← Sofieland with Sofie Hagen
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- [00:00]
A
Dear citizens of Sophie Land, I will let you listen to the episode in approximately 60 seconds. But first I just want to let you know that my brand new show, I think some of this is my fault, will be going to the Edinburgh Fringe this August. And then in November I'm taking it to Soho Theater in London. Then it's going on tour to Denmark, Copenhagen, Unser and Aarhus, Sweden, Melmurg and Stockholm. Then I'm going to Berlin. I'm going to Rotterdam. The UK dates have just come out which are Leicester, Sheffield, Selby, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Reading, Brighton, Cambridge, London and Exeter. Tickets can be found on sophie hagen.com link is in the show notes alongside the link for the Patreon or the substack. Because this podcast is self produced, meaning I do all of the stuff. I do the editing, the uploading, the booking of the guests, the interviews, every single effing thing. So your support means the whole world to me. So if you sign up for the Patreon or the substack, you will get extra fun bonus content and you get to support me. I really appreciate it. I really love you. Thank you so much for listening. Please enjoy this episode.
- [01:03]
B
Thank you.
- [01:07]
A
I used to do this. My old podcast. I haven't done this in this one yet. It's like my favorite way to start an episode, which is like, where are we meeting you? Like, what's your sort of, how are you feeling? Right, you know, because it's sort of a question.
- [01:18]
B
Yeah, right.
- [01:19]
A
If you. Sometimes you're like, oh, fucking tired. Or like, I was just dumped or like, yeah, all positive things for sure, though.
- [01:25]
B
That's great, actually. Really smart. I. Okay, so it's what, 11? I had to change the time twice of the podcast because I couldn't fall asleep. Doesn't happen to me that often. But I did have a double shot coffee before my show yesterday, but I had like the best show of my life yesterday. So also, that was like, got a standing ovation. My first one.
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A
Baby's first standing ovation.
- [01:49]
B
It was. It was like really nice. Also, like, the way it happened happened slowly. Like, it was like one lady decided and then everyone was sort of like, you know what? Yeah, it was like a sweet sort of. Yeah, I never experienced that. I got to cry on stage, which I had never done either. But it's like, obviously I'm gonna cry if people are, like receiving me in that way. And then I had a really intense conversation about comedy and all of it with you guys right after. And then I got notes from my Director Abby Wamba. I love you. Until like 2. Something in the morning. By the time I got home, I was, like, hyped. So I probably went to bed at like four.
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A
Wow.
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B
I tried. I was already in my bed till from three, but, like.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I just pretend to be asleep for as long as I can. But, like, I wasn't asleep.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then I got up at 9. I got about 10, and then about 10:30, which was the last time. And then I rushed over here.
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A
So you're in that.
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B
Like, I'm a little bit like that.
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A
That's fine. I sort of get. But also, that was a very. I was saying to myself, I can't have existential conversations this. This late in the evening. Because I was the same. I was like, who am I? What am I going to do with my life?
- [02:58]
B
What do I want to say?
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A
Yeah, but. But great. It's. Is that the first proper, proper conversation
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B
we've had, you and I, for sure?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right. Yes.
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A
I was really happy about that as well.
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B
Yeah, I was happy about it too. It felt good also. It felt like. And also I liked how Breed came in in it. Also, my agent, she's so great.
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A
Just like five different people having a conversation about something that's quite intense and important and.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Talked about art and it felt really good. I was really happy.
- [03:28]
B
I was really happy too. And it felt like everybody really got to ask every question. Nothing was like, oh, no, you think this because privilege or whatever. And it was like, if you do think that, it's like, what do you think about this, though? And then ask the question, get the answer. I felt like this was awesome.
- [03:47]
A
I'm really appreciating people. I don't know what the word is. I've been appreciating people who organize recently, people who go, hi, I'm going to be at this cafe. Does someone want to join me? Because it's such a vulnerable, vulnerable thing to do. And I felt yesterday as well, this is like everyone in a group making an effort to include everyone and to have, like, a conversation.
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B
I know.
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A
It just. It feels like the opposite of online or the opposite of just, like, world events. It's like, oh, we're five people connecting.
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B
Yeah. It does feel. I'm feeling like. Because also very grateful for people who do it. And, like, people who, like, go also. It, like, becomes like. It's genuinely very sweet. Like the, like. Yeah. Like when sweetness is palpable, it's, like, amazing. And it also breeds more sweetness.
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A
Yes.
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B
And, you know, and then also you get to feel, like, the difference between when you're being sweet and when you're being nasty. Like, you. You feel it also, you go, oh, look how I was being just yesterday. And right now, I'm, like, a little bit exclusive or whatever. And that difference is also, like, not nice. It's nice. It's good.
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A
It's very nice and good.
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B
How are you? How does this podcast find you right now?
- [05:00]
A
I am. I feel like I have flirted with compassion because we talked a lot about compassion yesterday, and I thought more about compassion and reminded myself of the books I've read about compassion. And I am. I kind of feel like I'm the. If I usually am on a track of just, like, saying and thinking the same things that I've always thought and said, then sometimes I'm shaken off course, and then I start questioning, like, is that what I mean? Is that what I like? Is that what I feel? And oftentimes it's not, which is scary, but good. So I think right now I'm just in this, like, introspective kind of, huh? What if things are good? So I'll be like, it's not. Whatever, I'm tired, or, oh, it's Wednesday, whatever. And I'll go, is that how I feel? No, actually, I'm quite excited about it being Wednesday, and I like the weather right now, and I actually look forward to today. And it's like, who am I? That's not what I'm used to. It's really good. Yeah, you just introduce you to people who don't know you. You're an incredible comedian. Thank you.
- [06:09]
B
Sophie.
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A
Hey, again, one of my favorite comedians. Your show is incredible. You know, this. There was standing in the first time. Well, I'm sure they're not still there, and. But I barely know anything about, like, where you started, because I feel like you. You were at some point in the Netherlands. What is happening?
