazing.
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A
He took a big swing and it paid off.
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B
Yeah. You have great teeth, by the way.
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A
Shout out to my doctor. Shout out to my dentist. He's been in there doing stuff.
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B
Good at many things.
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A
Good at many things. I really do love. I love that joke because I didn't see it coming. Personally.
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B
I really didn't. Didn't know where you were going.
- [04:04]
A
You know, when you hear those, like, old school kind of dad jokes, you're always looking for the, like, okay, where are we? You know? But, man, they really got me on that one.
- [04:11]
B
That's a good one.
- [04:11]
A
What's going on with you?
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B
You know, I am in the middle of a bunch of things right now. Casey Tennant's just launched rent strikes on Octo.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So pretty much every day is like a fight with the landlord with the regulator. So I'M trying to stay hydrated and endure through that.
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A
So, okay, so for the, for the people, for the listeners. You and I met in Kansas City, where you're from.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And you lived in Kansas City, go to the east coast for college for a little bit. You then live in Chicago for a while.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You're doing a bunch of organizing during that time. You're a political organizer and a genius and my friend, and I know you don't want to do that, but you go back to Kansas City and you start the tenant union. And so KC Tenants is the citywide tenant union in Kansas City. You'll do a better job of explaining it than me. But what. First of all, before we even talk about the rent strikes, because I do obviously want to talk about that. What is a tenant union and what is the point and why are you doing that?
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B
Yeah, so a tenant union is kind of like a labor union. A bunch of neighbors get together and they recognize that central premise of a union, which is that we're stronger together than we are as individuals. You know, alone. We could write a nasty email to the landlord and say, you know, such and such is wrong with my unit. And the landlord could say delete. Like not going to do anything.
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A
Fuck you, don't care.
- [05:28]
B
Exactly. So together in a union we have a lot of power. And fundamentally a tenant's power is their rent. We actually pay the landlord money, which allows the landlord to run their business and pay their mortgage and pay their utility bills and all the rest of it. So a union is about taking seriously what a tenant's power is and the power that they have with their neighbors too, should they take that seriously and get together and organize. So that's basically what a tenant union is. A lot of people don't even identify as tenants though. So we actually have an even more fundamental problem, which is telling people that they're tenants, defining what that means for people, and also moving people out of what is often a sort of starting orientation around shame. People feel a lot of shame about being tenants. It's not a political identity that people associate with pride, like being a worker or being a parent or something like that. If people are tenants in this country, they're told to be ashamed of that. They're told to want to be owners. So we have a lot of work to do to move people into a sort of powerful identity as tenants and then into action to knock on their neighbors doors and get together and try to do something to improve their conditions.
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A
You said something really interesting to me. The cause I had been doing some work with KC tenants before I bought a house. And then we had a little bit of a talk where I was like, kind of bummed. I was like, man, I want to, like, I feel like, you know, I want to be a tenant. And you said this really great thing that I thought was really interesting. And I think about it a lot, which is that if you bought your house on a loan, you're a tenant to the bank.
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B
That's right.
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A
What does that mean? Like, what is so. Yeah, say more about that.
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B
Yeah, so at Casey Tenants, we actually have a pretty broad definition of tenant. It includes people who rent their homes. That might be the kind of traditional category that we think of as tenants. We also have a lot of people active in our union who are working class homeowners and they're tenants of their banks. We call them bank tenants. They don't own their home outright. They're actually still on the hook for a mortgage payment. That makes them tenants in a way. And in a way, they share a lot of interest with the sort of renting class in this country. And then we also talk about unhoused people as tenants at large. A lot of those are people who were previously tenants who have been displaced, displaced onto the street. Some of them are aspiring to be tenants. So they've sort of self identified within our union as tenants at large. And we actually think it's helpful to think about tenant as a pretty broad identity. We are on purpose trying to build a big tent across all the lines that the other side uses to divide us. Race, class, gender, sexuality, everything. Because there's power in numbers, and we're up against some of the most powerful, potent forces in the global economy.
- [08:10]
A
Yeah, this is going to be a tough interview for me because I just want to listen to you talk. Like, I'm like, as soon as you start talking, I, like, forget. You know, usually I'm doing a little bit of math about where I'm taking the conversation. And you're talking and I'm just like, yeah, I just love listening to you talk. I think you're.
- [08:22]
B
It's also going to be a tough interview because I'm not a comedian and I'm going to keep being like, it's real estate capital. That's the problem.
- [08:29]
A
No, that's what we're here for. You know, there has been a big negotiation with us and our fans since the beginning of this podcast about whether or not this is a comedy podcast. And it remains to be seen. I say no. I say it's Not a comedy podcast. I say it's a podcast. And if we happen to be funny, fantastic. But. So you're doing a rent strike right now. And tell me about that. What is going on with the rent strike?
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B
Yeah, so this is where we get really nerdy real quick.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Basically, the government is in business with our landlords. And this is not something that a lot of people know, but the government has big business with the landlords. There's two government sponsored banks called Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Together, they do $150 billion in business with our landlords every year. And that means our landlords get loans on very sweet terms with almost no strings attached. And some of these landlords are the biggest and the baddest. And I don't mean bad as a.
- [09:20]
A
Compliment in this is bad in the actual way.
- [09:22]
B
This is bad in the actual sense. They keep their tenants living in squalor. And as we know right now, the rent is too damn high. All of us are paying more rent than we've ever paid before for worse conditions than we've ever endured. And that's a problem. That's a huge problem. And it's an even bigger problem that our government is essentially enabling it. So we're now running coordinated rent strikes in buildings with these types of federal loans to actually attack both the landlord and the federal regulator. And what we're seeking is federal rent caps at 3%. We want new ownership in these buildings that are on strike, and we want collectively bargained leases so that the tenants can actually have a say so in the protections around their homes.
- [10:04]
A
So what is, what is a federal rent cap at 3% look like? Is that for someone who's not as smart as you me, 3%? Does that mean that the rent can only go up by 3% every lease?
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B
Yes.
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A
Right, so is that annually?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right.
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B
So that would be annually. And even that is a lot. Right. The rent is too damn high right now. People can't endure rent increase after rent increase after rent increase. But the reality of the market today is that it's basically the Wild West. There's no regulation. Right. All the time we have tenants calling our hotlines, being like, is it legal that my landlord is hiking my rent 200%? Unfortunately, in most states in this country, that is completely legal right now. That doesn't make it right.
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A
Right.
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B
That doesn't mean that we're paying for anything, any changes, improvements. Right. The rent is actually not a reflection of the quality or condition of our homes. It's whatever the market will allow and the market is just a bunch of white dudes in suits who made some shit up. So what we're trying to do is say let's actually regulate this market and protect people, try to stabilize things for the poorest people, the most vulnerable people in our economy. And then ultimately we shouldn't be sort of captives of the market in the way that we are. There should be alternatives. Housing should be guaranteed for people not commodified. Our lives shouldn't be line items in someone's budget.
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A
Right. So where's this rent strike taking place?