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B
Yeah. Okay. So my life is like, I'm Latin American. I have Mexican mom, Venezuelan dad, and we grew up in Miami and a little bit in Mexico because of my mom's job. Like, back and forth in Mexico. My mom is a soap actress, and so that's the world I come from. Like a kind of like. Yeah, like, they take it quite seriously. It's like an interesting. I'm getting a newfound respect for the world. I used to feel like, yuck about it, and I used to think tacky, tacky. And I used to think. But what I have a lot of respect for is my mom recently. Different type of like relationship to respect, where it's not like, like just like respect in general, but it's like, right. Like she loves something and like she took care of doing it for like her whole life.
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A
Wow.
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B
And like she stopped for a while because she had kids and then she like got back to it and like. And she's, you know, she's got a big heart, my mom, a really big one. She's sweet. Anyways, she like. Yeah, my house was very liberal, very open, very like, do whatever you want, but don't. You don't need to go to university. You don't need to. Like, my dad's dream is for all of us not to work between four walls. Like that was something he said again and again and again.
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A
For you to not work between four walls.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Oh, that feels good.
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B
Yeah, it like, like, but it's a big value judgment all the time. And like there was like a right way to be in a wrong way to be in the right way was open minded, but being open, being quite close minded about being open minded also.
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A
So very like, yes.
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B
Small cycle. Small cycle. And I did like an associate degree in literature in Miami. And then I applied to universities and I thought I had an opportunity of going to University of Amsterdam, which was like there. It's the option of going somewhere where I don't know what I'm like there, like in Miami. My other option was la, where my sister lived. And it was like, I know where I go there. Like I know whose sister I am, like, who I sort of stay hang out with. Amsterdam's like, I don't know anybody. And I was 20 and then I moved there and like, yeah, my life really shifted in a really big way because it was like possibilities were now new. Like everything could have been. And I think, I mean, like, there were a lot of specific things that got me to start comedy. But I don't think I maybe would have arrived there if I hadn't moved to Amsterdam, which is crazy because it's like my vocation and like, it's like without question the thing I should be doing for me. And yeah, like, it was like because of a lot of decisions that I'm going, I don't know, but I think I gotta go there. And then, yeah, I ended up living there for eight years. I studied political theory there, political science. I thought I wanted to be seriousperson.com and like now it turns out I don't. Like, I mean, I am quite serious. I'm quite serious actually. But like, I'm not like, I Just want to be like, if I'm going to be playful, I want to be sincere. Like, I don't want to be taking the piss of an out. Anything. I don't care about that anyways. And then I lived there for eight years, and I've just moved to London now because I stayed much longer because I had a boyfriend who moved over to be with me. And so it just meant, like, right. Like, I'm not going to leave and I'm going to cough on the podcast. Yeah. So I stayed longer than I thought I would, but I lived in Amsterdam for all that time.
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A
So you arrived. Did you get to, like, reinvent yourself?
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B
Yeah.
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A
And just be like, who am I gonna be in Amsterdam?
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B
Yeah. Also, like, I feel like the way in which I was, like, sort of settled into a sort of person is. It was, like, accidental. Everything sort of felt like it wasn't a choice up until that moment. Like, I was, like, part of this friend group in school. And so, like, I just cared about the stuff. Kind of my friend group cared about. Like, I don't. Like, I was a spear fisher.
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A
Sorry.
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B
Yep. That is a person who goes underneath the water and kills fishes down there in the water.
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A
I was about to say, like, Moana, but I've not seen Moana.
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B
I just kind of Moana style. She does, like.
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A
She's spears fishes.
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B
She. For sure she spears fishes, even if
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A
it's not in the film. I think she does it outside the film. Well, you. That's incredible. How do you. Why do you.
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B
Because I had a boyfriend who did that. Like, it was like, that's the kind of way that I was operating, you know, like, somebody has an interest, I'm near them. That's my interest, you know?
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A
Oh, it's. No way. Way too well.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Oh, my God. The football matches. I've seen the Roman DVDs about the Roman Empire. I've watched and been like, wow, that's. That's a different kind of sword, I guess. I'm very curious about the sword.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That's really fun.
- [11:00]
B
Yeah. I did that for, like, two years in, like, a pretty serious way. Like, I really. I would go every week and. But also, he had, like. He was like, a boating family. And so, like, it was, like, an amazing opportunity to do something that I would have never done, which was awesome. But, like. Yeah. Like, to say, like, I knew what I liked or I knew what I was. I was very rebellious against my family, which really just kind of ended up me being really religious in my high school. Yeah. I Was pretty religious in my high school. Like, I was like, yeah. Like, I got, like, picked as a leader in the faith. I got sent to this place in New Jersey with a hundred of the most spiritual individuals in the country.
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A
What kind of religion? What religion?
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B
It was like, first I went to Episcopalian school, then I went to Salesians. These are like different branches of Christianity.
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A
Are they the people who only eat fish?
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B
No.
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A
Okay.
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B
But it's good.
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A
So what is that? That's God. It's Christianity. Yeah, kind of Christianity.
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B
Roman Catholicism. Actually, the. The Salesians were Roman Catholic.
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A
Okay. Oh, okay.
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B
I don't know anything about the intricacies of literally any of it, but, like, I cared so much about being, like, chosen. I think that that was like the. There was a nun. I would go to these retreats. The retreats were fun. Like, they were just like, in the weekend, you wouldn't have your phone. Like, everybody was together. People would, like, really reflect on their lived experience. These are all like 17 year olds, like, really kind of thinking because they have to give a speech to their peers about, like, what God means to them. But, like, we all took it really seriously. Yeah. And it was really endearing. And, like, our school had like a program where, like, people that didn't have the means to pay for the school were able to be part of it. And so you would get to hear from people that were like, all sorts of relating to class and privilege in all sorts of different ways. And it was incredibly moving. And also it was very trauma sort of related. So then you got really close really fast. Yeah. Which made for like. I mean, when you're 16 and you get to feel all these, like, nothing better than feeling feelings at that moment. It feels like you're alive and like you're part of it. And yeah, you get to sleep over at the school. And like, it was amazing. And I gave a speech one time which was kind of about, like, my struggle with my parents. Like, how my dad, like, my dad thought it was ridiculous because my dad's a very big atheist and he's like. He's like. He just can't even sustain the thought that anybody would believe in stuff. Like, he's like, come. Like, the way that I, in my show talk about atheists is the way that my dad would talk about people who believe stuff, which is like, come. Are you stupid, man? Wake up. What are you gonna believe? There's a God. And. Come on. And then it's just like from that. Yeah. Incredulity word question mark.