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B
So the rent strikes right now are taking place in the Kansas City area. There's one in downtown Kansas City at Quality Hill Towers. And there's one in Independence, Missouri, just outside of Kansas City. But there's tenants organizing in these federally backed properties in Michigan, North Carolina, South Carolina, Kentucky, Montana, Connecticut, the list goes on. So the threat to the federal regulator is, listen, either come to the bargaining table with the tenants right now, stop these strikes, help protect your precious market, or unfortunately, we're going to be on a path to rent strike in all of these different places with federally backed loans across the country.
- [12:01]
A
So, okay. A lot of people, I think, who rent like, you know, you think about, there are the people that are like in organizing, they're people that are 100% always on our side, right? Like very leftist, very progressive, like young people who have seen how bad things are, older people who have seen how bad things are, like people who are just 100% down for the cause. And then there are people that are never going to side with us. Your landlords, your big finance people, your people who work for Fannie Mae or whatever, they're never going to maybe get with us, whatever. But those people in the middle, someone who might say, like, okay, Tara, sounds cool, you make it sound really nice. Why aren't these people paying their rent? They signed a lease. Like, what kind of conditions exist in these buildings that people feel that they need to strike?
- [12:38]
B
Caleb, they're horrible. Yeah, they're so horrible. I mean, one step in these buildings and you'll see some of the worst shit you've ever seen in your life. Independence Towers, for example, in Kansas City. In the Kansas City area. You walk in and the carpet is disgusting. There's holes in the wall, there's mold everywhere, there's rodent issues, there's holes in the ceiling filled with asbestos. Half of a whole floor is burned out. The unit's burned. At the end of July, a child fell out of an eight story window to his Death. Yeah, the conditions are really bad.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's hard to imagine if you're someone who's lucky enough, who hasn't had to endure conditions like this. But our neighbors live like this. In every community in this country, our neighbors, working class people live in conditions like this and are paying more money than they've ever paid before. It's robbery. A theft is occurring. Well.
- [13:33]
A
And it's tough to imagine, I think, for people who, you know, if you have like a good paying job and you rent from a landlord who maybe you even know, like somebody, you know, somebody's. Your friend's uncle or something who has a house that he rents out, you think like, oh, man, I would never. Like. I think there are people who go, why would you withhold rent for them? Just because they didn't, you know, replace a light fixture or you didn't feel like. It's not like that. It's way worse. There are rats in the buildings. There is asbestos, there is. There are safety issues. I think that's sometimes hard for people to grasp because these people every month expect the rent on time, even though they're letting people live in what are effectively like wild west unregulated, like slums.
- [14:12]
B
Right, right. You know, a lot of the feedback that we've gotten about the strike strategy so far, people are like, is that legal? Like, can you withhold rent? Right. When workers go on strike, there's a whole kind of formal process around it. There's no such thing for tenants. Not yet. Right. Maybe one day we'll get there, maybe one day soon. But what our response is, no, this is not legal. We are not taking a legal action. We're taking an action from a place of collective disobedience because the landlord has broken their contract. The landlord is not doing the thing that the landlord has said that they will do in return for our rent. So they don't get our rent. And that's the kind of premise of the strike. Then a lot of other people will say, if these conditions are so bad, why don't these people just move? Right. Why don't they leave? Why don't they get up and go? The issue is there is no place to go. If you're poor, if you're working class in this country, there is no place to go. This is Independence, Missouri, and people are forced to live in conditions like this. Renting from what we call landlords of last resort, because there's simply no place to go. There's not another place to rent. If you're a Poor person earning minimum wage. If you earn minimum wage and work full time in this country, there's not a single county where you can afford a two bedroom apartment.
- [15:28]
A
Right. And also moving is expensive as fuck.
- [15:31]
B
Yeah.
- [15:31]
A
Who is going to move your stuff like you, if you don't have a. I think also a barrier sometimes for people understanding how serious it is. Everyone doesn't have the social and financial safety nets that a lot of people just assume. They go, like, oh, my buddies could help me move. Some people don't have that kind of community because their buddies are also working full time and have kids or like, it just doesn't exist in the same way that you think of it. I think sometimes for certain people to like get on board and it's also the moving, the moving cost of like getting your stuff moved, signing a lease on a new place, they might want first and last, they might want security deposit. Like all of those things cost so much money that it's like you can't just go somewhere else even if there was another place to go.
- [16:12]
B
And there isn't and there isn't. The costs are so extreme. And again, there's no regulation. They can say, I want three times first month's rent, I want security deposit, I want. Now there's all of a sudden pet fees, gas fees, cable fees, trash fees, whatever it is. There's absolutely no regulation around any of that. So landlords are just shaking us for everything we have, every last penny and dime. And some of the people that we work with are some of the most vulnerable people in this country. I've spent a lot of time in the last couple of weeks with elderly folks in the Kansas City area who are just getting hosed. These are people living on fixed income. Many of them have disabilities of various kinds. Not only are they dealing with the same constraints that all of the rest of us are in this terribly expensive market, they also just actually cannot find some extra cash. They don't have cash laying around. They don't have family left anymore. Some of our most vulnerable neighbors are the most at risk and are forced to live in the most undignified ways. Like you and I would not allow our parents or grandparents to live like this. Our landlords wouldn't allow their family members to live like this, but they're very happy to wring these old people dry for everything that they're worth.
- [17:29]
A
Yeah. So what is the, what is the end goal of the tenant union? Like, you know, if. What is the ideal? Is it a future where there's no rent? Is It a future where like what is the end goal ideal of the tenant union? Tenant organizing.
- [17:45]
B
Yeah. Tenant unions are kind of beautiful, enduring projects unto themselves. Like bringing. Building a strong union is a goal unto itself. We're practicing democracy every day, which is kind of a corny way to put it, but it's like, no, I like that. They are these beautiful projects where you bring together people across race, age, gender, class, et cetera. And every day is a day to sort of like reinvent what the union is. Build more durable, more democratic structure. So the union itself is a goal and then obviously just a changing material reality. Right. And I think for some within our unions, that looks like a world without rent, like the abolition of the concept of rent itself. For others, it looks like the construction of something that we call social housing. So housing that's off the market, it's not available for investment or speculation. For still others, it looks like cooperatives, land land trusts, like more creative and collective ways for people to live. So, you know, I have my own visions, but the beauty of a union is you kind of have to like negotiate that with your, with your neighbors and the people that you organize with.
- [18:52]
A
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- [20:19]
B
I'm obsessed with power. I mean, that's the truth. And let me dig in. I'm obsessed with power. And there's almost no. I think there's like no more profound expression of the imbalance of power in this country than tenants and their landlords. And we see power dynamics play out in every sector across every issue. Happens in schools, hospitals, churches, et cetera, of course the workplace. But there was something about this issue that was really compelling to me. And I was so curious about why people weren't doing more, saying more about this gross imbalance of power between tenants and their landlords. And for me personally, the kind of reason behind that obsession is like. Like so many people, I've been on the wrong side of power imbalance. I, on a soul level, feel very connected to the people that I organize with. I know what it feels like to be trapped and powerless. And I don't want that for myself and I don't want that for anyone. And I was so drawn to this work, I think because of what felt like a really clear path to confront that imbalance in power. And to this day, there's nothing. It feels so electric to be in a tenant meeting where people feel powerful for the first time ever. I think about so many instances of tenants saying to me, I have never felt power in my body before this moment, before taking this collective action with my neighbors. And that's. I'm hooked on that. You know, there's like, there's no better feeling in the world than getting to invite people into that and to continue building on it and building on it. And I mean, you know this. Cause you live in Kansas City, but Casey Tennant's is undeniably one of the most powerful institutions in town.
- [22:17]
A
It's a fucking powerhouse.
- [22:18]
B
Yeah, it's a powerhouse. And people walk around in our yellow shirts and they feel powerful and they feel pride in their union. And I can't underestimate the reality that so many of those people that feel that kind of power have never felt that before. And that's profound. I mean, it's completely changed my life and there's no looking back.
- [22:37]
A
Yeah, I could cry. I mean, I got close. I got close to crying because it is. And I know, I know, you know, I've met many of the people that you're talking about, and they're my neighbors as well. And like, it is. It's just like, kick ass. Like, it's cool as fuck to be like, we don't actually have to accept any of this. Like, we actually. There's a lot of talk, and I got very disillusioned, frankly, with, like, candidates and, like, you know, I worked in, like, electoral politics when I was younger, and I got so disillusioned with it and just felt very hopeless. Like, damn, everyone is not who they say they are, or many people are not who they say they are. It feels a little hopeless. But then the tenant union, really, really. And I've talked to you about this, like, really reinvigorated my passion for just local community organizing and feeling like, no, we actually, like, all talk aside, do not have to accept this. We do not have to have a life where rent is this fucking high. We do not have to live in a world where our neighbors are living in horrible conditions and treated badly by people. By the way, most of whom, or at least a lot of whom do not live locally are not our neighbors. They come in here and buy properties, and then they extort our neighbors. A lot of them older, a lot of them disabled, a lot of them, you know, all of them low income, and they extort our neighbors for their profit. And they don't even fucking live here. That shit enrages me. And I think it's so cool to see and genuinely feel like there's some group out there in Kansas City. It's the tenant union. And I know that in other places it is as well that it feels the way I do, which is like, we don't have to accept this. We do not have to live like this.
- [24:04]
B
Well, now this is my chance to tell the story of how we actually met. Go ahead, because.
- [24:08]
A
Go ahead, tell our story.
- [24:10]
B
You have been such an extraordinary supporter of the tenant union since before we were friends, for which I'm totally and deeply grateful. And we met. I remember seeing your name because you had made a really generous contribution at some point during the pandemic. So I remember seeing your name and I knew of your work. And then I saw you one night on a dance floor at a local bar that we both love called the Ship. And I went up to you and in such a weirdo way, like, there's a total weirdo behavior. Instead of being like, I'm Tara, I organized with Casey Tennance, and I'm familiar with your familiarity with us. Instead of any of that, I did. I was just like, I'm a huge fan. I ran up to you and I was like, I'm a huge fan.
- [24:58]
A
So, of course I was in meeting a fan mode and I was like, what's your name?
- [25:01]
B
Like, you were sort of like, okay, goodbye. Like, I'm out with my friend. No, you were very, very. But it was. I was being a weirdo. In retrospect, I am obviously also a fan. But we got there eventually and I was like, I organized with Casey tenants, and then you and I met up for coffee, which turned into like a three hour endeavor because you were so compelling to me. You were talking about this kind of shift in your own politics from being someone who had been really attuned to candidates and the sort of formal political process to becoming really disillusioned with that and starting to think more about issues. And we. I don't know if you would identify it this way, but we had what I consider basically an organizing conversation where I was like, who the fuck are you? Like, why do you care about this stuff? Not from a place of suspicion, but from a place of genuine curiosity. And I tell people this all the time. I'm like, we're so blessed and lucky to have someone like Caleb in our corner, Tara. And it comes from such an authentic place where, you know, you told me about growing up, how you grew up in Chillicothe and the reasons that this shit matters to you, the reasons that you care about Kansas City and giving back in Kansas City. And that has stuck with me, and I feel so grateful.
- [26:17]
A
You know, I'm surprised. I think about this a lot because people obviously know I'm from Missouri. And a lot of people who aren't from Missouri will be like, oh, I'm so surprised that you're so progressive. Like, that's. Or it'll come up in some way, you know, And I'm like, it's really funny to me that people come out of my circumstances being conservative, actually.
- [26:34]
B
Yeah.
- [26:34]
A
Like, I'm sorry, I just don't understand it. Like, I. The Missouri values I grew up with were like, kindness and generosity and worrying about your neighbor and specifically fairness.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah.
- [26:44]
A
I have a very. There's a very long thread of my childhood of like every. Like a lot of Republicans that I grew up around, they were at that time very obsessed with fairness. And that has kind of gone out the window on. For a lot of different sectors of the American political life and society societally in general, I think. But I don't like things that are unfair. It pisses me off. I don't understand. I'm like, it doesn't make sense to me that someone is paying their rent. You. Okay, so you had the capital to buy a multi unit building. Fantastic. You got that money however you got it and you bought a multi unit building. Okay, so then you decided to enter into contract with people to rent out the place. You have a responsibility to them. That's the fair thing to do. They're paying your mortgage, they're making you money. You do nothing. You have no real job. Landlords do not have a real job. Most of them don't even go to their buildings and fix anything. They have contractors for that. So you, here you are a person with no job, and you're existing off the money of people who often have multiple or very arduous jobs or actually important jobs. Their teachers, their nurses, their, you know, firefighters. And the only thing you have to do is make sure that they live in a safe building that's clean, where they can raise their kids and wake up and go to work and be a part of society. And you can't even do that. That to me is fucking insane. And yeah, we did grow up poor. We rented my whole life. My mom still rents. Yeah, like, we. I rent as well. I'm still a tenant. You know, like, it just doesn't. It doesn't make any sense to me. And I was so. I was so happy to learn about Casey tenants.
- [28:09]
B
Well, the fairness thing is super interesting because I think you're right. Like, so many people, regardless of political affiliation, actually share our values. Right? And we see this all the time in the tenant union. We've organized straight up Trump voters. I remember this amazing. We had this great campaign a couple years ago.
- [28:28]
A
Yes, I love this story.
- [28:29]
B
Please.
- [28:29]
A
Yes, yes, yes.
- [28:30]
B
We had this great campaign in a trailer park, right? It's in Kansas City, but right outside of the city proper. And this trailer park, we had heard everyone was going to be displaced so that the county could build a new jail called Hart Village Trailer Homes. Right? And we were like, okay, we probably have to go organize there. And we sent out a scout in advance. And the scout, like, went and kind of surveyed. We do this to try to figure out how many people it's going to take to knock all the doors, whatever. The scout went out and counted all the doors, but also came back and was like, there's a lot of Trump signs out there. And so we had this debate within the union. Some people were like, I'm not trying to organize racists into the union. Like, there's no way. I'm not knocking on those doors. And other people were like, hang on, we have a community agreement that says we don't make assumptions about anyone, about anything. And those might be our people, and they are going to be displaced so that the county can build a jail, which we all agree is wrong. We have to go knock those doors. So the latter category won out in the end. We said, you know, if you're not comfortable knocking doors, don't go out. But some of the rest of us are going out. And we knocked those doors. And first of all, we found, we definitely found Trump voters. We also found black families, Mexican families. We found working class white families who are not Trump voters. You know, we found a whole mix of people, all of whom were like, we're about to be screwed and we're trying to do something about it. So within a week, we had 111 of the 120 families signed on with the union, and we ended up winning multiple millions of dollars to support their relocation. We canceled their rent for six months. I mean, it was this amazing campaign where by the end of it, some of these Trump voters were joining their neighbors in chanting, homes, not jails. That's like, I mean, think about that. That's an abolitionist chant.