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A
I'll take It. It is now.
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B
And it is now. But, like, yeah, from, like, that place of, like, no fucking, like, come on. Which is a very hard place to argue from. It, like, removes the bottom. You can't, like, access, like. Cause you're going, right what you're saying. You're, like, marking me. Ridiculous. So now I don't have a. Like, I'm not part of this conversation. And he would do that to me a lot about, like, being whatever, believing. Cause I would say stuff like, I feel the light. I would say stuff like that, and I would be like, you don't understand me. Also, typical. Typical teenager. But it was all about, like, God for me.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But I think it's so. Because I was. That, I think, is also the reason I now am so against people who are, like, militant atheists against people. That's not what I mean. But, like, why. When I hear people be like, why do you think those? I just think it's because I know that when I was a militant atheist, when I was 17 years old, it came from a place of, like, not daring to believe in anything, because that felt vulnerable and that felt scary. So it was easier to say, oh, you're just being stupid. I'm actually smart. And so when you see people doing that now, I'm just like. And what got me out of that was just meeting a bunch of religious people who were super nice and chill and happy and kind and just enjoying themselves. Like, none of them were trying to make me religious.
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B
Yeah. And I was like, why would you.
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A
Like, I was being so stuff. And I just think it's fear.
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B
Yeah, I definitely. Right. It's overwhelming also, like, when you get to, like, if you do believe in whatever. It's like, I actually had a good talk about. I mean, Leo Reich and I are in constant conversation all the time about,
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A
like, very good comedian.
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B
Very good comedian who I love with my heart. I love him so much. And we're in constant conversation about, like. Because there's, like, this fear that we both hold about, like, being too much all of the time or, like, too intense. And then, like, being in an interaction, being like, oh, my God, Like, I said exactly what I thought, and, like, I didn't. And I was like, wait. Like, everybody's gonna be like, wait. And then you go, right, that's how I'm being now. Like, do I want to be that way? Do I? Like, Like. And then we both kind of are with each other. Like, come on, we're alive. And, like, it's nice to hear it from Each other. Because I like the way that he is and he likes the way that I am. So it's like a sort of like. Yeah. Person to go to when you're feeling that. Because I'm having these feelings now, like, about, like, certain things where I'm like, believing too hard about some things and it's making me a bit angsty about the fact that they might not be true. And I don't like that place because that's a different sort of place to operate from. Because I can feel the fear of it, which is the risk of believing too hard in something, which is, of course, the surety then ruin thing. And like, you have to like.
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A
Which is.
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B
Yes. The oracle of Delphi maxim. Some of the Delphic maxims that were in the temple of Delphi with the oracle who told Oedipus. You say Oedipus Agri. That what they called. He was gonna. His mom kill his dad. Which we all remember, of course, because she was famous for that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But they had these maxims and they're also like, in Wikipedia you can read that there were like 96 of them and they all fell.
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A
How do you define what's a maxim? Like, I. I've. What is it?
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B
A maxim is like a. Like a sort of. And I'm making it up, I think, like a rule.
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A
Ah, yes. Okay.
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B
Like a. Like a commandment. Like a command.
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A
Yes. Okay.
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B
Kind of like a. What is the word? Where. It's like a pillar.
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A
Yeah, pillar.
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B
Yeah, that. Something like. Like sturdy that you go, right. This is something we can all agree on type of thing.
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A
Ah. And one of them is surety. Sure is he then ruined.
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B
Yeah. Which. Another way of saying that is.
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A
Never trust anything.
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B
Well, it's like, don't. It's like about rigidity. Like really, like. It's about like. Like a deep. An unshakable idea knowing. It's different than a knowing.
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A
Oh, God, I feel like I'm about to say something that Socrates.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Wasn't it. Was that him who said. The only thing I know for sure is that I don't know anything. Something like that.
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B
Yeah. I don't know who exactly.
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A
It was someone. Someone like that said it.
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B
But. But someone like that definitely said it.
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A
Yeah, someone said it at some point. And now I've said it.
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B
And now you've definitely said it. So if somebody wants to say you said it, they're right.
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A
They're right.
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B
They're not wrong.
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A
I believe it was Sophie Hagen who said that it was probably Socrates or Freud who Said, yeah.
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B
And you're correct. Yeah, that happened. We lived it. So you're gonna say we did it because we did. Yeah, there's. Yeah. The only thing I know that I don't know. And also, like, at the same time, knowing that you don't know gives you a sort of. Like, this is always the issue, which is the thing that I find when also talking about atheists. It's like buying. Discrediting them. I am crediting myself. Like, I cannot get out of that loop. Can I curse on here?
- [19:18]
A
Oh, absolutely. I was just trying to. You say so many things. I. I wish I could pause time to just, like, take stuff in where I'm like, okay, I need to reflect on this for, like, half an hour.
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B
No, let's reflect on it right now.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. That's what. Think I'm recording this. I can go. Okay. Morning page is about everything. Say that again.
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B
That I buy with when I talk about atheists and, like, the way that I do it, which is like, guys, be serious.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I am discrediting them, right?
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A
Yes. And then you're crediting yourself, and then that becomes a loop.
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B
It just. It, like, the inevitability of that is so, like, I. I have this bit about, like, they. It's like we're all naked in the mud.
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A
Yes.