- [30:17]
A
That's fucking crazy.
- [30:19]
B
It's amazing. Right? And, you know, we did not knock on doors, like teaching lessons about racial capitalism or something like that. But through the union, people get a political education. Through meeting their neighbors and actually forging real relationships with them, they get a political education. Does that mean that they've totally transformed and they're not going to still go vote for Trump? No, but that's not the goal of the union. Right. They have transformed as individuals, they've transformed as neighbors, they've transformed as members of their community, and that's powerful and that's worth something. And I think people within the context of a union often get exposure to this reality that we have more in common than we think we do, and we definitely have more in common with one another than we. Than any of us do with our landlord, with our boss, or from most of the shot callers in this country.
- [31:08]
A
Yeah. And then that's part of the shift for me personally is like, I just want life to get better for people.
- [31:14]
B
Yeah.
- [31:15]
A
And it doesn't feel. I don't feel that in national politics. I just. It doesn't feel. It's. It's part of the conversation. But you just. I think everyone in the country is feeling this right now on, on both sides. On. On all sides, and sides are not equal. But I do think everyone is feeling life is supposed to be good, and it's only good for a Very small percentage of people, and that's not right. And we want something different, period. And I just think, like, yeah, the things. Like the tenant union and things. And I love. That's my favorite story from the tenant union, by the way, because it is. It has very much informed, like, my understanding of where I'm at in the political scheme of things now, where I'm like, I don't want to convince you to vote like me. I do want you to take care of your neighbors, and I want to take care of my neighbors. And I would like to be a neighbor that you also take care of. I want to be in community, whatever that means. And I just want everyone to be safe and feel good and have a nice life.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah.
- [32:07]
A
And I don't. It feels juvenile to say that. Like, you know, it feels like, okay, you know what I mean? But I'm like, no, that is how I feel. That's just how I feel.
- [32:15]
B
I don't think it's juvenile at all. And I frankly wish more of our national political leaders were tapped in enough to understand that that is what most people want and need, right across every line that people might use to divide us. People want to feel safe and secure in their homes. They want their kids and their parents to be taken care of. They want their community to be safe and their neighbors to be secure. You know, these aren't radical things. They're not radical in any one direction or the other. And I don't think it's juvenile at all for that to be your politics. I think that is most people's politics, and it's unfortunately misrepresented and completely distorted in our national discourse.
- [32:57]
A
Yeah. So what do you. What do you say to someone who's listening and is like, I don't live in Kansas City unfortunate. I live somewhere else. And I'm inspired by everything you've said because you've talked so beautifully about the work. So someone who's listening, like, I'm so inspired by what you said. I want to be part of a tenant union, or I want to organize in that way, or I want to have these beautiful stories about crossing lines and, like, getting together with my community. What do you. What do you tell those people? How do they do it?
- [33:24]
B
So we've just started a national tenant union federation. We launched in August, and we have five founding locals. Casey Tenants is one of them. And then we have a local in Kentucky, Louisville Tenant Union, one in Bozeman, Montana, one in Chicago, one in Connecticut. We're going to grow next year. We started Small on purpose because we're actually kind of figuring out together what a tenant union is and how to be as powerful as possible. But people can organize their neighbors anytime. They don't need my permission. Right. Like I have a lot of friends across the country who are taking to just printing out little letters, sticking it under all of their neighbors doors, convening meetings. We have a bunch of tools to support people to do that. But also people have really good intuition about this stuff actually, once they, once they actually get that going. I've been so inspired to see Starbucks workers organizing across the country. People sort of taking it upon themselves to organize their workplaces. And it's the same project essentially. It's going and introducing yourself to your neighbor, getting together with a bunch of neighbors to discuss what's going on with the building, what could be done about it. A lot of tenant unions don't necessarily fight the landlord. Maybe the first set of things that they do is actually take care of some stuff themselves. Right. Organize like a cleanup day among the neighbors to actually get some stuff done that is within yalls control. So there's a lot to do. And I think the most important thing is to get out there and find a political home, a group of people who actually share your values and want to do something about them.
- [35:00]
A
Yeah, it's something I just think about constantly lately. And you and I have obviously talked about it. It's oh, a lot of your work, but just like community and like warm, genuine, supportive community and how many people are missing that? And part of it is like, look, there's a, there's part of, there's. There's a piece of it that is like somebody in the mix needs to be an extrovert. Like somebody has to go next door and say, hi, I am your neighbor, I would like to talk to you. You know, and that part is tougher for some people than others. But I just think about like, what does good, genuine community look like and how do you actually support people? Because it's what everyone wants. Everyone wants to be part of a good community. Well, most people, I think most people want to be part of a good community. And a lot of people are like missing it right now. And so I'm just thinking constantly and like turning over all the time, like even the tiniest ways that we can build community. And I'm not even talking necessarily about like your neighborhood. I'm talking like community in the grocery store, community at the concert, community at like just community all the time and how we can just feel more Connected in a time when it feels like disconnection is. Everyone is anxious about it because we all feel so, like, separate, you know?
- [36:09]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [36:10]
A
I'm thinking about it all the time.
- [36:11]
B
Totally. People are so alienated, and it's really, really bad for us.
- [36:17]
A
It is. And I want. And the thing I think about all the time, and this is not to be like, damn, that's crazy. Couldn't be me. But it's like, that is not my experience. I am lucky to be a part of a lot of warm community.
- [36:26]
B
Well, you're not just lucky. You also work hard for that. And. And it's beautiful. Yeah, no, it's true. Don't edit this out, because it's true. It's. You work really hard to cultivate a beautiful community. And that's. I think one of your best attributes, most beautiful gifts, is you bring people together all the time. You're extraordinarily generous with your time, with your energy, with your resources, et cetera. And so few people have that instinct. And it's not their fault. Actually. We live in a world that conditions us against building that. Right. Even in our homes, right in the context of an apartment building. So often when we're organizing with people, we hear people say to us, I keep my head down, I don't know my neighbors, I just come here, I close my door, I watch my television, I leave in the morning, I go to work. People have been told, keep to yourself. Right. Do not actually connect with the people around you. And also some people just straight up do not have the time or the energy. Right. Like, people are working three jobs to pay the rent. So not everyone has the sort of luxury, and it is unfortunately kind of a luxury these days to build rich community. But it's not just luck that gets you there. It does actually take work. And there is actually a cost when people don't have that. Like, the alienation and the loneliness is so corrosive to the human spirit, I think, and leads to so many of the horrible things that we see in this world, like hate and division festers in those circumstances, the, like, misinformation that we all get fed on our social media and traditional media all the time these days. That shit can only, like, resonate in a world where we don't actually know human beings who can check our understanding of the facts.