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B
And they get out of the mud and they put on a suit, and they look down at everybody in the mud, and they're like. And it's like, buddy, your suit is full of mud. But the thing that I'm doing by saying, buddy, your suit is full of mud, which, like, I will go into at some point, I think, in some sort of 10 of it, when I work on it, is like I'm grabbing their face and I'm squishing their face into the mud. And that's a person I'm doing that to.
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A
I know what you mean. But I think there is a point where we can go. And I think. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, because I think I feel the same way where the things that I. I think I could question every single thing I think and believe until I'm just like, well, I don't know. I got nothing now. But at some point, someone has to say something, and then. So it can become a conversation. And you're allowed to say something that isn't complete or finished or perfect.
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B
Yes.
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A
So then other people can have their thoughts about it. And I think sometimes I'm. I'm waiting for myself to know something for sure, for sure. So then I can say it. And then everyone, everyone would be like, oh, finally the perfect thing has been said. We. No one else needs to speak now, but this is not gonna happen.
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B
Also, like, how uninteresting in the end.
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A
How boring. Of course, how boring to be perfect.
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B
I know until.
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A
But I will get that one day.
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B
But you better be sure you're gonna see me at the top.
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A
Yes.
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B
There's like that thing about that we were talking about yesterday also. It's like that there is a sort of tendency right now to be like, yeah, like, I just watched this sweet video online of Caro Yost from Simple Town. She, like, made like, a small song where she's singing and being like, the president of the United States had just said he wants to, like, bomb the whole civilization. And she's singing and she's like, clapping and being, like, kind of, like tender about it and, like, small and like. And she put the only thing more humiliating. There's nothing more humiliating than, like, what's happening in our government. Like, there's nothing that can be humiliating now because of what's happening. And it's like that place that we're at is freedom. Actually. Like, there's freedom there. There's real freedom in where we have arrived at that is like, it's not cynical. It's. Everything matters and so we must rather than nothing matters. So who fucking cares? Which is, I think, the place where we've been for a long time. Like this. Like. Like also the inevitability of cynicism, where you were like, you're looking at everything and you go, there's no fucking way I can do anything. I'm screaming, but, like, there's no fucking way I can do anything. Because it's like, it's. It's ruined. But you're going, right? If it's feeling like it's ruined, then I have to do something, and I have to do it from my heart. Because to do something without my heart when everything is like this, which is kind of going back to what we were saying yesterday. It's like this decision about artistry and your role in the world. It's like the only thing that you can do because you see the world and are affected by it, because you can't help but be affected by the world because it hurts. It hurts what's happening. And it's like, because it hurts, you have to let it hurt your heart. And then you have to go like, okay, what is actually still true in my. I know I don't know anything. But like, I have some feelings.
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A
Yeah. And other people will have those feelings too.
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B
Yeah. And like those are true. The feelings are true. Like feelings are true in a way that other stuff isn't. And we're so disconnected from that. And like when you start like being like, what is the feeling I have? And then like, if I really find it, yes, people will have it too. Other people are gonna like feel it. But mainly like I give myself the opportunity to have something that's true when everything is not. And then that's the opportunity I'm giving other people to really have something that's true.
- [23:46]
A
Do you have daily practices of things that you do to sort of. I know, keep your like mental health aligned or like your like self care or like rituals or routines? Is there like what do you do in your day to day life to kind of.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah, I talk to people I love. I like. I'm in close contact with people I love and that I know love me like that's it actually for me.
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A
I think a part of me was like, what lotion? What's the, what candle? Is there a candle? Is there a candle for this? Oh, okay. Yeah. Community shit. Why do I buy that?
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B
That's so funny.
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A
Sometimes you learn about yourself by learning about others. It's not always good.
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B
That's so funny.
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A
Yeah. I haven't heard of that brand. Your friends at the store when you buy the things that help.
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B
That's very funny. Yes, it's that actually.
- [24:51]
A
Yeah.
- [24:53]
B
And if people who have already tapped into something I already know is important too. So like we have like shared understanding of like importance.
- [25:02]
A
Great.
- [25:02]
B
That one feels necessary. Also, I was talking to my friend here who's like, doesn't have any friends who are like in the world or like, like his friends are like musicians or like whatever. Like.
- [25:12]
A
Oh, you mean like in the comedy world.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah. Oh yeah. Comedy world. And like in like the crazy for me to just be able to say in the world. But that's how inside of it I am. I'm like fucking imbued in it. Yeah. I was like, I was like, I think it would be very hard for me if I wasn't in constant contact with people who I was going, right. And they're going, yeah, like that part that like small loop I am like, I'm checking in that all of the time. I'm like making big statements also to people that I'm going. You care if I say something that isn't like, right, right again, very much. I'm saying like relevant and nuanced and sensitive in that way. Right. Like, if I'm like making a statement about like, oh, I am like being so intense with these people yesterday. And like, I just feel like, come on. About the way I'm gonna be. Like, if I'm 29 and I'm like that now, what am I gonna be like when I'm 60? You know, like, it's just like Lana. And then I can make that statement to my friend and my friend can be like, what do you think the point of being alive is? And I can go, thank you. That to me is like the fix. Because I'm not that. Not. I don't. It's not that I don't have any of these, like, pit of the stomach open moments where you go, what the fuck? Actually, but I have them less and less when I am in close contact with the people that I trust. Because trust is fucking everything, of course. And like, I think one thing that has all that I've done that has like opened my heart in a different way. I do have an open heart already. And my mom is like, open hearted person. So I did start like, way further along and like, I didn't have to do some sort of like, uncracking sort of work, which that's just the case for how it was for me. My mom did a lot of uncracking work and got. And God, is she like, not. She's mentally ill, man, for sure. But like, the way in which she's mentally ill is like, she can really allow herself to feel all the feelings. And then also, yeah, she's bipolar. And so like, like, it just means like, I have seen the breadth of emotions and I have like, rejected it. And I have also like, then seen the value of it and like, difficult in some, a lot of ways. And then also, like incredibly beautiful and nourishing. And like, now that I'm 29, I really have like a grip on. Oh, thank God. Actually for this specific type of mental
- [27:48]
A
illness, I think that is the best way to. To deal with parents. Yeah. Is to go, what are the. What's the good thing about the way they fucked me up?