- [38:09]
A
Yeah, I felt this a lot in high school. I started traveling with this organization that I was a part of and I met a lot of different, like, people. I just met a lot of different people, very different from my hometown, I met people of different faiths and different backgrounds and different races and all kinds of stuff. And then I would hear things differently. Like, I would just hear, like, you know, older dudes in my hometown being like, you know, something this, that, or the other about Muslims. And I would be like, I know a Muslim person.
- [38:32]
B
Yeah.
- [38:33]
A
And you don't. And what are you taught? You know? But, like, knowing people and being, like, attuned to other people who've had different human experiences than you is, like, obviously the number one, in my opinion, thing that, like, builds empathy. And I do think the important thing about a tenant union that you were touching on earlier is, like, it's not all about sticking it to the landlord, which is pretty fucking cool. If that was the only thing it was, that would be pretty cool. But it is also about, like, there are a lot of fringe benefits to knowing your neighbors. Like, I know all my neighbors on my street in Kansas City, and it's partially because of the tenant union that we're not, like, organized through the tenant union necessarily, but, like, the values that I have gained from being a member of the tenant union and a fan of the tenant union, where, you know, when I moved into my house, I was like, I'm gonna go meet every neighbor. And it has come in handy so many times.
- [39:20]
B
Yeah.
- [39:21]
A
My friend. My neighbors to the next door to me, they had a tree fall in their yard. They're two older women. They're not old, but they're older. And, you know, we all, like, three or four of us went over and, like, helped get the tree out of there, out of their yard, and, like, fixed their fence, and, like, my door, like, swung open while I was out of town, and they text me, and we're like, hey, we're gonna shut your door. You know, just things where, like, you have to know the people who live around you before it's necessary.
- [39:44]
B
Yeah.
- [39:44]
A
You know what I mean? Because then it will be there for you.
- [39:46]
B
Can I tell you my favorite story about this?
- [39:48]
A
Yes.
- [39:48]
B
You've probably heard this before, but you'll love this. So you know, Denise Brown, Midtown Denise Brown, Midtown Denise Brown. So Denise Brown, leader with Casey Tennant's. She's an icon, icon first and foremost, and an older black woman in our base, and she joined the tenant union a couple years ago. And specifically, the neighborhood union that she's in is quite diverse. Midtown Kansas, the city is quite diverse. It's black, it's white, it's young, it's older. It's also changing rapidly. It's one of the most rapidly gentrifying areas of the city. So Denise was kind of thrown into this fray early, and she's like, such a chiller. Like, she dug in immediately and kind of rolled with the punches. There was this amazing moment where there was a reporter in town from a big national news outlet, fall of 2022, and he was kind of following the union around for a week. And in the way that reporters sometimes do, he was, like, looking for the cracks, right? He was kind of like, I don't buy that this is all working the way that you all say it's working. He was, like, looking for the division, looking for the, like, vinegar.
- [40:57]
A
Sure. You've got the young gay people and the Trump supporters doing rallies together. I'll be the judge of that type of stuff. Yeah, exactly.
- [41:02]
B
And it's like, yeah, I get it. It kind of sounds a little kumbaya made up, whatever. But he was kind of walking around looking for these examples of, like, fissures in the union. And one of the funniest encounters that I observed to this effect is that we were sitting. We had just had this massive action in city hall where we sat. We sat in city council chambers, took over the chamber, shut down the council meeting that day. We had been in a big fight with the mayor and the city council that week, and we had this massive action, and it was a huge success. But also someone was arrested and blah, blah. It was this, like, high intensity thing. So afterwards, a bunch of us met up at the local wine bar that is a big supporter of the union, to decompress a bit. Denise Brown was there, the reporter was there. And over wine, the reporter turns to Denise and he goes, denise, what do you think of all this pronoun business? And Denise sat there for a second and she was like, you know, I don't mind it. It's been good to learn more about leaders in the union who identify different ways. In fact, there was a moment where I started identifying as she they. I started using she they because, I don't know, I've never completely thought of myself as like, a woman in that way. So she they. I was. I was using she they. But then I had to shift back. I had to shift back to she or her. And the reason I had to shift back is people were getting confused. She's talking to the reporter, she goes, people were getting confused. They started to think that maybe I was gay. And I needed to make sure that people know that I'm obsessed with that dick. This reporter turned ghost wife. I Fell on the floor. I absolutely lost it. Yeah, but I mean, that's like. That sums it all up. You know what I mean?
- [43:01]
A
She said, I'm cool with she. They. But I'm beating the lesbian allegations.
- [43:04]
B
Exactly.
- [43:04]
A
I will beat those lesbian allegations today.
- [43:07]
B
Will not stand.
- [43:08]
A
They end today. Yeah, I need men knowing what I'm about.
- [43:11]
B
Exactly. So this is like. I mean, the pronoun stuff comes up all the time, right? But it's like, we've got, yeah, elderly people being exposed to, like, newfangled concepts. We've got kids in our union sort of being taught lessons by the elders among us. We've got, like, cultural competency. We have to pass across race lines all the time. There's, like, all sorts of negotiation like this. But people like, you know, outsiders are always suspicious of this. This reporter is kind of suspicious that this thing actually, like, works. And the reality is people are genuinely quite curious about one another. And if folks understand why something like unions, something like pronouns are used in a union, and it's about respect and about treating someone with dignity, our leaders are like, okay, cool. It's not a big deal.
- [43:58]
A
Also, when you remove these, like, these national conversations about things like pronouns and trans people in bathrooms and stuff, when you remove it from the national context of, like, these scary people in some city, almost always Chicago, that you don't know that are. That. Are. That want to. You know, that's this amorphous, like, kind of caricature of a figure who wants to hurt you and your family. When you remove it from that context and put it into the context of the person sitting across from me who's trying to help me not get evicted from my home because I couldn't afford rent this month.
- [44:27]
B
Right.
- [44:28]
A
A lot of that shit starts to make a lot more sense, for sure. And it also is like, I don't. And there's a lot of privilege in this, and I'm not. I'm not prescribing this to everyone. I am a CIS white guy who has a certain level of financial stability. Like, I know my privileges in the world, and I acknowledge that when I say this. There's a certain level of me that, like, I don't really care if your language is perfect. I don't really care if you, like, I. When we're at work, when we're at the tenant union, when we're, like, talking about you being my neighbor, I'm trying. I want to help you, and I trust that you're going to help me back because we're neighbors and that's the agreement that we're in.
- [45:00]
B
Yeah.
- [45:00]
A
And if you don't always get it right and you say something that's like, you know, maybe in the context of, like, my age and my life experience and my education, I would understand to be homophobic. I got a lot of space and a lot of patience for that. Because you're my neighbor.
- [45:12]
B
Completely.
- [45:13]
A
I'm not looking to be offended. I'm not looking to be mad at you. And I'm not assuming that you're trying to hurt me. I actually assume we're all here to help each other.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah.
- [45:21]
A
And that we'll just miss the mark sometimes.
- [45:22]
B
Totally. And I think this is where, like, a lot of especially kind of left spaces get shit wrong is that there's a purity test at the door. There's a series of litmus tests. There's, like, exclusionary politics around. If you don't say things perfectly or if you're not right here right now, you don't get to be one of us, or you're not good enough or whatever. And that shit sucks. And that's not how you build power, frankly.
- [45:48]
A
Yeah.