- [27:59]
B
Yeah.
- [28:00]
A
How. How. What was the. What is the. There was someone on another podcast who asked their guest, what was the thing that your parents did? Right. And I really like that. To go like, oh, my mother is fucked. I was so fucked. But my guy and living with her, I'm seeing. God, I appreciate this. I appreciate this thing so much. The other could have lived without. But this bit, this is really important.
- [28:23]
B
What is it?
- [28:24]
A
I think, I mean my. The first thing that popped into my head was punctuality which is just. But she's doing it from a point of like care and a point of like being really good at planning and like the way she throws herself at projects in a very sort of hyper focused like all engrossing. Like I really enjoy the sort of when her mind. Because she is super creative without knowing it. She's worked in a factory since she was 14.
- [28:54]
B
She like.
- [28:54]
A
But she. So she doesn't think of herself as creative or me, which is another thing. But she's.
- [29:01]
B
That's crazy. But it's like yeah, it's capacity.
- [29:04]
A
Yeah. She's, she's, she's. She thinks I'm on holiday right now. She refuses to acknowledge that I do work. But she's so creative when she wants to like she just wants to build something and she'll be like, I need to go to these shops, I need to get this and then I'm going to measure this and I'm going to build this where I'm like, you can just buy it finished and it exists and it's going to be cheaper. And she's like, no, because she has it in her head that she's going to do this thing and it's going to work like this and it's incredibly creative and I can see she's enjoying it. But I don't think she would describe it as. She would just be like, it's a practical thing that I need to do. But this is like a passion of hers. Like when I'm like. I would say to her, oh, I need to move the furniture around in my flat because I don't know how to blah, blah. I have some logical issue with the TV. Doesn't something. Something she would build like a 3D like little replica of my flat and make all the furniture in like the right sizes and stuff so you can see how it moves around.
- [30:03]
B
It's like that's insane.
- [30:05]
A
It's incredible. Right? It's incredible. And she's just like, well it's just me doing a practical solution. Wow. It's not. You're playing and being creative and like solving a thing and hyper focusing on like a special interest topic. That's really cool.
- [30:21]
B
That's really cool.
- [30:23]
A
And also probably why I have a, a love of rules and spreadsheets.
- [30:29]
B
Yeah. Because I mean it like allows. I was thinking exactly about that yesterday. Like there are all of these ways in which your parents give you lessons that like they don't know they're giving you lessons. And like the ones that like when they've connected to something that's important for them, those are the ones that matter the most. Which is like kind of the job of the person when you're alive before you have children to connect to the things that are important to you because you're gonna be giving those lessons in small ways. And like, I mean this isn't small. This is huge. But like so funny that she wouldn't even consider that a lesson.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah.
- [30:58]
B
It's incredibly moving.
- [31:00]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think she and I don't. Not just her. I think a lot of parents think that the lessons are like the things that they tell you.
- [31:07]
B
Yeah.
- [31:08]
A
But then we watch them live. Yeah. Like. Well, I'm not going to listen to. I know that one thing you said that one time. If I see you doing the opposite.
- [31:16]
B
Yeah.
- [31:17]
A
It's crazy and true. Yeah.
- [31:18]
B
Yeah. My. I just talked about this because my mom would do and now also like she's especially with care and stuff like my. Well, there's like two things that I've been thinking about lately that I just talked about also in another podcast. So I'm gonna do it again.
- [31:36]
A
Two podcasts.
- [31:37]
B
No one lives. It's one or the other big time. The with like the way that my parents have taken what especially my dad. My dad cares a lot about cooking. Like my family's like big. Like sometimes I feel like if I don't cook for a long time, like I am like letting go of my last name. Like that's the way it feels like it is an essential part of being ricote that we. And we care about it because my dad makes like confit garlic that he makes beforehand. And so they're always in the fridge. He makes a sun dried tomato that's always in the fridge. He makes spices. Like you can buy spices regular made already with the exact combination that he has. But he adds like one more or whatever. So he makes them, he dries them, he puts them in like he does this preparation work that is like a lot of work. He doesn't consider it work. He considers it the things that you do. It's similar, not the thing. And it's like he puts them in the fridge and whenever he starts a meal he starts fucking 15 steps ahead of anything because this meal is now starting with some dried, some dried tomatoes. And the garlic confit that you made already, that's like so like there's like a softness and a butteriness that like Is baseline, you know that. Wow. And I was sitting the other day with my sister who I love so much, my little sister who's like, I get to really have the same like, looking at the world because she does clown. And like, I appreciate clown so much for like the sensibility of it and like the like, active connection with like, what is in front of me and like, what am I look, what am I reacting to? And I love that part about clown. And she does that for like her life, which is amazing. And we were talking about like luck and stuff. And like. Cause it's so. Luck is so crazy. And like. And also they do say that. I think it was Socrates or Freud who said luck is when opportunity meets preparation. Right thing you hear. And then that's like a way to have a little bit of a grip on something that is obviously not grippable and obviously like beyond like, has to do with so many things. And it's not simple. And it's privilege also. And it's class and it's. And it like emotional relationship between your parents. And like, it's so many things of course, that like how. Where you get to begin. But there is an element from wherever you begun, starting from that point that it is like when you. When the opportunity arrives, could you take it? Yeah. And. And preparation isn't the only thing that allows you to take that. But sometimes you could have prepared and sometimes you have prepared and my dad has prepared for whatever meal that the like that could arise, you know, and he never said that to us, but he did that and he really did that. And I think I am a person who has deep care. Like, I really care. That's one thing I like. Like, I don't like, not for maybe rules, for example. That's one thing. But it's interesting because like, the way that I feel about rules is like. Cause my dad is an anti vaxxer also. And like, that's something that's like, yeah. Something that I like for a long time, like, no. And now the way I feel about it now is like, I don't like, agree with him, but I am allowed a way of engaging with societal rules that is really, like, I don't think about them like, oh, that's the rule. I think about them like, what do I think about that rule? And that's what my anti vaxxer dad has awarded me, which is like, bad in some ways, of course. And also like, it has allowed me a sort of freedom with engaging with reality because it's a different starting point. You go, it should be about how I feel about this thing. Because nothing is rigid and true. There is a way. And obviously, science, that's something else. Where you go, yeah, but at the same time, this is my problem. Where I go, like, science is built. Yeah. It's built on the questions that we asked. And who asked the question and why did we ask that question? And where do we arrive at the feeling where that's the answer, which I. I just think, like, no, I'm gonna take the medicine also. And, like, I'm not. Like, that's not my fight.