- [45:49]
B
Like, you do not build power that way. No one is born a radical. You were not born with perfect politics, sir. Like, it's. It's just you have to meet people where they're at, be patient with people, not make assumptions. And, frankly, get over yourself a little bit. Like, don't be so precious about every little element of everything. To the extent that you can't see someone trying and help them try to meet you where you're at, too. Right. It's not. It's not about compromising your needs. It is actually very important that we respect people's pronouns in a union. Yeah. We don't compromise on that. And we don't shun people for getting it wrong right out the gate. We correct them in real time, and we help them understand why it's important in a way that doesn't shame them or make them feel like idiots for not getting it right the first time.
- [46:44]
A
See, something about you that I think people get wrong is that I think a lot of people from the outside think that you're primarily, like, first and foremost, an organizer. And I think that first and foremost, you're a storyteller. I think that storytelling is the actual, like, crux of your job. I think if you were a bad storyteller, you would be a lot less effective organizer. Like, I think your ability to tell stories as beautifully and succinctly and as aptly as you do and to know which stories to use when, and to know what levers to pull. I think you're. Your talent as a storyteller is like, the hallmark thing about you. And I think it's the most. It's the reason that the tenant union in Kansas City is so successful, because at the core of it, and you're not the center of the tenant union. It's all of us. We're all in it together. And I know you would be quick to tell me that, but as the person who started it and who pulls a lot of the levers and who is kind of in charge, your storytelling is, like, the heart of the union.
- [47:40]
B
Thanks, that's very sweet. And I'm not in charge. I do have to say that contractually obligated, the union is a collective. We make decisions together. But I do think so much of being serious about power is being serious about our story and their story. Like, knowing what the enemy story is and how our story actually contests against that. And our stories are fucking fun to tell. I mean, that's why I really appreciate that you see that in me. I fucking love telling our story, but the story of our campaigns, but also, like, there's so many individual people.
- [48:16]
A
Yeah.
- [48:16]
B
That I'm obsessed with. And I think. I think actually to be a good organizer, you have to love people. You have to love messy people, weird people, freaks, stubborn people, indignant people, haters. You have to really love people. And I really, really love people. And there's so many people in our midst who are just the most incredible characters you've ever met. And you have so many people like this in your beautiful community you've cultivated. So I know you get it. But. Yeah, telling stories is easy when the people you meet every day are the most interesting people in the world.
- [48:52]
A
Yeah. And there are people. Yeah, that's the other thing, too, is like, I. My love for Kansas City and my love for where I'm from has grown immensely in my time being a part of the tenant union because a lot of my experiences growing up in Missouri were not ideal. You know what I mean? They were not things. They were not necessarily value aligned with who I think I am as an adult and the life I've built for me. Um, but yeah, the reconnecting. Reconnecting with, like, actual people who are in my community and who are my neighbors has made me be like, oh, actually, home is pretty sick.
- [49:26]
B
Yeah.
- [49:26]
A
I actually really like where I'm from.
- [49:28]
B
Yeah. You love Kansas City.
- [49:29]
A
I really do.
- [49:30]
B
I love. You're the best Recruiter to Kansas City that I've ever met in my life.
- [49:35]
A
It's my number one job.
- [49:36]
B
It's incredible.
- [49:37]
A
It's my number one job.
- [49:38]
B
You're bringing me more and more friends with every passing year. And I'm so grateful to you for so many things, but that's one of them. I love how you put on for your city. It's so good.
- [49:48]
A
I think it's a great place.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah.
- [49:49]
A
I have a segment for you. Hold on. Now. I have a segment for you on this clipboard. Are you ready for this?
- [49:56]
B
Yes.
- [49:57]
A
Okay. Now, you know what this is. I think I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if you think they're true or false.
- [50:04]
B
Okay?
- [50:04]
A
Okay. Speed is of the essence. If you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 US dollars.
- [50:09]
B
So there's right and wrong answers.
- [50:11]
A
There's. It's true or false.
- [50:12]
B
Okay?
- [50:12]
A
Okay. The longest case of hiccups ever lasted 68 years.
- [50:16]
B
True.
- [50:16]
A
True. The most commonly used English word is because.
- [50:19]
B
False.
- [50:20]
A
False. It's the Lex Luthor is Spider Man's archenemy.
- [50:24]
B
No idea. False.
- [50:26]
A
Damn it. I gave it away. False. It's Superman. Kansas City has never had an NBA team.
- [50:30]
B
True.
- [50:30]
A
False.
- [50:31]
B
False. No. I knew that was false. I knew that was false. Count it wrong.
- [50:34]
A
Kansas City Kings mosquitoes have killed more humans throughout history than any other animal.
- [50:39]
B
True.
- [50:39]
A
True. Modern bulletproof vests are made of wood.
- [50:42]
B
False.
- [50:43]
A
False. It's Kevlar. Penguins use tools.
- [50:45]
B
True.
- [50:46]
A
True. The Nintendo DS came out before the Nintendo GameCube.
- [50:52]
B
True.
- [50:53]
A
False. The chief judge in the Salem witch trials graduated from Harvard.
- [50:56]
B
False.
- [50:57]
A
True. There are four films in the Jaws franchise.
- [51:01]
B
True.
- [51:01]
A
True. Charlie X's real. Charlie XCX's real name is Charlotte Aitchison.
- [51:07]
B
False.
- [51:08]
A
True. Cats can make over a hundred different vocal sounds.
- [51:12]
B
True.
- [51:12]
A
True. There's a Domino's pizza in Antarctica.
- [51:15]
B
True.
- [51:15]
A
False. VCR stands for video cassette recorder.
- [51:19]
B
False.
- [51:20]
A
True. There are more Applebee's franchises than hospitals in the U.S. true. False. How'd she do? You're so close.
- [51:28]
B
I'm really. I'm really upset about the NBA team. 1. Because I knew that we. I knew the right answer, which is that we have had an NBA team. But here's the thing is I really need us to have an NBA team. Badly. Badly.
- [51:42]
A
Badly.
- [51:43]
B
I really need us to have an NBA team. You and I would be at the games all the time.
- [51:47]
A
Kansas City. And you know what? They should be the Reapers.
- [51:49]
B
The Reapers.
- [51:50]
A
Kansas City Reapers. I keep trying to get someone in Kansas City to be the Reapers.
- [51:53]
B
Why?
- [51:54]
A
Because there was this quote, chance. What was the quote? It was in the 13 second victory game against the Bills with the Chiefs, where Andy Patrick Mahomes came to the sideline and Andy said, when things look grim, be the Reaper. Oh, pretty hard.
- [52:09]
B
That's pretty good. But how are you going to name an NBA team off of an NFL reference?
- [52:13]
A
Well, because the Chiefs won't change their name. I would love for them to be the Reapers.
- [52:16]
B
Correct. Yeah.
- [52:17]
A
But they won't do it. And so I would. I just want someone to use that because people like Made Mob.
- [52:22]
B
Yeah.
- [52:22]
A
Made Mob has made, I think, some Kansas City Reaper stuff. That's like, sick as fuck. Like, so cool. I'm like, kansas City Reapers is awesome. I actually need that.
- [52:30]
B
Kansas City Reapers is good. Kansas City Reapers is good. The Chiefs need to change their name to the Chefs.
- [52:35]
A
Chefs would be cool.
- [52:36]
B
Chefs would be good. There's already March.
- [52:37]
A
They're weak, though.
- [52:38]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's not the strongest, most powerful name in the world, but there's already March that says let's eat, which I think is really cute.
- [52:46]
A
That is cute.
- [52:47]
B
Yeah. There's so many cute and there's so many options, basically, for the Chiefs. I don't know why they insist on racism. That's your team. Tell me.
- [52:54]
A
That is my team. I love it. I wouldn't change the thing about the Chiefs. Yeah, love it. Love it. I must stand beside them. No, I would change it to the Reapers immediately. I think that's so cool. And Andy Reid's our greatest head coach ever. I think it's like a perfect. It's a perfect pivot.
- [53:08]
B
You love Andy Reid. Is he your favorite? Kansas City and.
- [53:11]
A
Oh, God, that's such a. That's such a hard choice, you know? No. Do you know Charles Goosewell?
- [53:20]
B
No.
- [53:20]
A
Charles Goosewell was a columnist for the Kansas City Star, and he. I think. I believe I've sent you this quote probably more than once, and I think I've said it on this podcast more than once. But Charles Goosewell had a quote about Kansas City. He's a lifelong Kansas City, and he said something to the effect of. I might butcher it a little bit. But he said it used to be when people ask me how long I've lived in Kansas City, I would say with a bit of provincial shame. All my life. But now I say it as someone who knows my luck. It's where I've laid up my rich store of friends in good times. Oh, I love that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful quote about Kansas City. And also to me, encapsulates my experience with being from the Midwest is. For a long time, I would go, oh, God, I'm from the middle of nowhere. And then just something clicked, and I was like, no, this is the coolest thing ever. Where I'm from is the best place.
- [54:06]
B
Totally.
- [54:06]
A
Nobody's from a better place than me.
- [54:08]
B
Totally.
- [54:08]
A
There are other places I like, and there are things I like about other places, but none of them are where I'm from. And it kind of fits in with my whole mentality of the last several years. And I hope the rest of my life, which is like, you know, nothing. I don't do anything cool. Like, what I do is cool because I'm doing it.
- [54:26]
B
Like. Yeah.
- [54:27]
A
I bring the cool to everything I do. If I wear something, it's cool. If I listen to something, it's cool.
- [54:31]
B
Right.
- [54:32]
A
Stuff is cool because I'm into it. I'm not into it because it's cool.
- [54:35]
B
Yeah. You're not aspiring. You're living like you're doing the things, and that makes it cool for you. Yeah, I love that. I struggle with Kansas City sometimes, and then the moment I leave, I'm like, don't fucking talk about my city. That is my. That's my favorite place in the world. That's the best city in the world. I also think about this sometimes. The phenomenon you're describing of, like, so many of us, I think grew up with some kind of shame about where we were from. And it's kind of a nothing place. Flyover country, whatever. I remember, like, being away for college and sort of rediscovering pop country music that, like, the dudes I went to high school with would play all the time. And I was like, I'm better than that. I'm smarter than that. I don't like that music. Whatever. And then the second that I was out of that context, I listened to pop country, and I was like, this is incredible.
- [55:25]
A
This is actually good. Yeah, it's commentary. It's good.
- [55:28]
B
It's important. Exactly. I've, like, completely re. Embraced it. I listen to country radio all the time. 1065, the wolf. I endure the, like, conservative radio ads just so that I can, like, rock out. And it's part. You know, it's part of my re embracing in my home. It's also part of me appropriating white male culture.
- [55:47]
A
Taking it back.
- [55:48]
B
Taking it back.
- [55:49]
A
We're taking our country back.
- [55:50]
B
Yeah, we're taking our country back.
- [55:52]
A
You have Great taste in music. And I won't say who you've been really obsessed with lately. That lies outside of that scope. But if you could only listen to. If you only listen to two records for the rest of your life, okay. And you hear them everywhere. This is only. These records could play in your movies and your TV shows in the grocery store when you're shopping in the back of the Uber. You would only ever hear music from these two records. No greatest hits albums, because that's a cop out. What would the two records be?
- [56:16]
B
Okay, One of them is definitely In Spite of Ourselves by John Prine.
- [56:22]
A
You love John Pryne.
- [56:23]
B
I love John Prine. I was and maybe still am his youngest, brownest fan. And I.
- [56:31]
A
And I've always said that about you.
- [56:32]
B
You've always said that about me. And people know this about me. I really love John Pryne. Speaking of storytellers, he was one of the best storytellers ever. And I'm also obsessed with the type of person who's like your favorite songwriter's favorite songwriter. He's the songwriter. Songwriter. Right. And he was also just like a kind, amazing man. He loved the Archie comics. He was, like, always eating his hot dogs and ketchup and whatever, you know, there's just. There's so many little, like, John Prynisms that I really love. So. Yeah. In Spite of Ourselves. It's a movie soundtrack. Interestingly, I've never seen the movie, but that soundtrack is amazing. And that's the first set of John Prine songs that I really got into. And then I might say, the Bell album by Al Green.
- [57:20]
A
Oh, God, I love Al Green.
- [57:22]
B
So good. It's this incredible record. Liam put me onto it back in the day, and it is about. It's like his transition from pop music to gospel. And you can really hear it in the record. It's gorgeous, it's fun. But he's also singing about Jesus the whole time. And I love it.
- [57:41]
A
I love that. I absolutely love that for you. You know, I ask people on this show a lot. I think every episode at this point, maybe, or most of them. Well, what do you want, Tara? What is. What is the. What do you want? What do you want out of your life? Where are you going? Where's it all going? What's the point?
- [57:54]
B
What do I want?
- [57:55]
A
What do you want?
- [57:56]
B
I want to win in my life. Obsessive, obsessive power.
- [58:00]
A
Obsessive power. Wants to win.
- [58:01]
B
Yeah. Want to win. But truly, I mean, I think a lot of people in my world are less focused on Winning than we all should be. I really want to win. Like, I don't. I don't. I would prefer not to do all this. Kick up all this dust for the rest of my life. Like, I want to win. I want to win material. A materially better world for our people. And, like, soon we need it.
- [58:25]
A
Yeah.
- [58:25]
B
So I want to win. I also personally want to, like, chill a little bit. I feel like I've been fantasizing about slow mornings with a cup of coffee recently.
- [58:36]
A
Oh, baby.
- [58:36]
B
It's such a simple fantasy. But I want that for me. I want that for all of us. What else do I want? I don't know. I feel some, like, untapped creative energy these days. I do love music. I love art. Organizing is a deeply creative practice for me. But I also feel like there's more. I love design. I love fashion. Like, there's so much stuff I actually would love to do in the world that's beyond what I am currently able to do. So I want to explore some of that. I want to learn how to swim. That's another big one.
- [59:12]
A
Yeah.
- [59:12]
B
Yeah. I don't know how to swim. It's a problem.
- [59:14]
A
I could teach you.
- [59:15]
B
Oh, great.
- [59:15]
A
Maybe we get to the pool when I come back to town.
- [59:17]
B
Let's do it.