- [35:48]
A
Yeah.
- [35:48]
B
The. I think my dad lives in the United States, and big pharma is really difficult because you know that they're doing it for money. So it's, like, difficult to go, yeah, okay, fine. Yeah, you can be the decider.
- [35:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:59]
B
Because they are doing it for money.
- [36:00]
A
Yeah.
- [36:01]
B
In the lobby, and you can see it. So it's difficult for me. That's not my big issue. But in terms of rules and how I like to look at stuff, like, yeah, I'm like. I'm wondering first about how I feel about it.
- [36:14]
A
And there's also. Which. My mother cares about rules in terms of some things, but she couldn't give a. About what people think of her. Could not during. COVID her. The. The mask slash helmet that she created.
- [36:32]
B
Physical, actual, real.
- [36:33]
A
Yeah. Like, she made, like, her. It looked like an. What's it called? Like, an astronaut thing. Because she was just like, oh, that's what I'm gonna wear to not, like, catch this. It must have looked so weird. But she couldn't give a. What people think of her. She could not give us. Like, she really just doesn't care. She's like, well, yeah, I wear this because this is the most practical thing to wear. Like, I don't care how it looks. She would never wear makeup. She would never. Like. Like, that is, like, that's the rule where she's like. But what she does care about is, like, arriving at the train station 20 minutes before the train, because that's what you do. Like, that kind of thing. And I just think that that's a. That is another thing I really appreciate is she's just, like, not concerned with how people would react to her being, like, not normative. That's really cool. And then there are other things where you go. And then. And then you learn that. And then I go, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't care about people, period. Like, there's a very, like, hyper individualism about it as well, where I'm like. But actually, it's also quite nice to reach out to people and, you know, have some. The opposite of rigidity.
- [37:42]
B
Yeah.
- [37:42]
A
But also, I don't even know what the opposite word is.
- [37:45]
B
I guess maybe some sort of flow thing.
- [37:47]
A
Flexibility.
- [37:48]
B
Flexibility, yes. Play. I do think that, like, the thing about it is, like, not caring what people think about you is actually, like. It's not not caring what people think about you. It's deciding which one of the thoughts isn't relevant to you. And, like, that actually what it gives you is, like, an opportunity for real closeness with people because you are not gonna sort of, like, move yourself in a way so that you are loved, which actually gives people the opportunity to see you and love you. So what she's doing is a service to her and others by, like, not sort of changing the fundamentals of her.
- [38:27]
A
Yeah.
- [38:28]
B
To be loved, which is one of the classic things we all do. It's like when you learn that one and you go, please. Oh, my God. Because the thing about love being such an ample, like, like, stretched word that stretches for so many things is, like, you sometimes think, like, that's love. And then you're going, right. It couldn't be loved because I wasn't part of it. I was being fucking something else. So that could not have been love. I didn't give myself the opportunity for love because I made myself into something new because I thought that's what the person wanted. That's the same thing about comedy, though. It's the same thing. It's like, I can only do what is exactly what I want to do, because if not, I'm not giving myself the opportunity to be seen. I'm not giving myself the opportunity to be understood. And then there's no point to what I'm doing. And if there's no point, what the is going on? There has to be a point. I'm moving this microphone away from me.
- [39:25]
A
You do whatever you need to do.
- [39:26]
B
Okay.
- [39:27]
A
We'll figure it out. Okay. Can you. Clowning?
- [39:32]
B
Yeah.
- [39:32]
A
Clowning feels like the sort of thing that I. I have a. I feel like I. I need to try the A course. And also it terrifies me more than anything I can possibly imagine. And I love it.
- [39:50]
B
I wouldn't be great at it.
- [39:51]
A
No.
- [39:51]
B
Yes, you would.
- [39:52]
A
But I love it when people shit on clowning. That makes me feel good because that justifies me in not doing it because it's scary. So I'm constantly between two camps of like. But I feel like anti clowning is the Equivalent of millicent atheism. What a sentence.
- [40:11]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [40:12]
A
But, right, it's like that. Like, no, I'm just gonna do this. It's just about the wor. But just every time I hear someone like you talk about clowning, and then I see your show, and I'm like, duh. I just think it makes people better at this. And I don't think I would ever be, like, the same type, but fuck, it would make. I think I need it. I had this visualization where I was trying because I get quite angsty on stage. And then I thought, okay, what would. I was trying to visualize, okay, I'm on stage. There's a full room of people. I'm not allowed to say anything. Like, I need to just stand there until I'm comfortable. And then I was like, that feels like something you'd be asked to do in a clowning course.
- [40:53]
B
Yeah.
- [40:54]
A
Like, just be there. Just sit and feel.
- [40:56]
B
Yeah, a lot of times. Yeah. And it's like. Well, the thing is, like, those are the nice type of fears, right? Because you go, right. This fear is like, yeah, it's scary, but it's like, really? Like, I'm not gonna die, actually, though, my ego will.
- [41:13]
A
Right.
- [41:14]
B
Wouldn't that be cool? Have you ever done mushrooms?
- [41:17]
A
No. I took one, like, one microdose, and that didn't do anything.
- [41:21]
B
Yeah.
- [41:21]
A
But it's on my list of things to do.
- [41:24]
B
Right. The way I feel about mushrooms is the way I feel about clowning. Sometimes it's like. Like an opportunity to, like, have a bit of clarity around, like, something that is just. Is, like, with mushrooms, I have this feeling of, like, oh, my God. Of course. Like, of course. Of course. Everything. Of course. Like, the buildings make us feel like we're, like, doing this, like, rigid. It's like, obviously, of course. Like, right next to. It's like a tree. And, like, we couldn't have. Like, the tree can't even be anywhere except right where it is, and it will try to make its way out. And, like, we put these built, like, all these things that I'm like. I'm like, every. The clue is in the pudding. Like, everything is there. Everything is there. And you can sense how part of everything you are when you're on mushrooms. I love them. I can't believe we get that gift of being able to sense something that you have an inkling about, you know these things to be true. But then when you're on mushrooms, you go, they are. They are. And they're the good ones. They're the good type of feelings that I thought were true, and they're true. And there's so much, like, release and freedom there. And when you're watching in clown. When you're watching somebody, like, Like. Because what you do a lot in the clown workshops is watch other people get up there and fuck it. Like, you just. Everybody's fucking it up. So the like. And I know it's like, the thing that hurts the most is you. It doesn't matter that every single person has fucked it. When you fuck it, it's like the worst. But when you watch them, there is such a clear moment where you know that they are doing the thing, like, and you can see them fully because they're. The pleasure. They're. They're playing with pleasure. They're like, whatever's coming out of them, it's coming out of them with, like. Because they can't help it. And they got excited and they feel it. And, like, because they feel it, you feel it and you go. And then they start doing it for the laugh or for. And then it goes. And then you go, hate this. And it was just 10 seconds ago you were in. And that switch that goes on and off during the workshop, it goes. That's the kind of the practice of, like, training your eye to the sensitivity thing that you later train, like, your body to also with, like, am I feeling it or am I not? If I'm not, this isn't it. You go, yeah, there is some. I think that there are all kinds of clown teachers, and I would like, you should ask me before. There are some wonderful heart open ones that, like, treat you like you're trying to figure something out rather than, like, you don't understand, which is, like, why would you.
- [43:56]
A
I think the first time I heard of a clown workshop, someone said he made us all get naked and run through the streets because that would made us feel like then we could do anything. And I just thought, well, absolutely never doing that. Absolutely never doing that. So whoever you recommend. Not that one.
- [44:13]
B
No, not that one. I've never done that personally.
- [44:16]
A
Okay.
- [44:17]
B
None of that naked stuff. I think that there's, like, Lucy Hopkins, which is the lady I talked to you about yesterday, who's like, an incredible clown that has, like, really opened my, like, yeah, she, like, she, like how she told me, tap my heart before I go on stage. I do that every time, which is just like, tap, tap. Like, just like, awaken my body and awaken my heart. Relationship to my heart. And like, like think about it. Like, it is a sacred space. I'm about to go on and, like, just, like, the assumption of sanctity is like a new thing that, like, you just realize, like, when you assume, then it is.
- [44:50]
A
It's like, this is so good.
- [44:53]
B
But it's just that. Huh? It just is. Like, I'm so preachy, I can't even believe.
- [45:00]
A
And I fall for it so hard. I just feel. I feel. But I do feel like there should be a rule in clown courses, which is the same rules as in aa, where you don't have to say your name and no one can ever tell anyone else that they saw you there. One day, I'll just be better at comedy, and no one will know why.
- [45:16]
B
You know what you could do is go to another country to do it.
- [45:19]
A
I would 100% go to another country. Clown calls in Denmark? Absolutely not. They would. I bet they have, like, protesters outside, like they do in abortion clinics.
- [45:29]
B
Maybe there's a guy called Aitor who has a thing called Spy Monkey. That's a really good one. And they go around to different places.
- [45:36]
A
Oh, good. They travel.
- [45:37]
B
They travel.
- [45:37]
A
I'll go the furthest away.
- [45:39]
B
Yeah, you. Could you maybe go to Spain?
- [45:40]
A
Yeah, that's what. Learn Spanish to do it.
- [45:42]
B
I think that literally, it doesn't even matter what language. My mom did a clown course with me and my sister just now. We gifted it to her for Christmas. Five days with, like. And it was. Yeah, it was really cool. It was really, really cool. It was also, like. There's also somewhere at some point you're doing Intro to Clown that. Like, I've done too many Intro to Clowns right now. Like, I've. Like. Like, I. That's a little bit now. It's not that I got it. I'm not even great at it.
- [46:07]
A
Senior clown, Advanced clowning.
- [46:09]
B
I'm bad in the workshops. I am barely getting laughed. Like, barely. Barely. I've sometimes had these moments. No, but it's really like. It's like you get up there and sometimes and it's like, who is that? I don't even know who that is. And, like, I'm uncomfortable. They're uncomfortable. Not night. But then sometimes, like, you let it die. And they go, is anybody? Because also, they say mean stuff in the ones that I've been to.
- [46:33]
A
Okay, that's fine. I could deal with that.
- [46:35]
B
Not the ones that you're gonna go to, though.
- [46:37]
A
Okay.
- [46:37]
B
But, like, there's some that I have been to that, like, they. Yeah, they go, like. But it's not even mean stuff. They're just going, is anyone laughing? You're going, no. Then why are you still doing that?
- [46:48]
A
You go, yep, of course.
- [46:52]
B
Change that the rule also, which is like, oh my God, tell me something about life. That is if it not working, change. Be sensitive to what's happening and change. Try something new and try it with your whole heart. And if that doesn't work, change.
- [47:13]
A
Change your heart. Just change your heart.
- [47:15]
B
Get a new heart. Your heart is.
- [47:19]
A
They say I. Okay, so you're def. You're deaf. And I knew this already. But just to make it. Just to make it public and official, of course you're allowed to stay in Sophie Land. This lovely land where everything is nice and it's nice. Of course you are. And I would also love for you to be on the government. The government of Sophia, the government of Sophie Land, which it is a dictatorship. Oh. So I can veto anything just in case.