- [59:18]
A
What's going on? We'll get to the. We'll get to the. Why?
- [59:19]
B
Yeah.
- [59:20]
A
You and I both Big why girls.
- [59:21]
B
Oh, yeah. Big why, girly.
- [59:22]
A
Big why girly.
- [59:23]
B
Yeah.
- [59:24]
A
I love. I love those ones for you. I see that. All for you. I love that for you. What? Was there something in there that you said Wanting to. Wanting to win? Yeah. I mean, I don't remember what I was thinking, but I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm over the moon that you're obsessed with winning. I wouldn't want anyone else in your position than somebody who deeply wants to win.
- [59:42]
B
Yeah.
- [59:43]
A
And now, yeah, I want to win quickly as well. I think that would be fantastic.
- [59:47]
B
Everyone. Everything for everyone. We want it now. We want it all. Yeah. I think if we're not obsessed with winning, we're doing it wrong. I'm not trying to be in, like, a leftist book club. I want to be in the most powerful tenant union in the country that changes everything and wins better for all of us.
- [60:04]
A
You will just drop, like, the hardest line ever sometimes. Do you know what I mean? Like, you will. Tara will just casually, in conversation be like, I don't want to be in a pussy leftist book club. I want to behead my fucking enemies. It's like, God, I'm obsessed with you.
- [60:18]
B
I mean, you said it better. Thank you for the.
- [60:20]
A
Well, you can't say things like this.
- [60:22]
B
Punch up. Exactly.
- [60:23]
A
I've been big on the slow morning recently.
- [60:25]
B
Yeah.
- [60:26]
A
I've been getting. I've been getting up, smoking a little bit of a joint. Tiny little joint.
- [60:30]
B
Morning, Jay.
- [60:30]
A
Two, three hits. Not right away. I get up, I shower, I do a little bit. Then when I feel my wits about me, then I like to take them back away. I like to build my wits and then cut them back down. I like to get into tune with the world and then go back away. And then I go to the coffee shop, get a latte and an iced vanilla. Thank you. And read my book for, like, an hour.
- [60:52]
B
But this is the problem with you, is that you have this life that I want, and you have no problem telling me about it. I'm like, that sounds amazing. That sounds amazing. Simply not my journey at this moment in time. But thank you for reminding me.
- [61:10]
A
This is the problem with you. You have this life that I want, and you're comfortable telling me about it. That is so fucking funny, dude. Well, I invite you to smoke a little joint in the morning.
- [61:22]
B
Thank you. I love that. I love that. I will consider the invitation it will make. We were talking about this yesterday, but I have to send so many, like, mean emails every day.
- [61:33]
A
Yeah.
- [61:34]
B
And I kind of love it. It's like, as an organizer, I have a daily choice to make about whose team I'm on. I see that as, like, a part of my organizing practice. And as long as I'm choosing the right team, I'm unleashed. I'm the right team's asshole. You know what I mean? Like, I get to be an asshole via email to our enemies because I'm on my team and I need to be their fighter. So I have to compose these emails every day that are just like me at my meanest, most aggro, cutthroat, whatever. And somehow I think they would be even funnier and even more aggro if I was smoking a little J in the morning. So maybe I'll try that.
- [62:12]
A
Literally, you're on email at, like, 4:53pm being like, we will destroy your fucking business. We are going to withhold rent until we get what we deserve. And then five minutes later, you're at dinner with me scratching my back like, how's it going, honey? And I'm like, this is my girl. This is the duality of Tara.
- [62:29]
B
I love that, though. One thing I'm really, really Grateful is in Kansas City, we now have this incredible little friend group that is so separate from my work life and also is filled with other main characters. If I can be so bold. And it's such a fun escape. Like, I love getting to run off, like, right off of a mean email or a work call and going to dinner with our friends and getting to exist in your worlds and learn about what you're up to. It's so cool, and I feel so lucky.
- [63:03]
A
Shout out Kevin and Katie.
- [63:04]
B
Shout out Kevin and Katie.
- [63:05]
A
Shout out Kevin and Katie. And shout out to Tara. What is so true to you?
- [63:09]
B
It's so true to me. The rent is too damn high.
- [63:13]
A
I knew it.
- [63:13]
B
Yeah.
- [63:14]
A
I knew that this would be so predictable.
- [63:15]
B
I'm really sorry.
- [63:16]
A
What if I was like, I don't really agree after all this, I'm like, I don't know. It's all right.
- [63:21]
B
I'm not sure. No, the rent is too damn high. And that is so true and it's so wrong. And let's do something about it.
- [63:26]
A
And we are.
- [63:27]
B
Yeah.
- [63:27]
A
And we will.
- [63:28]
B
We will.
- [63:28]
A
We will. Together. We. So I don't know yet when this episode is coming out, but we are doing a benefit show for the tenant union. As you well know, me and Waxahachie in Kansas City, Missouri, even at the Midland on November 23rd. Bunch of special guests. We've got Beth Stelling. Very funny. We've got the Salvation Choir and we're gonna add some other folks as well. I think Holmes is gonna get to be there, which is gonna be fantastic. And I'm so, so excited for it.
- [63:55]
B
Yeehaw.
- [63:55]
A
I can't wait for Yeehaw. Are you pumped or what?
- [63:58]
B
I'm so pumped. It's really one of the best nights. So fun. Our leaders have a great time. Last year we had like, all these kids on stage, like Casey Tennant's kids on stage, kind of revving the crowd up. Incredible energy. I'm so excited for the guests this year, The Salvation Choir. I just saw that announcement today. Best band in the world. Massive Congolese choir from my neighborhood. Yeah, I'm psyched. It's going to be incredible.
- [64:22]
A
We should come up with a chance. Maybe. Remind me to do this if you could. We should come up with a donation link for the. For people that are fans of the show that can't make it to Kansas City or just want to donate. We should work on that as well.
- [64:34]
B
Love that.
- [64:35]
A
I'm so excited. I just love you, dude.
- [64:36]
B
I love you so much.
- [64:37]
A
Thanks for coming on.
- [64:38]
B
Thank you.
- [64:38]
A
Do you want to tell people where they can find and support?
- [64:41]
B
Sure. Kctenants.org donate and then for updates on the rent strike and all things National Tenant Union Federation AKA Tuff on all the socials, Tenantfed on Instagram, TenantFed on Twitter, tenantfederation.org on the Internet.
- [64:59]
A
I think I'm slacking. I need to go follow. Actually, I think I'm behind. Well, we love you. Thank you for being on Hun.
- [65:04]
B
Thanks Caleb. Love you.
- [65:05]
A
That was a Headgum podcast. Hey everyone, I'm Dan Licata. And I'm Nick Nanny. And we are the hosts of Chicken Padme John now on Headgum. It's the very first podcast for and about Italian Americans. That's right. But if you're not Italian American, you can listen to. I guess I suppose we can let you in. Cut you a deal. We're talking about all sorts of crazy topics on this. Who's a better cook, Nana or Mama? Who you got in that fight? Nona or Mama? I mean, I can't say bad about non or else she smacked me across head. We got some great guests on the show. We got Wayne diamond, we got Ed Motion, we got Mike Hanford and our wife. Severely so subscribe to Chicken Parmesan on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Pocket Cast or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Thursday.