- [47:44]
B
It's good to know when something is a dictatorship.
- [47:47]
A
Yeah. And I'm very open about it. But it's benevolent and good and nice. And you're allowed to leave. You're allowed to leave. People are allowed to leave.
- [47:52]
B
Awesome.
- [47:52]
A
But you won't want to.
- [47:53]
B
Oh.
- [47:53]
A
Because it's very nice. So you get to make a law. What do you want to do? I can be so it if it's bad, but I feel like it won't be.
- [48:01]
B
Wow. Thank you for the truck.
- [48:03]
A
What's the law that you want to do in the land?
- [48:05]
B
Wow. Everybody in this place has to do what I say over one thing.
- [48:09]
A
Yeah. It could. Well, it could be. It could also just be something they're not allowed to do. Or you could. Anything, any. Any kind of law.
- [48:17]
B
This is really a good question.
- [48:20]
A
We've had a quite a lot of people just immediately wishing the death penalty about smaller things. So if you were going to start killing people that' Imagine after all I've
- [48:30]
B
said, that's why I say I go the death penalty and. And there's no judicial system. If I were to really think about this, I do think that it's something I would like is like for people to be like sort of forced to commune in some way is how I want it. Like, I feel like there should be sort of like. Like check in group style stuff. Maybe. Maybe it would be like Quaker meeting style check in that like people would have to go to. People would have to spend an hour in silence a week and assume that anything that they. That went into their head was sacred for that hour.
- [49:17]
A
Yes. How would we do this without it being religious? You know In a way that would make people feel uncomfortable.
- [49:24]
B
Well, therefore maybe dictatorship.
- [49:27]
A
That is true.
- [49:27]
B
And it's also. You don't say who it is that's talking to them. It's just sacred. And it's one hour. You sit down. It's non hierarchical. Nobody rules the thing.
- [49:34]
A
Yeah.
- [49:35]
B
And you can. If at any moment. Moment. If at any moment you feel like something has been said to you from your head that is sacred.
- [49:42]
A
Yeah.
- [49:42]
B
That is like a click in moment, which is like something has, like, clicked inside of you. You stand up and you say it, and then you sit back down.
- [49:48]
A
Yeah. Almost like a. Like a weekly, like, therapy hour where everyone meets in, like, their local. Their local meeting point. You just go.
- [49:56]
B
Only 40 people per plate.
- [49:58]
A
Okay. Yes.
- [49:59]
B
So there's many.
- [49:59]
A
Like the street. Just like the street you live on. Yeah. We all go to this place once a week. I like that. That would be great.
- [50:05]
B
It's kind of like church. But you're just. You're just silent for an hour. And you assume that everything that is happening in your brain is something that you should look at, that you should ask questions to, that you should think about.
- [50:16]
A
I like this.
- [50:17]
B
Okay. That's my rule.
- [50:19]
A
I like this. I really like this.
- [50:21]
B
Thank you.
- [50:21]
A
I mean, I'd be scared of going myself, but I don't have to because I'm the dictator. But I will. I will. To set a sample. I want to set an example to show that.
- [50:29]
B
And people go, what meeting is she gonna show up in?
- [50:32]
A
Even your leader will do this, even though she's scared. Because it's okay to be scared.
- [50:37]
B
That's what your leader said.
- [50:38]
A
But if. If they found out that their leader is taking a clown course, that would
- [50:43]
B
be good for them. Imagine if all leaders in the world got to take a clown corps. I know, but it's like, the thing is, it's not a clown course. What I want for them to take. What I want for them to take is, like, lobotomy. No, I want, like, them to go for like a. Like a week, maybe two weeks, where they do mushrooms. And, like, they're like, there's like a shaman. And, like, they have to connect to, like, the earth. And, like, they have to see the things that are in front of them. That's what I want. Like, I don't. I don't want them to, like, have to open their heart through, like, meditation. That is like, telling them the love is already inside of you. Just connect to it, please. That's what I want. Yeah.
- [51:24]
A
I think you'd fix world issues with maybe.
- [51:27]
B
Though I actually do probably think so.
- [51:30]
A
I think everyone in the whole world should see your show and I have a feeling they will at some point. I have a feeling it will be available for people to see. I hope so, because I think everyone needs to see it. It's so good. Is there anything else you want to plug?
- [51:44]
B
So I'm gonna be in Edinburgh doing my show and then I'm gonna go on tour in the uk. My first tour. I never did that. I'm excited.
- [51:54]
A
Europe as well. Could you please come to Europe as well?
- [51:56]
B
Yes, I'm definitely going.
- [51:57]
A
Yes.
- [51:57]
B
Yeah, I can't wait. I'll be in Europe probably in the. In the spring.
- [52:02]
A
Oh, I'm so happy about that. And you're on all of the social media.
- [52:05]
B
I am basically on Instagram.
- [52:06]
A
You're basically. It's on Instagram.
- [52:08]
B
Yeah.
- [52:08]
A
Amazing. Thank you. We're gonna do a little extra, extra fun bit for Patreon now just for the special, special books. But thank you for doing this one.
- [52:16]
B
Of course. Thank you, guys. All the best to you and your. And your family.
- [52:22]
A
Thank you so much for listening to that episode. If you want some sweet, sweet, sweet, special extra bonus content, do go and sign up to Patreon or Substack and within the week you'll get an extra fun bonus episode. And there's so much fun. And there are so much. Did I mention fun? Go to Patreon or Substack. The links are in the show notes. And I'll see you on tour. I'll be all over the place. The Edinburgh Fringe, Soho Theater, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Netherlands and all over the uk. And more dates will be announced soon. Please sign up for my newsletter. The link is also in the show notes and just big thank you. Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for telling people about the podcast. It's completely self produced. I don't know if I've mentioned it, but I love you very much and thank you for listening and I will speak to you again soon. Thank you so much. Bye. Here's the end jingle made by me.